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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Feb 1949

Vol. 114 No. 2

Modern Swimming and Bathing Facilities—Motion.

I move on behalf of Deputy Belton and myself the following motion:

That Dáil Eireann is of opinion that modern swimming and bathing facilities are urgently required for our cities and our towns.

I move the motion specifically to bring to the notice of the Government and the Dáil the rather pathetic and lamentable state of the swimming and bathing facilities that exist throughout the length and breadth of the country. A good deal of capital and a good deal of play has been made from time to time in this country on the question of cleanliness and health. It is an admitted, and indeed a universally agreed fact that one of the most beneficial exercises conceivable, from a medical point of view, in health-giving qualities is that of swimming. But the problem goes a lot further.

I do not know if the Dáil realises that, in fact, in this country we have not got one decent indoor swimming pool or one decent outdoor pool, one of a standard to which you could invite people by way of competition or in which you could properly or adequately train swimmers. I speak from considerable personal experience of the whole problem of swimming and swimming facilities. It falls to a person's lot in his lifetime, I suppose, to become proficient in not more than one or two sports. The one that appealed most to me in my not so distant youth was that of swimming. I found the pathetic and miserable situation that, despite the best endeavours and despite the earnestness of enthusiasts in the swimming arena, the facilities available were so antiquated and inadequate that it was impossible even to allow a person to get himself fit enough to be ready, by proper training, for competitive swimming.

People talk a good deal in this country on many subjects. There is one startling reality in this problem of swimming baths and swimming facilities, and it is that while in this city of Dublin, with its teeming population, there is not available a proper swimming pool of any type, the city of Belfast can provide at least seven good-class indoor swimming pools for its population. The miserable contribution to swimming in Dublin is the Tara Street baths, which may or may not have a water supply according to the fuel situation or a water supply at any particular time. What are alleged to be swimming baths serve many purposes, including the very necessary one of being available, on certain days of the week, to the women of Dublin for the purpose of doing their washing. We had one other swimming pool in Dublin which was of some small value to this extent—that there the youth in the schools were able to avail of it during certain hours, evenings and days of the week to train. I refer to the Iveagh baths, but in recent years it became, far from being a swimming pool, a de-lousing centre for people going to England. That has been the contribution of Dublin City to swimming efforts in this country.

It is many years ago since a little band of real enthusiasts started, developed and worked up the Irish Amateur Swimming Association, an organisation which, incidentally, must commend itself very earnestly to this House in that it is an organisation that knows no border and never has. That organisation addressed repeated exhortations to Government after Government to give it some kind of swimming pools, in some part of the country in which it could do some of the necessary work of preparing swimmers, divers and water polo players for international competitions. One can say that in archaic conditions, and in impossible weather conditions, there has been, in the last seven or eight years, an amazing stride made, an amazing and creditable national effort made by swimmers in this country to improve the standard of their performance: to improve it to such an extent that they were able to complete in various international competitions and, indeed, to send swimmers to complete in the Olympic competitions.

Think of the position that would have existed had there been available in this country, only for one year before the Olympic Games, one swimming pool that would provide facilities so that swimmers and divers could train throughout the year. I say that in at least one sphere, in the diving sphere, Ireland would have made its mark in both the high-board and spring-board diving championships of the world. The position exists in swimming that swimmers have been able to obtain a high standard of performance in a short season in cold water in a small pool—the main pool is that inadequate one at Blackrock, where the main competitions in swimming in this country are held. When swimmers, divers and polo players can in those conditions build themselves into the standard of efficiency that they have achieved, what would happen if we made one genuine effort to provide in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway an adequate swimming pool?

I urge this motion upon the Dáil in a very earnest way. I feel that and basically it would be a tremendously sound idea to develop a proper swimming complex throughout the country. It is a clean, decent, wholesome sport; it is a healthy sport and it is a sport in which the indications are that with any kind of facilities this nation, small as it is, could take a proud place in the athletic world.

I must confess that I have been severely disappointed with the Department of Local Government. I urged upon them in a very special way that they might, even as an interim and expedient measure, make available, before our teams went to complete in the Games, the Iveagh Pool, so that we could train them for three or four months. I felt that this country, sending out into international competition a team of swimmers and divers, might have bestirred itself to make that effort. I feel sorry for the whole amateur swimming association and for all the people who are enthusiastic about swimming that that gesture could not be made. Now, with the tremendous drive to house our people, with the tremendous development of built-up areas, the Department responsible must keep in front of them in all their plans the necessity for giving in all those very populous areas adequate swimming and bathing facilities.

Apart altogether from the element that would appeal to us in the glamour of competition, we have to remember that it is essentially a healthy sport, a sport that will build up in a very pronounced and effective way the body of the child. It is a sport that will give the growing child a confidence and manliness that few other sports will give. It is a sport that encourages a feeling of courage and faternity that few other games encourage. It is something that will solve many of Dr. Browne's burning disease problems. I feel that we are not making proper use of preventive measures when we consider the building up of our boys and girls. We do not make adequate use of our normal resources in the training, in a normal physical way, that will enable them to build up their bodies so that there will be a far more effective resistance to any disease that might threaten them.

Swimming is something that I love. There is something about it that to me has a particular charm and appeal. It is a sport that I have spent a very considerable time at. I have devoted a good deal of my energy to it. But there is more in it than that. There is a cleanliness about it, not only because water is one of the component parts, but there is a cleanlines about it in so far as it develops the muscles in a coordinated kind of way. It keeps the growing boy or girl clean in body and, as well, it keeps them clean in mind.

I have nothing but a complete contempt, an unadulterated contempt, for the lack of appreciation, in the minds of county councils throughout the country, as to the necessity of swimming and bathing facilities in their areas. It is something that can be developed in a not terribly expensive way. To provide adequate pools for the purpose of training or developing our competitive swimmers would not involve any colossal sum. You would need only a fair-sized pool in four or five populous centres. We could easily develop ordinary swimming pools. We could at a reasonable expense provide fresh water swimming pools in the river districts and improve swimming and bathing facilities along our coasts. At the moment these things are shamefully and disgustingly neglected by our local authorities.

I think the time has come when the Dáil should record its appreciation of the urgent need to construct adequate swimming and bathing facilities in this country. The time has come when the work of people like Eddie Heron, for so many years our diving champion and who was at one time referred to by Pete Desjardins, when he was on tour in this country, as the greatest diver he had ever seen, should be properly appreciated.

Eddie Heron won the championship of the British Isles. He was sought after by the United States of America to complete for them on their diving team in the Olympic Games. When a man of that calibre is willing and anxious to train younger people in this excellent sport he should have at his disposal an adequate pool in which to train them and give them the benefit of his mature knowledge and mature coaching. MacCartney of Belfast and Hynes and Brady of Dublin have made startling advances in this sport and have lowered in a quite phenomenal way Irish swimming records over the last few years. These men are now reaching the prime of manhood. They should be given swimming pools of adequate length and accommodation in which they could train the younger people in this magnificent sport. The time has come when the whole country must be awakened to the necessity and the desirability of providing adequate swimming facilities and proper bathing pools. Because of the beneficial effects of swimming on health and physical development everything possible should be done to make the people conscious of the importance of developing this particular type of sport. In its concept and de facto it is the one sport which teaches selfreliance. There is no other recreation to compare with it in that respect. If the young people are encouraged to learn swimming we shall have in this country a stronger, healthier and more courageous youth. The G.A.A. has built stadiums. The Rugby Football Union has built stadiums. Practically every type of sport in this country is catered for to a much greater extent than is swimming. Some of the games played have made us internationally famous. Swimming, water-polo, spring-board and high-board diving can make us equally internationally famous if they are developed. The Irish Amateur Swimming Association deserves some recognition of their repeated efforts to get something done to develop aquatic sports in this country.

I second this motion. I think that the provision of public baths and proper facilities would be of the greatest possible benefit to the country from the point of view of the health of the general public. Such a provision would fill a long-felt want. Around the Irish coast there are numerous small inlets and coves suitable for conversion into swimming pools. Most of these are conveniently situated from the point of view of the urban dwellers. Their development and improvement could be achieved at a relatively small cost. Such a development would be attractive from the point of view of the tourist.

In Dublin there are three sea-water baths—Clontarf, Blackrock and Dún Laoghaire. There are two indoor swimming pools—Tara Street and the Iveagh Baths. Certainly the people of Dublin have no reason to be proud of the facilities available at the present moment. There are numerous seaside resorts where the local authorities could carry out development works for the improvement of swimming facilities generally. There is Red Rock in the Howth area. With very little expenditure that could be made every attractive from the point of view of swimmers and bathers. You have the area between Malahide and Portmarnock. The Dublin County Council has already built a jetty in that area in order to afford facilities for deep-water swimming. But the requirements provided for fall far short of what is desirable. There is Dalkey, Seapoint and the coast right along into Bray where deep-water swimming pools could be constructed at a comparatively small outlay. About ten years ago I paid a visit to Weston-super-Mare. In comparison with Dublin it is a small town. There I inspected a glorious swimming pool. Here in Dublin we have a population of some 700,000 people and there is not so much as one decent pool available for them. The best swimming pool in this country was constructed in four weeks. That is the pool at Butlin's Camp.

I would like to support this motion wholeheartedly. For many years the members of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association have been crying out for assistance for the establishment of both indoor and outdoor baths. It is a tribute to that organisation that they have brought the facilities to the pitch at which they are even at the present moment. At the same time everybody must agree that the facilities offered are anything but adequate. Around the coast there are outdoor baths. In my opinion the most pressing need is for indoor baths. Because of climatic conditions our swimming season is relatively short. Most people do not commence swimming until the middle or end of June and they finish the season by the end of August. The season in this country is, therefore, approximately some two and a half months in duration. It is generally agreed that the maximum of training should be given to people when they are young. Because of the paucity of indoor swimming pools it is impossible to train the youth of this country. The school holiday period coincides with the best swimming period.

The result is that there is no means whatever available to the schools to teach the young people how to swim. Year after year we read in or about the months of July and August of the alarming number of drownings. I think it cannot be denied that if swimming were made more popular, if the art of swimming were more widely indulged in and, in particular, taught in the schools many of these drownings would be avoided and I am sure in a very short time they would be down to the minimum. However, without indoor baths properly heated where people can go in winter time and where school children can be taught by experts, the teaching of swimming on a proper basis will not be possible. I mentioned the perseverance of the swimming association in trying to maintain and improve the swimming facilities that are already available. In that connection the residents of Templemore and Dungarvan deserve great credit. Due to local enterprise, energy and effort they have provided themselves with swimming baths. The one in Dungarvan particularly compares very favourably with other swimming baths all over the country. I am told that was as a result of local effort but I am open to correction on that. The local authority might have financed it to a reasonable extent.

Stress has been laid on the absence of swimming facilities in and about Dublin. In Cork, also, even though we are probably relatively better off than Dublin, swimming facilities are still inadequate. Possibly the best of the swimming baths in Ireland are situated in Cork. Judging by the appearance of them I am sure these were built 50 or 60 years ago. If it was possible to make a start in providing indoor swimming baths such as the Eglinton Street baths in Cork and the Tara Street baths in Dublin surely we should not have to stop there. Surely we could have kept up the progress and not only provided extra indoor swimming baths but improved the existing ones. So far as I know the swimming baths in Cork have not even had a coat of paint in the last 20 or 30 years. In Cork winter swimming facilities are available at the present time, and I can tell the House that they are being most eagerly availed of by a large section of the swimming fraternity.

I feel that one of the answers the Parliamentary Secretary will make is that with the lack of building materials and the constant shortage of housing it would be very difficult for his Government to devote any money to the provision of swimming baths. Everybody here knows how necessary it is for each and every Government to concentrate on housing but nevertheless we must not lose sight of the fact that people cannot live all their lives in houses. They have to go abroad and seek exercise, refreshment and entertainment and as Deputy Collins said, what better way can they find of exercising themselves, particularly in summer, than in properly equipped swimming baths.

I have not been abroad to see any of the swimming facilities they have in other countries but a well-known Dublin swimmer to whom I was speaking recently told me that in the past few months he went on a tour in Denmark, a country which corresponds to a large degree with our own as far as resources, population and so forth are concerned. He found there facilities such as put him to shame when he reflected on the swimming facilities that there were available in his own country. So much so that when out of ordinary politeness it came to their turn to invite the people back here, they were ashamed to do so.

When the inter-Party Government came into power they put a nail into the coffin of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association when, in their policy of retrenchment, they withheld the provision of £25,000 for athletics that was provided by the outgoing Government. That, I am sure, was a severe blow to all athletically minded people. Twenty-five thousand pounds certainly would not have provided anything like the facilities that swimmers and other sportsmen needed but it would have at least made a start and a start in the right direction. However, the start was not made although as far back as December, 1947, the then Minister for Local Government, speaking at the annual dinner of the Blackrock Swimming Club, promised faithfully that his Party would bear more than half the capital outlay of any swimming baths that were to be built or provided in any part of the country, provided the local authority raised the balance by way of tax on the rates or voluntary subscriptions. There again not only have the swimming community been discouraged by this policy of retrenchment, but they see no hope whatever other than by voluntary subscriptions of providing the requirements necessary. I do not say that by way of seeking political Party advantage but I am speaking to the Parliamentary Secretary of the Department of Local Government, who, to my own knowledge, is a sportsman. I am asking him to use any influence he may possess with his colleagues in the Government or in his Department to revert to the policy that they found before them when they came into office of starting to make provision for athletics and to extend them, side by side with ordinary field athletics, to swimming.

Deputy Collins made reference to the normal health of the people. I agree with him that swimming probably is more capable of adding to the health of the normal individual than any other sport. We must not lose sight of the fact in all our health programmes that what an old wise man said—I do not know his name— summarises the position as I see it. He used the words, "Mens sana in corpore sano."

In supporting this motion, I should like to say that I am in full sympathy with the case made in relation to the efforts of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association to train our promising swimmers for the bigger international events. Reference was made to the position in Dublin, and, while the position in Dublin—I suppose this is the only way to describe it—is deplorable, there is a much worse position throughout the country. Galway is a great seaside resort, but, in Galway and Salthill, we have not one indoor bathing pool of any description, and the one outdoor pool there is is one into which only a very experienced swimmer could venture.

There are people throughout the country who are prepared to help to establish swimming pools, and, as Deputy Lynch said, the previous Government had a scheme whereby they would contribute something like 50 per cent. of the cost. In one case, however, a bit of a damper was thrown on such a proposal by, I suppose, the Department of Finance. In the town of Tuam, a committee got together with a view to seeing what might be done towards having a swimming pool erected. I made the necessary inquiries for them and found that a local contribution of a certain sum would be required, that the county council would be asked to pay an additional sum and that then the Department would see what they would be prepared to contribute. The committee collected the money and had it ready; the county council did their part; and the Local Government Department were prepared to do theirs. But what happened? All was ready for starting work three or four years ago, but the work could be undertaken only on the basis of the unemployed register. If any other schemes were available in Tuam, the work would not be undertaken and it could only be done by the unemployed. That was a complete damper on voluntary effort which was prepared to do its part in putting up whatever sum was required.

That position should be changed and the Department should come to the assistance of any people who are prepared to make such facilities available by removing these obstacles. It is a terrible position that middle-aged and elderly people who go to Galway for a few weeks' holidays cannot go into the water there. I hope this motion will receive the sympathetic consideration of the Department, that every encouragement and assistance will be given to these people and that any barriers which may be in the way of local authorities or local people speeding up the work of erecting swimming baths and bathing-pools over the country will be removed.

As has been said, swimming has tremendous health benefits, and it is not necessary to refer to its value from the point of view of cleanliness. In many ways, it is one of the activities that will help to improve considerably the health of our people and one of the sports in which the younger element should be encouraged to indulge instead of playing pitch-and-toss at some street corner.

Nobody can doubt the sincerity of the mover and seconder of the motion in urging that facilities for swimming and bathing be provided. There is no necessity to go over the ground covered by Deputy Collins who is himself a very keen swimming enthusiast. He has pointed out the benefits of swimming from the point of view of health and hygiene, from the point of view of the morale of youngsters and of teaching them independence. He stressed especially the facilities which we should provide for our champion swimmers and divers so that they may be able to compete with swimmers in other countries and, in turn, to invite foreign swimmers here. I am especially sympathetic towards this motion, but I cannot say that I would make the same case as Deputy Collins made, because, in my opinion, he placed far too much emphasis on the suggestion that we should or might provide such facilities for champion swimmers and divers. My idea would be that, if we were to provide these facilities at all, the emphasis should not be placed on these people but that these facilities should be available for the broad masses of our people. The main work, and indeed I might say the entire work, in that respect will fall on the local authorities, inasmuch as the demand for such facilities will not be the same in every area. It will, therefore, be a local matter, and, consequently, is mainly a problem for the local authorities.

This seems to a large extent like a pious resolution. I do not mean to be critical of the motion but it seems pious when one considers in present circumstances what the difficulties are, especially for the local authorities. Even before they think about the cost at all, there are many matters to be considered. There is the question of the provision of the site; there is the question of the type of facilities which ought to be provided; and there is the question whether these facilities, when provided, will draw in sufficient income for their maintenance from year to year. In the case of the city of Dublin particularly, there is the problem of whether there should be one central establishment for swimming and bathing, or whether it would be more desirable to establish smaller swimming pools and bathing-places in the different congested areas. I have in mind that, if these were to be provided in Dublin, it would be a matter of opinion whether, for instance, a swimming pool or bathing place should be established in Crumlin, Drimnagh, or whether there should be one central establishment to cater for the entire residents of the city. These are the problems, possibly small problems, with which the local authority has to concern itself, but the big problem— as, no doubt, Deputies will appreciate —is the cost; and, I stress, in present circumstances.

Deputy Lynch anticipated a point which I intend to make now. Local authorities are, at the present time, engaged in such works of national importance as the building of houses for the working classes and the provision of water supplies and sewerage. Of necessity, there must be a list of priorities and I think every member of a local authority in the House will agree that the provision of swimming pools or any other type of bathing facility would not rank very high on the list of priorities. In addition to the initial cost of the provision of these swimming pools, whether in the cities or in the smaller towns, especially in the inland towns, there is the question of the maintenance of such establishments. I have here some figures which go to show that in any place where such baths or pools exist, the expenditure is out of all proportion to the income derived from them. I do not hold up Tara Street as an outstanding example because I must confess that I do not know a lot about that particular establishment. I merely point out that the Tara Street Baths are a concern which it is not at all profitable for the Dublin Corporation to maintain. I have some recent figures here. I quote first of all the year 1940 in which, it would appear, the expenditure exceeded the income by some £3,000. In 1944, the expenditure exceeded the income by £8,650 and in 1946, the figure had jumped to nearly £10,000.

Deputy Lynch mentioned the baths in Cork. I should like it to be known that the cost of maintaining these baths also is out of all proportion to the income derived. In 1937-38, the excess of expenditure over income was in the region of £1,500. Tullamore has often been quoted as a place in which there was local initiative by the urban council in the establishment of a swimming pool. I think it was one of the first, or may I say one of the very few, established in the country. While it might seem to Deputies that the Tullamore establishment was a very successful venture, it still presents a difficulty for the Urban Council there. It is not at all a paying concern, even so far as ordinary maintenance is concerned, excluding the repayment of the loan charges. In the year 1942-43 the excess of expenditure over income was £184. This loss may appear somewhat low but it is considerable when you realise that the valuation of the urban district is only something in the region of £12,000 and the maintenance of these swimming baths in Tullamore represents a rate of 3.6 pence in the £.

I merely quote these figures to show that local authorities, apart from the capital cost involved in the establishment of such pools will have a further problem, a problem which, I am sure, they will be reluctant to face, especially, as I stated in the beginning, having regard to the difficulties in the provision of houses, water supplies and sewerage with the consequent charge on the rates.

I think it was Deputy Lynch who stated that some years back the former Minister for Local Government announced that a certain sum would be given to the Dublin Corporation and the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council, something in the region, I think he said, of a contribution of 60 per cent, towards the cost of providing swimming pools in these two areas. It is true that the previous Minister did make this announcement but it is very funny, even though he did announce to the local authorities that he was prepared to give a grant of 60 per cent., that in the following year, when the Estimates were presented, there was not a penny provided for the making of a grant to the Corporations of Dublin or Dún Laoghaire. To give Deputies an idea of the cost of such a project in the City of Dublin— Deputy Collins mentioned that there had been a proposal to provide such facilities in Dublin—I think it is only right to remind the House that in 1943 the establishment of a centre for swimming and bathing would cost something in the region of £700,000. Again, I think, considering their housing programme and the other important works of development which the Dublin Corporation have in hand, they might be reluctant to engage in a project which would involve them in such expenditure. It was £700,000 in 1943 and I venture to say that the figure would be something in the region of over £1,000,000 now. That would mean an increased charge on the rates of 3.6 pence in the £, and again I think the local authority would be reluctant to provide such facilities having regard to the cost. Incidentally, I should like to say that there is a proposal from the corporation in this respect. I am not in a position to say how far advanced it is at present but it will receive the sympathetic consideration of the Minister when the scheme has been fully examined.

Deputy Lynch also mentioned that Dungarvan had provided an admirable swimming pool. I have had an opportunity of seeing this swimming pool at Dungarvan. Undoubtedly it is an advantage in the area and it is widely used by the residents of Dungarvan. I should like to remind the House that Dungarvan in that respect did show a certain amount of initiative which I think local authorities similarly circumstanced might be able to show in future. I refer to the fact that Dungarvan found it possible to establish this swimming pool by way of a grant from the annual Special Employment Schemes Vote. They did this work for a period, I think, of two years. I would suggest to the House or to local authorities that this is one way by which it might be possible for them, if they so wish to provide swimming pools or bathing places in their particular areas. Again I should like to remind Deputies who have a particular interest in swimming, diving and bathing that local authorities might be very reluctant to devote a Special Employment Schemes grant to work of this kind when it is considered that the necessity exists for such things as the repair of footpaths and other works of general town improvement. It is not possible for me to say what State assistance might be forthcoming for proposals of this kind. So far as the Minister and I are concerned, I may say that any proposal from a local authority to establish such facilities will receive very sympathetic consideration.

He realises, as every member of the House realises, that such facilities will be a decided advantage to the community generally—not so much in regard to the provision of another form of amusement but, as must occur to every member in the House, from the point of view that it will improve the health of the young people, and one might say, of all sections of the community. I do not want to appear too pessimistic but I think most members will agree with me when I say that the building of swimming pools or the establishment of bathing places is not urgent. There is no use in thinking that because certain other cities in other countries have these facilities that we should have them in this country too. It should be remembered that these facilities were, possibly, established before the war or during some other period when conditions were not as unfavourable as they are now. I think the House will agree with me in that. As long as local authorities build houses, provide water supplies and sewerage schemes, they will have a full programme for many years to come.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary say if we are to take it from his observations that the offer of Deputy MacEntee as Minister for Local Government to provide 50 per cent. of the cost, or more, by way of State grant to local authorities for the construction of swimming pools is definitely withdrawn?

Is that grant still available?

I think it was in 1947 that the former Minister for Local Government announced—I do not know whether officially or not——

Yes, with the approval of the Government.

——a 60 per cent. grant for Dún Laoghaire and the Dublin Corporation——

It was general.

No. The Dublin Corporation and Dún Laoghaire. These schemes are now under consideration by the Department.

And a grant of that dimension will be available?

There is no suggestion——

Are we to take it that the offer of a grant by the Government is withdrawn?

Or can the Dublin Corporation or the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council count on the possibility of getting the grant?

There is never a decision about a grant until a proposal is approved. Is that not right? These two schemes are under consideration. Then there will be a decision as far as the grant is concerned.

I want to get this point clear. Can the members of the Dublin Municipal Council and the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council prepare their plans on the assumption that there will be a definite contribution from the Government towards the capital cost?

They have prepared their plans and there will be no decision until the plans are approved. These plans are at the present time being considered by the Minister.

Is there a prospect of a financial grant?

I am not in a position to give that information now.

That is what I want made clear. The former Minister for Local Government did give a definite undertaking that a 60 per cent. grant would be available.

The Deputy could not answer that himself.

A public undertaking was given by the previous Minister for Local Government that a 60 per cent. grant would be given. Is that undertaking withdrawn?

There was not much evidence that the former Minister for Local Government was going to honour that undertaking.

Why does the Parliamentary Secretary say that?

In view of the fact that in the following year's estimates not one penny for these projects——

There was a token vote, but it was dropped.

Of £10.

That is far from 60 per cent. of the cost.

It was the only way to do it, in view of not knowing the amount.

I asked the Parliamentary Secretary for information which I have found it impossible to get. I think the case made by the Parliamentary Secretary was a very bad one. I want to say, however, that I have very considerable sympathy with him. He may not believe that. I should hate, myself, to be sent into the House by colleagues to make such a rotten case. I cannot believe that the Parliamentary Secretary had his heart in it. He said what he was told to say and realised himself that it was likely to be regarded as a very depressing pronouncement by everybody in this House, including the Deputies sitting behind him. I want, particularly, to contest the point of view which he put forward that there is no urgency for the provision here of facilities of this character. I cannot understand in the least why there should have to be any list of priorities where there is no obvious conflict in the performance of such work. The Housing Department of the Dublin Corporation will not, surely, be called upon to undertake the construction of swimming pools whether on the sea coast or indoor and, in any event, if there is a strain upon the resources of that Department of the Corporation—and I hope there is—the resources of the country are adequate enough to provide some additional engineers and supervisory staff to enable more work to be done. As I understand it, the Dublin Corporation, the Dun Laoghaire Borough Council, and a number of other local authorities throughout the country are willing to undertake a proportion of the expense of providing swimming pools in their areas. Most of them are reluctant to undertake the whole of the expense. There was considerable pressure upon the Government for the granting of financial aid in the form of capital grant which the previous Government had received sympathetically and it resulted in a decision to make such assistance available.

To the extent of £10.

To the extent of 50 per cent., or more, of the capital cost.

To the extent of £10.

If the Minister is trying to build up an argument on that, I would point out that it would be quite impossible for any Minister or Government to come to the Dáil with an estimate for an unknown amount. As the Parliamentary Secretary has very rightly pointed out, the cost of constructing swimming pools in Dublin or Dún Laoghaire could not be determined until the plans had been completed and approved. What was done was that a token vote was submitted to the Dáil in order to get from the Dáil approval of the principle of the provision of State funds for that purpose. I gather that they will not be made available for that purpose—that the Parliamentary Secretary's instructions are that the offer made by the previous Minister is withdrawn, at any rate, for the present.

I did not say that.

Anybody who listened to the Parliamentary Secretary must certainly have understood him to say that there will not be a capital grant and that, in fact, the Government would rather disapprove of local authorities undertaking works of this character when other schemes should be receiving their attention. I would agree at once that if there was the slightest risk to them that the construction of houses, the repair of footpaths—which, I think, the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned—or the provision of public amenities of any kind for general use were to be impeded or delayed by the undertaking of work in connection with the construction of swimming pools, then he has a case.

I do not think that may be so. Deputy Belton referred to the fact that the only respectable swimming-pool in the country at the present time was constructed in a very short period by private enterprise at Butlin's Holiday Camp. Surely the energy and the organising ability that went into that work could be reproduced by local authorities or by voluntary associations interested in the development of swimming, assisted by local authorities.

May I say, also, that I was not in the least impressed by the figures read by the Parliamentary Secretary concerning the difference between income and expenditure at Tara Street Baths or the Cork City Baths or at certain other places? The objection to these places is that they are unsuitable for general public use. They are not likely to attract the patronage which would ensure revenue likely to be equal to the expenditure. I do not want to widen the scope of this debate beyond the particular form of sport mentioned in the motion, but if the speech made here by the Parliamentary Secretary indicates a general attitude to purely cultural developments such as Deputy Collins and Deputy Belton had in mind in this motion, then the outlook for them is very bad indeed.

The Government should give some positive indication of its desire to encourage local authorities and voluntary organisations to go ahead with this work. If they do not think they can afford to give the 60 per cent. capital grant which the previous Minister for Local Government offered, even 10 per cent. or 20 per cent. capital grant would at least constitute a sign of definite and positive encouragement that would be worth something. To speak in the purely negative way in which the Parliamentary Secretary has spoken—in which, no doubt, he was instructed to speak—indicates an approach which is contrary to that which we think the Dáil would like to see.

Therefore, I would urge upon the Parliamentary Secretary that he should go back to his Minister and to the Government and ask them to reconsider their whole attitude to this matter. I think that the amount of money which the Government would be likely to be called upon to provide this year or next year because of a more positive policy would not amount to very much but, whatever the amount, I think the Government can assume there will be no opposition in the Dáil to its provision and, in so far as it may involve any additional charge upon the people, I think the people would very gladly accept it.

As a swimmer, I have much pleasure in supporting Deputy Collins in this motion. For the last four or five years we have been agitating in this House for the provision of swimming pools. I was rather disappointed with the Parliamentary Secretary's reply. Nobody wants to see swimming pools being given priority over housing. That is merely drawing a red herring across the track. I and other members of the Fianna Fáil Party had been agitating for the provision of swimming pools in built-up areas. Deputy MacEntee, when he was Minister for Local Government, gave the matter sympathetic consideration.

He did not give any money.

There was a definite commitment to give 60 per cent. of the total cost. Is that denied?

Deputy Collins, as a swimmer, has raised this matter. The Irish Amateur Swimming Association have been trying to get something done in this matter. It is very petty on the part of the present Government to say that priority must be given to housing. Are they going to leave the residents of Drimnagh and Crumlin without bathing facilities? They should go ahead with the plan that had been mooted by the Dublin Corporation and implement the promise made by the former Minister for Local Government to subsidise it. As far as athletics are concerned, unfortunately, we have not enough of them in this country.

Athletics do not arise.

I regard swimming as a form of athletics. It is a type of exercise that can be highly recommended. As a child, I was delicate, and the local doctor recommended me to join a swimming club. I did so and my health improved. I trust the Parliamentary Secretary realises that the previous Government had an estimate of £25,000 for the promotion of national athletics.

It does not arise on the motion.

I am surprised that the Parliamentary Secretary should side-track this matter I thought that here we had a man who would support us all the way. I find that in every statement he made he was merely drawing a red herring across the trail. We want these facilities for the working classes who cannot afford to travel to the sea. We want to bring these facilities to their door in the built-up areas. The records of the House will show that I have repeatedly spoken on this matter. I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to ask his Government to reconsider this matter. These facilities are essential to the health of the people. If these facilities are provided, it will give the Amateur Swimming Association an opportunity to produce swimmers who can compete in international events. There are several swimming pools in built-up areas in English and Continental cities. We should take an honest view of this matter and stop this small talk about priorities. The Dublin Corporation have acquired two sites in Crumlin and Drimnagh. I regard this matter as of public importance.

I feel that the Parliamentary Secretary's reply to this debate is pathetic. It is worse than that: it is regrettable. I find myself in the most extraordinary position that I have been in since I came into this House in being in complete and absolute agreement with Deputy Lemass and Deputy P.J. Burke.

There is something wrong.

No. Even a kitten opens his eyes after a while.

Whether Deputy MacEntee made a token promise or a real promise, at least it was an earnest of something that would give hope and encouragement to any person who was interested in the development of swimming.

The Parliamentary Secretary took pleasure in deliberately distorting what I said. He seemed to imply that I stood up here to advocate the case on the basis of the Irish Amateur Swimming Association. I should like to disabuse his mind of that and tell him what I did say—that it would not be difficult to satisfy the essential needs of the Amateur Swimming Association in places such as Dublin, Galway, Cork and Limerick where you have a big population and where a swimming pool could be used in many ways other than for purely competitive training. But I did say that every local authority, every county council and every corporation should be made to envisage a swimming pool and swimming facilities in every scheme they have for built-up areas or for the development of built-up areas as they at present exist.

Deputy Lynch took up the point that I inadvertently missed in moving my motion. Life-saving could be readily and simply taught even to the most inefficient swimmer. You do not want to be a proficient exponent of the crawl or any competitive type of swimming to be made an efficient and effective unit in the saving of life around our coast or on our rivers. But a miserable, niggardly, narrow conception both in mind and outlook on this problem, which says that this is a matter that should be on the priority list, is something that I refuse to stomach. The sooner we realise in this country that when we are dealing with the planning and development of areas swimming pools and swimming facilities for the people are as essential as any of the other services that have to be supplied the better for ourselves, and when comprehensive schemes are contemplated the Parliamentary Secretary or his engineers or all his Departments need not try to put across me flamboyant and exaggerated ideas of expense.

In seconding this motion, Deputy Belton spoke of the swimming pool in Butlin's holiday camp at Mosney. I have said many hard things about that camp, but I will say that for £2,000 there was provided in that camp an outdoor swimming pool the like of which is not to be seen anywhere in this country. Where there is a water supply available or any kind of a reasonable seashore, the local authorities with little expense could provide reasonable and adequate swimming facilities. Talking astronomically of millions made Deputy Belton smile. As a builder, he turned to me and said: "If they gave me a million quid I would give them a national stadium for every game that could be played."

I urge on the Parliamentary Secretary and on the Government that the finding of one gleam of virtue in a decaying Fianna Fáil system, finding one gleam of hope is something that they should cling on to. No matter what Deputy MacEntee's failings might have been, and I am one who considered them manifold, whether great credit is to go to him or not, at least we should stick to his idea of trying to encourage local authorities to develop swimming pools and swimming facilities by making available a 60 per cent. grant, and more if possible, in order to encourage the provision of these facilities. If there is no more hope to be held out for the future of swimming in this country than that held out by the Parliamentary Secretary, I say that he is going to have many a thorny argument with me on every opportunity that I get on this subject, because I think the Government are failing in their national responsibility if they do not realise the necessity for the immediate encouragement of local authorities to provide these facilities in order to ensure a better standard of health, a better spirit in our young people, and above all, the courage that will obviate loss of life by drowning.

Motion put and agreed to.

Motion No. 7 is not being taken. Motion No. 6, I understand, is not being taken owing to the transport position.

I take it these motions are withdrawn?

No. 6 is withdrawn. The Deputies in whose names it stands are not ready to take No. 7.

Then it goes back to the end of the list?

And we lose our priority.

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