Deputy McGrath is raising on the motion for the Adjournment, the subject matter of Question No. 61 on to-day's Order Paper.
Messages from Seanad. - Adjournment Debate—X-Ray Facilities in Cork City.
To-day Deputy Dr. Brennan had on the Order Paper the following Question:—
"To ask the Minister for Health if he is prepared to sanction the provision of proper X-ray facilities in Cork City, which at present are grossly inadequate and unsatisfactory."
The reply he got was:—
"I would inform the Deputy that in my anxiety to improve the X-ray facilities in Cork county borough, I informed the city health authorities, as far back as the 27th July, 1948, that I would be prepared to make a substantial grant for the purchase of a high power X-ray apparatus. This offer has not yet been availed of. The existing tuberculosis clinic at the city hall is inadequate to house the high power apparatus and suitable accommodation for it is unlikely to be available until a new health clinic for the area is provided by the local authorities concerned (Cork Corporation, Cork County Council and South Cork Board of Public Assistance). Despite repeated efforts on my part to have this project proceeded with and thereby to improve the health services for the people in the Cork area, I have been unable to prevail on these bodies to make any effective progress with the provision of the clinic, towards the approved cost of which I am prepared to allocate a two-thirds grant."
I would like to deal with that reply which was given by the Minister for External Affairs to-day when acting for the Minister for Health. I am very curious to know who inspired this and the other questions concerning Cork City to-day. This attack on the Cork Corporation was evidently premeditated, judging by the reply. I think that the Cork Corporation and the county authorities have shown very clearly that they are most anxious to co-operate with the Department of Health in every way possible; but we certainly want to be very clear about what we are doing, as it has been the experience of the health authorities in Cork that there is a good deal of chopping and changing of plans by the Department. In fact, we have come to the conclusion that it is about time some finality was reached with regard to hospitalisation and clinics in Cork City. With that in view, the Cork Corporation invited the Minister, very early this year, to come to Cork to meet the different bodies concerned and to let us know where we stood as regards hospitalisation and clinics in Cork.
Yes.
The question specifically sets out: "The provision of proper X-ray facilities." Of course, the Chair must limit the discussion to the subject matter of the question, because it does not know how far the Deputy wants to extend the question. The Chair must limit the debate to what is in the question.
I think I should be allowed to deal with the reply.
The Chair must limit the debate to what is in the question because the Chair has no idea of how far the Deputy wants to go. The only indication the Chair has is what is in the question.
The reply states that:—
"The existing tuberculosis clinic at the city hall is inadequate to house the high power apparatus"
and then it goes on to say:—
"Despite repeated efforts on my part to have this project proceeded with and thereby to improve the health services for the people in the Cork area, I have been unable to prevail on these bodies to make any effective progress with the provision of the clinic, towards the approved cost of which I am prepared to allocate a two-thirds grant."
The whole thing has a bearing around the clinic, and, with the permission of the Chair, I want to point out the position of Cork as regards this particular Department, and the way that it has been chopping and changing plans. With a view, as I have said, to having finality in this, we invited the Minister down. The Corporation instructed their medical officer of health to call the medical staffs of the voluntary and local authority hospitals to a conference to discuss the needs of the city.
Surely that has nothing to do with clinics. It was purely a question of hospitals.
We could not go ahead with the clinic unless we knew what we were going to do, and we had to have some agreement between the city and the county authorities. These facts have been mentioned in the reply. Despite the interruptions I will go ahead.
It was not to put the Deputy off that I intervened, but purely to know what is the issue. Is it that the Minister for Health did not go to Cork to discuss hospitals there, or is it about clinics?
Both.
The question then is about the clinics.
I want to point out what our experience has been with this Department.
That would be all right on the Estimate for the Department, but not on this.
Surely I am not going to allow the Cork Corporation to be insulted as it was insulted to-day.
The Chair must have something to guide it as to how far the debate can proceed. The only guide the Chair has is what is in the question, and I must ask the Deputy to confine himself to what is in the question. Otherwise, the Chair will not know how far the Deputy wants to travel.
I want to refer to some of the negotiations that we had with this Department and to some of the alterations that were made later in connection with this clinic and other matters.
The Deputy must confine himself to what is in the question.
As far as possible, I will. The point about it is that we have had two or three plans turned down after paying architects a lot of money. We had an orthopaedic unit and were told to go ahead with it. The corporation came along and, at the Minister's request, handed him over the new fever hospital.
Are we now discussing the fever hospital or the clinic?
We were not discussing the clinic to-day but the X-ray when the Minister had to bring in the repeated refusals of the Cork authorities to comply with it. We had the orthopaedic unit and spent hundreds of pounds in fees to architects, and then, when the corporation were good enough to co-operate with the Minister and hand over to him the new fever hospital, they found that the orthopaedic unit was not wanted. We were asked to put up general laundries.
Surely that has nothing to do with the question.
I want to convey to the Chair why we wanted this conference.
Deputy McGrath sees what is in the question.
I do.
"To ask the Minister for Health if he is prepared to sanction the provision of proper X-ray facilities in Cork City, which at present are grossly inadequate and unsatisfactory." Now the Deputy wants to deal with laundries and with other arrangements in connection with Cork. He cannot do that, and I must ask him, finally, to confine himself to what is in the question.
I agree that it is a proper ruling that a person raising a matter on the Adjournment should confine himself to the question, but it has always been the practice, when a question is raised on the Adjournment, to refer to the answer to the question. If the Chair will refer to the answer that was given by the Minister to-day he will see that the Deputy has no alternative but to refer to the answer that was given.
Deputy Briscoe knows the practice of the House as well as anybody else. Deputy McGrath gave notice that he would raise the subject matter of Question No. 61 on to-day's Order Paper. The only indication the Chair has is of what is in the question. The Chair is not anxious to interrupt Deputy McGrath if he wants to get a definite answer to his question.
It is not my question, but it is a question concerning my area.
That is what is annoying you.
It is, and people from Roscommon and Dun Laoghaire should look after their own areas. The point about it is that there was the insinuation to-day that there was gross neglect on the part of some of the authorities in Cork, because the Minister stated in his reply, "Despite repeated efforts on my part". I am pointing out that the Cork Corporation and the other bodies tried to hold a conference with the Minister to go into all these matters. They had very good reason for asking for a conference because they had seen a lot of big blunders made in Cork. We were asked to put up a laundry. I was in Mallow and I saw one of the most up-to-date laundries in the country there.
Where are we going to finish?
That is what I would like to know as far as Cork is concerned.
The Chair has very definite notions of where we are going to finish in this matter.
Probably you have, Sir. I want to know why the Minister will not come down to Cork or send someone down there. The people are quite prepared to go ahead with any clinic. They have the only mobile X-ray unit in the country and it ill becomes anybody to reflect on the efforts the people are making.
Not on the people, on their representatives.
It ill becomes anybody to cast any reflections on the people of Cork because of their efforts to help out the Minister for Health. They handed over the North Cork hospital, the new fever hospital and the old fever hospital.
We will have the Deputy on the subject-matter of the question now.
The Deputy is replying to the interruptions to-day.
I do not want to stop the Deputy but, if he persists in that line, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.
The Cork people are the only people who have provided a mobile X-ray unit. They have one of the most up-to-date clinics in the whole country. Have we not in Cork a most competent medical officer of health and tuberculosis officer? He has not insisted on this. There has been no pressure of any kind by him and, as far as I am aware, he is quite satisfied with the position. There is no neglect. There are school inspections and everything else. As far as helping in the eradication of tuberculosis is concerned, I think Cork is one of the foremost counties in that respect. It ill becomes those who have never sat on public bodies to put down questions here and to make insinuations against people who spend practically every day of the week at this particular type of work. I think the reply is unworthy of the Minister. The Cork people have made every effort to co-operate with him and the fact the clinic is not there——
Let Deputy Corry speak.
I will. The Deputy could speak, too, because he is well aware of it.
I know all about it.
Nobody should throw any blame on the Cork people. They are doing more than their share in fighting tuberculosis and in helping the Minister.
As chairman of the board of assistance responsible for this area, I say in all sincerity that I regret the illness of Dr. Browne, Minister for Health, because I do not believe that, had he been replying to that question, he would have given the answer that was given to-day. I do not believe that would have been his answer, and nobody can bear that out better than the chairman of the Cork County Sanatorium Committee, Deputy McAuliffe. We were the pioneers of the mobile X-ray unit. That unit has frequently been lent to the Cork City area. When the Minister came down to put the unit into operation he complimented us on our initiative in starting it, and it ill becomes representatives of constituencies to criticise when they come in here with a kind of jackass proposal.
That type of expression should not be used here.
It ill becomes them to put down questions in relation to other areas.
Is not this the National Parliament?
I think they put them down because of jealousy on their part that Cork has done so well.
We are trying to help Cork and wake up its representatives.
As a representative of a constituency I like to do my bit for the people who sent me here, and for the people who were fools enough to entrust their health services to Deputies who, like the Minister for Agriculture looking after the Argentine and Iraq instead of looking after the farmers here——
Deputy Corry now on the X-ray facilities in Cork.
Apparently the Deputies in the inter-Party Government are getting into a bad habit. I would be sorry to see that happen. It was a bad habit that prompted this question. Every effort that could be made in regard to these matters has been made. Any delay that has occurred in regard to this clinic and hospital treatment in Cork generally can be laid at the door of the Minister's Department. Since this matter has been raised, I hope soon to lay the responsibility at the right doors by way of question.
Sixteen years.
I hope to find out the reason why the Minister, who was so generous in his grants for hospitals and hospital treatment, should hold these up for the last two-and-a-half or three years in his Department. They were as far ahead in February, 1947, as they are to-day.
The Minister is entitled to ten minutes. The Deputy knows that.
I do know it and I do not wish to inconvenience the Minister in any way. I regret the Minister for Health is not here. If he were here I believe that the answer he would give to this question would be snub enough for those Deputies who are so concerned about this matter. The people were foolish to send them here. They will not be foolish a second time.
The subject matter of the question relates to the provision of adequate X-ray facilities in the City of Cork. That entails the provision of a suitable building wherein suitable X-ray apparatus may be housed. In reply it was pointed out that steps should be taken to provide a health clinic in Cork City for this purpose. I have nothing but the greatest admiration and respect for the people of Cork, for Deputy McGrath and Deputy Corry, for the members of the Cork County Council and all the various officials. They may be very good public men, men who have rendered good service to the country. The function of the Department of Health, however, is to ensure that adequate health facilities will be made available in Cork, as well as in Dublin or in any other part of the country. One of the first essentials in dealing with tuberculosis in this country is to ensure that adequate X-ray facilities are made available. There are no adequate X-ray facilities available in Cork City.
That is not correct.
That has never once been challenged by the Cork Corporation, the Cork County Council or the Cork Board of Assistance, of which Deputy Corry is a member.
It is challenged here and now.
You have had your fling. As far back as 1948 the Minister for Health wrote to the Cork Corporation, the Cork County Council and the South Cork Board of Public Assistance suggesting the erection in Cork City of clinic premises in which specialist services (including tuberculosis services) could be provided. That was on the 29th November, 1948. What is the sequence of events? First of all, some queries were raised in December and they were replied to on the 17th December, 1948, by the Department. A conference was held on the 1st February, 1949, in the Department at which the question of these clinics was discussed. Then there was silence and on the 5th March, 1949, the Department of Health wrote to the Cork Corporation asking them what progress was being made. On the 23rd March, 1949, a further letter was received from the Cork Corporation—four months after the matter had first been raised. The letter is as follows:—
"I am directed by the Lord Mayor and Corporation of Cork to acknowledge receipt of yours of the 29th November last regarding the establishment of health clinics. They ask me to inquire if the clinics are to be available to all sections of the community irrespective of means."
That was replied to and again we had silence.
On the 2nd July, 1949, the Department of Health again wrote to the Cork Corporation asking them what progress was being made. On the 13th August, 1949, the Department of Health wrote again to the Cork Corporation asking them what progress was being made. Then a reply did come on the 16th August from the corporation, in effect throwing the blame on the county council, of which Deputy Corry is an esteemed member. Finally, in desperation, the Minister for Health wrote to the Cork County Council on the 7th November, 1949. Inasmuch as it has been suggested that the reply I gave to the Deputy in the House here to-day was one other than the Minister for Health would have given, let me read to the House what the Minister for Health wrote to the Cork County Council, sending at the same time a copy to the corporation and the board of assistance. In the beginning of the letter he recites the efforts he made to try to have these clinics established in Cork. He refers to the correspondence and goes on:—
"The Minister, with regret, must inform the county council that, as he is deeply conscious of his serious responsibilities to the community generally and particularly to the people of Cork, he regards himself as having fulfilled his full duty to the people, first by initiating the provision of the clinics and by promising a generous grant towards the cost and by furnishing the county council with an outline schedule of accommodation."
On a point of order, the Cork County Council has no responsibility whatever in that matter.
That is not a point of order.
Are you afraid to hear what was sent to the Cork County Council? The letter goes on:—
"He feels that he could not, in fairness to himself and his Department, continue to accept any further responsibility, either to the people of Cork or to the Dáil for any additional delay in proceeding with the project. He has asked me to inform you that unless architects are appointed and detailed schedules of accommodation submitted to the Department at an early date, he can only regretfully conclude that the council has abandoned the proposal to provide these health clinics and the health-giving services to be provided therein and he must reluctantly decide to divert to other members of the community, whose councils appear to have a more acute sense of their responsibilities, the moneys which he had set aside as a grant towards the Cork and Bantry projects."
What has this to do with the X-ray?
These are the clinics which will accommodate the X-ray apparatus. We are discussing the failure of the Cork authorities to provide the clinics which are necessary to ensure the health of the people of Cork. I should like to suggest to Deputies that, instead of coming here to raise issues out of which they will not come with very much credit, they should divert their attention to making available to the people of Cork adequate X-ray facilities. The facilities available at present in Cork consist of a fluoroscope, which is not adequate as an X-ray apparatus for detecting tuberculosis. With all due respect, I think Deputies will agree that the Department of Health and the Minister are best qualified to decide as to what are the necessary facilities. As regards the question of the Minister visiting the Cork Corporation, which has been mentioned by Deputy McGrath, I want to state that I have gone through the files. The question of the clinics was never one of the matters raised in that correspondence. It regarded simply the use of Gurranebraher Hospital.
You are mistaken.
I have read the letters and if the Deputy is not prepared to take my word, I shall show him the letters. In addition to that, it was agreed, first of all, that a deputation from the Cork Corporation should come up. They made an appointment with the Minister to come up and discuss the matter with him but they did not come. A letter from the Minister was to come up for consideration at the Cork Corporation subsequently but there was no quorum. Subsequently, the Cork Corporation did the wise thing. They got information locally and, having done so, wrote to the Minister agreeing to the proposals in regard to Gurranebraher.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 4th July, 1950.