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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Jul 1951

Vol. 126 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 39—Oifig an Aire Oideachais.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £193,090 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1952, chun Tuarastal agus Costas Oifig an Aire Oideachais agus chun Costas a bhaineas leis an gComhairle Oideachais.

That a sum not exceeding £193,090 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1952, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education and for expenses connected with the Council of Education.

Is dóigh liom go mba chabhair do Theachtaí é dá gcuirinn síos go gairid ar na figiúirí atá á gcur ós bhur gcóir. Agus mé á dhéanamh sin déanfad iarracht ar aon rud nach bhfuil so-thuigthe a léiriú.

Ocht Vótaí atá á riaradh ag mo Roinn-se, 'sé sin ó Vóta a triocha is a naoi go dtí Vóta a dachad is a sé. 'Sé suim iomlán atá á iarraidh ina gcóir ná ocht milliúin, naoi gcéad triocha agus seacht míle, sé chéad agus seasca punt (£8,937,660). Is mó é seo ná an méid a vótáileadh anuraidh, de chéad caoga agus sé mhíle, agus nócha puint (£156,090).

Vóta 39—Oifig an Aire: Dhá chéad is nócha míle, agus nócha punt (£290,090) atá á iarraidh. Méadú de cheithre mhíle agus dhá chéad é seo ar mheastachán na bliana seo caite. Trí chéad, ochtó agus ocht nduine an méid a bhfuil soláthar ina gcóir sa Vóta, 'sé sin, beirt níos mó ná bhí i gceist anuraidh. Tá riar á dhéanamh i mbliana do Rúnaí don Chomhairle Oideachais, agus, ina theannta sin, do Bhrainse Teaghlachais le haghaidh na Roinne ar fad. Do b'fhéidir laghdú a dhéanamh ar an bhfoirinn, áfach, i mbrainsí eile.

Meastar go mbeidh seacht gcéad go leith púnt (£750) de chaiteachas ag baint leis an gComhairle Oideachais i mbliana, rud nach raibh ach chúig puint eirnéise ina chóir anuraidh.

Lasmuigh den méid sin agus den mhéadú beag ar an bhfoirinn atá luaite agam, sé is cúis leis an méadú ar an Vóta ná gnáth-mhéadú tuarastail ar na scálaí tuarastail faofa.

Níl áireamh déanta sa Mheastachán seo, dár ndó, ar an méadú tuarastail atá ag dul do Stát-Sheirbhísigh mar a foilsíodh roinnt seachtainí ó shoin.

Vóta 40—Bun-Oideachas: Caoga agus seacht míle, naoi gcéad agus caoga punt (£57,950) de mhéadú atá sa sé milliún, ceithre céad caoga agus seacht míle, naoi gcéad agus caoga punt (£6,457,950) atá á iarraidh.

Breis bheag agus cúig mhilliún go leith atá á sholáthar le haghaidh tuarastail múinteoirí, ag Fo-Mhírcheann C a haon. Is lú de sheasca is sé míle agus ocht gcéad púnt (£66,800) é seo ná an méid a bhí ann anuraidh. 'Sé míniú atá air sin ná gur dearnadh, i Vóta na bliana seo caite, soláthar chun riaráiste tuarastail d'íoc i leith na ráithe dár chríoch an lá deireannach de Mhárta, naoi gcéad déag agus caoga, de bharr na nua-scálaí tuarastail do mhúinteoirí a tháinig i bhfeidhm ón gcéad lá d'Eanáir, naoi gcéad déag agus caoga.

Ar an Vóta seo ina iomlán atá méadú glan de thuairim is caoga agus ocht míle punt (£58,000). Tarlaíonn seo de bharr go bhfuil céad fiche agus dhá mhíle, agus ocht gcéad punt (£122,800) breise ag teastáil faoi Fho-Mhírcheann D—Aoisliúntas do Mhúin-teoirí, sa chaoi gur seacht gcéad seasca agus aon mhíle (£761,000) go hiomlán atá ag teastáil don tseirbhís sin.

Tá trí chúis leis an méadú so. Ar an gcéad dul amach, na múinteoirí atá anois ag éirí as an tseirbhís, is ar na nua-scálaí tuarastail a bheas a bpinsin bunaithe.

Sa tarna háit, ón mbliain naoi gcéad déag dachad agus a ceathair, níorbh éigin do bhan-mhúinteoirí dul ar pinsean roimh shlánú cúig bliain agus seasca dhóibh, agus dá bhrí sin, níor tharla an gnáth-líon ag dul ar pinsean go dtí an bhliain airgeadais seo caite. Fágann sin go bhfuil an caiteachas don chuid sin de na múinteoirí imithe i méid i mbliana. An dá ní seo i dteannta a chéile, méadaíonn siad an caitheachas de mhíle punt fichead.

'Sé an tríú rud is cúis leis an mbreis airgid atá á iarraidh, cnap-shuim a bheith le fáil anois ag ban-mhúinteoirí ag dul ar pinsean dóibh, mar atá ag na fir. Tháinig téarmaí feabhsuithe aoisliúntais i bhfeidhm ar an dáta céadna a tháinig na nua-scálaí tuarastail, sé sin, an chéad lá d'Eanáir, míle naoi gcéad agus caoga. Ar dtúis ní rabhthas ar intinn cnap-shuim a chur ar fáil ach do na fir. Bhí beartaithe pinsin na mban-mhúinteoirí a ríomhadh do réir an seascadú cuid den tuarastal in aghaidh gach bliain iomlán seirbhíse a bhí tugtha ag an múinteoir. I gcás na bhfear, is do réir ochtódaithe a bhí an pinsean le meas. Is dá réir sin a cuireadh meastachán na bliana seo caite le chéile.

Cinneadh ina dhiaidh sin, áfach, na téarmaí céanna a thabhairt do na mná agus a bhí á dtabhairt do na fir. Ghlac an tOireachtas leis an socrú sin nuair do deimhníodh Scéim (Leasaithe) Aoisliúntais na Múinteoirí, naoi gcéad déag agus caoga. As sin a tháinig céad agus seacht míle déag punt (£117,000) a bheith á iarraidh i mbliana i gcóir na gcnap-shuim, thar mar a hiarradh anuraidh.

Dá réir sin, bheadh céad triocha agus ocht míle punt (£138,000) de bhreis le haghaidh aoisliúntais. Ach tá laghdú tagtha ar an líon pinsinéirí a chuaigh amach roimh an mbliain naoi gcéad déag agus triocha a ceathair, agus a n-íoctar a bpinsin faoi Acht na Bliana ocht gcéad déag seachtó is a naoi, agus tá chúig mhíle dhéag punt le baint den mhéadú atá luaite agam. Fágann sin tuairim is céad, fiche agus trí mhíle púnt (£123,000) de mhéadú glan i leith aoisliúntais.

An méadú atá i bhFo-Mhírcheann A trí (sé sin, Coláistí Ullmhúcháin) sé míniú atá leis ná scálaí tuarastail níos fearr a bheith le fáil ag foirne na gColáistí ón gcéad lá d'Eanáir na bliana seo caite. Chomh maith leis sin, tá an costas iostais tar éis dul i méid.

Cé go bhfuil laghdú de cheithre mhíle agus chúig chéad punt (£4,500) i bhFo-Mhírcheann A a haon—sé sin Coláiste Oiliúna—ná tuigtear as sin go bhfuil aon laghdú tagtha ar an líon scoláirí sna Coláistí, ná aon ísliú déanta ar na deontais a íocas an Stát leis na Coláistí. Sé míniú atá air ná gurbh éigin soláthar a dhéanamh anuraidh le haghaidh riaráiste don tréimhse Lúnasa, naoi gcéad déag dachad is a naoi go dtí deireadh mí Márta dar gcionn. Níl aon riaráiste mar sin le glanadh i mbliana.

Tá beagán níos mó á iarraidh sna trí mhíle déag punt (£13,000) atá luaite le haghaidh carr-sheirbhísí agus bád-sheirbhísí, toisc gur dócha go mbeidh seirbhísí, nua le bunú. I mbliana arís, tá trí mhíle punt (£3,000) den mhéid seo curtha i leith na bus-seirbhíse speisialta atá ann chun daltaí scoile a thabhairt go scoileanna i lár na cathrach ó cheanntar Bhóthar an tSairséalaigh agus ó Bhaile Fearmada, Baile Atha Cliath ó tharla nach bhfuil na scoileanna nua amuigh ansin críochnaithe fós.

Tá míle agus cheithre chéad punt (£1,400) níos lú measta do Dheontas na gCúig bPunt do theaghlaigh sa Ghaeltacht (C a seacht) agus do chostas scoláireachtaí saoire sa Ghaeltacht, sé sin Scéim Choiste na bPáistí (C a hocht). Ar an méid iarratas is dócha a gheofar atá an meastachán sin bunaithe.

Ní dóigh liom gur gá aon mhiontrácht a dhéanamh ar na figiúirí eile atá sa Vóta seo.

I dtaoibh an Mhean-Oideachais— Vóta dachad 's a h-aon—sé suim atá á iarraidh ná milliún, dhá mhíle agus seasca, céad agus fiche punt (£1,062,120). Is mó é seo de dhá mhíle déag, seacht gcéad agus nócha punt ná an méid a soláthraíodh anuraidh, idir bun-mheastachán agus meastachán breise.

An bhreis atá á iarraidh i gcóir deontas do mheán-scoileanna, (FoMhirchinn A a haon, A a dó agus A a trí) sé is bun leis ná níos mó daltaí a bheith sna meán-scoileanna. Baineann an míniú céanna leis an míle agus ocht gcéad punt de mhéadú atá ann, leis na scrúduithe (Fo-Mhírcheann C).

Tá míle punt níos lú á iarraidh le haghaidh breis-tuarastail mhúinteoirí (B a haon). Mar tharla i gcás na mbun-mhúinteoirí, tharla i gcás na mean-mhúinteoirí, leis, anuraidh: tháinig na nua-scálaí tuarastail i bhfeidhm i dtús mí Eanáir, naoi gcéad déag agus caoga, agus b'éigin soláthar a dhéanamh i meastacháin na bliana anuraidh chun riaráistí d'íoc i leith na ráithe dar chríoch an lá deireannach de Mhárta, naoi gcéad déag agus caoga.

Níl i mbliana i Mírcheann G (Ciste Pinsin na Meán-Mhúinteoirí) acht deich bpúint eirnéise san áit ina raibh trí mhíle púnt (£3,000) anuraidh. Sé is cúis leis sin ná go bhfuiltear ag súil le dóthain airgid don bhliain seo a bheith sa Chiste roimh dheireadh na bliana de bharr riaráistí áirithe a theacht isteach ó bhaill den Scéim gur mian leo a bheith i dteideal an chnap-shuim d'fháil ar ball agus ó mhúinteoirí nach raibh go dtí seo ina mbaill den Scéim, do réir mar atá leagtha amach sa Scéim leasaithe ar ghlac an tOireachtas leis le déanaí. Siad na gnéithe is tábhachtaí den Scéim Leasaithe úd ná cnap-shuim bheith le fáil ag múinteoirí, idir fhir agus mhná, ar éirí as an tseirbhís dóibh, ach go ndéanfaidis rann-iocaíocht áirithe, mar is ar ranníocaíocht atá an Scéim féin bunaithe. Chomh maith leis sin, ceadaíonn sé deontas pósta do mhúinteoirí mná a éiríos as an tseirbhís ar phósadh dhóibh.

Meastachán an Cheard-Oideachais— Bhóta 42: An seacht gcéad dachad agus sé mhíle, naoi gcéad agus caoga punt (£746,950) atá ann, méadú é sin ar Bhóta na bliana seo caite de dhá mhíle agus dachad, dhá chéad agus fiche punt (£42,220).

Suas le cheithre mhíle triochad (£34,000) den mhéadú sin, faoi Fho-Mhírcheann B (sé sin, deontas bliantúil do Choistí Gairm-Oideachais), atá sé. Tá ag leitheadú ar obair na gCoistí, agus do réir mar a bhíonn a thuilleadh airgid á sholáthar as na rátaí faoi réir Acht an Ghairm-Oideachais, bíonn ar an Stát cothrom áirithe airgid a sholáthar do na Coistí ina aghaidh sin.

Oiliúint mhúinteoirí (Fo-Mhírcheann C) cosnóidh sé cheithre mhíle, ocht gcéad seasca agus chúig phuint (£4,865) de bhreis ar mheastachán na bliana seo caite. Cúrsaí oiliúna breise bheith ann d'ábhair Múinteoirí Adhmadóireachta agus Múinteoirí Eolaíochta Thuaithe an míniú atá leis an difríocht sin.

Ó tharla níos mó múinteoirí ar pinsean i mbliana ná anuraidh, beidh ar an Roinn seacht míle agus fiche, agus ochtó punt, (£27,080) a chur le ciste na bpinsean agus na saordháil (Fo-Mhírcheann G). Méadú é seo de mhíle, céad agus deich bpuint (£1,110).

Tá méadaithe ar an méid iasacht a thóg na hÚdaráis Áitiúla i gcóir oibreacha atá idir lámha ag Coistí agus bun-airgead ag teastáil ina gcóir. Mar gheall ar sin, ní mór don Roinn míle agus naoi gcéad breise (£1,900) d'íoc, faoi Fho-Mhírcheann H, i leith na n-iasacht úd faoi réir Chuid a caoga a haon (a sé) den Acht Gairm-Oideachais, 1930.

Bhóta dachad is trí—Eolaíocht agus Ealaíon: Céad fiche agus naoi míle, agus naoi gcéad púnt (£129,900) an t-iomlán atá á iarraidh dó san, sé sin seacht míle, trí céad agus caoga (£7,350) níos mó ná anuraidh.

Sé nuaíocht is mó atá sa Bhóta sin ná trí mhíle agus chúig chéad punt (£3,500) bheith á chur leis an míle agus chúig chéad (£1,500) a bhí ann roimhe seo chun léirdhearcadh a dhéanamh ar cháipéisí a bhaineann le Stair na hÉireann atá i dtaisce thar lear, agus chun macasamhla a dhéanamh díobh (Fo-Mhírcheann A a seacht). Is amhlaidh atá beartaithe i bhfad níos mó den obair sin a dhéanamh i mbliana ná mar a deineadh aon bhliain go dtí seo.

An dá mhíle, ceithre céad dachad agus trí púint (£2,443) de mhéadú atá á iarraidh i gcóir tuarastal agus mar sin de san Institiúidí Eolaíochta agus Ealaíon (Fo-Mhírecheann A a h-aon), sé is mó is cúis leis ná tuarastal múinteoirí páirt-aimsire i gColáiste Náisiúnta na hEalaíon d'árdú, agus postanna nua a dhéanamh sa Choláiste sin, mar atá sa sníomhachán, sa bhfídóireacht, sa ghloine daite, sa mhiotalóireacht agus in obair chruain.

Na Scoláireachtaí Iolscoile (Fo-Mhírcheann B a ceathair) faoin dá scéim, se sin Scoláireachtaí do mhicléinn a dhéanas a gcúrsa Iolscoile trí Ghaeilge agus Scoláireachtaí do mhic léinn ón bhFíor-Ghaeltacht, sé caiteachas atá measta dóibh ná ocht míle déag, cúig céad, dachad agus cúig puint (£18,545)—méadú míle agus chúig puint dachad (£1,045) ar mheastachán na bliana seo caite. Tá céad agus seisear (106) mac léinn a bhfuil na Scoláireachtaí seo acu sa bhliain acadúil seo. Is dóigh go mbeidh deireadh le hocht gcinn de na Scoláireachtaí sin an samhradh seo, agus táthar ag ceapadh go mbeidh chúig cinn is triocha eile á mbronnadh i bhfómhar na bliana seo.

Institiúid Náisiúnta na Scannán (Fo-Mhírcheann B a hocht), táthar le míle agus chúig chead punt (£1,500) a thabhairt dóibh, sé sin, chúig chéad níos mó ná anuraidh. Is mó ná ariamh an t-éileamh atá ar a gcuid scannán, ach is mó a chosnaíon na scannáin, leis. Tá beartaithe ag an Institiúid, leis, caint Ghaeilge a chur le roinnt scannán.

Rud nua sa Vóta is ea an soláthar trí chéad go leith punt (£350) atá á dhéanamh chun cúrsa faoi leith a thionól an samhradh seo ar mhúineadh nua-theangan. Táthar ag súil go mbeidh idir Bhun-mhúinteoirí, Mheánmhúinteoirí agus Cheárd-mhúinteoirí ag freastal ar an gcúrsa san.

Níl aon athrú ar na deontais-igcabhair atá ann don Drámaíocht Ghaeilge, do Choimisiún Béaloideasa Éireann, do Choiste na hÉireann i leith Eolaíochtaí Stairiúla, do Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge ná don Oireachtas. Níl aon athrú ach oiread ar an soláthar a bhí ann do chúrsaí ar Choláiste Gaeilge, do Chúrsaí Samhraidh sa Cheol, do dheontais do mhic léinn atá i mbun taighde Eolaíochta, do dheontais do thréimhseacháin Ghaeilge agus do pháipéir nuaíochta a fhoilsíos nuaíocht i nGaeilge. Tá laghdú beag áirithe —cúig puint agus seachtó (£75) sa suim atá á iarraidh don Ghúm (Fo-Mhírcheann B 1).

Bhóta 44—Scoileanna Ceartúcháin agus Saothair: Céad ochtó agus ocht míle, agus deich bpuint (£186,010) atá á sholáthar ina chóir seo. Méadú triocha míle agus ocht gcéad púnt (£30,800) é sin ar sholáthar na bliana so caite.

Cé go bhfuiltear ag súil gur lú de dhá chéad agus triocha (230) an líon dalta a bheas sna scoileanna sin i mbliana ná an sé mhíle, ceithre chéad agus nócha in iomlán de dhaltaí a bhí iontu sa bhliain seo chaite, is éigin cheithre mhíle triochad agus naoi gcéad punt (£34,900) san iomlán a chur leis an soláthar (Fo-Mhírchinn A agus B) do na scoileanna seo, de bhrí gur méadaíodh ar rátaí na ndeontas ón chéad lá de mhí Eanáir, 1951. Ceithre scilling déag agus réal (14s. 6d.) sa tseachtain an gnáth-dheontas anois do na Scoileanna Ceartúcháin, in ionad an dá scilling déag (12s.) a tugtaí go dtí seo. Dhá scilling déag (12s.) sa tseachtain an gnáth-dheontas i gcás na Scoileanna Saothair, in ionad an naoi-is-réal (9s. 6d.) a tugtaí roimhe seo. Tá a chothrom sin dá mhéadú deontais á thabhairt ag na hÚdaráis Áitiúla, leis, ón chéad lá d'Aibreán i mbliana.

An dachad míle punt (£40,000) de dheontas a ceadaíodh sa bhliain naoi gcéad déag dachad is a sé le cabhrú le Scoil Shaothair nua i gcóir buachaillí sinsearacha a thógáil, tá an scair deireannach de sin íoctha. Dá bhrí sin níl aon tsoláthar dá leithéid sin sa Bhóta i mbliana.

Sé tá i gceist i bhFo-Mhírcheann E ná an costas a bhaineas le cabhair airgid a bhailiú óna tuismitheoirí, agus tá léirithe i bhfo-Mhírcheann F an méid airgid a meastar a gheofar uathu.

Tá laghdú sa dá Fho-Mhírcheann sin i leith na bliana seo—seacht gcéad punt (£700) de laghdú sa chéad cheann agus míle púnt (£1,000) de laghdú sa tarna ceann. Bhí cuid áirithe de shíntiúsaí na dtuísmitheoir a choinníodh an Roinn, ach táthar tar éis a rialú go gcaithfear feasta an chuid sin a roinnt idir an Roinn agus an tÚdarás Áitiúil. Sin é is bun leis an laghdú ar an méid a gheobhas an tAire (cé go bhfuíltear ag ceapadh gur mó ná anuraidh an méid airgid a gheofar óna tuismitheoirí i mbliana), agus beidh laghdú dá réir ar an gcoimisiún a gheobhas na bailitheoirí ón Aire.

Bhóta 45—Tá ocht gcéad agus triocha punt (£830) de mhéadú glan, nó caoga agus sé mhíle, céad agus triocha punt (£56,130) ar fad, ar mheastachán Institiúid Árd-Léinn Bhaile Átha Cliath.

Sé bonn ar ar hullmhaíodh an Meastachán, gnóthaí áirithe a bhí á dhéanamh ag an Institiúid a bheith críochnaithe agus é bheith beartaithe ag an Institiúid postanna áirithe i Scoil na Fisice Teoiriciúla agus i Scoil na Fisice Cosmaí a fhágáil gan líonadh i mbliana. Ar an ábhar sin, cé go bhfuil Scoil an Léinn Cheiltigh ag tabhairt faoi obair nua i mbliana, mar atá, Léarscáil Chanúnacha, tá ocht gcéad agus seachtó púnt (£870) de laghdú glan san airgead atá á sholáthar sa deontas bhliantúil faoi réir Chuid a cúig is fiche (a haon) d'Acht na hInstitiúide Árdléinn naoi gcéad déag agus dachad. Tá míle agus seacht gcéad punt (£1,700) de mhéadú sa deontas atá á iarraidh i gcóir tógála agus deisiúcháin, faoi réir Chuid a sé déag (a cúig) den Acht. A fhormhór sin, is amhlaidh atá an obair déanta cheana féin agus na billí ina leith tar éis nó ar tí titim isteach.

An soláthar i Vóta 46—An Dánlann Náisiúnta, is lú de chaoga é ná soláthar na bliana so caite.

Deputies will appreciate that in the short time since I took up duty as Minister, I have not had an opportunity of becoming familiar with the various facets of the work of the Department, or of becoming fully acquainted with the departmental machinery.

I feel I should make it clear, however, that it is not my intention to make any sudden drastic changes with regard either to departmental policy or administration.

When introducing the 1950-51 Estimates, my predecessor in office made reference to the establishment of the Council of Education, which held its first meeting on the 5th May, 1950. The first task assigned to the council was to advise the Minister on the function of the primary school and on the curriculum to be pursued in the primary school from the infant age up to the age of 12 years. The council has been up to the present engaged in the consideration of this remit. Seven meetings of the council were held during the financial year 1950-51, and it is expected that the council as a whole will meet once a month in this financial year.

Some time ago a public invitation was issued to interested persons to submit evidence bearing on the matters under consideration by the council, and it is estimated that the sub-committee selected to deal with such evidence and with the hearing and examining of witnesses may have to hold as many as ten meetings in the near future.

Though I have not yet had an opportunity to meet the council, I understand that it is a live and active body, and I wish to pay tribute here to their zeal and devotedness.

I assume, from the various questions which have been put to me since I became Minister, that the question of the building and improvement of national schools is one of deep interest to all Deputies. We have 4,896 primary national schools, and this year, I think, we are building 52. From what I know of the conditions of schools in rural areas, I doubt if we will ever have real school building, considering the number we have and the rate of building, unless we seriously attack, and have a definite increase in, the speed of building. Under the present conditions, every effort is being made to cope with the problem of the erection of new schools and the improvement of existing buildings. Deputies are aware that grants are allocated by my Department and that these grants are subsequently expended by the Commissioners of Public Works out of moneys provided in Vote 9—Public Works and Buildings. Grants totalling approximately £699,000 were made during 1950-51, on an estimated total cost of approximately £804,000, towards the erection of 52 new schools, the major reconstruction of seven buildings, and the improvement of 332 others. The remaining £105,000 falls to be provided locally. This represents about 13 per cent. of the total estimated cost, and it is with regret that I have to record that it is a falling off as compared with the 17 per cent. by way of local contribution forthcoming in respect of the grants allocated in 1949-50.

It is necessary to emphasise how important it is that localities should bear their due share in the cost of this vital and urgent work, as an integral part of a system which, because of its recognition of the fact that the State is only one, and not the principal one, of the parties responsible for the education of our children, we must continue to value highly.

I should also, perhaps, mention that delay in the building or replacement of schools is often occasioned by the difficulty of establishing legal title to sites. The provision of a school site is entirely a local responsibility. If the site, after inspection, is considered suitable, it is in the interests of everybody concerned that the legal formalities connected with establishing titles should be attended to without delay.

Now, much of the blame for the delay in school building that is laid against the Department actually rests with the local people themselves. I am very clear about that. Again, I would like to stress at this time that, from my short experience and of the questions that have been put to me, it seems to me that much of the delay in school building is occasioned by the parties to the second part changing their minds now and again. Very often, a minor change in a school building may necessitate the production of a completely new set of plans. These are things on which the people, who are dealing with schools locally, ought to make up their minds. When they are quite clear and satisfied with a certain proposal, then there will be no difficulty or slowness so far as the Department is concerned.

Other developments during the past year were the introduction of conciliation and arbitration machinery to deal with salaries and emoluments paid by the State to primary and to secondary teachers.

There is a continued increase in the number of pupils attending secondary schools. For the year 1950-51 the number of recognised pupils was 48,559, which is 1,494 more than the previous years. The number of recognised secondary schools has increased from 416 in 1949-50 to 424 in 1950-51.

Vocational education, also, shows a continual expansion in all its phases. In the year 1950-51 the number of students enrolled in whole-time day courses was 17,885 as compared with 16,430 in the previous session. In the evening classes the total of 39,885 showed an increase of a little over 1,000 on the previous session.

The demand for enrolment in whole-time day continuation courses for the session 1949-50 was again, in the large urban centres and in the county boroughs, in excess of the accommodation available. Consequently, in some centres classes in general subjects overflowed the workshops and the domestic rooms. In rural areas accommodation generally was adequate.

The certificates given by the Department to successful students at the end of the two years' course are now widely accepted as evidence of qualification for certain types of employment. For instance, apprenticeship in the motor car engineering trade is confined to boys who have secured the manual training group certificate, and the Electricity Supply Board, Córas Iompair Éireann and Messrs. Arthur Guinness and Son make a somewhat similar stipulation. The largest increase in candidates was in the group mentioned, where the figure rose from 1,200 to 1,429.

Technical instruction for apprentices and others engaged in trade and industry is largely confined to the cities and bigger towns, although provision is also made for specialised instruction in particular trades in rural areas where a demand exists.

Remarkable work under this heading is being done particularly by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee with the active co-operation of the employers and the trade unions. Other areas, too, are doing valuable work of this kind.

During 1949-50 and 1950-51 the Department continued to co-operate to the fullest extent with the university extension courses organised by the University Colleges of Cork and Dublin in conjunction with vocational education committees. These courses were originally provided in Cork, under the inspiration of the president of University College there, for trade unionists, employers and young workers, and in the three or four years of their existence, they developed rapidly, spreading to Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Clonmel, Fermoy and Killarney.

During the present session they have been extending to smaller towns, and are beginning to penetrate to rural areas in Munster. Similar courses were organised by University College, Dublin, in Carlow, Kilkenny and Wexford in conjunction with the local vocational committees. I should also mention a special course of this type organised by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee at the High School of Commerce, Rathmines.

Another promising development in the sphere of adult education is the establishment of choral classes. A scheme of choral classes was organised by County Cork Vocational Education Committee during the session 1948-49, with a permanent whole-time teacher of Irish and choral singing as special organiser. Largely as a result, choirs were successfully established during 1949-50 in 24 centres in County Cork, mainly in rural areas, and the movement is spreading in other counties. Apart from their cultural aspect, such choirs have a social importance as being of great help in Church ceremonies, concerts and feiseanna.

The number under detention in the boy's reformatory school on 31st December, 1950, was 175, as compared with 187 on 31st December, 1949. Improved accommodation, which includes new wings and comprises classrooms, dormitories, ablution rooms and workshops, is being provided. One of these wings has already been completed and it is expected that a contract will be placed during the present month for the erection of the second wing.

The girls' school in Limerick had 28 under detention on 31st December, 1950, as against 31 on 31st December, 1949, and in the girls' school in Kilmacud, certified recently for a special type of girl, there were 12 under detention on 31st December, 1950.

The State capitation grant for maintenance in reformatories has been increased from 12/- to 14/6 weekly as from 1st January this year, following representations made by the managers of the schools, and provision is being made for 1951-52 for 260 youthful offenders in these schools at a cost of £9,850 as compared with 290 youthful offenders at a cost of £9,100 in 1950-51. As from the 1st April, 1951, the grant from local authorities, hitherto varying from 11/- to 12/-, is increased to a figure varying from 12/6 to 13/6 per week per pupil.

The State capitation grant for industrial schools, of which there are 51 in all, has also been increased by 2/6 weekly (from 9/6 to 12/-) as from 1st January, 1951. Grants payable by the local authority have been increased by an equivalent amount as from 1st April, 1951.

There were 3,117 girls under detention in industrial schools on 31st December, 1950. This is a decrease of 104 on the previous year.

In the boys' industrial schools, the number under detention on 31st December, 1950, was 2,742, as compared with 2,848 on 31st December, 1949.

The industrial school at Baltimore, County Cork, was closed on 30th September, 1950, with the concurrence of the committee of management.

I have used a word there which I dislike—the word "detention". I think the intention behind it is better. I believe that we do more for the children than detain them.

A special feature in connection with the Science and Art Vote this year is the proposal to increase from £1,500 to £5,000 the provision for the survey and reproduction of Irish historical records in foreign collections.

All such documents, in so far as they are catalogued in libraries throughout Europe, have already been listed by the National Library up to 1200 A.D., and Deputies may be surprised to know that only about 8 per cent. of our records up to that date are to be found in Ireland itself.

The intention is to make a beginning on the systematic microfilming of all these documents, so that this important part of our title-deeds to nationhood shall not perish from the earth.

I have not so far touched on the question of Irish. I have thought it better to deal with it as a separate item. There are so many activities in regard to the revival of the language, both inside and outside the classroom, that I have thought it better to glance at them generally rather than to try to relate the position to the individual Votes with which I am concerned.

In presenting the Estimates for 1948-49, my predecessor expressed the view that it was imperative that all schools in purely Irish-speaking districts where Irish is the natural language of the home and of the community should be placed under a special inspectorial eye from the point of view of primary education. Arrangements were accordingly made for the appointment of a special inspector for each of the three main Gaeltacht areas. In addition to the ordinary supervision of the work of the schools in their districts these inspectors are entrusted with other special functions and duties designed to secure the active co-operation of all residents in revitalising the language and strengthening its position in these areas. Their special duties also include the fostering and promotion of cultural activities and recreations, with particular reference to the development of drama through the production of plays in Irish in local schools and halls and to securing increased facilities for the provision of reading material in Irish at local centres.

I am of the belief that definite advances have been made in these areas in the development of cultural activities, and that a very praiseworthy degree of co-operation has been obtained from all groups.

It is the policy of the Department to make the teaching of Irish in vocational schools as attractive as possible, and, for this reason, the training for the Teastas Timire Gaeilge, the qualification required of teachers of Irish, includes practice in the teaching of drama, singing and dancing in so far as they are associated with the language.

Inspectors report on the difficulty of securing a good enrolment and attendance while the work is confined to the formal teaching of the language, but classes which cater for social activities through the medium of Irish succeed well.

Apart from the work done in the schools and directly under the supervision of each branch, an innovation that should have a stimulating effect on the teaching of Irish in all types of school is a course in language teaching which the Department proposes to hold in July this year in the Dominican Convent, Eccles Street, Dublin, with the kind permission of the convent authorities. This course will be conducted by distinguished experts in language teaching from abroad and at home, and its principal aim will be to show how difficulties in language teaching have been met and surmounted elsewhere. It will be open to national, secondary and vocational teachers, and it is hoped that one result will be to enable those teachers who attend to apply the most scientific methods to the teaching of Irish and, where these succeed, to so spread the light to other teachers.

Another experiment proposed this year is to increase by £500 the provision for the National Film Institute on condition that part at least of the increased provision be devoted to dubbing films in Irish or otherwise synchronising Irish with films. While on the subject of the National Film Institute I would like to mention that the Department finds the institute most helpful and co-operative in regard to the use of films and film strips in schools, and I understand that other Departments find it no less helpful.

The five bodies concerned with dramatic productions in Irish are Taibhdheare na Gaillimhe, an Cómhar Drámaíochta, an Compántas, Cumann Drámaíochta na Scol and the various dramatic societies that have sprung up in the Gaeltacht.

The Taibhdhearc had its annual subsidy increased from £1,000 to £2,000 two years ago, and as a result has been enabled to do much-needed refitting and repairs to its theatre in Galway and to extend its activities from Galway City to various parts of the surrounding Gaeltacht, including the Aran Islands.

A notable feature of its last session was its playing as a special facet of its work, a translation of "St. Joan" to a packed house in the Gaiety Theatre, Dublin. No doubt many Deputies who had an opportunity of attending made a point of seeing for themselves the excellent work of this voluntary group.

The Cómhar Drámaíochta continues likewise to keep up its good name for a high level of professional acting, and its Christmas pantomime in the Abbey Theatre has come to be regarded as one of the most popular theatrical events of the year.

An Compántas, with its variety shows, in its turn does much to popularise Irish with those of the public who attend the theatre rather for amusement than through interest in dramatics.

It is pleasing to note that Cumann Drámaíochta na Scol, the Schools Dramatic League, which appeared some years ago to be moribund as a result of travelling difficulties during the war, has in the last two years come to very vigorous life again.

However, the most remarkable extension of dramatic activity during the past 12 months, and in my view, fundamentally the most important, has occurred in the Gaeltacht itself.

Up to 1950 the systematic production of plays in the Gaeltacht was confined mainly to County Donegal. Last year, after the inspectors appointed specially for schools in the Gaeltacht two years ago had had time to become familiar with their districts, it was decided to increase from £100 to £500 the subsidy towards the production of plays in the Gaeltacht, and that any companies that sprang up should receive full co-operation from the special inspectors. For the effect of this comparatively small increased expenditure a comparison of the position in 1949-50 with that of 1950-51 speaks for itself. Whereas in 1949-50 a total of eight companies (all in County Donegal) participated in the scheme, in 1950-51 the figure for County Donegal alone was eight companies, for Connacht ten companies, and for Munster five companies.

Another noteworthy advance is the establishment in the Munster area of a widely represented general committee, with several local committees, to foster the development not alone of drama but also of concerts, lectures, feiseanna, etc., for the various Gaeltacht districts in that area.

This year Comhaltas Uladh celebrates the jubilee of its foundation. In the 25 years of its existence Comhaltas Uladh has achieved magnificent work for Irish, both in the Gaeltacht areas in Donegal and throughout the province of Ulster generally. The Comhaltas is planning to strengthen the position in the Gaeltacht further by erecting halls which would serve as centres both for summer schools and for dramatic and social activities. The first of these halls is to be built in the Ros Guill Gaeltacht, and to mark the occasion of the jubilee, and as an earnest of the appreciation of the Government for the work which the Comhaltas is doing, it is proposed to give a State grant of £2,500 towards the erection of the Ros Guill Gaeltacht hall.

This was an idea of my predecessor's, and I think it was a good idea. The idea of special inspectors was also one of my predecessor's. I think it was a brilliant idea. With regard to the grant of which I spoke, provision has not been made in the Estimates this year for the project, but I am asking the House to agree that a Supplementary Estimate be passed for this payment of £2,500.

Tá fhios againn go bhfuil socair ag an Dáil deireadh a chur lena cuid oibre Déardaoin seo chugainn agus go bhfuil mórchuid Meastachán le cur tríd an Dáil inniu mar tá socair go mbeidh díospóireacht Meastacháin an Taoisigh agus Meastacháin Gnóthaí Eachtracha amárach agus athrú amárach. Dá bhrí sin ní dóigh liom gur féidir díospóireacht a bheith ar an Meastachán seo i gcomhair Roinn an Oideachais fé mar ba chóir. Mar gheall ar sin níor mhaith liom mórán rudaí a rá ag cur síos orthu. Tá súil agam go mbeidh lá éigin eile againn go mbeidh caoi againn dul níos sia isteach san obair tháthachtach seo.

Because of the fact that the Dáil has decided to go into recess from Thursday next and because of the number of Estimates which have to be got through this evening—I understand that the Estimate for External Affairs and the Estimate for the Taoiseach's Department will occupy the whole of to-morrow and the day after—there is no possibility of having anything like an adequate discussion on the Estimate for Education or the statement the Minister has made, and I feel that it would be a distorting of very important matters to go further than to deal with one or two points.

I appreciate very much the line the Minister has taken generally in presenting the Estimate, and particularly his reference to the Council of Education. I feel that that body will provide the Minister, the Ministry and the general education services of the country with most valuable help. The Department of Education is a very intricate and very complex Department, and I think we are very blessed that we have in the Department the Civil Service organisation that we have. A Minister in the Department of Education could do an awful lot of damage and the Department of Education, run without ministerial control, or, rather, ministerial help, could be a very laborious and very distracting place to work in. When we see the fruits of the recommendations and discussions of the Council of Education, on the one hand, and the stimulus given to educational thought on the part of those who are the educators of the country, the teachers, by the atmosphere created by the Council of Education, on the other, we will realise what a very necessary extension of the ministerial function in the Department, if you like, the setting up of a Council of Education is.

I echo the Minister's thanks to those members who have worked so patiently and carefully in the Council of Education. I indicated, after the council was set up, that it was not my intention to sit on their doorstep listening to what was going on inside, and, during my term of office, I kept myself away from their discussions, because I felt that, having assembled a selection of people who were deeply engaged in educational work into a council, what we wanted was to get the real honest results of their experience, judgment and discussions. The Minister may, perhaps, have to wait for some time to get those results, but I feel that already the council has stimulated activity and a desire to pass on the experience of those who are the real educators of the country, that is, those who work in the schools.

I am happy to realise that the conciliation machinery set up for the primary teachers has been able to come to a conclusion which the Minister has been able to agree with at the conciliation stage. One of the things which I think it is very important to do is to allow our organised teachers, primary, secondary and vocational, to turn their minds to pedagogical experience and pedagogical work and to give to our general education system the benefits of their experience in a detached and, as I might say, a personal and individual way, because the educational experience of individual teachers is the most precious thing we have to keep by way of guidance in our policies in regard to training and technique in education. I feel that we have reached a very satisfactory stage when, having set up machinery of conciliation and arbitration to deal with teachers' salaries, it has been possible to find agreement as between the Ministry and the primary teachers at the conciliation stage.

I know that vocational teachers have not yet been brought to the point at which they have arbitration and conciliation machinery, and I hope it will be possible for the Minister to solve the difficulties that lie there. The difficulties arose from the fact that the vocational teachers have been in some way related to a cost-of-living bonus and any changes in their scales had to wait until the Civil Service Arbitration Report had been received; but, apart altogether from that, when whatever modification appropriate to the change in the cost of living has been made in their scales, this fact then remains, that of the 1,200 vocational teachers, 29 per cent. have the very same qualifications as would qualify them to teach in secondary schools; and 23 per cent. of this 1,200 are domestic economy teachers who have qualifications that would entitle them to teach as secondary teachers in secondary schools. It seems quite wrong that men and women, teaching in any one particular town in Ireland, would if they were teaching in a secondary school have different conditions of service and pay from what they would have if they were teaching in vocational schools. That is a matter that vocational teachers may have something to say about, as agreement has to be arrived at between them and the Minister as to what kind of conciliation and arbitration machinery is to be set up for them. I feel that it will come inevitably and while there are difficulties in the way I hope the Minister will be able to solve some of them.

It would distort the importance of matters that are very important if too many aspects of educational policy were discussed by me here to-day in the short time at our disposal. Therefore, in regard to urging any particular thing on the Minister, I would urge that additional facilities are required for the training of women primary teachers. The Minister will be aware that the training colleges at present for women primary teachers give us about 50 teachers a year from Limerick and 120 from Blackrock, making 165 in all: but the annual requirements at present—and they may increase within the next two years—are 230. That is to say, in order to fill vacancies that arise for trained teachers, we need an additional 60 or 65 women teachers every year. That is a very serious position to be in. It is arising in certain circumstances, but I think it has to be faced now. In addition to that, as long ago as 1946 it was definitely decided that the Department would, at the earliest possible moment, cease the appointing of untrained teachers. I think about 20 per cent. of the women teachers—I am speaking about women teachers now—of the country are untrained junior assistant mistresses. There is every reason dictated by experience why we should not have untrained teachers in our primary schools. Apart altogether from the 60 or 65 deficiencies in meeting our normal requirements for trained women teachers, there is the fact that about 70 additional trained teachers a year would be required, even of the junior assistant mistress status, to meet other vacancies that exist in the country. I think the Minister will find himself— and managers and parents and children will find themselves—in very serious difficulties in the next year or two, if there is not set up immediately an additional training college for women that will provide about 120 places, that is, in a two years' course it should give 60 additional teachers every year.

While I am not saying that we should get rid of the untrained teachers who are there at the moment —though untrained, they are definitely qualified, they are doing good work, and I do not think it should be intended to replace them—we are adding every year to the teacher corps about 70 untrained junior assistant mistresses and I feel that at a very early stage that should stop. There has been a 10,000 increase in the school-going population between 1947 and 1950. The Central Statistics Office has examined the situation, and I think they have indicated that between 1950 and 1955 or 1956 the number of additional children in the country between 4 years and 14 years of age, which is the school-going age for practical purposes, will be increased by 35,000. The Minister may have been sufficiently long in the Department to have run against the difficulties that managers find themselves in when they cannot find a teacher to take up when another teacher goes. The one thing that I would urge as a matter of vital importance to the whole well-being of the primary school system is that a new training college be established at once for about 120 places, that would guarantee 60 or 65 additional trained women teachers per year. Not only is there the lack of trained women lay teachers that I speak of, but the convent requirements are quite inadequately met by the present training colleges.

It will be suggested that the Council of Education is examining certain matters with regard to the function of the primary schools, and that certain changes may be recommended, say, from 12 years onwards. Also, the Interim Report of the Commission on Youth Unemployment in the City of Dublin, which was received four or five years ago, forewarned that when the report came out they would be recommending an increase in the school leaving age. It may be suggested that it would be time enough, when we see what the Council of Education has to say or what the Youth Unemployment Commission has to report to consider what plans or preparation ought to be made for the training of teachers. The most important, I might say the only, training of teachers that we have in this country is in the training colleges for primary teachers, and an examination of the achievements of the various schools would suggest what an important factor in our educational world is the work of the training colleges. Whatever educational development we may have, after the age of 12 or up to 15 or 16, we very definitely want more of the work that is being done in the training colleges in which men and women are being trained for the primary schools. That training could not possibly go to waste. It is wanted in our primary schools, no matter what kind of development occurs.

As from some time in 1948, the staffing arrangements in primary schools were somewhat improved. Nevertheless, in order to overcome some of the difficulties that teachers had in keeping up averages—the staffing of the school was related to average attendance— there was introduced a scheme of staffing based on enrolment. That enabled the staffing of schools to be kept in a stable way in spite of epidemics, in spite of sickness and in spite of the weather conditions that affect rural schools. A staffing plan based on enrolment was introduced that was favourable to the greater number of schools in this country. It worked out that in city schools staffing based on average attendance was of greater advantage. Actually, both of these were used as an alternative so that the introduction of staffing based on enrolment would not do damage to those schools that were already fairly poorly staffed and not on average attendance.

Now there is the alternative there but, nevertheless, I should like to mention some facts with regard to the conditions of appointment in primary schools here and, say, in primary schools in the Six Counties. For a first appointment of a principal and an assistant in a school here, an enrolment average of 60 is required. An enrolment average of 25 is sufficient for the first and succession appointment in the Six Counties. In order to have a principal and two assistants here, for first appointment you want to have 100, and for succession appointment 95. In the Six Counties you get a principal and two assistants where you have an average enrolment of 65.

When you come to a principal and four assistants, it requires for first appointment 220 here and for succession appointment 205. In the Six Counties, for a principal and four assistants, both for first and succession appointments, an average enrolment of 145 is required. The Minister ought not to allow anybody to persuade him on financial grounds that the staffing of the schools here can be tampered with or that changes can be made to meet this shortage that I spoke of. It cannot be done. I have already from these benches in the past referred to the bad staffing of schools in the City of Dublin. Unfortunately, I was not able to do very much about it partly because of the shortage of teachers and partly because of the lack of suitable accommodation. The main point I am aiming at is—more teachers are wanted. You want a small number of men teachers which, I believe, can be provided through the services of St. Patrick's Training College for men, Drumcondra, but you will want to give them facilities to meet their training requirements and you will want to get 65 women teachers a year that we are short of, or will be short of, in the years immediately in front of us. That shortage is there now. The Central Statistics Branch, in a survey made for the Department of Education, have indicated that there will be 35,000 more children of school-going age to be catered for in 1956 than are being catered for to-day. The setting up of a training college straightway capable of housing 120 women teachers would give no additional teachers for two years. It would not help in any way in making a contribution towards solving the annual problem of appointing about 70 untrained junior assistant mistresses which will continue to exist unless a second training college is established.

It will be said maybe that primary teachers should be sent to and trained in the university. I do not believe—I would offer my advice to the Minister for all it is worth—that properly trained primary teachers are to be got that way. If there is to be an improvement, and there can be an improvement in the atmosphere for training and in the atmosphere for instruction that primary teachers can get, that, in my opinion, can best be provided by improving the status of the professors in the training colleges and of the training colleges themselves. The one point I want to emphasise to the Minister now, not to distort any other matter in the sphere of education, is that he wants straightway an additional training college for women that will house 120 candidates for teacherships, and that when it is in proper working order it will turn out 60 additional lay women teachers every year. That will not meet all he wants. He will then want another which will enable him to stop the practice of putting untrained women teachers to the extent of 60 or 70 into the schools year after year.

I shall confine myself to one or two tabloid remarks owing to the shortness of time. The first thing I would like to urge on the Minister is the importance of coming to a decision as rapidly as possible in relation to the raising of the school-leaving age. I am sure the Minister agrees, and there is very little difference of view in the House, as to the necessity of ensuring a higher standard of education for all our people. The question of raising the school-leaving age has been canvassed and discussed for a considerable period of time, and we should be in a position to reach a decision on that issue fairly rapidly from now on. I am not raising this in any kind of a Party spirit, but I am sure it is a matter which should be examined objectively by the Minister and by Parties on both sides of the House.

Another matter which is probably simpler, apart from the financial provisions in relation to it is the number of scholarships granted to national school children. The number is grossly inadequate and is far below the standard given in any other country. I think the Minister would render a useful service not merely to the parents of the children but also to the nation if he could persuade the Department of Finance to make a greater sum available for the granting of scholarships.

It would not be possible in the space of time available to discuss the Department's policy in regard to the spread of the Irish language. Again, I feel that there is agreement in the House that it is the aim to make the Irish language the spoken language of the people. There are many different factors involved. The most alarming factor in recent years is the recession, if you like, of Irish in the Gaeltacht districts and along the western seaboard generally. That arises of course in part from the economic conditions, but I think it also arises largely from a lack of realisation of the constant and mounting influences that have to be combated if Irish is to survive in the Gaeltacht.

Day in, day out, not merely an alien language but an alien culture and civilisation is pumped into our people through the cinemas, through the radio, through magazines, through cheap books. I do not think that that problem can be dealt with merely by excluding these or by trying to limit their circulation. American and English films have come to stay and we cannot exclude them, but I do not think that we have faced up to the problem that these developments of the last 20 years or so have created in the weakening of the language and I would ask the Minister to consider ways and means of competing with these influences.

The scheme I have always been very keen on is the erection of halls right through the Gaeltacht on the basis of at least one hall per parish, these halls to be used for Irish drama, lectures, concerts and céilithe. They could be handed over, if you like, on a yearly trust either to the Comhdháil or the Gaelic League on condition that they be used only for entirely Irish-speaking functions. I know that a scheme of that kind will, of necessity, be costly, but I feel that if we are serious and sincere in our determination not merely to revive Irish as the spoken language of the people but to maintain Irish in the Gaeltacht, it is essential that we should put our own culture on a basis where it can compete with the influences that reach us from outside through the alien culture which is pumped day in, day out, into our people. I think that we can compete through drama, through music, through céilithe and through making life more attractive in the Gaeltacht. It may be a costly business, but I think that we must face up to that cost.

I do not think we can compete successfully by making films of our own or that we can produce a sufficient quantity of literature in Irish to be a sufficient counter-attraction to the literature and films which are being pumped in from outside. We can however compete through the means of parish halls and parish theatres. These, if they are to be of any value, must be thoroughly organised and first class. It will be necessary to run in conjunction with them special drama troupes and special concert troupes that would tour them the whole year round and provide entertainment the whole year round, and also to provide lectures and classes. Any attempt in that direction should be made on the basis that we can produce something better than is produced outside; we must be able to compete with outside influences. If possible, we must also develop a pride in our own language and culture. If these halls were erected I would like to see organised through them systematic tours of plays and concerts as well as céilithe. These halls could thus acquire a reputation outside the Gaeltacht areas in the same way as the Irish theatre in Galway. I should like to see the position where people from outside the Gaeltacht would actually go to these halls at different times of the year. I know that a scheme of that kind would be costly and that there would be a great deal of opposition, but I think that that is the only way we can maintain the Irish language in the Gaeltacht.

I do not wish any more than the preceding speakers to take up much time on this Estimate, but I would like to express my appreciation of the setting up of the Council of Education and to acknowledge the good effects which are already showing themselves throughout the schools now that such a council is in being. I also want to pay a tribute to the better relations which exist between our inspectors and our teachers throughout the country. With our Council of Education and our conciliation and arbitration boards I think that things may be much happier in future than they have been in the past for the primary teachers at any rate throughout the country.

I cannot let the occasion pass without referring to the revival of the Irish language. It has been mentioned that very great results are being obtained at the present time but I want to be realistic and factual on this matter. We are now at the end of 30 years of effort to revive the Irish language. I think that each Government has been anxious for the revival and that each Government has pursued substantially the same methods. No doubt the effort in the schools has been very intense but what do we find at the end of 30 years? We find here in Dublin that actually less Irish is spoken outside the schools and school circles. On the streets of Dublin, in the buses, in the lounge bars, in the hotels and in the dance halls you hear more Yiddish than Gaelic spoken. As between the two languages I think that from that point of view Yiddish appears in Dublin to have the upper hand. I know that in the English speaking parts of the country outside Dublin it is not so bad.

The chief hope we had, some 30 years ago, was that we could so strengthen and extend the Fior Gaeltacht that we would create a spring that would nourish the rest of the country and, in time, make the whole of Ireland Irish-speaking. That has proved a vain hope. From my own observation, I think the Fior Gaeltacht districts have shrunk and that the position has weakened. From that, I conclude that something is, and has been up to now, very wrong. I think the time is ripe for a real stocktaking and a change of methods with regard to the revival of the language. Now that we have a Council of Education I shall not be presumptuous enough to offer suggestions but if such a council were not in existence I should put forward suggestions which I think might be useful. I urge the necessity for an intense effort and a change of methods in the matter of the revival of the Irish language.

Now that the serving teachers have been more or less satisfied—I need not say that they are not fully satisfied: nobody is ever fully satisfied—and that they have got an increase in their salaries and other emoluments through the medium of the conciliation board which was set up by the previous Minister for Education, I should like to bring the case of teachers who retired prior to the 1st January, 1950, to the attention of the Minister. As the Minister is aware, all national teachers who retire since that date receive a retiring gratuity, but a large number of teachers who retired previous to that date do not come under that rule. Provision was made in that connection in Northern Ireland some years ago and if such an arrangement can be come to in the Six Counties surely our Government should be able to do likewise.

Serving teachers will now receive an extra sum of £1,000,000 odd per annum. I understand that a retiring gratuity necessary to satisfy the teachers who retired before the 1st January, 1950, would be in the neighbourhood of £1,000,000 also—but once you make provision for that, and pay it, you are finished with it. I think that these teachers who did their work well and who taught in even more difficult days than our own deserve that that provision should be made for them. As the previous Minister did so much good towards improving the conditions of teachers, both as regards salaries and conditions of service, I hope that the new Minister will now do a very good service and satisfy this body of retired teachers in such a way that they will never have occasion to trouble him again.

Another question that a number of serving teachers would like to see settled is the question of retirement on marriage, which is compulsory in the case of lady teachers. It can be argued that the place for the mother is in the home, but experience through the years has shown that married women teachers have been amongst the most successful in our schools, and that the children of the home do not suffer. We can easily understand that a lady teacher who has definitely made up her mind to get married will not take that interest in her school work which she would take if she felt that her marriage would not mean her retirement from the profession. In the ordinary way, if she felt that she could teach for years and years, she would pay far more attention to her work. There are many other reasons why it would be well, not only for the lady teachers concerned, but also for education in general, if the Minister would now look into the whole matter and see what can be done to remove the ban.

The heating, cleaning and maintenance of schools are matters that have caused a great deal of trouble to managers and teachers. The arrangements made and the grants allowed are not satisfactory. The grants are insufficient, especially when they are given on an average basis. It is easy to understand that if there are two or three rooms in a school and an average of, say, 100 on the one hand and then, on the other hand, an average of only 30 or 40, it will take the same amount of fuel to heat the school no matter what the average may be. The managers are responsible for the heating and cleaning of the schools but they have no fund at their disposal. It is rather difficult to solve the question. I suggest that the Minister should call a conference representative of the teachers, the managers and the Department of Education to see if they can hammer out some scheme by which the heating and cleaning of schools can be arranged on some satisfactory basis.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I understand that he has the name of being a decent, fair-minded man and I think his appointment was very favourably received by the members of the I.N.T.O. I wish him success in his Department. If he will carry out what I suggest in connection with retired teachers, the question of retirement on marriage of lady teachers and the matter of the heating and cleaning of schools he will earn the gratitude not only of the teaching profession but also of the managers and the people in general.

I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister the necessity for the provision of sanitary accommodation in the rural schools. Apparently, schools not directly under the board will not get the same concession as schools which are directly under the board. For a long time past there seems to have been a bone of contention between the board and the managers. I think a move was made by the last Minister to be more generous with the schools under the managers than they were before that.

I am sure that no one knows better than the Minister that there are schools in the North Cork health area which are absolutely scandalous from the point of view of lack of sanitary facilities. How the pupils in these schools can assimilate any knowledge is beyond my comprehension and I am sure that it is beyond the comprehension of others also who are very interested in the scholars. I would ask the Minister to get in touch with the Department of Finance or the Department of Local Government—I think that the Department of Finance would be the principal obstacle—and ask them to be more generous with their allowances for the development of sanitary and water schemes for these schools.

In my first contribution to the debate on the Estimate for this Department in 1948 I stressed the point to the then Minister, now Deputy Mulcahy, that I thought that the responsible education authorities could do a little more than they were doing in the matter of inculcating a publicminded spirit in the scholars—the boys of to-day who undoubtedly will be the men of to-morrow. I have said before that I think it is desirable that the National Flag should be flown on one day in each week or in each month in all our schools and the school children should be taught at an age when they are most impressionable that they should honour, cherish and respect the flag of their country. Possibly, too, a recording of the National Anthem could be played to teach the children respect for that anthem.

Of course the National Anthem now is "Sinne Fianna Fáil".

Is mar sin a cuntar é.

I do not not know whether Deputy Keane will fly the National Flag over insanitary schools.

He would not have to fly them over too many when you take everything into consideration.

Deputy Keane on the Estimate, please.

The proper time during which to inculcate a proper national spirit into our children is during their school years. I do not want to add to the existing burdens of the teachers. We all know that they are carrying out their duties most competently and we all know that they are more than prepared to give assistance when required. I am sure that they would be more than willing to help to inculcate a deep rooted spirit of nationality in our children.

It is painful at times to see the lack of respect that is shown when our National Anthem is played. It is said that "familiarity breeds contempt" and possibly that may have something to do with the present unsatisfactory situation whereunder one observes that our anthem and our flag do not get the respect to which they are entitled. Sometimes I wonder how far have we advanced in national concepts over the past 30 years of native Government.

Deputy Palmer has spoken at length on the subject of the Irish language. I know that when I was a member of Craobh an Chéitinnigh I was much more fluent in speaking Irish than I am to-day. Possibly, the psychological aspect of the situation should be examined more fully. I do not feel competent to make suggestions to people who are much more expert at Irish than I am. As a native speaker, the Minister must realise that something is wrong. It may be that the old Gaelic League spirit is dying out or that Irish is commercialised. It is inevitable that as time goes on and objects are achieved and ambitions realised there should be a tendency to revert.

I trust that the present Minister will continue in the footsteps of his predecessor. When Deputy General Mulcahy established the arbitration and conciliation boards he succeeded to a great extent in bringing about a rapprochement between the teachers and the ordinary taxpayer. Salaries have been increased substantially and I would appeal to the teachers to rest content with the increases for the time being. I cannot quite understand what happened in the Department of Finance. I think Finance must have got some kind of hypodermic. That is the only thing that will explain their “flaithiúlachtness” because never before has Finance proved so liberal.

I would appeal to the Minister to consider the points made by Deputy Palmer in relation to teachers who resigned or retired prior to the 1st January, 1950. Those teachers following the establishment of a native Government here had to go and learn Irish. They did that quite willingly and they made a good job of it. Those teachers were appreciated by the parents. I would appeal to the Minister to give those who retired in 1950 the benefit of the increases so far as gratuity is concerned. That would only be justice to them. They have reached the winter of their lives and they would be glad of some improvement in their present position.

The Minister has a very tough job. Education is a perennial topic of conversation. I am sure the Minister will do all he can to improve education. He is the first Minister for Education who hails from Cork and we expect a good deal from him.

The Minister has stated that he did not intend making any drastic changes in the Department of Education. For a new Minister, that is a wise temporary step, but I say that at the end of five years no drastic changes will have taken place; nor at the end of another five years will any drastic changes have taken place. Yet, there is no Department of the Government in which drastic changes are so needed as in the Department of Education. It is the same in other countries. Education seems to suffer financially in many countries but I would say that things are worse here. It is not a popular thing to vote large sums of money to the Department of Education. It is claimed that it is not a capital investment, and for that reason it has become more or less the Cinderella of all the Departments. There are many changes required; many things have to be attended to. Firstly, decent school buildings must be made available for our Irish children. Then the matter of heating and cleaning of these schools needs careful and vigorous overhauling.

Credit has been given to the Minister for the way he sanctioned increases in salaries recommended by the conciliation committee but those increases represent only a fraction of the just demand of the teachers. Those increases will tend to bring teachers' salaries up to the same level as salaries enjoyed in other professions the members of which possess the same or a lower standard of education, but they compare, even yet, very unfavourably with the Black Scale in Northern Ireland or the Burnham Scale in England. Pensioners, even under the new recommendation, have been neglected. We must remember that these pensioners taught at very difficult times in our history. They were pioneers in the work of restoring the Irish language at a time when it was not popular to do any pioneer work in that direction. It is unfair especially that teachers who retired prior to the 1st January, 1950, should not get the benefit of the retiring gratuity. There is a case quoted of two brothers, one retiring on 1st December, 1949, and the other retiring on 1st January, 1950. They had the same length of service but one retired with a gratuity while the other did not receive any such payment.

In the different branches of education —primary, technical, secondary and university—there should be more harmony and more dove-tailing. I think that the break which occurs between primary and technical education could be remedied by having the school-leaving age increased to 16 years, but with the present shortage of teachers and the inadequacy of school buildings it is impossible to do that at the moment. The shortage of teachers is again related to the question of salary. Young men who are advised by their parents in the adoption of a career, are certainly not advised to follow teaching as a profession. I have known boys who passed the preparatory school entrance examination—that is one of the easiest ways of becoming a teacher—and who yet would not avail of the scholarship because their parents, who were ordinary country people, said that far more could be earned at an earlier age in any trade like carpentry, masonry, or the other manual trades. These are points which must be looked into. It is in the interests of the nation, the interests of the men and women of to-morrow, that changes, and drastic changes, should be made. Wireless should be made available in every school. I think the Department would put forward many points against adopting such a course, but it is necessary because in rural schools it would broaden the outlook of the children and give them an added interest in affairs outside the immediate school area.

The Minister mentioned that Comhaltas Uladh was celebrating its silver jubilee, and that it had done great work for the language. These statements are true. Comhaltas Uladh wishes to impress upon the Minister the necessity of having sufficient text books in the Ulster dialect. Teachers find, at the end of the school year, when making selections for their classes, that out of a large number of Irish text books sanctioned by the Department, a very small percentage— I would say only about 10 per cent.— are in the Donegal or Ulster dialect. It is not fair to the work that the Comhaltas has done that it should be in this respect penalised.

I recommend to Deputies who have not had an opportunity of hearing Deputy Butler speak here to-day on the Education Estimate to read and inwardly digest his observations. They provide quite an interesting and intriguing echo of the progressive disintegration of Fianna Fáil and, for that reason, deserve close study by anybody interested in the probable future of this country. God help Deputy Butler, because, if I know anything of his colleagues and the machine to which he belongs, it is not through a mangle he will be passed, but through a tumbler when the boys get him behind closed doors. However, let me console him, as they proceed to eviscerate him, by assuring him that he put the cat amongst the pigeons most effectively. Deputy Butler, speaking with a very long experience of education, said that the Irish language was very much less used outside the schools to-day than it was 30 years ago. He and his colleagues can speculate on the reason. I can tell them the reason.

We have travelled a long road since I was 20 years of age and a number of young men and girls of my age used to assemble one night every week in Stephen's Green for no other purpose than to have the opportunity of speaking Irish. None of us were looking for jobs; none of us were hoping to qualify for treatment that we did not deserve in the Civil Service; none of us were trying to edge out of public employment candidates who technically were our superiors but who refused to stoop to the degradation of "a chara" and "mise le meas mór". What has thrown Irish back in this country is the growing conviction that it has become an instrument of corruption and a means of procuring preference for the relatively incompetent over the competent. Nothing has filled me with more nausea during my period as a Minister of State in this country than to see highly competent candidates for public employment placed first by the Civil Service Commissioners who had examined them in the technical sphere and then to have those placings sent to a star chamber court that sat in private and examined them.

Coalition court.

Deputy Cunningham is a new Deputy. I have a rough tongue because I have been a long time in Dáil Éireann. I do not want young Deputies to draw me into discourtesy to them, but if they interrupt me and I hit out, they must not go weeping around the corridors that Deputy Dillon is a very rude man. When Deputy Cunningham is as long in this job as I am he will come to realise that if a young fellow interrupts him in the middle of his discourse, the young fellow is liable to get a wallop. Deputy Seán Flanagan up there in the back benches will tell him he understands that. I understand he gave somebody two wallops——

Suppose we come back to the Estimate now.

I am trying to without being too abrupt. Nothing disgusted me more than to see those returns made by the Appointments Commission setting the people in order of preference according to their technical competence sent to a star chamber court by the Civil Service Commissioners where judgment upon their capacity in Irish was then passed; you frequently found the man who was eight or ninth on the list lifted up to the first place and six or seven superior candidates denied the post in the public service to which they aspired and their appointment to which would have benefited the public service, because some technically incompetent person was more glib with his "a chara" and "mise le meas mór."

I love the language and I learned to love the language when there was no money in it, and I learned the language in Ballingeary and Cloghaneely when there was nobody in either of those colleges who hoped to get any money out of it. Every one of us in Teach Luasaigh, Ballingeary, Cloghaneely or whether it was in Gortachoirce or Bunbeg, was there because we loved the language. Its acquisition qualified us for no preferment and for no monetary reward. I gave up going to Ballingeary or Cloghaneely only when those colleges became infested with "tulips," male and female, who came there for no other purpose than to try and qualify themselves to get jobs that they were not technically qualified to hold. Having failed to attain a high degree of proficiency in the work they proposed to undertake, they thought that, by equipping themselves with "a chara" and "mise le meas mór," they might steal in by the back door. The Civil Service and the local authorities are still with such people.

I still love the language, but instead of seeing it made an instrument of that base kind of corruption, I believe there is yet time to restore it to the position to which it is entitled in this country, to raise it high in the estimation of our people and to make its mastery the ambition of the best in all our future generations. I propose to outline now, in not more than six minutes, how that could be done to-morrow, to the great advantage of the language, to the great advantage of education and to the great advantage of our people in every branch of their daily lives.

One of the reproaches of any democratic community in the world must be that the son of well-to-do parents has access to avenues of education which may well be denied to a much more richly endowed child whose parents happen to be without means. I never walk through a slum street in Dublin or along a country road without, again and again, being rendered conscience-stricken by the knowledge that I, and the likes of me, had educational opportunities which, were they available to some poor children, could have been made much more of by them than I was capable of making them. Nevertheless, those poor children never will have access to such facilities as their parents are highly unlikely, in any economic set-up based on Christian democracy, to be in a position to finance it, because what I feel are the minima due to a child richly endowed by God with brains is the right and opportunity to secure education from the first book in the national school to the Doctorate of Philosophy, if that is where his talents are calculated to bring him. Irish, instead of being an instrument of corruption and shame, could be made by this House now the passport to that standard of education for every child in every school in Ireland. While at the same time crowning the language, we could banish from our society the reproach that poor people cannot use the talents God gave them, while the well-to-do may waste the opportunities afforded them.

What, then, shall we do? I suggest to the Minister that all the "cod" expenditure that goes on at present to satisfy the multitudinous vested interests who trot around the Irish language night and day to see what they can get out of it be cancelled out, and that we ought to say to every child in every national school in Ireland: "The road is open to you, without imposing the burden of a penny piece on your parents, be they rich or be they poor, to be a doctor or a philosopher if you, a five-year-old child, start burning your modest modicum of midnight oil studying Irish. If you take Irish and bend your mind to it in the national school and, when you come to taking your leaving diplomas in the national school, you choose to offer yourself for a special examination of a relatively high standard for a national school in Irish and attain the honours standard, you will get a scholarship to the secondary school on this understanding: that when you take your intermediate in the secondary school and when you do your leaving certificate or matriculation, whatever other subjects you take, contemporaneously you present yourself for a special examination in Irish in which the standard will be high, and get honours in it, you will get a scholarship to the university."

When I say a scholarship I mean a scholarship, because for a labouring man's son from Kerry or Cork a scholarship of £60 a year, to attend the National University, is useless, because, while it may be useful to a relatively well-to-do person for his son to get £60, how can a labouring man send his child to Dublin to live in digs and attend lectures on £60 a year? That scholarship, related to a scholarship in the Irish language, must be a scholarship which affords a successful student the cost of his digs, the cost of his books, the cost of his fees and, if necessary, clothes suitable to his new walk in life and, let us face it, an exiguous but modest provision in respect of pocket money, because there is no use in asking boys or girls to attend the university, who never have a penny in their pockets. I do not mean that they should get an extravagant weekly allowance to dissipate in tomfoolery, but that they must have a few shillings in their pockets once a week to live normally, is an inescapable fact, unless we spoil the whole ship for a ha'porth of tar.

That student on entering college should be fixed with notice that the faculty to which he wishes to belong is his own business, but that so long as he passes in the academic examination relating to the faculty to which he attaches himself each year and, at the same time, continues to present himself in a special examination in the Irish language contemporaneously, taking honours in it, he can proceed on that scholarship to the doctorate of whatever faculty he chooses to join. I constantly hear the Taoiseach talking about the value of the language and the impossibility of saving it should it die in our time. He is right in that. But does he mean it? Because, if he does mean it, it seems to me fantastic to meet the proposal I now make with the excuse that it would cost too much.

That degree of education ought to be open to every child in the country if children are to be afforded an opportunity of using the talents God gave them. It would be wrong, I think, to open the doors of education on that scale to the whole community, just as I think it is wrong for well-to-do parents to try to force children through a university course for which they are quite unfitted. Some children have talents for academic learning; others have talents for technical instruction; others have talents for a trade and other occupations. But the child who is prepared to make an academic effort to attain to a high standard of proficiency in colloquial Irish marks himself out as a child fitted for academic education and you have operating continually a power of selection which functions automatically: for the child who yearns for education and has the capacity to purchase it by acquiring a high degree of proficiency in Irish has the two qualities which are guaranteed to glean good value from whatever educational opportunities are afforded.

Given that such a scheme were operated as from to-morrow, there would start pouring out of our universities in our time a steady stream of educated men and women who had attained all their education through the instrumentality of the Irish language and all of them would be highly proficient exponents of the language.

The last advantage to note in the plan is this. If there is one thing our people revere, it is learning. If Irish becomes a master key of higher education and learning in this country, ultimately it shares in the reverence our people pay to learning; ultimately it becomes associated in the minds of our people with learning; it becomes a hallmark of superior education. Not for the first time in this House I point out that in pre-war Russia the people who spoke French and Russian proclaimed themselves to be the educated elements of society. In this country our aim should be to establish in the minds of our people that people who spoke Irish and English were the educated elements of our community and that the monolingual might or might not be distinguished academically.

There is the means of restoring the Irish language to the place of honour from which it should never have been dashed down. There is the means of putting behind us the whole noisome concept that the language has become the means to deprive those technically competent of the preferment to which they are entitled in favour of those who never acquired technical competence. There is the means of ending forever the reproach which all of us should feel that the poor man's child in Ireland, eager, willing and anxious to use the talents which God gave him, can be denied the opportunity. There is an exciting adventure founded on the language. There is a cause in which the language could be nobly used. Is there the slightest prospect of anyone adopting it? Far less than the snowball has in hell. There is no money in it; there are no votes in it; there is no electoral advantage in it. But it should be noted for the records, because some day it will be done and, if I am any judge of the future, it will save the language. But, when we come to save it, we will have to do it in spite of Fianna Fáil.

Those of us who believe in the principle laid down in the Proclamation of 1916 of equal opportunity for all the children of the nation must find in the speech delivered by Deputy Dillon some hope for the future, not on the aspect of the Irish language on which he based it, but on the aspect of free education for all the children of the nation from the primary school to the university.

Will the Deputy qualify that by saying "who are qualified to take advantage of it?"

Absolutely. Like Deputy Dillon, I agree that many people are sent to the universities who are unfit to be in the universities, who should not be in them; that there are many children of talent kept out of the universities because their parents have not the means to send them there, who should be there, and could be there with advantage, not only to the nation, but perhaps to the world as well. I am one of those who believe in that type of free education. I have been advocating it for many years and I sincerely hope that, before many years have passed, we will be able to create in the minds of the people a desire for that free education, with equal opportunity for all our citizens, so that the talents and abilities of the children of the nation may be utilised in the interests of the nation and, perhaps, as I say, in the interests of the world.

Now, I have intervened in this debate to support the plea that was made here this evening for the retired teachers. I also want to make a plea on behalf of certain "Jams"—junior assistant mistresses. They are divided into two sections, one appointed before a particular date, and another appointed after a particular date. I understand that there is approximately a difference of £100 per annum in the salaries of these particular grades. I intend to take that matter up with the Minister. I am only mentioning it on this Estimate to indicate that there is considerable objection amongst the teachers affected by that unfair discrimination which seems to have no basis whatsoever in reason. It was an arbitrary decision taken at some time by somebody and continued on. Those people are doing the same type of work and have the same responsibilities, and they feel, and I think rightly so, that they ought to have the same remuneration.

There have been certain references to the condition of our schools. Everybody knows that the conditions in some of the primary schools right through the country are a disgrace, and that the conditions in some of our city schools are an absolute disgrace. There is overcrowding and there are insanitary conditions. Some are almost derelict structures in which the teachers are expected to teach and the children are expected to learn. I understand that the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, some short time ago, sent out a circular to all teachers asking them for very simple information as to the conditions obtaining in their own schools: the size of the rooms, the number of pupils, data in regard to sanitation and the age of the school—ordinary information that one would expect would be accumulated by any organisation which had the interests of the pupils, the interests of the teachers and the general interest of education at heart.

I understand that that document was described as the most revolutionary document that was issued in this State since the Irish Free State was founded, and that the document was withdrawn. Now, I think that is a serious matter. I think that all of us ought to be concerned about the conditions in the schools, and that all of us ought to understand and appreciate the position, and on whom the responsibility rests in connection with the conditions in the schools. I think that, having some responsibility to the young generation and to future generations, we ought to see that such steps as are necessary to put an end to these horrible conditions are taken as soon as possible.

I come across, in the course of my ordinary work, applications in the court to send children away to industrial schools, to schools which are under the control of the Minister. I have seen some of these applications based on cruelty by the father—that the father was excessive in his punishment of the child. I did see one case where there was an allegation of the stealing of money by a child, in which the father used something in the nature of a cane on the buttocks of the child. Certain marks were left, and there was an application in the court, because of that, to have the child taken away from the control of its parent and put into one of these schools under the control of the Minister. I am one of those people who think that family control, and the responsibilities of parents, ought to be interfered with as little as possible.

I think there is too much interference at the moment, particularly in regard to children. Although we have no divorce laws, separations are being made in the courts day after day, but that is not relevant to this debate. There is too much interference with the responsibility of the parents in regard to their children and children are being taken away from their parents and sent into these schools without a proper appreciation of what is involved in that action.

Only recently have certain complaints come to my notice, one of which I have referred to the Minister already, about cruel treatment of children in the schools. If a parent is alleged to have acted cruelly, he is brought up in court, and there is some investigation, but when these little children are sent away to some of these schools and there is an allegation of cruel treatment in regard to them, there are no court proceedings, no investigations in the open, and I am asking the Minister, because I know he is interested in this problem and interested in the children, to set up machinery that will ensure that there will be no complaints of cruelty of that type. I put it no more strongly than that complaints have come to me recently, one of which, as I say, I have referred to the Minister for investigation. The Minister and the House will agree that it is important that there should be no cause for complaint, that there should be no suggestion of complaint, and that such steps as are necessary to make sure that there will be no suggestion of complaint will be taken by the Minister.

I know that the authorities in these schools are doing excellent work, invaluable work, but none of us would be anxious that out-of date methods of punishment that we abhor, cruelties, should be adopted, even though that cruelty and that punishment may be considered to be in the best interests of the child. Certainly, if the father of a child can be brought up in court and deprived of control of the child simply because he has used a cane on the buttocks of the child and left marks, no authority in the State should be permitted to use that same form of punishment without some investigation or inquiry into it. I am satisfied that the Minister, having the same interests as all humanitarians have in these children, will take such steps as are necessary to ensure that there will be no suggestion of complaint against these institutions in the future. If he does so, and if the remarks I am making this evening have the effect of putting an end to even a suggestion of ill-treatment, I feel that these remarks of mine will have been justified.

I should like to support those Deputies who have spoken in favour of raising the school-leaving age. I hope that it will be the Minister's privilege to come to a decision on that matter. In rural Ireland, when children leave the primary schools at 14 years of age, they are sadly lacking in training of any kind for the life they have to lead afterwards, and, if the two extra years were spent at a technical or vocational school, they would learn many arts and crafts which would be very useful to them in their future life at home or when they go abroad, if they are forced to emigrate to earn a living. Boys are taught many trades in these schools, and even if they are to become farmers in their own homes, they can learn to be very useful and to make many useful things for use around the house. Girls also can learn the art of housekeeping and housewifery of all kinds and, when they subsequently take up a position, they will not be the menial dependents they are at present. Under present conditions, there is no respect for them as domestic servants and they are sadly lacking in the ordinary rules of housekeeping.

If the Minister would concentrate on building more technical and vocational schools throughout rural Ireland, it would be much preferable to this higher education which Deputy Dillon spoke of here. When he talks he talks, so to speak, in the air. He is not practical and merely talks for talk's sake. He was a Minister for the past three years, and it is a wonder he did not expound these wonderful views which he now tells the Minister he should put into practice—that everybody should have free education, including university education. I should like to ask how many of our university graduates are able to make a living at home. Many of them graduate in Ireland with very high honours and very high degrees, but unfortunately have to seek employment elsewhere, whereas if boys and girls in rural Ireland had a good practical education and were enabled to find employment in the industries in their own districts, it would be much better for the nation and for these boys and girls themselves. Let those who have the ability, the money and the training go on for university education, by all means, but I do not think the people of rural Ireland want this higher education for their children. They would much prefer to see them practical men and women making comfortable livelihoods, and not aspiring to an upbringing to which they are not accustomed. That is only my own opinion.

With regard to the cleaning of rural schools, I spoke on this subject on former occasions, and I understand that the same system of cleaning still prevails. It is a sad commentary on our civilisation that schools in rural Ireland should be cleaned by the primitive methods of 30 or 40 years ago, that is, by the children attending the schools. Children are kept in after hours to clean and dust these schools, and I do not think that is good for them, physically or mentally.

If the amount of money that is given for cleaning and heating schools were increased, and a cleaner were paid as in the case of technical schools, it would be far better than having the children doing that very unsuitable work. I understand the amount allotted for this was reduced by the previous Government. If the Minister could see his way to increase the grant again, it would be to great advantage, and I hope that the Minister will look into the matter.

I find myself very much in agreement with the views expressed by Deputy Mrs. Rice. I would like to see a practical approach to the subject of education. I am inclined to think that even in the primary schools the very basis of our education directs the children's minds from the rural areas to the industrialised areas—mainly, I should think, for the Civil Service. I hope a new policy will be devised for the rural areas. Education in a primary school in the cities should be very different from that made available to children in the rural areas. The children of farm workers and farmers are being educated at present in a manner which enables them to go forward in competetion with the children of cities and towns for administrative work such as the Civil Service. I would prefer to see a bias there which would equip them to face life in the localities of their origin. First of all, not very much attention is given to the rudiments of housekeeping in the case of girls. Certainly, from the time they reach 11 or 12, they could get more education in general housekeeping and household management. In the rural areas the boys should get a certain amount of technical instruction in the management of land and agriculture. If that bias were introduced in the rural areas, it would bring about a frame of mind there which would encourage the children to seek a livelihood on the land instead of going forward into the towns.

Dublin City is increasing steadily in population, at the rate of 7,000 persons per year. That is what has happened during the last 20 years—7,000 every year—and next year there will be another 7,000 on the register of Dublin City. These 7,000 are coming from the rural areas mainly—because our economy and our education are not biassed in favour of a rural life. I hope the Minister will approach this problem in a new way. His Department has certainly been very active during the last couple of years under the inter-Party Government. I hope he will continue to maintain that policy in many respects and that he will depart from it in cases where he considers it desirable to do so. In the rural primary schools, the children of farmers and farm workers could be educated in a way that would show them that agriculture is not just "a way of life". People say that farming or agriculture is a way of life, but if we continue to adopt that frame of mind towards it, we will never get them to approach the question of food production in a businesslike way, to the advantage of the consumer and of the nation. If farming is not tackled in a businesslike way, starting with education in the primary schools, we cannot hope to maintain and improve the good standard of living in this country. We must equip the children in rural areas with sufficient knowledge to enable them to go into food production in such a way that they can compete with the world market as a result of their efforts.

I would like to bring to the Minister's attention the school building programme at present on hands. I hope he will pursue it even more vigorously. In County Dublin, which is only on the fringe of our capital city, many primitive schools can be found. Children there are being housed in primitive conditions, insanitary conditions, conditions which certainly are detrimental to their health. I am not going to mention any particular schools. I am sure a survey has been carried out and the Minister can see for himself what schools are not suitable and those to which children should not be sent in the interests of their health. I hope that a remedy will be found and that State money will be made available for the erection of proper schools or the improvement of existing ones.

One more point I wish to mention is in regard to the pensioned teachers. Those who retired before a certain date were not eligible for pensions under the same conditions as others. Of course, a certain date had to be mentioned in order to facilitate administration. However, since that certain date was mentioned, a number of pensioned teachers find that a certain hardship was imposed on them. I would like the Minister to examine the financial consequences of a decision to pay those who have been disqualified as a result of the date decided on. It may not be a very large sum and, if it is not, it is only right that those who have given long years of their lives to the education of the children of the nation should be properly rewarded.

I am glad that the Roe Report has been finally implemented. Of course, the teachers are disappointed—we heard a Fianna Fáil Deputy say here to-night that they are disappointed that they did not get something more than they have got, as the cost of living has been altered considerably in the last six or eight months. No one will deny that. The cost of living appears to be on the increase and it is only right to expect that the amount now to be made available to the teachers should be scaled up in order to bring their conditions into line with the cost of living of the present time.

Having regard to the curtailment of time allotted to the Estimate, I propose to address very few points to the Minister. Deputy Rooney says he hopes the Minister will pursue the educational policy as vigorously as the Minister who has just left office. I can assure the House that he will not have to apply a lot of energy to pursue the vocational education aspect of it. For the past three years, I have been protesting here, as a member of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee, against the hold-up in the building operations in the city. After three years, it is only in the last few months that the first of a series of schools which were planned more than five years ago has started, the one school at Clogher Road, Crumlin. I appeal to the Minister not to look at the city vocational education affairs through provincial glasses, as the previous Minister did and perhaps the Ministers who preceded him.

Vocational education in the City of Dublin is a separate problem. It is different. It may be akin to Cork and, perhaps, Limerick, but Dublin is a separate problem—completely separate. The Minister should remember that Dublin and its environs has a population of more than 600,000 people, and that the type of vocational education in Dublin covers a very wide field, and is not comparable with any other part of the country except, perhaps, in a small way with other towns.

The building programme must be pushed ahead. We have a housing programme in this city that is not paralleled anywhere else. We have no schools in the built-up areas for the children who are leaving school between 14 and 16 years. Representations have been made repeatedly to the Department of Education. In the Drimnagh district, which Deputy Briscoe represents, and in which 5,000 children leave school annually, there is no provision whatever being made. At Clogher Road there is a very limited provision for 240 students, but there and elsewhere the problem has been left without being tackled. Until the Minister sets up a department within his own Department, to deal specifically with the question of the City of Dublin, for me and people like me who give their time week in and week out to vocational education, it will just be continued frustration.

I also appeal to the Minister to give the vocational education committee a larger measure of autonomy. It is ridiculous to think that when people, competent people, elected to those bodies and who have made a study of the problem of vocational education over a number of years make some simple decision it requires the sanction of the Department. I agree that the Department should have an overriding sanction in certain aspects. After all, if the State is contributing a considerable amount of money to the local body it is only logical to expect, and everybody will agree, that that sanction should be there. At the same time, I do not want to see a continuance of what is in existence over a great number of years, this mentality that, when something goes up from our vocational education committee there are one or two or whatever number of people there is in the Department whose job would appear to be to see what holes they can pick in and what faults they can find with this scheme. If you have people who are elected to the vocational education committee by a competent body and if there are people competent to sit on that committee then give them as large a measure of autonomy as possible and do not be wasting the State's money and the local authorities' money with this shuttlecock performance of backwards and forwards between the committee and the Department. It is frustration for the individuals and a waste of public money. I hope the Minister will get his teeth into the building problem. The plans are there and have been there. Before Mr. Derrig left office three years ago he was doing his best to have those plans gone on with.

I wish to refer to vocational teachers. We have protested repeatedly that we will not get the best people to teach, particularly the higher scientific and engineering subjects, on a salary scale of £340, a sum which has recently been raised to a maximum of £550 a year. I think that is a ridiculous figure to offer people who can go elsewhere and, as I said here and elsewhere, it is an extraordinary thing to see an advertisement for an engineering teacher appear in the newspaper under the vocational education committee and side by side in the next column of the same newspaper an advertisement for the Electricity Supply Board or other body with a starting salary in excess of the maximum salary to which a teacher may hope to attain. I think that is a ridiculous position.

I think that the vocational education teachers must be paid; otherwise we will not have the standard of teaching that we demand. People will not come into the profession and my advice to them is: "Keep out of the profession on the present rates." I think that the scale recommended recently by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee—the Minister should have a look at it as soon as possible—is a fair scale. It does not represent the demands of the Vocational Education Committee but it is a long way in advance of what is being paid to teachers at the moment. I shall not delay the Minister any longer since he must be finished by half-past eight. I will have other opportunities to deal with this matter.

I would impress upon the Minister to get on with the building programme; to see to it that a separate section is set up in the Department to deal with Dublin City and to look into the claims of the vocational teachers.

Again, I have to apologise for the fact that my knowledge of the Department is necessarily limited because I have not been long enough in it to familiarise myself with the various problems that have been raised here to-night. I know I have mentioned that our building programme is not broad enough or sufficient enough to my own knowledge in the building of primary schools. We have roughly 5,000 primary schools. Our average of new buildings is 15 a year. It would take us 100 years to replace the existing buildings and very many of these to my own knowledge are in a rather poor condition. I have no doubt that with the growth of the population in Dublin there is dire need for an expansion of schools of all classes, but I was hardly prepared for the scathing attack by Deputy McCann on the Department of Education and his belief that Dublin City has been very adversely treated. Apparently it is in a much worse condition in regard to vocational education than the rural areas with which I am familiar and where there is no vocational education.

So far as a few matters in which Dublin is so far in advance of rural areas, we have been told that there are in one school trades of fitting and turning, garage practice, metal-plate work, brass finishing, pattern making, boiler making, smith work, art iron work, oxy-acetylene and electric welding, foundry work, iron moulding, brass moulding, watch making, brick laying, carpentry and joinery, plumbing, plastering, painting and decorating, cabinet making, wood cutting, machinist work, coach building, coach painting, coach trimming, orthography, bookbinding and lithography. It would not seem to me that the Department of Education is making a very poor effort here in Dublin when one school can provide all those classes.

They were provided before the Department had anything to do with them. The corporation provided them.

There may be need for more school buildings in Dublin, but there is just as urgent a need for the building of all sorts of schools throughout the country.

Nonsense.

Part of our difficulty, to my mind always the major part, is historical. We have much leeway to make up. Deputy Rooney spoke about agriculture as a way of life. It is a good way of life, but it is not enough in these days for it to remain a way of life only. That way of life has been too good for some of the people who hold land and who have not justified themselves, and when people complain about the salaries paid to teachers I, as a countryman, must always take the view that every shilling of that salary must come out of a tankard in a creamery car. I am interested as Deputy Rooney is in better production in agriculture because I know that these salary demands can never be met except we have greater production in the country. I do think that the people who urge the payment of bigger salaries and the expenditure of more money must always remember where that money is to come from—out of the pockets of the people. The Government have no magic wand to wave whereby to get that money.

Deputy Mulcahy spoke of training colleges for women; someone else spoke of the school leaving age and another Deputy spoke of the marriage ban. The question of providing training colleges for women teachers has been on the carpet for quite some time and I think we will probably solve that problem this year. It would be very well to leave to the Commission on Education the question of deciding on the school leaving age and other problems of that nature at the moment. I am not competent to judge as I have given no thought or examination to the question of the marriage ban but I have no doubt that that decision was not arrived at without due consideration and I can see very good reasons why such a ban is imposed. There may of course be reasons why it might be set aside and I will examine that problem but I do not know if there is anything I can do about it.

I am one of those who believe in doing things for themselves and in getting people to accept responsibilities for themselves and I cannot understand Deputy Mrs. Rice's deep concern and the deep concern of the other Deputies about the grants for heating, cleaning and maintenance of schools. There should be some local responsibility. There is a very big grant, almost I suppose 90 per cent. grant, for the building of schools. Surely if the people of the country had some concern or regard for education they would in their local parishes make some attempt to provide a fund for the cleaning, heating and maintenance of their schools. Muintir na Tíre get up and collect funds; Macra na Feirme get up and collect funds; even Fine Gael in my parish can get a little money.

Fianna Fáil too I would say.

I cannot see for a moment why there could not be local committees concerned for the children, for education and for the state of the schools, who could without trouble get the little money sufficient to provide for cleaning, lighting, heating and sanitation. I see no trouble of any kind.

Deputy Cunningham spoke about the need for drastic changes. That is probably true. I could suggest very drastic changes here in the Dáil, but it is not so wise, I think, as only fools rush in where angels fear to tread. An unlettered, inexperienced man like me should not be allowed to set aside the years of experience which guide the officials of the Department of Education in their work to-day. The best a Minister can do is to bring what experience he has, what knowledge he has, and what energy he has, to bear on every problem that comes up before him, and where he decides after examination that a certain thing is wrong or that another thing should be done, to insist upon that change against all opposition. If it came, however, to making immediate drastic changes in methods which at some time must have proved their worth even though they may be outmoded now, changes against the weight of the experience of men who have been in the Department for years, I think that the new Minister would be most foolish to do so.

I am interested in Deputy Dillon. I confess to being deaf; I never can hear him; he has so many inflexions that at one time he is up at the roof, and at the next moment he is in the cellarage. Everything that Deputy Dillon inspects seems to develop some scent of corruption. Irish is the source of corruption at the moment, according to Deputy Dillon. Never have so much courage, so much sacrifice, so much decency and so much public spirit been associated with any problem in Ireland as with the Irish language and its revival. Deputy Dillon senses corruption in the idea that a man is asked before the Local Appointments Commission or the Civil Service Commission if he is qualified in Irish, particularly for a position in the Gaeltacht. But there is no corruption on the part of Deputy Dillon in offering a bribe to a boy at a primary school—the bribe of a scholarship to a secondary school, and there is no corruption in offering the bribe of a scholarship from a secondary school to a university, and the bribe of a scholarship from a university to a postgraduate course. Is he not offering the same incentive to a boy in a primary school as that which is being offered to medical men who desire posts in the Gaeltacht, that they must be specially qualified in Irish?

What corruption is that? I think that Deputy Dillon is ridiculous. Mind you, there is, possibly, something to be said for an expansion of scholarships along the line which Deputy Dillon mentions. Such an idea may eventually show good results. It is something that might reasonably be examined and put into operation. However, I do not agree with this idea of equal opportunities for all, the pursuit of happiness, and so forth. You cannot give equal opportunities to everybody. It is impossible to give to me the opportunities available to a man of Deputy Dunne's stature. You might give me opportunities along a certain line that would be valuable to me and that would be of no use to another man. Give me an opportunity of running a good and well-financed publichouse in Dublin City and I would go broke in 12 months.

Deputy Cowan spoke of junior assistant mistresses and two grades of salaries. I do not know anything about that but I believe that if such a position exists there must be some sound and defensible reason for it. It would be very strange to me if, by edict of the Department of Education, one man producing the same amount of work, under the same conditions, as another should be paid much less than the other man. Of course, it is a point worth mentioning and I shall look into it.

Deputy Cowan also spoke about industrial schools. I am always sorry for those children whom I see in industrial schools or orphanages. I think it is a very definite drawback that they should not be reared in their own homes. It would be with great reluctance that I should consent to parting children from their parents but there are occasions when it must be done— to be orphaned is one and some kind of delinquency is another. It is undesirable but it is unavoidable sometimes and we shall try to keep it down to the smallest proportions possible. One thing we should ensure, as Deputy Cowan says, is that cruelty in an industrial school shall not be substituted for cruelty in the home. However, we should not make swift or rash judgments in regard to that matter. Many of these children who have been confined are not normal children. They are difficult to deal with and sometimes there must be restrictions placed upon them for their own good. I dislike the idea of children being taken from their own homes and I should consent to it only as a last resort. I think we must develop as much as we can curative treatment in the homes of these children rather than develop any system of punishments and hope for good from it.

Sometimes people are affected by statements made without due consideration or knowledge. A few years ago the late Father Flanagan was over here from America. He had built up a great name for himself in America with regard to boys' homes. When he went back, he spoke to some journalists of the yellow Press and an article was published in American papers on the subject of the cruelty exercised towards boys in industrial schools in this country. There was not a shadow of truth in the charges made by these journalists. Father Flanagan had not visited the schools here or seen what went on in them. I know of one school here in Ireland—and good and all as it is I should prefer to see the children at home—and I would challenge any country in the world to produce better.

I disagree with Deputy Rooney in regard to the provision of technical training in primary schools. Technical training is a matter for technical schools. If I have any ideas at all in regard to primary education it is that the narrower the curriculum the better. I think it would be a very good thing if children in the primary schools could be taught to read intelligently. I think it would be a very good thing if there were a school library in every school, where the children could be enthused by reading. In that way I believe you would build more into their characters and make them more effective in other matters in after life than by giving them into their small hands any technical training whatsoever. Try to build their character; give them a little wisdom through reading and try to give them a desire for further reading when they leave school.

Deputy Dillon spoke about university scholarships. I know any amount of university graduates and their intellectual pabulum now, having left the university, is a shilling Buffalo Bill. I hope the primary schools in the future will produce better than that.

With regard to teachers' salaries, may I say that history has affected the standing and salary of the teachers. However, I think that we in Ireland can compare favourably in regard to the payment of teachers with any other country in the world. I want to promote all the goodwill I can between the Department of Education and the teachers. I want such content amongst the teachers that they will be concerned with teaching rather than with salaries.

The point was made a while ago that the salaries of English teachers are altogether superior to the salaries of Irish teachers. The impact of the income-tax in England as compared with here makes very little between the salaries of Irish teachers and the salaries of English teachers and, if what I heard is correct, if there is any advantage it is with the Irish teachers. The salary looks very well until you know what deductions are made from it and as between England and Ireland it is with the net salary we must concern ourselves.

I understand that some Deputy intends to raise on the adjournment the question of the use of the national flag in the schools. I appreciate the value of true patriotism but, if it is to be inculcated in the schools, it must be done through the teaching of history. Without any knowledge of teaching, I am of the impression that until you reach the more senior grades in the primary schools it is quite impossible to teach history. In the junior grades, first of all, children must be taught the tools they are to use and the equipment of which they will subsequently make use. Until children can read with appreciation the books given to them, there is very little use in trying to teach them history. It is a long and a difficult and an arduous task to get from small children an appreciation of concrete facts. Teaching children abstracts is a much more difficult task. To teach them the meaning of a national symbol and an appreciation of it they must be taught the history associated with it; they must be taught the lives of the men, the events, the sacrifices and the nobilities that go with it. Because of that, I think it would become a task and a chore rather than something which people could approach with enthusiasm if it were decided to have a daily flagraising in the primary schools. I do not believe it would be useful but anything I can do I will do, and any suggestion that may be made to me which might induce a greater love and appreciation of their country in our children will meet with my approval.

The Minister has stated in connection with the removal of the marriage ban that he will consider the matter later. If he feels he cannot come to a decision, will he then refer the matter to the Council of Education in order to bring about a final decision?

I do not know if that would be any part of their function, but I would have no objection.

Vote put and agreed to.
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