Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Dec 1951

Vol. 128 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 51—Transport and Marine Services.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Lemass)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £2,230,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1952, for certain Transport Services; for Grants for Harbours; for the Salaries and Expenses of the Marine Service (Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1947, and the Foreshore Act, 1933 (No. 12 of 1933); for certain payments in respect of Compensation, including the cost of medical treatment (No. 19 of 1946); for expenses in connection with the issue of Medals and Certificates; and for the Coast Life Saving Service.

In order to give Deputies an explanation in simple terms of how the total of the Estimate was arrived it, I think I had better begin by quoting certain figures. It is anticipated that the operating losses of Córas Iompair Éireann in the present year, including expenditure on renewals and replacements, will amount to £1,236,560. Fixed charges, excluding the interest on transport stock which in the present year will be paid out of the Central Fund but which will be due for repayment to the Central Fund by Córas Iompair Éireann later, will amount to £224,522, these fixed charges being contributions to pension funds, £180,000, and interest payable in respect of the Fishguard and Rosslare Harbours Company, £44,522. Repayments to the Central Fund of interest on transport stock advanced by the Central Fund in July, 1950 and January 1951 will amount to £433,000. In addition, the company estimates that the cost of replacing certain materials used during the current year because of higher prices will involve an increased charge of £204,000, and they have in their minds a figure of £241,000 as the cost of certain exceptional stocks of essential materials built up in anticipation of supply difficulties. Against the total of these sums, which is £2,339 082, there is a credit of £66,372 in respect of rent and interest receivable, so that the total amount required is £2,272,710 which, for the purposes of the Estimate, has been rounded off to £2,250,000.

In August last, the board of Córas Iompair Éireann requested financial assistance. It then estimated that the deficit for the year ending March 31st, 1952, without taking into account interest on transport stock, would amount to £1,400,000, and it stated that the sum of £600,000 was urgently required to enable the board to meet its current needs. As there was no possibility of getting that amount voted by the Dáil before the Dáil reassembled for the present session, and as there was no provision in the annual Estimate for any payment to the board, the board was authorised by the Minister for Finance to borrow up to the limit of £500,000 in accordance with the provisions of Section 28 of the Transport Act, 1950. That sum was borrowed and represents the total amount which the board can procure in that way. It is consequently necessary to put them in funds at once in order to enable them to meet current outgoings. A Supplementary Estimate is necessary because there was no provision for payments to Córas Iompair Éireann in the main Estimate of the Department for the year.

The theoretical ground upon which provision for advances to Córas Iompair Éireann was deleted from the Estimate was that the board was expected so to increase its fares and charges during the year that no loss would in fact result. The board stated that they did not think that would be possible, and early in March last they estimated their requirements for the financial year to be £1,997,000 and they did not themselves propose to attempt to recover more than £1,000,000 by higher fares. They estimated then that a subsidy of £1,000,000 would be required. For reasons of which I am not fully aware, fares were not, in fact, increased until September 10th.

The board estimate that the additional fares which came into operation on September 10th will in a full year yield an additional £1,179,000. It is clear, therefore, having regard to the experience of this year, that even that increase in fares will not allow Córas Iompair Éireann to break level if their experience next year is the same as it has been this year—that is to say, if the traffic available to them remains unaltered, or if their operating costs remain the same. That increase in revenue would allow the board to break level on operating costs, but it would not provide anything over and above operating expenditure to meet fixed charges or interest upon transport stock. The board has, however, expressed to me the view that the present rates and fares are as high as the traffic will bear, and that any attempt to deal with the situation by increasing them further would not, in fact, bring in additional revenue because the loss of traffic would offset the effect of the increase.

I met the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann shortly after I resumed office and I discussed the position with the undertaking in some detail. I asked the board to furnish me with information as to the steps which they had already taken to reduce the operating costs of the various services and as to the effect of these measures, and for information about any further proposals which they had in mind to achieve economies. I asked them to give me their plans for the future reorganisation of the undertaking and, particularly, to report upon the possibility of expediting the re-equipment programme which they have prepared and which is an essential part of any reorganisation scheme. The board had previously proposed to me, as I mentioned in the Dáil at the time, that their problem should be relieved by imposing further and quite drastic restrictions upon private transport—by that I mean the transportation of goods by private lorries. I asked them to submit these proposals in detail. I have received the observations of the board in that regard but I have not had an opportunity of examining them in detail or of coming to any conclusion on them.

I think that the House will agree that the aim should be to make the public transport services provided by Córas Iompair Éireann pay their way, that is, to give them the support necessary to secure the volume of traffic that will permit of economical working, subject to practical measures being adopted to achieve efficiency and economy in operation. If, arising out of the proposals which the board has made to me, any decisions are required from the Government, and particularly, of course, if any proposals for legislation should emerge, the matter will come before the Dáil. However, I cannot say yet whether that will be the case.

Over and above the money required by Córas Iompair Éireann to meet the deficit in its revenue, the board have asked for authority to raise new capital to the amount of £2,500,000. It is estimated that of the new capital required, approximately £600,000 will be expended before the end of the financial year mainly on the purchase of diesel rail cars and on the building of additional omnibuses, lorries, wagons and carriages. The measures to be taken to provide that additional capital to the board are under consideration. There is likely to be some problem for the Minister for Finance to solve in that connection. It is recognised, however, that if it is the aim of the Government in relation to transport services to provide efficient services capable of earning revenue to an extent that will avoid calling upon subsidies from public funds then quite substantial capital expenditure upon reorganisation and re-equipment may be required.

We need this Vote now, before, the end of this year, so that the Exchequer will have authority to pay out money, as needed, to Córas Iompair Éireann. The full amount will be needed before the end of the financial year but the amount immediately required will be advanced at once. There is no other source from which Córas Iompair Éireann can get money except from the Exchequer. It has already secured bank accommodation to the full limit permitted by the Act and unless this amount is provided the company will find itself in immediate difficulties.

Mr. Morrissey

I am in agreement with the Minister when he says that the money has to be provided if the services are to be kept in operation. I am also in agreement with him though he did not, as I can understand on an occasion like this, travel very far with it, that we are not going to put the national transport undertaking on a profit-earning basis or even in a position to break even without some very drastic changes in the whole transport set-up in this country. I do not see how we can expect the national transport undertaking to operate on strictly commercial lines if we ourselves here in this House prevent them from doing so because we have compelled the national transport undertaking to provide services that no commercial undertaking would provide on a purely commercial basis. For national reasons we have insisted that the national transport undertaking, even, as a matter of fact, when it was in private hands, should maintain and operate—and even where they were not operating except on very rare occasions, maintain in a workable way —the many services in this country on which they were losing heavily.

The Minister knows and I know that if this company is to be put in a position to pay its way, if it is to be put in a position so to operate that it will not be necessary to come to this House for sums of money to keep the services going, somebody will have to have sufficient moral courage to come before this House with proposals which will put them in a position if not to operate on a profit-earning basis at least to break even.

The estimated operating loss of Córas Iompair Éireann in the period we are discussing is approximately £1,250,000. I think I would be correct in saying that increases in wages and salaries and increases in the price of coal and some other purchases which Córas Iompair Éireann as a transport undertaking had to meet in the last 12 months would account for more than the £1,250,000 in itself. I am speaking now from recollection but I think that the increases in wages and salaries alone would run somewhere between £600,000 and £750,000. Everybody knows that the increase in the price of coal in the last 12 months has been very substantial.

The Minister would perhaps be able to give us a closer figure than I can at the moment of what that means to an undertaking like Córas Iompair Éireann. I think Córas Iompair Éireann purchases and uses somewhere in the neighbourhood of 250,000 tons of coal per year. It will be realised that an increase of £1 or of a few pounds per ton would mean a very substantial additional burden on the company. Then there is the matter of renewals and replacements and repairs. I do not know what it must have cost this transport company over the past five, six or seven years to try to keep on the road, whether it be the macadam road or the iron road, stock which should have been scrapped many years ago. The cost of repairs to wagons, old lorries, carriages and so forth that have long passed the stage of economic operation is an important consideration. I do not want to go into any of that at the moment because this is not the time to do so.

It must be remembered, also, that this transport undertaking, for some reason or another, has been subject to more industrial disturbances in recent years than, I think, any other undertaking in the country. I am not going into the merits of any of the strikes or disputes but, undoubtedly, every strike, particularly if it is a major strike, means not merely immediate loss to the transport undertaking but a permanent loss.

If the services are to be dislocated from time to time, then those engaged in industry and commerce and whose goods have to be transported through the State will naturally, in order to ensure the continued operation of their own business, cease to rely upon an undertaking which is so often disturbed and dislocated and will resort to their own transport.

It must also be remembered that a considerable amount of the loss that we have to make good is due, like many other things, to the war period, when it was not possible to get replacements or renewals. Even though it may be said that renewals are not being met out of anything like this, the repairs and replacements, the efforts to keep existing rolling stock in a usable condition, add very considerably to it. However, I feel sure that the Minister agrees with me in this—I know the solution to it is not easy and that the solution, when it comes, will not be very popular—if this House wants to have a national transport undertaking operating on a commercial basis, then there must be a drastic change. The extraordinary thing is that those who clamour most about any reduction, much less the abolition, of an existing rail service are very often the people who resort to it least.

Mr. Davin

Including the directors —some of them, anyway.

Mr. Morrissey

That may be so, but the fact is that we have to maintain a rail service and that if the House would face up to its responsibilities it could be maintained and operated on a commercial basis. The transport situation is absolutely chaotic and the cost of the chaos is reflected not merely here but also in the road charges of every local authority. There are vehicles on our roads of a size and a weight for which our roads were never built or intended and for which our roads cannot be maintained, and the cost of them to the taxpaying and ratepaying community is very heavy.

I am, perhaps, opening the door a little now, but when we are criticising Córas Iompair Éireann and saying that we must provide a couple of million pounds to straighten its accounts over 12 months' operation, I often wonder whether anyone has ever tried to calculate the cost to the community of the wear and tear on our roads. I know we are met with the answer that those who use the roads pay for them and pay tax. It is not adverted to as often as it should be that the tax paid by some of the heaviest vehicles would not pay the wages of one surface man for 12 months. I do not want to deprive either the owners of commercial lorries, those who have plates, or the private lorry owners of any of their rights, but these people insist on carrying on their own lorries the goods which they can carry on a basis remunerative to themselves, while they want the railways, and even Córas Iompair Éireann road transport, available to carry for them the goods which they do not want to carry themselves or which it will not pay them to carry for themselves, or which their own vehicles are not constructed to carry. It is well known that the general practice is to foist on to Córas Iompair Éireann the goods that are least profitable from the point of view of transport.

Also, it has to be recognised that Córas Iompair Éireann has to maintain its own roads—I am talking about the iron road—and pay for that maintenance, while they also pay fairly substantial rates to the local authorities. However, perhaps I am going a bit too far into this at the moment. It will have to be tackled some day by somebody and this House will have to make up its mind as to whether it wants the service to try to continue operating under the difficulties under which it has been forced to operate in recent years, or whether it is to be given a chance to compete with other transport and to pay its way.

One of the troubles—I think the Minister will agree with me—is that we have far too much transport in this country. We have about three times as many commercial vehicles as are required to transport the country's merchandise—at least three times as many. People talk about Córas Iompair Éireann having a monopoly. Córas Iompair Éireann have no monopoly except a monopoly of the least profitable merchandise that has to be carried. People talk about Córas Iompair Éireann having a monopoly of road freight. I do not know what the position is at the moment, but my recollection is that when I was in Industry and Commerce, Córas Iompair Éireann had something in the neighbourhood of 400 or 450 commercial vehicles, out of something like 10,000 registered commercial vehicles. Then we talk about a monopoly.

I can only express the hope that the Minister—or whoever may be sitting in his chair in 12 months' time—will not have to come to this House for as large or a larger sum than we are faced with here to-day. I want to say quite frankly, from what I know and what I anticipate for the future, that unless this transport question is tackled in a realistic way, there is no use in our thinking we will not have a similar Estimate next year—whether by way of Supplementary Estimate or by way of provision in the Budget—and there is no use in thinking for one moment that we will not be faced year in and year out with a subsidy of this size. If it is necessary, as it has been considered necessary up to this, that uneconomic services should be provided in the interests of the country by the national transport undertaking, the people will have to make up their minds that they will have to pay for them. That is the position so far as I see it.

I have perhaps wandered a little from the actual Estimate, but I do not think I really have, because the matters I have touched upon are the matters which are responsible for the fact that the Minister has to come here this morning to ask for this Supplementary Estimate. I know that it is a difficult problem and a very complex problem, a matter for which a solution cannot be produced overnight, but we are perhaps in a better position now to appreciate what the difficulties are, what they are likely to be in the future and what has to be done to remedy them than we were at any time up to now.

Mr. Cogan

It is an appalling thing that this House and the taxpayers should be called upon to make such a heavy contribution to the cost of transport. It is even more disquieting to feel that this demand will be repeated again and again in the future. While, as Deputy Morrissey has said, if we want a national transport system, we must pay for it, it is necessary for us to ask ourselves whether this national transport company is as efficient as it could be. We are called upon now to vote this sum in order to meet losses, and the House and the country are entitled to know, if it can be ascertained, where exactly these losses have occurred. I am not suggesting that the losses are avoidable, but it is necessary to know in what particular branch of the transport service these losses have occurred.

The operations of Córas Iompair Éireann may be divided in two main sections—the conveyance of passengers and the conveyance of goods—and it would be desirable to know whether these losses have occurred in respect of the conveyance of passengers or goods. If they have occurred under both these headings, we might go further and ask ourselves whether the losses have occurred under the headings of rail or road transport. We might find that they have occurred under both headings, and we might then try to break down the figures still further and find, if losses have been incurred in the conveyance of passengers, whether they have arisen in the City of Dublin and the immediate area or in the rural areas. It is necessary to find out at what particular points the losses have occurred. We might also try to ascertain whether the losses have been more severe in road freight services or rail freight services, or whether they have been more severe in road passenger services as against rail passenger services. It is desirable that the House should know where the most severe losses have occurred, and having ascertained that, to decide whether anything can be done to mitigate or reduce these losses.

There has been a recommendation made to the Minister, as he has indicated, for more drastic restrictions on private transport. Everyone will agree that that is a very far-reaching demand and one which the Minister will not accede to without very careful consideration. Before any further restrictions are placed upon private enterprise in transport, a public inquiry into the whole system and operation of transport should be held. The Minister may not feel very favourable to such an idea, because so many investigations and inquiries have been carried out over a number of years and so many drastic changes and reorganisations have taken place that one does not feel anxious to open up the whole field of operations again, but we cannot close our eyes to the fact that the community generally feel that the operations of Córas Iompair Éireann are not, in all fields, efficient. Every businessman will tell you that he sees evidence of inefficiency and waste in regard to road transport. They will tell you of lorries underloaded and taking a very long time to travel from place to place, losing time in order to build up claims for overtime. All these complaints are frequently made and it is very often difficult to substantiate them, but they are so widespread that they deserve to be investigated.

Everybody knows that the operation of a fleet of road transport lorries is a very difficult matter. Any businessman with even three, four or five lorries on the road knows how hard it is to keep these lorries fully occupied and carrying loads in every direction and so to organise operations that they will pay their way and work to their fullest capacity. How much more difficult is it to organise hundreds of lorries operating all over the country, and, as Deputy Morrissey said, having to comply with statutory obligations? The Minister should undertake some kind of investigation into the matter and the people who complain about the transport system, about inefficiency, should be given an opportunity of making these complaints at a public inquiry.

Then, again, there is the question of the diversion of an undue amount of traffic to the roads and the cost to the taxpaying and ratepaying community of maintaining these roads. In addition, there is the question of overloaded or over-weighted lorries operating on road surfaces that are unfit to carry them. Coming to the city, I notice a portion of the road from Blessington to Dublin on which enormous sums have been spent over the past few years in an effort to keep the surface intact. Notwithstanding the fact that a large portion of the road was resurfaced within the past year, that road has broken up again because lorries of 15 and 20 tons weight carrying gravel and other building materials travel over it.

I think that both Córas Iompair Éireann and private lorry owners should be compelled to operate with a maximum lorry weight. There again, you come up against the question of the higher cost of lorries. You have got to decide whether it is better to save at the cost of the servicing of the road or try to save on the privately owned lorries. Whatever way the money is spent it will be a heavy expenditure. I think there is no justification for putting on a road surface transport that it is unable to carry. Possibly the road surface could be put in a position to carry it, but the road could not carry it except it was laid down with reinforced concrete.

I would ask the Minister to think very carefully before imposing further restrictions on the private lorries. Before doing so, it might be desirable to consider whether it might be possible for Córas Iompair Éireann to restrict its own operations. In other words, to transfer to private enterprise certain work which is at present being done by Córas Iompair Éireann. I have frequently expressed the view that road freight transport could be done more efficiently by private enterprise than by a national company. At the same time, private enterprise could and should be required, if carrying on a service of that kind, to pay the same rates of wages as are being paid by Córas Iompair Éireann. I think that would be accepted.

A firm operating a limited number of lorries can exercise greater supervision over them. It can, perhaps, run them more efficiently than can a large public-owned company with huge fleets to look after and a huge area to cater for. I sometimes feel it would be a good idea to sell some branches of the railways to a smaller private company in order to run them, perhaps, as subsidiary bodies to Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. Davin

Sell them?

Mr. Morrissey

Give them away. Make them a present of them.

Mr. Cogan

If the sections of the railway to be sold had and commercial value they could, at least, be leased under the supervision of Córas Iompair Éireann.

Mr. Davin

To the county council.

Mr. Cogan

I certainly would not think of leasing them to a county council. Let us imagine that there is a 40 to 50 mile stretch of railway leased. It might be possible, by using rolling stock, exercising supervision, and having regard to the needs of the particular area, to make the project pay. There is need for closer linking up and co-ordination between road transport and rail transport. Something more could be done than is being done to utilise the railways as a sort of background for the general transport system and to make the roads act as feeders to the railway.

That suggestion has been put forward again and again, but somehow or other, it does not seem to be adopted to any great extent. As a matter of fact, we see the Córas Iompair Éireann freight transport services drawing traffic from the railways instead of acting as feeders for them. We see the bus services competing to a great extent with the railways, attracting passenger traffic from them. We should have some information as to how this system is operating at the present time and how it will operate in the future with a view to cutting those losses. I should like to have the losses figures broken down so that we could see exactly in what particular sphere the losses occur. Having ascertained that, we ought to find out whether some alternative method could be devised to overcome those losses.

We all know that the basis of the whole trouble in regard to transport is the maldistribution of population. We have been talking about the congested districts, but everybody will admit that the most congested area in Ireland is the area around the mouth of the Liffey. The fact that we have such a large proportion of our population concentrated in and around the City of Dublin and such a sparse population in the rural areas makes for a difficult traffic situation. If my suggestion were adopted in regard to the breaking down of the losses figures, it would be found that there is no loss whatever in the city area either in regard to passenger service or traffic service. I would be inclined to say that in the immediate vicinity of Dublin City there is no loss either in regard to rail or road transport. It is in the more sparsely populated areas that the losses are occurring.

If my suggestion that some of the functions of Córas Iompair Éireann should be delegated to a subsidiary company operating, perhaps, in the rural areas was adopted, it might give better results. My other suggestion that Córas Iompair Éireann, subject to some regulations and reservations, should transfer its entire road transport service to private enterprise is worthy, I think, of consideration. I do not think that we ought to agree to have for all time a transport system which has got to be subsidised by the State. I could understand some branches of the service having to be subsidised. The service, as a whole, should be self-supporting.

After all, I think that is only right. If the Minister can see no prospect of avoiding losses in the future without further drastically restricting the use of private cars and lorries, before taking any step in that direction there should be a public and searching inquiry into the whole transport system. That, of course, would include not only the operation of Córas Iompair Éireann and other companies operating on the roads but the cost of construction and maintenance of the roads and canals.

Mr. Davin

This sum asked for by the Minister for Industry and Commerce looks a big one, but when Deputy Cogan looks back a little on the past he will recollect that he himself voted, on November 30th, 1949, for the provision of a much bigger sum, £4,091,000, to clear up the mess created under the operation of the Transport Act of 1944. I will not go into the history of what happened between January 1st, 1945, and the coming into operation of the nationalised concern on June 1st, 1950, but he will agree, having voted for that huge sum, £4,091,000, on November 30th, 1949, some improvement has taken place in the meantime. I am certain that Deputy Cogan has not studied the history—and I am not going to go into it now—of the collapse of the transport system of this country which took place previous to and even since 1924, when the first Amalgamation Act was introduced and passed in this House.

Previous to 1924 we had 27 public transport concerns operating all over Ireland. The smaller companies were being wiped out by the bigger ones that existed at the time, the Great Northern Railway and the Great Southern Railway, as they were then known. They had to be brought under the umbrella of the bigger concerns created by the passing of the Act of 1924. Even that Act, as the Minister knows, did not meet the situation because there was a gradual increase from year to year in the number of uncontrolled privately owned commercial lorries in the country. At that period the number was not worthy of consideration as compared with the number of privately owned lorries in the country to-day.

From what I see of the present position I am convinced that the only way you can create a paying concern in this small portion of the transport world is by establishing a unified system of controlled rail and road transport all over Ireland. The quantity of traffic available will not provide, no matter what Deputy Cogan thinks, for the continuance of the rail and associated road transport concerns, the Great Northern Railway and Córas Iompair Éireann, and a large number of privately owned commercial lorries.

I wonder whether Deputy Cogan has ever considered from the community point of view the services, if any, given by these uncontrolled privately owned lorries. Does he know what I know: that these people buy one lorry or may be more under the hire purchase system, and run them without any idea about the profits derived from them from year to year so long as they can pay the hire purchase annuity and get a few pounds for themselves from week to week? That is all they are concerned about. A privately owned lorry can travel from Dublin to Portlaoise, Portarlington, Mountrath or Mountmellick, and carry goods at a cheap rate. The owner does not know whether he will make a profit or incur a loss, but he will carry the goods more cheaply than they could be carried by Córas Iompair Éireann or the Great Northern Railway. But what does the community derive from the lower rates? They may carry tea, sugar, tobacco, flour or any essential commodity, from the mill in the case of flour, or from the port in the case of the imported article, to the door of the trader in any town you like. The lower rates certainly give a great advantage to the trader, but is that benefit passed on by way of lower charges to the community which does business with that retailer? Certainly not. We must therefore consider the benefit conferred on the community generally by the services of these privately owned lorries. I will not go into that now. It is not the occasion. We may have another opportunity of doing so.

If we are to have an economic transport system it must be a unified system for Ireland, with, naturally, associated auxiliary services feeding the railways north and south at the junctions. I am sure that the Minister has that in mind. To the extent to which the Minister completed the recent agreement with the Great Northern Railway Company and the people associated with the Six Counties Government and to the extent that his predecessor initiated these negotiations, I congratulate both of them on having made a very big contribution to the ultimate solution of the whole transport problem.

I suppose that Deputy Cogan reads the figures furnished by Departments from time to time and reads the answers to parliamentary questions. Does he realise the difference even between the beginning of 1947 and to-day in the number of lorries in this country? It has doubled. He is sane and sensible and knows that there are tens of thousands of motor lorries owned by Córas Iompair Éireann and the Great Northern Railway and the amount of traffic to be handled in this country is limited. Any sane and sensible man who has given any consideration to these matters would agree that that is the position. We have had innumerable transport commissions and inquiries and have on record their recommendations, their unanimous reports in some cases, and majority and minority reports in others.

In relation to this Estimate I want to raise a bigger problem that faces the Minister. I think it is pertinent to this Estimate. The Minister, when he was speaking at a function in the city some time ago—and he repeated it here to-day—appears to have requested Córas Iompair Éireann to balance their accounts. Córas Iompair Éireann, on the face of what we have before us to-day, is a semi-bankrupt company. The Great Northern Railway Company is in the same position and Ulster Transport Authority, another seminationalised or nationalised concern in the Six Counties, is in the same position. When the Minister puts a pressing request to the members of the board that they should balance their accounts, does not he know how that will be done in existing circumstances? The railway engines that may be taken into the shops and scrapped and the railway wagons and carriages that may not be required will not suffer. It is the human element that will suffer in this matter.

It is rumoured freely in railway circles and transport circles—and the rumour should be nipped in the bud now, if the Minister will do it, if he does not believe that it is correct—that Córas Iompair Éireann has been studying this matter at the request of the Minister. Economy commissions have been working in the various departments of Córas Iompair Éireann and it is freely rumoured in railway and transport circles that 2,500 of the existing staff are going to be paid off, with or without compensation. I am reliably informed that in the case of one department alone in Córas Iompair Éireann as many as 800 persons have been put on a waiting list to be paid off.

That should not be done and it will not be done, with my approval at any rate, until the Minister has made up his mind on the basis of the proposals that have been put before him by Córas Iompair Éireann. I think he should give an undertaking to this House that until he and his colleagues in the Government make up their mind as to what is to be done with the proposals submitted to them by Córas Iompair Éireann none of the existing staff should be dispensed with. His predecessor gave an undertaking and carried it out that from a certain date none of the staff of Córas Iompair Éireann would be paid off. I want the Minister to nip in the bud, for the moment at any rate, this rumour that has been widely circulated in regard to the paying off of as many as 2,500 members of the existing staff.

The Minister and his colleagues in the Government must make up their minds as to what is to be the future of the branch line railways. It is about time that that was done. That, as Deputy Cogan said, involves the question of the future of the roads and the condition of the roads in the areas now served by branch line railways. If the branch lines are scrapped, in many parts of the country new cement roads must be built to carry the heavy traffic that is now carried, at uneconomic rates, over our main and branch lines. Big questions are involved in all this. It is about time some Minister had the courage to take a decision.

Political considerations come into this, without doubt. As Deputy Cogan had clearly in mind, without reference even to the provision of an economic transport system, political considerations have to come into the picture when you talk about the position of the increasing number of private lorry owners. As one of the friends in this House of the private lorry owner, I would say that it would have been far better for some of them if they had never bought their lorries. They are not making money on them. They are just working for the people who manufactured the lorries and gave them out on the hire-purchase system. Many of these good citizens who bought private lorries on the hire-purchase system five or ten years ago are very sorry that they ever had anything to do with them. In any case, the Minister knows probably better than anybody else that the country cannot afford the existence of such a large number of privately and publicly owned lorries and at the same time expect to have a railway system that will pay its way from day to day and year to year.

Mr. Fanning

Does Deputy Davin know that Córas Iompair Éireann have to engage a large number of privately owned lorries at the present time?

Mr. Davin

The Deputy is quite correct in that. That happens every year during the beet season, but when the beet and the wheat have been carried to their destinations, the Deputy will be surprised to know, Córas Iompair Éireann cannot get fulltime weekly work for its own limited number of motor lorries. It is a most unfortunate fact, and the Minister will tell the Deputy that what I say is true, that Córas Iompair Éireann railway section is still competing with the road freight section. Is it not a ridiculous state of affairs? I do not want to go into this. I am pestered with these cases. In some of the cases that have been handed to me I asked the individuals to furnish me with documentary evidence.

Imagine the rail section and the road section of Córas Iompair Éireann carrying racehorses from Dublin to a race meeting in County Mayo on the same day. The same thing happened in the case of racehorses that were carried to a race meeting in County Kerry. These things have been happening this year. The man who was booking the racehorses to be carried by rail from Dublin to County Mayo did not know and did not care whether a colleague of his, paid by the same nationalised company, was making arrangements to carry racehorses by road on the same day to and from the same race meeting.

Mr. McQuillan

What about fairs? Did not the same thing happen?

Mr. Davin

I am giving the Deputy some information regarding the competition that is carried on between two sections of the same company. The Deputy is quite correct in saying that the same kind of competition goes on in regard to fairs.

Let us consider these things during the Recess. I would appeal to the Minister particularly to consider seriously the proposals that apparently he has in his possession from the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann and to give an early policy decision to the members of the board so that they will know what they are supposed to do in future. If you close the branch lines, then take a decision and take the consequences of that decision but do not keep coming to this House thinking that you can provide traffic on an economic basis for all the motor lorries owned by Córas Iompair Éireann or privately owned and at the same time maintain a railway service without providing a subsidy year after year. It cannot be done and you had better make up your minds that it cannot be done.

Courageous decisions must be taken on this matter in the near future if we are to avoid a repetition of the request which the Minister has made to this House this morning. I do not believe in the policy of putting your hand in the taxpayer's pocket to pay indefinitely a subsidy to the transport service. An economic transport service can be provided. We all know that that can only be done by an all-Ireland railway service fed by a suitable auxiliary road service at the main points. No board of any nationalised traffic concern can make up their minds definitely as to how they can reasonably comply with the Minister's request that they should pay their way unless they get policy decisions as to what is to be the future of the branch lines.

I do not want to indulge in a lengthy discussion on this matter. The Minister and his predecessor have made a big contribution to what I hope will be an early solution of the transport problem by getting the Six County Government to agree with them in regard to acquisition of the Great Northern Railway Company and I hope that the next time that there is a discussion in this House as to a possible solution of the transport problem the Minister will tell us that there has been agreement with the people in the North to have a unified transport system, road and rail. In my opinion, that is the only way you will avoid a repetition of the request that is before the House to-day.

Mr. O'Hara

The Minister has told us what I am sure every Deputy knew already, namely, that if we do not provide this colossal sum to subsidise Córas Iompair Éireann the company cannot continue. That is a very serious matter from the point of view of the taxpayers. It seems to me that there is something wrong with the management of Córas Iompair Éireann. The company has been losing money over a period of years. It was nationalised for the purpose of saving it from bankruptcy. Because it was nationalised, like everything else that is nationalised, the management feel, I am sure, that it is no serious worry of theirs whether the company pays or not.

I travel quite a lot of the roads of this country, and I have often observed Córas Iompair Éireann commercial vehicles operating in various parts, going to and fro, very often with little or no load. It is quite a common thing to see a six or eight-ton railway lorry going to remote areas with a parcel on which they collect 3/- carriage. Any sensibly minded person must know that it cannot pay the company to operate such a service. As I said, this company is now nationalised, and there seems to be no worry on the part of the management as to whether it is paying or not. The taxpayers have to meet whatever deficiency there is. In my part of the country, there is really a good road commercial service. It is true that the taxpayers have to pay for that, but in regard to that service we really have no great grievance.

It is also true that some years ago Córas Iompair Éireann took up a branch line running to Achill. Having taken up that line, they deprived the people of that Gaeltacht and very thickly populated area of any proper or satisfactory service. No Government since has seriously considered that matter or considered the people of that area. The people of Achill felt when this line was taken up that a proper road service would be provided for them. As a matter of fact, I was told by the Achill Development Association that at that time assurances were given that when the line would be taken up a proper road service would be provided. This is a thickly populated area, and is mainly a migratory area. The bus services provided for that area are inadequate. The hours at which the buses and trains run are wholly unsuitable and unsatisfactory for the people of the Achill district. When migratory labourers, boys and girls, come to Dublin from across the water they board a train or bus and they find when they get to Westport that there is no connection whatsoever for them for the remaining long distance. They are obliged to engage hackney cars, and that is wholly unjust and unfair to these migratory workers. In reply to a question which I put down some days ago, the Minister told me that that was a matter for Córas Iompair Éireann. It is a matter, however, for the people we represent, that they must subsidise Córas Iompair Éireann. I put it to the Minister that he should impress upon Córas Iompair Éireann the importance of restoring at once an adequate service for the people of this Gaeltacht and thickly populated area.

There is another aspect of this question which was referred to by Deputy Morrissey—that very heavy commercial vehicles travel on our roads in different parts of the country carrying loads up to 15 and 16 tons in many instances. The unladen weight of some of these vehicles is, perhaps, seven, eight or ten tons as well. Our roads were never constructed for carrying these vehicles, particularly in bog areas where the foundations are weak. They are daily breaking up our roads and, accordingly, making the rate-paying public pay very dearly for restoring them to a proper state of repair. If a considerable amount of this heavy traffic were sent by rail, I believe Córas Iompair Éireann would be in a healthier financial condition, and in all probability they would not be looking for this colossal sum of money, although they might be looking for some money.

The argument has been put forward by some Deputies that private hauliers should not be allowed to operate on the roads, that they do not know whether their business is paying or not. I know a number of them in my area and they have always made a success of this business. In the course of their operations they have built up big businesses. It was because they took such a personal interest in the operation of their businesses and effected economies where they felt they should be effected that they have succeeded in running their businesses on efficient lines.

If Córas Iompair Éireann adopted similar tactics in order to run their business on efficient lines transport would pay. I think it is wrong that a young man who buys a lorry should be deprived of the opportunity of making a living out of that lorry in hauling goods for his neighbour, let it be farm produce, turf or anything else. So long as he complies with the law laid down in relation to insurance and so on he should not be deprived of that opportunity. I cannot see how he could injure anybody.

If the Minister would make up his mind to tell Córas Iompair Éireann that they must cut down on the size of the company and allow private hauliers back on the roads, the burden the taxpayers would have to bear would be much less than it is to-day.

The West of Ireland is far removed from the City of Dublin, but there, too, we have a serious transport problem. The local papers, particularly the Western People, which has a big circulation throughout the country, have been harping on the problem over a long number of years. We have been very badly treated in the West from the point of view of transport. If there is any scrap bus or scrap railway car Córas Iompair Éireann invariably sends it down to the West. To look at them, one would really think they were making their last journey instead of being pressed into service in Mayo and elsewhere. It is the old story: anything is good enough for the West.

There are considerable delays in the rail services, so much so that people have almost forgotten that it is still possible to go to Dublin by train. It is painful to watch the outmoded methods the staffs have of dealing with traffic. It is no wonder the railways are not paying. It is no wonder the travelling public have turned away completely from that mode of transport.

We now have reason to believe that the eyes of the Government are turned at long last to the West and to the hardships endured by the people there. We have a serious grievance in relation to transport. We have been very badly treated. We are being called upon like every other citizen to subsidise this company. We are not begging for anything. We are looking for fair play and justice in relation to our transport as well as in relation to everything else.

Mr. Fanning

It seems to me to be very bad policy to come in here year after year and vote away such a large sum of money. No businessman worthy of the name would keep a business going if he ran it in a similar fashion to Córas Iompair Éireann. As Deputy Morrissey stated, the time will come when some Minister occupying the position the Tánaiste is in to-day will have to make a move which may be unpopular. I hope that eventually someone will have the decency and courage to do it.

We are all aware of the heavy lorries using our roads. Members of local authorities are hearing nothing but the weary cry of the ratepayers: "What are you going to do about our roads?" We cannot afford to keep our roads in order. Not only is the wear and tear on the roads as a result of these lorries —some of them double deckers—very heavy but the lorries are themselves a danger to the public. We have a railway and heavy goods should be transported over that railway. Deputy Davin does not seem to be in favour of private lorries.

Mr. Davin

To a limited extent.

Mr. Fanning

He said they were merely carrying on for the sake of getting a few pounds. I can assure the Deputy that extensive work is done by these private lorries and in many cases they are the mainstay of the owner, his wife and his family. Private lorries to-day are hauling wheet, beet and turf. They are entitled to some protection. I certainly would not like to see them put out of existence.

The cry at the moment is to curb extravagance and overspending. It is unfair to the taxpayers that we, the representatives of the people, should come in here year after year to vote millions of money for a concern that is not paying its way. I appeal to the Minister to institute some kind of inquiry into our transport system to find out what can be done.

Mr. Norton

There is one matter I want to raise in connection with this Estimate and that is the position of Córas Iompair Éireann employees. It is generally rumoured in Córas Iompair Éireann circles that the board has made up its mind, or is being pressed to make up its mind, to discharge between 2,000 and 3,000 men from the service of Córas Iompair Éireann. Córas Iompair Éireann employees are gravely perturbed at this information, the accuracy of which nobody will deny, because they see before them the prospect of being thrown on the scrap heap after having given a lifetime of service to the transport system of the country.

Last year, when the inter-Party Government decided, in the public interest, to take over Córas Iompair Éireann and operate it as a national concern, that announcement was accompanied by a declaration that so far as the Government was concerned it would deal with the problem of redundancy on the basis of allowing workers to retain their employment, and the redundancy would be dealt with through the medium of deaths, retirements and wastages of every kind. In other words, the declaration of public ownership of Córas Iompair Éireann was accompanied by a guarantee to the staff of Córas Iompair Éireann that they would not be thrown on the industrial scrap heap. They, therefore, had every reason to believe that if, as a result of reorganisation or nationalisation, Córas Iompair Éireann found itself with a redundant staff, some effort would be made to provide work for the staff in Córas Iompair Éireann, and that the redundancy would be allowed to work itself out by means of the normal wastages in a big undertaking such as Córas Iompair Éireann.

Now, however, the whole atmosphere appears to have changed. If you talk to railway men, whether at Inchicore, the Kingsbridge or at any station along the line, they will tell you of the grave fears which they have that a number of these workers, who are alleged to be redundant, are to be paid off. Some of them may get compensation and others may get no compensation at all, but, even in the case of those who get compensation, that compensation, at best, will represent but a very small fraction of the income which they receive from their present employment. In my view, it can be grossly unfair and even inhuman, to throw men of 50 or 55 years of age out of a class of employment, with which they are familiar, on a small weekly pittance, and expect them to be able to rehabilitate themselves in other employment in a country where there are at present 61,000 unemployed persons.

Quite frankly, I would sooner see the State face up to underwriting the annual losses on Córas Iompair Éireann due to the retention of persons who were temporarily redundant, than see the State swing in the other direction, in the harsh direction, of throwing men out of employment on a pittance which is incapable of sustaining themselves and their families. It is all right here in this House, if we do not get down to the facts of the situation, to imagine that we can terminate the employment of people and give them as compensation a small fraction of their normal earnings. When one examines that home, one finds that you can be capable of doing a gross injustice to ordinary working people whose ordinary pay would be insufficient to sustain them each week. A fraction of that pay will impose on them very grave hardships indeed.

I do not think that the State is entitled, either in the interests of progress or in the interests of organised transport, so to arrange its transport policy as to cause the grievous hardships which would be inflicted on railway workers if they are thrown on the scrapheap with a miserable pittance as their compensation. I would urge on the Minister in this matter to take the House into his confidence and to let the House know what is to be the policy of the board in respect of employees who are stated to be redundant. Are they going to be thrown out of the railway service and, if they are, what compensation is going to be offered to them? I do not think that the offer of compensation is adequate. I think the problem should be dealt with by retaining those people in employment and by endeavouring to adjust the staffing requirements of Córas Iompair Éireann by means of not filling vacancies, or not recruiting new staffs, thereby allowing whatever redundancy that may exist to fill in the blanks caused by ordinary requirement.

Already, there is some evidence that Córas Iompair Éireann have started on a policy of reorganisation. At the Kildare railway station there is a locomotive shed which has been in operation for, I think, more than 50 years. A number of railway workers who have been employed in that shed for many years have now been told that the shed is to be closed, and that the workers will probably be transferred to Dublin. Think of what that means. There are eight or ten families involved. It means that these workers will have to give up the houses which they have locally and take themselves and their families to Dublin. One has only to know Dublin to realise how utterly impossible it is for any married man with a wife and children to secure housing accommodation in Dublin. The Dublin Corporation would not offer accommodation to persons who have so recently arrived in the city. The unfortunate railway worker, who would thus be uprooted from Kildare, would have to try and get into a single room or into a double room, if he was lucky.

One has only to be familiar with the housing problem in the city to realise that to get that there would, firstly, be the normal difficulty of getting any accommodation where there is a family with children, but even if the accommodation could be secured, the rent of it would be completely outside the ability of the railway worker to pay. What is the alternative proposed? The alternative is to leave the family in Kildare and for the man to work and live in Dublin. But what railway worker to-day could afford to keep a family in the country, paying rent and sustenance for them there, and keep himself in digs in Dublin, and all this on the rate of wages paid to ordinary railway workers? It just cannot be done, except one is prepared to inflict unbearable hardships on the workers concerned.

Now, it is quite true that there may be a need for a reorganisation of the services of Córas Iompair Éireann. It may be that there is a need for better methods and improved organisation, but we cannot allow these things, urgent though they be, to cloud our responsibility of ensuring that, so far as railway workers are concerned, we are not going to cause for them the grave hardships which will be involved if they are uprooted from one place and transferred to another, or if they are thrown on the scrap heap and given a miserable pittance as a means of sustenance.

I plead to-day for the adoption of a line of policy which will keep these men in employment, even if the State has to continue to underwrite Córas Iompair Éireann losses, because I do not think that either the position of the railways or our financial position is such as to justify us in imposing on railway employees, who have given a lifetime of service to the transport undertakings of this country, the intolerable hardships which would be caused to them and their families by throwing them on the scrap heap with only a miserable pittance between them and the workhouse.

Mr. Burke

I just want to say that it is very difficult for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to know what line to take. One statement has been made in favour of private lorry owners. Some said that the expenses were too high and that the taxpayer was paying too much. We would all like to see the company running well. I would like the Minister, in his reply, to give the House information as to how our railway system compares with the railway systems of other countries. As far as I know, though my information may not be very accurate, there are very few countries in which the railways are paying to-day.

There has been a shocking lot of hypocrisy in this debate. I heard Deputy O'Hara condemning the railway system. Then he said that he wanted to keep the private lorry owner going. He should remember that he cannot have it both ways. The Transport Act of 1944 went a long way towards saving the railways. Deputy O'Hara has made an attack upon the management of Córas Iompair Éireann. This is a very wrong attitude to adopt, and I do not agree with it at all. Nobody should be attacked in this House, when it is known that he is not in a position to defend himself.

I had the pleasure, or perhaps the displeasure, of making representations about the preservation of branch lines. I found, in a number of cases, that the people who came on the deputation were businessmen who never used the railways. Not so long ago, I went on one such deputation to Córas Iompair Éireann. There were seven men with me and they did not even use the railway; they came in their own cars and still they wanted a particular branch line to be kept going. The Tánaiste can tell the House that he has long experience of people coming up on these deputations who are hypocrites, because they have private lorries. Still they come along and say: "Do not cut off this branch line because it is our life line." Perhaps nine or ten of these very people who come on the deputation to the Minister or to Córas Iompair Éireann have not been using the branch line for ten years previously. I wonder will Deputy O'Hara tell us if the people who are criticising the railway travel from Mayo in any one of the bad carriages, or whether they travel all the time by road. We cannot have it both ways. The private hauliers cannot be allowed to carry on ad lib if the railways are to be preserved.

I support Deputy Norton in his views about railway employees. A number of them live in my own constituency. I look on the Tánaiste as a Minister who supports the workers on all occasions. I know that a number of people are afraid that something may happen because there are rumours to the effect that the railways may have to be organised. If the Minister were to take a cue from the House this morning, he would sack half the people on the railways and make a lot of other changes as well so that the railways could be kept going. However, the people who have given service to the railway over 20, 30 or 40 years deserve consideration from the State. If the people who are criticising the State for subsidising the railways were to ask the public to discard their cars and lorries as far as is humanly possible to do so and, instead, to travel by rail it would be very desirable. It would be a good thing also if they were to tell those coming on a deputation pleading against the closing of a branch line to make sure that they are using that branch line.

Mr. Corry

When facing this bill we have got to have regard to the fact that a considerable amount of the taxpayers' money was paid out in the first instance by Córas Iompair Éireann to encourage private lorries throughout the country. I am one who is definitely opposed to any further interference with private lorries, because I know the real state of affairs. I know that none of those so-called organised haulage manæuvres which are going on can in any way take the place of the work which the private lorry does. The private lorry-owner goes, for instance, to three or four districts in my own county for the purpose of taking 20 pigs to the market or to the bacon factories. He has to collect two or three pigs from one farmer and two or three from another and so on all along the road. Where does the Córas Iompair Éireann lorry fit into this picture? They would not do it.

We are aware of the attitude that has been adopted by the Department of Industry and Commerce, where, if you want to get a number plate changed from one owner to another, you might as well fly up to heaven. Indeed, you would have a better chance of hopping on a boat than you would of getting that plate changed.

I heard Deputy Norton here to-day bemoaning the fact that these workers were going to be thrown out of employment. Deputy Norton, while in the inter-Party Government for three and a quarter years, played a part in driving these workers out of employment by taking away their employment from them.

Mr. Norton

That is a falsehood, of course.

Mr. Corry

It is something I will prove to the Deputy's satisfaction. Deputy Norton is one of those who supported the dumping into this country of foreign sugar and who supported the curtailment of the growing of beet here.

Mr. Norton

It is coming in more than ever now. So far as it is clear that I can follow on the same line when we are in committee, I will be satisfied.

Mr. Corry

Every opportunity of following along any blooming line you like will be given to you so long as any of the electric trains do not catch up with you.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

Mr. Corry

My statement here is that the attitude of a Government which carried on here for three years killing the beet industry in this country and cutting down acreage was very largely responsible——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The beet industry does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Corry

I will prove that it does. Their attitude was very largely responsible for the expenditure necessary on this Vote. If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will bear with me for a few minutes I will give him the reason why. The transport of 1,300,000 tons of beet, coal, coke, limestone and sugar beet pulp would be required if we had our full acreage of beet in this country. The total tonnage of goods carried by Córas Iompair Éireann in 1948 was 2,209,000 tons, and 1,300,000 tons of that was the responsibility of the four sugar companies. That leaves you with 900,000 tons. If Deputies opposite succeeded in their object in giving employment to the Formosan and the Cuban, I think it is clearly enough related to the present Estimate.

I am not so worried about this Estimate because the first step in wiping out the need for this subsidy was taken last Friday when provision was being made for the enlargement of the four beet factories and for the transfer of this dead weight to useful production in the line of the haulage of beet.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot discuss the whole beet policy in relation to this Estimate on transport.

Mr. Corry

I am discussing the elimination of the need for coming into this House and looking for £1,817,000. The need for that should disappear. What I am quoting is the statement made by the general manager of the Irish Sugar Company on this particular problem of the subsidy that has to be paid to Córas Iompair Éireann due to the reduction in the acreage of beet and the reduction of the work in the sugar factories.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has said that a few times.

Mr. Corry

Let us examine that a little further, and see how that will affect all this unemployment that Deputy Norton is talking about. There are only two ways in which we can get rid of that subsidy and get rid of the danger of unemployment, by providing sufficient work for the railways to keep them going and to wipe out that subsidy. I say that the provision of 200,000 extra tons of beet will get rid of a lot of that problem, and that is the only manner in which you can deal with it. Here, you have in one industry alone three-fourths of the freightage that Córas Iompair Éireann are carrying now.

I would like now, Sir, to deal with other matters that I consider are problems as regards Córas Iompair Éireann and as regards the building up of these subsidies and the necessity for subsidies. We are placed in a position in this country where you have either too much or too little in one area. At one time you had only about two trains running up from Cork in a day. At present trains travelling from Cork to Dublin are tripping one another and carrying nothing. You have trains at 8 o'clock, 10 o'clock, 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock. tripping one another up along that line. Anybody who travels by that line can easily see that there are only one or two passengers in every carriage. Surely there is no justification for that. I could quite understand the necessity for three trains a day from Cork to Dublin. but I see no necessity for six.

Mr. Burke

What about all the single tickets up?

Mr. Corry

Most of the single tickets are taken downwards. If you go into any industry in Cork they nearly knock you down with Dublin accents if they are not Scotch. My first complaint is that this thing is overdone. Apart from my own experience, I have heard comments from others on that line.

Then you have the extraordinary position still prevailing in which you have buses leaving Cork City for outside areas and running side by side with the trains, always taking very good care that whoever prepares the time-tables prepares the one time-table for both and has the bus and the train leaving Cork together for Youghal at the one moment. Surely there is something wrong about that. I have spoken in this House before in connection with ridiculous things that I have seen on that line. If we intend to keep the railways going then, in Heaven's name, let us keep them going and let us not have the railways endeavouring to break out into road transport as well. The whole position is ridiculous, particularly in regard to road transport. It is the ordinary farmer who is paying the piper in some of the instances I have given you.

I have seen down in my own constituency this season some 20 or 30 lorries employed by Córas Iompair Éireann for the haulage of beet to the railway stations. Now some of those lorries come from North Cork and from Kerry. A Kerry man who is working in the Shanagarry area in East Cork told me that Córas Iompair Éireann pay him so much but Córas Iompair Éireann get so much more. In plain language, that unfortunate individual is only working in order that his profits may be divided with Córas Iompair Éireann and used. If he is paid 5/- per ton for hauling beet to the railway station, Córas Iompair Éireann comes along and collects 6/6 per ton for that haulage. These are facts that nobody can deny.

A system apparently crept into this country a number of years ago under which you have one fellow sitting back looking at another fellow working for him while he draws the loot. I can see no justification for a system under which a private haulier is compelled to pay Córas Iompair Éireann for permistion to haul beet from a particular area to the railway station. That is what is happening. I have investigated that matter fairly closely and I find the facts are as I am giving them here. There is no justification for it, not even the lightening of the subsidy.

If it is against the law for that Kerryman to come up to East Cork to haul beet to the railway station in one way, it should be against the law for him to haul it in another way. These are the facts in regard to what is happening all over the country. You have a duplication of services. On the one side Córas Iompair Éireann have to maintain the permanent way on the railway line, but it is the unfortunate ratepayer who has to maintain the road alongside it.

Faced with a problem of that description, I say that what you want in Córas Iompair Éireann is efficient organisation. If you can find another Costello or another Fitzpatrick and put him in charge of Córas Iompair Éireann, then you will make a good job of it. That is the one way to do it and get rid of duplication of services. You have a definite and scandalous duplication of services particularly along routes where the railway runs side by side with the road. You have a train leaving Cork at 6.15 for Youghal, and side by side with that a bus leaves Cork at 6.15 for Youghal— both travelling side by side on the one route for 30 miles. I might be blamed by my constituents for trying to deprive them of an extra service, but at the same time I am not a believer in duplication. I think it should end. If you have a train and a bus running along the same route at the same time, you have to pay the piper for it in subsidies here. These are the things I should like the Minister to attempt to straighten out.

Mr. Keyes

I think that everybody in the House is in agreement as to the necessity for keeping the railway services as efficient as possible and, with that end in view, of providing them with the necessary funds to keep them going. Listening to Deputy Corry, one wonders on what side of the fence he stands or whether he supports this Vote at all. He opened his remarks with the statement that Deputy Norton had been responsible during the three years while the inter-Party Government was in office for a considerable amount of unemployment amongst railwaymen.

Deputy Corry must be aware that that statement is not in accordance with the facts. I think everybody in this House, irrespective of Party should have due regard to the seriousness of the position of the railways and should be prepared to contribute their best efforts to secure the eventual success of the undertaking. The inter-Party Government showed their in terest in the matter by taking steps for the nationalisation of the railways and by seeing that there would be no redundancy or unemployment amongst railwaymen except such as was caused by deaths and retirement. Prior to the inter-Party Government coming into office Deputy Corry must be aware that a scheme was in contemplation to sack 2,500 railwaymen plus 1,000 shopmen. That did not take place during their period of office. It is difficult to understand why Deputy Corry on an Estimate of this kind should introduce a contentious argument of that kind which is not in accordance with the facts. It is the desire of everybody that our railway undertaking should be put on a successful basis.

Mr. Corry

Tell us who was responsible for the reduction in the tonnage of beet.

Mr. Keyes

I challenge Deputy Corry's right to speak with authority as to how the railways should be run. He may be a successful farmer and I believe he is a very competent authority on matters with which he is conversant, but I challenge his right to dictate to the railway authorities as to how the system should be run. If they find it necessary to popularise their services against competition—and Deputy Corry suggests that they have been running unnecessary trains and running them side by side simultaneously with buses—these are matters I suggest that are best left to the competence of the people appointed to take charge of the undertaking.

If they are running buses side by side with the trains, they must have some reason for doing so. I believe they have sound reasons for doing so. Some of the buses which seem to run parallel with railways serve districts which the railways never touch. We must have regard to the geographical lay-out of the country and we know that in many cases these buses serve villages and towns along the route that are not touched by the railways at all. If you withdraw these bus services you are going to withdraw services that the people have enjoyed for a considerable number of years and you will cause them considerable inconvenience. The company must have regard to that fact.

In my opinion bus and train services should be staggered so as not to have them running at the same time. It is not desirable that buses and trains should run along a parallel route at the same time. I think it would serve the best interest of citizens if the services were staggered so as to have them running at different times. I think it is generally the rule to have staggered services where trains and buses are running along parallel routes. I would suggest that Deputy Corry is not strictly serious, that you must have either a rail service or a lorry service, but that you cannot have both. I think it is necessary to have both.

We must also have regard to the fact that, when the railways were originally constructed, they were not built for the convenience of the people as a whole. They were built by the people who controlled this country at the time with an eye to the necessities of war and defence. They were built away from the centres of population in many instances but, nevertheless, they constitute a very valuable investment.

We cannot permit the scrapping of the railways which are as essential to us as an army and navy. They must be maintained for heavy traffic and to meet the necessities of any emergency which may arise. If they happen to be running in places that are awkward or inaccessible for the bulk of the population, the best solution to my mind is to link the bus and lorry services with the railway lines. I believe that with a proper co-ordination of these services there is a useful role to be filled by both the lorry and the railway. There are places where that co-ordination of services has not taken place to the extent that it should, but it must be remembered that some years ago we found in operation a rather unchartered lorry system of which nobody was in control. I think that with a proper co-ordination of the services, you would save long hauls and you would be working a system under which you would know exactly where the end of the road was going to be. That would result in a saving to the community at large. I do not think you can contemplate a system under which the railways would be wiped out. It must also be remembered that we have a meagre population in this country. I am wholeheartedly with Deputy Corry in saying that we want to build up industries which will make stuff available for the railways but we must have regard to the present limitations of our population, an agricultural and industrial population, and not eliminate any route or scrap any part of the transport system, but give it all the assistance and cooperation possible until a better day will come.

I trust that with the other steps which will be taken by the Government in connection with the development of the western counties—and with the development, I hope, of the underdeveloped areas as well as the undeveloped areas—there will be more haulage and traffic for the transport system. In the meantime, we want to keep that system in as prime a condition as possible. Should there be redundancy, I trust that the appeal which has been made from both sides of the House will be borne in mind. We should not forget the services which the railwaymen have rendered to this country. They have spent all their lives at that type of work and it is practically a trade and an industry in itself. The great majority of these men would not now be fit to be changed to other industries, and for that reason I fervently hope that, in any reorganisation that may take place, the human element will be considered and that these men will not be transferred from pillar to post.

I know that they do not mind being shifted around because railwaymen have, in their day, been shifted to different parts of the country. They cannot escape some of that in the future just as in the past but we must not forget that they are human beings and that they must be given the consideration which is due to human beings. I hope the company will have regard to the convenience of the men who have loyally obeyed its dictates in the past and who are prepared in the future to work harmoniously for the success of the undertaking.

I believe that there should be more co-ordination between the lorry service working in conjunction with the nationalised system which we ought to preserve. That is the approach which will yield the maximum results, with the least dislocation, from both the rail and lorry service.

Mr. Lemass

With regard to the figures for the losses incurred during the present year I should, perhaps, explain that the higher cost of wages and materials during the present year was no more than offset by the increase in charges which came into operation in September last. The board of Córas Iompair Éireann anticipates that the revenue which these higher charges will yield in a full year will be equivalent, and no more than equivalent, to the cost in a full year of the higher wages and salaries which came into operation this year and the increased cost of stores, materials and fuel. The losses which the company suffered during the year 1950, which amounted approximately to £1,000,000, remained untouched by the increased charges and will continue throughout next year if circumstances remain otherwise unaltered. In fact, the board's estimate, presented to the Department of Industry and Commerce in March of this year, that their losses would amount to £1,900,000, that they proposed to increase charges and fares to recover £900,000 and that they would require a subsidy of £1,000,000, proved completely accurate. There is the difference between the sum of £1,000,000 and the sum of £1,250,000, which I mentioned when introducing the Estimate. That is attributable to the fact that the board provided in its books for depreciation in the present financial year amounting to £1,165,000 but actually propose to expend on replacements and renewals some £235,000 more than that in an effort to overtake certain arrears. Perhaps it is right to mention that the board are experiencing considerable difficulty in developing their repairs and renewals programme because of scarcity of materials at present and that they cannot do as much work in that direction as they would wish on that account.

We have the position in which the transport services operated by Córas Iompair Éireann are producing substantial losses, and that it is not possible to offset these losses by any further increases in charges, because the board have given us their view that further increases will not, in fact, expand revenue, and we have to consider what can be done. I do not think any of us would wish to contemplate the prospect of these transport services continuing to lose money.

Most of us will agree that the £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 which have to be provided for this purpose every year could be put to far more useful purposes if a method could be secured. by reorganisation or otherwise, to bring the cost of providing these transport services into line with the revenue which they yield.

I am in complete agreement with the view expressed by Deputy Morrissey that the most important factor which has resulted in a loss of traffic to Córas Iompair Éireann, and to the development among industrialists and traders of the present tendency to organise their own transport service, has been the recurrence of trade disputes leading to stoppages of work on the public services. No more than he, I do not want to go into the merits of these disputes. The very fact that they happen and the sense of insecurity which the possibility of a sudden interruption of public services creates in the minds of business executives, whose own businesses may be ruined by any prolonged interruption of deliveries of their goods, induces them to undertake what very frequently they do not want to undertake, namely, the capital investment and the organisational problems associated in the creation of their own transport services.

Nobody expects that disputes between trade unions and railway managements about rates of pay or conditions of service will cease. So long as human nature remains as it is, these disputes will recur again and again. However, it should not be beyond the competence of the leaders of the trade unions and the management of the company to devise methods of resolving these disputes which will obviate stoppages of work. I am certain that if that cannot be done, that if continuing stoppages of work on the transport services are to be anticipated in consequence of disagreement about conditions of employment, all the efforts we are making to preserve the railways will prove fruitless, and that ultimately they will have to disappear.

Mr. Dillon

Does it not occur to the Minister that we ourselves are promoting such disputes by failing to determine that our preparedness to provide subsidy for the transport company shall be subject to some overall limit—that we should determine that, say, £1,000,000 is the roof so far as the Oireachtas is concerned and that the company had better arrange their affairs within that limit? After all, the trade unions naturally feel bound to fight in order to get out of the Oireachtas as much as they can for their members.

Mr. Lemass

I do not think we can fix any limit with the hope that we can stick to it, but we can make it clear to the management of the company and to everybody else concerned that there is not a bottomless purse out of which they can draw. That is not a matter solely for decision by any Government. In my view, it is a matter which will be taken out of the hands of Government by public opinion unless the situation is improved.

Deputy Cogan asked for a segregation of the losses between the different types of services. It is estimated that in the financial year to 31st March next the rail services will lose £1,436,000— there will be that deficit between their operating expenditure and the revenue realised. The road services will bring in a credit of £460,000, the hotels a small credit of £5,530 and the canals will lose approximately £31,000. Deputy Cogan suggested that we should have a public inquiry into the management of Córas Iompair Éireann and also into the wider aspects of transport policy. He, however, anticipated my answer to that suggestion: we have had so many inquiries into transport in the last 20 years that it would be useless to hope that another would give us any clearer picture of the position or any clue to a solution of its problems. I will agree with him in this, that if the proposal of the Córas Iompair Éireann Board to impose drastic restrictions upon the operation of private lorries were to be adopted and made the subject of legislation, the public and the Dáil would be entitled to get, in justification of the proposal, a great deal more information than is available at the moment.

Mr. Dillon

And a public opportunity for other interests to put their case.

Mr. Lemass

The means by which that information would be procured would be a matter for consideration then. Let me turn now to the main questions raised in the debate. Deputy Norton and Deputy Davin referred to the reports that are in circulation, that requests have been made to the Córas Iompair Éireann Board to balance their accounts and if necessary to reduce considerably the number of workers employed on the railways in order to secure that result. In the course of my speech introducing this Estimate, I stated that the board of Córas Iompair Éireann were asked to furnish me with information as to the steps already taken to reduce working costs, the effect of these measures, any further proposals they may have for economies, and their plans for reorganisation. I do not know if it is true that the board has, as Deputy Davin said, an economies commission working. I hope they have; I regard that as a normal function of management. They have certainly given me no indication of any intention to effect substantial dismissals of employees. In fact, in the report which they gave me, they rather suggested that their inquiries to date had not revealed any substantial redundancy.

Mr. Dillon

They were forbidden to consider it.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Davin went on to say that no economy investigation should be begun and no Córas Iompair Éireann workers laid off for reasons of redundancy, until the Government had decided on the board's proposals for a reduction in the number of, or the elimination of, private transport lorries. I think that is putting the cart before the horse. I gathered from the speech of Deputy Davin and a somewhat similar speech by Deputy Norton that there is in the minds of the Labour Party an idea that a transport worker employed by Córas Iompair Éireann has got under statute or on some other ground a right to continue in employment which a transport worker employed in the operation of a private lorry has not. If the Government decided to adopt the proposal of the Córas Iompair Éireann Board, a proposal which would put out of employment some thousands of transport workers now engaged in the operation of private lorries, I am quite certain that both the Dáil and public opinion would demand evidence that that was not being done for the purpose of keeping in employment in Córas Iompair Éireann workers who were redundant there or that it was not being done for any others reasons but the belief that, as a result, a more efficient transport organisation would be created.

Deputy Norton referred to decisions made by the Córas Iompair Éireann Board affecting the engine-running shops at Newbridge and certain other changes of that kind. I do not propose to interfere with the Córas Iompair Éireann Board in the discharge of its management function. I have under the law no power to do so, but even if I had the power I would certainly hesitate to exercise it. Any executive administering an organisation of that kind must have the right to make the changes which they think will promote greater efficiency. That applies particularly in this case, where greater efficiency may mean a reduced call upon public funds for subsidy purposes.

Deputy Davin, a Deputy from Mayo and other Deputies have criticised the management of Córas Iompair Éireann. Those criticisms put me in a rather difficult position. When my predecessor announced here the names of the present Córas Iompair Eireann Board, I made some critical, even derisive, comments upon his choice; but I have not changed the board. I have, in fact, no adverse observations to make upon any member of the board as an individual. Whether as a team they have got all the qualifications necessary for the management of the organisation and for the solution of its problems is another matter. I feel that it is unfair that the members of the board should be subjected to criticism here without somebody saying something on their behalf. They cannot speak here for themselves and, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, I have at least the obligation of putting forward on their behalf the defence which they themselves made to me in reply to similar criticisms.

Mr. Dillon

This bugle sounds with a very uncertain note.

Mr. Briscoe

The trombone talks.

Mr. Lemass

They have a difficult problem to solve. I do not pretend to be an expert in transport management and very few Deputies here would make that claim seriously. I do not know if it is good transport business to run omnibus or lorry services in areas already served by rail services. I can conceive circumstances in which that might be a desirable practice.

I am quite certain, however, that Córas Iompair Éireann are not doing that for any reason except the belief that it will enable them to give a better public service and discharge their responsibilities in that regard in the most efficient way.

Mr. Dillon

If you lived four miles from a railway station you would agree with that.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Davin said that, big and all as this bill is, it is much less than the bill presented in 1949. In 1949, the Dáil was asked to vote a sum of £4,091,000 for Córas Iompair Eireann. I know that Deputy Davin fought the last election campaign on the basis of the speech which he delivered here on this very subject and I would hate to destroy that speech on him because, at his age, he would find it difficult to get a new one.

The fact of the matter is that the Estimate submitted in 1949 was of an entirely different character. Of the £4,091,000 voted then, no less than £2,264,000 was for capital works then in progress or about to be undertaken by the Board of Córas Iompair Eireann. In fact, it met the capital needs of the board right up to July, 1950, when the present board took over. Of the balance of £1,600,000, £771,000 was paid back to the Exchequer in discharge of obligation arising out of the payment of debenture interest. The balance of £857,000 was provided, not merely to meet losses incurred up to that date, but losses anticipated in the period to the end of the financial year.

Deputy Davin asked about the future of the branch lines. There are two classes of branch lines, those on which the services have already ceased and those upon which the services are continuing. When I met the Córas Iompair Éireann Board after my reappointment, I told them that so far as the branch lines on which services have ceased are concerned, I wanted no more humbug. I said that if they have any intention of restoring the services on these lines they should go ahead and do so. If they did not intend to restore the services, I told them to put in train the necessary measures to enable them to abandon the lines. There might be some political advantage to me in leaving in existence the branch lines over which no services are run and on which Córas Iompair Éireann never intend to run services just to hold out in the localities concerned the vague hope that at some time they may be restored. Personally, I think there is nothing doing the prestige of Córas Iompair Éireann so much harm as the existence in so many parts of the country of these old lines, with rusted rails overgrown with weeds running through derelict railway stations. At the present time the financial cost of abandoning the lines on which Córas Iompair Éireann never intend to run a service again can be more easily offset by the sale of the resulting scrap than might normally be the case. In any event, that addition to our supply of scrap iron would be very welcome at present. I have, therefore, set up the Transport Board contemplated in the Act of 1950 and I understand that Córas Iompair Eireann intend to make application to that board for the necessary orders to abandon certain of these lines upon which they do not ever intend again to run a rail service.

Mr. Sweetman

Did the Minister say that he had set up the tribunal?

Mr. Lemass

A decision to set it up has been taken and I have submitted to the Government proposals as to the personnel, but the Government have not yet had an opportunity of considering my proposals. It will be a representative board. It will be composed of people entitled to be regarded as the spokesmen of a number of interests that might be concerned.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps the Minister will pause now to give the Fianna Fáil Party a chance to set up a cheer.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Keyes, I think, must have been referring to some Labour Party propaganda rather than any data that came to him as a member of the former Government when he referred to an intention in 1948 to dispense with a number of railway employees, including shopmen. I think the intention then was quite the contrary. It was to expand activities in the railway shops as rapidly as the improving supply of materials permitted and to undertake considerable expenditure upon the extension of the shops. That expenditure was dropped as an economy measure during the period of the Coalition Government. Might I remind Deputy Keyes that one of the extensions in contemplation was the construction of new shops at Limerick for the production of all-steel wagons.

Mr. Keyes

Two thousand railwaymen, plus shopmen, were to be sacked.

Mr. Lemass

There was no proposal to sack anyone. I do not think we will get anywhere arguing on that line. It is true that the Córas Iompair Éireann Board came to the Government then in office and said: "We have got either to increase fares, get a subsidy or dispense with staff." That is precisely the position to-day. The present board say: "We will have either to increase fares, get a subsidy or reduce staff." They have increased fares, they have got the subsidy and they say that up to the present they have been unable to find any substantial scope for the reduction of staff on grounds of redundancy.

Mr. Dillon

Have they not overlooked the necessity to cease recruiting staff?

Mr. Lemass

They have ceased recruiting staff. There is no staff being recruited. There is a wastage which they calculated as being about 2½ per cent. per year. That is the only change in the number of people employed in the service now taking place.

Mr. Dillon

When did they cease to recruit?

Mr. Lemass

Three years ago. Deputy Davin referred to the Great Northern Railway position. I do not think it is desirable that I should make any reference to that until there is some proposal regarding it before the House. Deputies will appreciate that any statement that would be made in that connection would have to be, not merely comprehensive in the sense that it would give the complete picture of the position, but also so framed as not to occasion any difficulties. I would not like to make any such statement in a debate on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister announced yesterday that as a result of a business reorganisation of the Civil Service undertaken by a firm of business consultants in conjunction with officers of the Civil Service an economy amounting to £72,000 per annum had been effected and that that method was proceeding. Will the Minister consider, with the Board of Córas Iompair Éireann, the desirability of bringing in a similar body to that brought into the Civil Service for the purpose of advising that board? Secondly, the Minister said that recruitment for the Córas Iompair Éireann staff had stopped. I submit that it has not stopped.

Mr. Lemass

That is for the railway.

Mr. Dillon

If it did stop and the trade unions helped by transferring fellows from one branch of occupation to another, I think a 2½ per cent. economy in the total at present employed would be a valuable contribution.

Mr. Lemass

Recruitment has ceased and the chairman of the board is at present in America looking for suitable experts to advise them on their problems.

Mr. Dillon

More power to his elbow. He never went on a better trip.

Question put and agreed to.

Votes 50, 23, 71 and 51 reported and agreed to.