Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 May 1952

Vol. 131 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 39—Office of the Minister for Education (Resumed).

Mr. Butler

Much has been said in the debate this year and in past years on the subject of dialects. Dialects vary as much in England as they do in Ireland. The dialects in the English language in England vary just as much, possibly more, than do the dialects in Irish here. They vary, I think, much more in pronunciation and even in the particular words used. But there is this difference, that speakers of the various dialects in Britain will understand a speaker of standard English in England. It was a little bit disturbing to me to hear a native-speaking Deputy confess that he did not understand some of the matter from the Minister's opening speech. It all points to the necessity for establishing a literary standard in Irish that would be applicable to the whole country.

Again, I do not think we will make very great progress until we have uniform spelling throughout the country in Irish. I know it is a thorny question, and it would be very hard to find agreement on that spelling, but until it is done and until our textbooks have standard spelling in them and are circulated through the whole country, we will not have that progress in Irish which we all hope for. After all, if an Englishman can read at all, no matter what his dialect may be, he will understand the ordinary journals, newspapers, racing news, athletic news and so on, published in various journals and newspapers. That cannot be said for those who leave our schools at the end of their course. Very often in the same school you have in one class teaching Irish a native speaker, we will say, from Donegal; in another class a native speaker from the West; in another class a native speaker from Cork or Kerry; and I assure you it is a great mix-up for the poor children who pass through such a school. I believe it is absolutely necessary to set a literary standard and, above all, to have a standard spelling.

If such standards were established it would be much easier for children in the various districts. If children in a particular Gaeltacht did not understand certain words it would become necessary to explain what they meant and they would gain in that way a good standard vocabulary.

A good deal of what I say with regard to Irish applies to English. We should have a standard set of textbooks in our schools. There should not be that constant chopping and changing that we are having in the schools. When boys finish school and go out into life they should be able to look back and visualise the set of books. That was possible in the old days when the old Board of Education was in command. There is no doubt that the children who had attended throughout the various standards and left after completing the full primary course were able to enjoy an ordinary story, read an ordinary novel, read the newspapers, and so on. That is scarcely the case to-day, and I think that the want of a standard set of texts and, above all, standard spelling in Irish, is largely responsible for that.

Over a number of years I feel the Department made a mistake in trying to teach the Irish language outside the Gaeltacht as if it were a living language. In 99 per cent. of the Dublin households and of the households throughout the country outside the Gaeltacht areas, Irish is not the language of the home. It would not be quite true but it would be nearly true to say that it is as dead a language in this country as French or German. Still, for a number of years we had the teachers encouraged to speak Irish all the time, if possible, to teach as many subjects as possible in Irish, and I am afraid the result was very bad.

We have got away from that policy now but when it was in operation a great deal of harm was done. In those years the emphasis was put too much on the oral side and the result was that the children left school unable to handle an ordinary school textbook, to enjoy a novel, to read the Irish news written in Irish or any other news written in Irish. If we had standard textbooks, if outside the Gaeltacht Irish were more canalised for the matter contained in those textbooks, and if you had a set of books dealing with the main aspects of town and country life and had a vocabulary built up, by the time a boy would have finished his primary course he would be able to face an ordinary story-book or novel, read ordinary news provided, of course, it was written in the spelling that he had learnt in school. That is not the case. I do not believe it ever will be the case until we have a uniform set of textbooks.

I believe that for English also we should have uniform textbooks so as not be chopping and changing year after year. It very often happens that a boy has to spend two years in the one class. Would it not be much better for him to have the same textbook for the second year? If he is kept back for a second year, he must be either dull or have a bad attendance record. He would profit far more by going over the same textbook a second time.

If we had a uniform set of textbooks for Irish, a boy who would finish the whole primary course would be very well equipped with a good and useful Irish vocabulary for dealing with ordinary matters. When a boy leaves a primary school outside the Gaeltacht he goes to a family where Irish is not spoken. His friends and his fellow workers do not speak Irish. Is it any wonder that that boy or young man loses his Irish? I hold that he could keep that knowledge alive if he had gone through a course covering the various aspects of city and town life in standard Irish. I know it is a difficult thing to solve because it is extraordinary how bigoted, if you like to use the word, the speakers in the various Gaeltacht areas are with regard to the Irish in other places.

Tributes have been paid to the officials in the Education Department and I should like to add my tribute. I suppose that during my time I have dealt with dozens and dozens of inspectors. I found nearly all of them excellent. I had the feeling that they were working for the betterment of education. There were possibly two exceptions out of a great number, but it is true that the exception proves the rule. Apart from the inspectorial staff, we invariably were treated with courtesy and consideration in the Department itself, and I am very glad to pay my tribute to the courtesy and consideration we always received.

Mr. S. Collins

The primary reason for my intervention in this debate is that I feel the time has come for a rather comprehensive analysis of our general approach to education. I have heard contributions from teachers and from people with a deep-seated interest in education all varying in their approach to the multiple problems, whether the problem of the Irish language or what the school curriculum should be. I want to put the question fairly to the House for consideration whether we are not building a completely unwieldy educational system in the country. In the main, it is a distinct carry-over. We must ask ourselves the question whether in a very small country such as ours, particularly when we are facing dwindling rural populations and falling school averages, we are not a little bit overambitious in having a system that allows for at least three, possibly more, hierarchies of teachers. We have as separate entities the national teachers, the secondary teachers, about whom I shall have a lot to say later on in regard to question of salary, and the vocational teachers. Is it not time we asked ourselves the rational question whether it is not possible to integrate the three, particularly when dealing with the problem of rural education?

Pleas are being made for technical schools of various types. It is true that an extended type of vocational education is necessary for the big centres of population. But has anybody asked himself the fundamental question: what is the basic amount of vocational training required by the average rural student, whether male or female, to give him or her a substantial preparation for an avocation within a rural existence? We hear of the tremendous work that is being done by technical schools with their varied and enlarged curricula, but to my mind the problem that the Minister or some of his successors will have to face is the finding of a solution whereby he can get a reasonable vocational education system integrated with the national school system.

If we are practical, we must face the fact that the vast majority of the people of this country do not go beyond the national school and get no higher educational certificate than the primary school-leaving certificate. The opportunities afforded to people to continue their education, even by way of technical training, are very limited.

We must admit that boys attending the national school in a rural district would benefit greatly from a rudimentary knowledge of rural science and husbandry. The ordinary young girl attending a national school in a rural district is a potential farmer's wife and a potential housekeeper, and for her a knowledge of the rudiments of cooking and of the dietetic value of various types of vegetables would be a great help. To my mind, it should not be an insurmountable difficulty to corelate the teaching of these subjects with the national school curriculum and it would give a reasonably useful education to the student attending a rural national school. It would go a long way towards arresting, at one of its sources, the flight from rural Ireland. Much of the labour and drudgery incidental to Irish farming to-day can, I believe, be removed entirely or ameliorated by a knowledge of better and improved methods of farming. I do not think that the place to impart that knowledge initially is in the agricultural colleges or the universities. I believe that we must find a system at the national school level to enable that education to be given.

I do not consider that this country is big enough for the division of our education into groups—the national school, the secondary school, the vocational school and, subsequently, the university. I believe the time has come for exploration on the basis of conceiving a system of education that would be of benefit to our own peculiar requirements and that the time has well passed for imitation of any other system. I heard Deputy Giles talk of building an extra room to our national schools for the purpose of certain technical and vocational training. I believe we must start by equipping the trained teacher to impart the rudiments of those subjects which, in our judgment, we consider to be of value in our own circumstances. When we have achieved as competent a system as possible for the training of the young minds in our country, we might find the wherewithal to give the teacher a salary worthy of his occupation. I am not one of those who begrudge the teacher a decent salary or a decent standard of life. With the parents, teachers are responsible for training the minds of the young of this country and I believe that teachers should be treated on a par with that responsibility. The more a teacher is respected the more he will respect himself and, as a deliberate consequence, the more respect he will merit in a community which, only now, is beginning to accord a reasonable amount of the respect which the teaching profession deserves.

Tremendous work is being done by national teachers throughout the country. In view of the fact that the vast majority of the people of this country have not an opportunity of going beyond the national school, I feel that the Department of Education should turn its mind to the matter of domestic economy training for girls and a rudimentary training in rural science for boys who attend national schools in rural areas.

I come now to the matter of secondary teachers. Is it possible to expedite whatever award these teachers are entitled to, or can the Minister devise some system of giving an interim grant or a rise to these people who are suffering from a considerable amount of financial strain, and who are awaiting with impatience the award which will ultimately be given to them? Part of the pay problem of the teachers has been solved: the remaining part is not very considerable.

I was interested to hear Deputy Seán Flanagan on the question of pensioned teachers. He approached the matter in a very frank way, though I do not agree with the argument which he adduced. For the small amount of money which is involved, and in view of the fact that it is a diminishing charge on the Exchequer, I urge the Minister to endeavour to meet the demands of these people, and to be as elastic as he possibly can in respect of the fixing of the date. The Minister knows as well as I do, and as well as any teacher listening to me now knows, that the burden of the complaint of the pensioned teacher rests fundamentally on the gratuity problem. It would be only one real payment, and it would mean the removal of a constant source of irritation, not only to himself but to all the Deputies of this House who feel that in many cases the pensions on which these teachers are now trying to exist are not a dole, as Deputy Butler said, but merely an existence pittance. I realise that it is easy for us who are in opposition to make that claim. However, I make that claim now as I made it when I supported the inter-Party Government in the honest belief that these people's grievance should be satisfied. I have made that appeal in other circumstances in relation to other sections of the community. Where it is a non-recurring charge, and where it is a tribute that this House might pay to people who have given immense service to this country, I feel we should strain ourselves a little in order to ensure that our appreciation of their effort will be translated into concrete reality. We should not fail to appreciate the contribution which many of our retired teachers made to the development of this country.

The Minister can be a very positive, a very forthright and a very assertive type of man when he gets the bit between his teeth. I ask him to take it between his teeth now and to make a fight for the £80,000 or £90,000 that will be involved to settle that problem once and for all.

Peadar Ó Duighneáin

Céard dúirt Fine Gael faoi sin?

Mr. S. Collins

The Deputy is not very long in this House to know my views on this matter.

Peadar Ó Duighneáin

Céard dúirt siad faoi sin?

Mr. S. Collins

I can only half-hear the Deputy. I am not being rude when I say that. I am giving expression to the same opinions that I expressed here for four successive years and I am not afraid to give expression to these opinions from the Front Bench of Fine Gael. I do not care which Government goes out, and I am quite certain the retired teachers do not give a fiddle-de-dee which Government goes out either.

Peadar Ó Duighneáin

Ná fág orainn é.

Mr. S. Collins

Deputy Ó Duighneáin might serve his purpose infinitely better if he refrained from futile interjections which are not conducive to elevation of the standard of thought or debate or, indeed, conducive to improved decorum in the House. Not even Deputy Ó Duighneáin is going to stop me from advancing an argument in which I have a personal and sincere belief. I have made this claim fearlessly and asserted it from both sides of the House. I hope that when Deputy Ó Duighneáin finds himself on this side of the House he will have the courage to be as assertive as he is over there.

I want to say that tributes to ex-teachers by members of the House are completely idle unless they are accompanied by a sincere effort, on the part of the individuals paying them, to advance the cause of these ex-teachers in some way. It may well be that I shall never see their claims satisfied, but one thing certain is that, as long as I am a member of this House, I shall never do anything to prevent their satisfaction. I hope, when the hour of reckoning comes, that that can be said of all of us who are interested in the problem. I do not think that, in a situation where millions of pounds are being raised for this, that and the other thing, and where a Minister can nonchalantly cast aside a revenue of £140,000, which was being received from the dancing tax, we are entitled to deny the claims of the unfortunate pensioned ex-teachers.

As I believe the whole range of education is being dealt with on this Estimate, I want to diverge slightly from the national schools and secondary schools to the vocational schools and, possibly, subsequently to phases of university education. I think that the technical school has filled a tremendous want. In highly populated areas it is of immense benefit to the type of boy who, anxious to further himself in life, does his day's work and then tries to improve the quality of his work and the knowledge that is the basis of his work by presenting himself for instruction at the technical school in the evening. I think I am justified in saying to the Minister that there is not, at the moment, particularly in the City of Dublin, adequate facilities for that type of boy. The classes, through no fault of the teachers, are becoming too big, and the accommodation in many schools is becoming inadequate.

I direct the Minister's attention to that because I feel that he, as one appreciative of the efforts of the boy who wants to improve not only his own standard of life and his own capacity but also to play his part in uplifting his family generally, will see that every opportunity is given to that type of boy. I would ask him to have investigations made with a view to supplying the wants that have arisen, particularly in the Dublin area. To attain that high standard of development to which an ambitious boy of character who believes in himself can rise is a wonderful achievement for both student and teacher. I think that any demands made on the Minister's Department for improved equipment or for extra or special instructors should be met immediately because I have the honest belief that the type of boy who is prepared to work during the day, and to work hard and patiently at night, to ameliorate his own lot deserves the best that any Minister or any Department can give him.

It is true that for a time this growth in technical education had been viewed with a typical Irish conservatism. For a time the technical schools were looked at a bit askance, but that period of growing pains is over and now, in ever increasing numbers, more boys and girls are seeking all the advantages the technical education can offer to them. I have already said that technical education in its broadest and widest sense will necessarily be concentrated in the large centres of population. I would ask the Minister, where complaints arise, to ensure as quickly as possible the supply of absolutely adequate facilities.

I wondered and I still wonder, in relation to the Young Farmers' Clubs throughout the country, whether there is not something of educational potential there. I wonder if the Minister could find any use in his Department for the number of young men who have spent many months of investigation into various types of exploratory work in America. It seems rather queer to me that since these boys were selected out of a tremendous number of contestants by Macra na Feirme to provide an exchange of views, ideas and experience and to enter in a deliberate way into another system of agriculture, whatever experience and knowledge they have acquired cannot be in some way used for the benefit of rural communities. I think they might present a pool of instructors of a certain type that might appeal to the Minister for use in some scheme of a lecture a week or a lecture a fortnight for farmers around the country.

I feel that we are inclined to build our educational system not on the needs of our people but rather on systems that we have known or a system that we have adopted and carried on and gradually made our own. We have had 30 years of self-government. A tremendous amount of work has been done by the Department of Education and we have had very many brilliant men holding the seat the Minister now occupies. I think I can say in fairness to the Minister that as sane a man as ever took the seat we have in the Minister himself. I must comment favourably on the forthright manner in which he came to grips with one of the worst problems we have in rural Ireland to-day and in the national schools system, the constantly occurring eyesores of semi-decadent national schools. I admire—and I say so freely —the assertive and aggressive type of attack on that problem that the Minister has launched. I have always admired the Minister's forthrightness. I think he is, in this particular problem, taking the line that I would like him to take with regard to some other problems in education. It is a serious problem. It is one that is militating against the best interests of everybody. The parents are not happy to send children to bad schools; the teachers are terribly unhappy teaching in them; and the atmosphere is certainly, in those circumstances, not the best possible one for educational purposes. I wish him luck in that problem. If he can put a bit of speed into the Board of Works he is one of the best men that I know of. In the main, our problems with regard to schools in the country have been met reasonably by the Department of Education and they have had to wander through the devious ways that finance can make in the Board of Works.

I would like the Minister, in reply, to deal with the general problem as to when we are likely to have this new university that we envisage in Dublin, and when we are likely to put university education on a different basis. I am not going to weary the House on that subject. I spoke at length and gave my considered point of view when we were dealing with the Supplementary Estimates for the universities. I would like to know if progress is being made towards the drawing up at least of the sketch plan of the new residential university we have in mind.

Taking the broad field of education generally, I think we in this House can accord tremendous credit to the Department of Education. There are many facets of education that need more close analysis. I wonder whether the time has not arrived for a comprehensive investigation into our fundamental educational needs. I wonder whether the time has not come to stop the growth of what I describe as the cram system. We have too many schools too interested in results to be good educators, and we have too many children, boys and girls, concentrating with all their energy on success in examination B or C to have any real education at the end of it. I wonder whether the time has not come for a revision of the system with regard to the various types of grants. We know that there are large schools—I have had experience of a number of very large Christian Brothers' schools and colleges—where you have segregation of selected pupils, where you have tremendous attention and extra time devoted to the potential scholarship winner, to the potential good result getter, whereas the students not so fortunate find that, while there is no neglect, at least there is little enthusiasm. I think that is a problem that must be faced. We are getting too many people turned out, educated maybe to the extent of passing certain types of examinations, be they clerkships for this or that, or be they for the minor grades of the Civil Service——

Major de Valera

What would the Deputy substitute for the examinations?

Mr. S. Collins

—— and at the finish the person gives a sigh of relief that he has been in the first 70 or 80 and then, through no fault of his own, he forgets in the main something that has been put in too quickly and possibly in the new order of things develops on different lines. I have been put a question by Deputy Vivion de Valera, and I would attempt to answer it.

Major de Valera

Is not that the real difficulty?

Mr. S. Collins

The substitute that will have to be offered is that some means other than purely examinations will have to be found for selecting the candidates. We know that by examinations alone you will not get the best type of person. What the alternative effectively could be I frankly do not know, but I think that the Department of Education, with its particular background and its knowledge, having been postulated the question, might be able to find an infinitely better solution than I can. I am directing, as I feel it is my duty to direct, the attention of the Minister and his Department to a weakness in the present system. I do so, not in any spirit of criticism but in a spirit of inquiry in the hope that we may be able to find some effective solution to the problem. I have had experience of the system. I got the tar knocked out of me by the Christian Brothers when working for examinations. There must be a solution to the problem somewhere.

I wish the Minister luck in his job. On any occasion when I have made reasonable representations to him in relation to the problems of my constituents, such as the transport of school children, school attendance and matters relating to the Gaeltacht district of my constituency he has always met me in a very reasonable way.

I believe that something has gone radically wrong in recent times in connection with the revival of Irish. I do not know whether or not the present situation is due to an absence of that voluntary effort and spirit of enthusiasm that once existed. Indeed, I have a word of condemnation for myself in this respect. I often wonder why it is that an individual like myself, who was once able to think and speak fluently in the Irish language, now finds himself rather hesitant and busy trying to translate through thinking solely in English.

Peadar Ó Duighneáin

Ta tú ag caint anois!

Mr. S. Collins

I shall not be uncharitable to the Deputy. Where does the solution of our present difficulty lie? The blame cannot be laid upon the teachers. Indeed, I am sure that the blame is our own. There are too many of us—and again I go back to the cramming system—who learned a bit too much too quickly and forgot it far too easily. I feel that the solution to aithbheochaint na Ghaeilge lies in the reawakening of the people's enthusiasm. We must have voluntary co-operation together with a regeneration of the fierce pride that once existed in reviving our language coupled with the fierce urge for freedom. I think that is the only hope of providing a lead towards a revival of the language. I feel we do not use the language often enough here. Even if we falter or become stuck for a word, we should nevertheless make the effort.

Mar bhuille scoir i nGaeilge, is mian liom a rá leis an Aire go mbeidh mé i gcónaí ar thaobh aithbheochaint na Gaeilge agus go ndéanfaidh mé a bhfuil ar mo chumas chun cabhrú léi.

Mrs. Rice

On previous occasions here I have tried to convince the Minister of the absolute necessity for appointing a caretaker to look after the heating and cleaning of our primary schools in the rural areas. In the Book of Estimates this year a sum of £63,000 is provided for that purpose. The amount provided last year was also £63,000. Those who are connected with the schools say that this sum is totally inadequate. The Minister believes that the care of the schools should rest in the hands of the people themselves. He is reluctant to have complete State control of the schools and believes that such a control should be left to the managers and the people concerned. Perhaps the Minister is right in that attitude. Perhaps too much State control is a bad thing. Since he is determined to continue on the present course and since there is as yet no other alternative, what will be done?

Seemingly it is now up to the people themselves to find some method of supplementing this Estimate of £63,000 in order to provide a caretaker, or some person other than children, to look after the heating and the cleaning of the schools. It is very unhealthy to have the youngsters cleaning the school premises after school hours. We all know the quantity of dust that accumulates in these establishments and how injurious that is to the health of the children who are required to spend a couple of extra hours cleaning up the premises.

Since the Government and the Minister will not increase the amount of money, it is now up to the people in charge of the schools and those concerned with them to come to the rescue. I would suggest a local committee of the parents working in conjunction with the manager which would raise the sum necessary to appoint a caretaker and thereby end this shocking system of expecting the children to clean the schools.

When one considers the numbers of young nuns and priests who leave this country and found schools successfully in pagan lands without any State assistance, one wonders whether those of us who remain at home have any courage left at all to face up to our responsibilities. I am afraid we are losing some of our pride in our country. Now that the Minister is determined not to take over complete control of the schools, the people will have to do something about the present situation. I do not believe an appeal was ever made to the Irish people to which there was not a ready response, and if such an appeal is made now in this connection, I am sure they will respond in the same way as they do to appeals for our churches. Some appeal will have to be made to them to induce them to supplement the amount allocated by the Minister in order to pay for a caretaker in schools in rural areas. I do not think the services of such a person would be very costly.

A good deal has been said about the revival of Irish. When we were young we were all very enthusiastic about the language, and I sometimes wonder why it is that, nowadays, with all the facilities that have been made available by successive Governments, everybody is not an Irish speaker. I believe the parents are to blame for the present situation. There are parents who seem to think that the learning of Irish is a punishment inflicted on their children, and one will even hear people saying that Irish is being forced down the throats of the children.

I think the teachers will agree that the children have no difficulty in learning the language. It is about the easiest subject on the school programme which they can take up. In my opinion, if the children were encouraged in their own homes by their fathers, and especially by their mothers, to love the language and to respect it they would do so. They should not be discouraged by their parents, even though they are not Irish speakers themselves. They should give every encouragement to the children to love the language, to respect it and to be proud of it, and to be proud, too, of the reputation of our country for culture and for learning generally. If that is not the present position, then I think it is the fault of the home. From time to time we read letters from parents to the effect that their children are being harassed because they have to learn Irish. To me that is ridiculous, and until we get away from that type of shoneenism which, I am sorry to say, is as prevalent in Ireland to-day as it was in the days when the British were here, we will never make this an Irishspeaking country, nor can we say that we are proud of our country

I am sure there is no member of the House who would like it to be said of him that he was not courageous or proud of the native language. Yet, there are so many here who are ashamed to speak the Irish language although they know it. It is no credit to any young man or woman who has Irish to come to this House and say that they cannot speak Irish, think in Irish or say what they want to say in Irish, despite the fact that they were taught Irish in school. I think they should be ashamed to confess that.

We must look, therefore, to the young people who are now acquiring a knowledge of Irish at school to transmit a knowledge of it to their children when they become fathers and mothers. If they fail to do so they will be lacking in their duty to themselves, to their God and to their country. I trust that all this talk to the effect that the fault is due to the teachers for forcing the language on the children will cease. I firmly believe that the fault is due to the parents of the children. If they cannot encourage their children to speak Irish, well at least they should not discourage them from speaking it. That, I am afraid, is what many people are doing. Of course, we know some people say that if their children were to speak Irish it would spoil their accents. That is more of the shoneenism that we have to-day. I am afraid that I am repeating myself, so I shall pass on to another matter.

I want to make an appeal to the Minister in regard to women teachers who have to resign on marriage. I think that is a very bad rule and that it was a very unjust one to make in the case of the girls who were in training colleges at the time it was introduced. It certainly should not apply to them and they should be allowed to hold their schools on marriage. When they entered the training colleges in 1933 or 1934 they were not aware that this rule was about to be brought in. Therefore I do not think it is fair to penalise them and in all fairness it should be removed in their cases.

The Minister admitted in his introductory speech that there was a shortage of women teachers. In my opinion the operation of this rule is undoubtedly the cause of that. Who could better understand children than a married woman teacher who is rearing a family of her own? Before this rule was introduced we had many married teachers in this country, and it is universally agreed that they not only reared excellent families themselves but that they did the two jobs equally well. I hope the Minister will reconsider the operation of that rule and cancel it if at all possible.

My attention has been called to some subjects which many people believe ought to be taught in the rural schools. There is, for instance, nature study, a knowledge of plants and trees and an appreciation of the beauties of the countryside. To-day, the position is that many children in the rural areas do not know one tree from another. In the old days that was not so at all. The children in those days knew every tree that grew along the boreens, the lanes and the highways in their parish. Perhaps even one hour a week could be given for instruction to the children in such subjects as horticulture and vegetable growing. I do not mean instruction on agriculture on a big scale because that would not be possible in the time at the teacher's disposal. But at least one hour a week might be allotted for instruction such as I suggest. It would help to arouse their interest in the countryside and would be an encouragement to them to do something themselves in a small way as regards the growing of vegetables and flowers, thus helping to beautify their own homes. With these few remarks I hope that the Minister, with his big heart, will reconsider the Department's attitude towards the women teachers by allowing them to marry, if they get the chance, and of holding their schools at the same time.

Mr. Finan

What I have to say on this Estimate relates almost entirely to the subject of vocational education in rural areas or, perhaps, I should say to the lack of facilities for vocational education in the remote rural areas. I thoroughly agree with what Deputy Palmer said that, in those parts of the country, the children have no opportunity of availing of the vocational or technical training that is at the disposal of children in the urban areas. I appreciate the reason for that. I am sure it would mean a big financial undertaking to provide technical or vocational schools all over the country. I think that an opportunity presents itself now of overcoming that difficulty. It is a regrettable fact that in many of the rural national schools the attendance has fallen as compared with former years. As a result of that diminishing attendance, we have a vacant room at the present time in a great number of our national schools. I think there is hardly a county or a parish in which that is not the position. My suggestion is that the Department should avail of that accommodation to provide technical training in the rural areas, and see to it that itinerant teachers would utilise these rooms for that purpose. I think it was hardly fair that, from the beginning, all these vocational schools should have been erected in the towns. It would have been fairer, in my opinion, if they had been erected at the crossroads rather than in the main street of a town.

It has been lamented by many persons over a long number of years that our people are turning against life on the land, that they are leaving the land and going into the towns. I wonder if that could be traced to the fact that a number of these country boys and girls go into the vocational schools in the towns, witness there all the amenities of town life which are so sorely lacking in their home areas, and then become so discontented with their homes that they determine that at whatever cost they are not going to live their lives on the land. I think that explains, in some way or other, their present attitude to life in the country. That is an attitude which, I think, could be overcome in the manner that I have suggested. Furthermore, as a school building scheme is now being embarked upon, I suggest that accommodation should be provided in each new primary school for vocational education. In my own county, where it is contemplated to erect two or three new schools in areas where there are no facilities for vocational education, I think that the opportunity of doing what I suggest should not be missed. Such accommodation could be provided at a fairly inconsiderable cost.

I also think that vocational education could be extended by making use of the accommodation that is available in halls. In Roscommon, one enterprising parish priest, in the parish of Moore, erected a very fine hall. He made provision in it for an extra large room which he then offered at a nominal rent as accommodation for instruction in vocational education. The result has been that the people in that area who hitherto lived at a considerable distance from vocational schools are now getting a vocational training as good as that provided in any vocational school in the country. I know that at the present time there is a tendency to erect more and more halls throughout the country. The people erecting them should be approached, I suggest, to make accommodation available for the giving of vocational education. If that were done it would help to remove the disability which so many people in the country labour under at present in the way of being denied the opportunity of getting any vocational training whatever.

I sometimes wonder if we are getting mixed up in our terms with regard to vocational education. In my opinion, we would be more precise if we used the term technical education. If we really had vocational schools, as I understand the term, it would be the duty of the teachers to observe the natural bent of the pupils and to develop it. As it is, there is nothing of that type. There is merely a certain specified curriculum. Therefore, it is more precise to describe it as technical education.

Whether it is called technical education or vocational education, it is a form of education which has been sadly neglected in the past. Steps are being taken now to remedy the situation. No opportunity should be lost to expand this type of education to the utmost. In this country—indeed we are not alone in this respect— there is a terrible lack of ability on the part of boys and girls to use their hands. There has been a growing inclination to pursue occupations in which only the fountain pen need be used. Clerical jobs make a special appeal. That is not good. It should not be the object of vocational schools to prepare pupils for any particular career. Their object should be to impart a wide knowledge in the use of the hands to the best possible advantage. Manual instruction is bound to result in good citizenship and would help to make citizens worthy of the State, who would be of benefit to the State in some way. When I think along these lines I am always reminded of the German people. No matter what career a German boy may follow, no matter how he may be tossed about on the tide of life, he is always able to make a livelihood by his hands. If we could get our boys and girls instructed in that way we would ensure that none of them would be hewers of wood and drawers of water in a foreign land.

There is one matter in regard to vocational education on which the Department must come to a decision, as it is creating a certain amount of trouble and will create more trouble. I refer to schools on the borders of counties, schools erected in one county at which pupils from another county attend. There seems to be a development of a parochial mentality in regard to this important question. My view is that education is not parochial or national, but that it is international. There should be no limits to the provision of education in whatever way possible. We are in a dilemma in Roscommon at the present time. We have a big number of pupils attending Athlone school, and it has now been suggested that the Roscommon Vocational Education Committee should make a payment to the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee in respect of those pupils, while, on the other hand, we have in Ballaghaderreen and in Boyle schools to which many pupils come from Sligo and Leitrim, and we are not making any such demand. I want the Minister to know that his Department has shirked responsibility in this matter and has repeatedly referred this question back to the Westmeath Vocational Education Committee and to the Roscommon Vocational Education Committee. The Department should take a firm stand on that matter and give their decision. Representatives from Roscommon and Westmeath have met on former occasions, and we have even referred the matter to the congress, and no decision has yet been reached. I would ask the Minister to look into that matter and to try to have a definite ruling made in regard to it. It is not unique. It is a matter that is bound to crop up in every other area. A clear indication should be given that, whether pupils come from one county to another or not, it is the duty of the vocational education committee in the area to provide instruction for them in the ordinary way.

I want to make one remark about the question of the language revival. I am afraid that a colleague of mine, Deputy Cafferky, was misunderstood by certain Deputies. If I were a Gaelic enthusiast I would be very disappointed at the progress that has been made with regard to the revival of Irish. It is not fair to suggest, if a man complains that progress is not being made, that he is indifferent or antagonistic to the language. The contrary might be the case. If a man were not interested at all in the language he would probably ignore the question. Whether one is an enthusiast or an antagonist in the matter of the revival of Irish, one must admit that the progress that ought to be expected over a period of 30 years has not been achieved. If a Deputy gets up in this House and points to that fact, I do not think he should be accused of being opposed to the revival of the language or antagonistic to it in any way.

I listened to Deputy Mrs. Rice on the question of parents. She made a reference to shoneenism. As a parent, I want to say that perhaps she is judging the whole question from a wrong standpoint. Perhaps it is that parents feel embarrassed when their children come from school and want them to instruct them, and the parents are not able to do so.

Peadar Ó Duigneáin

Cad é an rud a dubhairt an Teachta Cafferky?

Mr. Finan

The Deputy will have to say it in the Béarla.

Mr. Duignan

Find out what Deputy Cafferky said. You can read it.

Mr. Finan

I have passed on from Deputy Cafferky now. I honestly believe that parents are not opposed to the revival of the language at all, but the children, when they come from school, expect the parents to teach them the language, and the parents do not know the language. It is definitely causing quite a lot of trouble, to put it mildly, at home. Children wish to know their lessons when they go to school. They do not want to be worse than their schoolfellows. Perhaps some parents can help their child at home while other parents cannot do so. If there is opposition in the Irish homes to the revival of the Irish language, it is not because of any dislike of the language as such, but for the reasons I have given. In the year 1952 I do not think we should use the word "shoneenism" in this country. Shoneenism is dead, and it will never live again.

Mr. Moylan

You would be surprised.

Major de Valera

My purpose in intervening in this debate at all is to mention a matter in connection with vocational education to the Minister but I find myself somewhat stimulated by some remarks that have been made, particularly by Deputy Collins, to wander rather farther afield. Before I do so I want to make the point which was in my mind when I came in.

As I understand the case, some time in July, 1948, the Vocational Education Teachers Organisation made some approach to the then Minister. There have been negotiations practically ever since then. The Minister's predecessor was approached and I understand there has been some approach to the present Minister. In the meantime the Civil Service arbitration awards applied equally to vocational education teachers but notwithstanding that fact these teachers find themselves at a certain disadvantage. According to the information available to me, with the exception of exceptional cases the maximum for male vocational teachers would be in the region of £615 per annum, from which 5 per cent. is deducted for pension, and their scales do not compare satisfactorily now with the scales for the teaching profession in its upper branches. I understand that the Minister's predecessor—this is my information and I must confess that it is hearsay, but the Minister can easily correct me if I am not accurate—took the view that the secondary teachers' problem would first have to be solved. I understand that some agreement was reached on the question of secondary teachers towards the end of last year under the present Minister, and, therefore, there seems to be a reasonable case prima facie for considering the position of these vocational teachers. Whether the Minister would consider it on the basis of something similar to what was done in the case of secondary teachers or not is a matter which would need to be looked into, but in any event the matter seems to have been rolling for a considerable time and it might, perhaps, be desirable to come to a determination with some speed now. Where it is possible to avoid it it is objectionable to have matters like this outstanding in an uncertain state.

Following on from that another question arises which, I understand, is of some practical importance in connection with vocational education. Instructors in certain categories are able to earn considerably more in the practice of the particular trade or subject which they are teaching than they can earn as teachers. It does not require a second thought to see where that leads us. If there is a big disparity between the salary one pays to an instructor or teacher in any particular subject and the amount he can earn otherwise, needless to say these people will move in the direction of higher remuneration. That means that the pool of really high quality instructors becomes contracted. That is what one might call an argument from an argument rather than a statement of fact but, on top of that, my information is that that is happening to some extent and, if it is, it is something which would have to be looked into.

The statement has been made to me —I accepted it with a certain amount of caution and I offer it here with an equal amount of caution; nevertheless if it is true, it is a serious matter— that it has been necessary to revise standards in looking for instructors. That, in itself, is an urgent reason why the question of remuneration should be reconsidered. The question we have to face is: what service can we give; what service can we pay for? There is always that financial problem in the background but, accepting that financial problem and having to face it, having to trim, as no doubt we will have to trim, our garment to the cloth available, it still should be done in such a way that it will ensure that such service as we can give will be of first-class quality rather than that an attempt should be made to provide something which will tend to give an indifferent service in greater quantity. I ask the Minister to expedite, if he can, a determination of this question.

Another point is that teachers in other categories can avail themselves of part-time facilities in vocational schools, thereby earning additional remuneration. There is nothing objectionable in that at all—at least I do not see it at the moment—but the point is that the whole-time vocational teacher has no such opportunities. If he is at a disadvantage in regard to comparative scales, he is at a further disadvantage in this matter also. I do not wish to repeat myself, but I ask the Minister to expedite the determination of the matter. There have been, and there will be, more detailed representations made to him, but a number of people interested have asked a number of Deputies not so much to do something as to find out what is happening, what the position is.

That, as I said earlier, was the main purpose for which I intervened, but Deputy Collins in his speech referred to education generally and one wonders, listening to the speeches one hears year after year, whether there is not a certain amount of escapism in them. First, we should realise that nothing is going to be perfect in life, that we are never going to hit the ideal system and that it is an easy way to escape from problems to concentrate exclusively on hypothetical situations. What we have to face is that we have an existing situation and we must ask ourselves what is the situation we think would be the best to have in the circumstances. If that is different from the existing situation, we have further to plan the transition stage, if we decide to go to the better situation.

That remark is pertinent with regard to the talk of Deputy Collins about examinations. I do not want to defend examinations as they are, and I do not want to be blinded by any means to the defects that are in a system which selects by means of examination. The examination order will not completely and truly represent the order of merit, but, on the other hand, can anybody suggest, having regard to the needs of the community and the nature of the animal concerned, if you like to put it that way, any rational workable alternative which will be fair, just, give equal opportunities and eliminate as far as possible personal preferences or influences? Can anyone suggest any other method for testing candidates as to their knowledge and suitability than some system of examination? Admittedly, it is a big improvement that we have had an oral examination or an interview, its equivalent, superimposed on the written examination. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to meet again.