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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Mar 1950

Vol. 120 No. 3

Exported Live Stock (Insurance) Bill, 1950 (Seanad)—Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill comes to the Dáil from the Seanad which passed it last week. It is a Bill to amend the original Acts of 1940 and 1943 and, together with these Acts, it is designed to constitute the efficient framework of our system of mutual insurance amongst cattle and live-stock exporters to indemnify themselves against the ordinary hazards of the export trade, which are those of injury and disease which become manifest subsequent to the slaughter of a beast exported and which were not discernible to the eye of the dealer or exporter when he put it on board. The Bill is necessary, in part, to cure certain infirmities of the original two Acts and, in part, due to circumstances that arose consequent on the Trading Agreement of 1948.

Prior to 1948, during the war emergency, the rule relating to Irish cattle shipped to Birkenhead for immediate slaughter was that when such cattle came off the boat they passed under the survey of representatives of the British Ministry of Food and, if no defect was then discerned in them, any defects that subsequently became discernible in the carcase when slaughtered was the liability of the Ministry of Food. Subsequent to 1948, however, it was agreed between us that the final judgment on the quality of a carcase would not be taken until the beast had been slaughtered and the carcase examined by veterinarians attached to the slaughterhouse in Birkenhead. Against this new liability undertaken by the shipper, however, a concession was secured because, prior to the 1948 agreement, the Ministry of Food treated the kidneys of a beast as offal and no allowance was made for them. Subsequent to the agreement and at the present time the kidneys and the appurtenant fat are weighed with the carcase and the consignor is paid for them at the value of the meat itself. This concession is hard to evaluate precisely, but is somewhere between 4/- and 6/- per beast, and I think might safely be regarded as an average of 5/- per beast, although there are those who maintain that it is worth 6/-. I judge, I think correctly, that this additional benefit fairly countervails any additional liability that has arisen out of that arrangement.

It is gratifying to know that, under this new arrangement which now operates, our experience has been satisfactory. Prior to the agreement, our cattle were graded A, B and Manufacturing. Subsequent to this agreement, our cattle were graded Special, A, B and Manufacturing. Bearing this in mind, I think the House will be satisfied that the conditions under which the cattle are handled are reasonably satisfactory when I have to tell them that, out of a total export of fat cattle to the value of £4,513,265 between June and December, 1949, the total liability for all forms of loss through disease, bruising or otherwise amounted to 62 of 1 per cent. In addition to that, I think the House may be interested to know that, under the new grading arrangements, where we have Special, A, B and Manufacturing, in the same six months to which I have just referred of the steers and heifers (fat) going to Great Britain for immediate slaughter 99.1 were put in the grades Special and A; .8 of 1 per cent. were graded B; and .1 of 1 per cent. were graded Manufacturing. The price for grade A cattle prior to the agreement was 1/1½, falling to 1/- per lb., according to season. The price of Special quality to-day is 1/8¾; of A quality, 1/8¼, falling to 1/5¾ or 1/5¼, respectively, according to season. The number of fat cattle shipped in the calendar year 1947 was 110,000; in 1948, 66,000; in 1949, 134,000. The rate of levy made under this old code of insurance, beginning with the Act of 1940, was 2 per cent. at the beginning, but this rate was rapidly reduced until it reached one-half of 1 per cent. on 19th October, 1942, and it has remained at that level ever since.

In addition to the matter I have mentioned, I would direct the attention of the House to Section 6, which enables travelling expenses to be paid to authorised officers of the Insurance Board, where they are directed by the executive to undertake travel in Ireland or Great Britain on the business of the board. Section 7 confers upon the board the power to prescribe a different rate of levy for different classes of cattle. We understand from the live-stock exporters representative body that that is a facility the trade desires to have.

Section 8 is designed to remove an anomaly which had not been foreseen; that is that sometimes in a claim relating to several items the award in respect of nine out of ten items will be mutually agreed but in respect of the tenth item the claimant will ask to have the award reviewed. Owing to a statutory anomaly it was impossible for the board to review the tenth part of the claim if they did not review the whole claim. It is proposed under this section to give them power to review any part of the claim in respect of which the claimant asks for a review.

I do not think there is anything else of substance which I should mention at this stage. I am, of course, at the disposal of the House to answer any inquiries any Deputy may care to make. I mention this matter and, in respect of it, I desire to emphasise that I am entirely in the hands of the House. This Bill has taken some time to draft in order to meet every situation that might require to be met and, at the same time, not go further in the matter of legislation than it was necessary to go. As a result thereof a number of cattle-dealers have claims outstanding which cannot be disposed of unless and until this Bill is enacted. So far as the larger men in the trade are concerned that does not cause them any serious inconvenience because their bankers are always ready and willing to accommodate them. But there is a material number of small shippers who depend for their livelihood on being able to go to the fair with ready cash, buy their requirements there, ship them and turn their money over repeatedly throughout the year.

I do not say that any of them will be unable to transact their business for want of the money due to them under claims, because I do not think that is true. But I am informed that some of the smaller men are embarrassed for the want of money to which they believe themselves to be entitled under claims they desire to make in the event of the Oireachtas approving of this Bill. Therefore, if the House thinks well to expedite the passage of this Bill, I have no doubt it would be a kindly thing to do in consideration of the present circumstances of these small men. On the other hand, if the House is of the opinion that the matter requires further and more careful consideration, or amendment, doubtless they will not suffer any irretrievable loss by having to wait until after Easter. That is a matter upon which the House is as competent to judge as I am and it is a matter the House will have to determine for itself.

As I understand the Minister's statement, the need for this amending Bill arises from infirmities in the existing Acts of 1940 and 1943 and as a result of the 1948 agreement. My mind is clear enough as to the need for amending the 1940 and 1943 Acts but it is not so clear as to the reason for the British, during the course of the discussion in 1949, asking for this new method of approach in the examination of live stock exported to that country. I have read the Minister's speech in the Seanad in which he pointed out that this concession sought by the British and conceded to them was offset by the arrangement under which the kidney of the animal would be included as a counter in the carcase weight. If the concession afforded by us to the British is countered by a concession which they have given to us, why is there any need at all for this procedure?

In order to bring the 5/-into the fund. The 5/- is payable to the exporter and the object now is to enable a levy to be made on the fund and, if necessary, to leave the exporter open to a levy.

But any additional cost incurred in the new method of examining animals would also be borne by the exporter. Would it not, therefore, work out in the same way?

I do not want to interrupt, but I think I can make it clear. At present when the exporter sends a beast over he gets the extra 5/- but we now aim to give him a call on the fund to compensate for any flaw revealed in the carcase in the slaughterhouse. It may transpire on experience that that additional charge on the fund will require an increase in the levy of perhaps ?d. and this Bill is designed to give the fund the right to compensate the man whose beast is reduced in value on the hook, in which event we would levy a fraction on every beast; and it is the 5/- payable on every pair of kidneys that will fix the additional levy should an additional levy be necessary.

Is it the intention then, if the fund is found to require assistance, that the 5/- derived from the inclusion of the kidney will be diverted to that fund?

It would not require 5/-. The levy would be raised by perhaps one-sixteenth or ?d. on all the beasts.

This may not be a desirable way of conducting this discussion.

A lot depends on the tone in which a question is asked.

I have the feeling that when the British sought this, and I regard it as a concession from their point of view, they must have felt that, as a result of a new method of examination, more of our live stock would go down on the carcase examination than on the hoof. The Ministry of Food would be saved to that extent. If that assumption is correct, the calls upon the fund would be greater and therefore the contribution to the fund would require to be larger. It would be impossible to say to what extent that process of reasoning is correct, but if it is correct—and I think it is a fair assumption—I could not see the need for this new method of examination and, when conceding this new method of examination to the British, to say: "You must give us something which will balance the concession which we have granted." I would have thought that in such a case the approach should have been: "You are asking us for this concession. Here is a concession which I think we should have."

As I say, there may be some reason for this approach, but when the Minister assures me in respect of the concession which he has obtained in having the kidneys included, I am suspicious that that concession is, in fact, equal to the one given to the British. As a rule, when the British ask for something like this they know what it represents and they do not go after something that is just a sort of a kite. Anyhow, the agreement is there. The necessity for amending the existing Acts is there and is admitted. It arises, as has been explained to us, from two causes. There is no reason why the request made to us by the Minister should be denied. As one who has had some little experience, I resent the idea of coming to this House, Minister after Minister, and asking to be facilitated. I do not suggest that it has been done in this instance to-night but we have at least been invited to facilitate the passage of this measure for the reasons which were given and which, I am sure, are quite valid.

Dismiss it from your mind, Deputy, if you think it is the slightest infringement on your rights.

I am not contending that that request has been made to us in an aggressive fashion this evening. However, it has been made here so often and members of the House have been so often told that we are obstructing this and holding up that ——

—— that I think that sort of approach in having public business done is entirely undesirable. The request has been made that we should facilitate the passing of this measure and, so far as I am concerned —and I am sure as far as the Party on this side of the House is concerned— we have no objection to granting any facilities necessary in order to achieve that end.

I am much obliged to the Deputy for facilitating this matter. I think he will agree with me that when you are making a settlement for the sale of your produce you must be influenced by whether the other party to the bargain is acting reasonably and fairly. I think the record of the Ministry of Food in the matter of grading suggests, when they are taking over 99 per cent. of our cattle in the top grade without any agreement, that, on the whole, they acted and are acting fairly. Our total write down for loss under this new system of examination amounts to .6 of 1 per cent. I think that amounted over the period to about £28,700. I think, over the period, the Ministry of Food bought about 95,000 head of cattle. If you divide 5/- a quarter into that 95,000 it emerges, strangely enough, at almost exactly the amount whereby our total of cattle were reduced in price as a result of that injury and disease. It is for the trade, I think, to make up their minds as to whether they can carry this additional liability of £28,700 on the fund without an additional levy. If they find they cannot and want to put an eighth of a penny on the levy of all cattle to compensate the minority which are bruised or otherwise injured, we know that on shipments of 95,000 it is possible to levy, without abating the amount which the consignors used to get, to get the necessary £28,000 or £29,000 for the fund.

Therefore, I think the Deputy may reasonably agree with me that in the course of the negotiations I felt it expedient to take that risk which I had to cast up in my mind as best I could across the table, and that I managed to hit a bull's eye—conceding what they wanted and exacting from them at the same time a corresponding concession which almost to the £1,000 covers the liability. It is noteworthy that the £1,000 is on the right side.

But there is no uniformity. The concession you obtain is not likely to vary, while from year to year the percentage of animals that might fall on examination would increase or decrease.

I think the Deputy is right on that. If he reflects for a moment he will realise that since this agreement was made the price of fat cattle has gone up. It might do so again. On each occasion the price of the kidneys went up—and went up in respect of every single beast slaughtered in Birkenhead. But the percentage of damage remains about .6 of 1 per cent. Therefore, with every alteration in the price so far, the margin of safety for us grows wider. The only reason I am asking this power from the House is to provide against a situation in which, for the solvency of the fund, it might be necessary to gather that advantage that accrues to the consignor to the fund in order to meet compensation from time to time.

Is that how it would be proposed—to rehabilitate the fund?

Certainly. There is only one way to strengthen the fund should the charge upon it exceed its resources and that is to alter the levy.

Oh, I understand that all right.

It is proposed that the existing levy should be sufficient to liquidate this traditional charge together with the charges which are already there. The Deputy will have noticed that there is provision for another charge arising out of certain diseased conditions that may have to be provided for—that if the fund should be stranded by meeting those additional liabilities, then a corresponding levy designed to meet the additional charge would be levied on all cattle.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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