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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 3 Dec 1947

Vol. 109 No. 3

Scéim Aoisliúntas na Múinteoirí Scoile Náisiúnta (Leasú), 1947. National School Teachers' Superannuation (Amendment) Scheme, 1947.

Tairgim:—

Go ndaingneofar Scéim Aoisliúntas na Múinteoirí Scoile Náisiúnta (Leasú), 1947, a rinne an tAire Oideachais le toiliú an Aire Airgeadais faoi Acht Aoisliúntais na Múinteoirí, 1928 (Uimh. 32 de 1928).

That the National School Teachers' Superannuation (A m e n d m e n t) Scheme, 1947, made by the Minister for Education with the consent of the Minister for Finance under the Teachers' Superannuation Act, 1928 (No. 32 of 1928), be confirmed.

Is é fáth na scéime seo socrú a dhéanamh maidir le háireamh pinsean agus aisce i gcásanna áirithe a tharla de bharr na hÉigeandála, stailc na múinteoirí, agus lán-deontas-i-gcabhair a thabhairt do Scoileanna Náisiúnta na Scol Ceartúcháin agus na Scol Saothair; sin agus socrú a dhéanamh chun athrú a chur ar an mbun-mhodh atá ann le háireamh a dhéanamh ar an meán-tuarastal bliantúil i gcóir críocha aoisliúntas agus chun leasú a dhéanamh ar an gcóid atá ann fá láthair maidir le pointí áirithe.

O thaobh na hÉigeandála tá socrú déanta i Mír 5 den Scéim go n-áireofar mar sheirbhís in pinsin i gcóir críocha na Príomh-Scéime seirbhís a thug múinteoir cáilithe sna Fórsaí Cosanta i rith na tréimhse ón 2ú lá de Mheán Fómhair, 1939, go dtí an 11ú lá de Bhealtaine, 1945. Má tharla, ar chríochnú a sheirbhíse san arm, go raibh sé deacair ar mhúinteoir post fháil mar mhúinteoir scoile náisiúnta, féadfar an t-achar a chaith sé ag lorg poist a áireamh mar sheirbhís inphinsin. Ní áireofar, áfach, ina leithéid sin de chás, tréimhse is faide ná trí mhí. Más rud é, le linn dó a bheith san arm, go raibh múinteoir eile ar fostú aige mar ionadaí, beidh seirbhís an mhúinteora ionaid inphinsin, freisin.

Cinntítear i Mír 10 go n-áireofar i gcóir pinsin suim iomlán an Bhónais Éigeandála a híocadh le múinteoirí náisiúnta a bhí, freisin, ina mbunmháistrí poist. Go dtí an lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946, ba as an Vóta i gcóir Poist agus Telegrafa a híoctaí cuid den bhónas seo. As an Vóta i gcóir an Bhun-Oideachais a híoctaí an chuid eile. Fán gcóid atá ann fá láthair ní féidir pinsean múinteora a áireamh ach ar an íocaíocht a fuair sé as an Vóta i gcóir an Bhun-Oideachais. Cinntítear sa leasú seo go n-áireofar i gcóir pinsin an íocaíocht a fuair sé mar mhúinteoir náisiúnta agus suim iomlán an Bhónais Éigeandála don tréimhse go dtí an lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946, is cuma cia acu an Roinn Oideachais nó an Roinn Poist agus Telegrafa d'íoc an bónas leis. Níl aon deacracht ag baint leis an mBónas Éigeandála a híocadh tar éis an lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946, mar socraíodh gurb i an Roinn seo agamsa a díocfadh iomlán an bhónais ón dáta sin go dtí an 31ú lá de Dheireadh Fómhair, 1946, trá a dtáinig na scálaí nua tuarastail i bhfeidhm agus ar cuireadh ar ceal an Bónas Éigeandála a bhí iníoctha leis na Múinteoirí Náisiúnta. Tá socrú déanta sa leasú maidir le múinteoirí atá imithe amach cheana ar pinsean.

O thaobh stailc na múinteoirí tá socrú déanta i Mír 6 i gcás múinteora a fuair bás le linn dó a bheith ar stailc. Ina leithéid sin de chás beidh ionadaithe pearsanta an mhúinteora mhairbh i dteideal an aisce bháis atá ag dul, fá na Scéimeanna Aoisliúntas, do mhúinteoir a bhí ar fostú le linn dó bás d'fháil. Tá socrú déanta i Mír 7 i gcóir ban-mhúinteoir a phós le linn di a bheith ar stailc. Beidh a leithéid i dteideal an aisce phósta atá ag dul fá na Scéimeanna Aoisliúntas, do mhúinteoir a bhí ar fostú le linn pósadh di.

Sa mblian 1941 a tugadh cabhair den chéad uair do na Scoileanna Ceartúcháin agus do na Scoileanna Saothair as an Vóta i gcóir an Bhun-Oideachais, ach níor tugadh dóibh, an trá sin, an chabhair go hiomlán a bheirtear do na gná-bhunscoileanna. Is é an fáth ar reachtaíodh Scéim Aoisliúntas na bliana 1942 chun cearta pinsin a thabhairt do mhúinteoirí tuata a bhí ar fostaíocht sna scoileanna úd maidir leis an tréimhse seirbhíse a bhú tugtha acu roimh an mbliain 1941 agus i ndiaidh na bliana sin. Ón lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946, ámh, tá na scoileanna seo ar aondul leis na gná-bhunscoileanna. Ar an abhar sin, bíonn an tseirbhís a bheirtear iontu inphinsin fán ngná-chóid. Fágann sin nach bhfuil riachtanas feasta le Scéim na bliana 1942 i gcás seirbhíse a tugadh tar éis an lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946, agus níonn Mír 8 athghairm uirthi féin dá réir.

Gná-bhunscoileanna atá fá stiúradh na n-ord crábhaidh, tá sé de roghain acu cabhair ón Stát fháil do réir bun-mhodha na caipitíochta, .i. deontas do réir an aonaid de ghná-thinnrimh, sin nó do réir bun-mhodha na haicmíochta. Sa dara cás seo íocann an Roinn Oideachais a thuarastal pearsanta le gach ball den fhoirinn. Nuair a cuireadh na scoileanna ceartúcháin agus na scoileanna saothair ar aonchéim leis na gná-bhunscoileanna ón lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946, hiarradh ar na stiúrthóirí roghain a dhéanamh idir an dá mhodha íocaíochta. Sna cásanna ina ndearna na stiúrthóirí roghain de mhodh na haicmíochta is inphinsin fá na Scéimeanna atá ann fá láthair an tseirbhís a chuir baill den ord isteach mar mhúinteoirí ar an bhfoirinn aitheanta ón lú lá d'Aibreán, 1946. Ach ní foláir socrú fá leith a dhéanamh lena chinntú go mbeadh an chreidiúint chéanna i gcóir pinsin le fáil acu agus atá le fáil ag múinteoirí tuata ar son seirbhíse a thugadar i Scoileanna Ceartúcháin agus i Scoileanna Saothair roimh an dáta sin. Tá an socrú sin déanta i Mír 9.

(a) Tá socrú déanta i Mír 11 chun athrú a chur ar an tréimhse tri mblian as a mbaintear leas ag áireamh an mhean-tuarastail bliantúil i gcóir pinsin agus i gcóir aisce pósta agus aisce báis. Go dtí seo ba é an 31 ú lá den Mhárta a bhí ann roimh ré ba chríoch don tréimhse trí mblian sin i ngach cás, ach as seo amach beidh críoch ar an tréimhse an lá deireannach den cheathrú, más é sin an lá a théas an múinteoir ar pinsean, a phósas an múinteoir nó a gheobhas an múinteoir bás.

Munar ar an dáta sin a tharlas aon cheann de na neithe úd beidh deireadh na tréimhse ann an lá deiridh den cheathrú a bhí ann roimhe sin. I ngeall air sin beidh méadú, tríd is tríd, ar an meán-tuarastal bliantúil.

(b) Ar theacht i bhfeidhm do na scálaí nua tuarastail ar an 31ú lá de Dheireadh Fómhair, 1946, múinteoirí ar bith a bhí le dhul ar pinsean fán teora aoise roimh an 31ú lá de Mhí na Nollag, 1947, ceadaíodh dóibh leanacht orthu sa tseirbhís go dtí an dáta sin. Do réir an tsocruithe atá déanta sa mír seo is ar an meán-tuarastal a fuaireadar i rith na dtrí mblian dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhí na Nollag, 1947, a háireofar a bpinsean. Dá réir sin beidh tréimhse 14 mhí acu ar na scálaí feabhsaithe fá chóir crícheanna pinsin. Ina theannta sin, múinteoirí a rachas ar pinsiún fán teora aoise i rith an dá bhlian seo ag teacht beidh síneadh ar an tréimhse seirbhíse i gcóir pinsin a bheas acu ar na scálá arda. Iad seo a rachas ar pinsean an 31ú lá de Mhí na Nollag, 1949, nó am ar bith ina dhiaidh sin is ar an meán-tuarastal a fuaireadar i rith trí mblian iomlán ar na scálaí nua a haireofar a bpinsean. Marach an socrú atá déanta sa mír seo ní bheadh sin amhlaidh go dtí an lú lá d'Aibreán, 1950. An t-athrú a nítear ar mhodh áirimh an mheán-tuarastail bhliantúil rachaidh sé chun tairbhe, freisin, dóibh seo a bheas i dteideal aisce pósta nó aisce báis.

Níl aon mhór-thábhacht i Míreann 12 agus 13. I ngeall ar an nganntán múinteoirí a bhí ann le blianta gairide bíonn cásanna ann agus iarrann an bainisteoir ar mhúinteoir a bhí ar pinsean a theacht ar ais ag teagasc i rith tréimhse áirithe nó go gceaptar múinteoir seasmhach. Ina leithéidí sin de chásanna stadann pinsean an mhúinteora agus bheirtear pinsean as an nua dhó ar chríochnú a sheirbhíse shealadaí. Tharlódh go mbeadh an pinsean as an nua so níos lú ná an pinsean tosaigh agus is é is aidhm le hAlt a 12 ná féachaint chuige nach dtarlóidh amhlaidh. Tá socrú déanta i Mír 13 chun an pinsean a chur fionraí nuair nach mó ná trí mhí an tréimhse ath-fhostuaithe agus nach gcuireann sé isteach ar shuim an phinsin. Go dtí seo níorbh fholáir ar dtús an pinsean a chur ar ceal agus pinsean nua den tsuim chéanna a dheonadh arís.

Fá na scéimeanna atá ann fá láthair ní foláir an pinsean a íoc uair sa mí ach ba mhaith an rud é dá mb'fhéidir é íoc an trá a measfaí ab fheiliúnaí ina chóir ó am go ham. Bheirtear cumhacht chuige sin i Mír 14.

Do hiarradh orm i roinnt cás pinsean a íoc fá dhó sa mí agus mar adúirt mé ar ócáid eile tá mé toilteanach an moladh a bhreithniú má bheirtear fianaise dhom go bhfuil aon éileamh mór go ndéanfainn amhlaidh.

Chun freastal ar chás fá leith cruatain a cuireadh Mír 15 isteach. Chuir a lán daoine an cás os mo chomhair. Is é an cás é, ban-mhúinteoir a rugadh sa mbliain 1877, agus a thug seirbhís leanúnach i Scoil Saothair ón mbliain 1913, agus a bhí ag múineadh roimhe sin féin. Thug Scéim Aoisliúntas na bliana 1942 creidiúint fá chóir pinsin dá leithéid sin i gcás seirbhíse a tugadh go dtí an bhliain 1941, ach, de bhrí nár fheagair an múinteoir áirithe seo don tsainmhíniú ar "mhúinteoir" atá ag gabháil leis an bPríomh-Scéim ní raibh sí i dteideal pinsin. Cuirfear an scéal ina cheart sa mír seo. Is éard atá ar intinn a dhéanamh aitheantas mar "mhúinteoir" a thabhairt di go foirmiúil ar feadh tréimhse gairid agus ansin í a chur ar pinsean ar an bpointe cuí.

Ní mheasaim go bhfuil aon abhair conspóide sna moltaí seo agus iarraim ar an Dáil an rún a rith go foirmiúil ag daingniú na Scéime.

I want to raise a question on this pension scheme. Deputies will observe that this scheme is designed largely to provide for non-recurring anomalies which it is deemed expedient to clear up. In addition to that, there are provisions of a permanent character. I am a great believer in letting justice be done, and nothing is more exasperating to the average individual than to have anomalies redressed, but when an exactly similar case presents itself that it should be excluded from redress. I recently directed the attention of the Minister for Education to such a situation, the facts of which are these: a young girl presented herself for the qualifying examination for the position of junior assistant mistress, and at the time she undertook the examination Euclid and geometry were compulsory subjects. Well, she did not take Euclid and geometry and so she was not awarded the necessary certificate to qualify her to serve as a junior assistant mistress. Very shortly after she took the examination Euclid and geometry ceased to be obligatory.

If she had done her examination 12 or 18 months later she would have qualified. In these circumstances, the manager of the school inquired of a person whom he believed to be well informed and was told that in all human probability the Minister would waive the point about lack of qualification for the failure to take Euclid and algebra inasmuch as nobody was now required to take these two subjects.

Will the Deputy say to what section of this scheme his remarks relate? This scheme relates to continuous services in respect of pensionable service being broken by the teachers' strike. Some Deputies seem to misunderstand the scheme. I think that is the whole idea.

It goes further than that, Sir.

Will the Deputy state to what portion of the scheme his remarks relate?

It seeks to remove anomalies. Paragraph (7) deals with the teacher who married while on strike.

It still relates to pension.

The nuns did not go on strike. There is an elaborate provision to look after nuns' pensions.

Can the Deputy relate his remarks about examinations to this scheme?

This scheme relates to pensions. My remarks relate to this lady's right to pension.

I did not understand that.

Very well. The manager of the school referred to a person whom he believed to be a knowledgeable person. This person said the Minister would probably waive the point. He therefore appointed the girl to be a junior assistant mistress in the school. No sooner was she appointed than reference was made to the Department. After some time the Department said they would not waive the point. Then began one of these interminable wrangles and tangles. The parish priest went, the bishop went, but the Minister remained firm in his decision. For almost nine years this girl taught in the school and, according to the principal's report, taught extremely well. At the end of nine years, seeing she never had any salary during the whole period of her operations, she retired from the school. An application was then made to the Minister to give her some compensation or pension. That was turned down on the grounds that she had no position in the school at all. Very well. Not 30 miles away from that school there was a junior assistant mistress. She went in for an examination in Irish and she got 2 per cent. The Minister, apparently, gave her every opportunity to qualify. The best she could do was to get 2 per cent. so he withdrew recognition and said she was not qualified to teach as a junior assistant mistress. Her ladyship then staged a sit-down strike. Devil out she would go at all. Being of a strong-minded disposition, for a protracted period she sat in the school without any pupil at all. After three or four years, or maybe longer, she struck oil. She was not as unfortunate as the lady who taught for nine years because, steaming across the Border, there came a well-known and enthusiastic supporter of the Government who said that his experience was that if you shouted loud enough the Minister for Education became a more reasonable man. He said he would go down to Marlborough Street——

The Deputy is across the Border now with regard to relevancy.

This lady got a pension.

This scheme concerns people whose pension rights were affected as a result of their pensionable service being broken by the teachers' strike.

My submission, Sir, is that the lady who had nobody to speak on her behalf, who spent nine years teaching, who did not have a Boanerges from the North to come and speak for her, is entitled to the same benefits as the lady who had. All I am asking is that in this pension scheme a provision will be inserted whereby any person who comes within the general description of the circumstances so eloquently advocated by the Boanerges from the North will be entitled to the same benefits. Is that an unreasonable request? Is it not an anachronism that one lady who has an advocate who can bellow like a bull is to have a pension while another lady, who has not, has to do without it? I do not live anywhere near the neighbourhood concerned. The only persons I know in this connection are the manager who appointed the lady to work nine years and the Boanerges from the North. All I want is justice. If the lady who sat for five years unqualified because she only got 2 per cent. in Irish is to have compensation, surely to God the girl who had all the qualifications that a junior assistant mistress now requires and who taught, according to the principal of her school, excellently for nine years, who went in, not because she thrust her way in but because she and the manager who appointed her believed that in all the circumstances recognition would be forthcoming and who continued to hope the recognition would be forthcoming and whose hope that recognition would be forthcoming was sponsored not only by her manager but also by the bishop of the diocese, ought to get no more consideration, but no less consideration, than the lady who knew she was not qualified, who was asked to leave the school but who would not leave the school, and who, for some time, had no pupils in the school but staged a sit-down strike. Fiat justitia. I confidently look to the Minister for Education to deal as liberally and as justly with the girl whose case was advocated by no one more formidable than the manager and the Bishop as he did with the case which was presented to him by the Boanerges from the North who had no direct interest in the matter at all except his professed ability to put behaviour on Deputy Derrig, the Minister for Education.

Let me say quite frankly that my experience of the Department of Education has been that an appeal for justice and fair play is more usually listened to in that Department than are blustering and threats. I would find it very hard to believe that the woman whose case was sustained by blustering and threats would be more liberally dealt with than the woman who depends on nothing but the bare justice of the case she makes.

Major de Valera

As this is an amending scheme, to provide for cases which were omitted, I think I am in order in asking the Minister to give attention to what I conceive has been an omission. I can give him the full names and other details subsequently. Other people in other parts of the country of whom I have no knowledge may also be affected in the same way as the case to which I shall refer. Briefly the facts are as follows—

Will some Deputy point out to me whether there is any provision in this Bill which does not relate to continuation of services?

Paragraph 15, Sir.

Major de Valera

I understand, a Chinn Comhairle, that this is an amendment to a pensions scheme. The pensions scheme covers generally the whole question of pensions. I would, however, ask the Minister to consider——

Major de Valera

I think, if the Minister has not incorporated in the amendment certain things which Deputies wish to have included, it is proper to raise such matters particularly when they are generally cognate to matters already raised by other Deputies.

Very well. You may proceed. With all respect to Deputy Dillon, I would not take him as necessarily in order always.

Oh, always, Sir, when you direct my attention to it.

Major de Valera

The case I wish to mention is a simple one. Certain junior assistant mistresses were employed in convent schools in positions which were not pensionable and which carried no pension rights. Subsequent to the founding of this State these people were brought in under a pension scheme with certain salary adjustments. In fact, from the time they were included under that scheme, they remained for a period of almost ten years on the same salary scale. Their salaries were not brought up to the level of the other teachers but there was an immediate deduction made from them in respect of pension. When they came to pensionable age only a portion of their service was taken into consideration. Now, there are only a few such teachers involved and I think it would be well to remove the existing anomaly. The case made against them is that they were for such a long period in unpensionable service. The answer to that is that their remuneration was at a lower rate and for that reason they might be said to have constructively paid into a pension fund because of their lower salary scale, though in actual fact they did not so contribute. There is one case of a lady of 38 years' service who is now being pensioned on the basis of 20 years' service. I think the position should be examined by the Minister in view of the amendment contemplated.

I wish to draw attention to the fact that the Minister spoke in Irish. Now, you, Sir, are responsible for the regulation of the House. There are some of us who do not speak Irish. A statement was issued in English to a privileged few and I think it is unfair to the rest of us that this privileged few should be supplied with the document in advance. I would ask that, in future, if a statement is going to be given it should be given to every member of the House because every member is entitled to the same privileges. I do not know a word of Irish.

Mo náire thu!

The Deputy must understand that either Irish or English may be spoken here. The Minister is not obliged to give any translation; neither is anybody else. It has been the custom to supply Leaders of Parties with translations in English of speeches which are delivered in Irish.

That is what I wish to protest against. I sit here and I wish to listen carefully to this scheme and to this amendment, which is most essential. A statement is read out by the Minister in Irish. Certain privileged members get a copy of that statement in English. I do not. I want to know the reason why. I am elected to represent a certain area in the same way as other members and I claim the same rights. I do not ask for privileges.

I feel a good deal of sympathy with what Deputy Byrne has said.

The Chair understands the position, but I have told the Deputy what the custom is.

Would it be possible for the members who wish to get such a statement in English to give their names to either the Chair or the office? Surely, it should then be possible to print or type sufficient copies of such a statement in English for those Deputies who wish to have it.

The Deputy's remarks will be noted.

That is all I want — consideration in the future. I directed my protest, Sir, on a point of order. Might I now ask the Minister if, in an amending scheme like this, consideration should not be given to those very elderly teachers who were not recognised up to 15 or 20 years ago? I have in mind a former member of this House, who was responsible in a large measure for the establishment of the House and who took a very active part in the building up of the State. He was only recognised some 20 years ago. He is about to go out on pension after a loyal service of 50 years' duration. His pension will amount to 30/- per week. I appeal to the Minister for consideration in cases such as his.

We had a scheme in 1934 under which, I think, the class to which Deputy Byrne has referred would come. These people were given two-thirds credit for previous recognised and paid service.

The position in these schools which came definitely under the Department of Education in 1925 is being considered and it is probable that a scheme will be introduced dealing with certain matters which have arisen, including those referred to here to-day. The position is being examined sympathetically. But I have to secure the sanction of the Department of Finance. If sanction is accorded we shall probably have an amending scheme dealing with such cases.

The particular scheme now before us deals with matters arising out of the emergency — teachers who were members of the Defence Forces, teachers who were sub-postmasters, teachers who married or died while on strike, and industrial school teachers. The latter are brought in in order to ensure that those who were teaching in what are called classification schools will receive exactly the same treatment as teachers in capitation schools. In other words, members of Orders in industrial schools now fully recognised as national schools will receive precisely the same treatment in their pension rights as teachers in other schools.

In regard to Deputy de Valera's point, the question of junior assistant mistresses does not, therefore, arise under this scheme. This scheme deals only with the specific matters to which I have referred.

You do not refer to a specific matter in paragraph 15?

I do not think Deputy Dillon is correct in suggesting that under paragraph 15, which deals with the particular case of an industrial school teacher excluded by reason of the fact that she did not come under the legal definition of teacher, the terms of paragraph 15 can be stretched so as to include all classes. These teachers were awarded pension rights in 1934 and to raise that question means opening up the whole question of teachers' pensions generally.

I must say that I do not seem to be familiar with or I cannot recollect the particular case that Deputy Dillon referred to. I think that it was not a case, as he stated and as he believes, that some teacher, through bluster and threats by some person, succeeded in getting certain advantages. I think it was probably remuneration for service which the teacher could argue had been given. In this amending scheme, we are dealing with superannuation. The superannuation rules are laid down by statute. The pensions awarded are subject to examination by the Comptroller and Auditor-General. The rules are published and if, at any time, a teacher feels that he or she is being wrongfully excluded, the teacher should get in touch with the Department. I do not think, however, that that is what happened in this case. I have experience of a number of cases of that kind, and I think that what probably happened is that a teacher remained on in a school, we will say, after a certain date and the Department could, on technical grounds, have refused to pay the teacher beyond that date. We would be very reluctant indeed to admit that, having fixed a certain date for the retirement of the teacher, she would be paid beyond that date. If it were a case of a pension, of course we need not pay her a pension beyond the retiring age of 60 or 65, whatever it might be. If it is a case of service that is claimed to have been rendered and if there is a prima facie case that one teacher in somewhat similar circumstances succeeded in getting payment for a period of service where another one was refused, I will certainly go into the matter, but I think there must be other considerations in question.

That is fair enough.

Will the Minister say who is the particular individual covered by paragraph 15?

Kate O'Callaghan, a teacher in the Passage West Industrial School.

Question put and agreed to.
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