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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Jun 1949

Vol. 116 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Land Reclamation Bill, 1949—Report Stage.

I move amendment No. a1:—

In page 3, Section 2, line 6, to insert before the word "transmit" the following words: "or land of which the Land Commission is the registered owner."

This is a purely drafting amendment required by the Land Commission for administrative convenience. The intention of the exception is to make it unnecessary for the Land Commission to notify the Registry of Deeds in the case of unvested land held by tenants and allottees. As the sub-section stands, the exception does not extend to the parcel of land allotted on an untenanted land estate which was registered land at the date of its acquisition by the Land Commission. The fact that the charge in each case has not been notified to the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds does not mean that the charge has not been recorded. The holdings in question being non-vested holdings, a solicitor or other interested person would normally approach the Land Commission if there was any question of sale, and the Land Commission would have a record of the charge in their books. For this excellent reason I invite the House to accept this amendment.

It is all very clear.

I thought it would strike the Deputy by its clarity.

Has this amendment anything to do with the matter we were discussing at some length on the last stage in connection with registered and unregistered land, and as to whether the occupier of land has the right to agree to the imposition of a charge against, and so on?

The Deputy's question is clearly designed to extract information on a highly technical matter. I would be less than frank if I did not inform the Deputy that the matter remedied by this amendment is one of very highly technical Land Commission procedure, of which I know less than nothing at all. I present the amendment to the House on the recommendation of skilled advisers in Land Commission procedure and I do not desire to practise the deception upon the House of alleging that I recommend it on its merits of my own knowledge, because I do not profess to be a master of Land Commission procedure; but I am satisfied that it has been most carefully examined by competent experts who, having full knowledge of that procedure, assure me that it has no other purpose than to simplify the procedure, but not to alter the essential purpose or effect of the provision it is designed to amend.

That is a most extraordinary statement——

It is the truth.

——which the Minister has made, and the fact that it is true makes it all the more extraordinary. Here is a very important point affecting the Land Commission, the prime holder of all the land of this country, and an amendment is brought in on the Report Stage by the Minister in charge of a Bill proposing to deal with the question of land reclamation and he tells the House that he does not know what the amendment is about. We have had reason in connection with another measure which has been under discussion for some time to complain of the manner in which legislative proposals are presented to the Dáil. We certainly have this feeling about it, that those who are responsible for those proposals know very little about what they are doing; that these measures, in the first place, have been agreed in principle by the Government and sent to the draftsman without any proper examination.

There was, during the long years that another Government was in office, a Cabinet procedure laid down which made it impossible for any legislative proposal to be put before this House until it had been examined in detail, minutely examined, by all the Departments which were likely to be affected by it. I am not going to say, because the facts will contradict me, that because of that close examination errors in draftsmanship did not occur. I am not going to contend that all the measures that were introduced in this House fulfilled the intention of the Government which introduced them or of the Oireachtas which enacted them for, as I said, experience would contradict me. The courts have on many occasions interpreted statues passed by this House in a manner which surprised those who were responsible for them.

Hear, hear! The Sinn Féin Funds Bill must have been the greatest of them all.

Precisely. Let the Minister for Agriculture laugh as he likes, but this is a very serious matter. I am pointing out to the House and, if the Minister does not want to listen to me, I am pointing out to the country, that despite all the care that was taken in drafting legislation, not merely by the Fianna Fáil Administration but by the Cumann na nGaedheal Administration, to ensure that every aspect of a legislative proposal would be strictly scrutinised, nevertheless, flaws were found in the enactments.

I never in all my experience heard —and I am certain that those who sat in preceding Dála will agree with me that they never heard—a Minister get up and recommend a legislative proposal to the House in the terms in which the Minister for Agriculture recommended his proposal here this evening. I do not think that any one of his predecessors ever said in relation to a motion which they put to the House that frankly they did not know what it was about or that they knew less than nothing about it. As I have said, the fact that the Minister is admitting that is proof of what we have long suspected—that measures are put to this House without having been properly examined by the Government and the Cabinet responsible for them, that measures are submitted to this House without the proposals being referred to the Departments which are most intimately concerned with them and whose procedure or administration is likely to be affected by them. If this amendment is of the importance which the Minister for Agriculture admits it to be, there is not any doubt whatever that the need for it would have been recognised if the Land Commission had been given time by the Government to consider the implications of the Land Reclamation Bill. Is anybody going to say—because that would be the only explanation that would be tenable—that this proposal was submitted to the Land Commission, that the officers of the Land Commission were asleep or were stupefied when the proposal was put to them and that, therefore, they did not recognise the need for this amendment? That is the only possible explanation, or was it the fact that the Bill in its original form did not go to them at all and that one Ministry did not know what another Ministry was going to do until this Bill got its First Reading here, was circulated to the Dáil and was published?

There is an Article in the Constitution which says that the Government has collective responsibility. The obligations of such collective responsibility cannot be fulfilled unless all proposals for legislation are submitted, before they are discussed by the Cabinet, to the Departments which are likely to be affected by them. There is and there should be in existence, because there was in existence a definite code——

On a point of order, on the Report Stage of the Bill, on an amendment which is purely of a drafting character, is it in order to examine in detail the Constitution and Cabinet procedure thereunder and the possible or probable events that have transpired since the foundation of the State?

No. I have allowed Deputy MacEntee to proceed a good way, because, as I understood it, the Minister did not indicate what he understood by the amendment. I have allowed Deputy MacEntee to proceed on that ground, because there has been no indication as to what was meant by the amendment. I must ask Deputy MacEntee to come to the amendment now, whatever the Minister did say about it.

I am greateful to you for your indulgence. I would not have intervened in a matter of this sort, as I am a layman and I know very little about Land Commission procedure—I suppose that to say that I know very little is an exaggeration—but I certainly felt it was necessary on behalf of the House to protest when an amendment was put to the House by a Minister who said that, frankly, he could not explain it and did not know anything about it, but that he was assured by his technical officers that it was a very important amendment. I would have thought that an amendment of such importance would have been fully explained to the House.

Major de Valera

Apparently, the purpose of this amendment is to make sure that the charge in all cases is registered. Without going into the details of the matter, it has to be related firstly to the wording of the section. Let us first refer to the draft of the original Bill. These amendments refer to Section 3 in which we are told:—

This section applies where—

(a) the occupier in accepting the Minister's proposal, informs the Minister that he wishes to pay his contribution by means of an annuity, or

(b) default occurs under sub-section (4) of Section 2.

One then goes back to sub-section (4) of Section 2 which says:—

(a) Unless the occupier, in accepting the Minister's proposal, informs the Minister that he wishes to pay his contribution by means of an annuity, the contribution shall become due and payable to the Minister by the occupier for the time being on the date upon which the Minister certifies that the works have been completed,

(b) in default of payment, the Minister shall inform the Land Commission of the default.

As the original Bill stood, it applies where the occupier does something or defaults in something I take it. On the Committee Stage this was amended. You have the Bill now before the House as amended in Committee which I take it is the form of the Bill to which this amendment applies. You have "in page 3, Section 2, line 6——"

Is it not to a different section from the one which the Deputy has just read?

Major de Valera

Different sub-sections but the application of the sections are the things that matter. I was merely tracing back the application from start to finish of the section. Sub section (3) of Section 2 now reads:—

"Where the occupier of land accepts the Minister's proposal the Minister shall notify the Land Commission forthwith in the prescribed form and the Land Commission shall, except in the case of unregistered land subject to a purchase annuity or land held under a temporary agreement with the Land Commission transmit——"

Now that needs to be parsed to see what this first sub-section applies to—

"Where the occupier of land accepts the Minister's proposal, the Minister shall notify the Land Commission forthwith in the prescribed form and the Land Commission shall, except in the case of unregistered land subject to a purchase annuity or land held under a temporary agreement with the Land Commission, transmit..."

In other words, as the section stands, where the occupier accepts the Minister's proposal the charge, apparently, will be notified by the Minister to the Land Commission and the Land Commission shall then transmit for registration. That is the content of the section in its original form and its content here, except that on the Report Stage we have an exception and it is this:—

"Except in the case of unregistered land subject to a purchase annuity or land held under a temporary agreement with the Land Commission, transmit..."

The exception, therefore, is that the Land Commission does not transmit in the case where unregistered land is subject to a purchase annuity.

We could spend the rest of the night on it.

Major de Valera

We could very profitably spend more than the rest of the night on it:—

"subject to a purchase annuity or land held under a temporary agreement with the Land Commission..."

The net point, as I read it now, is that there is to be included in the exception: "or land of which the Land Commission is the registered owner". Am I right in that?

Major de Valera

The effect of that, therefore, is that the Land Commission does not notify the registry in the case where the Land Commission is the registered owner itself. It seems to me that if you have gone so far as to except the case of unregistered land and land held under a temporary agreement with the Land Commission, in the first case the land would not be subject to registry at all and, obviously, there is no need for notification. I take it I am right in that. In the second case of a temporary agreement with the Land Commission, quite frankly, I am not quite clear what the content there is.

The tenant cannot sell without the permission of the Land Commission.

Major de Valera

That is to say, that the purpose of this is that the Land Commission itself can probably protect its own charge without the necessity for this registration. That I take to be the net reason.

The purchaser must ask the Land Commission.

Major de Valera

Therefore, this drafting amendment is in the nature of avoiding an unnecessary statutory manoeuvre or, shall I say, "going through the motions", as they say in the Army. Therefore, it seems to me that, on the section as it stands, this amendment is unobjectionable. I am, however, very surprised at the Minister's presenting it to us in this way, particularly as he has all the qualifications for being on the top of a job. Having put it that way, I feel that we have a responsibility in this House for not letting even the slightest, even the most innocuous thing through without fully appreciating for what we are legislating. I have risen simply in an effort to discharge that duty—I admit, impromptu.

I should like to know from the Minister now whether my attempt at reasoning out the content of the section is correct. As I say, the Minister has all the professional qualifications that would enable him to be very much on top of a job of this kind and in his particular case, at any rate, we cannot accept any excuse for not getting an authoritative and reasoned statement from the Minister who, as I say, has the personal qualifications. I would, therefore, be obliged if the Minister would tell me whether I am wide of the mark or whether I am on the mark on the lines I have tried to indicate, whether I am right in coming to the conclusion that this amendment is merely designed to obviate a statutory necessity for "going through the motions" in the Department which would be meaningless by virtue of the fact that the Land Commission, being the owners and having complete power over the alienation of land, the registration of a charge in that case would be relatively pointless.

I would hold myself remiss were I to recommend an amendment to this House without offering the House an adequate explanation of it and justification for it. Fortunately, although my observations do not seem to have made the impression which I had hoped they would, I have a copious note of what I then stated and I am in a position substantially to recapitulate it. I submit for the consideration of the House that it is a model of succinct clarity. This is purely a drafting amendment required by the Land Commission for the purpose of administrative convenience. The intention of the exception referred to in the section is to make it unnecessary for the Land Commission to notify the Registry of Deeds in the case of unvested land held by tenants and allottees. As the sub-section left the House after the Committee Stage, the exception does not extend to a parcel of land allotted on an untenanted land estate which was registered land at the date of its acquisition by the Land Commission. The fact that a charge in these cases has not been notified to the Land Registry or the Registry of Deeds does not mean that the charge has not been recorded. The holdings in question being non-vested holdings, a solicitor or other interested person would normally approach the Land Commission if there was any question of sale and the Land Commission would have a record of the charge in their books.

Now, is there any facet of this drafting amendment that is not succinctly and clearly described in the language I have just employed? It is not an uncommon practice in this House, where a Minister is called upon to deal with a highly technical aspect of Land Commission administration, which is notoriously obscure, for a childish member of the Opposition, who himself does not understand the amendment—and I do not refer to Deputy de Valera but to Deputy Smith—to ask, in terms which make it quite clear that he did not know what the amendment was about, for further and fuller clarification, the object being to suggest that the Minister in charge of the Bill is inept or incompetent.

I decline to offer the affront to this House of dissimulating an expert knowledge which I have not got. I do not hold myself out to this House as an expert in the land law. Anyone who knows as much about the land law as I do—which is a good deal—appreciates what it takes to be a facile expert in the land code. Anyone in this House who has an expert knowledge of it would regard it as offensive deception on my part to suggest that I was in a position to go through the land code and explain it to the House. It is no reflection on my sense of responsibility in coming before the House if I recommend an amendment to them as being purely administrative, of no effect to the principle underlying this section which it is designed to amend, having no other purpose than to simplify administration but of so technical a nature as to tax the capacity of one not competent to expound the land code in all its complications in presenting it to this House. Armed, therefore, with a copious note from the best authorities that can be found in the country, I did not attempt to pass off on the House the statement as representing my considered view. I have told the House that I had got the best advice I could, that I vouched for the accuracy of my version of that advice to the House, that I guaranteed its authenticity and that, on that, I asked the House to incorporate the amendment in the Bill.

I think Deputy de Valera approached this matter honestly and fairly, but I do not think he is right and I think it is something that is regrettable if we try to bring the procedure of this House into disrepute. I do not think it is a right thing to try to raise the suggestion that a Minister would have the insolence, the impertinence, to present to this House an amendment, disowning his obligation to hold himself at the disposal of the House to explain it to the limit of his capacity and it is grossly offensive to me to suggest that I would do it. I was surprised when the Leas-Cheann Comhairle found himself constrained to allow a wide relevance to Deputy MacEntee on the ground that I had made no attempt and had disowned the duty of explaining my amendment. I think the words I used in opening, which I have recapitulated from my copious note, constitute as succinct and clear an explanation of this amendment as it is within the power of any Minister to give. Nothing less would have satisfied me in preparing myself to meet the House. I confess that when Deputy MacEntee was speaking it seemed to me as though for a moment we had passed with the white rabbit through the looking-glass, we were hurrying down the burrows of Wonderland where the Duchess shook pepper on her baby and the red Queen played croquet with the stork.

Is this relevant?

To the dignity of this House, relevant it certainly was not. Relevant to the conduct of Deputy MacEntee, I regret to say it is. I would be ashamed to offer disrespect to this House. All of us ought to esteem it an honour to be members of it. I did not offer disrespect to this House. Perhaps I had better leave it at that or I should be tempted to comment on my own virtue in recognising this House as an honourable institution when I have to look at the Opposition as much as I have to.

Amendment a1 agreed to.

I move amendment No. 1a:—

In page 3, Section 2, line 6, to insert before the word "transmit" the following words: "or land of which the Land Commission is the registered owner".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment 1:—

In page 3, to add at the end of Section 2 the following new sub-section:—

"( ) The works referred to in sub-section (4) shall not be deemed to have been completed if the occupier within one month from the date upon which the Minister notifies him that the works have been completed appeals to the District Court and proves to the satisfaction of the district justice that the works have not been satisfactorily carried out in accordance with the Minister's proposals under sub-section (2).

We had on Committee Stage considerable discussion. I do not want to cover that ground again. I am anxious to know the reasons why the Minister has not seen fit to accept this. On the Committee Stage he made the point that the Circuit Court would be available to people who might not be satisfied that the work had been done according to the specification. I still think that by making available to them the Circuit Court only you are making it more difficult and very expensive, especially in regard to work that might not be very costly. A particular job of work might not cost more than £50 or £60 and you are asking the person on whose land that work might be carried out if he is not satisfied with the way in which it was done to go to the Circuit Court to have the matter reviewed by a court of law.

He could, of course, come to Dáil Éireann, could he not? He could come through his Deputy.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 12 midnight until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 1st July, 1949.
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