Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Mar 1952

Vol. 130 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Tourist Traffic Bill, 1951—Committee.

Sections 1 to 3 agreed to.

SECTION 4.

Mr. Hickey

I move amendment No. 1:—

To add to the section a new sub-section as follows:—

(2) Within three months after the passing of this Act the Minister shall appoint a representative of labour to the board, and he shall hold office on the terms and conditions prescribed by the Minister.

I would like to point to the fact that the Tourist Board is of great importance. While we may not be able to prove that certain interests are represented on the board, it is quite obvious that the tourist people and the hoteliers have, if you like, an indirect representation on it. While the Bill was under discussion here on the Second Stage the Minister said he did not agree there should be a representative from a certain organisation on the board. I am not asking that that be done in any strict sense. However, I do say this. We are dealing with such a question of vital importance where there is such a large content of labour and the need for good relations between hoteliers and the trade union organisations, that I feel it would be desirable if we had a representative of labour on the board. I feel it is not necessary for me to elaborate on that fact. We are satisfied that it is advisable to have representatives on boards of many semi-State organisations. What are the qualifications of some of the people on these boards? I am at a loss to know why these people were selected and what they represent. We have them in the sugar company and in Bord na Móna.

There is a large labour content, as I have already said, in the tourist industry who are putting their skill, their energy, and their collective ability at the disposal of the trade. They should, therefore, have somebody representing them on the board. The tourist industry is one where there are many conflicting interests involved. I feel that the labour representative might be taken from the Congress of Irish Unions rather than from the particular organisation to which the Minister objected in his statement when this matter came before the House. I would suggest, for more reasons than one, that the Minister should agree to appoint a representative of labour on the Tourist Board. There is need for a better understanding between the people who are on those boards and those who are engaged in the ordinary day to day occupations in the whole industry. It is very desirable to have a representative of labour on those boards. It is not necessary for me to elaborate on that. I hope the Minister will reconsider the matter and appoint a representative from labour. He need not appoint a representative from the particular organisation to which he objected here but he can make a selection from the congress to which those men are affiliated.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

I should like to support this amendment. I know that the Minister is definitely not unsympathetic because, in response to a recent request from the parliamentary Labour Party, he did indicate his sympathy with the idea that there might be a representative of labour on semi-State boards. He did, of course, indicate—and I think the members of our Party would fully subscribe to his view—that it would not be desirable to have workers, who would be actually working in an industry, as representatives on the board which controls that particular industry.

I think that this is an admirable opportunity to have labour representation on a semi-State board. I indicated in my speech on the Second Reading that, as far as the tourist industry is concerned, anybody who could represent the views of the workers from the point of view of promoting the tourist industry would be a very desirable asset. Anybody who would represent the views and opinions of hall porters, waiters, waitresses, the various people who make up the staffs of the hotels, and anybody who represents the views of the railway porters and those people who are on the staffs of Córas Iompair Éireann, would be able to make a good contribution so far as the improvement of tourist facilities in this country are concerned.

We have workers representing us on the board of Córas Iompair Éireann at the present time, and possibly on one or two boards for which the State is in some measure responsible. I think the Minister ought to seriously consider this suggestion.

Mr. Byrne

I strongly support the suggestion put forward by Deputies Hickey and Corish. Now especially I think something ought to be done quickly because if there was a representative with labour tendencies, not necessarily a representative associated with the business, he might be able to prevent a repetition of what has been going on in Dublin for the past six months.

Mr. Lemass

Is not that the whole case against it?

Mr. Byrne

I am taking the lead from the two Deputies who spoke. They very properly did not touch on the matter, nor do I wish to do so in detail, but if there was a man or woman with labour tendencies on the board who could put forward the views of the workers it would ensure that a decent living wage was paid to the people and thus avoid what is happening in Dublin to-day, where so many of the hotels are idle.

Captain Cowan

I see what is behind the amendment but, honestly, I do not think it is the type of amendment that ought to be put forward by the Labour Party. They take the line of having one representative from labour on this board. My view would be that the board should be entirely composed of people with labour ideals. This sop business of just looking for one seat is all my eye. What we want to get is the most efficient people. That is what we want.

My experience is that some of the most efficient people in this country are people who are considered to be members of what is described, in a broad, general way, as labour. One has got to consider where one is to draw the line. A young boy goes in, say, to the hotel service. By efficiency, he rises to the top to control a hotel or hotels. When does he cease to be labour? At what stage? Is not that a point that must be considered?

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

It is a nice little twist.

Captain Cowan

It is not a twist at all. In other words, you are labour until you arrive at a certain stage, but when, by your ability, you go beyond that you are labour no longer.

Mr. Hickey

That is the Deputy's own interpretation.

Captain Cowan

I think it is absolutely wrong for the Labour Party in this House to look for sops—one seat here and one seat somewhere else.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The Deputy is not getting revolution from Fianna Fáil.

Captain Cowan

I do not care from whom I get revolution. At least I teach it. I want to see labour having control over everything in this country, but I do not want the sops. I do not want to put in a fellow just to represent labour.

Now let us be honest. We did that in regard to a couple of other boards. Of what benefit has it been? Has it prevented strikes? It has not. Has it improved the conditions of the workers? It has not. Let the Labour Party fight as it should fight on principle for control and not for these sops.

Mr. Lemass

I can see many cases where it is desirable to have upon these State boards people with a labour background who can give advice and suggestions from their experience, but I am objecting now—and will always object—to putting on a person who is described in the terms of this amendment as a representative of labour just as I would object to putting on these boards a person who would be described as a representative of hotel owners or any other class of interest.

We are setting up here an executive board, not a conference. A conference of representatives may be desirable or necessary for particular purposes, but for the purpose contemplated here you need an executive authority. The persons comprising that authority should be chosen because of their individual ability and suitability for membership rather than because of their representative capacity.

May I say this also, arising out of Deputy Byrne's remarks, I do not think that Bord Fáilte should have any function whatever in the matter of employment conditions in hotels or in relation to the negotiations of agreements between hotel proprietors and trade unions?

Personally, I think there is very great need to set up some industrial council or other body that would introduce into the industry peace and harmony and ensure the existence of a practicable method of avoiding disputes.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister should do it now.

Mr. Lemass

But that is not under consideration now, and it certainly should not be a function of Bord Fáilte.

Deputy Byrne says: "Do it now." If there is any request to me from the Labour Party or from any responsible representatives of labour for the Government to come up and do these things, I will do them.

I have said before and I will say it again that you cannot have the Government and other people doing it as well. If the Government comes in to regulate labour conditions and wages in any occupation it will do it alone and not as a number of people trying to do the same thing. I do not think that will be of benefit to anyone. I do not think it will be a desirable development and I will not encourage it. Here, we are dealing with a board which will have no function of any kind in that field and which should not be allowed to intervene. I will agree that when one comes to consider the personnel of a board of that kind—and the advice and knowledge and experience that persons can bring to aid its counsels —one has to have regard to a variety of factors in an endeavour to ensure a properly balanced board that will be able to review questions from every angle. I urge that the selection of that board be left to whoever has responsibility for it and that those comprising it should not be described, or asked to regard themselves, as representatives of anything but of their own opinions.

Mr. Hickey

But are you not responsible for the selection of the board?

Mr. Lemass

The Minister for Industry and Commerce is responsible.

Mr. Hickey

You give us to understand that whoever is responsible——

Mr. Lemass

As Deputy Corish has said, I have had representations from the Labour Party and from both Trade Union Congresses in this regard. I replied, as Deputy Corish indicated, that while I would never agree to the appointment on these boards of a person who was a representative in any sense of the workers employed by them, there are many cases where, in my view, persons with trade union experience and a labour background would be suitable for membership, and that the selection of such persons, on occasion, would be a wise course. I think it has to be left on that basis.

Mr. Hickey

That is what I am suggesting.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Would the Minister consider one such person when he is appointing the board?

Mr. Lemass

I am dealing with the board which has been appointed.

Mr. Desmond

In supporting this amendment I would ask the Minister not to drift away from it as Deputy Cowan has done. There is no suggestion whatever in this amendment of appointing a man on behalf of labour in the sense that some people are trying to imply. The Minister will be appointing people who will be representatives of hoteliers. It will be because of their experience that the Minister will appoint them. All that Deputy Hickey asks is that when consideration is being given to the selection of the personnel of this board a person shall be made available from the working staffs, and that such a person, with the experience of a large number of years behind him——

Mr. Lemass

The amendment talks of a "representative."

Mr. Desmond

A representative of labour and of the workers. It is not customary to class them as professional people. They are classified as workers and ordinary labour. Surely the voice of a worker representing these people could be considered in this connection? Certainly, his experience and advice would be as valuable as that of anybody else on the board, whether representatives of hoteliers or of transport. A person who, in his or her everyday life as a worker has experience of the hotel business or of transport, and so forth, would be of vital importance to the Tourist Board. That is what this amendment asks for. It is no use to say that it can be left to the Minister to consider that matter. I believe that if consideration, and nothing but consideration, is given to the labour and staff side of the workers—if consideration only, and no representation is given—this board will not be a success.

Mr. Lemass

This board will have nothing to do with labour in hotels.

Mr. Desmond

In the broad sense of administration, they will have to.

Mr. Sheldon

The question I was going to ask has really been answered by the Minister when he said that it will not be a function of the board to enter into the administration of hotels. I was going to ask which particular function of the board—from Section 4 to Section 14—would require a labour representative. I do not see that any sectional representative is needed at all.

Mr. Hickey

I am not representing any sectional interest. All that I am asking is that a man who, as the Minister says, has a certain labour outlook and administrative capacity, shall be appointed a representative to the board. I claim that there are such men in the labour movement. I wonder how the representatives of the Sugar Company, the Shipping Board, Bord na Móna and other concerns were selected and what were their qualifications? I suggest that a most suitable place for a labour representative would be on the Shipping Board, as I now suggest for the Tourist Board also. The Minister could appoint men on that Shipping Board who would be more suitable than some of the people who, I am quite satisfied, were selected more because of their big bank balances than anything else. I am looking forward to the appointment to the Tourist Board of a man with a wide knowledge of tourism and of its administration in this country. I am quite satisfied that there are men in the labour movement who would be able to give valuable assistance on this board—more valuable assistance than that which might be afforded by some people drawn from certain interests which are very closely associated with the hoteliers in this country.

Captain Cowan

Who ran the industry and made a success of it?

Mr. Kyne

Will it not be a function of the board to inspect, register and grade hotels, guest-houses, holiday camps, holiday hostels and youth hostels? Surely, in the carrying out of such work, there is some executive job which must be done either by an officer acting under the board or by the board themselves if they so wish? Surely a person who has actual experience of hotel work and who would be a representative of the people employed in those hotels would have some influence and a direct bearing on the matter? A number of us on these benches pointed out that in the grading of hotels a lot of points are taken into consideration—with the single exception, apparently, of the housing conditions of the employees, the wages which they are paid and the hours which they work. Surely Deputy Sheldon cannot be right when he says that the board has no function in relation to the administration of hotels?

Mr. Allen

Taking the entire membership of this House and bearing in mind the fact that there are representatives of labour in this House who do not belong to the Labour Party, I should like Deputy Hickey to state——

Mr. Davin

All the Deputies.

Captain Cowan

Deputy Allen would have to define his terms.

Mr. Allen

——whether it is political labour he wants represented on this board or trade union labour.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Trade union.

Mr. Allen

Is it the political Labour Party?

Deputies

No.

Mr. Allen

That was not clear. I am sure that Deputy Belton or Deputy Byrne or many of the Deputies on this side of the House could be described as representing labour to a certain extent.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Yourself.

Mr. Allen

Even myself. We were put here by people whom Deputy Corish would describe as labour people in this country—much to his dissatisfaction, I suppose, or otherwise. One need not necessarily be a member of the political Labour Party to be a representative of labour.

Mr. Hickey

I did not say so.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

This is news.

Mr. Allen

I want to be clear on this. What would be the view of the Labour Party of Deputy Alfred Byrne, if he were put on the Tourist Board? He would not represent labour. Is that not right?

Mr. Hickey

Or Deputy Allen.

Mr. Kyne

He would not represent hotel labour.

Mr. Allen

You do not say that it should be someone who would work in an hotel. Listening to the debate, I can only conclude that what is at the back of the minds of Labour Deputies is that they want to select a representative of political Labour.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy pressing the amendment?

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

May I point out to Deputy Sheldon——

Mr. Sheldon

I merely asked a question.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

The Deputy made an assertion, that in the recital of the functions of the board from Section 4 to Section 14, he did not see any function for the Labour movement or the trade union movement. It seems to me that the one qualification which one would need to be appointed to any of the public boards in this country is that one should not be in receipt of a weekly salary or wage. Here, however, in Section 5, which sets out the functions of the board, I find one paragraph dealing with a function in which a representative of the trade union movement could be of great assistance. Sub-paragraph (e) states: "to provide and assist, financially and otherwise, in the provision of schemes for the training of persons for work in relation to tourist traffic".

Does Deputy Allen and the Minister not see that a person in the trade union movement who had been used to negotiating with employers and dealing with employees, such as in Córas Iompair Éireann, could make some useful contribution in the formulation of schemes to do the things provided in sub-section (e)?

Mr. Lemass

There is a board there now on which there are five members. If a vacancy arose one would have to have regard to all the circumstances, including the special qualifications of the remaining members. Mr. Christenberry's report says that the Minister must have regard to the following fields of endeavour: Hotels, restaurants, catering, transportation in all its phases, public relations, publicity, advertising, the promotion of banking and financing—pace Deputy Hickey— architectural construction, merchandising, cultural and professional, etc. Undoubtedly anybody making a selection of a person to fill a vacancy on the board would have to have regard to all the fields of endeavour as well as the labour field, and would try to select a person likely to add to the competence of the board by reason of the special qualifications he had. I am not saying that a person with all the qualifications required could not be found from amongst those with experience of the trade union movement. What I am objecting to is putting in a condition in the Bill that the Minister must have regard only to his representative capacity as a spokesman of labour. That is what the amendment seeks.

Breanndán Mac Fheórais

Organised labour is a very big section of the community and any person selected from the trade union movement would necessarily represent the interests of a very large section.

Mr. Hickey

I want to tell the Minister and Deputies generally—and I do not want to indulge in any exaggeration—that it is more difficult to administer a trade union organisation efficiently than even to carry on the Government of the country.

Mr. Lemass

You do not have to tell me that. I know it.

Mr. Hickey

I say that because the trade union movement is based on voluntary co-operation. We do not have guns, police or an army of any kind to enforce discipline or to carry on administration in the trade union movement. I feel that there should be no narrow interpretation of the term "workers" in this connection. A man who works in an office and devotes his services to administration is as valuable to me as the man who goes out with a shovel on the roadside. I claim that when you are appointing representatives on this board, one of the first to be selected should be a representative of the workers who has shown his ability in administration in the trade union movement and who can be relied upon to deal with the problems which will confront him on the board. Taking a long survey of the people who have been selected and appointed to public boards or to semi-State boards, I want to say that I consider it a great injustice that people were appointed to these boards who had big bank balances or a stake in vested interests rather than any qualifications of a representative character. I know men engaged in certain vocations or men engaged in industry who are much more capable of acting as directors of such boards than many of the people who have been selected on these boards. I would, therefore, urge that the Minister should appoint men with administrative capacity on these boards.

Mr. Lemass

I do not want to dispute anything the Deputy has said, but the Deputy wants to insert as a statutory obligation in the Bill that one person on the board shall be a representative of Labour. Obviously, we must go further than that. We must put persons on the board who are equally representative of other interests. Is it not far better to leave to somebody in the position of a Minister the responsibility of selecting seven persons to represent these interests than to tie his hands in advance by an amendment of this kind?

Mr. Hickey

You are excluding the human element. You must have persons with administrative qualifications on the board.

Captain Cowan

The point I gathered from the Bill is that the Minister, whoever will be Minister, will appoint the members of the board. Obviously, the duty of the Minister should be to appoint persons who are best qualified. I do not say that that always happens and that the best men are appointed as members of the board. I know that within what I might term the working people of this country, which I think is a little wider in its connotation than the word "labour" which was used here, you have the efficiency of the country. What I want is a board composed of these efficient people who are representative of the workers, not the drones or the big guns whom Deputy Hickey looks for. What we want is to get people of that type to control and run these State boards. I think it is a shocking admission of failure to be looking for one seat on the board——

Mr. Sweetman

If practical experience were the words used——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I shall put the amendment.

Mr. Sweetman

Why was the Deputy interrupted when he was speaking?

Captain Cowan

I had finished, and I think the Chair thought that nobody else wished to speak.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I took it that Deputy Cowan had concluded and I was putting the amendment.

Mr. Sweetman

I started to speak but then I thought that Deputy Cowan wished to continue.

Captain Cowan

Well, I shall move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

Captain Cowan

I gave notice to-day to the Chair that I intended to raise a matter on the Adjournment to-night. Because of the importance of that matter, I want to tell the Chair that the Ceann Comhairle has informed me that I am not entitled to raise it on the Adjournment and the only reason I am not raising it now is because the Ceann Comhairle has ruled that I cannot do so. I shall, however, take the earliest opportunity of raising it, which I think will be within the next two weeks.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 27th March, 1952.