Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Dec 1947

Vol. 109 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Statutory Instruments Bill, 1947—From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Boland)

I move: That the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1.

SECTION 2.

Sub-section (2) deleted and the following sub-section substituted:—

(2) (a) If the Attorney-General certifies in writing that, in his opinion, a particular person or body is an authority of the class mentioned in sub-paragraph (v) of paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) of this section, such person or body shall be deemed, for the purposes of the said sub-section (1), to be an authority of that class.

(b) If the Attorney-General certifies in writing that, in his opinion, statutory instruments of a particular class (defined in such manner and by reference to such things as the Attorney-General thinks proper) are of the character described in sub-paragraph (ii) of paragraph (c) of sub-section (1) of this section, such statutory instruments shall be deemed, for the purposes of the said sub-section (1), to be statutory instruments of that character.

During the passage of this Bill through the House there was some criticism about sub-section (2) of Section 2 on the ground that it might be held to be unconstitutional although Deputy MacBride was not able to say definitely that it was. I have not been able to confirm that it was but nevertheless I am bringing in this amendment. Under the amendment the Attorney-General may certify that a particular person or body empowered to make a statutory instrument is an authority of the class mentioned in sub-paragraph (v) of Section 2 (1) (b) or that statutory instruments of a particular class are of the character described in sub-paragraph (ii) of Section 2 (1) (c). These new provisions, apart from the fact that they may be regarded as unobjectionable on any constitutional grounds, have the positive advantage that they will enable the Attorney-General to take action without having to wait for a question to be raised. For example, if a particular body or person considers itself not bound by the provisions of the Act or tries to evade the Act, the Attorney-General, if he considers it desirable and proper to do so, may give his certificate, and the person or body concerned must thereafter comply with the obligatory provision of the Act in regard to the printing, publishing, and so forth of its statutory instruments. I think that is an improvement on the section as it was.

Mr. MacBride

I have not got the Bill in front of me but, so far as I remember from the general objections I raised, this amendment does seem to remedy the position. I take it the Minister has had the whole Bill examined to ensure that the amendments he has inserted do not upset other sections?

Mr. Boland

I have done that.

Question agreed to.

Mr. Boland

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:—

At the end of the section the following sub-section inserted:—

(5) (a) Every certificate or direction given by the Attorney-General under this section shall be published in the Iris Oifigiúil.

(b) Prima facie evidence of any certificate or direction given by the Attorney-General under this section may be given by the production of a copy of the Iris Oifigiúil purporting to contain such certificate or direction.

This amendment proposes that any certificate or direction given by the Attorney-General under Section 2 shall be published in Irish Oifigiúil and that prima facie evidence of the certificate or direction may be given by producduction of a copy of the Iris Oifigiúil containing the copy of the certificate or direction. This is an obviously desirable provision which will enable any interested bodies or persons to keep themselves advised as to the classes of instruments that, consequent on any action taken by the Attorney-General, are or are not, as the case may be, liable to be printed, published, etc., in accordance with the Act. I think it is desirable that this should be so. It is consequential on the other.

Question agreed to.

Mr. Boland

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:—

SECTION 3, SUBSECTION (1).

In page 3, Section 3, subsection (1), before paragraph (a), line 44, to insert the following paragraph:—

(a) within seven days after the making thereof, a copy thereof shall be sent to each of the following, namely, the National Library of Ireland, the Law Library, Four Courts, Dublin, the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland, the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, the Cork Chamber of Commerce, the Limerick Chamber of Commerce, the Waterford Chamber of Commerce and the Galway Chamber of Commerce,

This is an amendment to Section 3 again. It was raised in the Seanad where it was stipulated that specific notice of these Orders should be given to interested parties who might not normally have the Orders available to them. A list of the places to which these should be sent is given. They are the National Library, the Law Library, Four Courts, the Incorporated Law Society Library and the Chambers of Commerce of Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway.

Mr. McMenamin

Is that before publication?

Mr. Boland

No. It is merely for the purpose of having copies of such Orders available to interested parties as early as possible. The list of places mentioned is for the purpose of notifying such parties where they may peruse the Orders. A Deputy would know that such an Order was being made and he could, if he so desired, move for its annulment. An ordinary member of the public might be interested in the annulment of an Order, if he were aware that such an Order were being made, but the possibility is that he might not be so aware. This will enable interested parties to have a better chance than there is at present of finding out what Orders are being made.

Mr. McMenamin

Will the Order be printed and for sale in the ordinary way?

Mr. Boland

Certainly. This is merely something additional.

Mr. Norton

It will be published in Iris Oifigiúil as well.

Mr. Boland

It will. There is an interval before its publication in Iris Oifigiúil of about two months. Some of these Orders take effect almost immediately. They are, of course, broadcast and published in the Press. A Prices Order, for instance, might take effect before it could be printed in Iris Oifigiúil. This is an extra provision to make known to the public where these Orders may be obtained.

Mr. MacBride

Would the Minister also include the King's Inns Law Library? It is a law school which is always open while the other libraries are closed during the summer months or during a holiday period.

Mr. Boland

I do not know if we can do that now.

An Leas-Cheann Chomhairle

It would mean going back to the Seanad again.

Mr. Boland

One can be sent without actually putting it into the Bill. It is scarcely worth while going back to the Seanad.

Mr. MacBride

I suppose the Minister has inquired whether the chambers of commerce will be prepared to grant facilities?

Mr. Boland

Indeed I have not. I anticipate they will not be too pleased with all the Orders they will get; but the Seanad insisted upon it. There are so many of these Orders I think they will become a nuisance before very long.

General MacEoin

The Minister is not taking any chance of refusing anybody anything. He will give them the sun, moon and stars if they ask for them.

Mr. Boland

No. It is a reasonable request and I did not refuse it. That is all.

Question agreed to.

Mr. Boland

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:—

SECTION 3, SUB-SECTION (3).

2. In page 4, Section 3 (3), to delete paragraph (b), lines 6-9, and substitute the following paragraph:—

(b) the prosecutor does not prove that, at the date of the alleged contravention, notice of the making of the said statutory instrument had been published in the Iris Oifigiúil,

The object of this amendment is to transfer to the prosecutor the onus of proof on the question whether notice of the making of a statutory instrument, to which the Act primarily applies, had been published in Iris Oifigiúil. We had a long debate in the Seanad on this matter and I resisted for a long time. Eventually I was convinced that there was some point in it. We are merely substituting this for the existing clause (b).

Mr. MacBride

Does it relieve the prosecution the duty of proving that the Order was made?

Mr. Boland

No. There is an extra defence given to the defendant and it was put up in the Seanad that that required him to prove something. I maintained that it was doing no such thing. It was merely giving him an extra line of defence if he wished to take it. The Seanad, however, insisted that it was putting the onus on him so I agreed in the end that the onus would be put on the prosecution as well as the other provisions. We must take all reasonable steps to bring to the notice of the people concerned that the Order has been made.

Question agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 4 reported and agreed to.

Ordered that Seanad Éireann be notified accordingly.