Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Feb 1949

Vol. 114 No. 2

Council of Education—Motion.

Mr. Palmer

I beg to move the motion standing in my name:

That Dáil Eireann is of opinion that a council of education should be established as a permanent advisory body to the Minister for Education.

For years past the members of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, through its branches, its committees and its congresses, have consistently demanded the establishment of a council of education. On one or two former occasions, when a motion similar to this was moved, members of the Parties now forming the inter-Party Government were at all times in favour of the setting up of such a council. It was only the present Opposition Party, including the ex-Minister for Education, Mr. Derrig, who always vehemently opposed the setting up of such a council. I wonder, now that they are in opposition, what their attitude will be on this occasion.

Our demands up to this have been for a body which would act simply in an advisory capacity—a body without any executive power whatsoever. Recently we have had some examples of Ministers setting up such bodies. The Minister for Health has set up a Health Council; the Minister for Local Government has set up a Housing Board; so, likewise, have the Ministers for Industry and Commerce and Social Welfare set up bodies to advise and assist them in their endeavours to carry out efficiently the various problems confronting their Departments.

It now remains for the Minister for Education to set up such a council as is proposed in this motion. The Minister has already stated, both in the House and at the Teachers' Congress last Easter, that he would make provision for the setting up of a council of edution. The fact that I am moving this motion does not mean that I doubt in the slightest degree that the promise he then gave will not be implemented. I am perfectly certain—and so also are the members of our organisation—that the Minister will honour his word.

The idea underlying this motion is that this council of education would be representative of the various bodies who have the interests of education at heart. I shall deal first of all with the managers. Some managers have an idea that if such a council were set up it might interfere in some way with the present managerial system. I can assure the House that it never was the intention of the Irish National Teachers' Organisation that any such interference should take place. I am satisfied that if this body is set up, instead of being in opposition to the managerial system, it will perhaps be of assistance to the managers in enabling them to carry out their duties in the future more easily and more efficiently than in the past. We realise that managers have real difficulties connected with the upkeep of their schools and so forth. Perhaps this council would be in a position to devise means by which that could be done more effectively. Then there would be representatives of the teachers' organisations—not only the members of the Organisation of Primary Teachers but also the Organisation of Secondary Teachers. There would be of course, representatives of the Department of Education. All these bodies are organised. It is quite obvious that such organisations would choose the members they wish to represent them on the council of education. The Minister, of course, would select those from the Department of Education. There may be some difficulty about selecting representatives of the parents because they are not organised. However, I am sure that all difficulties in that respect can be easily overcome. I am sure the Minister himself could perhaps devise some means in consultation with the organised bodies that I have mentioned. I would suggest to the Minister, however, that whoever selects the parents will ensure that they will be representative of parents in the municipal, urban and rural areas. I would make a further stipulation that such parents as would be represented on this council of education would be those who would have children in attendance at school.

The Minister has already intimated his intention of setting up this council. There is, therefore, no need for me to delay the House at any length because I feel perfectly certain that the motion should be accepted unanimously. I would ask the Minister to carry out his promise at the earliest possible moment. This is really the one promise that he has made to the teachers which has not already been put into operation. I hope that before he attends the Teachers' Conference in Arklow next Easter this council of education will be set up. All his promises will then be fulfilled. I shall, perhaps, ask him about further demands which I am sure he will do his best to put into operation. We teachers have found him at all times since his appointment as Minister the best Minister for Education that this country has had, the best Minister since the establishment of our native Government.

Mr. Sweetman

Deputy Palmer in proposing this motion spoke to it from the point of view, from the knowledge of a person interested in the profession. I want to deal with it in an entirely different way. One of the particular reasons why I am anxious that a council of education should be set up is because I do not consider myself in any way qualified to advise the Minister on how the problems can be solved. It is because I think that there are others in this House in the same position as I am that I think it is entirely desirable that there should be a council away and apart from politics in the ordinary sense of the term, away and apart from Party adherents. I think that a council would be in a position to bring to the assistance of whatever Minister may be in power at a particular time that body of specialised knowledge in regard to the problems that face us. Anyone who has any experience in interviewing and selecting people for jobs in recent years—it is not only my experience, I have discussed it with others and they have told me the same—will find that unfortunately the standard of education in regard to the ordinary matters of reading, writing, spelling and of ordinary arithmetic is far from what it should be in regard to the ordinary day to day work that is required in any ordinary office. Similarly, for many years we are likely to be primarily an agricultural country and one of the most amazing things about us in that position is the great lack of real facilities that there are in regard to agricultural education. There is another problem. Any time anyone mentioned this problem there used to be a torrent of abuse and one was accused of being entirely anti-national for mentioning it. I refer to the problem of teaching through the medium of Irish. These are all problems that would be far better discussed away from the Party atmosphere of this House. They are problems that are undoubtedly there and they are problems that must be solved. Any Minister who had the advice of a competent advisory body able to give him their views on these problems would be very well strengthened in whatever proposals he might from time to time wish to put before this House. It is not suggested at all that this council of education should take from the powers of the Oireachtas. It is suggested that it would be an advisory body to advise the Minister on the proposals that he wished to bring before the Oireachtas. Neither is it suggested that it would have any executive or administrative powers. These powers would and must in the ordinary nature of things be left to the Minister and the Department operating under him. One of the things that this Government made quite clear when it was being set up was that they felt they had not got all the knowledge in the country, that they were open to advice and that they were open to get help wherever help could be produced. One of the best ways in which that can be done is through advisory councils in every shape and form.

It is not a new idea that there should be a council of education. It was stated at some length and with some considerable force in the report of the Vocational Organisation. Even that was not the first time it was stated. In the report of the Vocational Organisation the view was summarised somewhat succinctly. The view was stated with great stress that the members of that commission recommended the establishment of a council as a permanent institution, an institution that was going to act in an advisory capacity to the Minister and yet acting in that capacity would have, so to speak, the responsibility attached to the fact that it was accredited as such a body. It would be able, in a better way than perhaps any political Party or any political Minister or the head of any Department, to get the ready cooperation of all concerned in education to make fully effective the national educational policy that the Government of the day might want to put into operation and that the Government of the day would receive sanction for from this House. I have no doubt whatever that from the way in which the Minister for Education has started on the round on which he commenced tomorrow year he is going to bring to this problem the same energy, the same clear thinking as he has brought to the other problems with regard to education about which we have heard during the past year.

While Deputy Palmer, as I say, proposed the motion from the point of view of a person who knew something about the problem from the inside, it is precisely because I and others like me know that there is a problem there but do not know sufficient about the matter to be able ourselves to propose the solution that we think it desirable that there should be a council like this to assist the Minister in the task he has undertaken of reviewing our whole educational position and making certain that the children who will go out into the world in the years to come will go out better equipped mentally, through education, to take their places there and better equipped, as a result, to give to the country the prosperity, the hope and the culture which we all of us would wish it to have in the days that lie ahead.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

I think I am correct in saying that this matter was one of the matters on which the various parties supporting the Inter-Party Government found they were able to agree without any hesitation and in a very short space of time, when they drafted the ten-point programme at the time this Government was established. I am not surprised that the establishment of a council of education should have occupied a prominent place amongst those ten points, because, for one reason or another, the whole question of education has been agitating the public mind for many years back and agitating the public mind in a way which has compelled interest not only from those directly concerned in teachers' organisations, from school managers and even from those concerned from the point of view of the spiritual welfare of the pupils, but from the ordinary parent, the ordinary person who took no interest in politics. One of the reasons for that undoubtedly was the very tragic teachers' strike which took place when Deputy Derrig was Minister for Education. I believed, at the time that strike was in progress, that if a council of education had been established some years previously, even though it might only act in a purely advisory capacity to the Minister, the existence of such a council would in all probability have succeeded in avoiding that teachers' strike and the consequences for the children which flowed and flowed naturally from it.

This motion suggests that a council of education should be established as a permanent advisory body. I agree wholeheartedly, and in that connection —I have referred to the fact that it has been agreed on by the parties supporting this Government—I should like to say, with regard to the word "permanent" in the motion, that I am very glad the Minister did not rush in immediately to establish any kind of hotchpotch advisory body which came into his head. I am glad that he was rather cautious in his approach, because the necessity for such a council will probably be admitted by all parties to-day —I know it was opposed by the Fianna Fáil Government in the past—in the light of experience and with memories of the tragic teachers' strike and such matters. It will probably be agreed in these circumstances that a council such as this is necessary now, but that should not blind us to the fact that there are and must be difficulties involved in the setting up of such a council and the selection of the personnel.

I believe it is absolutely essential that some method should be found whereby parents, who are perhaps the first people concerned in the matter of the education of their children, will receive adequate representation on the council. I know that that must be a very knotty problem for the Minister and it may be one of the reasons why the council has not been established already. As Deputy Palmer said, there are not, unfortunately, what might be termed recognised parents' bodies in existence for any great length of time. I think that some effort is being made at the moment to get some kind of organisation amongst parents from the point of view of education. I do not know whether that effort will amount to anything or not and the whole question of representation for parents must be a difficult one for the Minister. I believe that the churches, the universities and the teachers themselves must be represented on the council, and that, whenever it is established, it must be established with the intention of keeping it as a permanent advisory body. It would be a mistake to set it up and to dub it from the start an experiment that might not be continued. That is one of the reasons why I am glad the Minister did not rush in to set up any kind of council.

Deputy Sweetman gave his reasons for supporting this motion and he pointed to some of the matters which could be brought under review by the council, when established and working. He also touched on the question of compulsory teaching through Irish. I do not want to express very strong views one way or the other on that matter at this stage. I have expressed them in the Dáil and outside already, but I want to ask Deputies to bear this in mind when coming to a decision on the motion, that the question of compulsory teaching through Irish is one of the matters about which there seems to be a great deal of confusion and contradiction. In any discussion on the Department of Education in this House, it is not uncommon to hear a dozen Deputies from different sides of the House expressing contradictory views with regard to what effect compulsory teaching through Irish has on the children in the schools and, not only that, but the reception which that system gets from parents and their children. Some Deputies say that the experience is that the parents are proud if their children know Irish, even if, through knowing Irish, as is claimed in other quarters, they are not up to the mark in other subjects. My own experience, and I have stated it before, is that the average Dublin parent is definitely against what is known as the compulsory teaching through Irish system.

The opposition to that system has been expressed from teachers and when the question was discussed here on the Estimate for the Department of Education the Minister stated that he was making an inquiry into it. If the council of education was established, such a council, if it were properly representative of the parents, teachers and ecclesiastical authorities, would be able to advise the Minister in a very short space of time as to the all-over view on compulsory teaching through Irish. I think that is a problem that must come under review by this council when it is established. My experience is that the average Dublin parent is definitely against that system and would like to see it modified or altered in some way. Various other questions would probably spring to the minds of different Deputies which could be properly submitted to a council of education.

I would like to see the opposition which was voiced to the establishment of such a council as this, by Deputy Derrig when he was Minister and by Deputy de Valera when he was Taoiseach, withdrawn now, as I believe there is a very general demand from all sections of the people for the establishment of this council.

Mrs. Redmond

I feel that the time has come now for clear speaking on the matter of education. As Deputy O'Higgins has just said, there is a great deal of controversy in most people's minds here in Ireland as to the present system of education. I welcome this council which our Minister proposes to set up. It is up to every Deputy who feels any responsibility to his constituents, to voice their opinion or what they might term their grievances, so that the council may be enlightened as to what is really wrong with the present system, in the opinion of various people. Certainly, throughout the country there is no unanimity of opinion, in clapping ourselves on the back and thinking that everything is all right. On the contrary, people regard the present system as something to be looked on with a very wary eye, since we are not advancing, though a good deal of money is being spent. For that reason, I welcome this council. I believe that, when there are people looking at these matters from an unbiassed point of view, much can be done and great help can be given to the present Minister. We all realise that he is a man of great energy and we all appreciate his anxiety for the Department he is now guiding. At the same time, we feel that something must be done to help him a little bit further and to help on our system of education, so as to fit our young people to take their part in the world which is advancing every day. These are just a few words, first of all to compliment the Minister in setting up this council and, secondly, to put some points which may be of help.

I have spoken on many occasions, on the Estimates here, regarding the waste of money in the teaching of compulsory Irish. Only last week I was in a district which is an Irish-speaking one known as the Gaeltacht, and a few weeks ago an advertisement appeared for a postman, an ordinary job, where a man was being looked for with ordinary intelligence and ordinary education. There was not one in that particular district who could be found to take it up, even as a temporary position, as there was not one suitable person capable of reading English from the envelopes. I ask anybody, in all sincerity, if that is education, and if that is what we are collecting taxes and spending money on. By all means, if people want to have Irish, very good, it is our national language and let it be taught as a language; but let our people at least be educated and be allowed to fit themselves to earn their living in any way, in whatever role they may be called upon to fill in this life after they leave school. There is no use in hoodwinking ourselves any longer. The time has come to get down to clear thinking. We have got as far as having a council. We have an excellent Minister for Education and now we want to put the people's wishes into force. I do not think anyone can object to that. The people have to pay the piper and they are not inclined to have their children brought up in a state of ignorance, So much for compulsory Irish. Let it be taught as a language and let us not have this compulsory business, having everything through Irish. We do not want our children to be turned out as illiterates.

On the question of examinations, heretofore under an alien Government we had several big examinations throughout the summer term and in all cases the heads of the school were able to have the results before the children were due to return in September. Now we have less examinations and the results are not known to the heads until the children have returned in September.

That is quite wrong; it is quite clear to everyone that it hampers the various heads of the schools not to have the results of their pupils' examinations before returning time. They cannot just act on chance, but now it is purely a question of chance whether they put a boy or girl up to the correct class or not, according to the result of the examination. It would help the various headmasters and those in charge in convent schools, if the results were out in the middle of July, or at least by the end of July. It seems an extraordinary thing that we have less examinations now, possibly more examiners, certainly more money spent, yet less efficiency. It is a very important point, firstly to the children, and secondly to the masters. They feel very keenly on this and it has been mentioned to me on a few occasions. We all remember that when we were at school ourselves we saw the results hanging up when we went back after the holidays and we knew long before that the results of the various examinations. I see no reason, now that we have an Irish Government and an Irish Minister for Education, why we cannot have the same efficiency. There should be even greater efficiency now and for that reason I believe this council can be of the greatest help to our Minister. I hope that the Deputies here will throw their weight behind the council and make our system of education one of which we can be proud, and one on which we can justify the spending of so much of the people's money, in present hard times.

Cormac Breathnach

Táim i bhfábhar an rúin so. Nuair bhíos i mo uachtarán ar chumann na múinteorí, blianta ó shoin, cuireadh an rud seo ós ár gcomhair. Rinneamar iarracht ar an rún a chur i bhfeidhm, bhí daoine le chéile ó gach dream oideachais sa tír, ach níor éirigh linn an chomhairle a bhunú, i ngeall ar na fáthanna atá mé gan a luadh anois.

Nuair a bhíos thall ar thaobh an Rialtais, d'iarr mé ar an Aire, atá anois ar an taobh seo, go minic—gach bliain—an chomhairle seo a bhunú, ach níor éist an tAire liom.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Bhí an ceart agam.

Cormac Breathnach

Ní dóigh liom go raibh. Sílim gur agamsa a bhí an ceart. Dhiúltaigh sé an chomhairle sin a chur ar bun. Tá áthas ormsa go bhfuil beartaithe ag an Aire nua sin a dhéanamh. Dúirt sé é sin go minic cheana—ach, mar deir an Teachta Palmer, tá sé mall chun an tairiscint a mholadh—béidir blian ró-mhall. Ní dóigh liom gur ceart an cheist sin atá luaite ag an Teachta Bean Mhic Réamoinn a phlé—ceist múineadh tré Ghaeilge. Ní dóigh liom go mbaineann sé leis an rún.

An tAire Oideachais (Risteárd Ua Maolchatha)

Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach.

Cormac Breathnach

Ní dóigh liom go mbaineann sé leis an rún go gcuirfear an chomhairle ar bun. Tá súil agam go gcuirfear ar bun é.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Táimid go léir ar aon aigne anois i dtaobh na ceiste sin.

Cormac Breathnach

Cuidím leis an rún.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

Tá mise i gcoinne an rúin seo. Ní fheicim cad é an mhaitheas a dhéanfadh an chomhairle seo atá i gceist, nó cad é an sórt oibre a dhéanfas sí. Gheall an tAire bliain ó shoin don Dáil agus don tír go gcuirfí an chomhairle ar bun. Cad 'na thaobh nach bhfuil sin déanta aige? Cad'na thaobh gur chuir sé bliain isteach ag machnamh mar gheall air? Cad 'na thaobh nach bhfuil an chomhairle ag obair cheana féin? Cad iad na deacrachtaí agus na constaicí a bhaineas léis, atá ag cur cosc air é dhéanamh agus an gheallúint a choimhlíonadh go dtí anois? Ba mhaith liom go n-inseodh sé dhúinn cathain a choimhlíonfas sé an gheallúint sin. Ní chreidim go ndéanfaidh an chomhairle seo aon mhaitheas.

Tá a lán daoine sa tír a bhfuil an tuairim chéanna acu, go bhfuil daoine— caol-dream is ea iad, agus tá an Teachta Bean Mhic Réamoinn tar éis labhairt anseo ar an dóigh san—ag brath ar an gcomhairle seo chun lagadh a chur ar obair na Gaeilge. Tá daoine ag brath ar an gcomhairle seo atá á bheartú agus á chur chun críche chun diobháil a dhéanamh, do réir dealraimh, don obair mhór a bhí ar lámha anseo le 25 bliana chun an Ghaeilge a shábháil agus a chur á labhairt ar fud na tíre. Tá mise ar an tuairim go ndéanfaidh sí díobháil mura dtoghfar an dream ceart ar an gcomhairle. Ba mhaith liom fháil amach cad é an mhaitheas a bheas léi, cad é an obair a dhéanfas sí, cad iad na cuspóirí a bheas roimpi, agus cad é an gnó is féidir léi a dhéanamh nach féidir a dhéanamh leis an gcomhairle oideachais atá ann faoi láthair. Tá mé i gcoinne an rúin.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Is dócha go bhfuil sé de cheart ag an Teachta Ó Briain ceist a chur orm cad 'na thaobh nar cuireadh an Chomhairle Oideachais seo ar bun roimhe seo. Bhí cúis mhaith leis sin.

The Deputy asks why an advisory council on education was not set up by me earlier than this, that is, sometime during the last year. For a very good reason. I am going to set up a good council of education, representative of first-class educational thought and the first-class educational work that is being done systematically and quietly in the schools of this country. I am going to set up a council of education that will be worthy of the people's capacity and of the people's ideals in education and when I am setting up a council of that kind, I want them to be working with a Minister who would be up to their standards. I felt that, until I had some experience of the Department of Education, some intimate and detailed knowledge of its functioning, some knowledge of the work that was being done in the schools and of the personnel doing that work, I would not be worthy to be associated, as Minister, with the council of education that I propose to set up.

Deputy Cormac Breathnach said he is in favour of the council and I think Deputy O'Higgins asked Deputy Derrig whether he was in favour of it or not I do not know whether it is worth while going into these questions at all. From my general experience of the Department I am quite satisfied that the last Government, in response to the outlining of the situation given by the Vocational Organisation Committee, in face of the examination carried out and the opinions expressed then, and the general expression of feeling in the country, would, in time at any rate, have set up a council. I indicated that I was going to set up a council. That is one of the things that is foremost in my mind at the present time but as I say there is a very considerable amount of work to be done in the Department. I have been learning quite a lot. One of the things about which I want to learn is the question of personnel. I want to assure Deputies on all sides of the House—I do not want to make a precise promise but just to tell them what is in my mind—that I expect by September or October of this year, I shall be able to give a decision with regard to the personnel of the council I would wish to set up, and the terms of reference given to that council.

Both Deputies Palmer and O'Higgins have spoken as if this council were going to be a representative council. The Vocational Organisation Committee, in making its recommendation, recommended that it would be a council built up in a representative way. I think I have said in some place or another, if not here, that I was not going to appoint a council as an advisory council that would be built up by representation from various bodies here, that if I did, its personnel would be as numerous and varied as the contents of Noah's Ark and that I did not think that you would get advice on the subject on which we want to get the advice of the council—and that is educational thought and educational ideas—from such a council. That is, we would not get the best type of direction from such a council.

Without saying that I have found complete agreement in every direction in which I have discussed this matter, on that point I do want to say that in the early days when I took up the Ministry one of the first things, in the early months at any rate, I particularly wanted to do was to discuss the problem of our council of education, the work of the council and the best means of getting such a council set up. I discussed that with nearly every type of representative and important body and with many others. I explained to them that, having gone into the matter, the council of education I contemplated as the best type would not be one for which a number of bodies throughout the country would be asked to nominate representatives. I would ask Deputies to understand that that is what I have in mind at the present time and that it is along that line I feel that I will ultimately go. I would ask them to withhold their judgment in these matters until I actually put my proposals into operation. In the meantime I do not think it necessary to go into all these other detailed questions that were mentioned. I would even ask Deputy Ó Briain to withhold his judgment too.

Deputy Sweetman has spoken of the necessity for better and more widespread education in matters affecting rural parts of the country. Nothing in my experience in the Department of Education has so stimulated me or so raised my courage and my hope for education in the country as the work which I have seen done at the periphery, the vocational and technical education work where it touches on the rural districts. I have met in various groups representatives of the committees dealing with vocational and technical education in a number of counties. I have met them in contact with some of their principal officers, their chief executive officers and some of the principal teachers, and with some of the inspectors of the Department of Education who deal with these matters, and I am perfectly satisfied that there is work being done in rural areas under the vocational education committees that is of the highest possible value to the country, educationally, spiritually and economically. I feel that the contact between the doing of that work and the teachers on the one hand and the representative committees on the other is one of the most valuable contacts we have. I feel that without the active interest, the patronage and the help of these committees that are supervising that work the teachers who are carrying it on and the inspectors who are supervising it would not be able to do the magnificent work they are doing. I feel that these committees are providing in the various rural areas an atmosphere of interest and help for the carrying on of that work of such a kind that it would be impossible to carry on the work if they were not there.

I look forward to a council of education creating an atmosphere for educational matters here in Ireland that will encourage those who are working in educational fields. There are very many different educational fields in the country divided between the educational work of the cities, the educational work of the glens and the educational work of the technical, secondary and primary classes. There are very many fields of educational activity in which we want active workers to pool their thoughts, their theories and the result of their work, and I feel that the council of education that I contemplate we shall be able to set up will be one which will create an atmosphere which will inspire and bring into active operation a number of committees and councils on various aspects of educational work from one end of the country to the other.

I think everybody who looks at the work of the educational organisations in the country so far as their proceedings are published is disappointed that there is not a sufficient amount of thought and talk given to the problems of education and to the working of education. I know some counties where clinical associations have been formed by doctors, where dispensary doctors come together once a month and one of them reads a medical paper and they discuss it. They have visitors from neighbouring counties and from Dublin and they raise the practice of and the approach to medicine to a very much higher point than would be reached without these assocations. I should like to see the same thing happening throughout the various districts in the country in connection with educational matters as regards primary, secondary and technical schools. The energy and the thought are there for it and only require to be stimulated into action.

What I want particularly is that an advisory council with high qualifications and experience, in touch with the people and representatives of the people, shall be brought together to define the educational objectives of our people and to assist in improving educational methods. If there has been delay in my taking action in this particular matter, it is in order that I may be better able to help them in their high work, that I may be better able to explain to them what the Department of Education and the various teaching organisations throughout the country can be expected to do to help them along the road to a higher idealism, higher and better education, and more successful application of the training and the education in the schools in order to increase productivity, increase happiness and increase culture in the country.

I would ask Deputies who are interested in the Irish language not to think that an odd person here and there or small bodies here and there are the custodians of the Irish language. The people of this country from Donegal to Waterford will decide and determine to keep, and successfully do it, the language that was handed down as our language for thousands of years, that has enriched itself as the years went by, being the only language in Europe outside Latin and Greek that was the written language of the people from the time they began to write and is still with us in the glens, the valleys and the bogs of the West of Ireland. The Irish people to-day, from Waterford to Donegal, whether they can speak Irish or not, are not going to allow that to be lost. The people who are of such cailbre, quality and achievement in the educational world that they are going to be selected for the council of education, above any others are not going to allow that language to be lost.

There are things that could be said to-day without any council of education as to what could be done and what could not be done at this stage in the educational programme to help Irish back as the vernacular of the people. If we are going to talk about these things—as we are—all the people will not be guided by what the council of education may say in the matter. We ought to talk about these things as if we were all deeply interested and in such as way as to get a chance of seeing one another's point of view and of knowing the facts of the case.

I welcome this motion to-day as a guarantee to me and a reminder to me that this council of education is wanted and that I am not going to be allowed to sleep on the job of setting it up. I am not. I have been thinking a lot about it and did a lot of inquiry and examination in the earlier months after coming into the Ministry. I have been doing other things since to prepare me better to be able to select the council and work with the council for the benefit of education generally in the country and that will include the saving, the spreading and the keeping for all time for our people of our national language.

Tomás Ó Deirg

Is dóigh liom nach raibh aon díomá ar lucht an Rialtais nuair nar chuala siad aon fhocal ón mbinse seo faoin rún atá ar an bpáipéar. Dúirt na daoine a mhol an rún don Dáil go raibh glacaithe ag an Rialtas le prionsabal an rúin agus ní raibh orainne ach éisteacht leis an Aire féachaint an raibh aon tsocrú aige faoin rún a chur i bhfheidhm.

I do not think that the proposer or the seconder of the motion can have been in any way disappointed in not hearing from the Opposition Front Bench because, although they were not present in the House when these matters were under discussion before, they have an idea of the views that I, for example, have upon this matter. The position is now entirely different and neither the proposer nor the seconder nor the other speakers to the motion really felt it necessary to make clear the grounds upon which they consider the council to be necessary since the Minister, both before and after the election and in this House, pledged himself to the establishment of such a council. They took it for granted, I presume, as I did, that he would have some statement to make regarding it on this occasion. The Minister has now stated that until next September or October this council will not be set up. For a good many years past we have had this question on the annual Estimates, and I cannot avoid pointing out to the Minister that in the estimates which will be under discussion in a few months' time it is very likely that this question will crop up again. Certainly, we have not got very much additional information from the Minister as to the progress he has made. I entirely agree with him that if this council is to be set up, a council which would work with the Minister should be envisaged. A council which would be likely to clash with ministerial policy or which would attempt to arrogate to itself administrative duties or which would interfere in policy appertaining particularly to the Government —matters of finance, for example— would not, I think, be advisable. I have expressed that view before.

I think there is a great deal of confusion about this matter because the proposer of the resolution suggests in reply to certain objections which managers—some managers, at any rate——may make to the setting up of this council of education, that it is likely to help them to perform the work entrusted to them more efficiently. Perhaps I may not be interpreting Deputy Palmer entirely correctly. He may have meant that the council would, in effect, see that the work of primary education would be carried out more efficiently, if possible, than at present. One can see that if managerial responsibility is to be limited by the advice given by the council regarding matters which managers consider to appertain to them, it is obviously going to raise delicate questions. I am not going into that any further, but since Deputy Palmer has mentioned the matter it seems clear to me that he has taken a rather superficial view.

The Minister made it clear, with regard to the second point that was made by the Deputy in proposing the motion, that organisations such as presumably the Irish National Teachers' Organisation should not be represented. Everyone would like to see all the organisations connected with education represented, but that is not feasible and the Minister is quite right, I think, in determining that he is not going to be bound in that way to give representation to organisations on the basis of what we might presume to be delegates appointed by these organisations. The Minister has expressed his view about that and on these two points which the proposer mentioned I doubt very much if the expectation he has from the setting up of the council of education will be realised.

I presume the Minister has good reasons for not giving us more information. He says that he is still considering the question and that he wishes to put up the best body possible and secure the best possible representation. I am sure we all hope that those who will be appointed will be worthy in every way of the high honour which will be conferred upon them and we all agree with the Minister that they should be eminent and well known in the educational world and that they should have the reputation of being persons of understanding and experience in dealing with educational problems.

I do not want to go back over past matters, but when Deputy O'Higgins says that there has been a great deal of agitation about this matter and that there seems to be a general demand for the setting up of the council of education and when somebody else says that people have felt in their minds that there is something wrong with the system, it seems to me that if there were really all this agitation and demand it would surely have made itself more vocal and be of such a character that it would have compelled the Minister to do something— if that were possible for perhaps the Minister is a strong man——

General Mulcahy

He is very amenable.

Mr. Derrig

——and when he wants to carry out a certain policy he insists in doing it in his own way. It seems to me that if there is any foundation for the claim that there is a widespread demand for the council—that there has been an agitation and that parents generally want it— we have seen very little proof of that during the last 12 months, apart from the putting down of this resolution. If this resolution had not been taken for another 12 months, I do not know that there would have been any dreadful upset in the country or that anyone would feel that the educational system was going to the dogs in the meantime.

With these few words, I think I can sit down, except to express the hope that, when the Minister has a further statement to make, it will be of such a character as to enable us to say that it means a step forward in securing greater efficiency in our educational system. I hope that whatever step the Minister takes will be a cooperative one, one that will bring all classes and all the different interests connected with education together to work harmoniously, and that in that way the country generally will benefit.

Motion put and agreed to.