Vol. 116 No. 6
I move:—
That a sum not exceeding £134,100 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of Public Works (1 and 2 Will. 4, c. 33, secs. 5 and 6; 5 and 6 Vict., c. 89, secs. 1 and 2; 9 and 10 Vict., c. 86, secs. 2, 7 and 9; etc.).
Following the practice in previous years, I propose to take Votes 9 and 10 together.
Vote 9 bears the salaries and expenses of the administrative, executive and technical staffs of the Office of Public Works, which is the Office responsible for the administration of Vote 10.
Vote 10 provides the necessary funds for the purchase of sites and buildings for State purposes, for the erection, maintenance and furnishing of the Government offices and other State-owned premises throughout the country, for arterial drainage and other engineering works, for the erection and improvement of national schools, for the erection of major military buildings, for the maintenance of State-owned parks and State harbours, and for a number of minor activities.
The gross expenditure under Vote 9 is estimated at £5,263 more than in 1948-49, but an increase of £5,793 in receipts under the Appropriations-in-Aid sub-head is anticipated making the net Vote £530 less than in 1948/49.
The increase in gross expenditure is almost entirely under sub-head A— salaries, wages and allowances, due to the revised consolidated Civil Service pay, and to proposed reorganisation of the secretary's branch, the heating and electrical section of the architectural branch and the recruitment of additional staff for the marine and arterial drainage divisions of the engineering branch.
The increase in estimated Appropri-ations-in-Aid is mainly attributable to the additional amount recoverable from Vote 10 in respect of the salaries and travelling expenses of engineering staff engaged on arterial drainage construction works.
In Vote 10, the Estimate for Public Works and Buildings shows an increase of £249,870 on the amount voted for 1948-49. The main increases are in the sums required for new works, drainage, the maintenance of engineering plant and machinery and the operation of the central engineering workshop and stores.
Expenditure last year on sub-head B —new works, alterations and additions —was £492,714, as compared with £299,950 for the previous year. The considerably increased expenditure last year was due partly to increased wage rates and to the better progress made with the various works owing to the improved situation in regard to supplies of materials. Of the total expenditure, £308,000 was in respect of grants for building and improvement of national schools, this amount being more than double the previous year's expenditure.
Expenditure on other new works last year was as far as possible confined to urgent works and to works which were in progress or in respect of which commitments had been entered into.
For 1949-50 we are providing for a total expenditure of £600,000 under sub-head B, being an increase of £115,000 on the amount voted in 1948-49 due mainly to the increased costs of labour and materials of which the full impact will be felt in 1949-50. The provision for building and improvement of national schools is increased from £250,000 to £300,000.
The provision for arterial drainage construction works is £156,000 being an increase of £87,000 on the amount voted last year. This provision is almost entirely in respect of the estimated net expenditure on the Brosna Catchment Drainage Scheme which is being carried out at present. Gross expenditure on this scheme, the total estimated cost of which is £1,080,000, is estimated to amount to £233,000 in 1949-50 as compared with £95,000 in 1948-49.
A scheme for the Glyde and Dee catchment areas has been designed and will shortly be exhibited. Provision for purchase of the necessary plant and machinery is made in the appropriate sub-head, K (1), and every effort is being made to expedite the commencement of drainage operations. A provision of £5,000 is being made for such works as may be found possible in 1949-50 and for expenses in connection therewith.
The amounts provided under the K sub-heads for the purchase and maintenance of plant and machinery for arterial drainage, dredging operations and other engineering works, are necessary to enable the plant and machinery to be brought up to and maintained at the level essential for economical and efficient output. The increase of £17,000 in the provision for sub-head K (2), for maintenance of engineering plant and machinery, is attributable to the increase in the number of excavating machines and to transport vehicles, etc., engaged on drainage and other engineering works. The increase of £22,200 in the provision for the central engineering workshop and stores (sub-head K (3)) is in respect of the purchase of machine tools and machine parts, the cost of which cannot be entirely recovered in 1949-50 by way of charges against the services on which they are intended to be employed.
The remaining sub-heads call for little comment. There is a decrease of £65,000 in the provision for sub-head A—purchase of sites and buildings, but expenditure under this sub-head is unpredictable. Maintenance and furnishing costs are still high but it has been considered feasible to make reductions of £25,000 and £11,000 in the sub-head C and D (1) provisions as compared with last year. The increase of £9,500 under sub-head E arises from the general increase in rents and rates and probable new commitments with regard to legations. The decrease of £124,190 in estimated Appropriations-in-Aid—sub-head L, is due mainly to the inclusion in last year's receipts of a fine of £120,000 paid by the Dublin Corporation in respect of the lease to them of the former Hibernian Military School premises in the Phoenix Park for hospital purposes.
I move that this Estimate be referred back. Deputies on all sides of the House will, I am sure, be surprised—having regard to the spate of propaganda to which we used to have to listen in years gone by —with regard to the delay in proceeding with arterial drainage. A short while after taking over Government last year we were treated to a display of propaganda on the initiation of the arterial drainage scheme on the Brosna. The entire Government was represented there in an effort to make all the political capital they could out of the implementation of that scheme. A new whistle was purchased to start operations but not a word was said by any of the spokesmen there to the effect that the scheme had been prepared by the previous Administration. Actually what happened was that the scheme was to have been put in force in the first week of April but, owing to the change of Government, it was deferred for two months more. It is about time another whistle was purchased, in case the old one is getting rusty, with a view to starting another scheme.
The next scheme, which was very far advanced in the course of preparation, was that for the Glyde and Dee in the counties of Monaghan, Meath and Louth. That scheme was pretty well advanced two years ago; yet, despite all the propaganda of the present Government and their spokesmen, little progress, if any, has been made towards implementing that scheme. Judging by the sum of £5,000 which is provided in the Book of Estimates this year for it, very little progress can be made during the course of the present year. It seems an extraordinary state of affairs, considering that many of the spokesmen of the present Government, when occupying these benches, seemed to think that drainage was a policy that could be gone ahead with without very much delay.
They are profiting by experience now: they know that the preparation of a drainage scheme is a pretty big job and that it takes considerable time. The Parliamentary Secretary did not refer to any other scheme. I wonder what has happened. I am sure that the staff of the Board of Works are as eager to do their job now as they were in the past and that they must be going ahead with the preparation of other schemes, but—for some reason, best known to himself, perhaps—the Parliamentary Secretary was discreetly silent in that connection.
A scheme was well under way in respect of the rivers in the North Kerry area. We have not heard a word from the Parliamentary Secretary about it. If greater progress is not made in the future than has been possible since the change of Government, then it will take a long time before arterial drainage is got properly under way and it will take a great many years before the people in the areas that are low down on the list of priorities will reap any benefit from drainage. Incidentally, in connection with drainage, I would say that we have so many schemes now, under the various Departments of State, that there will be a certain amount of confusion. The Board of Works is responsible for arterial drainage: some drainage and clearing of streams, etc., is being carried out under the minor employment and the rural improvements schemes and now the Department of Agriculture is entering into the field. A lot of people down the country will undoubtedly be confused —particularly in regard to smaller schemes—as to which of the various Departments of State will be responsible for carrying out certain of these works.
On the question of drainage in my constituency, I wish to state that I prepared this drainage scheme. At the time of the passing of the Fergus Act provision was made for the crection of sluice gates at Clarecastle. That is a good many years ago now, but, as far as we are aware, nothing has been done in the matter beyond placing gauges in the river to estimate the flow of the tide and so forth. Surely, after that period of time, the Commissioners of Public Works ought now be in a position to state what they propose doing in connection with that particular work if it is considered by the engineering experts concerned that the provision of these sluice gates would be a preventive against flood damage in the future. On a few occasions, in my memory, these banks have been burst by a combination of forces—the incoming tide with the western wind meeting the downcoming flow from upstream. If these gates had been there they would, very probably, have helped considerably in that situation. I hope that, before another Estimate under this heading is presented in this House, something will actually be done other than the placing of gauges in the river to know the rate of flow and the height of the river under certain conditions.
The Parliamentary Secretary is also responsible for the maintenance of public parks. I should like to know the intention of the Government in connection with the scheme for a garden of remembrance at Parnell Square. Is it the intention of the Government to proceed with the original proposal of having that place converted into a garden of remembrance in respect of the men who gave their lives in the fight for Irish freedom—or is it proposed to abandon that scheme and, if so, what is the alternative? Is the alternative to forget all about them— or are their memories not to be commemorated in the City of Dublin?
I notice that there is a token Vote of £10 for the provision of a short-wave broadcasting station. Here, at least, the Government are profiting by experience. They now realise that the much-criticised provision of a short-wave broadcasting station is very essential at the present time. However, they have not gone very far in the provision of money for that station although there is a token Vote which, I hope, will enable them to proceed with that work. I hope that the Government will speed up the erection of that station as much as possible. It is clearly obvious now, even to the present Government, how essential that work was. It is to be regretted that it has been delayed as a result of a Government decision for a period of well-nigh two years.
Another park which is under the jurisdiction of the Parliamentary Secretary is the public park at Killarney which was given as a present to the nation. At present, visitors are prohibited from driving in their cars through the park. Possibly, the local hackney-car owners are responsible for that situation. It is a pity, however, because it creates a bad impression amongst visitors if they have to park their cars on the roadside and go through the park on Shank's mare or drive in a hackney vehicle if they want to see the sights. The Parliamentary Secretary should look into that matter and see what can be done to facilitate visitors who have, perhaps, only a very limited time at their disposal in the district and the delay occasioned may upset their entire programme.
Turning again to my own constituency, about two years ago I drew the attention of the Office of Public Works to an ancient and historic ruin in the heart of County Clare— Leminagh Castle—which, so far as I know, has not yet been taken over by the Office of Public Works. It is one of the best preserved castles in that county and is of considerable historic importance. Recently, when passing by, I made it my business to examine it to see if the usual notice was on the wall intimating that it had been taken over by the Office of Public Works and I saw no such notice. I hope the Office of Public Works will proceed to take it over at once before it becomes an utter ruin. I remember a good many years ago passing another very old and historic castle near Ballivor, County Meath, which was occupied by Owen Roe's troops at the Battle of Portlester. I saw Meath County Council workmen taking down that castle for the purpose of using it as road material. Let us hope that the same fate does not await Leminagh Castle. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take note of my remarks and see that that historic ruin is preserved for the nation.
So far as drainage is concerned, I do not think many people in the country are worrying about it now, as there is a very considerable shortage of water in almost every county. I want to mention, however, the question of the erection of a Guards' barracks in Trim. I take it the Office of Public Works are responsible for the selection of the site for that barracks. I am not concerned with the shape of the barracks or its architectural design which seems to be perfect, but, if you tried, I do not think you could possibly discover a worse site. From the point of view of public security, it is 500 or 600 yards from the centre of the town on the road leading into Trim and it is completely isolated. It is overshadowed by an old jail which is in a half dilapidated condition, with the result that the sun does not shine on it until the evening. On the opposite side is King John's Castle which, in the morning, prevents the sun from shining on the barracks. As soon as the dry weather ceases, old Mother Boyne will, I am afraid, come in on the ground floor, because it appears to be under the level of the Boyne when in flood. The selection of that site was a gross mistake. I do not know who was responsible for it. I was under the impression that the barracks was to be built in the centre of the town. It may be argued that there was no available site there, but I believe that a site could have been found. There are three banks and several business houses and the main traffic is through the centre of the town. The people of that town should be given the protection that a Guards' barracks gives if it is situated in a proper place. If people met with a motor accident they would have considerable difficulty in locating the barracks. However, there is not very much use in talking about the matter now because the building is almost completed, but it is very unfortunate that it should be put in such a position.
I am glad to see that something like £100,000 more is being provided for the building of schools. A school is very badly wanted in the parishes of Oristown and Kells. I am not sure where the Office of Public Works or the manager have decided on erecting the school. I do know, however, that this matter has been going on for quite a number of years, and that there are children of nine and ten years of age in that district who have not yet gone to school, as the schools are too far away. If the school is erected in the parish of Oristown, it will be too far away from a certain number of children, and if it is erected in the parish of Kells, it will also be too far away for some children. In any event, the school has not yet been built.
A mile or two away there is a magnificent school which was built recently in Gibbstown. It was built for the migrants' colony set up there. Apparently, however, it has been forgotten about, as the paint is off all the doors and windows and it presents a most dilapidated appearance. I do not know who is responsible for the maintenance of the school, but it would be a good thing if some paint were put on the doors and the windows and it was tidied up generally, because it is a fine modern school, well situated, with good sanitary conditions and everything else. I am afraid, however, that it is rapidly going into decay.
There also seem to be a difficulty about the school in Rathcarne. It seems to be nobody's child. The Department of Education or the Office of Public Works should decide who is responsible for the unkeep of these schools. Incidentally, there is no water available for the Rathcarne school. All the wells which were made have collapsed. At present they are trying to find water there. I was told yesterday that they had gone down a couple of hundred feet but had got no water as yet. The colony there is a fairly large one. There are some 60 families in it, although most of the younger people have gone away. The children and the older people, however, are in an extremely bad way for water. That is not a matter, of course, for the Office of Public Works, but the maintenance of the schools is very likely their business. It would be a great pity if these schools were allowed to go into decay.
I should also like to direct attention to the condition of Bective Abbey, a very old and well-known abbey. Some time ago I happened to go through it. There are many long archways there and in one of them there is a very considerable bulge. The Office of Public Works might give some attention to that for fear it might collapse. On last Sunday there must have been 150 or 200 people passing in and out through those arches, and if this arch collapsed it would cause a very serious calamity.
In North Meath we are not concerned very much with drainage. We have so many drainage authorities at present that I am really puzzled and would not really know to whom I should appeal. I hope that position will be clarified in the near future. It would be a great thing to know exactly whom one could blame. One cannot blame the Parliamentary Secretary except for arterial drainage. His position seems to be fairly clear. I hope he will try and have a decision taken as to who is responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the Gibbstown and the Rathcarne schools.
The manager.
I do not think so. The manager, or the supposed manager of the Rathcarne school has already built a new one away from Rathcarne. The reason I mention that is that there may be some little bone of contention to be settled. It will be hardly fair to impose the upkeep and maintenance of that school on the manager because he has a new school built some distance away. It is a large school. Gibbstown is a large school, too.
If you decide to take the management away from him you will get into trouble.
The manager wants another new school of his own there and they have one in Rathcarne. I think the position is very clear. It does not matter to me who is going to manage it as long as someone is going to maintain it.
I avail of this opportunity for the space of two minutes to ask the Minister if his attention has been drawn to the stonework in the buildings just outside the door here. The stonework, which is of soft sandstone in the museum and in the National Library, is now crumbling away and we may be faced with heavy expenditure very shortly. Does the Board of Works intend to continue to use that soft sandstone in their buildings? Are they going to allow that soft sandstone to be used by Córas Iompair Éireann? I was asked to draw attention to this. We have all seen the ornamentation on the museum in Kildare Street. In our own grounds here you can see the weaknesses where portions are crumbling away into dust. I want to know when they are going to be removed in order to save the rest of the building. I avail of this opportunity to draw attention to the condition of the stonework and to ask at the same time whether that is the kind of stone that is going to be used in the Córas Iompair Éireann building in Store Street.
I should like to ask, the Parliamentary Secretary, in connection with the continuation of the main drainage scheme, whether he has had any advice from forestry experts as to the advisability of considering simultaneously with drainage, the planting of non-commercial trees, particularly in mountain areas where it is not possible to plant commercially valuable trees; whether, in the long run, the capital cost of non-commercial plantations, combined with main drainage, would be an advantage to the State. The Forestry Department, no doubt, have their own view about that. I have spoken with at least two forestry experts of other countries where this problem exists. Of course, without definite knowledge they would not be able to state the exact facts in regard to the situation here. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether, in connection with any review he has made, he has considered this matter.
Secondly, I should like to ask him whether he has any definite views on the fundamental drainage of the Shannon Basin. As the House is aware, the Drainage Commission reported firstly that the capital cost of building levées along the Shannon Basin would, in their view, be prohibitive and the value thus obtained would be uneconomic. There is the opposite point of view that, even if it was not economic, for the sake of the happiness and the conditions of living of the people along the Shannon, the work should be carried out. The Drainage Commission then went on to report that a modified scheme for deepening the channel between Athlone and Meelick at a pre-war cost of some £500,000 might prevent flooding, but that it would not prevent the most serious type of flooding which would occur in periods of abnormally bad weather. As the Parliamentary Secretary knows, there are two periods when flooding occurs along the Shannon, particularly in the Athlone, Roscommon and Offaly area—the winter flooding which does not affect adversely the interests of some people and affects adversely the interests of other riparian owners, and the summer flooding which takes place in August, preventing the removal of hay and a source of great disadvantage to riparian owners. I presume that the cost of deepening the Shannon, on the post-war basis, would be more than double the estimate of the commission. I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary what is his view on the matter. From memory, he answered a question addressed to him by a Deputy as to the value of opening the sluice at Meelick, where flooding took place. I think he replied that in the case of very bad weather it would not solve the problem. It might have effect when there was a heavy shower or a few days of rain, but in conditions such as existed for a considerable period from 1938 to 1947 the opening of that weir would not be entirely effective.
I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question already addressed to him by other Deputies. Has he arranged for any kind of coordination in connection with the various drainage schemes, either in operation or about to be put into operation? In North Longford a considerable amount of reclamation work was done under the previous Government's farm improvements scheme, and riparian owners along the tributaries to the Carulin, on account of sporadic bad weather, did not observe the constant increase in flooding along their banks, caused by both bog drainage and reclamation drainage, until a considerable period had elapsed. Then quite suddenly it became apparent that even in a time of normal rainfall the flooding was more serious. One of the results was the stoppage of drainage work as work that could be done under the farm improvements scheme in the North Longford area. If the Minister for Agriculture's reclamation scheme succeeds in areas such as these there will be farmers who will be affected by flooding but who may not appreciate the increase of flooding because of the fact that the weather varies from year to year. It may be rather hard for them to remember. It would be hard for them to know what is an increase of flooding on their particular holdings. Therefore, it would seem essential to create some kind of co-ordination machinery so that the Board of Works is immediately aware of the general effect of the reclamation scheme. Equally the other schemes, such as bog development and rural development schemes, should be dove-tailed into drainage operations, taken as a whole.
I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether, under the rural improvement scheme, the drainage of small schemes undertaken collectively by farmers is still possible or whether that is to be entirely replaced by the new reclamation scheme. I should also like to ask whether the bog development schemes will continue as before. I think I am not permitted to speak on bog development schemes on this Vote, because I understand they come under the Employment and Emergency Schemes Vote.
That is so, on Vote 11.
If the Parliamentary Secretary could possibly give the House some information on the coordination of drainage and some information as to his view on the Shannon problem, it would be of great interest to thousands of people living in those areas.
I wish to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary, the commissioners, the chief engineering officials and any other officials who may have any responsibility for the wonderful work that has been and is being carried out inside of a very short period on the Brosna drainage scheme. I was one of the Deputies who was privileged to be present when that scheme was started by the Taoiseach. About two weeks ago I had the opportunity of having another look at the wonderful work that has been carried out there within the past year. When that work is completed, as I am sure it will be in the near future, the Parliamentary Secretary and all those who had any responsibility for the preparation of the scheme and the carrying out of the work, can look back on a landmark in the history of the Board of Works. Before my visit to the Brosna drainage scheme, I had been under the impression that the Barrow held first place in the history of works carried out by the Department of Public Works. I think everybody who has seen the work on the Brosna will agree that it represents—I suppose that is due to the organisation of the machinery necessary —a wonderful improvement on the work previously carried out on the Barrow.
Within the last couple of months the workers employed on the Brosna scheme made representations for an improvement in their wages and working conditions. I want to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on the way in which he handled the dispute which arose there. His method was very unlike the previous methods of red tape that were employed for dealing with disputes of the kind. The Parliamentary Secretary took his courage in his hands. He went down personally and met the representatives of the workers concerned and settled the matter on the spot within a few hours. I, for one, welcome that departure from the previous red tape method of dealing with labour disputes affecting Government Departments. The Parliamentary Secretary has established a very welcome precedent. I hope that it is one which will be followed by any of his colleagues who may be concerned in disputes of that kind in the future.
I know that since the Parliamentary Secretary came into office he has been pressed with proposals put forward for an improvement of the River Nore and the drainage scheme and maintenance work to be carried out there. I know, of course, that pressure of the same kind comes to him from all over the country in connection with various schemes. In the case of the Nore, it is nearly a year since the Parliamentary Secretary met a deputation representing the three county councils concerned —North Tipperary, Laoighis and Kilkenny. Since that date very serious damage has been done in the Kilkenny end of the Nore. The three county councils, as well as the Deputies from the three constituencies concerned, would welcome a statement from the Parliamentary Secretary that he hopes—I trust he will be able to make such a statement—to do something in connection with the drainage and the clearance of that river at an early date. I was wondering whether the Parliamentary Secretary would be in a position to recommend to the Minister for Local Government that when the Local Authorities (Works) Bill is passed, a certain amount of preliminary work might be carried out on the Nore under that measure. I know, of course, that that is a matter which will call for consideration and decision by the engineering advisers to the Parliamentary Secretary. I hope, however, that he will be able to make a statement on the lines which I have indicated, so as to deal with a situation which involves the flooding of 1,600 acres of land every year. That flooding will continue until something is done by the Department. Perhaps if some preliminary work could be done on the Nore under the Works Bill it would prevent flooding of that kind occurring. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to say that, when the Works Bill becomes law, preliminary work can be undertaken on the Nore.
I have just a few words to say on the Estimate. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will expect me to refer to the Brick and Cashen drainage scheme in North Kerry. This is a scheme which badly requires to be done. Representations have been made to the Parliamentary Secretary by various parties with a view to having it carried out. I am personally aware that the Parliamentary Secretary himself went down to North Kerry during the local elections campaign and, I think, he left the people there under the impression that the scheme was to be carried out right away. I was not present myself to hear any pronouncement that may have been made by the Parliamentary Secretary, but I have been told that he gave the people concerned to understand that the scheme was to be commenced by the 1st of June this year. I do not know whether there is any foundation for that statement or not, but, apart entirely from whatever statement or statements that he may have made to the people down there on that occasion, I want to impress upon him——
I certainly made that one.
The Parliamentary Secretary made the statement that work would commence on the 1st of June of this year?
That is right.
Well, the fact remains that it was not commenced on the 1st of June this year.
I will tell the Deputy the reason why.
The people down there were so convinced that they were prepared to lay bets on it. However, I hope that very much time will not be allowed to elapse until work on the scheme is commenced, because of all the schemes that have been mentioned here I imagine that this is the most important one. No doubt every Deputy sees the importance of his own scheme, but in regard to this scheme that I speak of at least 100,000 acres of land are involved. When serious flooding takes place all that land is covered for several months, and it is some of the best land in the County Kerry. Having regard to that, I think that this is a scheme that should be given an early priority.
I do not know whether any Deputy has referred to the question of historical buildings. I think the time has arrived when the Office of Public Works should make a general survey of the country with a view to ascertaining what historical buildings require to be repaired and maintained. I know a few of them here and there; they appear to be nobody's concern.
I think it would be a national loss if some of those buildings were allowed to fall into ruin and decay. I would advise the Parliamentary Secretary and the Department to have a survey taken of all such buildings in the country.
Now, as regards national schools, I think that the amount that is being made available this year is £300,000, or £50,000 over the amount that was provided last year. I do not consider that a sufficient sum, having regard to the need there is for building schools in many parts of the country. I am aware there are schools in County Kerry that are not fit to house school children. There is one school particularly, within three miles of the village of Ballyduff, in a place called Ballincrossig, and I think it is one of the worst in the country from the point of view of repair. Perhaps later on I will give particulars of that school to the Parliamentary Secretary with a view to having the building reconstructed or a new school built on the same site or near it.
There are three Civic Guard barracks in County Wicklow which have been under consideration for a very long time and I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to speed up their erection. At Baltinglass the Guards are living in a very unsatisfactory building, one which ought to be replaced immediately. I understand there are difficulties in acquiring a suitable site. There is considerable difficulty in that area in that respect, but I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will endeavour to have that matter expedited.
I do not know whether the Board of Works are directly responsible for the erection of a school at Tynock, County Carlow, but there has been undue delay in carrying out the erection of that building there.
I think the Board of Works erect them, but they have not the initiative; that lies with the Minister for Education or the manager primarily.
The work of erection is actually in progress but the building has not been completed; it may be that the work has been set by contract.
I do not know what the intention of the Parliamentary Secretary was when he decided upon the erection of the platform outside this House. I do not think that even when it is completed it can be regarded as a monument or an ornament or indeed any improvement of this building from any point of view. It will not even facilitate parking arrangements for motor cars. As a matter of fact, I think it will cause a certain amount of inconvenience in the parking of cars.
I think the whole idea appears to be misconceived and I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what really was intended to be achieved by the erection of that platform—one cannot call it a monument and it is really difficult to describe it. From the point of view of convenience in parking cars it will be more of an obstruction than anything else. Something in the nature of an island in the centre of the lawn would be far more suitable.
With Deputy Byrne, I am rather interested in this, that most of the public buildings adjoining Leinster House are being defaced by reason of the deterioration of the stone on the facets of those buildings. The more important buildings that are so affected are the National Museum and the National Library. It is unfortunate that such an inferior type of stone was selected in the first place. It is to be hoped that the Board of Works will endeavour to ensure that no stone of that type will be used in the future in the construction of public buildings. I will remind the Parliamentary Secretary that there is in County Wicklow the best type of granite that is available anywhere in Europe. If he will turn his eyes in that direction he will find that he will get a reliable type of stone.
In the first fine rapture of opposition long ago one was inclined to view the Board of Works as public enemy No. 1. There was a period when one felt inclined to say that the Board of Works was the Board of No Works. It is now responsible for buildings running to £200,000, plus something over £1,000,000, and I feel that their work is extremely onerous and complicated. It varies from National Museums to drainage. From one's experience of it, one feels that it is most effective in the maintenance of all Government institutions. It does that work extremely well and it is hardly fair to blame it for certain shortcomings. The more one has experience of it the more one feels that it should get more help. It is a far more important Department than is usually thought when the Estimates are under consideration.
Owing to the pressure of work in other branches, drainage and so on, I felt there was not as much attention given to the very complicated relations that necesarily exist between the Post Office and the Board of Works as should be given. The plans required are plans which must very largely be prepared by the experts in the Post Office who know what is required in the way of buildings and machinery, and for that reason there has to be a constant interchange of ideas and there are readjustments which cause considerable delay.
I do not know whether the Board of Works have been able to develop a scheme which was under consideration when I left, so that a certain number of architects would devote their attention to the work in the Post Office. This is a matter which I would like to raise on the Post Office Estimate. I feel that the Post Office requires a very great speeding up because of its reactions on business generally through the country.
Another aspect of this Department has reference to cultural matters. There has been a considerable neglect of these things, an inclination to regard them as things that could be done with the left hand, because they were ornamental. Deputies will recollect the kind of answer I got to-day about the building of a broadcasting station. I was told that we must build houses first. Must we always use that stick to beat every effort at enterprise? Surely the building of houses could go ahead without interfering with the work which must necessarily be done if the nation is to be built up?
Cultural matters are a big asset in the earning of dollars. In this connection our national monuments require great attention. Possibly they require more brains and initiative to give them the necessary support. I do not think there is anybody at the head of that particular section. I believe the person who was appointed has resigned. Whoever deals with this should be a person of enterprise and one who knows how monuments are cherished in other countries. One is really ashamed of some of our monuments at the moment. They are overgrown with grass, weeds and trees. These historic monuments should be kept as attractively as possible, because they have a tremendous traditional value from the point of view of tourists.
The present National Library is over-crowded. It is impossible to carry on the work properly there. A scheme was initiated in connection with this but the plans are not being pursued. Neither are the plans being pursued for the building of a proper National University. We have heard a lot of criticism of ourselves because we wanted to erect new buildings. We were accused of extravagance. The proposed buildings were described as luxury buildings. Buildings such as these are not an extravagance. They are essential in any country.
Such as the proposed new Parliament building costing £11,500,000.
Look at the Parliamentary buildings in other countries. I am ashamed of the shoddy attitude of the Deputy where the dignity and prestige of the nation is concerned.
You could not afford anything for the old age pensioners.
Do not mix up these things.
I am delighted to hear the Deputy confute himself.
Another important item is the museum at Kilmainham. I notice that will not be pursued this year. I think it would be very valuable to have a proper historical museum. The present museum is over-crowded. It is, of course, our shop window for tourists. Distinguished people visit the museum and they subsequently say whether they were impressed or otherwise. Attention should be paid to the museum. An American expert said recently that it is to the Irish race abroad we mostly appeal. We should show these people the very best we have when they visit our shores.
There was a proposed extension to the National Gallery. That is urgently needed. The Hibernian Academy has no proper accommodation. That, I think, is a matter for the Department of Education. The scheme for the building of a national theatre has also been set aside. We all know that our drama and our acting has helped to put us on the map, especially in America, where hitherto we were regarded as hewers of wood and drawers of water. In recent years no important buildings have been erected with the exception of the Department of Industry and Commerce. No building of any distinction has taken place in Dublin in the last 50 years.
I was glad to hear the Minister for Finance say that he was friendly towards cultural developments with the object of attracting tourists. I was also glad to know that the front of Leinster House will be put into some sort of order before the end of August. It has certainly taken a long time to remove the old statue and make the necessary improvements.
The Fianna Fáil Government had plans for the reconstruction of Dublin Castle. I do not know whether those plans are being actively pursued. This year it is hoped to spend about £7,000 on Dublin Castle. In the Vote for 1948-49 £30,000 was to have been spent. Of that sum £9,200 has been spent already. I do not know what the position is at the moment. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will enlighten us.
I am vitally interested in the construction of proper Government offices in Waterford, and I am disappointed to see that there is only a token Vote for that purpose in the current financial year. I hope this matter will be pursued at an early date. We all know the Office of Public Works has a colossal amount of work to do. Forty-eight new Garda barracks are needed by the Department of Justice. Unless some initiative is taken, our great-grandchildren will be dead before the present Estimates will be cleared at our present rate of going. I think there is need for general reorganisation from the top.
They got into a bad habit in the last 16 years.
I seem to have heard that before. The Deputy is beginning to open his eyes. He forgets the war. I see in connection with Waterford that there is a Vote of £500 for a new Garda barracks. I hope that will be carried out at an early date. With regard to the Gaeltacht factories, there are two for which no work will be done this year. These factories are important from the point of view of helping to stem the tide of emigration.
Like the glasshouses.
The glasshouses are doing very well. The position with regard to the St. Andrew Post Office looks hopeful, since the Government propose to spend £12,000 this year. When Deputy Dillon was in opposition I was blamed for everything that went wrong. This could really be described as a nerve centre and work on it should be speeded up. I see that in the Pearse Street Post Office the postmen's department will be extended. The sorting office will not be tackled evidently. The total estimate for the work has not yet been made. We had got title for the ground before we left office and there is no reason why the work should not go ahead rapidly. I notice that it is one of the buildings for which plans have not been completed. There are two others here which appear in italics. I do not know why they are being dropped, but I shall wait until the Estimate for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs comes up to raise the matter. Quite a number of post offices are being left over—Arklow, Ballina, Cahirciveen and Carlow. Cork head post office is going ahead. I am glad of that, because it is a very important office. The quicker it is completed the better it will be. It was impossible to complete it until 1948 because of lack of materials. Nothing is being done in Galway with regard to the provision of a proper post office there. I notice that in connection with Waterford £5,500 will be spent this year. The total estimate for the work is £111,000. It looks as if work will be a little bit slow there. Waterford, like Cork, requires special attention. Nothing will be done in connection with Wicklow Post Office.
In connection with broadcasting, I take it that a Supplementary Estimate will be introduced for the short-wave station. Only a token Vote appears in this Estimate. The erection of the broadcasting house, I was told, would have to await the easing of the housing situation, which, I think, is absurd, in view of the fact that the efficiency of both the people in the G.P.O.——
As regard the short-wave station, our job is complete.
I see.
If there is any delay it is due to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.
You are not to have four masts yet? You are only going to have one mast?
That is not a matter for us.
I do think the Government or the Board of Works are a bit conservative in not employing outside contractors to carry out a lot of their work. If they did, it would save them a great many headaches, would give a good deal of employment outside and would considerably speed up work of national importance. Dublin, for instance, has no proper hall for conferences. We had almost signed a contract to take over the Rotunda would The plans were that the Rotunda would be used for conferences or even exhibitions and for various public purposes. There is no adequate building to hold even the Feis Ceoil or public functions of that sort. Dublin was beginning to get a reputation as being an excellent place for conferences. The Air Conference that took place here obtained for us a reputation which placed us ahead of places even like Paris. These big places cannot give the great attention to conferences which small places can. Other countries in Europe are trying to get as many of these assemblies as possible. Not merely the reconstruction of the Rotunda but the building of a first-class concert hall— which is absolutely essential for any civilised country—would certainly be a paying proposition. I do hope, now that the Minister has begun to see the necessity for utilising tourist development as a means of earning dollars, that he will rise to the situation and do something that will place us on a level with cities such as Salzburg. Austria is a very poor country at the moment, but it managed to make Salzburg a great centre for musical festivals. I am sure the people there are nor any richer than we are ourselves. We are a far richer country from the point of view of external assets and if some of the external assets were spent in the way I suggest, it would be very valuable indeed. I do feel that the Department of the Board of Works does not get a fair crack of the whip and that they should be treated as a much more important body, as they are essential to the building up of our national assets.
Some Deputy on the opposite side of the House mentioned that the problem of the moment was that some rural areas were short of water rather than that any great necessity existed for drainage in these areas. I am sure he meant that that obtained only in fine weather, but it would show a very peculiar attitude towards the question of drainage if it were to be carried out according to the type of weather which we happen to have at any particular time. So far most Deputies have had something to say in praise of the work of the Parliamentary Secretary in connection with the problem of arterial drainage. Deputy Davin, for instance, complimented him and his staff on their work so far in the Brosna area. No doubt, the people in whose area work is being carried out are satisfied, but there are other Deputies, such as Deputy Kissane, who are anxious to know when drainage in their particular constituencies will be commenced. That, to my mind, raises the problem of priority. I think we should have some idea of how the priority list is arranged and on what it is based. To my knowledge, the schemes that are being carried out under the Arterial Drainage Act are done according to the amount of good land adjacent to each particular river. Preference is given to rivers in the vicinity of a considerable area of good land or upland. Rivers which are in close proximity to bogland areas are very low on the priority list. I want the Parliamentary Secretary to inform the House whether that is the method by which the priority list is determined. If it is, I do not agree with it.
We have the position in rural Ireland that the majority of the population live in the poorer areas and on what can be described as the worst possible type of land. I think that if we want to raise the standard of living of these people and to keep them from emigrating we shall have to tackle the problem of drainage in their areas first. The case could be put up, of course, that good land should get the preference but it is not so much a question of draining good land as a question of relieving small farmers whose lands are flooded constantly for six or seven months of the year. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us what is the order of priority for arterial drainage. If he cannot give the exact priorities in which the rivers are to be tackled, he could at least furnish us with an idea of the system on which the list is based. A considerable amount of work has been taken out of the hands of the Parliamentary Secretary in order to enable him to tackle this question of arterial drainage. If it is the case that he is going to be relieved of a good deal of work by the new land reclamation scheme and the Local Authorities (Works) Bill, he should be able to devote more attention to the big problem of arterial drainage. In that respect I would like to know if every possible effort is being made to purchase machinery abroad. The buyers will, I hope, look, seek and search everywhere to secure more and better machinery every day. I hope that the Board of Works are not going to sit down and pat themselves on the back now that the Brosna has been started and promise themselves that the Glyde and Dee and the others will be tackled next year or the year after. That would not be satisfactory and it will not be accepted from the Parliamentary Secretary, I assure you.
Proof of the earnestness of the Board of Works in their desire to tackle drainage problems would be seen in their attempt to secure the services of engineers. In order to make a success of any drainage work it is necessary to have the best engineering skill available. If we intend to have three, four or even five arterial drainage schemes going at the same time it will be necessary to have first-class engineers and these engineers should be trained at the present time so that at a later stage they will be able to take over the bigger jobs. It would be no use looking for engineers in two or three years' time when the job is about to start. It is not for me to tell the Board of Works how to train engineers, but engineers on drainage schemes need special training; the ordinary qualifications of a civil engineer will not suffice because there are various special aspects which they must study.
There are a number of local problems in my own constituency which I brought to the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary before and again I want to congratulate him, this time on his action last year when I asked him to come to open the sluice gates on the River Shannon at Meelick and he did so. He did so, I know, in spite of the advice of his technical experts. I have said before that experts are not always right; they were not right with regard to afforestation and the same applies to the drainage of the River Shannon. Deputy Childers mentioned two types of flooding, summer flooding and winter flooding, and the most serious, to my mind, is summer flooding, because it comes at a time when the hay is down or in cocks. Deputy Childers said that it prevents hay from being taken away but I do not believe that. It takes hay away itself and there is no question of the farmer being able to take it away.
Hundreds of thousands of cocks are taken down the Shannon yearly. It rises within two days and covers a terrific area of country within a very short space of time. The suggestion was put up that if the sluice gates at Meelick were opened when the heavy rain came the callow land would not be flooded. I brought that suggestion to the Parliamentary Secretary and he agreed to give the thing a trial. The engineers and experts were against it but when the trial was over I maintain, in spite of what the engineers may say, that it proved a success. There is one further point which I would like to bring to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary in that connection. It is no use opening the sluice gates when the flood has started to rise. If it has started it rises so fast that the damage is done, but as soon as a heavy fall of rain comes the sluice gates should be opened immediately prior to the rise of the flood. If that is done it will relieve people between Athlone and Meelick. Those people have very poor holdings and are dependent to a very great extent on the land on the banks of the Shannon so every effort should be made to give them at least temporary relief until such time as something can be done under the Arterial Drainage Act to help them.
Another problem in my area is the River Suck. There are numerous other rivers there but I do not wish to take up the time of the House in dealing with them. The Parliamentary Secretary himself is as well acquainted with the Suck as I am because it flows between our two constituencies. He must have people coming to him time and again as they come to me asking if something can be done. I do not know how Kerry gets priority on the list. If it is on merits I do not mind.
One point about which I would like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary is arrears of drainage rates. In my constituency and in the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency there is a great grouse from people who have been pulled up by the Board of Works with regard to arrears of drainage rates, along the Suck particularly and in South Roscommon. One example is a man who was brought to court recently for failing to pay 13 years' arrears of drainage rates. I think it is an absolute scandal that a man should be asked to pay arrears over 13 years for work which was not properly done at the start. Since it was done his land has been flooded yearly and yet the man is asked to pay. That is only one example, but hundreds of farmers are affected along the Suck and other rivers in the West. I do not think the Board of Works should go back 15 years in order to suck the life blood out of a man. I am not an authority on this, but I think the Board of Works is not statute barred and can go back as far as it likes to claim these arrears. I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to deal as leniently as possible with people who are not able to pay these arrears because their land is unable to support themselves let alone support the Board of Works.
There is naturally a good deal of anxiety in areas that have suffered considerably from flooding as to the rate of progress that has been made with the arterial drainage schemes and in that connection the City of Kilkenny, which suffered a great deal is, I think, entitled to consideration. We are apt to forget in times like these what can happen in periods of heavy rainfall or particularly bad weather and the tribulations through which the people of Kilkenny passed a few years ago are not likely to be forgotten by them for a long time. The same is true of Carlow, and in that case the people had a belief that the troubles they suffered during heavy flooding were to some extent accentuated by the bog works in the Midlands. I cannot say whether that is true or not, but that is their belief. Unfortunately, in the case of Carlow Town the sewerage was affected because the Barrow is a rather sluggish river unlike the Nore, and does not take refuse rapidly. A characteristic of the Nore is that it is pretty fast-running and, while floods may be severe in the neighbourhood of Kilkenny, they do not last more than a few days, whereas in the Nore, the tendency is for the waters of the Barrow not to subside for a considerable time, the country being more flat. I think the Parliamentary Secretary had a discussion with the local representatives regarding the drainage of those rivers. I would like to know what progress has been made in connection with the survey of the arterial drainage regions which the Commissioners of Public Works have in mind that the country ought to be divided into, before this arterial drainage work can be completed. I think it is necessary to deal with the areas which suffer particularly, and where the fertility of the land which is affected is such that there is considerable loss to the country that it should be out of production, and that makes it incumbent upon me to press the Parliamentary Secretary for a statement as to when he thinks it likely that the preliminary step of the survey of the basins of the Nore and Barrow systems—the lower Barrow—will be made.
I think the understanding we had, when the Arterial Act of 1945 was passed, was that the arterial drainage system was the essential foundation of minor and subordinate drainage schemes throughout the country. Unless we hear to the contrary from the Parliamentary Secretary, I take it that the position still remains that the arterial drainage scheme then contemplated is to proceed on the lines that were then envisaged. How exactly these minor schemes are to work in with the larger national drainage work, and how minor drainage is to proceed in areas which have not yet been even surveyed and where there is no prospect of the larger arterial drainage work being completed for a period of years, are questions which I certainly cannot answer and I doubt if anyone who is conversant with drainage problems could answer them. Either the experts on the drainage commission were entirely at fault in this matter or an explanation is required of what is likely to happen at the present time if minor drainage work is carried on and if it does not fit in with the general scheme for the drainage of a particular river basin which will be carried out, presumably, in due course.
The question of the conservation of water has been raised. It may be that when the drainage commission reported, seeing that their task was to deal with arterial drainage, they had special regard to the historical facts connected with it and the development of the system. In other countries, however, attention has been given to the problem of conserving the waters. There seems to be a feeling in the country among engineers that we ought to consider carefully what the position is as regards our ultimate water supply. It may be that the amount of precipitation in this country renders it unnecessary to pay a great deal of attention to that aspect of the matter, but there has been a feeling expressed that the area in the centre of the country acts rather as a sponge which holds a great deal of this precipitation and that it is to the advantage of an agricultural country like ours that that water should be held there and that it should be drained off ultimately into the surrounding areas.
In any case, the point has been made that we should not regard water as entirely an enemy; we should regard it as a thing that, though perhaps not always necessary in the places where it occurs in too great abundance, is needed in other places. The problem of the conservation of water, and the possibility of utilising this water which will be drained off under the arterial drainage for power development, is one to which I think it is right to call the Parliamentary Secretary's attention. In fact, if the present Commissioners of the Board of Works were to go into this whole problem of arterial drainage and devote their whole energies to the arterial drainage schemes only, I am sure they would have more than would fully occupy their time. They have a great many other duties to perform. If drainage is to be gone ahead with in the way that members on all sides of the House demand, then nothing else would suffice, in my opinion, than that there should be a special drainage commission which would be empowered to go ahead and do all the requisite work. Such a commission should not be burdened, of course, with all the other multifarious duties that the Commissioners have at the present time.
I had not known, until Deputy Little mentioned the matter, that the inspector of ancient monuments had resigned and has not been replaced. He did excellent work during his period there, and while we can all see the things that have not been attended to, marvellous work was done with some of the ancient monuments like Dunbrody Abbey, Cashel and other places. Large sums of money were spent and a great deal of architectural and skilled planning was put into the work and the country has benefited to that extent. If the country is not aware of it, and the people do not take the trouble to find out what has been done, that is their loss. When tourists —particularly Americans — come to other countries, it is noted that it is to the historic landmarks they go, and I think the representatives of E.C.A. in this country have called attention to this matter in their radio talks. I have only to hope that the work carried on so well for so many years will be continued with equal success by whoever is to succeed the outgoing officer. I also suggest that these ancient monuments ought to be signposted better. It should be part of the work of the ancient monuments committee and they should be enabled to erect suitable signposts on the nearest public or trunk roads, to set out the distance and so on, and the nature of the monument in the vicinity.
Deputy Little also called attention to the question of the institutions of science and art. I cannot let the opportunity pass without again expressing my regret that the Government has removed from the Estimates even the token Vote for the proposed new National Library. Nothing has been done to provide additional accommodation since the building was established in 1890. Since that time, the number of readers must have increased enormously, as the population of Dublin has increased by hundreds of thousands during that period. I venture to say—at least, I hope—that it has become far more literate and far more highly educated and more interested in matters that would require access to the National Library. We have large collections of documents accruing there from time to time, like the Ormonde Deeds, that would require special accommodation. At the present time, large numbers of those documents and books have not suitable accommodation and have to be laid on the floor. Moreover, the accommodation for readers is limited and is not at all adequate, having regard to the importance of the City of Dublin from a cultural point of view. We are the chief centre, from the point of view of Celtic scholarship and from the point of view of antiquarian research and folklore, as well as from our own national history point of view and we certainly would regard the National Library as being the foremost place where foreign scholars would come and do research work. In fact one of the objects, one of the values of purchasing the Ormonde Deeds was that, since there was no other collection of that nature in this country—documents coming right down from the time of the Norman Conquest—scholars interested in the medieval period as well as the later period, in feudalism and so on, would come here to study these documents.
I heard some suggestion from the other side that this talk of new large public buildings is out of order, but I see that we are to spend a great many millions on hospitals and other large schemes. I have nothing to say against these—I am sure they are all very worthy purposes—but the point is that, when this building was taken over by the Provisional Government, the rooms at the back belonged to the museum. The museum never got back these rooms and never got any alternative accommodation. A certain number of rooms were taken away in that way. It has been impossible, since the Irish Government was set up, to show one of the most important collections, the geological collection, properly, and, in more recent years, the Irish antiquities section of the National Museum has grown enormously.
Everyone knows that during the period of excavations under the former director and for very many years prior to the war, and even during the war, there were thousands of thousands of new accessions. The staff had to be increased, and, in addition, there is a particular section devoted to recent Irish history from 1916 down, which is very inadequately housed and not at all accommodated in the way we would wish. One of these sections is entirely new and is growing and the other, the Irish antiquities section, has also grown enormously. You have also new departments like the department of coins and the department of stamps. Every country in the world which makes a new issue sends its stamps here and all these stamps have to be catalogued, labelled and put in cases. It is only by treating these buildings as a whole and seeing what can be done to improve the situation that I see any hope for an improvement in the way of the provision of additional accommodation not alone for the library but for the museum.
If a new National Library is provided, it would be possible to transfer some of these collections, which are either not on show at all or very inadequately housed in the National Library at present. One of the functions of the library is the collection of the national archives—for example, all the documents in connection with the history of the Irish national movement and the recent struggle for Irish independence. The intention was that they should ultimately be placed in the custody of the librarian at the National Library. All countries who pride themselves on their history, and particularly on the movements which brought about their national independence, feel that special steps ought to be taken to preserve these records, and anybody who reads about the French Revolution, the enormous interest taken in it and the huge literature that has grown up about it during the past 150 years, will have some realisation of the way posterity will regard the history of this country over the past 30 or 40 years.
I suggest that if we are in earnest about that matter, and if we want to provide proper and suitable accommodation for these national archives, we ought to be interested in seeing that they are properly housed—first, that there is sufficient accommodation for the housing of the documents proper; secondly, that there is accommodation for the staff who look after them; thirdly, that there is accommodation for the readers; and, fourthly, that there is accommodation for the students who come there to study.
While I believe the Parliamentary Secretary is doing his best in relation to carrying out the arterial drainage scheme, at least in one part of the country, we in Kerry have a serious grievance because, so far, nothing has been done. In South Kerry, not even a survey has yet been made of the river Maine, where serious floodings occur at various periods of the year. In North Kerry, not even one machine has yet been sent in in connection with the drainage of the Brick and Cashen. There is also another river in South Kerry, the river Flesk, which flows into the Killarney lakes and which frequently causes flooding of houses, land and roads. No attempt has been made to carry out a survey there. In my part of the county, there are numerous townlands where the people have no means of access to their farms by means of bridges. They have to cross rivers at fords, and, when the rivers are in flood, they have to stay inside, if they want to come out, and must stay outside when they want to go in. During the past year and a half I, and, I presume, other Deputies for the area, have made representations to the Office of Public Works with regard to the erection of bridges which are absolutely essential if the people are not to live for all time under very primitive conditions.
Can the Board of Works take any initiative in the matter?
Yes; it is the duty of the Board of Works to erect these bridges.
Directed by whom?
By the Office of Public Works. They hold themselves responsible, even though, so far, they have only erected one or two bridges.
I think that would come under Vote 11.
Vote 11 is the Vote for Employment and Emergency Schemes and the Parliamentary Secretary says that these bridges come under that Vote.
