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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Apr 1952

Vol. 131 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 11—General (Resumed).

Mr. O'Higgins

The country now faces a peculiar and serious situation. The people are going one way, the Government is going another, and the Government, in its policy and course, has not the support of the people. It is following a line of policy which is in direct conflict not merely with the wishes of the people, but also with the promises and assurances given by members of the Government prior to its formation. There is no member of the Government, responsible or irresposible, who can explain away the fact that nine months ago, in June of last year, the Government gave a solemn undertaking and assurance that it would follow a policy aimed at the maintenance of the existing food subsidies. The cynical and callous breach of that assurance cannot be explained away. Not all the oratory, not all the antics, not all the speeches and propaganda of Government Deputies can explain away the fact that, in the month of June last year, they solemnly undertook, if they were committed with the duty and obligation of government, to follow a policy which would maintain for the people the existing subsidies. Accordingly, there is such a departure from the line of policy laid down by the Government for itself that we are entitled to say that it has not followed that policy.

Also those who helped to form the Government did so on the faith of that undertaking and because they had been elected to follow a policy aimed at the maintenance of the existing food subsidies and their increase. Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll, to whom I referred last night, in his election address went much further even than the Fianna Fáil Party, because he gave an assurance that, if elected, he would press for increase food subsidies and that he would constantly focus public attention on the question of living costs. He now has an opportunity seldom given to any Deputy, to any individual, an opportunity which has by the turn of events been extended to him now in a most magnificent manner, to focus public attention on living costs. He can do it throughout the length and breadth of the country, from Cork to Donegal, from Dublin to the West, by merely walking from his seat into the Níl Lobby and voting against the Government. If he is prehonest, if he is sincere, if he is prepared to live up to the pledges he wrote for himself—the documents he himself raped—he can vote now with the Opposition to refuse the Government the policy contained in this Budget. If he does so, he will to a certain extent at least live down his previous conduct here in voting for the taxes imposed by the Budget.

I do suggest to the Minister that in these circumstances, where there is clear evidence that the Government has failed to live up to its policy in its programme, it should voluntarily submit its new policy to the people. If the Government does not do it voluntarily, if the Government thinks that, like the ostrich, it can bury its head in the sand until the storm blows over, it is behaving extremely foolishly and futilely because, whether the Government appreciates it or not, feeling in the country is so intense now that the Government will be forced and prodded into an election in the coming months. It will come. It cannot be avoided. The situation is such that the people will demand the dissolution of this Dáil which, unfortunately, does not represent the country. If the Government have not the political courage to take the step themselves, at least I trust that very shortly the people in East Limerick will be given an opportunity of expressing their view.

The political cowardice of the inter-Party Government has the country in the way it is to-day.

Mr. O'Higgins

Windy nonsense from Deputy Burke will avail him nothing, and I suggest that Deputy Burke keep very silent. I used to hear Deputy Burke going into keens of sorrow about the unfortunate widows of County Dublin when they had to pay another farthing for margarine. He now has to grease his tongue at 10d. more for butter.

Apart altogether from the circumstances in which the Budget is introduced, apart altogether from the cynical disregard of the pledges given by all those who compose this Government, the Budget is a very poor effort. It is marked by a lack of imagination. Those who framed the Budget obviously did not take any time to consider more effective methods of budgeting. They went for the easy tax, the tax that could be easily collected. They saved in the easy direction of slashing food subsidies.

The Budget has been introduced at a time when, according to the Taoiseach and other members of the Government, the country requires greater production. The Budget will ensure less production by giving those who produce a smaller reward for their effort. The Budget has been introduced at a time when the Taoiseach told us the country is bleeding white from emigration. The Budget will ensure increased emigration by reducing the purchasing power of the worker, making his standard of living so much lower and forcing him, willy-nilly, out of the country. The Budget is introduced at a time when the country is suffering from a growing and menacing problem of unemployment. The Budget will ensure that unemployment will substantially increase.

The Budget is a deflationary Budget at a time when inflation does not exist in the country. It is the wrong cure for the problems which affect the country. When Deputy Brennan, who spoke last night, talked about the quack doctor coming along with the pills for the patient, he must obviously have been referring to the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance is applying now the wrong remedy to a national disease which he himself thinks the country suffers from and the tragedy is that if his cure is permitted to be put into practice the patient may be beyond recovery.

In these circumstances we in the Opposition oppose strenuously any effort to put the policy contained in this Budget into operation. We think it will be harmful to the country and that in the coming months it will lead to unemployment, emigration and so on, that it will lead to diminished production and, unfortunately, to considerable industrial unrest.

These are features which have been deliberately decided upon, apparently, by the Government in introducing this Budget. These are features in our economy that we must resist. No matter what happens to the Budget here when the division is taken, the country have already decided the issue and, sooner or later, when the opportunity is given to them, the people will seek the reintroduction of a policy aimed at facilitating greater production, providing better employment, ensuring the circulation of more money and easing business activity. That is the policy that was being followed not 12 months ago. That is the policy which gave this country its greatest housing drive in its history, its greatest drainage drive in its history and inspired the people with a feeling of confidence in Ireland itself. All that has been changed, unfortunately, in the last nine months and we are now reaping the harvest of the poverty of thought which marks the conduct of the present Government and its supporters.

Deputy O'Higgins' concluding remarks included two definite, deliberate misstatements. If we are to judge the rest of his contribution to this debate by that, we can assess where sincerity and consideration of facts lie. He said that under the inter-Party Government the greatest housing drive and the greatest drainage scheme were established. He forgot to mention that the greatest housing drive that was ever started arose from the legislation introduced by the Fianna Fáil Government, which had reached a peak in the production of houses in 1938 and 1939 that has not even yet been equalled, and that, with regard to drainage, it was a Fianna Fáil Drainage Act that came into operation immediately after the change of Government and, as some members on this side of the House have pointed out a dozen times, Deputy Donnellan blew the whistle.

Deputy O'Higgins concentrated on personal references to Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll. He takes the line, I take it, that a chain is as strong as its weakest link. It is true that the members of the Party on this side of the House are all bound together in agreement on policy and in support of whatever decisions the Government makes from time to time. They are bound to see that the policy to which they subscribe is ultimately achieved. An Independent in this House— Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll is one—is one of the strong links of a chain, not bound by Party pledge but bound in conscience to do what he thinks is proper and correct, as Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll and a few of the other Independents, at great risk to their political careers, have done already in the past because they, as individuals, stood for what they believed in all conscience to be in the best interests of the country as a whole and did not look at it from a purely political Party point of view.

Many quotations have been given of alleged political election addresses. Very few were brought in and read but still we can accept that the references were summings-up, according to recollections, of what had been promised in the election campaign. One would imagine that all the groups that are opposing this Budget have always carried out every single promise they made in all the previous campaigns and, in particular, on the eve of the 1948 election campaign.

Does everybody not know that, in order to establish a Coalition Government, all the Parties amended their attitude? In one case, a particular policy was put in abeyance and in other cases other reasons were given. In fact, there were much graver changes of policy— those who were going to march much more firmly into the Empire came into a Republic. That was not a breach of an election promise, of course, because it was done by the people who are now criticising us.

We are discussing the Budget for the ensuring year and what we are concerned about, and what I think Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll and the other Independents are concerned about, is to what extent the lot of the masses of our people can be made better and to what extent there can be an assurance that there will be a continual, even though slow, development towards a better standard of living, and side by side with that better provision under all heads of social welfare and social service. That, I think, would sum up the attitude of the Independents, apart from any outlook they might have on other political matters. It is on that they will judge the Budget and not on political references which emerge mainly from the feelings of those uttering them as disappointed people because they no longer enjoy the support and confidence of the people who have acted as Independents and who probably will continue to do so in accordance with their views and outlook.

I do not think it would be unreasonable to say that there has been over the past 20 years a gradual improvement in the standard of living of the vast majority of our people. I do not think that will be denied. It may be argued that we have not gone far enough quickly enough, that we have not achieved our ultimate aims and hopes with regard to the conditions in which our people live. Nobody will dispute that there could be reasonable arguments in that direction, but, comparing the conditions of our people to-day with those of 20 years ago, it must be admitted that, in a general way, from every point of view—social services, health services, protection for unemployed and for old people, wages in employment, housing conditions—there has been a very definite improvement in the standard of living of our people.

Fianna Fáil describe in a few words what it means by improving the lot of our people. It has always held, since the inception of the Party, that the essentials to which people are entitled are food, clothing and shelter and, in addition, there is the responsibility of the State so to direct affairs that it will be possible to employ as many of our people as possible in gainful employment. I remember, and it might be well for the Labour Party to throw their minds back to that period, when I came into the House first in 1927, there was a discussion between the then Labour Party and the then Cumann na nGaedheal Government on the rate of wages paid on a Government undertaking, the beginning of the Shannon scheme works, when labour was paid 24/- per week. We have gone away beyond that rate of wages since 1927.

What was the cost of living then?

I will come to the cost of living. I am trying, first, to get an appreciation of the facts as they are. A great deal has been done. We have the cost of living on the basis of figures juggled together with phrases used by people, the meaning of which many of them do not understand, and, even if they do understand the meaning of them, the consequences of these theoretical discussions are beyond their comprehension. We have heard discussion on the word "deflation" and we have heard people saying that this is a deflationary Budget specifically designed to create unemployment and to reduce the standard of living of our people.

It is designed, they say, to bring about a reduced purchasing power in our workers, so that they can buy less, eat less and have less. Those who say that know it to be utterly untrue, but it is a good thing to say because it gets a headline in some papers on the lines of the original approach to this Budget as a cruel and harsh Budget.

I have a responsibility. I represent the very same constituency as Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll and we both know that it is a constituency in which large numbers of the voters are plain working class people living in working-class conditions. We know from going amongst them and meeting them what their circumstances and what their hardships are and we know what is necessary to bring about some improvement in the conditions in which they live. The standard of living is what concerns us and not the yardsticks by which the standard of living is measured. I have not heard much reference while I have been in the House to the exact situation. I received a number of letters from my constituents immediately after the first criticism of this Budget broke into the Press. I wrote to quite a number of those who wrote to me and asked them to give me the details of the circumstances in which they lived and the extent to which this Budget was going to affect them adversely. I have here one letter which, in my opinion, shows the very worst situation. It is an authentic letter. I do not propose to mention the name, but it is available for anybody who wants it. I do not know personally the person who wrote the letter. It is a letter from a man, with a wife and seven children, all the children being under 16 years of age. No member of the family but the father is working. How does this Budget affect this family cruelly and harshly? The man is quite honest in what he writes. He points out that he consumes in his home 36 loaves of bread per week, and, on the basis of 2¼d. extra for a 2 lb. loaf, it will add to his weekly cost 6/9.

He consumes the full ration of butter, 4½d. lb., and on the basis of the extra 10d. per lb., his increased cost will be 3/9. He consumes 6¾ lb. of sugar and the extra 2½d. per lb. will mean 1/5. He consumes 1 lb. 2 oz. of tea which now will cost him 2/8 per lb. extra—I will deal with that later, but I take it for the moment that he is correct—which adds to his budget another 3/-. The total increase in his weekly cost as a result of the removal of the subsidies will be 14/11 per week. At least, he has been honest enough to say what nobody over there has said. He said that, of course, he was getting increased children's allowances of 10/-per week which means, he said, that his net increase, including the 3/-extra— assuming that he will have to pay for tea—will be 4/11 per week.

Does he smoke?

Deputy Flanagan said that he would never smoke a cigarette again and, of course, that has terribly upset the Government.

I said I would smoke an occasional cigar.

The Deputy took a public oath that he was never going to smoke again.

Is the Deputy making the case that the people are going to be better off?

I have not said anything of the kind. I have this letter here and I will give it to the Deputy who is making a study of financial matters. I will give him the facts. He can see the person—I say I do not know him—and find out from him to what extent is this a cruel and harsh Budget on the ordinary essential standard of living of the individual.

According to the figures given, that family is not purchasing even the rationed amounts of these four different items.

Tell me which one.

I reckon —the Deputy will correct me if I am wrong—that the increased cost per person would be 2/1 per head per week on the four commodities.

Where is it wrong? I will give the figures again. I see Deputies on the Opposition Benches making notes. I have examined these and checked them. They are the full amounts of the rationed commodities. The figures are there and I have checked them.

Are you arguing that the people are better off as a result?

The Deputy will have to be a little bit longer in the House before he can attempt to lead me to answer a question in the wrong direction. If the Deputy is so innocent and so young that he has concluded from what I have said—I do not think anybody else in the House has—that I have argued that they are better off he is making a mistake. I can only conclude that he has been doing that either wilfully or innocently.

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to make his speech without interruption. Deputies can draw their own conclusions when he has finished.

What I said was that this man's household is affected on the face of it, but the worst case that he can make, allowing for the fact that he may have to pay something additional per lb. for tea, is to the extent of 4/11 per week. That is his case. We do not want to harm or hurt anybody. There is another point to which I should like to draw the attention of the House. Deputy Byrne, who is in the House, will understand it perhaps better than other Deputies who are not members of the Dublin Corporation. In addition to these family allowances which he is getting from the State, his position will be further improved when we have completed and accepted some form of additional benefit for the tenants of Dublin Corporation houses. It will be something on the line of what we have already been permitted to do, and if we want to implement it, it will mean a further children's allowance for him to the extent of 10d. per child after the second child. That will be in the shape of a reduction of rent payable to the Dublin Corporation, so that this man, if we pass our present intention in the corporation, or if we improve on it, will certainly have not less than five times 10d.

Will the Cork Corporation follow suit?

I am afraid I cannot speak for the Cork Corporation. It will be for us and for Deputy ffrench-O'Carroll and those others who have been pilloried here to use their influence with the powers that be to try and bring about something to correct it, even if there is a penny per week per person additional charge. I am relating these things to the standard of living. I am not unmindful of the fact that the cost of living as regards many essentials, other than subsidised rationed goods, is beginning to fall. I am not unmindful of this that, as day follows day and week follows week and month follows month, the prices of other commodities will also be reduced, and that with the wages people have their standard of living will not be seriously affected, if at all.

We have also got to try and bring the minds of our people to a recognition of the facts. I am not one of those who are prepared to subscribe to the attitude of mind that this is a mendicant nation, that not only must the nation get help from outside for its continued existence, but that all our people are to be classed as mendicants and maintained as mendicants. I have the feeling that the vast bulk of our people are a proud independent people, and do not want to be maintained and kept as mendicants. They do not want legislation to provide for them from the cradle to the grave, and along the passage of life, as mendicants. Our people are quite aware of the position in the world to-day. There were certain essentials, of which the rationed commodities were a few, which had to be treated in a special manner. When the Taoiseach was dealing yesterday with the idea of subsiding certain foods and certain essentials, he pointed out that that had to be done at a certain time for a certain specific purpose and specific reason. We believe there is a change now, and that we can get away from that idea.

For nine months.

The subsidies were not introduced for nine months.

It was promised nine months ago that they would be retained.

I am making my speech and the Deputy can make his afterwards. I will make mine on the line of thought that is here. It is not just an empty box that people can throw things into and expect them to resound as in a hollow can.

It is not too full.

The Deputy is a good judge. The Deputy would be better advised to listen. If he did, he might learn something. What is the price of tea going to be? Nobody knows. Everybody knows that, when the tea merchants get back to the selling of tea in the ordinary commercial way, we will have a variety of teas blended in a variety of ways and at different prices. All of us who have been drinking this rationed subsidised tea know that because it was one special class of tea it was not the tea that most of our people would like to have. Anyway, the unrationed tea at the moment is reckoned to be 5/8 per lb. or something like that. From what I have heard there will be a variety of prices. There will be prices almost as low as the rationed price and certainly there will be a great number of varieties of tea at the higher price but the people will have a choice in regard to the type of tea they want. Speaking for Dublin— and, I think, Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll, when he comes to speak, will not denounce me or disagree with me —I say that the tea drinkers of Dublin are critical. They like good tea and do not mind paying a little bit more if they get the tea leaves they want. That is the luxury outside of the essentials. That is one of the luxuries of the home in Dublin and not the pint nor the whiskey over which Deputy Flanagan shed his crocodile tears.

What is the price of tea here and elsewhere? Tea may average from 4/-to 5/- per lb. in Ireland. In Belgium at the present moment tea is 13/6 a lb. In France it is from 22/- to 26/-a lb. In the Netherlands it costs from 6/6 to 8/7 a lb. In Sweden it costs from 12/- to 16/- per lb., and in Switzerland it is 12/1 a lb. Coffee is not a rationed commodity not it is subsidised. Coffee is about 5/5 per lb. here. It is 7/9 per lb. in Belgium. In France, the cost of coffee begins at 8/7 a lb. In the Netherlands it is 6/2 a lb. In Sweden it is 7/4 a lb., and in Switzerland it is 6/5 a lb.

Butter was rationed and subsidised. So far as we can see at the moment the unsubsidised price will be 3/10 per lb. In Belgium, butter is 6/- per lb. In France it is 6/3 to 8/- per lb. In the Netherlands it is 3/6 per lb. In Sweden it is 4/3 a lb. and in Switzerland it is 7/5 per lb.

Now we come to the staff of life— bread. The price I am taking here is that for the 1 lb. loaf and not that for the 2 lb. loaf. The price of the 1 lb. loaf is 4½d. or, if you like, 9d. for the 2 lb. loaf. It is 6d. per lb. in Belgium and France; 5d. per lb. in the Netherlands; 1/5 per lb. in Sweden and 5d. per lb. in Switzerland.

Finally, we come to sugar. Sugar will be 6½d. per lb. now in this country. It is 8d. per lb. in Belgium, 1/1½ per lb. in France and 10d. per lb. in the Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland. Our people know that, even with the removal of the subsidy on certain of our foodstuffs, our provision to them of these commodities is on the basis that they are getting them at a cheaper price than they can be got in most other countries. If the argument was that butter was 8/- a lb. here and only 3/10 per lb. in France we would hear a different song. If sugar was going to be 8d. per lb. here and 6½d. per lb. elsewhere we would hear a different song. Here we have these commodities at a price cheaper than the average world price and they are available, now that there is no subsidy attached to them, in any quantity the person may want them. Yet, there is talk of a harsh, cruel and unreasonable Budget.

Yesterday the Taoiseach pointed out that calculations were made on the average without any regard whatever to the whole period under review. Illustration was given of the house which was unoccupied for a period of a year and how difficult it would be to assess what saving, if any, would arise on any particular quarter of the whole year because of the fact that it was not occupied at a certain time. The Government did say that the average cost of the impact on the public by the removal of the subsidies would approximate 1/6 per head. That is approximately the figure that my friend in my constituency figures it out to be also.

I will come to the question of the smokes.

What about the dancing?

And I will come to Deputy Oliver Flanagan's terrible, tragic loss—the pint. I would like people not to try to mislead the public because it will only react on themselves. We did not go to the electorate and promise, as was promised by some of our predecessors in office, that we were going to reduce the cost of living by 30 per cent. We did not say that. We certainly said that we were going to administer the affairs of the State in the best interest of the community as a whole, bearing in mind the security of the people and the nation.

A lot of jeering and gibing has been indulged in because there was a suggestion that an undertaking had been given not to remove food subsidies. As I said before, our people would prefer to be without rationed, subsidised foodstuffs. They are much more anxious to enjoy their full freedom with all the pride of free persons, but they want little change in their circumstances. Side by side with the removal of the subsidy comes the increased children's allowances and extra allowances for old people.

I know a great number of old age pensioners. Every member of Dublin Corporation has a lot to do with old age pensions. I have yet to meet any colleague of mine in Dublin Corporation, no matter to what Party he belongs, who would subscribe to the description of the old age pensioner given by Deputy Oliver Flanagan, which was that the old age pensioner lived for his pint. The old age pensioners will not thank Deputy Oliver Flanagan for parading them before the world for what they are not—people who live their lives with the sole ambition of being able to retire on an old age pension and drink pints of stout for the rest of their lives. That is the opinion Deputy Oliver Flanagan has of the Irish people. It is a disgusting performance and many old age pensioners have told me that they hope the old age pensioners in Leix-Offaly will bear it in mind when they get an opportunity of dealing with it.

Drink in this country is cheaper than it is in most other countries. Tobacco and cigarettes are cheaper. I do not suggest that these are essentials except in so far as drink, spirits or stout may be used for medicinal purposes. People might sometimes be asked to take a bottle of stout once a day or twice a day for the good of their health. That is all right but I am not going to suggest that all the people live for and work for is to be able to have sufficient money to drink and smoke. People have responsibilities and families do not look at it in that way. I smoke cigarettes and I am not a teetotaller.

You do not drink the pint. I have never seen you with a pint.

If the Deputy wants to be personal I can say that the Deputy did not tell the House that he drinks a bottle of stout.

I do not now. I did two years ago.

But you gave the impression to the House that you were a total abstainer.

And so I am.

I want to caution the Deputy that if he persists interrupting I shall have to deal very sternly with him.

I hope Deputy Briscoe will be in the House when I am speaking.

I have nothing to do with that.

I read with great interest the reported version of the meeting of the Irish Trade Union Congress that deals with this Budget.

I also received a copy of their considered statement and I take it every Deputy received one. I have gone through that and I cannot quite understand the approach. I tried to read it carefully to see what is behind it. In the second paragraph of their statement they say:—

"In our view the annual Budget should have a three-fold function..."

On a point of order. In view of the fact that Deputy Davin was prevented the other night from quoting from Irish Industry, is it in order for Deputy Briscoe to quote a statement from the Trade Union Congress? I do not mind his reading it, but I should like to remind the Chair that Deputy Davin was pulled up the other night and was not allowed to quote from Irish Industry.

Deputy Davin was asked not to continue reading from a personal journal, an ordinary journal, which did not purport to express the opinion of an organised body. What Deputy Briscoe proposes to quote from is, I understand, a statement by an organised body against the Budget. Deputy Davin was taking each sentence seriatim and proceeding to refuse it without indicating whether the Minister was responsible or even held these opinions.

I do not think the Minister will take any responsibility for the views expressed by the Trade Union Congress. I have made myself clear so far as Deputy Briscoe is concerned. I do not mind his quoting it. I am merely pointing out that Deputy Davin was prevented from quoting from Irish Industry.

What I prevented Deputy Davin from reading was in favour of the Budget and, therefore, it might be taken that the Minister was responsible for the statements.

I do not want to be quoting from recollection and probably misquoting.

I am not taking any objection to it.

I will not read the whole document, only an occasional extract. This is one:—

"In our view, the annual Budget should have a three-fold function. Firstly, as the housekeeping account of the State, it should make provision for revenue and income to accrue to the Exchequer so that expenditure on certain services can be met."

I do not know what is meant by "expenditure on certain services" except that non-capital services should be met out of revenue. I take it that is what is meant. I take it that that is what is being attempted in this Budget, namely, to separate what is called ordinary expenditure from capital expenditure, as ordinary expenditure should be met from income and not from borrowing:—

"Secondly, it should serve as an instrument for the redistribution of income within the community in order to bring about a greater measure of social justice."

I do not know whether we have a mandate in this House to legislate simply to redistribute incomes or possessions. I do not think the Deputy on the front bench of the main Opposition at the moment would subscribe to that—that it should be the business of the Government to try to redistribute the incomes of the people of the country and, consequently, their possessions. That is what that would mean.

It should be the policy in introducing the Budget to prevent its bearing down on one section of the community.

Does the Deputy think that we should have such a social form of government that we would be entitled to examine the incomes of everybody and all their possessions and distribute them so that there would be a more equitable distribution?

I do not. I think the Minister should have borne in mind in introducing the Budget that it will have a very bad effect by bearing down on the working section.

I do not think the working section is bearing the burden of this. I will show afterwards that the working classes are not bearing the burden of this Budget, that they are only bearing a very fractional part of it. The Opposition should face the facts. They would make a better case if they asked that less of the burden should be put on the backs of the surtax payers and the higher income-tax groups because these are the people who are getting the bulk of the burden.

They do not drink pints.

I think I must be in the wrong house. In all my association with the people of this nation and their outlook, this is the first time I have been told that the liberty of Ireland meant drinking pints. That is what it amounts to. Everybody is concerned about the pint. The next point is:—

"Thirdly, it should be framed so as to assist in maintaining full employment, promoting economic health and advancing the common good."

We believe that this Budget is just doing what is mentioned in the third item.

I cannot understand the Deputies over there taking us to task on a matter of that kind. Fianna Fáil has announced as part of its policy—I think it was the first Government Party to announce it—that it had a responsibility for the employment of our people; that when employment was not available, State assistance should be given to try to make it available and, if employment could not be found in that way, that maintenance would be essential. That was why Fianna Fáil brought in new social services which included a form of outdoor assistance which never existed before so that people would not be left on the scrap-heap to starve. Before we left office in 1948, we had created a great deal of capital works. Money was provided for other capital expenditure and when the Deputies opposite came into office they scrapped some of these items in the interest of economy.

Such as the new Houses of Parliament.

I remember quoting during the election a reference Deputy Blowick made to Fianna Fáil in which he said that if we got back into power we would sell Guinness's Brewery. That was published in the papers and I referred to it and said that it came very strangely from a member of a Government which had sold the airliners.

Who would sell Guinness's Brewery?

Fianna Fáil.

When did I make that statement?

During the election.

You might produce it, then.

It was published.

I refute that statement. Deputy Briscoe is talking through his hat when he accuses me of that.

All I can say is that I saw it in the Sunday Press which probably Deputy Blowick does not read. If the Deputy did read it he would not be so late in refuting that statement.

I ask Deputy Briscoe. through you, Sir, to give us the date of the paper. I do not believe it appeared in any paper.

I cannot produce it now.

Even the Sunday Press would not publish something that a man never said.

I make this promise to Deputy Blowick. I will get the Sunday Press and send him a complimentary copy of the particular issue and then perhaps he could take it up with the Irish Independent. It was a reference in the Irish Independent to which I referred and I promise to send the Deputy a copy of the Sunday Press which publicised what I had said.

Will the Deputy be as prompt in providing the evidence as Deputy O'Higgins was last night with the Central Bank Report?

Deputy O'Higgins only made an ass of himself last night.

The Chair notices that Deputy Briscoe is being constantly interrupted.

He is provoking a lot.

I am not provoking anybody.

If Deputy Briscoe spoke to the motion the interruptions would not be so numerous.

Deputy Briscoe on Motion No. 11.

Let us hope he will keep to it.

I will deal now with another paragraph of this particular statement. I believe that any trade union group or organisation has a perfect right to examine as critically as possible any legislation which may affect adversely the interests of the persons who make up the trade union movement. That is their duty and they are quite entitled to do it and to do it properly, but I do feel it is unfortunate that there is a certain amount of Party politics introduced by the so-called spokesmen of trade unionism who are members of this House and who, in my opinion, abuse the position of being trade union officials and members of this House. The trade union member, the ordinary worker, is concerned solely, in so far as he is a trade union member, with trade unionism. Politics is a matter for himself privately and I do not think he is very pleased when certain deliberation by reasonably decent men can be utilised or quoted to misstate a particular position.

I am not going to go into all the theory of this particular thing but then this Trade Union Congress do suggest certain alternative methods. They did admit quite frankly that the money to be found had to be found. What they found fault with was how it was being found and they made certain suggestions without examining what it meant at all.

One of the suggestions they made was that all of the money needed could have been got, without having to deal with the removal of subsidies, from a certain limited number of people—the surtax payer and the people who make excess profits in business. It seemed rather strange to me that that should have been suggested. A rough sort of calculation would have given them some figures. I have not got the exact figures here. Seventeen million pounds was the income of some 5,300 persons. That is the figure they referred to. I divided £17,000,000, which is an awful lot of money, by 5,300 people and it came to an average income of some £3,400 per individual. I know that is not the exact position; there are some who get far more and some who get a good deal less, but once a person reaches a figure in excess of £1,500 a year income he becomes a surtax payer. It is forgotten that this combined number of people who between them have an income of £17,000,000 or slightly over it, contribute already something like 50 and 60 per cent. of their income to taxation, and it is suggested that the whole lot should be taken off them to make up the difference rather than have the removal of subsidies.

It is mentioned among other things. There is no suggestion in that document that the whole £17,000,000 should be taken off them.

The Deputy still does not understand his own figures.

It is not suggested that it would make up the whole amount required.

No. The reference is to a certain group of individuals, 5,300 in number. Here it is on page 6. If the Deputy has the statement there he can follow it. I will not change as much as a comma.

I assume you can read.

I am glad that I am given credit for something:—

"In 1949-50 there were 5,300 persons liable to surtax, whose total income amounted to the colossal sum of£17,600,000. The net surtax assessed on this sum was only £1,700,000. Would grave hardship have been suffered by any of these persons if surtax rates were sharply increased?"

Answer that question. Would it be a great hardship?

I examined that question. I do not know, because I suppose the Revenue Commissioners are the only people who will ever know how it is divided, who has more than another, and the only line I could take was that suggested by the Opposition, of averaging. I averaged, and I divided 5,300 into £17,600,000, and it produced some £3,400 income to those people. I said to myself that these people have £3,400 income out of which they have to pay £1,700,000 in surtax alone. What the gentlemen over there have forgotten is that these people pay income-tax as well.

As we were so busy averaging you did not divide the £1,000,000——

Perhaps Deputy Dunne would give us a talk and we would see how much he really knew and how much was bluff. It is all right going around to the Ballyfermot extremities and telling people: "You are entitled to this and entitled to that and let the big ratepayers pay it". Work it out in figures and see what can be done.

You will make sure to keep out of Ballyfermot.

As I said before, surtax payers pay out of their incomes a very high percentage to the State. They pay something between 50 and 60 per cent. in tax already. Now all incomes over £1,500—perhaps it would be interesting to make a note——

You are being briefed well.

I am not being briefed. I am being fortified in the proof that my calculations were approximately correct and good enough to make reference to here: "In the aggregate the State takes in income-tax and surtax 53 per cent. of the excess over £1,500."

They are taking 53 per cent. already and the suggestion is that it should be sharply driven up-in other words, that they should take the lot. It people have the incentive to use whatever abilities and brains they possess to advance their position a bit more than others do and the State already benefits by that to the extent of 53 per cent. of their income when it goes over £1,500, surely to goodness if what has been suggested took place it would bring about unemployment and make people in business say: "Why should we take all the risk involved in creating industries to give employment and find at the end of the year that if there is a profit it does not belong to us?" Surely that is going to be the first thing that will happen in our society. There must be a certain amount of reason, and you must relate that reason to the facts. I represent an area in the City of Dublin, and so does Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll, where the people are not mendicants, who do not want a carrot or something for nothing, no matter how many agitators may go around offering them that.

They do not even want free beef.

When a person's income has reached £1,500 per annum or has gone above £3,000 per annum, how much does the State take? In the aggregate, the State takes in income-tax and surtax 64 per cent. of the excess over £3,000. How much more do you think it should take?

£2,000 per annum is not a bad income.

Everything is relative. A lot of people criticise both Deputy Corish and myself because we get £600 per annum for doing nothing.

Free of tax.

Yes, free of tax. I am sure Deputy Corish has met such people and I feel sure that he ignores them. You cannot argue with a person who knows nothing. It is such a person who carries on with that kind of talk. The same used to be the case when the allowance of a Deputy was £360 per annum, or £1 per day, free of income-tax. There are a great number of people who consider that it is very foolish of us to allocate our time and do all the work we do for the allowance we receive. We are well aware of that. Therefore, what is the use in adducing here arguments against the Budget and against people who are able to make something by their intelligence or by their hands. What is the sense in our coming down to the level of the "know nothing" and saying that anybody should have enough because he has £2,000? There is more needed than £2,000.

£1,000 used to be enough in the halcyon days of Fianna Fáil in 1932.

Let them invest their money abroad and get more for it.

In our form of society— the Constitution confirms and protects it—we recognise the rights of private property and of private enterprise. We cannot pretend for one moment that we will find relief for the less well-off of our people by taking from other people what belongs to them and giving temporary relief through the redistribution of the property of others. I once heard a story of a famous millionaire banker who was approached by a Socialist. The Socialist pointed out to him that the time was not too far distant when there would be no millionaires. The millionaire said: "In other words I have £1,000,000 now and I am rich. When you take over you will distribute my £1,000,000 amongst all people, and how much will we all have?"

The chances are you would have that £1,000,000 back inside a year.

You mean my million. aire friend would have it back. I will never possess £1,000,000.

You are not doing too badly.

On the question of estate duties as they are at present, the Fine Gael Deputies will find what I have to say very interesting and they will realise what they are subscribing to without knowing it. I am sure Deputy Crowe will not subscribe to this. Referring to estate duties, the document says:

"The present maximum rate of estate duties is 53 per cent. In Britain it is 50 per cent. The rates for the middle and higher ranges could well be raised considerably providing more revenue for the Exchequer."

In other words, we are going to wait for people to die, assess the value of their property, take what we can for the State and leave nothing for the children who are left behind.

You are not doing too badly in Tipperary at present.

It is suggested that more should be done and that we should get to the stage of the Socialist régime in England where a man or a firm earning money in excess of a certain amount could only retain 6d. in each £. Businesses had to be sold in order that funds would be raised to pay death duties and a number of industries that gave good employment for generations were destroyed. It is not quite as simple as that for us because we have a different form of death duties from that in England. Is it suggested that we should tax people beyond 60 and 70 per cent. of their incomes and that we should take into the State for expenditure on ordinary revenue requirements the wealth of the nation by taking from people money to a greater extent than we are doing now? Surely to goodness that is not going to help the State. Is it not going to be far better for us to face facts as they are being faced now?

A large deficit had to be met. It is better to meet it now and have it over and done with than carry it in a concealed fashion as did our predecessors who did not pay large liabilities but kept paying interest to the banks for allowing them to continue holding money. There can be too much of that carried on. There has always been a difference of opinion as to what is good housekeeping for the State and as to what is not good housekeeping. I do not know how many of my own colleagues or even members of the House will agree with me but my view is that capital expenditure is an investment of money that will be productive— money that will build a factory, equip it with machinery, give employment, money that will be reproductive to the extent that it will turn itself over and continually give employment and a profit to the people who designed the scheme and invested in it. That is what I call a capital expenditure project, whether it be carried out by private enterprise or by the State. I cannot agree that capital expenditure means giving more pints. The brewing of the beer, originally, was the result of capital expenditure. When there is talk of profiteering in industry and of the profits you can take out of industry or out of a businessman's coffers, do people ever add up what is meant by the expression "costs of production". Does anybody ever take a bit of paper and write down: "Raw materials cost so much: rent, rates and taxes cost so much; wages cost so much." Do they ever try to discover what is the wage content, from a percentage point of view, in the article that is sold and compare it with the profit content? Do they ever consider these aspects of the question—instead of abusing and thretening those who are, from a private enterprise point of view, willing to try to create industries?

Why not encourage and help these people? Why not recognise that where a wage content in the cost of an article may be anything from 12 per cent. to 20 per cent., the profit content will be only a fraction of a percentage? If £100,000 is invested in an industry and that industry can turn that £100,000 over 12 times a year, even if it makes 6 per cent. It is obvious that the net profit is only 1/2 per cent. on the cost of the article. People do not seem to appreciate these things. It brings us back again to the question of what is relative to the person who is making the case.

I want to say that the work of the Government and the Minister for Finance in preparing this Budget and introducing it is one that, as far as I am concerned, certainly has my full and unqualified support. I am prepared to face my constituents and explain it to them. I know that the people who are worthwhile will bear with us in wishing well for the nation and will not look at the matter from an individual and selfish point of view. I can go into any pub in Dublin and find a few fellows who will tell me something about the cost of the pint, but I will also find people who are patriotic in their views and who will say: "Well, if it costs a bit more it just cannot be helped."

The criticism that has been levelled at this Budget has been unwise from the point of view of those who made it. It has been unfair and unreal criticism. We are trying to bring about a situation where there can be some recognition that there is stability. There is no use in our talking about inflation and deflation, because so long as we have to import so much of our materials, and have to export a certain surplus, the world prices of commodities will reflect themselves in what we buy and what we sell. Most people should recognise that fact. When the prices of wool and cotton went sky-high the prices of our clothing began to go sky-high too.

And you began to shout.

Deputy Rooney might like to know why. I think he would be wiser to leave it alone. The prices of cotton and wool are now falling. It is quite understandable that when the prices of goods are threatening to rise most people will endeavour to acquire a supply of the particular commodities in question before the prices go out of bounds altogether for them. The same applies when the prices of goods start to fall. People say: "We will wait because the goods will become a bit cheaper." That is why, in that sense, you have a contribution to the recession in trade. People are waiting. That is why I said earlier that I am convinced that, from now on, a great number of commodities will become cheaper and more readily available to our people. I do not know when the next war scare will come.

Why not ask the Taoiseach.

However, if it does come we shall not regard it as a mythical war scare. I hope we shall take precautions to try and provide stockpiles of essential goods before they have disappeared from the market or become too dear. That is what Deputy Rooney ought to keep in the back of his mind. Stockpile all the essential raw materials you require for a reasonable period of years to the extent to which you can acquire these materials and pay for them.

Coal and oranges. Is that right?

Deputy Flanagan might do something for himself, even for the purpose of learning something, if he got into commerce or trade or some form of employment. There is nothing dishonest in any businessman's buying and selling goods. Maybe Deputy Flanagan thinks there is.

Let Deputy Flanagan get himself a job.

If the Minister or Deputy Briscoe had to work as hard as I have had to work they would know what work is. Anything I got I got it the hard way.

Order. Deputy Briscoe, without interruption.

I suppose Deputy Flanagan thinks that the people engaged in any business or manufacturing industry are getting money the easy way. Is that the mentality Deputy Flanagan wishes to announce, in addition to his belief that we are a mendicant nation, living solely for one purpose—to drink pints of stout?

And to eat butter.

I appeal to the Labour people, before they go much further, to examine the question carefully, to talk with their own people and to find out whether there is this outcry. We have been told by one section in Dublin City that this Budget is for the benefit of the farmers. We have heard suggestions that the farmers are not taxed enough and that they are getting away with this, that and the other.

Dr. Browne says that.

That is what Deputy Dr. Browne says.

What about the Trade Union Congress?

Did the Trade Union Congress not say that?

I am saying that there are opinions—whether they are justified or not. We have taken the line to deal with indirect taxation in one way and direct taxation in another way. There is a limit to what you can take in direct taxation. Even if you took the lot, it would not be enough—and that is the absolute limit. Therefore, you must have indirect taxation. The Trade Union Congress talked about indirect taxation in the form of taxes on luxuries. What are luxuries? When a suit or a coat is of a certain cloth or a certain shape, it becomes a luxury: is that how we have to regard the matter, or is it when the suit or the coat becomes of a certain value? What are the luxuries?

What about dance halls?

Would the Deputy say that dance halls are luxuries?

What about the secret service?

The secret service is not a luxury and the amount of money spent on the secret service would not go very far. What is the amount in the Estimate for the secret service? A sum of £5,000, if it is all spent. One might as well say that the provision in the contingency account for a sum of money as a bonus to the mother of triplets is a luxury. We have included in the contingency account a certain token payment as a bonus to the mother of triplets.

Having children is going to be a luxury.

That has been said. Somebody said that dance halls were a luxury and that we should continue to tax them. I do not know, but the total amount of revenue from dance halls, £100,000, was small.

£140,000 according to a reply to a question of mine.

It would be £100,000 in this financial year.

It is equivalent, I understand, to a penny spread over eight pints of stout. I have heard discussions in which it was suggested that it was unreasonable to tax dance halls, particularly in country districts where they were used principally to raise funds for local charities and where the admittance charge was nominal.

I agree that so far as dance halls in the City of Dublin are concerned, halls which are run for purely commercial purposes and run in a large way of entertainment, there should be some discussion in regard to them. Nevertheless the fact is that when the tax was first imposed. we had a great outcry against it. There is only £140,000 involved, less the cost of collection. I believe that in some parts of the country, officials have had to travel miles, sometimes to a hall on the top of a mountain, to see what kind of dance was going on, how many people were attending it and if they had paid tax. I believe that we are better off without such a tax but I would make the suggestion to the Minister that at some time, either in the immediate or distant future, he might consider a registration tax for dance halls regulated according to space. Then there could be a nominal charge for dance halls in the country and a higher charge for dance halls in the cities. That is something that could be considered.

It would be unfair.

I am not suggesting it as something that might be done now but I am asking that the Minister might consider it. I am saying that there is such a volume of opinion that there should be a tax on dance halls, and that they should be compelled to make some contribution to the needs of the nation, the Minister might consider some way in which revenue might be obtained from them. I am merely calling attention to that.

That is a fair effort to meet Deputy Dr. Browne.

I did not hear Deputy Dr. Browne.

His speech is in the morning papers.

Deputy Dunne ought to realise that in our Party everybody is free to air his opinions, to make a suggestion or to offer criticism. I am not bound to come in here to make a speech written out for me by the Taoiseach or by the Minister for Finance. It is expected of me, if I can make any suggestion which will improve some proposal before the House or if I can offer any criticism as a result of which some defects in that proposal may be removed, that I should give expression to my views and this is the place to do it. I do not know what Deputy Dr. Browne thinks about these matters. He is entitled to make his own contribution to this debate and to offer any criticisms which he feels are necessary. Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll is, no doubt, in the same position. Above all, there has been a lot of talk in this debate about the cost of living. I have pointed out what the cost of living means.

An increase of 10 per cent.

We have Deputy Rooney again with his dual purpose hens. Does Deputy Rooney not agree that the children's allowances, where there are young families, will offset the increase in the cost of living?

Not at all.

A Deputy

Nor a proportion.

Nor will the increase to the old age pensioner.

How much will the increase represent to the old age pensioner?

More than 1/6 anyhow.

A Deputy

It costs 3/- and more.

I should be glad to hear the Deputy's figures. I suppose the Deputy's old age pensioner is one who races up to the park now and again and has to pay the additional tax on motor spirit.

And who bets on the nod.

I do not know what Deputy Rooney's old age pensioner is afflicted with. If a severe burden has been imposed by this Budget, it has been imposed mainly on the backs of those who are able to meet it. Those of us who use cars know that we shall have to bear an increased burden but that does not affect the cost of living on the poor people. Every one of us who has an income assessable above the levels fixed for working people will have to pay more.

Every one of us who lives in circumstances which do not require the State to pay us subsidies on food, should be glad that we are not asking the nation—Deputy Blowick and I should be glad——

Who gave the Deputy leave to couple my name with his?

I am sure that Deputy Blowick is glad that he himself now feels that the State is not subsidising his bread, his butter, his tea or his sugar.

If you feel that way, why did you not object when bread, butter and tea were first subsidised?

I am asking Deputy Blowick does he not feel satisfied now?

Do not mind my feelings at all. I had nothing to do with it.

I made a mistake evidently in thinking that you had feelings.

Order Deputy Briscoe is in possession and should be allowed to speak without interruption.

In 1948, when increased quantities of off-the-ration foods became available only to those who could afford to pay for them at the increased price, I objected to the system of two sets of prices which meant that poor people could get their only ration of butter while those who could afford it could buy 10 lb. of butter or as much as they liked at the off-the-ration price. That is what I objected to.

They could buy it at 3/6 a lb. off the ration, but you are going to charge them 3/10.

People who could not afford to pay off-the-ration price had to be content with two ounces of tea at 2/8 a lb. but other people who could pay the off-the-ration price could get any quantity they wanted.

At what price?

At 5/- or 6/- or whatever they liked to pay.

At 30/-.

There may have been some people who were paying 30/- during the black market period but they were very small in number.

The turf workers.

Deputy Briscoe should be allowed to speak without interruption.

We should look at statistics with the clear cold eye of sense. We should try to learn what the facts are rather than try to make out that statistics mean something different from what they do mean in order to criticise. The actual rates of wages of workers must be related to the net earning of the workers. It is no use saying that so much per week is for such and such a class of work. We must try to find out are our people earning the full amount that they should earn—and more if possible —and not merely look at it as a figure irrespective of whether or not people are in fact earning that figure.

The earning capacity of our workers is continually increasing. It has increased considerably over a number of years. Let me repeat that it is the standard of living that counts and the volume of essentials that our people will have available to them. I am satisfied that before the end of the next four or five years we will have— I am speaking now for the City of Dublin in particular—enough shelter for all our people and their standard of living in association with our social welfare legislation and the social services we provide will have considerably improved. We shall have improved the standard of living for them while they are actually employed and the method of taking care of them when they are unemployed or have come to the end of their working capacity. They will have a better standard of living then than we have ever had in this country in the past 20 years, or even farther back than that.

If they have it will be in James's Street and Glasnevin. They are the only places where they will have it.

I was glad to be present to hear Deputy Briscoe because he seemed to make the position vis-à-vis this Budget a very, very pleasant one indeed. If the Budget proposals are not as severe as he protests they are not surely it was hardly necessary to speak on them for an hour and 25 minutes, to quote the Trade Union Congress, to quote his constituents and then make his own comments in an effort to prove that this Budget does not do anything which will affect the standard of living of ordinary folk.

The biggest joke since this Budget was introduced was the statement made by the Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce when he spoke here on 3rd April and said that the aim of the Government was to spread the unquestionably heavy burden over the community in such manner as to produce the least hardship and to minimise its economic consequences. Does any Fianna Fáil Deputy in his heart believe that that is true? He may have a deep sense of loyalty to the Fianna Fáil Party; he may have an even deeper sense of loyalty to the Leader of that Party, Deputy Eamon de Valera, but loyalty to a leader is no excuse for disloyalty to principles. I think that is exactly the kernel of the situation here. Every Deputy on the Government Benches will trot into the Division Lobby after Deputy Eamon de Valera, the Taoiseach in the present Government.

As you did in the inter-Party Government.

As I did in the inter-Party Government and I have no excuse to make for it.

We had something to support.

It was a new departure yesterday to have the Taoiseach standing up after Deputy Dr. Browne and, in his own words, going to great pains to reply in detail to the points that had been made by Deputy Dr. Browne. He and the Minister for Finance listened very intently while Deputy Dr. Browne spoke. They appeared to be very worried and I almost envied Deputy Dr. Browne the position he occupied yesterday. He had the Front Bench of the Fianna Fáil Party behaving like a cat on hot bricks.

A very cross cat.

There was a sigh of relief and a change in their facial expressions as soon as Deputy Dr. Browne said that he intended to vote for the proposals in this Budget. He was as usual entirely contradictory, not alone in his statements yesterday, but in his past pronouncements even if one takes into consideration his pronouncements and his attitude in relation to the mother and child scheme. I have no particular axe to grind with Deputy Dr. Browne. I have no particular criticism to offer against Deputy Dr. Browne or Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll or the other Independents, but I do say that their support for this Government is founded solely on bitterness against certain men who occupy the Front Benches in the Opposition at the present time. It is not, in my opinion, a question of policy at all.

I have no bitterness towards anyone in this House.

I may be mistaken in respect of Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll's motives; but in respect of Deputy Captain Cowan's and Deputy Dr. Browne's, their support of the Fianna Fáil Party is based on their antagonism to Fine Gael and on their intense dislike for the Leader of the Clann na Poblachta Party, Deputy Seán MacBride.

I am not concerned with many things that have been mentioned here in this debate. I am not concerned with the bitterness which certain Deputies feel towards one another. I am not concerned with the inner workings of the Fianna Fáil Party and the only criticism I have in respect of that Party is in relation to Deputy Briscoe's remark that the Party is free to criticise: free to criticise possibly in private, but not in public. Some gibes were made in relation to the recent Labour Party Conference. May I say that it is not necessary for us to lock our criticisers up in Rathmines Town Hall, or any other town hall, to give them an opportunity of airing their views? They can always air their views in public as a democratic Party.

I think the Deputy had better throw his mind back to the Mansion House where there is an open convention every year and thousands of people are present.

I am not concerned with the innuendoes of the Minister for Finance when he makes these interjections. I think he ought to have a fair idea of the way I think with regard to these people and these matters.

The Árd-Fheis of Fianna Fáil is open to the Press and to the public.

The Árd-Fheis of the Fianna Fáil Party consists of a long statement from either the Taoiseach or the Tánaiste with a few harmless resolutions thrown in from some of the cumainn.

The Deputy will now come back to the motion.

I apologise for deviating. This Budget has been framed around such phrases as: The people are living beyond their means; the standard of living is too high; if a man cannot balance his family budget he must take drastic steps to do so as soon as possible. It seems extraordinary that such harsh budget proposals should be introduced at a time when the unemployment situation is in such a parlous state. If there has been an abnormal increase in unemployment of approximately 10 per cent. over the last nine or ten months the only section that must take responsibility for that is the Fianna Fáil Party and its leaders. There were such pessimistic speeches from the Government Front Bench and such talk about crisis, doom, disaster, bankruptcy and incompetency that there was a definite recession in business and businessmen were afraid to either buy or sell. The result of that was unemployment and the laying off of many men. There was another reason for unemployment and that was the go-slow policy of the Department of Local Government in relation to not alone housing projects but other public works as well. Indeed, there still seems to be an effort on the part of Local Government in relation to housing, water supply, sewerage and different other public works to save money, not so much to tell the local authorities they will not be given a particular loan or grant but to keep holding up proposals from the local authorities for weeks, for months, in an endeavour to have the financial year passed by without the expenditure of moneys notified to them.

Deputy Briscoe, a few moments ago, went to great pains here to show us, by way of letters from his constituents, the effect of the Budget on the normal family. If the Minister for Finance wants £15,000,000—and I make him a present of that, for the sake of argument—where does he propose to get it? I think it is a scandalous thing that he proposes to get it from such sources as bread, tea, butter, sugar, the bottle of stout, the pint of beer or the packet of cigarettes. This Budget is certainly going to impose severe hardships on the ordinary working-class family. But what will it do to people whom we generally describe as rich people, people who have money? Will it put the Chrysler car off the road, will it have any effect on the man who runs the Chrysler car, any appreciable effect? Does it do anything to that section of the people, however big or small it may be, who frequent and frequent daily the cocktail bars of this city and of Cork, Limerick, Waterford and other big provincial towns? Is it going to affect their standard of living or their cost of living? Will this Budget prevent people from still going to every single race meeting that is held in this country? Will this Budget prevent people who have been in the habit for years of going across to the City of London and enjoying week-ends? Will this Budget prevent a certain section of people from stioll buying mink fur coast, will it impose any hardship on them? Of course, I know that to talk in that particular strain, especially from these benches, leaves oneself open immediately to the crack that one is either a Socialist or a "Red." I suggest that the particular section of the community who have been in the habit of doing these things I have mentioned can still do them, that they can still buy these things without any appreciable hardship. It is true they will have to pay more for tea, bread, butter and sugar and that may mean 10/-. 15/-or £1 per week. That does not have any effect on them. I would not say it would have any appreciable effect on the type of person to whom Deputy Briscoe has referred, the 5,000 or 6,000 odd who, again admitted by Deputy Briscoe, have net incomes of £2,000 per year.

There is no use in talking here for an hour or an hour and a half about how it is going to affect the ordinary working family. As soon as the terms of the Budget became known, every single father or mother in a household could get out a piece of pencil and paper and in five minutes reckon what this Budget was going to mean by way of extra cost to them during the week. Would anybody refute these figures?

In the case of a man with a wife and three children, if he purchases a mere 2 oz. of tea for each during the week the extra cost to him would be 1/5½d. That is on the basis of tea being 5/- per lb. Does anyone deny that increase? Deputy Briscoe is usually well informed; he has told us about the various prices of teas in other countries in Europe and I gather from him that the price of any decent or fair quality tea will be in the region of 5/-. If that family of five purchases the 2 oz. per person per week it will cost them an extra 1/5½. We understand that butter is going up 10d. per lb. There have been various suggestions and rumours that 10d. is the minimum increase—that there is the possibility on the 1st July that the price will be 4/2 per lb. Let us take it even on the basis of 10d. increase. It will mean to that family of five buying the ordinary ration an extra cost of 2/1 per week. If the same family buys the ration of sugar—and many people may regard it as inadequate—the 3¾ lb. will mean an extra cost of 9½d.

In the case of bread, let us take again the ordinary rationed amount— and every single one of us knows that every family purchases more and is able to purchase more than the ordinary rationed amount of bread. I think the Department of Industry and Commerce in this Government and in the last have been responsible to a big extent for the laxity regarding the distribution and general rationing of bread, to the detriment of some local bakers. In any case that family of five purchasing the rationed amount, 30 lb., will have an extra cost of 6/3.

The total extra cost on that family for tea, butter, sugar and bread will be 10/7 per week. That is not the real increase as there are allowances in the way of increased children's allowances, which I reckon will be 4/-per week to that family of five, leaving that family to pay an extra 6/7 for these commodities.

That is not mentioning the cigarette or the bottle of stout. It seems to be high treason for one to mention a bottle of stout or a cigarette here. I do not allege that they are the be-all and end-all of a man's life from one end of the week to the other. I would not describe them as an absolute luxury, nor would I describe them as an absolute necessity. Should it be necessary to say that again in respect of certain workers, especially in the rural areas, who have neither parish halls nor cinemas nor any other form of amusement after their day's work is done but to go down to the local public house and get two bottles of stout and, to give it the name by which it is called in parts of County Wexford, to pass the time "soolaying" the two bottles of stout for two hours? You could have, say, Deputy MacBride, Deputy Allen and myself doing that and talking about a football match or the dogs or anything else. That is the importance of the two bottles of stout. It brings men together in rural areas; it brings them into the low-ceilinged, cobweb-bedecked public house and gives them company. From that point of view, one might err by calling it a luxury, but one could also err on the other side by calling it just somewhat a necessity. A couple of shillings a week on a wage in a rural area of £3 10s. is a substantial sum. These people should have concern for the balance of payments, they should have concern for the observations in the Central Bank Report, they should have concern for the general finances of their nation; they have some concern, but the one thing that is of importance to them during the week is what money they have to spend. Would the Minister blame them for being interested only in the fact that a man with a wife and three children will have to pay an extra 6/7 per week? That man with three children or with four or five children cannot understand why he should be expected to make a substantial contribution towards bridging that gap of £15,000,000 when he sees certain things around him, the things which I described a few moments ago in my speech.

The Taoiseach said on one occasion here that the increase per individual would be in the region of 1/6 per week. Nobody believes that that is so. It just could not be 1/6 per week. The minimum in my opinion on the figures I have given, assuming that the individual will purchase the now rationed amounts, would be 2/1½. per week. We can surely examine that increase in relation to the old age pension. Deputy Flanagan was taken to task here by Deputy Briscoe for alleging that the old age pensioner lived for his pint, that the only reason he got up in the morning was to get his pint and the only reason he did anything at all was to get his pint. I do not think that Deputy Flanagan or anybody else in this House would make that allegation or even infer anything to that effect, but it is an important factor in the lives of many of our old age pensioners. When a man reaches 70 years of age, or 75, 80 or 85, what much more has he to look forward to, provided that he does drink, than his pint or his bottle of stout? As we know, all or most of them take a nip of whiskey or brandy. They take it not for amusement, not to get merry, not to dance, but to keep the life in them. An old friend of mine, an old lady of 85, endeavours to drink a half glass of brandy every night. It keeps her alive and she will probably live to be 95 because she is able to save or to make available the few shillings for that luxury if you like. It is the only thing she lives for and the only thing that keeps her alive.

Deputy Briscoe took the example of nine in family and I think he said that the increase to this family would be about 14/- per week. He asked me to refute his figures. I reckon that the family of nine purchasing 18 oz. of tea will have to pay an extra 2/7½ from the 1st July; the family of nine who will purchase 4½ lb. of butter, the rationed amount—and we all know that that is not sufficient—will have to pay an extra 3/9; that family who will purchase 6¾ lb. of sugar will have to pay an extra 1/6; purchasing 48 lb. of bread they will have to pay an extra 11/3. Deputy Briscoe said that this family would purchase 32 lb. of bread. God help the family of nine who will consume a mere 32 lb. of bread per week. I rather imagine that if the father is a tradesman or has a weekly wage he would not be able to give many mutton chops or steaks to his family. Their principal diet, as Deputy Briscoe described it, the staff of life, would be bread and the minimum they would purchase would be 48 lb., the rationed amount. The increase to that family, therefore, would be 19/1½ per week. The concession to them would be 10/-per week so the net extra burden on that family would be 9/1½ per week.

I listened to Deputy Dr. Browne yesterday and I thought from the major portion of his speech that he was not in favour of this Budget. But it seems to be the fashion in this House when one does not agree with one Party or another or when one is confronted with some proposal for which one does not want to vote, to say that it is a cheap political trick. The basis of Deputy Dr. Browne's objection to the Parties on this side of the House was that their opposition was a mere political trick. That may be all right here in debate but it will be extremely difficult for Deputies Browne, ffrench-O'Carroll, Cowan or Cogan to go back to their constituents, to go back to a family of five, and be asked why that family of five should have to pay an extra 6/7 per week on foodstuffs.

Deputy Dr. Browne paid a compliment to the officials of the Department of Finance and said that surely these very clever men, these brilliant men, would explore every single avenue, every single channel in an effort to discover whether the burden of taxation could not be placed somewhere else. By inference he said that the only conclusion the Department of Finance could come to or that he could come to was that portion of this £15,000,000 should be got by the withdrawal of the food subsidies. I do not think that anybody who heard Deputy Dr. Browne could take any other meaning from his concluding remarks. It is extraordinary that a man with Deputy Dr. Browne's reputation, especially when one has regard to his concern for the mothers and children of the State and to his express concern for the tubercular afflicted people of the State, should, with his colleagues, Deputies ffrench-O'Carroll and Cowan, walk into the Division Lobby in this year, 1952, and vote for an increase in the price of butter. the price of bread and the price of sugar and vote as he did, even though he strongly objected to it yesterday, for the abolition of the tax on the dance halls. Deputy Briscoe spoke about the abolition of the tax on dance halls. He dismissed it with a wave of his hand as to him it meant a mere £140,000 or £150,000. It may be a small sum when one has regard to the colossal amount of £15,000,000 but it would be a contribution and it seems strange, therefore, to hear Deputy Dr. Browne criticising as severly as he did yesterday the abolition of the dance tax when we remember that two weeks ago he walked in a very docile fashion into the Division Lobby to support that proposal.

This Budget has been rightly described as harsh. I would describe it as something that is very near to Deputy Dr. Browne's heart, a nomeans test Budget, inasmuch as the major reliefs, those with regard to children's allowances, are applied to every single section of the community.

We had a lecture from Deputy Briscoe and others about food subsidies. We were asked in rhetorical fashion whether or not the Irish people wanted to be beggars, mendicants. We were asked were we a race who would accept charity? It seemed funny coming from a Deputy who is a member of a Party that insulted the people by offering and giving them, in the 30's, free beef—not even money, but beef that they had on their hands and could not get rid of.

And supported by the Labour Party.

That was property they confiscated and divided.

A Deputy

The economic war.

I cannot take any responsibility for the economic war.

But Deputy Rooney can.

Deputy Childers will tell us about it.

Objection is taken to the provision by the Government of food subsidies. If subsidies on food are objectionable, are children's allowances objectionable? Is that not another form of subsidy? Is not the farmer subsidised for practically everything he lays his hand to, whether it is desirable or not?

In what way?

For practically every single thing the farmer does he is subsidised.

In what way?

By way of grant, bounty or premium.

Give an instance.

Deputy Corry will tell you.

Does not he get a subsidy with regard to the production of milk?

None, not a penny, not a farthing. That is more of the propaganda.

The Deputy is always in a very good position to refute anything from me that he describes as propaganda.

Well you know it.

The Deputy can always refute it.

They get relief on rates on agricultural land.

Deputy Corish on the motion.

Can any member of the Fianna Fáil Party tell us why there was included in their 17-point programme a declaration that they would retain the food subsidies? This was on the 5th June. This was at a period when they were bargaining for the votes of five Independents. Presumably, the two prize fish they wanted to catch on that occasion were Deputy Dr. Browne and Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll. It has been said early in the debate that not alone was Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll very, very strongly in favour of the retention of food subsidies when he appealed to the electorate, approximately this time last year, but that he declared that if he were returned to Dáil Éireann, he would press for the food subsidies to be increased rather than diminished.

This 17-point programme was a programme, which, I am sure, the supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party were looking forward to seeing in operation. There was a possibility at that time that they would form a Government. I rather imagine that many of the leaders of the Fianna Fáil Party knew at the time that they would have the support of some of the Independents and that they would form a Government. It is extraordinary that, nine or ten months afterwards, this very important part of their 17-point programme should be dropped and that the food subsidies should be slashed.

Deputy Briscoe wondered why the Trade Union Congress should advocate an increase in surtax. I have said and I repeat that, according to Deputy Briscoe's argument, there were some of these 5,000 odd people whose average income ranged from £2,000 to about £2,500. I do not think it would be unreasonable to ask people whose salaries are in the region of £2,000 to £2,500 to bear a slightly heavier burden than is borne by the man who has £4, £5, £6, £7 or £8 per week.

It was also advocated by the Trade Union Congress that the excess profits tax be reimposed. Immediately one advocates that from these benches there is the gibe that the inter-Party Government did not impose it. It is possible that the inter-Party Government did not need to impose it. Here, if we are confronted with a task of raising £50,000,000, surely it is not unreasonable to consider very strongly the imposition of a tax which would net for this country next year between £7,000,000 and £8,000,000. It may be said that the situation is too critical and must be dealt with immediately. Rather than impose the hardships implied in the Budget on the workers and their families, it would not be wrong to impose this tax or to declare that this tax would be imposed this year, even although the £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 would accumulate next year.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. Lemass, made an extraordinary statement. He said that there is a possibility that in estimating the money required to run the services for the present year there is an error of 5 per cent. on either side. It is a bad thing for the working-class people if the bill has been overestimated to the tune of 5 per cent. If that 5 per cent. were taken off the total bill that has been presented it would mean that practically every single penny of the food subsidies could be restored. It is a serious thing if what Mr. Lemass says is correct. If there has been a 5 per cent. error on the other side, it is a very bad thing. Surely we could have some clarification of the statement of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that there could be a 5 per cent. error, especially when we know that, if there was a 5 per cent. error, every single penny of the food subsidies could be restored.

Deputy Briscoe gibed at the proposition that there should be a luxury goods purchase tax. He queried the expression "luxury goods". He wondered what they were. He gave the example of the well-cut suit made of good material. One does not consider that a real luxury in the sense that was meant by the Trade Union Congress in the statement which they issued in the last few days. As I said in the beginning, I do not think anybody would deny that a mink coat is a luxury. I do not think anybody would agree that a Chrysler car is a necessity. I do not think anybody would say that a Pim's No. 7 or a "Blue Angel" or a "Horse's Neck" is a necessity. There are many things that are being used by a certain section, things which are reasonably cheap and which could bear an additional cost. Certainly a tax on them would not produce a great deal of money but people wonder why their very life is taxed, in bread, tea, butter and sugar, with the possibility of an increase in the price of milk. I do not think people would have seriously objected, or would have objected as strongly as they do, if there had been some increase in tax on beer and cigarettes. It may be alleged that we want to do away entirely with the tax on these commodities but, as far as I am concerned, and as far as the people I represent are concerned, they would have taken and they did expect from the Fianna Fáil Party an increase in taxation on cigarettes and the possibility of a penny or so going on to the bottle of stout.

The one thing they ask themselves is why it was necessary in the Budget proposals to remit to the cigarette manufacturers a sum of practically £1,000,000. I think the exact figure was £900,000. The farm labourer is expected to pay more for bread, for tea, for sugar and for butter and the tobacco kings of this country are given a present of £1,000,000. The man in the country "pub" is expected to pay an increased price, 9d., for his bottle of stout and there is a present of some hundreds of thousands given to the brewers of the country. Then Fianna Fáil ask us why we describe this as an unfair Budget. The obvious answer can be got from the electorate.

This is one of the most debated Budgets ever introduced here and it is the only Budget since 1922 that has caused such a furore. Do Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party especially believe that there is an acceptance of the proposals in this Budget and that there will be an acceptance of its consequences by the people who sent them into this House at the last election? The people are up in arms, but the unfortunate thing is that they can do nothing about it. We can do nothing about it here by reason of the fact that we are in a minority, but the four men who have the key in their hands are the four Independent Deputies who, in their every speech since they came in here in June, have pledged themselves to support as fully and as strongly as they can the Fianna Fáil Government.

As I said at the beginning, their support is not based or founded on loyalty to the policy of Fianna Fáil, and neither is it founded, because I know these gentlemen personally, on loyalty to the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Eamon de Valera. They have no great love for Fianna Fáil, especially when some of them remember the attitude, as they described it. of the Minister for Justice over ten or 11 years of the régime of Fianna Fáil. Some of them have no use for the policy of Fianna Fáil that was so well displayed in the introduction of the Wages Standstill Order. I should say that three of them, Deputy Cowan, Deputy Dr. Browne and Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll, have the utmost contempt for the policy of Fianna Fáil and for the majority of the leaders who sit on the Front Bench of Fianna Fáil That contempt, however, is replaced at present by what I believe to be a temporary dislike of the man under whose leadership they sat after the 1948 election. The whole bitterness and antagonism is directed against Deputy Seán MacBride.

Do not be ridiculous.

I mentioned three Deputies.

I would not sit under Deputy MacBride and I am not supporting Fianna Fáil.

The Deputy is on very dangerous ground. He has been ordered not to support a Coalition Government, save by consent of the Labour Party.

Deputy Mac Fheórais on the motion.

Does the Deputy agree that if Deputy MacBride was straight in 1948, this position would never have arisen to-day?

I am not conversant with the internal working of the Clann na Poblachta Party.

The internal workings of the inter-Party Government, though.

To some extent. I have nothing further to say, except again to voice my protest and the protest of my Party against a Budget which I have described as a no-means test Budget, inasmuch as the reliefs are given to every individual and every section and the severe impositions placed on the people least able to bear them.

In speaking in this debate, I should like to be as brief and as much to the point as possible. I propose to confine my remarks to three headings: First, the question of increased taxation; secondly, food subsidies and the envisaged social welfare benefits; and thirdly, some comments in regard to the capital side of the Budget. I have supported the Government on all the Resolutions which they have so far brought forward to enable them to raise extra revenue from taxation. I am quite convinced at the moment, from what I have heard of the financial discussions here and from what I have read of the position in whatever documents are available to me, that increased taxation is inevitable at present.

The case of the Opposition has been that the Minister for Finance has overestimated the amount of revenue required and has consequently overtaxed. As an Independent Deputy, I cannot possibly decide at this stage for myself whether there is anything whatever in that allegation or not. It has also been suggested that the taxes which have been imposed are too high and that the community cannot carry them. I think that, in the main, that allegation again is without foundation. So far as cigarettes, whiskey and petrol are concerned, I do not see any reason whatever why the community should not be able to carry these taxes. So far as the pint is concerned, it is possible that the Government has overtaxed. I do not mean that purely in terms of consumption of beer and stout, but there are many public houses which sell a large quantity of beer and stout but which do not sell spirits to the same extent, and, from that point of view, the increase of 3d. is possibly too heavy. Personally, I would have preferred to see that increase, if unavoidable, 1d. or 2d. less at the expense of almost any of the other items.

So far as income-tax is concerned, I think the Minister has levied his tax in a fair and equitable manner. What the people will have to realise is that the revenue from income-tax, direct taxation, as it is operated at present is relatively small. There are less than 200,000 people in this country who pay income-tax. That is something I find very hard to understand and everybody who hears the figure for the first time is amazed by it, but that is the position. Therefore, when increased social welfare benefits and health schemes and increased expenditure under the Estimates of almost every Government Department are envisaged year after year, the public must realise that increased taxes are necessary and that at present a large proportion of the revenue will have to be derived from taxes on spirits, tobacco and amusements. It is often remarked that Britain's progress in the matter of social welfare benefits in the post-war period has been so great compared with the progress in this and many other countries.

Now, those who laud Britain's progress in the line of social welfare should also note how much greater is the income-tax in that country as well as the price of tobacco, alcohol and entertainment. I think it is our duty to make it perfectly clear to the public that, if they want these greatly increased social services as well as the increases under all the different Estimates, increased taxation is inevitable.

I find it very hard to understand the Labour Party's attitude towards this question of taxation, particularly the increase in income-tax. I would have thought that the greatest single reason why Deputy Norton's social welfare scheme was never implemented by the inter-Party Government was largely due to the fact that Fine Gael obtained office, to a considerable extent at any rate, by promising to reduce taxation. Now, whils there has been a great hue and cry about this increased taxation one thing is particularly intersting. It is this, that not even the most irresponsible Deputy on the Opposition side of the House has given any undertaking to reduce that taxation. I think it is perfectly clear that Fine Gael are taking every step to see that their hands will not be tied on that issue a second time. Now, while this, or at any rate some, increase in taxation was inevitable, it is the association of heavy increased taxation and this precipitate withdrawal of the greater part of the food subsidies which puts this Budget in a completely different category, one which, in my opinion at any rate, can only be described as deflationary.

It has been obvious for some years that the rise in the cost of food subsidies has been creating serious financial problems for successive Governments. At the last election, I thought it was possible that the Fine Gael Party, in their effort to avoid increased taxation—it seems to me that the subject of increased taxation has become sacrosanct with them—might attempt to abolish or put a ceiling to the food subsidies. Hence, my undertaking that I would be anxious to support increased subsidies. The position to-day is that Fine Gael did not do that, to their credit. Fianna Fáil have now taken the step. They have taken the step despite the fact, as Deputy O'Higgins pointed out yesterday in a very able speech in so far as the food subsidies are concerned, at any rate, that they did give an undertaking that the food subsidies would be maintained in one of their 17 points.

On this question of food subsidies, I think we cannot dismiss the issue as lightly as some tell us. Mind you, I accept this, that a situation might be reached where food subsidies, if prices continued to rise, might become an unbearable tax burden on the taxpayers. But I feel that, if such a state of affairs were arrived at, the money which was withdrawn from the food subsidies should be adequately returned to those sections of the community which were going to suffer as a result of that withdrawal.

I have looked into these social welfare benefits very carefully. Let us be clear that these social welfare benefits only apply to that limited section of the people which will be affected by the withdrawal of the food subsidies. I cannot say that they adequately compensate those people. Take, for example, the question of children's allowances. It is computed that the loss is 1/6 per head, but that there is a children's allowance of 2/6 for the second child. A simple mathematical calculation shows that actually the figure is 1/3. On the question of children's allowances, they were an election promise. The Fianna Fáil Party had already promised to increase the children's allowances. How, then, can it be stated that the entire 1/6, which is now being offered, is compensation for the withdrawal of the food subsidies? As far as the old age pensioners are concerned, I think that 1/6 is a pathetic offer really. Mathematically, it may be correct, but frankly, how an old age pensioner can manage to survive at all in existing circumstances is a mystery to me. In regard to the increase on spirits and tobacco, I do not think it is right in this case. I frankly do not see how people can purchase any of these things.

I now come back to the question of subsidies. I think they have a very important function because, to my mind, they act as a sort of arbitrator, if one may put it that way, between the producer and the consumer. I think that, as long as there are subsidies there, it is going to be much more difficult for any Government to raise the price of foodstuffs because, if they raise the price of foodstuffs, they have got to deal with the taxpayer when it comes to the question of increasing the subsidy.

I fear that, once these subsidies are removed, price control will be much more difficult. As a Dublin Deputy, I frankly fear a sell-out to the country, I know that view is not going to be very popular in the House, but I feel that as long as there are no food subsidies, in many instances, successive Governments will be in a position to give increases to farmers without having to face the question of extra taxation, and these small increases will just become something which will be much more frequent. I feel that the criticism of the Opposition on the question of food subsidies is justified. However, it is not merely sufficient to lament the proposed withdrawal. As an Independent Deputy, I want to know what is the future policy of Fine Gael and the Labour Party on this issue. Is Deputy John A. Costello, the Leader of the Opposition, or at any rate of the greater part of it, prepared to give an undertaking that the Opposition policy is to reintroduce the subsidies on tea, sugar, butter and bread, and that these subsidies should be increased as the costs of these foodstuffs rise? That is an important issue. That is a step which would show that the Fine Gael view on this was different from that of Fianna Fáil, and that my remarks at the last election were not justified. If the Fianna Fáil Government felt they had to withdraw the subsidies, why did they do it in such a precipitate manner? Could they not have withdrawn the subsidy on butter, sugar or tea and left the bread? Do they not realise, as everyone must, that bread is the mainstay of the diet of thousands and possibly millions of Irish families?

The subsidy on bread has not been entirely withdrawn.

I did not say they were all going. I feel that under the existing taxes they should at least have been able to leave the full bread subsidy. It would have been a simple matter to compensate people in regard to the withdrawal of the subsidies on tea, sugar and butter. If the food subsidies are withdrawn to this extent there is only one way left to deal with the situation. The Government will have to be prepared to grant wage increases.

That is where, I think, economically the mistake is because they will be forced to grant wage increases in industries which at the present moment have great difficulty in maintaining existing levels of employment. I noticed that Deputy Dr. Browne said yesterday that he did not think that any Government could afford to bring in a deflationary Budget at present. I think he is absolutely right in that remark.

I thought that, when I replied to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs on the Vote on Account, I made my views pretty clear on this subject. Perhaps my reference to Marie Antoinette and her famous remarks in regard to bread may have seemed rather exaggerated at that time but in the light of subsequent events they are not so.

There is one other aspect of the Budget in which I am interested, and that is the question of capital development. I am sorry in a way that the Tánaiste is not here because I would like to have re-read to him some of his remarks on the Supplies and Services Bill. I am very glad to hear he is recovering and that he will be back with us soon.

There is one of the recommendations of the Central Bank which the Government has not taken—and in fairness there are very few they have not taken. They do definitely envisage an even larger capital development programme than took place last year but how are they going to finance that capital development programme? The Minister for Finance has yet to clear up many points on that subject. The question must arise as to further external disinvestment and the amount which will be raised by loan, savings and so on. However, we will have opportunities to discuss that in detail at a later date.

Before closing, there is just one other point I should like to discuss—I should have mentioned it earlier—in regard to the withdrawal of the subsidy on butter and its derationing. Is it not likely that such a step will mean there will be increased consumption of butter? In the event of increased consumption of butter, where will the Government obtain the extra amount required? Can it be produced at home and will further importation of butter have a deleterious effect on our balance of payments? I would like to inquire how we are going to ensure that everybody will get a fair supply of butter if there is a shortage of butter and no rationing?

On the question of taxes, I perfectly understand and support the taxes of Mr. MacEntee. They are unavoidable and will be unavoidable in the future. I think, however, that the withdrawal of subsidies at the moment is most undesirable from an economic point of view.

I am sure that the Deputies in this Hous who listened to the Taoiseach's speech yesterday cannot but have remarked that the Taoiseach, with the passage of time, has not lost any of his ability—nor the faculty of being able to use a great many words without saying very much. He did, however, address himself to some of the fundamental issues involved in this Budget, but I am afraid he only dealt with them rather superficially.

His main theme since the outset of these discussions has been that we are living beyond our means. It is a good slogan. It is a simple catch-cry, but one that does not bear examination or analogy to our present position. Is a business firm which has large investments and large credits in the bank living beyond its means if it utilises those credits or sells some of those investments in order to increase its output or in order to develop its business? That is the position that we are in. We are, I think, one of the few creditor nations in the world. We are, I think, the only creditor nation in Europe—at least, in Western Europe. I do not know what the position is in Eastern Europe.

One of the difficulties that I find in discussing any economic problem in the House is the lack of information which has been made available concerning the total sterling holdings of this nation. We are given—the Taoiseach referred to them speaking here yesterday—figures of what are termed our "net" sterling assets. These figures do not represent our total holdings of sterling assets. I understand that these figures have been reached by taking our total sterling holdings and deducting therefrom not merely claims that might be made as a result of foreign investments here, but also by deducting therefrom the total capital value of any firm or company registered outside the State, and that, in pursuance of that, the value of a firm such as Messrs. Guinness has been debited as a liability against our sterling holdings here. As far as I have been able to assess the position, not, I admit, with any great degree of certainty, from the meagre figures made available, we have in the neighbourhood of £500,000,000 invested in England. I do not tie myself to that figure, but I do not think it would be £100,000,000 out.

I cannot accept the statement that the Department of Finance has not made an up-to-date estimate of the total sterling assets that this country holds, and I do not accept the figures given of "net" sterling assets as an accurate picture or description of the position.

I refer to this, as a good deal of confusion has been created by the figures used by the Department of Finance and supplied to the Taoiseach in that respect, and I should like to ask the Taoiseach to have that particular matter examined. I have asked a number of questions from time to time, but these questions were usually brushed aside on the basis that there was no reliable information. If there is no reliable indication of the total holding of sterling assets we have, how then is the figure arrived at in respect of what is described as the "net" sterling holding?

Probably the most significant feature of the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance and of the long speech made by the Taoiseach— I am using the term "long speech" in no derogatory sense—was their complete silence as to what should be the primary concern of any Government in the modern world, namely, unemployment and emigration. The Budget statement of the Minister for Finance reviewed every aspect of economic activity in the country save one, the most important one, unemployment. The Taoiseach spoke at length yesterday, but made no reference, good, bad or indifferent, to unemployment or to emigration. Surely it is now appreciated, and has been for the last quarter of a century at least by every Government in every country in the world, that the framing of the economic policy, the budgetary policy of a Government, must be considered primarily in relation to employment. I cannot believe that these omissions are accidental.

The Taoiseach spoke in some detail about many matters yesterday, and discussed the difficulties involved in the trisection of an angle. I do not know whether it has very much relevance to the subject under discussion. It struck me that some reference to the condition of employment might have been more relevant.

The Taoiseach is an adept at making simple but very false analogies. He pointed out that the analogy between the policy which was being pursued by the Government and the policy pursued by the British Government was simply this: that the British Government, because there was a shower of rain, were sheltering under a tree and that there is no reason why we should not shelter under the same tree. That is a very simple and a very attractive analogy but it is not a true analogy of the position. Might I suggest this analogy instead? If a person is suffering from gangrene in his foot or hand and finds it necessary to have an amputation of the foot or the hand, would it be wise for another person who did not suffer from gangrene in his foot or in his hand also to have his foot or his hand amputated just in sympathy? It seems to me that that is exactly what we are doing.

The problems that confront British economy are diametrically opposed to the problems which confront our economy. I have repeatedly pointed out in this House that every single economic factor applicable to Britain is different from the economic factors applicable to us. Britain is a highly industrialised country; we are underdeveloped. Britain has a surplus population; we are under-populated. Britain is a debtor nation: we are a creditor nation. There is no single economic factor identical. Yet, automatically practically, we apply the remedies applied in Britain, not because they are required by the facts of our economy but largely in sympathy and largely because we follow suit.

The Taoiseach was indignant at the fact that there had been suggestions made that the policy of the Government or the policy embodied in the Budget was influenced by the British Treasury. Does anybody seriously believe that it was not? Why at this stage wax indignant about it? Was not our Minister for Finance summoned to London to discuss this very position? Have not all the steps taken in England been taken here?

And in Denmark also.

Do not mind Denmark. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs spoke a great deal about Denmark, but he must know very little about it or he would know that the last Danish Government was put out of office for pursuing the same policy.

The Deputy will hear all about it.

I do not want to enter into an argument on matters of that kind. It might be well if the Minister learned from the facts. It is very surprising that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs or the Taoiseach did not wax indignant when an editorial appeared in the Irish Times some time ago which, I think, represents truly the probable view of many of those who support the Government at the moment.

Is the Deputy serious?

The Deputy may smile and laugh, but he has only got to read the Irish Times and he will see that the policy which it advocates is frequently carried out by the Irish Government. Let me quote from the editorial of the Irish Times of the 31st January last:

"In current meteorological jargon, a deep depression is centred over London at the moment, and probably will be moving in a north-westerly direction towards Dublin in the fairly near future. In the House of Commons on Tuesday, Mr. R. A. Butler, the Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer, outlined his proposals for the closing of the yawning gap in Great Britain's balance of payments. He also announced that Mr. Seán MacEntee, the Irish Finance Minister, had accepted an invitation to visit London very soon, in order to discuss with the British the manifold problems that must be solved by the sterling group. Mr. MacEntee is a realist. He is not one of those foolish persons who are inclined to bury their heads in the financial and economic sands, declaring that England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity. He knows, as we all know, or ought to know, that, for better or for worse, we are all in the same predicament. The Irish pound is anchored firmly to sterling. If sterling collapses, our pound also will collapse; and there is nothing that can be done about it. Consequently, it is essential that there should be the closest ad hoc co-operation between Dublin and London. Anti-partition fanatics may send messages of sympathy to the Egyptians, and congratulate them on their heroic stand against British `imperialism'; but, where sterling is concerned, British and Irish interests happen to be identical....”

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who now wants to intervene, told us that our sterling assets were a standing army of occupation and that it was treachery to the nation to suggest that they should be interfered with. Is not that exactly what the enlightened economists who wrote the various minority reports of the Banking Commission predicted in 1938?

Did Deputy MacBride not get the opportunity of breaking with sterling when they devalued the pound?

Unfortunately, Deputy MacBride did not get that opportunity. Deputy MacBride's Party was only a minority Party in the inter-Party Government. He sought to influence the policy of that Government to the best of his ability. He succeeded in doing so in a proportionate ratio to the representation which the people accorded to him.

Before I pass from the point, I wish to say that both the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach went to some considerable pains to defend the Central Bank and the banking interests of this country. They seemed to have overlooked the views which they themselves expressed in other days concerning these institutions. We were told in other days by the Minister for Finance that the Anglo-Irish banks have been on the side of Britain and that the Currency Commission has also been on the side of Britain. The older people amongst the Deputies opposite will remember that we were told then by the Tánaiste that when our currency was tied to the British currency and that when Irish banks were permitted to maintain their entanglements with Britain, we were destroying with one blow the greatest benefits that had been secured in the Anglo-Irish Treaty. That was what the Minister for Finance and the Tánaiste had to say in those days. Were they right then or are they wrong to-day? Is there any reason why we should be denounced or why I should be denounced in this House by the Taoiseach or by the Minister for Finance for saying that, in my view, the policy advocated by the Central Bank is one which is detrimental to the national interest?

I feel that some effort should be made by all Parties in this House to examine this question objectively. In my view, they should seek to make an analysis of the economic problems of the country on a much longer-term basis than has been done in the past. I was criticised for making attacks on the personnel of the Central Bank. However, the views which I hold are shared by a great many people. Unfortunately, when we took over the country in 1921 none of those who were associated with the national movement had any firm grasp of, experience of, or training in Government or economic problems. That was inevitable. The civil war soon followed. We took over the existing machinery and the existing personnel—the machinery and the personnel whose training had been subservient to British financial interests. It is not easy to put machinery in reverse gear. It is not easy to expect men who have been brought up in a certain school of thought to suddenly change their viewpoint. It is quite possible and I am quite willing to give the Governor of the Central Bank and those associated with him in framing the financial policy of this State, credit for possibly believing that it is in Ireland's interest to concentrate on investments in England, that it is in Ireland's interest to maintain huge sterling balances. Possibly they believed that genuinely. If they do believe that they are completely incompetent, and should be got rid of as soon as possible.

I do not know whether the Taoiseach gets reports of what is said in this House. Due to the condition of his eyesight, he probably finds it difficult to read such reports, but I would hope that one of the Deputies on the other side of the House would convey this message to the Taoiseach for me: ask him to read in the light of the present situation the minority reports of the Banking Commission of 1938. It is then that the wrong turn was taken. I know the circumstances of that period. I happen to know that the Taoiseach was very nearly inclined to take the right turn, but, unfortunately, at the last moment, he drew back and he took the wrong turn.

I do not want to bore the House with long quotations, but I think there are some references in these reports which are well worth reading in the light of present-day events. The House will remember that there were a number of minority reports. There was one signed by Professor O'Rahilly, Mr. William O'Brien and the late Mr. Seán Campbell. I quote from page 574 of the Banking Commission Report, that portion which gives the first minority report:—

"About 100,000 people are deprived of their right to live by labour; thousands of others live on intermittent jobs. Others, of whom we are reminded only when there is a shipwreck or a fire, have to migrate to Great Britain as harvest workers. It is estimated that for the five years, 1933-1937, there emigrated permanently to Great Britain 74,800 casualties in the peace-time war. It costs anything up to £1,000 to rear a person to the age of 21, so that we are, in fact, subsidising Britain. And why do they go? The Secretary for the Dominions (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald) said in the British House of Commons on the 3rd December, 1937."

The report then quotes:

"The object of the immigrants from the Irish Free State in coming to this country is to obtain work... Many of them readily obtain employment as navvies or on heavy labouring work of an unskilled character, for which owing in many cases to the heavy and arduous nature of the work, it is said that it is difficult to find an adequate supply of equally satisfactory applicants already available in this country."

The minority report then goes on:

"What a weird country to live in Short of capital for ourselves, we have to keep £230,000,000 invested in another country;

We are now keeping £500,000,000 invested in another country.

"and our economists turn pale with fear at the thought that we may be utilising some of these claims accumulated from exports not paid for by imports—to develop our own country. We have on hands an immense work of development, long overdue after centuries of neglect and misrule; yet by some inscrutable decree, we have to ship off our manhood to work as navvies for another country. With fertile tracks lying fallow and whole regions waiting to be reclaimed, we spend, out of central or local taxation about £4,000,000 annually to relieve distress and to provide work at odds and ends, and to the extent of over £2,000,000 we subsidise our farmers to export food for which our own people cannot afford to pay."

That was the view of those who signed the first minority report of the Banking Commission of 1938. I think it summarises the fundamental error in our economic policy. It was then that the wrong turn was taken. Could we now try to take the right turn? Professor Busteed of Cork University signed a separate minority report of his own. He refers to the maintenance of parity with sterling:—

"This is consoling to some. but disturbing to many others. These others consider that as a matter of prudence and common sense we should not be tied to the British chariot wheel. Prudent people cannot accept the certainty of future British stability and prosperity. They consider that it would be wise to have the freedom of choice and the mechanism by which we could make such adjustments in our relations with sterling as circumstances may require.

When Britain was on the gold standard we were on the gold standard. When Britain abandoned the gold standard we found that we were off the gold standard. If we were free to make our own decisions we would probably have followed sterling in any case, as many other countries did. But future circumstances may dictate different action."

Are all those people irresponsible? Are they all fools? Do none of them know what they are talking about? Are the only people who know anything the Governor of the Central Bank or the Secretary of the Department of Finance? There was a third and a more comprehensive minority report signed by Mr. P. J. O'Loghlen, who was a member of the Fianna Fáil Party. He wrote his report in collaboration with some other economists and organisations who have made a study of the economic position of the country. I would like to quote from this report:—

"The general tenor of the majority report..."

which is the report the Government accepted,

"...leads to the conclusion that it is neither the business, nor is it within the power of the Government, to make effective provision to secure and maintain a condition of full employment. We are warned against attempts being made to allow social considerations to interfere with what is assumed to be the unalterable working of economic laws. The idea that it is necessary to conform to unnamed economic laws which operate with predetermined precision, whatever the social consequences may be, is one from which I dissent completely. I think that economic policy should be made to meet human needs and not vice versa. I cannot accept the position that, if the financial system fails to enable a condition of full employment to be reached, the unemployed must therefore be left in penury, dependent on public or private charity, or compelled to emigrate in order to live. I believe that the financial system exists to serve the community, and not that the needs of the community must be cut down to fit the procrustean bed of the banking system as it exists to-day. ...The integration of the Irish economy with the fiscal and economic system of Great Britain has been and remains inimical to the major interests of this country. In this no question of politics is involved; it is a matter of economic facts."

There is no question of maintaining £500,000,000 of sterling assets in Britain as a standing army or of suggesting that it is treachery.

I did not say £500,000,000.

I did. The Minister has not admitted how much we have.

The Deputy will not misquote me. I never suggested that we should leave £500,000,000——

The Minister is reported as follows:—

"The controllable part of our external assets is a standing army of occupation in England, and it was treachery to the national cause to suggest that that army should be brought home."

And the controllable part is not £500,000,000.

The Government says that it does not know how much we have. I do not believe that the Department of Finance cannot tell us the total amount of our sterling assets. If they cannot give us that information then they do not know their job; they certainly cannot tell us what the "net" amount is if they do not know the "gross" amount.

There is not much left now.

My estimate, for what it is worth—I do not guarantee it to be accurate—is approximately £500,000,000.

The Deputy cannot touch most of it though he might like to get his hands on it.

Is the whole of this deflationary policy not on the basis that we want to maintain the sterling assets there, that we are afraid of disinvestment in Britain and of the repatriation and utilisation of these assets here?

The Deputy is talking sheer nonsense. We never said anything of the kind.

I think I can get the quotations.

I will leave the Deputy to make his speech. I apologise for interrupting him.

In those days, the majority report of the Banking Commission, which was accepted by the Government and which, I think, represents fairly accurately the philosophy of the Central Bank and the Department of Finance, based their arguments on the fact that sterling was the safest currency—that it was a stable currency that did not depreciate, unlike that most erratic currency called the dollar. Dealing with this particular aspect of the arguments of the majority report, the third minority report says:—

"A further reason given by my colleagues for the continuance of a fixed parity with sterling is the maintenance of relatively stable prices. Since the Irish Government was established our country has adhered to sterling and has experienced prices which have been far from stable. They have, indeed, fluctuated within very wide limits. Whether we take the prices for agricultural products, the figures for the cost of living, the price indices of imports and of exports, the record is one of extreme instability both in internal and external price levels."

That was written in 1938. I think it would do the Taoiseach and many members of the Government good to read these reports now. They will find that practically every forecast made by those who rule the Central Bank and those who rule the Department of Finance has been proved false by the events that have taken place, and that many of the forecasts made by those who dissented from that view in the minority reports have proved to be only too true.

It was suggested that I was somewhat unfair in my criticism of the Governor of the Central Bank. I have no particular axe to grind with the Governor of the Central Bank beyond the fact that I consider that the policy which he advocates is damaging to the national interest.

An article was written a couple of weeks ago by the financial correspondent of the Standard, whose articles over a period of years have always been of a constructive and objective nature—articles which deserve considerably more attention than they have received from members of this House. I should like to quote from the article which appeared in the Standard of the 11th April of this year as I think it sets out, probably more concisely and more accurately than I could, some of the objections to the type of mentality that rules the Central Bank.

"In considering the proposals of the Minister for Finance in the Budget for the financial year 1952-53, it is well to bear in mind the extent to which policy can be influenced by the officials of the Department of Finance.

Since the foundation of the State these officials have been consistent in that every consideration has been subordinated to the acquisition and retention of large sterling holdings. In the early days of the State sterling was backed pound for pound by gold, but later the gold standard was abandoned, and British money was created to any extent dictated by war requirements without any backing in things of value: This made no alteration in the outlook of our officials—to obtain sterling no matter what its value, and retain as much as possible, no matter how much its purchasing power was depreciating.

The Governor of the Central Bank is a former head of the Department of Finance, and in this policy of the worship of sterling he is perhaps the greatest Roman of them all.

Up to a point they got a free hand, their recommendations were accepted without question, and in the belief that there was something to be proud of in being one of the largest creditor nations of the world our savings were left idle while our resources called out for capital for development.

It is now urged in justification of this policy that the income from our external investments make a valuable contribution towards the balance of payments.

This is a misconception which it is difficult to understand being seriously propounded.

Income can only be considered as such when the value of the capital from which it derives is maintained, but when over a period the depreciation of capital is greater than the income received, it is nonsense to regard the income as an asset."

How much has this country lost in the course of the last 12 months as a result of the depreciation in the purchasing power of our sterling assets? Enough to cover this Budget twice over. How much has the nation lost in the course of the last ten years on the depreciation of these sterling balances? Mind you, the conservation of these assets is one of the considerations which is advanced for the maintenance of the hair-shirt economy here—to rectify the balance of payments. The financial correspondent goes on:—

"To illustrate, let us take as an example our own issue of 3 per cent. Exchequer Bonds in 1948. A holder will have received four years' dividends on, say, £1,000, totalling £120, from which must be deducted income-tax, reducing the figure to approximately £80. Over the same period the capital value of his investment will have fallen to £780, a reduction of £220, so that instead of obtaining £80, the holder has lost £220 minus £80—that is £140.

This is not the full picture, as if the holder required to make use of his money, while he could realise £780, that amount would purchase much less than £780 of the £1,000 invested in 1948."

Every word of that argument applies with equal force to our investments in British securities:—

"It is now generally accepted that the policy of the Government advisers has been wrong and that the nation has lost considerably through sterling hoarding when productive assets could have been acquired before the result of our sales to Britain depreciated in purchasing power. Nevertheless, the officials were allowed to dictate policy until a few years ago, when the overlording of the officials and of the brokers was simultaneously challenged. One cannot help thinking that resentment is in part responsible for the extremely gloomy interpretation now put forward and which has had a large influence on the terms of the Budget.

For the first time in our history the interpretation of the finance officials has been challenged when Mr. John A. Costello stated that £10,000,000 of the taxation proposed is without justification and submits figures and facts to support his contention. This must be taken as a responsible declaration made after full consideration, which would have to be substantiated by policy in the event of the Opposition gaining office.

I believe it is also a misconception to state that we have too much money and that the active purchasing power of the people will permit of higher taxation and leave a margin for savings. As stated in previous articles, I believe that the volume of purchasing power is insufficient to meet—at present prices —the requirements of our industry and the calls of taxation, and that increased demand will result in the drying up of purchasing power to such an extent that many of our own people, the small traders, will be forced into bankruptcy and their dependents left a charge on the State unless they take refuge in emigration."

I merely quote these comments to summarise a great many of the things that I should like to say on this Budget. I feel that possibly comments made by economists from outside the House on the situation will carry more weight with Deputies on the Government Benches than mine.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer. It was raised yesterday both by Deputy Dr. Browne and by the Taoiseach in a somewhat indirect fashion. The Taoiseach, I had hoped, was going to deal with the question more fully. He indicated that he would deal with it more fully from another angle, but then I think he forgot to deal with it. Repeated suggestions have been made in the course of recent months that the present position could, in some respects, be blamed on the United States of America. Veiled and indirect suggestions have been made that this country was subjecting itself to the domination of another country. We know that that other country is not Russia or Poland or Czechoslovakia or, unfortunately, England. The obvious inference is that in some way America is seeking to exert an improper influence in our economic policy or in our home policy in some respects.

I must say that when I was a member of the Government I never found the slightest justification for suggestions of that kind. If anything has taken place in the course of the last few months, since the change of Government, to indicate that America is seeking to impose an economic policy or a military policy on this country, then I think this House is entitled to be told about it. I think there should be an end to these veiled suggestions that come from many different quarters. We have been used to a spate of anti-American propaganda emanating from Communist parties. We have been used to a spate of anti-American propaganda emanating from England from a different point of view. We find many reflections of this anti-Americanism in the columns of the editor of the Irish Press. Is it part Communist point of view and the ultra-Tory British point of view. To these now we have added the veiled suggestion that America is attempting improperly to use some economic pressure on this country. Deputy Dr. Browne and some of his colleagues make frequent reference to that. I am sorry to say that some members of the Fianna Fáil Party have also lent themselves to this kind of propaganda recently.

If there is any foundation for this suggestion then the country is entitled to be told what that foundation is. We had no later than the other day reported in the Irish Times something that could hardly be described as anything but a personal attack on the American Ambassador here by the editor of the Irish Press. Is it part of the Government's policy to seek to justify this Budget by seeking to create the impression that some national issue in relation to the independence of this country is involved?

Mr. Coburn

Hear, hear! They have not the courage to say that.

If this Government is seeking to pick a quarrel with the United States of America in order to justify the imposition of this economic policy on the country, it is doing something which is both irresponsible and despicable, and the sooner it ceases that policy the better. We are entitled to an explanation of all these things.

The Deputy is ridiculous.

Does the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs wish to say something?

I say that the Deputy is ridiculous in his suggestion about America.

Then perhaps the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs will explain the personal attack made on the American Ambassador the other day by the editor of the Irish Press and subsequently reported in the Irish Times. There must be some reason for these suggestion in relation to the Budget proposals and these taxes. We are entitled to know what that reason is. Up to this I have been silent about this matter because I did not want to embarrass the Government, but when I see public pronouncements of the kind to which I have referred I must call for an explanation.

Deputy MacBride is now trying to sabotage the Irish nation.

Who has made these references?

Mr. Coburn

The Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach should not be referred to in that manner.

Mr. Coburn

He has not got the moral courage to come out in the open and he has not got the moral courage to answer Deputy MacBride. It is a straight question and it should have a straight answer.

Will Deputy MacBride be permitted to continue?

Mr. Coburn

The Deputy cheered the other day when Deputy Captain Cowan said that we were selling the soul of Ireland. What did that mean?

To Britain, as you people always wanted to sell it.

Is Deputy MacBride to be allowed to continue?

Indignation was expressed by the Taoiseach yesterday at the suggestion that the policy of the Government was in any way influenced or dictated by the members of the Central Bank. I have no doubt but that the policy of the Government in this Budget is dictated by the Central Bank. It may not be dictated in the form of an ultimatum by the Central Bank to the Government but it is dictated in this report. Step by step every recommendation made by the Central Bank has been implemented in this Budget.

We know that the head of the Department of Finance is a director of the Central Bank. We know that the Minister for Finance is often subject to influence from his officials. I have been criticised by the Taoiseach and other members of this House for not having resigned from the inter-Party Government when the Governor of the Central Bank was reappointed. There is this very vital difference: Whereas the present Government implements automatically the dictates of the Department of Finance and of the Central Bank, the last Government did not.

The House will remember that some time ago a debate took place on the recommendations of the Central Bank Report and we got what amounted to a repudiation of that report from the Tánaiste. I indicated then that I had some doubts as to the validity of that repudiation. Let us examine now what the Central Bank recommended in its report.

It recommended, first of all, the curtailment of credits. We have had that. It cannot be denied that credit has been curtailed. At every general meeting of the banks and at every meeting of bank directors the advice of the Central Bank in that respect has been repeated in parrot-like fashion.

The Central Bank advised the reduction of capital development and of public works. We have had that. Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll—I suppose to justify his support of the present Government—said that he was glad that there was going to be an increase in capital development schemes this year; he was glad that the Government visualised larger capital development this year than there was last year. Does any Deputy believe that in view of what has just happened? Does any Deputy believe, in the light of the speech made by the Minister for Finance, that there will be capital development this year?

The Central Bank Report emphasised the need for a reduction in the real wages and earnings of the people. We have that now, because the Minister for Finance has given on more than one occasion as one of his reasons for the removal of subsidies, the argument that wages and earnings had increased disproportionately in relation to the cost of living since 1938. The logical conclusion from that argument is that the value of real wages and earnings should be reduced, and one of the ways of reducing the value of real wages and earnings is by doing away with subsidies.

The Central Bank Report advocated a curtailment of public works because of "the unusually favourable condition of employment". Remember, 50,000 people were unemployed at the time. The aim was to curtail public works in order to increase the number of unemployed. That is a policy solemnly recommended to this Government, and that is a policy that this Government has accepted. Now we have the results. We have 12,000 more unemployed to-day than we had at the same period last year. Yesterday I asked a question in relation to the number of travel permits and passports issued to persons seeking employment in England for the months of February and March last; they show an increase of 80 per cent. over February and March of last year. Let the Taoiseach argue about the trisection of an angle. Let him argue about men sheltering under trees in inclement weather. These are statistics compiled by his own office, and they show an 80 per cent. increase in the number of travel permits and passports issued to persons seeking employment abroad in the last two months.

(Interruptions.)
We had 80 per cent. less seeking employment abroad this time last year. In the previous five months the figure showed a 60 per cent. to 65 per cent. increase on the equivalent five months in the previous year. Did we hear one reference from the Minister for Finance or the Taoiseach to either unemployment or emigration? They received advice from the Central Bank that steps should be taken, in effect, to increase unemployment. Of course, any increase in unemployment must inevitably result in increased emigration. I think the time has come when we will have to take a more definite attitude in regard to this policy. I have no hesitation in saying that anybody who advocates a policy calculated to increase unemployment and calculated to lead to emigration is advocating a policy which is treacherous to the interests of this nation.

We know the results of your tillage policy which drove the people off the land.

Judge it by the results. We know the results of your policy and of the implementation of the Central Bank Report, and so do the 12,000 people who are walking on the streets of Dublin and of other towns in the country unemployed, and so do the 80 per cent. more who had to emigrate.

Quote the emigration figures during the period of the Coalition Government.

I have them for this Government for the last seven months. The figures are there supplied by the Government. Yesterday, I asked some questions in regard to the removal of restrictions on travel to Britain. Immediately, the two Ministers involved—the Minister for External Affairs and the Minister for Justice— jumped on the defensive fence and wanted to start a counter-attack. Was I suggesting that the restrictions should be reimposed?

I would like to know what the policy of the Government is going to be in regard to emigration. The Government were enraged a few months ago when I complained of the fact that recruiting agents for British firms were attending the labour exchanges in the country. We were then given, as one of the reasons for that, the explanation that it was really in order to ensure that anybody who was not entitled to emigrate would not be given a permit and to ensure that those who did emigrate would emigrate to reputable firms. Is this arrangement to continue? The reasons given relating to permits have ceased to exist now.

I would like to draw the attention of the House to the advice which the Central Bank gave to the Government in regard to subsidies. At page 14 of their report they deal with subsidies.

"Subsidies are not only a heavy burden on the Budget, but also constitute a disguised addition to purchasing power, as the money saved through getting the subsidised article at a reduced price is set free for other expenditure.... The effect of a subsidy may, of course, be modified to some extent by an associated system of rationing and some of the disadvantages of a subsidy may be obviated by a more severe ration scheme. Reduction or removal of subsidies would, however, bring several advantages in relieving the Budget and allaying inflation and remedying a distorting influence in the price structure.

It is true that the removal of subsidies may tend somewhat to increase the cost of living, but some inconvenience in this respect must be weighed against the compensating gains, including a reduction in consumption."

That is their policy: the removal of subsidies, not so much to save money to the Exchequer as to reduce consumption. That is the policy of the Central Bank and that is the policy of the Minister for Finance—remove subsidies because wages and earnings have increased at a greater rate than the cost of living. In other words, reduce the value of real wages and earnings; in other words, reduce consumption by the people. It is not so much as a measure of economy that subsidies are being removed. They have been removed for the purpose of reducing the value of real wages and earnings and for the purpose of reducing consumption. Any economist, anybody who has examined the position, will know that that is the reason. It is candidly stated in this report, and it is candidly stated also by the Minister for Finance on more than one occasion in his Budget statement.

Now, as to additional taxation, the Central Bank Report gives this advice:

"There is scope also for fiscal measures to curb inflation, balance the Budget and restrict improvident spending."

I would ask Deputies to mark the next sentence:—

"It would be well that they should have a bias—that is, additional taxation—towards taxing personal expenditure rather than earnings..."

Impose additional taxation, again for the purpose, among others, of reducing consumption, but impose that additional taxation by way of indirect taxes rather than upon earnings. That is the advice which was given by the Central Bank. That is the advice which was accepted by the Government and that is the advice which is now being implemented by the Government in this House. The report, on page 15, says:—

"In view of the situation described in paragraph (13) above the present levels of income and consumption are excessive in relation to other facts of the economy and, therefore, require adjustment if progressive deterioration of the value of money is to be avoided."

"Progressive deterioration of the value of money" can be safeguarded by these means. Does any Deputy think that this Budget, or this House, can control the value of money in present world conditions? But that is the advice given and that is the advice which, apparently, is being accepted by the Government.

The Taoiseach appealed to the House yesterday to accept the figures given by the Department of Finance. I make no apology for stating that I regard every single figure issuing from the Department of Finance with the utmost suspicion. I am quite prepared to accept figures supplied by the Central Statistics Office. I am not prepared to accept figures supplied by the Department of Finance. I found, as a member of the last Government, that I could not rely on the estimates and calculations made by the Department of Finance, and I do not accept them now.

That is a very serious charge.

That is a very serious charge against the officials.

The Deputy is revolting in his attitude.

And I am now going to substantiate that. In October, 1951, a White Paper, prepared by the Minister for Finance, was submitted to this House by the Minister for Finance. The purpose of the White Paper was to give an estimate of the balance of payments at the end of the year. I would like to read the penultimate paragraph, paragraph 30, of that White Paper:—

"The forecast of the deficit in the balance of payments in 1951 is based on favourable assumptions——"

In other words, we have only used favourable assumptions—

"Full account has been taken of the normal seasonal increase in both the volume and price of exports in the latter months of the year. Assuming an uninterrupted flow of imports, the deficit in the balance of payments is likely, therefore, to be in the region of £70,000,000."

We know that it is £61,000,000— £9,000,000 out. At that time, I asked the Government to have that White Paper checked by the Central Statistics Office.

It is only an estimate.

Yes, but an estimate upon which this House was being asked to frame policy.

It makes no difference in that particular case whatever.

Why then did the Government publish a White Paper? Why was it compiled and published? Why was it not compiled and checked by the Central Statistics Office? We have the Central Statistics Office for that purpose and, as I indicated before, I am prepared to accept any estimates prepared by them. I am not prepared to accept estimates by the Department of Finance in matters of that kind.

That is highly dangerous and likely to have serious repercussions.

I am very sorry that this should be so, but the people who are responsible are the people who are trying to impose a certain financial policy on this country.

The Deputy is trying to sabotage the country. It is revolting.

Why then do the Department of Finance issue tendentious documents of this kind?

The Deputy is aware that the Minister for Finance is responsible for that.

Undoubtedly, the Minister for Finance is responsible and should not issue White Papers of this kind.

It was on that that Deputy Childers' various speeches in the country were based.

That document is out in its assessment by £9,000,000. That does not count! The Tánaiste told us the other day that there might be an error of 5 or even 10 per cent. in the Budget.

He said nothing of the sort.

The Minister knows exactly what he did say because he has wilted several times under it since.

He said nothing of the sort.

I will get the quotation.

He said "one way or the other"——

All right. Is not a mistake of 5 to 10 per cent. "one way or the other" a serious one?

——over hundreds of items. Wait now, the matter cannot be all the one way.

The Minister himself read his Budget statement to the House containing mistakes in figures.

No, an omission.

We were interested to watch how the matter was handled by the Taoiseach and the Minister in this House. The Taoiseach took up the attitude that a mistake had been made. There was prompting from the Minister, and the Minister said that just a line had been dropped from the typescript. He whispered that to the Taoiseach.

The answer was fully given to the Deputy the day before.

I wonder would the Minister for Finance be good enough to show me the line dropped out in the typescript.

The Deputy got his reply.

The Minister was supplied with the wrong set of figures. I do not suggest for one second that the Minister made up the figures— falsified figures himself. I do not suggest that his officials falsified figures, but the fact remains that wrong figures were given in what is the most important financial statement of the year.

A moment ago the Deputy suggested that the figures from the Department of Finance were not reliable.

They are not and I am giving proof of it—proof to this House that we got wrong figures on the most important financial statement of the year. These are mistakes which should not happen.

In the matter of statistics, estimates or calculations that might be required, I think there would be a great deal more confidence if these were submitted to and checked by the Central Statistics Office, who are trained in these matters. I agree entirely with the Taoiseach, who pointed out yesterday that many mistakes could be made in the preparation of and in making deductions from statistical data. I agree that it requires an expert to do it. I agree that statistics can be utilised one way or another to back up a case. I think, therefore, that the matter should be left, in the main, to the Central Statistics Office, which comprises trained statisticians who know the weight that can be given to statistics. We have had a couple of recent experiences which do not enhance our confidence in the statistics supplied by the Department of Finance.

There is another aspect of this Budget which has been dealt with by a number of Deputies. There is always a danger that by repeating a thing it ceases to carry as much weight as it would otherwise have, but I feel, all the same, it involves certain questions which cannot be treated lightly. The Taoiseach said several times yesterday that one of the dangers of a democracy lay in the fact that various financial commitments might be entered into in order to seek the favour of the electorate.

I think there is nobody in this House but will agree with that statement. It is one of the dangers of democracy. It is a danger that every responsible Deputy will bear in mind. It is a danger which I hope the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and their colleagues will bear in mind when next they have to face the electorate.

The Taoiseach very seldom commits himself in the course of his political speeches or of his election speeches. He did, however, commit himself in some respects at the time of the last general election. On the eve of the last general election he, as usual, held a mass meeting in O'Connell Street, outside the General Post Office, and his speech was fully reported in the Irish Press of the 30th May. He complained at length of the misrepresentation which was being conducted against his Party in the general election. He said it was being suggested that social services might be cut down if Fianna Fáil were returned to office. We know what happened with regard to that. Then he went on:—

"They will only talk of the pint, but I would remind you that we brought down the price of tea from 4/10 to 2/8 per lb., the price of flour down to 1/- a stone or £1 per sack, and the price of the 4 lb. loaf from 1/1½ down to 1/-."

Then there is "applause" in brackets. Of course there was great cheering in O'Connell Street that night. He was the man who brought down the price of flour, the price of tea and the price of sugar:—

"We brought down the price of sugar from 6d. to 4d. per lb. Butter was subsidised and so also was fuel."

True, he did not say: "We guarantee not to remove these subsidies," but surely he was playing a confidence trick on the electorate in dealing with subsidies in that way if at that time it was his intention to do away with them.

The Fianna Fáil Party and the Taoiseach went a bit further when they issued their 17-point programme. We were told by the Irish Press on the 5th June last that Mr. de Valera met the available members of the Fianna Fáil Executive to consider the situation and decide on a programme. The programme is an interesting one in the light of subsequent developments. We were told that one of the points was the extension of afforestation activities to bring the maximum area of suitable land under plantation and to put into effect a secondary forestry policy on land which would be regarded as unplantable with a view to its reclamation for the growth of commercial timber. Deputies have not failed to remember that the axe of the Minister for Finance has fallen on the Forestry Department. Their Estimates have been cut by £250,000.

The area of afforestation will be increased by several thousand acres.

Deputy Cogan is not yet a responsible Minister in this House——

Deputy MacBride never was.

——and may not be in the future. I do not see how the forestry programme can be extended if, at the same time, the money made available to the Department involved is cut by £250,000. We were told by some Minister or one of his satellites that the cut was in the stockpiling of barbed wire. Of course, that does not bear examination because when you examine the details of the cuts you find that many of them are in respect of labour. That means that people who hitherto have been employed on forestry will not be employed on forestry this year.

The number of workers will be increased.

They will not be increased if the amount made available for paying them is decreased, because in normal circumstances an Estimate of this kind should have shown a fairly substantial increase this year, having regard to the higher rate of wages which will be payable this year. Then we come to point 15 of the programme —that it is the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party to maintain subsidies and to control the prices of essential foodstuffs. As I said before, there are a number of occasions upon which. I suppose, politicians and public men are inclined to make promises which they may find difficult to implement at a later period. I suppose that is undesirable but it is inevitable. Probably most Deputies have at various times in election speeches made declarations of policy which they found themselves unable to implement later on, but there is a limit to which no Deputy should go. When it comes to the question of giving a definite undertaking of that kind, I think it is a clear breach of faith with the people.

I should like to make it quite clear that every factor relating to the economy of this country was well within the knowledge of the present Government before the change of Government took place. All the Estimates, all the accounts, all the returns upon which the policy of the present Government will be based were already available before the Government took office and before the last general election. There is no element of surprise involved. Therefore the suggestion that promises which were then made are not capable of being fulfilled is not an honest explanation of what took place, because every single factor relating to the economy of the country was at that time within the knowledge of the present Government while they were in opposition.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-day.
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