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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Jul 1951

Vol. 126 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).

On behalf of the Fine Gael Party, I want to state our attitude to this Estimate. It was framed by the previous Government and, in common with any other Estimate that was prepared by us, we are prepared to agree to its passing. Consequently, we do not intend to divide the House on it. It is true that, to some extent, this Estimate differs from the Estimate which was approved by the previous Government. The Minister, in his opening speech, omitted to indicate in any way what the Government's policy on agriculture was, or would be, with the exception of milk. I suppose it is reasonable to assume—the Minister is new to ministerial office—that it might be expecting too much to ask for a full statement on agricultural policy. The debate has now lasted for over a week. Now that the Minister has got over his initial surprise at being appointed Minister, and with the benediction of all sides of the House in wishing him success in his appointment, the House, I think, is entitled to expect a statement on agricultural policy.

The Fine Gael Party is opposed to the proposal to increase the price of butter. That matter can be more appropriately raised on another Estimate. In pursuance of the agreement which has been reached to conclude the business by the 19th of this month, further opportunities will be available for discussion of that question on the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach. There is only one matter on which, I think, we are entitled to some explanation from the Government, and that is the rapid decision to abandon compulsory tillage. As I understood the Minister's policy, stated here when he was an Opposition Deputy on the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture which, as Deputies will remember was somewhat protracted, he then announced himself in favour of compulsory tillage. I think that any Deputy is entitled to change his mind, but when he changes his mind he should say that he has changed his mind. As we understand it, Deputy Lemass, as he then was, went to Tipperary in the course of the general election, and announced that Fianna Fáil were not in favour of compulsory tillage in peace times. That announcement coincided with the alteration of Fianna Fáil policy on compulsory tillage. I suppose it is reasonable to infer that they were finding the going a bit sticky, and it was deemed desirable that Deputy Lemass, or somebody else, should go to some rural area and make that pronouncement.

The manner in which the present Government has retreated on so many fronts makes it difficult for one to keep up with its various changes in policy, but, before the debate concludes, I think the House is entitled to some information as to the manner in which the present Government abandoned compulsory tillage, because it was one of the main planks in the programme of the Fianna Fáil Party when in opposition, and as late as the discussion on the previous Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

On a point of order, when was it the policy of Fianna Fáil in opposition?

That is not a point of order. It was your own policy when you spoke on that Estimate.

Mr. Walsh

I am asking when was it Fianna Fáil policy.

It was Fianna Fáil policy in opposition.

It was inter-Party policy.

Mr. Walsh

When? Will the Deputy quote?

Compulsory tillage was never inter-Party policy. We abandoned that with the support of Deputy Cogan before he made some arrangement with Fianna Fáil and went over to the other side. We abandoned that before the directions came from the major-general. We abandoned compulsory tillage with Deputy Cogan's support. The moment the Government was formed in 1948, compulsory tillage was withdrawn.

It was advocated by the Labour Party in this House.

But not as part of inter-Party Government policy.

You could not till the Wicklow mountains.

I think we are entitled to an explanation from the Government as to the reasons which prompted them to change that.

Mr. Walsh

The Deputy is wasting the time of the House.

The Minister should remember that we have been extremely reasonable in our approach to the Estimates in comparison to what the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party was in 1948, although the Estimates in that year were their Estimates.

Mr. Walsh

And these are your Estimates.

In 1948, after the change of Government, the then Opposition talked out the Estimates at great length. We are offering every facility to the Government in regard to these Estimates. What we want to know is, when the decision to abandon compulsory tillage was taken?

I want first and foremost to congratulate the Minister on his appointment as Minister for Agriculture.

You elected him, did you not?

I have known Deputy Walsh for a long period in spheres outside this House.

The vanguard.

Probably the vanguard of nationality. I have known Deputy Walsh as a very approachable, decent man. I think he has the good wishes of everybody in this House and in the country, and that he will make a success of his position as Minister for Agriculture. I think I would be failing in my sense of justice if I did not say that a very sound headline has been left for him and for future Ministers for Agriculture by the late Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon. On many occasions during the period of office of the last Government, I paid tribute to Deputy Dillon as a man who had imagination, and a man with imagination is the thing that is required——

I agree.

——to get completely out of the old rut. I think that even the present Minister for Agriculture will agree that Deputy Dillon was a man of commanding personality and of great imagination. He undoubtedly did work very hard in the interests of the agricultural community. I think there is no harm in politics in being honest.

Hear, hear!

Even at this late hour.

And, being honest as I am, and Deputy Davin agrees——

Hear, hear! I hope you are now.

——I can take a different line on many problems that arise. I am not one of those persons who feels bound to follow a particular Whip. I follow the best whip of all— my own conscience.

You have been round the ring.

It is an elastic one.

It is an extraordinary thing that, in regard to compulsory tillage which has been mentioned, I am personally very much in favour of it. I think that in so stating I am acting in accord with the principles of the Labour Party. I learned that principle in the Labour Party and I have not forgotten it.

You could not till much on the North Wall.

That does not matter. I would like Deputy Davin, Deputy Corish and other members of the Labour Party who are here to endeavour to be as consistent in following Labour principles as I have been.

Everyone is out of step except our Peadar.

If one makes a study of history one does find that certain single individuals have to hold the fort, and I happen to be in that position at the moment. I should just like to make one comment in regard to milk and the price of milk, and the price of butter as a result of the increased price of milk. I agree with what Deputy Dillon stated very often in the House that it is essential that the milk yield of dairy cattle should be increased and that, from the point of view of the dairy farmer, it is much better that he should have another 100 or 150 gallons a year of milk produced from his dairy cow than that he should get, say, a penny increase in the price of milk. I think that is perfectly clear.

While Deputy Dillon was perfectly right in his efforts to increase the milk yield of the dairy herds, he must realise, and everybody else must realise, that that cannot be done in a day, a week or a month. It requires a considerable time to bring about that change, that increase in the yield of the dairy herds. If the dairy farmers were unable to make ends meet on the present milk production of the herds, it was no use to say to them: "You will just have to struggle along until such time as you increase the yield by 100 or 150 gallons per cow." I think that the Minister was right in his immediate step to give an increase in the price of milk. At the same time, I hope he and the farmers concerned will see sound common sense, philosophy, if you like, in the teaching of Deputy Dillon, that we must increase the milk yield of our dairy herds and our dairy cattle.

By subsidising feeding stuffs.

I do not care how it is done.

That is the way to do it.

I will leave that to the practical farmers in the House. I am only putting forward my point of view as to what I think is necessary. Clearly it is ridiculous to be feeding cows giving 300 gallons of milk when you can, with the same amount of feeding, get cows that will give you 500 gallons of milk. However, that is a matter that will require a commonsense approach, in which a good deal of the teaching of Deputy Dillon will have to be followed and in which the sound common sense of the present Minister will be joined together with the enthusiastic co-operation of the dairy farmers all over the country.

You are provoking a row with Deputy Corry.

I am provoking no row.

You are now part of the family.

It would take a lot to come between us.

I am putting forward a point of view that seems to me to be eminently sensible. Perhaps, it is not sensible, but it seems sensible to me, at any rate. As a city Deputy, naturally, I did not welcome the recent increase in the price of butter. I would much prefer if the Minister and the Government had taken the decision to carry that increase by means of subvention or assistance from the Central Fund rather than by charging it entirely on the consumer. Our city people must realise, and everybody who buys butter must realise, that if the producer is to get a just price the consumer will have to pay, whether he pays directly or indirectly. I asked the last Minister for Finance, on one occasion, if he could give me figures as to how the subsidies affected individuals, whether the individual benefits by having these subsidies collected in general taxation and paid out to the producers, or whether the consumer would, in fact, be better off if he had to pay directly over the counter for the increase in the price of the commodity. I was never able to get the figures, and I have certain doubts about the whole matter myself.

I do think that every person, particularly workers who have got increased wages in the years since the war, should realise that, when agricultural workers have got an increase in their wages, when the price of feeding stuffs have gone up and the price of commodities to the farmers have gone up, it follows that there must be an increase in the price of the articles that the farmer himself produces. Consequently, while we city people object strenuously to any increase in the price of feeding stuffs, we realise that this Irish community is not only a community of city dwellers, but a community of city dwellers and of rural dwellers. We also realise there must be co-operation between all sides and if it is necessary to give increased prices to the farmer, and particularly to the dairy farmer, that this increase must be borne by the consumer whether he lives in the city or in the country.

These are only some scattered thoughts of mine on this problem of agriculture. I simply intervened for the purpose of wishing the new Minister every success in a very difficult, a very onerous and a very responsible task.

I do not propose to delay the Minister very long and, in common with everybody else, I wish him luck in his task. I am anxious to elicit positive information from the Minister on certain facets of agricultural policy. I want to know, in the first instance, whether he proposes to continue and develop the ideas of his predecessor with regard to the replacement of uneconomic cows by two-year-old in-calf heifers and whether he also intends, as an adjunct to that scheme, to continue the expansion of artificial insemination centres for the purpose of improving the milk yield. In addition we desire to know, in a positive way, whether there are any strings attached to the Minister's abandonment of compulsory tillage. One of his recent speeches left the door open to himself to beat a hasty retreat if he so desires, because he suggested that his Party was not in favour of compulsory tillage unless certain conditions arose. Will the Minister indicate to us how the circumstances under which he would endeavour to justify the policy of compulsory tillage again and whether the speech to which we listened here recently still reflects his real mind as distinct from his ministerial presentation now?

We are anxious to know if the Minister proposes to continue and develop the schemes already in operation and particularly the scheme in connection with the improvement of grasslands and the expansion of the ground limestone scheme. We are anxious to get not negative assertions from the Minister. We want to know, if he proposes changes in the general approach to agriculture, what those changes are. We are anxious to know what particular facet of the former Minister's policy he disagrees with and in what particular way he proposes to change it. These are our Estimates as the Minister has said and we do not propose to divide on them, but at a later stage, on the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach, in the full debate on Government policy, we intend to raise certain issues with regard to agriculture; but we must at this stage have a statement from the Minister as to whether or not he has become a convert to the Dillon approach to agriculture or whether he has some peculiar Walshian views of his own.

The people, and particularly the farming community who are sensitive to changes of Government, may be experiencing an unnecessary amount of unrest. That unrest can be allayed very readily by a policy and effective statement by the Minister as to what his policy is going to be. We have not been exactly reassured by the vagueness of the statement by the Taoiseach that England would get stuff if she paid prices. The Minister, to allay unrest in the country, will have to take an early opportunity of assuring the agricultural community that we are not going to start another economic war and chase will-o'-the-wisp markets in continental countries.

And not going to drown them in eggs.

Or slaughter calves.

If Deputy Cogan desires to interrupt me, I will wrap his desert rat around his neck. I am speaking here not for the purpose of creating acrimony but of trying to elicit a statement from the Minister that may set the minds of the people who are engaged in agriculture at rest. There is unrest and we want an assurance—I think it is due to the House and to the country—from the Minister that he is not going lightly to interfere with long-term agreements and long-term policy which is already bearing fruit in the content and prosperity of the agricultural community.

Deputy Cowan has objected to the increase in the price of butter. I want to know from the Minister if the penny is the best he could do. He was contemptuous of the action of the late Government. He and Deputy Corry vied with each other in being cynical about that penny, and grandiose and fluent promises emanated from Fianna Fáil and their new satellite, feather No. 1, Deputy Cogan, about 3d. and 4d. per gallon for milk. It was no trouble at all—"The minute we get in we will give it to you." I wonder does Deputy Cogan, in his heart, now feel the same cynicism with regard to this Minister's penny as he did with regard to ours. Is this penny the maximum proportion of the grandiose promises the milk producers can expect?

Mr. Walsh

That is all the farmers want.

You must not be reading even your own newspaper these days. Even the Irish Press is reporting that suppliers are not satisfied.

Mr. Walsh

They got what they asked.

I should like the Minister to put on the records of the House the fact that that was the complete demand of the farmer and that he is satisfied with it. I challenge him to do it.

Mr. Walsh

Read the papers.

I am asking the Minister to put on the records of this House what he says is the complete demand of the farmer and to let us see that demand, with his complete meeting of it.

I want to know whether or not he is running away from the five year guarantee which his predecessor gave, with his penny a gallon increase to the milk producer.

Mr. Walsh

1/- per gallon.

He gave a five year guarantee. The Minister is not that thick and, goodness knows, he is thick enough. The former Minister gave a guarantee of five years at 1/2 per gallon, with the penny increase.

Mr. Walsh

Quote for me.

We were present when the statement was made.

Mr. Walsh

1/- per gallon.

You are talking about the previous year. You are a bit out of date all the time. You are getting a little mixed in your jerseys because it is only ten weeks since the Minister was on this side——

Perhaps we might have less of the second person.

I apologise to the Chair. It is only a short ten weeks since the Minister for Agriculture, then Deputy Walsh, was preaching a very different story here. I am not interested in what Deputy Walsh was then. I am interested in Deputy Walsh now as Minister for Agriculture making a statement as to what changes or departures he intends to make and having the courage to say, as he can and should say, in the interests of the agricultural community, that much of what he said about Deputy Dillon's policy was the invective and satire of politics directed against what was, in fact, a sound agricultural policy for the Irish people.

We want information from the new Minister as to whether he intends to develop and bring to fruition many of the experiments started by his predecessor. We want to know how soon will we have—and what nature it will take—a development of veterinary services throughout the country. We want to know whether it would be possible to conceive, as there must ultimately be conceived, a plan whereby veterinary services will be made available to people of very limited means and with very limited stock at no cost —perhaps on the basis of a veterinary dispensary.

We want to know, not in any spirit of acrimony or with any desire to give rise to heat, what his approach to the problem of cereals is going to be. Is he going to indicate fixed prices over a range of cereals, and is he going to indicate these fixed prices for a period, or is he going to embark on a willynilly type of policy which will not enable the farmer, on the basis of guarantees of time and price, to plan his economy? We want to know whether the farmer coming out of a period of government in which he got not all done for him but a great improvement in his economy, can expect a continuation of the type of outlook that enabled him to build a sensible economy on the basis of sound economic planning. We want to know if there is to be a continuation of help and of encouragement as distinct from coercion and interference.

We want to know whether the growing self-respect and the position of importance which the farmer has rightfully got in society is going to continue. We want this information to be given in a positive ministerial statement by a Minister with a background of agricultural education and practical farming. We want him to give it in a forthright, straightforward way so that the farming community may know what the plan is. We do not mind if you take all our plan and add a few trimmings to it, but at least tell us what that plan is, so that the unrest which the farmer and farm worker are feeling will be allayed.

We want to know, and to know quickly, what his attitude is going to be towards the poultry and turkey trade during the coming Christmas. Will he give an assurance to the people that he will not impose controls or any type of prohibition on the conditions of sale and marketing which existed in respect of these commodities last year? In a situation in which there is a scarcity of turkeys—considerable difficulties have arisen in regard to the feeding of young turkeys and there has been a high mortality rate—is he going to clamp down on whatever profits might be available to the turkey breeder? The position is that the Minister has a chance of putting himself right, apart from putting the House right, in the country if he comes forth with a courageous and forthright statement of policy and not a mere indication by way of accident of a change of heart here and there.

I want the Minister in his reply to give us an emphatic and positive statement of what his approach to agriculture is going to be. I will say this to the Minister in all sincerity, on my own behalf and on behalf of my Party, that, if he approaches it in the right way, if he intends to improve, by way of a continuation of the grants and the many other beneficial schemes in operation, the improvement of credit facilities and so on, the lot of the farming community, he will have the whole-hearted benediction of this Party and our wishes for his success in his office, be his period there long or short, will be crystallised into reality by a conscientious support of every advance he makes which is of positive benefit to the rural community.

I want to offer my personal congratulations to the new Minister and to wish him luck in the tremendous task he has undertaken in accepting the office of Minister for Agriculture. I want also to say that, so far as this Party is concerned, he will have our utmost co-operation when we believe that he is acting in accordance with the policy for which we in this Party stand. I should like also to congratulate Deputy Cowan on his explanation of his reason for supporting this Estimate. On behalf of our Party, I have to say that we are challenging a division and voting against the Estimate and if Deputy Cowan is the great Labour man he professed to be to-night, I trust he will follow the Labour Party into the Division Lobby. It was an admirable effort by Deputy Cowan to try to sit between two stools. He may imagine he succeeded in performing that feat, but I think he is recognised here; and I am sure he will be recognised in his constituency and in the city, as having failed miserably and fallen very heavily between these two stools.

We are opposing this Estimate and our opposition to it will not be a condemnation of the policy pursued by the former Minister or the policy of the Government for the past three-and-a-half years. We in the Labour Party, and more especially when on the Government side, opposed Deputy Dillon as Minister in many of the things he said and did, but by and large and over all—I want to repeat this—I consider him to be the best Minister for Agriculture this country has seen. Deputy Corry may take exception to that and may regard my speech as the speech of a townsman, but at least I go through my constituency and I have been in other constituencies and I know that the most dishonest farmer in this State will agree that over the past three-and-a-half years advances have been made such as were never made in a similar period since an Irish government took over here.

Great advances for the nigger and the Chinaman.

Deputy Corry can make his smart points and play to the gallery with interjections of that type, but he must agree that great advances were made in these three-and-a-half years. He may have taken exception to things which were done and Fianna Fáil may have taken exception to things which were done, but the main opposition by Fianna Fáil to any measure dealing with agriculture introduced during that period was not so much to the policy as to the person who introduced it.

We are opposing this Estimate because the price of butter has been increased. I remember that, in the general election campaign, Fianna Fáil made great play with the increased cost of living, with the accent on the increased cost of butter, and many of their advertisements will show that butter is mentioned as one of the things in respect of which the Government of the day was blamed in connection with the increased cost of living. If Fianna Fáil were sincere in their plea that the Government were responsible for increasing the cost of living by increasing the price of creamery milk and consequently the price of butter, I do not think it was fair to those who sent them into Dáil Éireann that one of their very first acts should be to increase the price of creamery milk and consequently the price of butter.

That is why I say that Deputy Cowan is dishonest with himself, if he does not—and he describes himself as a free and independent Deputy—walk into the Division Lobby with the Labour Party. He has paid his tribute to Deputy Dillon and if he should think that the people of Dublin or of the country would interpret his action in voting against the Estimate as a disapproval of the policy of the Minister, he need not be under any illusion or misapprehension, because he can state, as I am now stating, that I am voting against the Estimate because of the introduction of this new proposal by the Minister to increase the price of butter by increasing the price of creamery milk.

I have sympathy with the farmers. I do not believe that it is on creamery milk alone the farmers live and I do not believe that this is an opportune time to transfer that increase to the consumers. The farmers live by and produce other commodities, and, so far as the past three-and-a-half years are concerned, the farmers have done reasonably well and have done better than the people in the towns and cities who are expected to pay this increased price for butter. That is as much as I have to say on that matter, except to indicate again that we propose to challenge a division and to vote against this Estimate because the price of butter has been increased.

I want to give a small piece of advice to the Minister. It relates to a matter in which I was particularly interested during my short term in the Custom House, the matter of drainage. The local authorities works schemes operated by the county council took some time to get under way and it took the county councils some time to prepare and arrange the schemes so that they would dovetail into the general scheme of drainage which the Government proposed to operate and which, I assume, the present Government propose to continue. Some months ago I wanted to see closer co-operation between the Department of Agriculture and Local Government because as I know, as Deputy Allen knows and as other Deputies from Wexford know, many farmers were prevented from availing of the grant under the land rehabilitation scheme because certain rivers were not drained, widened or deepened and generally were incapable of taking the water that would be drained off the farmers' land. If there was discussion with the officials of the Department of Agriculture who were responsible for the land rehabilitation project they could give very good advice and a great deal of co-operation and help to the county engineer and staff with regard to drainage because they could point out the benefits that would accrue if a certain stream were drained, deepened or widened and they could show where drainage work on a particular river would help farmers who wanted to avail of the drainage grants under the rehabilitation scheme.

In conclusion, I want to say that if nothing else were done as an improvement in the agricultural sphere in the last 12 months two things were done which were very important, and for which we in the Labour Party had striven for a very long time. One is the granting of a week's holiday to farm labourers. We never made any bones about it, but proclaimed our policy for a long time, and our most bitter opponents on the other side will agree that we were consistent with regard to the weekly and yearly holiday. I am particularly glad that agricultural workers on the State farms are receiving the differential of 5/- because of the piece of legislation promoted by the Labour Party, introducing the half-holiday, and that they are now required to work no more than 50 hours during any one week. I think that those are two improvements as far as agricultural labourers are concerned, and I am glad to say that we in the Labour Party can claim 100 per cent. of the credit for the introduction of the half-holiday, and the major portion of the credit for the legislation which gives agricultural labourers a week's holidays during the year.

I should like once again to congratulate Deputy Tom Walsh, the Minister for Agriculture, and to wish him luck so long as he holds office.

I am a bit surprised that the Deputy who has just sat down is going to leave the Coalition group.

You are the Coalition now.

And Deputy Cowan is the boss.

I am surprised that he should go against what is 100 per cent. Deputy Dillon's Estimate. It would have been much easier if a couple of months ago the Labour Party had indicated to their Cabinet colleagues that they were opposed to Deputy Dillon's Estimate rather than wait for a change of Government. It is an extraordinary about-face on the part of the Labour Party, but it is what one would expect. The previous Minister for Agriculture increased the price of creamery butter by the same sum that the present Minister had done.

What did you say then?

There was not even a whimper from Deputies Davin, Norton or Corish. They were, as the previous Minister for Agriculture often said, as quiet as mice in the Labour Party. They are not so now when a Minister for Agriculture in a Fianna Fáil Government dares to give a small increase to the farmers to enable them to produce milk to make butter, so that they can pay increased wages, pay for half-holidays, pay for a week's holiday, pay increased rates and increased taxation of many kinds as well as increased expenses in every possible direction. The milk producers of the country are held up to public odium because the Government dared to give them an increase in the price of milk. What has been given is all too small——

Fianna Fáil complained about the last increase.

——and they deserve far more than what they have got.

A further 2d. per lb. on butter.

However the butter is to be paid for, the people who produce butter, corn or anything else from the land are entitled to get enough to pay their costs of production. Remember that neither farm workers nor farmers can stay on the land unless they get fair remuneration for their efforts like any other section of the community——

If they produce cart grease, what then?

——but that has been denied to them——

That is misrepresentation.

——by the Coalition groups that were.

It is the Cowan groups that you are talking about.

No, I am talking about Deputies Davin and Norton and the rest of the crowd over there.

It used to be Communism; now it is Cowanism.

They were as quiet as mice four or five weeks ago.

We might not have long to be quiet. You boys were quiet for 16 years.

We will not be quiet here for long.

You had better be quiet and allow Deputy Allen to speak.

According to Deputy Corish, Deputy Dillon was the greatest Minister that God ever sent on earth.

No. Deputy Ryan told you not to misrepresent to-day.

It is extraordinary the amount of damage that was done in three years and three months under Coalition policy. Tillage land was reduced by 500,000 acres.

And more crops were produced.

There are 8,000,000 less poultry in the country to-day than there were when the Coalition took over. Twenty-five or thirty per cent. less eggs were exported than three years ago.

Is the farmer better or worse off than in 1948 when that Government came in?

Worse off.

Far worse off. He is in a more difficult position than ever before and there is no doubt about that. The whole national economy has been seriously damaged in the last three years because of the operation of the agricultural policy of the Coalition Government.

That will be your excuse as long as you are in. Last time it was the emergency.

It is a satisfaction to the people of the country, especially to those engaged in agriculture, to know that they have now a Government with a Minister for Agriculture who will alter the trend of events of the last three years.

He had better start at home on his own farm.

A half million acres have been driven back to grass, and we must try to get from foreign countries the wheat we badly need to feed human beings and animals, and are asked £50 per ton for wheat to feed human beings, but the Labour Party stood silently by and helped the Minister for Agriculture and gave him every possible assistance to carry out that policy of preventing the farmers from growing wheat and cereals in this country.

What did you pay for wheat in February, 1948?

Deputy Davin should allow Deputy Allen to make his statement without interruption.

He cannot take it.

We expect Deputy Allen to be truthful.

The Chair expects Deputy Flanagan to control himself.

Deputy Davin should be as quiet as a mouse, as Deputy Dillon said of him. It will not happen under this Government that Deputy Dillon will have the power to do away with the root seed industry in this country. These seeds were grown extensively in the constituency which Deputy Corish and I represent. The previous Minister for Agriculture was determined to prevent the growing of these seeds. He had even gone so far as to notify all and sundry that he proposed to bring "that rotten scheme" to an end.

He burst the racket, anyhow.

No longer will it be possible for Deputy Dillon to do away with the tomato-growing industry. No longer will it be possible for him to put the tomato growers of this country out of production.

I very nearly forgot about it, only for the Deputy.

It will no longer be possible for the Coalition to reduce, in every possible way, the growing of crops and to drive the country back to grass. We on this side of the House are composed of farmers, business men, professional men and, indeed, we represent every section of the community. Ten times the number of trade unionists voted for every member of this Party as voted for the Labour Party—and the best trade unionists in the country.

The Deputy is talking nonsense. Deputy Dr. Ryan, the present Minister for Social Welfare and for Health, said that only the road workers voted for us.

I got thousands of votes from trade unionists.

They must have been brought up out of the cemeteries.

Did none of the farmers vote for the Deputy?

There is plenty of room for thousands of farmers to vote for me—and they did. I got some thousands of votes from them. That is no exaggeration.

If you got all I got, they would never be done voting.

The Labour Party need not think that they represent all the workers of this country, because they do not. That day is past long ago.

That is the first time the Deputy told the truth to-night.

The workers and the trade unionists of this country have always been nationally-minded and these national trade unionists support the Fianna Fáil Party.

Deputy Allen, on the Estimate.

Wrap the flag about him. Up Dev and save the language.

I am answering a speech that has just been delivered by a colleague of mine.

He happens to be a member of the Labour Party.

The Deputy forgets the name of his own constituency.

So much for the Coalition and the Labour Party.

The Coalition is over there on the Government side of the House.

It is a collation, not a Coalition.

It is a disaster.

It has always been Labour Party policy that the heavier the burden you put on the farmer the better he will draw.

The Coalition Deputy did not hear me say that I would deny the farmer a decent price for his produce.

The Deputy should allow Deputy Allen to continue without interruption.

What about the price of milk to the dairy farmers?

From time to time I have received complaints in regard to the distribution of lime. As lime has been heavily subsidised by the Minister's Department, it is felt that there should be a reasonable distribution of it so as to give everyone who needs it, especially in the Spring, a fair share, and so that nobody will be able to get 200 or 300 tons while at the same time other persons who require lime are unable to get even ten or 20 tons. Every farmer with tillage land should get some lime and they should not be refused their share while a number of large land-holders are allowed to monopolise it. That works to the detriment of the smallholders who may want only ten or 20 or 30 tons. Last Spring quite a number of small tillage farmers could not get any lime although they knew that some of their more fortunate neighbours could. Every applicant should get a share, rather than that some people should be allowed to monopolise it to a large extent.

I hope that Deputy Corry is listening to that.

There is a subsidy being paid on lime at present. The scheme is all right and I hope it will continue. I have been asked to make a few observations in regard to the Land Rehabilitation Scheme. The scheme should be spread as fairly as possible while it is in operation so that a large number of acres will not be done on a small number of farms while there are a great number of people waiting to benefit by the scheme. It would give general satisfaction throughout the country if the Minister would have a check-up and find if all the land on which considerable sums of money are being spent can be considered economic within the next ten or 20 years, or whatever number of years you like.

It has been represented to me, and I have observed myself, that goodly sums of money are being spent on draining a certain amount of land which it is doubtful whether in one or two generations it will be worth the money spent on it. Sub-marginal land should be kept under close observation so as to see if any land drained is worth draining. In the first instance, of course, one must consider whether it is worth draining. Some people hold the view that money should be spent on any land, whether it be bog or anything else. I do not say that that is exactly what is being done but a very close check should be kept on the expenditure of this public money so as to discover whether the land it is spent on is worth reclaiming. There are considerable tracts of land in this country that will go back into a bad bog, no matter what is done. Great care and consideration should be given to the expenditure of that public money.

I was asked to mention the question of horse-breeding to the Minister. It has been pointed out to me that very little has been spent in the matter of providing thoroughbred horses. Only £2,000 is provided in respect of thoroughbred horses and £1,000 in respect of Irish draught horses. It is felt that these amounts should be increased considerably. I would ask the Minister to give more consideration to that. I would ask him to give more of an incentive to people to continue breeding horses. The breeding of hunters at the present time is not a paying proposition. It should not be allowed to go out of existence. Were horse breeding to come to an end, it would be detrimental to the future economy of agriculture.

Owing to the fact that arrangements have been made to finish this Estimate to-night——

No such arrangement has been made.

I, for one, will delay neither the Minister nor the House.

No such arrangement has been made. Who made it?

Deputy Cowan.

I shall speak, no matter who made the arrangement. I insist on my right to speak.

It is necessary that we should speak on, but not against the Estimate before the House, since it is the Estimate of the inter-Party Government. We believe that there cannot be any criticism of the Estimate. We believe it is a good Estimate. It is an Estimate that has set a pace for the present Minister, but I am afraid, even though I wish him well, that the Minister will not keep up the pace. I was one of those, who, for the past three years, had many associations with Deputy Dillon and, whatever Deputies on either side of the House may think, I thoroughly agree with Deputy Cowan when he said that Deputy Dillon, as a Minister, was a good, sincere, true and honest worker. Any amount of officialdom would not bar him from doing what he thought best for this country. I wish to congratulate the present Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Walsh. I have known him on fields other than on the political field. They were happier fields.

On a point of order. Has any arrangement been made to have this debate concluded without Deputies who desire to speak being afforded an opportunity of so doing?

That is not a matter for the Chair.

I want this to be clear. It has been arranged, and it has so been announced in the House to-night, that business is to conclude this day fortnight: that two days will be given for a discussion on the Taoiseach's Estimate, and that all the other Estimates, including this one, are to be disposed of between now and this day week. I think it is desirable that this Estimate should be concluded to-night, otherwise there will be no time to discuss the Estimate for the Department of Industry and Commerce or anything else.

Deputy Corry spoke two and a half hours on this Estimate.

There were just two changes made by the Minister. They are—an increase in the price of milk and an increase in the price of butter. As far as we are concerned, I do not think that the extra 1d. a gallon for milk is any great boast at all. I think that it was not even enough, having regard to the increased cost of production. We have no objection whatsoever to the increased price for milk. We fully agree with it and say that, to a certain extent, the price should be higher. There is one thing, however, with which we completely disagree and that is the method adopted in regard to the increased price for butter. I was one of those who campaigned quite a lot in the West of Ireland during the last election and I am proud to say that I polled as big a percentage of the votes in my constituency as any candidate in the Twenty-Six Counties. During that campaign the one thing I heard from every Fianna Fáil platform was talk about the increased price for butter. I have here a copy of the Irish Press dated 28th May, 1951, in which is displayed a picture of a poor housewife. The advertisement refers to the increased cost of clothes, shoes, soap, electricity, coal, butter and gas.

And the poor housewife has her nails polished!

In three days the Party opposite, who, I claim, deceived the voters of this country, increased the price of butter by as much as the inter-Party Government had increased it in three years.

Where did the advertisement appear—in "Truth in the News?"

The advertisement asked all to vote for a new deal and a straight deal, and went on to say that every housewife knew that the cost of clothes, coal, soap, shoes, electricity, butter and gas had risen.

We are getting the gas free from the other side of the House.

The advertisement further states: "A £1 note goes nowhere and every housewife knows it. Yet the Coalition is attempting to prove, by statistics and false arguments, that the cost of living has not risen. What do you think? Is this honest? Does it even make sense to the housewife?"

From what is the Deputy quoting?

I am quoting from the Irish Press of May 28th, 1951, in which can be seen the picture of the worried housewife.

That was before your Waterloo.

You will very soon get your Waterloo.

I never knew there was a Deputy named Cunningham in the House.

He will not be long in it.

As far as members of this Party are concerned, we are opposed to the increase in the price of butter. We believe that there are many other means by which the money could be found. The present method is one of robbing Peter to pay Paul. We believe that it is putting the burden on the very poor sections of the community. There is an extra 2d. on butter to-day and God knows on what there will be an increase to-morrow. We will probably have more on gas.

I want to make it quite plain that we are not opposed to this Estimate. The Estimate, as it stands, has set a pace with which, I hope, the present Minister for Agriculture will keep up. We are opposed to the increased price for butter because the increase falls upon a section of the community who, we believe, are unable to bear it.

Deputy Allen spoke about the farmers and said they were gone with the tide now. The best way to ascertain the conditions under which the farmer works is to go amongst the people on the land to-day. I speak in this House for the farmers. I represent the farmers. The honest farmer who is worth his salt will tell you to-day that he was never so well off. Every good farmer will tell you that. That is the answer to Deputy Allen.

Why are they fleeing from the land?

The farmers fleeing from the land? The Lord be praised!

A good deal has been said about compulsory tillage. I will never tolerate the section of the community that I represent being compelled to do anything. I know the Minister is a good tillage farmer and I know that he wants plenty of tillage. But the Minister knows what to do. Give the farmers a good price and they will do all the tillage that is necessary.

I assure the Minister that we will give him all the support we can provided his policy is favourable to the farming community. If it is unfavourable he will meet with our solid opposition. But we will not adopt the attitude that the present Government adopted when it was in opposition towards the policy of Deputy Dillon. No matter what he did, it was wrong. He cannot have been so very wrong since the present Government have accepted his Estimate with only one change. I think that change is a contemptible deception on the people. I think the increase of 2d. per lb. on butter is a very mean deception in comparison with the advertisement to which I have already referred. Those promises have been made null and void in three short weeks. Possibly this will have the effect of making the people lose hope. I hope it will not.

Might I ask what the position is in relation to the agreement that was arrived at to-day before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. That agreement has not yet come formally before the House but the basis of the agreement is that the Estimate for Agriculture and Fisheries would conclude to-night and time would be allocated as between the remaining Estimates over the next two weeks so that the Dáil might conclude its work on 19th July. Is the arrangement under which it was agreed that we would try to finish Agriculture and Fisheries to-night now gone by the board?

Why do you not bring the whole arrangement before the House and get it approved?

That was not to be done until next week.

Bring it before it now and we will approve of it.

I want to protest against any attempt being made by the Parliamentary Secretary to prevent Deputies from speaking.

I am prepared to sit here for a week.

I am not trying to prevent anybody from speaking at any length he likes. I am merely bringing to the attention of the House the arrangement arrived at before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, a Committee set up by the House and representative of all Parties in the House. The arrangement will be submitted formally to the House on Wednesday next but one of the decisions arrived at was that we would try to finish this Estimate to-night. I merely want to know whether that decision can or cannot be given effect to.

The agreement is not one for the Chair to decide. It is a matter for the Parties to come to agreement as to what has been decided on between them. The Chair has no responsibility in the matter.

Deputy O. Flanagan may be under a misapprehension. I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary is trying to deceive the House in any way. An arrangement was made with relation to the remaining Estimates on the assumption that Agriculture and Fisheries would finish to-night. There was no desire by the Committee or any member of it to stifle discussion on Agriculture and Fisheries.

I can see no difficulty. There are a couple of Deputies who wish to speak. I do not suppose the Minister will want very much time and perhaps if he got a quarter of an hour——

He will want more than a quarter of an hour.

I understand Fisheries has to be taken too. You cannot finish Agriculture and Fisheries in an hour.

If we finish Agriculture we will be doing very well.

If the agreement referred to by the Parliamentary Secretary had been submitted to the House to-day and formally approved we would feel bound to honour it. We have no desire to obstruct. If the agreement arrived at is submitted to the House next Wednesday we will honour it from the moment it is adopted.

Why would the Government not sit to-morrow?

Have you not got a representative on the Committee?

I never heard of the Committee.

Deputy Briscoe cannot talk. He broke a couple of agreements.

Could the House not sit late to-night and finish Agriculture and Fisheries?

I think we can let the two Estimates go into next week because we have a few hours to spare on the programme that has been arranged. I think, however, that the recommendation of the Committee ought to be put before the House first thing next week.

If the Government Deputies refrained from speaking it would be all right.

Deputy Flynn on the Estimate.

I am entitled to speak for an hour if I want to. (Interruptions).

I want to refer to a matter which concerns County Kerry and other counties also. There is a glut of store cattle and the farmers in these counties find themselves unable to get rid of them. For two years I have been advocating an adjustment in the grading system. There are certain very limited areas which can produce special grade or grade A cattle. They are the Golden Vale, Kildare, Dublin, Meath, Westmeath and a few others. The counties on the southern and western seaboard cannot produce special grade or grade A cattle.

Heretofore, the counties along the western seaboard produced stores which were sold to counties in the midlands and for export to England. At one time, the Kerry bullock and the Kerry cow were exported in large numbers to mining districts in England and a certain quota was sold to buyers from the midlands and the richer counties. Deputy Dillon made an arrangement, when he was Minister, with the British authorities whereby a special grade, or what he called super-grade, of cattle was instituted. I submit to the Minister that there is very little difference between this super-grade and grade A. In fact, I have been told by people in the trade that there is really no difference and that this is a system that should not have been introduced at all. The result of it has been that Irish feeders have to finish their cattle up to this very high standard and only the very best cattle are bought for the export trade. The smaller type of cattle that would have been bought heretofore are now excluded completely under this grading system.

If Deputy Dillon had done as we suggested a few years ago there would now be a different outlook for producers of this type of cattle. He made the statement that he wanted only the very best cattle for England but he forgot that under this system, he was creating a glut of stores in this country which cannot be disposed of. In the ultimate result it was a very shortsighted policy. The price of grade A cattle or of the special grade, works out at 22¼d. whilst the price for grade B cattle is 18d.—that is a difference of 4¼d. a lb. while the difference under the previous Government, before Deputy Dillon took over office, was only 2d. per lb.

If Deputy Dillon had adopted my suggestion and adjusted that grading system, there would be a difference of only 2d. between Grade A and Grade B and he could cut out the special grade altogether. The agreement that he made with the English authorities was that he would send over only the best. They got the best of our cattle at a comparatively cheap price and we were left with a surplus of somewhat inferior cattle which it is very difficult to dispose of. There is only one solution to that problem and that, I suggest, would be to grade down this standard to that which existed before Deputy Dillon took over and eliminate this highly-specialised standard set up by the British Ministry of Food. In that way we would gradually work down to the level of our economy here. That would be the proper course, in my opinion.

There has been a suggestion that the difficulty might be met by allowing a higher price for hides. That was a compromise put forward so as to balance any loss incurred in the export of these cattle. When the British were asked to increase the price of carcase meat, they refused on the grounds that it would result in subsidising the tannery industry in this country. They substantiated that statement by pointing out that while their tanneries were paying 3/6 per lb. for hides, the Irish tanneries paid only 10d. per lb. Subsequently, Mr. Dillon increased that to 2/6 per lb. for hides derived from cattle exported as carcase meat. There is a peculiar anomaly there at the moment because the butcher exporting cattle to England as carcase meat will get 2/6 per lb. for the hides of those cattle, while for the hides of cattle utilised for Irish use he will get only 10d. per lb. There is certainly some need for adjustment in our own economy there. If the Minister could see his way to examine the whole position in regard to the price of hides it would help him to adjust the price of cattle and also assist him to arrange a better price for the small cattle and find a market for them in certain areas in England.

The British people, so far as I understand, got away with quite a lot under Deputy Dillon's arrangement because they took the very best and he agreed to give them the very best, but Deputy Dillon took no cognisance at all of the export of small cattle. I know that the statements I am making may not be received very favourably by Deputies from the Midland counties and the fat cattle-raising lands of Meath and Westmeath who want the small stores from the south-west of Ireland and from counties along the western seaboard from Kerry to Donegal. It suits their economy all right to get these cattle at a low price but it is detrimental to producers along the western and southern seaboard who have to dispose of these cattle under the present system at a considerable loss. People in the Midlands, of course, would not welcome the adjustment which I seek but it is imperative on us to ask for it. I am asking the Minister to examine the case which I am making. I have consulted farmers, people who are in the export trade and several others and I can assure him that this is a very urgent problem. It is a matter that should be adjusted at the earliest possible moment.

If we examine the whole agricultural policy we will find that in many respects it was unbalanced heretofore. We often had controversies with Deputy Dillon in regard to the creamery industry and to development in the different areas down there. We had to fight hard to get justice for the farmers concerned. As one who represents small farmers, I appreciate the new Minister's approach to these matters. He has experience enough to understand that our economy down there is quite different from the economy in other counties and that what suits the people in the Midlands would be completely out of place in the small farming areas. That is why this question I raise is so vital to us. It is a matter which must be adjusted somehow. If the Minister can see his way to absorb this glut of small stores of different grades, he will be doing a great day's work, not alone for my county but for all the counties on the southern and western seaboards. I shall confine myself to that statement this evening in regard to the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture and I have full confidence that the Minister's approach to it will be a proper one.

I should like to wish the Minister the very best of luck in his new Department. It is a very responsible office and he has taken over a very serious responsibility. If he is a failure in that office, not alone will it affect the farming community, but every citizen of this State. For that reason I wish him success in his new Department, and he can rest assured that he will have my fullest co-operation in any good measure he brings forward in this House for the betterment of the Department over which he has control.

I have listened to this debate with interest and I have come to the conclusion that there is too much political bickering in this House and that the matter is not being approached in the proper manner. I feel sure that if some of the people whom we claim to represent were in this House during this debate they would not be impressed by the manner in which it has been conducted by some Deputies. I am not concerned with the politics of the Minister, but I am very much concerned, in the interest of the people not alone in my constituency but throughout the whole of Ireland, that during his term of office he will make a success of his Department. At this stage we cannot form a very good opinion, but I am reasonably confident that he will make a success of that Department, because I understand he is a practical farmer. We must, however, wait and see. I can assure him that he will have my fullest co-operation and support in anything I consider is good or in the best interests of the farming community as a whole.

It is too bad that men of different shades of political opinion in this House take the opportunity of furthering their own political interests by bringing matters into this debate that do not really concern it. I do not propose to do that. As one who was reared among the farming community and who has engaged in agriculture and knows quite a lot about it, both from the point of view of working on the land and being engaged in the export of agricultural produce, I claim to know something about many aspects of agriculture. As I have said, if there is any way in which I can help the Minister by constructive criticism or advice I will be always ready and willing to give him advice and assistance regardless of the political Party to which he belongs.

I suggest to the Minister that if he wants to put agriculture on its feet, he must first of all set about the task of long-term planning. The farmers of this country over a long period of years have been given very lavish promises about what was going to be done in regard to the price they would receive for the various items of farm produce and many times when they have offered their produce for sale at a fair or market they were disappointed in the price they received. I fully realise that there is a lot of uncertainty in the world to-day and that it is not easy to get long-term agreements. I will be reasonable with the Minister, but I advise him as far as possible, in every section of the Department under his control, to try and provide for long-term agreements and be in a position to tell the farmers that they will receive five years hence a certain price for their produce, be it potatoes, oats, barley, wheat, or live stock. If he can do that and if he can continue along those lines, I have not the slightest doubt that in the time that lies ahead the agricultural community will be much better off and we will be less dependent on foreign supplies.

I am not a bit parochial minded, but I want to refer to a few matters affecting my constituency of North Mayo, and no doubt other constituencies as well. First of all, I should like to refer to the fall in the price of potatoes late last year. In many parts of North Mayo and Mayo generally many farmers were disappointed at the poor price they received for their crops of potatoes at the end of the season. It is true that the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, made a move to dispose of the potatoes for these farmers.

It is also true that the farmers have not as yet received the balance of payment for potatoes supplied to alcohol factories and other places. I would ask the Minister when he is replying to make a statement on that subject and to let the farmers know exactly what they will receive, what the price will be and the exact deductions, if any, for bags, carriage or any other item. It is unfair to the farming community that they should have to wait long periods before they receive final payment for a crop with which they have so much difficulty. Any Deputy who is conversant with farming knows that the potato crop above all others engages the attention of the farmer over a long period of the year. For that reason I would appeal to the Minister to make a statement on the matter so as to clear the air and let us know the position.

Compulsory tillage has been discussed here several times. I am very familiar with the viewpoint of the various farmers in my immediate neighbourhood. Practically all the farmers in that neighbourhood favour compulsory tillage. I am not advocating compulsory tillage. On the contrary, I believe that the farmers should be perfectly free to grow whatever crop they wish. Farmers, being the intelligent people that they are, should know best the crop that is suited to a particular area. Compulsion is not the best method.

Farmers should be as free as any other section of the community to do what they consider best in their own interest and in the interest of the nation. I can well understand that during periods of emergency we must bear with various regulations and regimentation. Defence forces are told what they must do. They may have to spend longer hours at their work. It is quite understandable that during a period of grave emergency, emergency conditions should prevail so far as the farming community is concerned. Business people and others have to do a lot of form filling and have many other headaches in such a period. These are things that in peace time such as we enjoy, thank God, at the present time should be dispensed with. For that reason I am glad that the Minister, regardless of what he might have said six weeks ago, is reasonable enough not to impose compulsory tillage.

Lime and fertilisers are very important commodities for the farmers. Any device that the Minister might bring into effect for the improvement of the land would be welcomed. I am quite prepared to state in this House that the former Minister did quite a lot along those lines. He did perhaps more than previous Ministers did. I shall not go into the merits or otherwise of men who served in the Department over a number of years but I would appeal in all sincerity to the new Minister to do what he can to have land that is deficient in lime treated with lime and see that we have sufficient supplies of lime if at all possible. I know there are certain difficulties in the way of providing fertilisers but I would ask the Minister to concentrate on that matter, to look ahead and to see that there are sufficient supplies of fertilisers in the country.

Another matter is the question of machinery. It might seem out of place for me to refer to that matter because in my particular area tractors and modern implements are not used as extensively as they are in other parts of the country for the reason that most of our holdings are uneconomic. Quite a number of farmers, in North Mayo particularly, are in the £4 or £5 valuation class, and quite a number are in the £6, £7 or £10 valuation class. Any reasonable person can understand why, under these circumstances, modern methods are not employed. We are not so well equipped with tractors, modern ploughs and other implements. The cost of farm machinery prevents farmers from adopting modern methods, and therefore deprives us of supplies of agricultural produce that we would otherwise have. I would ask the Minister to interest himself in this matter. The manufacturers of farm machinery are very wealthy. They are able to make vast sums out of this business. Many of the agents, garage owners and others, receive vast sums in commission or discount for the sale of these implements. If the Minister could devise some method whereby machinery, tractors, ploughs and all the rest of it could be procured at a more economic price, it would give a very good return to the country in future. I fully realise that it is very easy for me to get up and say this here, and that it is quite another matter when the Minister contacts these people with a view to getting reductions in the price of these implements. I throw that out as a suggestion which the Minister might consider. I believe that if the Minister considers it, it will have the desired effect. As I said at the outset, it is a serious matter that we have to import so much that could be produced at home if the farmers were given a fair chance.

I will conclude on the note on which I started, by wishing the Minister the very best of luck. I suppose the Minister is quite a good man, but at the same time he is liable to make mistakes. If he makes mistakes, they will be serious from the farmer's point of view and very serious from the point of view of the national economy.

I do not propose to open up on a note of congratulation and good wishes to the Minister because he would know quite well that I did not mean a word of it. I desire to be a little more honest than the Deputies who have extended congratulations, success, good luck and prosperity to the Minister. I believe that his appointment was the sounding of the "Last Post" for the farmers and that the march which made him Minister was a dead march for the farmers. In that parade there was Deputy Cogan, Deputy Cowan, Deputy Flynn, Deputy Dr. Browne and Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll. These men participated in the sounding of the "Last Post" for the farmers by the removal from office of the best Minister for Agriculture that Ireland has ever seen, the best Minister for Agriculture in any country in Europe, and that was Deputy James Dillon. No matter what may be said about Deputy Dillon by the Fianna Fáil set up, it must be admitted that, at least, he had the courage of his convictions, that he was not afraid to talk or to act irrespective of whether any item of his policy or that of his Department was popular or unpopular. He had the courage of his convictions to do what he thought and what he said.

The present Minister, when speaking from this side of the House on the 19th April last, on the Vote for the Department of Agriculture, said:—

"It is my own personal belief that we should have compulsory tillage in this country."

The reference is Volume 125, No. 8, page 1132. Would it not be a grand thing if we had a Minister for Agriculture who could steer our agricultural policy more in accordance with his personal beliefs and not one who is steering an agricultural policy which is against his own wishes, his desires and his beliefs? Deputy Walsh, as Minister for Agriculture, is working the Department of Agriculture against his own beliefs and opinions and against a method of farming which he honestly believes is not in the best interests of the farmers. That can be borne out by the fact that he has now departed from his own statement which is on the records of this House that he believes in compulsory tillage. He does not believe in it any more.

He is a convert. Since the 19th April last his beliefs have changed, or else he is being compelled to pursue an agricultural policy which is against his own conscience. Which is it? I believe that the Minister is like a fish swimming against the current and that he is most uncomfortable.

I believe that the policy which the Minister is pursuing is one with which he himself disagrees, because he honestly believes that the farmers, or a section of them, should be compelled to till portions of their land. I think it is disastrous for the country that we cannot have a Minister for Agriculture who can act in accordance with his beliefs, his wishes and his desires. But that is not the best of it. On the formation of the Government, one of the Deputies who was responsible for the appointment of the Minister for Agriculture expressed the opinion in this House that the best Minister for Agriculture we ever had was Deputy Paddy Smith, and that one of the reasons why he was voting in Fianna Fáil was to have Deputy Paddy Smith back as Minister for Agriculture. Again, how disappointed that Deputy must be?

The Chair would remind the Deputy that the Minister is not responsible for the statement of any other Deputy.

The Minister for Agriculture knows quite well that if he were to attempt to pursue his own agricultural policy he would be removed from the office of Minister for Agriculture within 24 hours by the members on his own side. That is why he cannot act in accordance with his own beliefs as stated on the records of this House. He knows, further, that the farmers would not stand for compulsion. We all know that the farmers have reached a very advanced and very educated stage.

They have had three glorious years of freedom in which they could do what they liked, when they liked, how they liked and as often as they liked. The ten fields of inspectors threatened on them by Fianna Fáil were told by the former Minister for Agriculture that they dare not trespass on the fences of the farmers, and that they were only to trespass when the farmers invited them to cross the fences.

It is true to say that, on the last occasion on which he had a Fianna Fáil Government, no farmer could work his land in accordance with his own wishes and desires. The farms in this country were run, and the farmers were dictated to, by the pen and ink farmers in Government Buildings in Merrion Street. But for three years we had the happy experience of having a Government under which the farmers enjoyed a measure of prosperity. They could walk around as freemen in a free country. They could say what they liked, and that is the way we hope and trust the present Minister will pursue whatever policy he has to pursue. I want to say that any attempt by Fianna Fáil, or by the miscellaneous characters and supporters responsible for having them in office, to compel the farmers to do anything but what they want to do themselves, will be met by the strongest and the fiercest opposition from this side of the House, because we believe in, and always have been believers in, freedom. Surely, if a man has not freedom on his own land and to work his business as he thinks best himself he cannot call himself a citizen of a free country. On that aspect, the Minister does deserve a word of congratulation, the aspect of being a convert from compulsion to non-compulsion. Whether his term be long or short as Minister for Agriculture, I hope and trust that he will keep his hands off the farmers, that he will assist them and advise them where they need advice; but, as I say, if he tries compulsion with them, it will be disastrous for himself and for those who sit behind him.

We also have on the records of the House a statement made by the Minister when speaking, again on the 19th April last, from this side of the House. He was dealing with the dairying industry and on the progress of the creameries.

"I happen to be closely connected with the creamery."

and Deputy Dillon interjected——

"God help it."

"Mr. T. Walsh: It is doing very well."

That is an admission that there was at least one creamery in this country doing well under the policy pursued by Deputy Dillon when Minister for Agriculture. In my opinion, every creamery in Kilkenny was doing well during that period.

I wish to join with my colleagues, who have already spoken on this subject, in looking with disgust on the action of the Minister for Agriculture in increasing the price of milk at the cost of depriving of butter the workers of Dublin and the workers of this country, as a whole. This commodity has now reached a price at which it is out of reach of the working class people. I challenge any Fianna Fáil Deputy or any of the five feathers in the tail of Fianna Fáil to tell us in this House that 3s. per lb. for butter is reasonable so far as the working class people are concerned. I challenge those Deputies for not stating prior to the General Election that it was part of their programme and policy to increase the cost of living of the working class people, for it has already gone up for them during the course of the past 14 days as a result of the increased cost of butter. School children are suffering because local authorities who administer free school meals are seriously affected. Children who are particularly advised to consume butter are now feeling the pinch of the Minister for Agriculture's act, and every ex-tuberculosis patient in receipt of an allowance of butter is now faced with the position that he has to pay more for it as a result of Fianna Fáil taking over the Department of Agriculture and the Government of this country.

Is it not an extraordinary somersault that the very set of men who were criticising Deputy Dillon and the valuable work that was being done by the inter-Party Government, the very set of men who were, in fact, criticising them for not bringing the cost of living down to a lower level, should, with their very first action, increase it by giving the dairy farmers of this country an increased price per gallon for milk at the expense of the unfortunate workers of Dublin, Cork, Galway and of the remainder of the country? Can the Minister for Agriculture be really honest in telling us that he could not otherwise finance the giving of this additional sum per gallon for milk to the farmers of the Golden Vale, North Cork, North Kerry and of other constituencies? Could he not have found the money otherwise? Why on earth was it that it was the poor man who had again to accept the punch below the belt?

I am surprised at Deputy Donnellan expressing amazement and horror at this happening 14 days after Fianna Fáil taking up office. Deputy Donnellan should be long enough in this House to know that nothing but such tactics could be expected of Fianna Fáil. I only hope and trust that the Minister for Agriculture will see his mistake, and I believe he will see it. I am confident that the working-class people and other sections of the community who are already heavily burdened without having to bear this additional burden, will cause this Government to rue the day that they have increased the price of butter.

Now let us take the statement which Deputy Allen made in this House to-night. Listening to Deputy Allen, one would think that every farmer in the country was queueing up outside the workhouses and that there was no such being as the farmer who could stand on his own two feet.

I have said it in my constituency, and I say it here, that the farmers of this country never enjoyed such prosperity as they have enjoyed for the past three years. Yet we heard Deputy Allen standing up in this House and telling us that production has gone down and that there is less land under tillage. Be that as it may, if there is less land under tillage, there is more food grown. From the statistics of the Department of Agriculture, which the Minister has available at his hand, he can see clearly that there was never as much food grown in this country as has been grown in recent years. Fianna Fáil were in office in 1939. For the information of new Fianna Fáil Deputies I might point out that, in 1939, in this country there were 255,280 acres under wheat; in 1950 there were 366,012 acres. That was a substantial increase. Deputy Allen cannot deny these figures. Deputy Allen cannot deny that there was more wheat grown in this country under the inter-Party Government than was grown in 1939 when Fianna Fáil were in office. These figures may be obtained from the Department of Agriculture.

Let us take oats. In 1939 536,749 acres were grown, and in 1950 the acreage increased to 614,363. There we see again that there was a larger acreage under oats during the term of office of the former Minister for Agriculture than there was in 1939 when Fianna Fáil were boasting of all that was being produced.

Let us take barley—and I am sorry that Deputy Martin Corry is not here for this. In 1939 there were 73,784 acres of barley grown in this country; in 1950 the acreage increased to 123,241. That is something of which the inter-Party Government can be proud. In regard to rye, in 1939 there were 1,728 acres grown; in 1950 an increase to 3,968 acres is recorded. Those are figures in which I should like Deputy Allen to interest himself. Those are figures which even the mildest backbencher in Fianna Fáil should study and ask himself how it was achieved. It was achieved without compulsion, with encouragement, with good and fair prices and by showing reasonable consideration for the farmers of this country.

Let us take beans and peas, which the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Agriculture's colleague, has increased by 2½d. a packet within the last week. In 1939 there were 402 acres grown; in 1950, 1,506 acres were grown. Can those figures be denied?

465 acres this year?

I am quoting the 1950 figures.

Continue the quotation.

I am comparing 1939 with 1950.

Continue the quotation.

Peas and beans— in 1939, 402 acres——

465 this year.

The year I am comparing is 1950, not 1951. In 1950, 1,506 acres were grown. As a result of the increase which the Minister for Industry and Commerce has imposed, and for which the Minister for Agriculture has no responsibility except as a colleague, peas and beans have been increased by 2½d. a packet within the last ten days. I move to report progress.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Tuesday, 10th July, 1951, at 3 p.m.
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