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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Mar 1949

Vol. 114 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Children Amendment Bill, 1949—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This is a Bill for the purpose of dealing with a very simple matter, but a very difficult matter. It is a Bill which has been particularly difficult to draft. The position is that a youthful offender who is 12 years of age and under 17 and who is convicted, whether on indictment or by a district court, of an offence punishable in the case of an adult with penal servitude or imprisonment, may be sent to a reformatory school, in addition to and in lieu of any other punishment. Then, again, young persons are committed to an industrial school for begging; for being found wandering or destitute; if their parents are neglectful; for nonattendance at schools; if they are known to be frequenting evil company, or if they are living in circumstances dangerous to their moral well-being. There is no minimum age of committal. The maximum age of committal is 15 and the maximum age of retention is 16 but, in certain circumstances, on the representation of the manager of the school that it is desirable to keep the child for another year, namely, until 17, the Minister may authorise the retention of the child for the year.

Now the necessity for this Bill arises in the first place in connection with young girls under 15 who are known to have been sexually contaminated or who are living in circumstances dangerous to their moral character. As the law is at present, these girls cannot be committed to reformatory schools because they have not been convicted of any indictable offence. They may be committed to industrial schools, but the managers of those schools either refuse to accept them or, if they accept them, they refuse to retain them. Where there is a child of that particular kind who cannot be dealt with as a reformatory case and can only be dealt with as an industrial case we want to have some means for dealing with that child where there is a refusal by the industrial school to take it or where, as Deputies will admit, it is undesirable that it should be put into an industrial school. After special consultation with the religious authorities, there is a particular school provided for in this Bill and the Bill is for the purpose of being able to commit to this particular school a child who normally would be committed to an industrial school but who, by reason of sexual contamination or contact of one kind or another, it is undesirable should be placed there, but nevertheless has to be put in a place where it will be properly trained and properly taken care of. The authorities of the school to which this Bill refers are particularly skilled in work of this kind and, as I say, the Bill is intended to provide machinery for getting out of that very difficult but easily understood difficulty.

I take it the Minister will make provision for adequate and frequent inspection of this particular school?

The school is a reformatory school and in that way is open to inspection.

Subject to inspection.

There are people with a very long tradition handling cases of this kind.

While I accept that in a general way I am always anxious that there should be authority in the Minister to inspect so as to ensure, in so far as he can, that the treatment accorded to those subjects is suitable treatment. This problem is a serious one. I can see that it is not a matter to be dealt with by the Minister. He is concerned only, so to speak, with the accommodation for people dealt with by law, and they come under the control of another Minister. I agree with the Minister that the matter is complicated and difficult, and that it is wise to segregate these particular people from those others in the industrial schools. I think that is a wise thing to do. Subject to the question which I asked the Minister at the outset, I am strongly in favour of this Bill.

Mar dúirt an tAire, is dóigh liom gur Bille tábhachtach agus ceist thábhachtach í seo, gí go bhféadfaí a rá, mar dúirt sé, gur ceist shimplí í freisin. Tuigim na deacrachta atá ins an scéim. Ins an gcéad dul síos, caithfí áit faoi leith d'fháil do na cailíní seo, mar is cailíní atá i gceist. Ní bhíonn mórán cailíní ins na scoileanna ceartúcháin sa tír seo—buachaillí is mó a bhíonn iontu—ach thárlaíonn go bhfuil ceist speisialta, ceist moráltachta i gcás na gcailíní; agus cuireann lucht ceannais na hEaglaise an-spéis ins an gceist seo, chomh maith le lucht an Rialtais. Sílim go bhfuil socrú ceart déanta agus, mar dúirt an tAire, nach bhfuil aon aimhreas nó aon ghá go mbeadh aimhreas ar aon Teachta ach go bhfuighidh na cailíní seo gach cúram is ceart a thabhairt dóibh ins an scoil nua seo. Tá an Bord atá i mbun na hoibre an-oilte agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil ard-mholadh ag dul dóibh. Tá ard-mholadh ag dul, ní hamháin don Ord seo, ach d'Oird eile a thugann suas a mbeatha ar son cailíní bochta mar seo, chun iad a shábháil agus a chur ar bhealach a leasa; agus béidir obair agus fostaíocht d'fháil dóibh san am le theacht. Ach bíonn na cailíní seo lag-intinneach agus caithfimid bheith ag brath ar na mná oilte tuigsionacha atá i mbun na hoibre, faoi an rud is ceart a dhéanamh chun iad a leigint amach nó iad a choimeád. Níl an tAire ag iarraidh ach iad a choiméad go mbeid 17 mbliana d'aois. Cheap mise go raibh cead aige iad a choimeád go dtí 18 bliana d'aois. Nuair a bhí an Criminal Law Amendment Act faoi dhíospóireacht anseo, cheap a lán daoine go mba chóir an aois d'ardú go dtí 18 mbliana nó níos mó.

Níl an chomhacht sin agam.

Má tá am ag an Aire breathnú ar an Acht sin, cuimhneoidh sé go raibh tuairmí ag daoine go mba chóir an aois d'ardú agus má bhí aon bhunús leis an tuairim sin, tá an aois 17 mbliana ró íseal. Ní hé sin le rá go mba chóir gach duine a choiméad tar éis na haoise sin, ach go mbeadh discréid ag an Aire iad a choimeád, dá gceapadh sé gurb é sin an rud ceart le déanamh. Sé an deacracht, is dóigh liom, a bhí ins an scéal, nach raibh aon tslí as ach na cailíní seo a thabhairt ós comhair na cúirte. An bhféadfaí an cheist a láimhseáil gan teacht isteach sa chúirt ar chor ar bith? Chun duine a choimeád caithfear é a choimeád do réir dlí, ach cén nós imeachta is fearr chun greim d'fháil orthu agus iad a choimeád in áit in a dtabharfaí cúram ceart dóibh, agus iad d'oiliúnt agus a chur ar bhealach a leasa. Do réir an Bhille anois, caithfí iad a thabhairt ós comhair na cúirte.

Do réir an Bhille caithfí iad a thabhairt ós comhair na cúirte—Alt 58 ( ) Bille na Leanaí, 1908. Sé sin le rá, má tá cailín in a cónaí nó ar lóistin i dtig, nó i gcuid de thig, atá á úsáid chun críocha mí-mhorálta, nó má déantar in aon tslí eile ar bith coir in a coinne nó má tá sí i gcuntúirt ó thaobh moráltachta, d'fhéadfaí í a thabhairt ós comhair na cúirte. Caithfí fianaise a thabhairt agus sé mo thuairim gurb é an trioblóid is mó a bhaineas leis—ón gcuimhneamh atá agamsa ar an scéal— go bhfuil sé ar an duine a thugann an cailín ós comhair na cúirte fianaise a thabhairt a chruthós don Giúistís go bhfuil an cailín i gcontúirt. Más rud é go bhfuil feall nó coir déanta i gcoinne an chailín is dócha go mbeadh an Giúistís cinnte go leor ansin go bhfuil cúis mhaith aige chun ordú a dhéanamh chun í a chur i scoil cheartúcháin. Tá mé ag caint anois faoi chailín nach ndearnadh coir ach go ndearna duine éigin coir in a coinne. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé soiléir ó Uimh. 4 gur féidir gach cailín a ndéanfaí coir in a coinne, coir mhí-mhorálta, coir ionnsú ins an tslí sin, a chur ann ach bfhéidir go mbeadh an Giúistís sásta. Faoi Alt 58 (e) den Phríomh Acht de Bhille na Leanaí, má dhéanann athair coir i gcoinne cailín, iníon dó féin, caithfí na cailíní eile a thógaint uaidh agus iad a chur i scoil cheartúcháin. Níl mé sásta, i gcás cailín ar bith a ndéanann aon duine ar bith coir in a coinne, go bhfuil sé soiléir gur féidir an cailín sin, gan amhras ar bith, a chur i scoil cheartúcháin. Sin pointe amháin.

An dara pointe, cás cailíní nach bhfuil sé cinte, nó nach féidir fianaise d'fháil, go ndearnadh coir in a gcoinne ach go bhfuil siad i gcuntúirt—sé sin go mbíonn droch-chomhluadar leo, go mbíonn siad ag dul le fir, abair, nach bhfuil cáil mhaith orthu agus go bhfuil tuairim láidir ag na Gardaí—ón eolas atá acu faoin áit in a gcónaíonn na cailíní, na tuistí atá acu—an saghas slí bheatha agus an chaoi ina bhfuil rudaí sa bhaile. Gí go mbeadh an t-eolas sin ar fad ag na Gardaí agus nach bhfuil aon amhras orthu, b'fhearr liomsa nach mbeadh na Gardaí ann in aon chur ach ní féidir liom a fheiscint cé eile a thiubhras na cailíní ós comahir na cúirte. Má thugann na Gardaí an cailín ós comhair na cúirte, bíodh is go bhfuil siad cinnte in a n-aigne féin go bhfuil sí i gcuntúirt, agus nach mbeidh aon deireadh leis an scéal ach an taon deireadh amhain má leanann sí sa tslí sin—gí nach féidir a rá go bhfuil na tuistí go dona amach is amach ó thaobh moráltachta, san am chéanna nach dtugann siad aire cheart do na leanaí agus nach ndéanann siad na leanaí a cheartú agus go ligeann siad amach iad san oíche agus go mbíonn siad i ndroch-chomhluadar agus mar sin de—an mbeadh an Giúistís sásta le fianaise na nGardaí? Ní féidir leis na Gardaí a rá ach: "Támuid cinnte—ón méid eolais atá againn, faoin tslí a mhaireann tuistí an chailín seo—bféidir nach bhfuil tuistí ar bith ag an gcailín—agus ón droch-chomhluadar in a mbíonn sí agus ón tslí a dtéann sí mórthimpeall agus mar sin de—go bhfuil sí i gcuntúirt." B'fhéidir go ndéarfadh an gíúistís: "Tá sé sin ceart go leor ach ar an taobh eile má deireann A. B, nó C gur cailín macánta í agus nach bhfuil aon chuntúirt ann di, níl mé sásta, gí go bhfuil an t-eolas sin ag na Gardaí, an cailín a chur ins an scoil cheartúcháin seo." Má tugtar cailín ós comhair na cúirte agus má cuirtear in a leith gur cailín den toaghas sin í go mba cheart í a chur i scoil mar seo, ní deas an rud é don chailín nó dá gaolta ná d'éinne a mbeadh suim aige inti. Níor mhór do na Gardaí bheith lán-chinnte i dtaobh an scéil. Conas a bheadh an scéal ag na Gardaí, o thaobh an dlí, dá n-abradh an Giúistís nach raibh an ceart acu agus nach raibh an fhianaise a thug siad deimhnitheach a dóthain, nach bhfuil sé sásta breith a thabhairt? Nach mbeadh na Gardaí féin i gcuntúirt ansin? B'féidir go dtiubharfaí ós comhair na cúirte iad faoi dhrochcháil a thabhairt don chailín. Tuigim na deachrachtaí go maith agus nílim ag iarraidh sin a mheabhrú don Aire.

Sa gcéad dul síos, an bhfuil sé soiléir, nó an mbeidh sé soiléir, go ndéanfar aon leasú ar an mBille sar rithfear é sa Dáil? An mbeidh sé de cheart ag an nGiúistís cailín a ndéanfaí aon choir go mí-mhóralta in a coinne a chur sa scoil cheartúcháin gan aon amhras a bheith ina taobh. Sa gcás eile, an féidir an scéal a dhéanamh níos láidre ná seo ionas gur leor go rachaidh na Gardaí ós comhair na cúirte agus go nabróidh siad go bhfuil an tuairim sin acu? Mar, má thagann siad ós comhair na cúirte i gcás mar seo ní thiocfadh siad, is dócha, muna mbeadh siad cinnte faoin eolas a bheadh acu. Dá ndiúltaíodh an Giúistís dóibh ansan is cuma cén chuntúirt a bheadh ann don chailín muna ndéanfaí coir in a coinne, nó rud éigin uafásach mar sin, níorbh fhéidir leis an nGiúistís í a choiméad. Dearfaidh an Giúistís: "Caithfidh sibh fianaise a thabhairt dom nach bhfuil aon amhras ach go bhfuil an cailín seo i gcúntúirt ó thaobh mímhoráltachta." Ach an féidir leis an Dáil an tAlt a dhéanamh níos láidre ionas go mbeadh lán-díscréid ag an nGiúistís i gcás mar seo? Nílim a rá go mba cheart don Ghiúistis é sin a dhéanamh—an cailín a chur sa scoil cheartúcháin—muna mbeadh sé lán-chinnte in a aigne féin faoin scéal. Is féidir liom a thuiscint go mbeadh Gardaí, ar thaobh amháin, agus fianaise á thabhairt acu agus, ar an taobh eile, duine a rá gur cailín macánta í—mar uaireanta bíonn daoine sásta é sin a dhéanamh mar bíonn trua acu do dhaoine óga a bhíos i dtrioblóid.

Ní hé go bhfuil aon mhailís iontu, ná go bhfuil aon droch-rud againn, a bhí ins na tíortha eile buíochas le Dia, ins an tír seo, ach béidir go mbéadh sé simplí, rud beag lag-intinneach. Ar dtús, cheapamar go bhféadfaí an rud a láimhseáil ón taobh sin, go bhféadfaí a rá gur saghas galair intinneach, nó duine ar bith lag in a intinn, agus i gcás daoine mar sin, d'fhéadfadh daoine mí-chearta greim d' fháil orthu agus iad a bhreathnú ar fad. Nilim cinnte go bhféadfaí iad a leigheas ins an tslí sin. Dá bhféadfaí iad a leigheas ó thaobh leighis, do réir nós imeachtaí na ndochtúirí, shábhálfadh sé an cheist ar fad an cailín a thabhairt ós comhair na cúirte agus, cé go mbíonn obair na cúirte príobháideach, d'fhéadfaí gan aon tuairisc a chur ins na páipéir. De gháth ní tugtar ainmneacha na ndaoine óga mar sin. Mar sin fhéin, chím go mbeidh trioblóid orthú.

Ba mhaith liom freisin an cheist a chur ar an Aire an bhfuil sé sásta go bhfuil lán-chumhacht aige—is dócha go bhfuil, mar rinne mé fhéin é—cailín a aistríú ó scoil go scoil eile. Mar gheall ar an gCeist i gcoitinne, cé go mbéidir nach féidir an rud a oibriú faoin Roinn Sláinte, is dóigh liom go bhfuil baint idir an saghas seo coire agus ceisteanna mórálacha maidir le daoine a bhéas lag-intinneach, idir bhuachaillí agus cailíní; níl aon aimhreas ach go bhfuil laige éicint san intinn acu agus tá siad tugtha don rud seo, agus níl aon leigheas air ach iad a chur ar chúram na ndochtúirí. Tá daoine ins gach tír, daoine níos eolgasaí ná mise, agus ceapann siad nach féidir an rud a leigheas ar chor ar bith tré phríosún tacht agus pionós den tsórt sin, ach caithfí é leigheas trí chúram ceart a thabhairt dóibh, agus trí freastal orthu díreach ar nós daoine a mbeadh aon ghalar eile orthu agus cúram ag dul dóibh da bharr.

Nuair a bheas an cheist—daoine lag-intinneacha, daoine óga—á scrúdú, chun a fháil amach anbféadfai scéimeanna níos fearr a chur ar fáil doibh ó thaobh oideachais, béidir go mbeadh slí ag an Aire breathnú isteach ins an taobh sin den scéal. Ba cheart socrú faoi leith a dhéanamh le deontais a thabhairt don scoil. Ní bheidh mórán cailiní ins an scoil ach beidh dothain mar sin féin. Sílim nach ceart go mbeadh na mná rialta i mbun na hoibre—is cuma fiche nó seisear cailín ann, tá an obair chéanna ar mná rialta, tá a gcuid ama ar fad tugtha don obair sin. Caithfidh siad úirlisí d'fháil agus caithfidh siad an teach a choimeád i gceart agus gach rud a bhaineas le cothabháil an tí d'íoc. Is dóigh liom nach bhfuil na gnáth-dheontais sáthach mór, agus caithfidh an tAire—más féidir in aon chor é—íocaíocht a thabhairt ina leith, ní do réir capita ach do réir na gcostas reatha a bhaineas leis an teach agus saghas block grant a thabhairt dóibh ins an tslí sin.

I want to say quite clearly to Deputy Cowan that there is official and competent medical inspection of this particular school. That inspection is carried out by competent persons, and by qualified medical persons. Any doubts that the Deputy may have on that score can be laid completely at rest.

I gcás na ndaoine óga a bheas ins an scoil seo, mar a dúirt mé leis an Teachta Ó Comhain déanfaidh doctúirí an scrúdú.

Deputy Derrig raised a number of points with regard to the various types of cases that may have to be dealt with in this particular way. I would like to have the simple idea in this Bill understood. We want to get the basis of our scheme clearly and simply established before we say that it would be desirable to go any further in the matter. I have no reason to think that there is any necessity at the moment to go any further. This Bill does not provide that any person will be dealt with, except a person who in the absence of it would be dealt with by a district justice and be put into an industrial school. The Deputy speaks of the possibility of a young person having been sinned against. I think it would be most undesirable, because a person was sinned against, that, contrary to the wishes of the parents, that person should be taken and put either into an industrial or reformatory school. Deputies can see how undesirable it would be to make new offences. What is being arranged in the Bill is that where young people are committed to an industrial school or, if convicted, to a reformatory school, if they are of a type that need to be segregated, they can be put into this school. I think that is all we want at the present time. There may be cases in which young people and their parents would desire that a young person, in particular circumstances, would get the protection of an institution of this kind—that they would be able to get it without going before the courts —but nothing in the present situation has suggested to me that I should make provision for that yet. I am simply clearing the ground so that everything will be ready for any changes that experience may dictate will have to be brought about.

The Deputy also asked about the grants to this particular school. Special grants will be made in regard to this particular school, which is a reformatory school, on the understanding that a very small number of persons are dealt with in the school. As regards the cost of upkeep, the normal grants will be paid. The grants are made on a specially designed notional figure so as to give fair play to the institution. I do not intend to submit any amendment to this Bill—I say that in reply to questions that were raised by Deputy Derrig—except in line 17 where a verbal omission has to be rectified. In Committee, I propose to ask to be allowed to insert the word "any" so that the line will read "as adapted by or under any enactment".

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

In view of the nature of the Bill, Deputies will understand that there is not very much that can be discussed on it.

It would be a rather difficult Bill to deal with in Committee, and I do not know that if we were to do so we would be very much wiser in the end. I cannot really say whether it would be necessary to send it to a committee. I can see the difficulty the Minister has with regard to the question of seeming to make new offences. I do not quite feel that I am in a position to put down the amendments that I would like. Perhaps the Minister would look at Section 58, sub-section (1), paragraph (g) of the 1908 Act and satisfy himself as to whether that covers the cases completely or not. I do not know if the Minister has had the advantage of a chat with the justice in the juvenile court in Dublin, and whether the justice feels that the Bill will cover the difficulties that I have referred to—that he will have discretion in the matter.

Do I understand that the Deputy thinks it is undesirable that the provisions of Section 58 (1) should remain? That section reads as follows:—

"Any person may bring before a petty sessional court any person apparently under the age of 14 years who... (g) is lodging or residing in a house or the part of a house used by any prostitute for the purposes of prostitution, or is otherwise living in circumstances calculated to cause, encourage, or favour the seduction or prostitution of the child..."

There is that power at the present time and that case can be brought before a district court.

The point is whether the Guards will be able to satisfy the court. If the Minister is satisfied that the Guards will, in fact, be able to deal adequately with all these cases, well and good, but I have doubts. I am not in a position, and I would fear, to suggest an amendment. A discussion with the district justice and the Gardai is all I could suggest.

I would hesitate to remove the district justice from any adjudicating machinery that would have to deal with a case like it. If it is the Deputy's suggestion that the Minister should deal with the Guards directly and eliminate the district justice, I think the Deputy will understand that that would not be a judicious approach.

There is regular machinery there which appertains to the Department of Justice. There is a juvenile court, a special justice and probation officers, and possibly there is some police officer who deals specially with this matter. If the Minister has not consulted with them regarding the particular clause I read out—it is very hard to discuss this in an abstract way—I suggest he might try to get the people in the Department of Justice to get the opinions of these people as to whether this will cover the matter.

I would like the Deputy to explain further what is in his mind. Perhaps we could fix the Committee Stage for to-morrow, and take all the remaining stages of the Bill to-morrow also.

The Minister has not answered my question. If the Minister assures me that he has consulted with these other people and that this is the best that can be done, there is nothing more I can do about it.

I have not attempted in any way to complicate the delicate yet simple problem that I find myself presented with. That is, that there are certain people committed to industrial schools who will not be received in industrial schools because of certain sexual complications. This Bill proposes that they will be dealt with in an institution adequately and admirably organised to deal with them. I have not set out to examine a wider area or look for a bigger power. It seems to me, from the Deputy's suggestion, that there is a condition of affairs that requires to be got after by more effective machinery for the purpose of dealing with people who may be involved in undesirable company or undesirable habits or in criminal habits of a particular kind and he is looking for better machinery for getting after these. That is not the purpose of this Bill and I would not regard it as my function to endeavour to see whether there was such a problem there or whether there should be better machinery to deal with it.

I am providing better machinery to deal with a definite problem which does arise. I have not heard it suggested that the courts that are dealing with these cases, or the police side of things dealing with these cases and bringing forward cases for industrial or reformatory school treatment, are not doing their work. I have not had the case made that the machinery either on the district court side or the Guards' side is not doing its work. I would ask Deputy Derrig to realise that I am dealing with a particular problem that is within my province. I know it is there and can be dealt with in a simple way, and I would ask him not to ask me to undertake the functions either of the Minister for Justice, as the representative of the police, or as the representative of the juvenile or district courts, and begin to look for a different problem and deal with it in some different kind of way. I think the Deputy is extending the range of the problem dealt with in this Bill.

Committee Stage fixed for Thursday, March 10th.

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