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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 May 1952

Vol. 131 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1952—Second Stage (Resumed).

When I moved to report progress we were dealing with item No. 4 on the expenditure side of the table explanatory of the current Budget, 1952. The Minister described my approach towards that item as something savouring of misrepresentation if not of fraud. Anyone who had read item No. 4 would have come to the same conclusion as I did. Anyone who is accustomed to considering how financial matters are dealt with in documents knows how necessary it is to indicate the purpose for which a sum is required and for which taxation will become necessary. I have been accused of leaving out the words "and for other current services" which follow after the words: "Provision for proposals in Social Welfare (Insurance) Bill, 1951."

As I said, those words were there for anybody to read and everybody had those documents before him. I assumed that the words "and for other current services" had some reference to the words that were given before them "provision for proposals in Social Welfare (Insurance) Bill, 1951," and that the entire item No. 4 had reference to proposals for social welfare and matters in connection with social welfare that might occur during the year. I suppose it is not right in a document of this kind to approach this interpretation in too technical or legalistic a sense, but there is a principle of interpretation of documents which is summarised in the Latin phrase noscitur a sooiis. In other words, you construe words from the company in which they are found. The words “other current services” are found in the context and the company of “Provision for proposals in Social Welfare (Insurance) Bill, 1951,” and I think it would be reasonable to assume that the whole of that item had something to do with social welfare.

Leaving that aside, I pointed out, in the course of my remarks on the discussion on the General Resolution, that Deputy Dr. Ryan, Minister for Social Welfare, in his speech on the Social Welfare Bill, had shown that the amount that would be required for social welfare under that Bill would be something less than £2,000,000. The Minister for Finance, in his closing speech at column 943 of the debate of the 1st May, 1952, says that there would be something less than £2,000,000, namely, about £1,900,000, leaving £1,100,000 of this £3,000,000 in item No. 4.

What is it for if it is not for social services? What is that £1,100,000 put in for? Nobody would know what it meant if it were not for the casual reference of the Minister for Social Welfare in his speech on the Bill dealing with social security measures. This £2,000,000 is now stated by the Minister for Finance to be £1,900,000. The position, therefore, appears to be that on that item there is £1,100,000 unaccounted for. It appears to be the case now, according to the Minister for Finance, that £1,100,000 is unaccounted for and was unaccounted for until we raised the point of what it was for.

The unfailing practice in connection with Budget proposals and expenditure of money is that where these proposals appear in a document the purpose for which the money is required has to be indicated. To the present moment nobody knows what that £1,100,000 is required for. The Budget debate went on for weeks and the Minister concluded the debate without giving the slightest indication of what that money was required for. That £1,100,000 is, in my submission to the Dáil, a surplus—part of the surplus I have referred to as being created by these proposals. Nobody knows what it is for. The debate that has gone on here is an admission that the £1,100,000 is on the loose. Nobody knows what it is for. Nobody has said what it is for. We are entitled to ask for an explanation of why the traditional practice in connection with items of this character involving the expenditure of public money and the requisition of that money from the taxpayers has been abandoned.

I have already told the House and demonstrated that the Estimates, as compiled in the Volume of Estimates for the public services for the financial year 1952-53, have been inflated to the amount of £7,500,000. Here there is a sum of £1,100,000 added to that inflated amount for unspecified services. Nobody knows what it is for and this Dáil would not have known anything about that £1,100,000 if the point had not been raised. What is that but a surplus? In the course of the debate the only indication that was given by any Minister as to what that £1,100,000 was for was by Deputy Dr. Ryan who, I think, said it had something to do with the Housing Bill. The amount that he put in in connection with housing was only £100,000 to £150,000 to cover an item of £1,100,000 for unspecified purposes. The very fact that the only item that could be given was for housing is in itself very revealing. It reveals the entire attitude that is behind this Budget.

If the Minister is correct and if his colleagues are correct in stating that they are taking over our capital programme—housing forms part of our capital programme—that £100,000 to £150,000 which the Minister for Social Welfare thought of to cover at least part of the nakedness of the £1,100,000 that was never explained is not payable out of revenue at all. It is payable out of capital.

The Minister for Social Welfare, at columns 1529-30 of the Official Debates of the 4th April, 1952, made some very interesting suggestions. He says: "We speak in millions of £s." We speak in millions of £s. We do not bother with merely £100,000 or £150,000. Millions are what we speak in. Millions are what is being asked from the taxpayers. They speak in millions of £s, but they have got more millions from the taxpayers, and the proof of that is revealed by the fact that the sum of £1,100,000 is unexplained. Through the whole course of this debate nobody has given any precise indication of what that is for except by speaking of millions of £s— extracted unnecessarily from the taxpayer. He goes on to say:—

"We have £3,000,000 as a cover against Deputy McGilligan's £1,500,000. There are other contingencies to be provided for——"

He puts in another suggestion out of the blue, a ridiculous suggestion.

"——such as stores."

Stores, of course, are part of the reserve stocks to which I was referring earlier. He could not think of anything else, and said "such as stores". They should have been provided for in this Book of Estimates or by a separate item, specifically stating what the money was for instead of by this slipshod remark of the Minister's. He winds up by saying:—

"I am quite sure that the Minister for Finance could give the House a long list of contingencies that are covered by that £1,000,000."

The Minister for Finance, however, did not give a list long or short.

If that £1,100,000 was—as it was—an afterthought intended to provide for contingencies that should have been specifically stated in this table explanatory of the current Budget, at least the contingencies should have been indicated either in specific terms or even in a general way. In the context of this Budget, containing such harsh impositions even on the Minister's own admissions—indeed even if the Budget were justifiable—the Minister should have been in a position to say: "We have cut down every bit of unnecessary expenditure and we will not raise taxation except for what is necessary." That £1,100,000 which now appears as an afterthought for contingencies has not been justified, because the Minister and the Government do not know for what it is wanted, and cannot tell us. Under that head alone £1,100,000 too much taxation is imposed upon the people. The Minister for Finance is not able to tell us what it is for. The Minister for Social Welfare took a stab at it and all he could say was "such as stores" as well as something about houses which are financed more appropriately as capital items than in any other way. There you have £1,100,000 which should be taken out of this Budget. In a Budget of this kind which imposes so many hardships it is a big sum. It could go a long way towards relieving those impositions. If you added the £140,000 which might be taken from the dance hall proprietors you would have a big whack of money.

The Minister spent a long while to-day denouncing the tax on dance halls showing, or purporting to show, that it was an unjustifiable imposition. The fact that the Minister for Finance who, as one of his colleagues in the Government said, speaks in millions, spent a long while speaking of £140,000, reveals how keenly he and his colleagues feel the criticism directed against the relief of the dance hall proprietors.

It may be that a case could be put forward against the tax on dances; it may be that arguments could be put forward—as they were, in fact, put forward to Deputy McGilligan as Minister for Finance by the Revenue Commissioners—to continue that imposition as it was a source of growing revenue; but in this Budget, where terrible taxes are being imposed, every penny should be saved, and it would be better to save that £140,000 than to increase the price of bread or of other essential commodities. When you add £140,000 to £1,100,000 you get almost £1,250,000, which should have been used to relieve these unjust taxes. The Minister dealing or purporting to deal with this matter referred in the course of his remarks, in columns 493 and 494 on the 1st May, 1952, to other sums that had been put in by previous Minister for Finance to deal with increases in the supply services, unforeseen increases in supply expenditure or contingencies. My first comment on those arguments is that they are entirely unrelated to the present item. In the Budget provisions for 1949-50 £670,000 was provided to cover "unforeseen increases in supply expenditure", and in the Budget of 1950-51 £600,000 was provided to cover "increases in the supply services". Each of those items was specifically stated and described. Everybody knew what it was for.

Unforeseen contingencies specifically stated.

Where are the contingencies stated in item No. 4? In each of these years they were placed in their context, not under the head of social services, as they were here. Each was stated frankly; the House was told what it was for and I have no doubt that each was explained in the course of the Budget speech.

My second comment is that those provisions in those years must be taken in the context of their Budgets just as this figure of £1,100,000, part of the £3,000,000, must be taken in the context of this Budget. £600,000 is a small amount of money compared with £1,100,000—only about half. In the present circumstances there is no question but that the Government should have budgeted only for purposes which could be explained, not for unspecified schemes of expenditure which have not yet occurred to the mind of any single Minister. The Minister for Social Welfare and the Minister for Finance himself took refuge in the alleged analogy of the £1,500,000 provided last year by Deputy McGilligan, as Minister for Finance, as if that were the same type of provision. In the Budget statement, Deputy McGilligan, on the 2nd May, 1951 (Volume 125, No. 13, column 1887), referred to that £1,500,000 and gave details of why it was to be provided and what it was to be spent upon. Then he wound up as follows:—

"The £1,500,000 must be regarded as already fully committed and any additional expenditure must entail corresponding increases in taxes or other charges."

That is the way in which Deputy McGilligan, this "dishonest" Minister for Finance, as the present Minister for Finance so nicely describes him, approached this problem. He told the people what he wanted the money for. They knew what they were going to be taxed for, to provide this £1,500,000. But here, at the tail end, there is an item appearing to relate to social services, but whether or not it relates to them, there is a disguised figure of £1,100,000 and, even up to the present, even at the end of the debate when this matter had been raised by me, the Minister spent himself in verbal gymnastics, suggesting fraud against me, instead of giving arguments to answer a charge I had made on reason and on figures. He can do the same again if he likes, but I have no doubt that the people will realise that it is they who have been tricked by this £1,100,000, that burden of £1.1 million for unspecified contingencies which the Minister, with the advice of his officials, after weeks of consideration of this matter, is not able to suggest, even in a general way, what they may be. A sum of £140,000 has been taken off the dance hall proprietors, and so there is £1,250,000 that would be available to relieve taxation.

Now let me deal with another way in which the Minister tried to confuse this matter. He had charged his predecessor with dishonesty and fraud. I will content myself with an understatement of the Minister's speech at the conclusion of the Budget debate, that his statements were confusing and misleading, intended to confuse and designed to cover up the facts. Had I not raised this point, he had not the slightest intention of telling the people what this money was for or even revealing that it was there. Even then, when this was revealed to the public by us, he was not able to deliver a convincing explanation, but he added a horse, a donkey and a dog, and he got a white elephant. This is the way he did it.

He commenced by saying that Deputy McGilligan provided last year under this head £1,500,000 and then stated that "the actual current expenditure unprovided for in the Budget came to over four times that figure at £6.8 million." Of course, there is no relation between those two figures and the Minister tried to delude and confuse the public by trying to relate two incomparable figures, two figures that bear no comparison. £1,500,000 was for specified services which were earmarked, and as Deputy McGilligan, the then Minister for Finance, said:—

"That £1,500,000 must be regarded as fully committed and any additional expenditure must entail corresponding increases in taxes or other charges."

The alleged deficit of £6.8 million—the existence of that, and I say it advisedly, "alleged" deficit — was blown sky-high in this House half a dozen times. But even if it were there it includes our old friend the £2.7 million for fuel subsidies which must have been a tremendous boon to the Minister for Finance who has used it for all sorts of purposes. It bobs up all around the place, the £2.7 million for the fuel subsidies for the coal and turf in the Phoenix Park that we got as a damnosa hereditas when we came into office in the year 1948. It also includes moneys for expenditure that we opposed and would have nothing to do with. It also includes moneys in the hands of the Revenue Department at the 31st March which we did not know about at the time. At all events, the “alleged” deficit is a figure which is not in any way comparable with the figure of £1.5 million which is effected by receipts as well as expenditure. That is the first series of figures by which he tried to confuse this issue.

He went on to say that in 1950-51 the sum of £600,000 provided for increases in the Supply Services was insufficient, but that £1.44 million represented the actual excess of expenditure over the original estimate. He refers also to the sum of £676,000 for the other year. Again he ignores the facts or conceals the facts that any of that increased expenditure in those two years that did come about was all discharged either by savings or economies on the existing public services or by the increased revenue that came in from existing rates of taxes by way of increased revenue. There was no deficit in any of these years. All that expenditure was paid off. You might imagine it was there all the time and never paid, the way the Minister tries to relate those unrelatable figures. He then adds those three together, and he says at column 944:—

"If we take the last three Budgets of our predecessors, on the average the amount overspent annually on current services was £4,000,000."

It seems that Minister exercised great restraint because instead of budgeting for £1,100,000 he should have budgeted for £3,000,000 more. Of course, these figures are entirely unrelated and cannot be related to each other; three different things are added up to try to confuse the issue and they have nothing whatever to do with the point.

The inescapable conclusion is that that £1,100,000 is there available supposed to be as we are now told—by way of afterthought—for contingencies; yet not one single Minister of the whole Government from the Taoiseach down to the Minister for Finance, who made the last speech, was able to give the slightest indication of what it was for, what the people had been taxed for.

The next item I referred to was the overcharge for interest. The only Minister to deal with that item was the Minister for Finance himself and he says in the same Budget speech at column 946, Volume 131 of 1st May, 1952, when he speaks about my use of the word "hope" and substitutes the word "need":—

"But the new loan is not the only item in respect of which we shall have obligations. Last year, as I pointed out in the Budget statement —the reference will be found in column 1131—the State had to borrow over £35,000,000 exclusive of the Budget deficit of £6.8 million. Of this sum £9.7 million was for what Deputy Costello and his Coalition colleagues voted as "capital services"... It is necessary, accordingly, to set up a corresponding annuity of £501,922, and this amount is, of course, included in the increased provision which we have to make in the current Budget for the service of public debt.".

I want to direct attention to the Minister's statement to the effect that last year over £35,000,000 had to be borrowed. Of the £35,000,000 which the Minister stated he had to borrow, £9,750,000 consisted of moneys to be voted for capital services. Provision is made in the Finance Act to amortise that money, and accordingly this year the only provision that need be made is for interest on the difference between that £9,750,000 and the £35,000,000, namely, £25,250,000. It is significant that the figure of £25,250,000 is the amount borrowed during the year from the Marshall Aid funds. If there is any interest paid or payable under that borrowing it is paid to the fund, and it is a book-keeping transaction.

There is no net charge on the Exchequer in respect of it. This year we have to pay £600,000 to the United States by way of annuity on the borrowing. The Minister will certainly have to give much more information as regards the explanation for the overcharge in interest than he has already given if he is to refute the charge I made that the modest sum of £500,000 is overcharged by way of interest in respect of that item.

In the course of his remarks on the Budget the Minister referred to the tax on wines which we took off and which has been put on again by the present Government. That surely was a brilliant piece of finance by the then Minister for Finance in 1947. Perhaps that is what has been repeated this year. That brilliant piece of finance of putting a tax on wines resulted in the fact that, although there was a greater increase in tax, the revenue was very much less than was achieved from the smaller rate of tax. That is why the tax had to be taken off.

In my speech on the General Resolution I dealt with the question of the buoyancy of revenue. One of my colleagues interrupted me with a derisive observation when I mentioned that there might be a buoyancy of revenue next year.

As Deputy McGilligan has already stated and as I stated myself, we anticipated last year that the buoyancy in the revenue would be £2.8 million. Actually, the buoyancy was £5.6 million—double the amount we expected —showing that we were considerably out in our calculations. Maybe the buoyancy this year will be £5.6 million or maybe the brilliant piece of finance on the part of the Minister's predecessor will be repeated, and these crushing taxes will not even bring in the revenue which the Minister anticipates. In connection with these Budget proposals we are entitled to point to what was achieved during the three years of the inter-Party Government's régime. During that period the national income increased every year and the revenue showed itself to be more buoyant each year. We are entitled to say that if that economic policy was carried out—a policy which brought into employment an additional 1,000 every month, 12,000 people in a year—there would be a buoyancy of revenue far more than we even anticipated or suggested. However, instead of 12,000 people being brought into employment in 12 months, 12,000 people have been put out of employment during the 12 months that the Minister for Finance has held office.

Such is the contrast between the two policies—between the policy of the present Government and our policy to which the Minister made scornful references to-day and in the course of his speeches over the last 12 months. The Minister said to-day that our policy resulted in false prosperity. It did not seem very false to the people who got employment. The prosperity which the Minister has brought about now is very real to these people who are put out of employment as a result of the policy of the present Government.

The last item to which I referred was the overcharge in connection with food subsidies. I said that the saving on those subsidies was underestimated. In the course of his observations on the Budget General Resolution, the Taoiseach gave us a solemn lecture and dealt with what he called: "The rate of flow and danger of averages". That lecture was rather discountenanced when his colleague, the Minister for Social Welfare, stated that he knew all about butter and butter subsidies, and that the Department of Agriculture will accept the very sensible practice of levying back any subsidy paid either in the form of arrears on butter in stock or on the flow of butter into the creameries before the 1st July. Therefore, the rate of flow will, in practice, be made not to matter. In the dissertation which the Minister for Social Welfare gave out of the depths of his knowledge on butter subsidies, one fact clearly emerged: That the calculations that were being made dealing with the results of the butter subsidy depend upon one factor in particular—the factor that the Government anticipate that there will be a loss on imported butter. They are making their arrangements here on the basis that they are going to lose on importing New Zealand butter or on any imported butter. The taxpayer is going to be taxed for that. Was there ever such nonsense heard in this House that this could be said at a time when the declared policy of this Government is so to arrange their economic affairs and financial impositions as to cause a drying up in consumption and an increase in the price of butter to the consumer so as to decrease consumption of butter?

It is to be understood from that set of facts that the Government are going to lose money by importing butter from New Zealand and elsewhere. The fact is that they will make money on imported butter, because they are going to sell it at an economic price and the Government are going to get a profit on top of that. It is their policy to make the people pay for butter, of which they are consuming too much. In the course of his speech, Deputy McGilligan dealt with the very point with which I am now dealing, and said that, far from there being a loss on imported butter, there would, in fact, be a profit of somewhere in the order of £400,000. We are entitled to say, therefore, that there is an overcharge of £400,000 instead of a so-called anticipated loss on imported butter.

On the question of the flour and bread subsidy, granting the Minister and his colleagues the benefit of every doubt and checking and counterchecking the calculations which I made and gave to the Dáil, and accepting that very absurd assumption which was made by the Tánaiste in the course of his speech at Volume 9, column 1301, on the 3rd April, 1952:—

"We have assumed that there will be some increase in consumption."

—accepting that extraordinary assumption and giving the Minister the benefit of all the doubts, I will proceed now to demonstrate, having checked my calculations, that almost £1,000,000 more than has been estimated should be saved.

On a point of order. Can we be told the section of the Finance Bill which deals with these subsidies?

Is that the only contribution the Deputy can make to this debate? Has the Deputy been asleep for the last half an hour?

The Deputy is trying to pick up where the Minister left off over an hour ago.

Deputy Allen on a point of order.

Might I inquire if it is in order to discuss subsidies on the Finance Bill?

Although there is no reference to subsidies on the Finance Bill, the Deputy has dealt with the question of taxation.

Obviously Deputy Allen does not understand what I am talking about.

I am not dealing with the question of subsidies. I am dealing with the allegation I made that in connection with the provision of taxation more taxation is being got from the people than is necessary, and I am taking up this question of the amount supposed to be saved on the subsidies and showing that there is more to be saved than the Minister says. Have I satisfied the Deputy's intelligence and shown that I am in order? I want to show how I arrived at that sum of £1,000,000. One figure is clear from the course of this debate—that the total cost of all subsidies prior to this Budget was £15.2 million. That is the Minister's own figure. Of course in carrying out the policy which the inter-Party Government carried out of making the rich pay for the poor in connection with these matters of essential foodstuffs we set on foot a scheme for the sale of white bread and, from the proceeds of the sale of white bread, went a certain sum of money in ease of the taxpayer and in ease of the consumer. That in itself was a subsidy, a subsidy paid by the consumers of white flour for the benefit of those people who had to buy rationed flour. Therefore, the real cost of all subsidies including flour and bread, prior to the Budget, was £15.2 million, plus the amount that came in ease to the Exchequer and the consumer by way of the consumption of white flour. At column 212 of the debate of 23rd April, 1952, the Taoiseach gave the amount that was secured as a result of the scheme for the sale of white flour in ease to the consumer and the taxpayer. He said:—

"The subsidy on white flour in three-quarters of the year is more than £1,000,000. That is the overcharge."

The Taoiseach has given the figure of £1,000,000 for three-quarters of the year. Therefore, for the full year it would amount to £1? million. If you add to the £15.2 million, the cost of all subsidies, £1.3 million you get £16.5 million as the measure of the existing subsidisation.

We will now come back to the figure on which the Minister for Finance started this debate. The Minister for Finance values those subsidies at 2/-per head. That would be reduced by 6d., or one-fourth, on the 1st July. £16.5 million is the total cost of all the subsidies, including what was provided by the consumers of white flour. Four into £16.5 million gives you £4.1 million, which gives you the cost of the subsidies in a year other than this year.

The bread and flour subsidies at the most will cost a quarter of £9.28 million, which is the total net Exchequer cost of the bread and flour subsidies for the year. That figure is taken from the speech of the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Dr. Ryan, as reported in column 1523. The cost of the bread and flour subsidies for the first quarter of this year is arrived at by dividing £9.28 million by four, which gives you £2.32 million. That figure is almost certainly excessive, because again the Tanáiste gave us some additional valuable information. As reported in column 1292 of the debate of 3rd April, he pointed out that the sum of £9.28 million allows for the effect of higher prices for wheat which will only affect subsidies next September because, as he said, we are now eating last year's wheat bought at a lower price. From 1st July the cost will be at the rate of £4.1 million for a full year. But we must add the cost of the lower extraction of flour by that scheme introduced for what reason we do not know except to put an additional burden on the poor.

The Taoiseach, as reported in column 213 of 23rd April, gave the cost of that lower extraction at £0.3 million, i.e., one-third of £1,000,000, so that the annual cost of the subsidies which will in future be devoted exclusively to bread and flour is £4.4 million for a full year, or £3.3 million for three-quarters of the year. At the most, therefore, the subsidies will cost for the first quarter of this year £2.3 million and for the remaining three-quarters it will be £3.3 million, a total of £5.6 million. Deducting that £5.6 million, which is the cost for the whole of this year, from £9.28 million, the figure I have already given, the saving is £3.68 million.

But, if Deputies will refer again to the speech of the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Dr. Ryan, they will see that it is a mine of information. At column 1526, they will find that the estimated saving on this head is only £2.71 million or a difference of £1,000,000. There is the £1,000,000 that we found.

In connection with the matter of £1,000,000 too much being put upon the people and disguised under this subsidy, it must be remembered that the Tánaiste said in the quotation which I have already given that the calculations are made on the assumption of increased consumption of bread. Is it not absurd to think that, with the tremendously increased cost of bread, there will be an increase in the consumption of bread, particularly when one remembers that the whole justification offered for the change that is being effected by this Budget on the cost of bread and flour is the prevention of waste by raising the price of bread to its economic level and preventing its being fed to animals.

If instead of an increase in consumption—which, for the reasons I have given, is exceedingly doubtful—there is a decrease in consumption because of the increased price of bread and flour and because people will not be able to pay for the same amount of these commodities as hitherto, there will then be greater saving to the Exchequer. More than £1,000,000 will, in that event, be saved. The less that is eaten, from July onwards, the more the Exchequer will save. That apparently is why the Minister for Industry and Commerce had to rely on the absurd suggestion that the whole of the calculation in respect of the flour and bread subsidy was based on the assumption that there would be increased consumption when there would be an increase in price. The whole desire behind the Budget is to ease down on consumption. Therefore, between butter, flour and bread, there is, in fact, a demonstrable overestimate and over-taxation to the extent of at least £1,500,000.

I have dealt with all the matters I have referred to in the course of my original speech. I have shown that the effort to answer my arguments failed entirely and that the charge of overestimation which I have made is justifiable. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that all the figures given by the Minister in his Budget are correct. Let us assume that the Minister's aim is just barely to balance his Budget and that the position is such that he has to have all this additional taxation in order barely to balance his Budget. Assuming for the moment that that is the position, what follows from it is that if—which the Lord forbid—the present Government is in office in this country this time 12 months, and the present Minister for Finance has again to stand up in this House and present a Budget—which God forfend——

There is not a hope of it.

——he will then be in the position of having at least £3? million available for largesse or distribution and he will be able to point out what a great fellow he is. I have already shown, according to the Government's own Estimates, that the total cost of subsidies in a full year is £4.4 million. That applies to a year other than the present year, which is complicated by the fact that for the first quarter of the year the new policy will not take effect and the subsidies will not be removed until the 1st July. This year, according to those Estimates, the cost amounts to £8.6 million. Take the figure of £15.25 million, which was the cost of all the subsidies—leaving aside the subsidy due to the sale of white flour before this Budget came in—and deduct from it the figure of £6.67 million, which is the figure given by the Minister for the savings: that gives a figure of £8.6 million. Now you have £4.4 million, which is the figure for the ordinary year, and £8.6 million, which is the figure for this peculiar year: the difference is £4.2 million. It would seem, on those figures, that next year the Minister will have £4.2 million at his disposal to hand out in largesse for reduction of taxes with a view to saying what a great fellow he is. Against £4.2 million you must set off the figure for social service benefits which amounts, I think, to £900,000. Deducting the £900,000 from the £4.2 million you arrive at £3.3 million. There, demonstrably—accepting every single item of the Minister's own Budget— is the whole scope revealed.

We believe that there is a surplus of at least £10,000,000. It may not be achieved because of effects unforeseen by the Minister and the economic situation which will be created by this Budget. We believe that if the economic policy pursued by the inter-Party Government had been fulfilled, there would be no necessity for any of these impositions. I would never, under any circumstances, be a party to this Budget or to any provision of this Budget.

Might I pause, for a moment, to inquire who is going to benefit by the Budget? First on the list are our old friends, the dance hall proprietors. Next come the tea merchants. The Minister says that he is going to keep on Tea Importers, Limited, and bulk purchasing in case he should offend the Indian Government. He says that at a time when, I am informed, the price of tea in the open market is very considerably less than the price at which Tea Importers, Limited, are importing it. Tea Importers, Limited, are going to make money on this Budget. The biscuit manufacturers and confectioners will benefit under this Budget. We made those people who bought white flour pay for the cheap bread. We made them pay in order to ease the taxpayer and the consumer. An end is being put to that now, and the confectioners as well as the biscuit manufacturers will benefit. The jam manufacturers will benefit under this Budget. They will get a reduction in the price which they will have to pay for their sugar. Even for their expensive jams they will have to pay less than we made them pay. We made them pay for the sugar in order that the people might get cheap sugar. Under this Budget, this Government is allowing the jam manufacturers to get cheaper sugar and the ordinary people have to pay a higher price for the sugar. Who is going to benefit in that context? There are the sellers of white flour. Our old friends, R.G.D.A.T.A., will benefit—that public-spirited body which refused to sell white flour at the price which the inter-Party Government fixed because they were not getting enough profit on it They refused to sell white flour or push its sale.

They are being let rip now and they will benefit by this policy. Then there are our old friends the millers. I referred here a few moments ago, and proved by figures, that £1,000,000, too much was being imposed in taxation on the people by this Budget in reference to the subsidy on bread and flour. Perhaps I was wrong. Would it be that that £1,000,000 will go to the millers in reduction of their charges in order that their situation may be eased—just as the situation of the biscuit manufacturers, confectioners and jam manufacturers is being eased? Would it be unduly suspicious to inquire if that £1,000,000 is being given to the millers? At all events, the millers will gain out of this. These are the people who are going to benefit by this Budget. Everybody else will suffer.

A Deputy

The tobacco manufacturers.

I did not overlook the tobacco manufacturers.

Muinntir Conamara.

Is that the best contribution the Deputy can make? If so he ought to keep quiet.

Muinntir Conamara.

Níl cead ag an Teacta labhairt anois.

The Minister and his colleagues made great play of the fact that they were doing something which they knew was unpopular and they asked why they should do something which was unpopular. I shall give a few reasons. First and perhaps foremost, as I said at the beginning, the motive behind the Budget, as revealed by the Minister again to-day in his speech, is his desire to discredit his predecessors, to brand them, as he tried to do to-day, as fraudulent and dishonest in connection with their financial transactions. The second reason is that they would be showing their inconsistency if they did not introduce this Budget. In the period when they were over here on these benches in opposition, every criticism they made of our financial and economic policy was directed towards bringing them into the position in which they now find themselves.

Deputy McGilligan has already told the House that the inter-Party Government were advised to budget for a surplus of £7,000,000 last year, and Deputy McGilligan refused to do so because the conditions of the country were not such as to require the imposition of taxes for the purpose of preventing inflation or mopping up the excess purchasing power in the hands of the people. The advisers of the Minister this year, however, found the Minister as wax in their hands. Their traditional policy is: "Get in all the taxes you can and if you get too much it can go in reduction of debt." That is their honest view, their out-of-date view. The Minister, as I have said, was wax in their hands, and anyhow that advice fitted in with his desire to show that we were wrong and dishonest in our financial policy.

That leads to the next explanation for the introduction of this Budget— the desire to prove that they were right in 1947, when they imposed additional taxes on the people which we later removed.

On cigarettes.

On tobacco and beer. They are back again now in the effort to provide a justification for their past. I have already stated that, on any view of this Budget, they have provided themselves with a nest egg which will enable them to shower benefits on the people and to pretend that they had done a really useful public service in cleaning up the so-called dishonesty and the fraudulent financial operations of their predecessors. But perhaps the most significant fact of all is that they have indicated their intention of carrying out a programme of capital works involving an expenditure of £35,000,000. They do not know how it is going to be financed, according to the Minister's own statement. That statement showed that the total amount that appeared to be available to him either from borrowings or savings, from loans or elsewhere, is £18,000,000. How is he going to carry out the capital programme of £35,000,000? Where is the remaining £17,000,000 to come from?

Over-taxation in the Budget is the complete answer to that. They want to raise more taxes than they need in order to try to finance the entire of the £35,000,000 capital programme, which they will not bring themselves to finance by the methods which we adopted and which we carried through so successfully. That was also revealed to-day in the Minister's vicious state ment at the end of his speech. It was revealed in the manner in which he shouted and roared across the House: "There is going to be an end to borrowing." I was really surprised and asked what was there going to be an end of.

To meet current expenditure.

The Minister shouted: "There is going to be an end to borrowing."

To meet current expenditure.

There is going to be an end of borrowing! Now we know why the Dáil is faced with this Budget. The programme of capital expenditure which we initiated and carried out, was based on a scheme of borrowing under which repayments were made by means of an annuity provided for in the Central Fund Act and which amortised the whole thing at the end of the 30 years, leaving not one single penny piece to be paid at the end of the 30 years. That is the revealing picture of the Minister's statement to-day: there is going to be an end to borrowing. If there is going to be an end to the prudent borrowing that we initiated and carried through, then there is going to be an end, a speedy end, to the present Government and all its perfidious acts.

A lot of talk of this description is very handy as a smoke-screen. We have just heard Deputy Costello tell us about how "we reduced the price of cigarettes and we reduced the price of beer". Where did the money come from to reduce the price of these commodities? It was borrowed.

For the next 30 years the people are going to be paying for the reductions then given, as the price of putting the gentleman opposite in office here.

Will the Minister for Finance repeat that in his next argument?

I shall repeat this for the Deputy, and it has been on the official records of this House for the past month. If anybody tries to deny it we should like to hear from him. I have here a return of the total State borrowings for each of the years 1947-48 to 1951-52, inclusive. In 1947-48 the total amount borrowed was £5,004,500.

Will the Deputy give the reference?

The reference is column 168 of the Official Report of the 23rd April, 1952.

Who said it?

These are the official records given by the Minister. In 1948-49, the total amount borrowed was £8,951,500; in 1949-50, £20,539,000; in 1950-51, £20,539,000.

Capital investment.

We shall come to that later—capital investment in day-old chicks. I wonder how many eggs they would have laid or what age they will be in 30 years' time whoever will be paying for them. In 1950-51 they borrowed £21,686,000. What did they do with the money? In 1951-52 it was £38,938,000. That is a formidable bill —£95,000,000 odd for the luxury of having a mixum-gatherum Government here for three and a half years.

The same day I asked another question of the Minister for Finance, if he would state the total amount payable and paid in interest and sinking fund in the financial year 1947-48 and the total amount payable in interest and sinking fund for the financial year 1952-53. My reason in asking those questions was so that the ordinary man in the street may know exactly where he stands and what burden has been thrown on his shoulders. I do not want four and a half hours of smoke-screen figures to pour out to-morrow and after, that would make the man, when finished reading, a lot more smoked up than when he started.

Here they are. Deputy MacEntee, the Minister for Finance, said that the amount paid in 1947-48 for the service of the public debt—for interest and sinking fund—was £4,224,334; and that for the year 1952-53 the estimated figure was £10,080,400. That is the amount which has to be found each year by the people of this country before they get a penny for themselves. We see there an increase of very close on £6,000,000 a year, to be found and paid every year by the people of this country for the next 30 years, for the luxury of having a mixum-gatherum team in charge of this country for three and a half years.

Is any Deputy over there prepared to stand up and deny that those figures are correct? Is any Deputy over there prepared to stand up now and say that for the luxury of having a mixum-gatherum Government for three and a half years the people should pay £6,000,000 a year for the next 30 years? It is a rather expensive luxury, and a rather big amount to pay for the pleasure of having this team across on this side of the House for a couple of years. I have waited for the last three weeks hoping that some Deputy would make a denial of those facts. They dare not deny them. Those are the items that this country must find the money for now. We have heard all the talk about their achievements. There is no doubt that was a great achievement. I wish I were able to achieve as much with that bank manager of mine down the country. It was a great achievement to succeed in securing out of the people £95,000,000 in three and a half years.

You are going to get it in one year.

I am sure that dual purpose hen of Deputy Rooney's is not going to pay for it. Will she be there for 30 years to pay for it? Let us see if he will get any money on that dual purpose hen in 30 years' time. The country will be still paying in 30 years, and an old hen it will be then. However, those are only the starting off points.

We were told that the Minister was providing too much money, that he was taxing to the extent of £10,000,000 too much. Would it not be a grand thing for this nation if Deputy McGilligan, when he was sitting here on the 2nd May, just 12 months ago, had only estimated for what he knew he would have to pay, if he had only estimated for the £855,000 that they issued two days afterwards to the local authorities in the letters they sent out the day after the Dáil was dissolved, letters that put £2,000,000 on the ratepayers and £855,000 on taxation? "Deputy John A. Costello" was a lovely name to sign to the tail end of the bill that put £15,800 on the ratepayers of Cork and £2,000,000 on the ratepayers of this country and £1,000,000 on this Budget —and that at a period when they were no longer here as Ministers, but were only caretakers waiting for their successors to come in and take over. Who got that money? The men in charge of the giving out of every labourer's cottage in every county— £125 a man, a week before they went to the poll. Every home assistance officer in the country who had the doling out of home assistance——

That does not arise on the motion.

Did the Waterford ratecollectors get any?

The securing of our revenue is what arises on this.

Yes, and this is the expenditure of the Minister.

That can be dealt with on another occasion, but not now.

It is portion of the taxation.

It is not relevant to the motion.

Very well; we will have another day for this, too. That is the manner in which this money was expended, this money that has to be found now in taxation and provided for in finance.

Will any Deputy say that Deputy McGilligan, sitting down there, did not know on the day he introduced his Budget, on 2nd May, that on the 24th May he was going to get a bill from the Civil Service for the £3,600,000 increase in salaries? Why did he not provide for that? Deputy McGilligan came along here coolly and told us that Córas Iompair Éireann would have to provide their own finances and balance their own budget—a month after the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Cosgrave, had announced solemnly that he wanted £980,000 to pay their losses for the previous year. We did not hear any howl then from Labour about the number of men going to be put out of employment in Córas Iompair Éireann if Deputy McGilligan's order, that Córas Iompair Éireann square up their finances and bring in revenue sufficient to meet their needs, were put into force. We did not hear then about the number of men who would be sacked if that were done.

They were not put out.

No, but £1,800,000 was put on to the backs of the Irish taxpayers to be found after the inter-Party Government left office, and £433,000 interest on the stock had to be found also. Then the Parties opposite talk about overestimation in this Budget. It is far better to have overestimation than underestimation to the extent of £11,000,000 or £12,000,000.

Talk about bread, butter, tea and sugar now.

I am talking about people paying their debts. These are your debts and they will have to be paid over the next 30 years. That is the bill that mixum-gatherum left after their three years in office. That bill will have to be paid over the next 30 years. £95,000,000! What will be done with it?

A couple of weeks ago I was speaking to a prominent Irish industrialist in my constituency and he told me that with the expenditure of £1,000,000 on the expansion of his industry he could give permanent employment to over 600 men. We could provide permanent employment for the whole of the unemployed here on that basis if we had £95,000,000. We could dish it out at the rate of £3,500,000 per county. That is the £95,000,000 that the inter-Party Government squandered in three and a half years.

In the 23 years' existence of this State before the inter-Party Government took office the total amount necessary to cover debt for that period was £4,200,000. In the three and a half years of inter-Party Government it jumped from £4,200,000 to £10,080,000, and in three and a half years the inter-Party Government increased the State debt by 150 per cent. Now they moan and they groan and they want to know why we should try to find the necessary money in this way. They want to know why we would not try to find it some other way. I have heard of "neck" but this is cast-iron "neck"—it will not bend either way.

Here now we have a new board of directors, as it were, who have had to take over the debt left by the inter-Party Government. The Opposition have spent a considerable time telling us that we are looking for too much. It was that Opposition that reduced the price of the pint and the price of cigarettes and have now put the people in the position of having to pay for the cigarettes they smoked and the beer they drank in the last three and a half years.(Interruptions.)

Order! Deputy Corry on the motion.

I heard Deputy Davin groaning and complaining recently because of the increased tax on petrol and bewailing the effect that increase would have on employment in Córas Iompair Éireann and on bus fares. I like a man to be consistent. I carefully searched through Deputy McGilligan's speech here on the Budget last year. At column 1903 of Volume 125 Deputy McGilligan said speaking in connection with Córas Iompair Éireann:—

"The board has a statutory duty ‘so to conduct its undertaking as to secure as soon as may be, that, taking one year with another, the revenue shall be not less than sufficient to meet the charges properly chargeable to it'. This duty will, I hope, be discharged with the utmost expedition."

He provided nothing in last year's Budget to cover Córas Iompair Éireann losses and we heard no outcry then from Deputy Davin. Neither Deputy Davin nor Deputy Byrne was bothering then about bus fares in connection with the poor children in Dublin. They were not worrying then about any increase of 2d. or 3d. Deputy Davin did not mind whether 10 or 20 per cent. of the workers in Córas Iompair Éireann had to be sacked in order that the company could pay its way. That did not worry him one bit. Now the bill has to be paid. I am always prepared to listen to reason. Can any Deputy on the Opposition Benches tell me where the £11,000,000 that should have been provided for in last year's Budget and the £6,000,000 increased interest as a result of the spending spree can be found instead of raising it in the manner, suggested by the Minister here?

You would not understand it.

Why not put it on Deputy Rooney's tomatoes or on his glasshouses? Now the money is due or it is not due. If there is any Deputy opposite who is prepared to deny any one of these figures that I have given, now is his time to do it. If those figures are false is there any reason why the Deputies opposite will not get up and contradict them? Can they deny that they left this debt after them?

Can they deny that they increased the debt of this country by £95,000,000 in three and a half years?

And built an extra 30,000 houses.

Can they deny that in future the people of this country will have to find an extra £6,000,000 each year for the next 30 years to pay back that debt?

The Deputy has said that three or four times.

I am anxious to get some of the Deputies opposite either to give us a denial of that or an admission of it. Let them do that one way or the other. I will let it go at that. I was anxious to get out these facts so that the ordinary man in the street would know what the position is, so that he would know the amount of the debt that has been piled on his back during the honeymoon of the last three and a half years, and of the spree and the morning after.

Now that is perfectly clear we can have a general election.

You can be very clear on it now.(Interruptions.)

Deputy Corry is entitled to speak on the motion without interruption.

I want to say a word in connection with the flour subsidy. After all, a large portion of this money has to be paid back in dollars for the wheat that was purchased abroad. I do not know whether other Deputies had my experience or not, but I have seen coming out in a bag from Cork City every week at least £1 worth of bread for greyhounds.

To one house alone.

In your constituency?

In my constituency. Under the system by which bread was subsidised city people had at least double the amount of bread they required while the country people had not enough. That was the position. The country boys who could eat a pretty considerable amount of bread could only get a certain quantity of white bread, while the people in the city had double the amount of bread they required. I would like to hear how much of this money went to Cuba, to Formosa and to Iraq.

The Deputy should come back to the revenue side and not the expenditure side.

At the time that I succeeded in getting the flour mills reopened, I had the support of the Labour Party, the flour mills which had been closed down by Deputy McGilligan when he was in power before. When we hear all the noise about unemployment to-day I cannot but remember those days. Nobody knows that better than Deputy Hickey. He was out on the day that the Clondullane mills were reopened. He was there on the day when 50 men were getting permanent employment, men who had been thrown out of employment three years previously when Deputy McGilligan closed down the flour mills.(Interruptions.)

The Chair cannot get a word in with the Cork Deputies interrupting. Deputy Corry on the motion.

I do not wish to pursue this matter further. I have put my questions fairly and honestly, and I hope that some of the Deputies opposite will be able to answer them. I am looking for the £95,000,000 which they borrowed and squandered. I want to know what they did with that money. I want to know, too, what they have to say about the £6,000,000 a year extra which will have to be paid in interest on that borrowed money. If that £6,000,000 extra is not there, will the Deputies opposite tell us why it is not? I have got the Minister's reply to my question, and I want the Deputies who borrowed it to tell us what it was squandered on, and what kind of a spree they had.

I have here a statement which was made by the Chairman of the Licensed Vintners' Association in March, 1952. He says that the increase in the consumption of beer in 1951, as compared with 1950, was 34,000 barrels; that the people drank 69,000 more gallons of whiskey in that year than they did in the year before, and 54,000 more gallons of wine.

On a point of order. May I ask this financial wizard what he is quoting from?

I am quoting from a statement which appeared in the Irish Independent in March, 1952.

You wanted to open the "pubs" on Sunday.

Will that satisfy the Deputy? That is a statement of fact from Deputy Davin's paper. I now want to ask how many borrowed millions went into that spree? There is no doubt but that there was increased consumption. You all must have had a high time.

How did you fix the price of barley at all?

I had no bother in the world in doing it.

The fixing of the price of barley does not come into this. Deputy Davin ought to know that.

At any rate, there was increased consumption, and it helped us to make a price for the barley. If they were prepared to drink it, surely they were prepared to pay for it. Think of the poor dickens down the country, think of your children, in fact, who will have to pay for the cheap beer that you gave out in 1948.

The Deputy has said that several times.

How much are you going to borrow this year?

I am worried with interruptions from all corners of the House and I cannot help it if Deputies rudely interrupt and I am thrown off the trend of my argument.

The Chair is of opinion that the Deputy is looking for interruptions.

But for the rude interruptions I would have finished sooner. I intervened in the debate because I want a straight answer from somebody on the opposite benches, that is if any one of them can be straight now. I doubt if they can. I want some of them to tell us whether or not the people have to pay that £6,000,000 a year for the next 30 years for them; whether or not they borrowed all that money and what they did with it.

You got good value for it.

This Bill asks us to provide money for the Budget that was introduced here by the Minister for Finance some weeks ago. First of all, it is only right to recall that the existing Government owes its origin to the dishonest campaign carried out last year, regarding the cost of living particularly. The cost of living is what will be affected most as a result of this Budget. It is estimated that the cost of living will be increased by 17 per cent. as a result of the Budget. While the cost of living in the three years when the inter-Party Government were in control went up by 3 per cent., an average of 1 per cent. per annum, in less than 12 months these proposals will increase the cost of living by 17 per cent.

I saw the Cork Deputy, Deputy MacCarthy, was very restless when mention was made of the dishonesty and deception of the Fianna Fáil Party last year, which caused the present Government to be in office. I have here the Cork election address of May, 1951, which was responsible in fact for bringing into this House Deputy MacCarthy, if it did not bring another Deputy to the House. This election address complains that in the three years the loaf of bread increased from 6d. to 6½d. It also complained that the price of butter was increased from 2/8 to 2/10. That was the burden of the complaint in the Cork election address last year. We had the Fianna Fáil Party cooing to the housewife, asking for her support and complaining that the inter-Party Government did not do well for her. In the course of their appeal they asked the people to vote for a new deal and a straight deal. We know now the new deal. It is a raw deal for the householders.

How long did it take you to think that one out?

It is better than some of the Minister's.

I am just asking a question.

That is not a straight answer.

I am only addressing myself to the time factor involved.

There was an advertisement issued, cooing to the housewife, seeking her support. It asks: "Is this honest"? It says:—

"Every housewife knows that the cost of clothes, coal, soap and most other household commodities has risen to a dangerous level. No amount of statistical juggling can prove otherwise. A pound note goes nowhere in household shopping to-day, and every housewife knows it. Yet, the Coalition is attempting to prove by statistics and false arguments that the cost of living has not risen. What do you think? Is this honest?"

That is the question which Fianna Fáil put to the housewife last year when she knew from the official figures that the cost of living in three years had gone up by 3 per cent.

Is that the one with the photograph on it?

That is the one with the photograph and there she is.

Deputy Flanagan must have brought that one over with him. He was using it the last time I saw it.

I got this one for myself.

There are several copies. The Irish Press has a big circulation.

Above all things, the present Government has proved itself to be dishonest to the electors, dishonest in its pledges. Last year, when it was seeking the support of a few very important Independents, it included in its 17-point programme, point 15—I am quoting now from the programme published on the 4th June, 1951—which guaranteed.

"To maintain subsidies, to control the prices of essential foodstuffs and the operation of an efficient system of price regulation for all necessary and scarce commodities."

There is the point in the Fianna Fáil programme which deceived the country and certainly secured the support of certain Independents who believed that the Fianna Fáil Party would implement that programme.

Particularly, I want to refer to the portion of that statement saying "to control the prices of essential foodstuffs". Many of us know that the retail prices of many commodities were decontrolled in the month of June when the present Government were only a few weeks in office. The retail prices of certain articles of food were decontrolled, which had an immediate effect on the cost of living. Yet they had this statement here guaranteeing to control prices of essential foodstuffs. Month after month during the period before Christmas we had one announcement after another indicating that decontrol was being applied to the retail prices of articles normally used in the household. If the inter-Party Government did anything, they certainly tried to hold the retail price of goods at a reasonable level, a level which would be related in some way to the incomes of householders.

I would like to remind the Minister for Finance of his own statement in relation to the prices of beer and tobacco. On the 15th May, 1951, speaking at Rathmines Town Hall, Mr. MacEntee, now Minister for Finance, made the following statement:—

"A number of persons in the licensed trade——"

That has been said before.

"——were spreading the rumour——"

1951 is not 1952.

Therefore you need not stand by your election pledges?

I did not give any pledges.

My pledges are in my election address, printed and written and signed by me.

Did you ever deny that in the Press?

What I said only meant that I was not going to bring in emergency duties again.

Why not write to the Independent?

Look, little boy blueshirt!

If the Minister does not mind, I propose to quote his statement of the 15th May, 1951.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted and 20 Deputies being present,

On 15th May, 1951, the Minister for Finance spoke as follows in Rathmines Town Hall:—

"A number of persons in the licensed trade were spreading the rumour that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power the taxes imposed on drink in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 would be reimposed. There is no truth in any such rumour."

There is the statement of the present Minister for Finance when seeking the support of the electorate during the general election campaign. It is typical of the type of promise and propaganda put before the electorate last year in order to secure a change of Government. That was not the only thing. We had the example of the circular sent out by the secretary of the Ballroom Proprietors' Association asking for subscriptions for the Fianna Fáil Party. I propose to quote one sentence to illustrate that there must have existed some kind of understanding or collusion between the Fianna Fáil Party and the Ballroom Proprietors' Association. Portion of this letter, signed by the secretary of the association, Kathleen Morris, reads:—

"... It will be appreciated that in order to have the desired effect ..."

—that, of course, was a change of Government—

"... our financial aid must of necessity be generous. I may mention that one leading commercial ballroom in Dublin has headed the list of subscribers to this fund with the generous sum of £250 and other members of the executive have also indicated their willingness to subscribe very generously"

No wonder the Minister to-day spent so much time explaining his action in abolishing that dance tax.

The Minister knows as well as I know that the dancers do not get the benefit of that remission. He knows that a few days after he announced the abolition of that tax the ballroom owners received a letter from the Dance Band Association indicating that the dance bands intended to press for increased charges in respect of their bands. At the same time, the ballroom owners issued a statement indicating that they proposed to increase their charges for the renting of their ballrooms. Therefore, they are going to divide amongst them this sum of £140,000 which was being subscribed by the people attending dances. The Minister need not try to tell anybody that it was difficult for his Department to collect the dance tax. Everybody knows that a dance committee, before running a dance, must pay the tax— the tax is collected before the dance starts—and, therefore, there is no trouble, so far as the collection of the dance tax is concerned. At the same time as the Minister announced this remission, he announced that the loaf of bread was to be advanced by 2½d., from 6½d. to 9d.

This Budget, clearly, is one which has been dictated not alone by the Victorian mind which may exist within the ranks of the Fianna Fáil Party, but must have been dictated to them by Mr. Butler, who was visited very shortly before the Budget by the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Industry and Commerce. They went over to London on the invitation of the British Chancellor of the Exchequer. They came back, but they did not tell the House or the country what took place at the conversations, except that there was a friendly chat. The country is entitled to know what the nature of the discussion was. They left this country as Ministers of State and they spoke to a Minister of State in London. They came back here and gave no account of their conversation there. They did not even tell the House or the country——

Would the Deputy like me to publish what the late Sir Stafford Cripps said to Deputy MacBride and his Minister for Finance when they were over there?

He did not follow that line, did he?

Oh, yes, they did, and that is why this £600,000 has to be found this year.

The point I am making is that we should be told what took place at these London talks. It has been alleged that this is a Butler Budget, that it was dictated from London. If that is the case, the Minister ought to put that to us as an excuse or as an argument. He should at least tell us whether this Budget was dictated to him in London. If that is the case, it was dictated to him by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer who must take into account a heavy programme of rearmament and must also take into account the heavy costs arising out of the war. This country has no commitments in the matter of either the last war or rearmament.

What about the next war? Are you going in with Deputy Dillon in the next war?

The "Vanguard" will look after it.

We will leave that to the nation to decide.

I thought he had converted you to the idea of a war.

Possibly the Kremlin might be able to give us some information as to when it is coming.

It would be very interesting to know what Deputy Dillon's conditions were for joining the Fine Gael Party.

Surely it does not arise on this motion.

They are coming into the war—that is the idea.

Deputy Rooney, on the motion.

The present Government which undoubtedly has its basis in collusion have hung on to office since the election last year, although a majority of the people voted against them and they are still hanging on. Last year, this country imported more goods of a non-essential type than in any previous year. We have the Minister for Finance speaking about our adverse trade balance, but what is he doing about our adverse trade balance? Does he think for a moment that, by increasing the price of the loaf, of butter, of sugar and of tea on the poor, he is going to reduce our adverse trade balance? He knows that last year this country imported £204,000,000 worth of goods and that the bulk of these imports took place during the last six months of the year. In his statements so far, he has not indicated to the House any method which he proposes to adopt which will adjust our adverse trade balance.

Are we to assume that during the present year the total amount of goods imported will reach the colossal sum of £204,000,000, which will be very much in excess of the value of goods to be exported, either in the form of agricultural or manufactured goods or in the form of income from tourism. We should know from the Minister what he proposes to do regarding the country's finances in the matter of this adverse trade balance. The panic speeches which the Minister and his colleagues began to make last year when they came into Government in order to blackguard their predecessors and to make little of their achievements and try to make people forget what had been achieved during those years have brought about a lack of confidence in trade and an industrial slump. There is unemployment in particular in the industrial group. That is the consequence of the industrial slump brought about by the scaremongering and panic speeches of the present Ministers. All those speeches were designed to belittle the achievements of the inter-Party Government during its 38 months of office, but in those 38 months the inter-Party Government succeeded in putting an extra 38,000 persons into insurable employment.

The figures show that in 1947 the number of persons in insurable employment was 186,000 and that in 1951, when we were leaving office, the number was 286,000, the difference being 38,000 persons in new jobs. It took less than 12 months for 12,000 people to lose jobs. Unemployment amongst the workers is accelerating. It has accelerated particularly since the introduction of the Budget proposals because there is an inclination amongst employers to cut down on staff.

Remember that these Budget proposals will affect the wage earners and their families more drastically than employers and their families, because if an employer has four or five wage earners and is finding it difficult to face the impositions of the Budget he can immediately dispense with one or two of the employees and reduce his expenditure. The employee is thrown out into the ranks of the unemployed and to the labour exchange. He has not the protection that the employer has. The employer can cushion the effect of these Budget proposals by reducing staff but the wage earner must take the blow.

Can the Deputy explain why unemployment has decreased since the Budget?

It has not. I have the figures. It is 12,000 higher than this time last year.

The figures show a substantial increase since the Budget.

It is quite easy to explain that.

There is always a seasonal change at this time of the year.

For the benefit of Deputy Cowan, I would like to say that if he examines the statistics he will see that the figures for unemployment are always the highest between the months of November and 1st March. When the 1st March comes, the number of unemployed gradually comes downwards until the months of September or the middle of October. That is because there is a certain amount of activity on the land. There is a type of agricultural employment and there is always employment in connection with tourism. People are engaged in different ways in connection with the ordinary summer holidays.

Deputy Hickey thinks you are going too far. He wants to pull you up now.

I want to hear the truth being told.

The point I want to make is that even if the number of unemployed is on the decline since the 1st March, there are still 12,000 extra people without jobs. If we had, say, 55,000 people unemployed this time last year we have over 70,000 people unemployed now.

The last figure I saw was one of 59,000. I may be wrong, but I will check it up this week.

Probably the figure of 58,000 refers to male unemployed.

I may have made a mistake.

There is also a serious slump in the building trade. Captain Cowan himself knows that there are at least 600 carpenters signing now at the labour exchange.

Part of that is due in Dublin to the incompetence of the Dublin Corporation.

It extends throughout the country.

Of which Captain Cowan is a member.

It extends to every town and village in Ireland.

These people are signing at the labour exchange. They were in full employment last year.

In Dublin Corporation we have not been given the sites to build houses on. That is our trouble.

I would like to know from the Minister, when he is replying, what is his aim in this Budget. Is it towards devaluation or is it to counteract deflation? Perhaps the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Butler, has warned him that at some future date it is proposed to carry out further devaluation. Whether it is deflation or devaluation, the Minister should tell the House and the country what is the aim behind this Budget. The nation is being asked to pay more than is required and more than it should.

It has been pointed out that he is budgeting for millions of pounds—actually £10,000,000 more than he will need for the management of the services set out in the Book of Estimates. In the course of his Budget speech, the Minister referred to agricultural production and he complained that the level of production had not reached the 1938 level, but the Minister knows the measure of poverty that existed amongst the farmers during the years from 1932 to 1938. The first relief they got was as a result of the financial agreement of 1938 concluded by the British Government and this country after six years of economic war.

The Minister knows that in order to make ends meet the farmers and farm workers of the country had to work night and day producing goods which would enable them to scrape together sufficient money to pay the grocer and to pay for his other liabilities. That is the explanation for the measure of agricultural production which existed in 1938 compared with the level of production which exists at the present time.

They were producing more in 1938?

They were producing more. They had to.

Is it not a shame—

For instance, they were getting 6d. a gallon for creamery milk in 1938 but it took a good many gallons of milk at 6d. a gallon for the farmers to meet their ordinary liabilities to the grocer.

Even if they were not paying their rates?

Even if they could not pay their rates.

They were made to pay and they could pay. Deputy Dunne was trading on the fact that people would not buy their farms but he paid his rates in the end and so did his companions.

You could always get the emergency man to buy them.

Would Deputy Dunne think that the big farmer should get away with rates while the farm labourer has to pay them?

Labour supported that fight at that time.

They stood with us.

Do not make Deputy Burke uncomfortable. I know what Deputy Burke's feelings are on this subject.

It is nice that you are so considerate.

We have statements by Ministers that the remedy for the present problem is production and more production, but what are they doing about it? They have created a slump in industry by undermining confidence in commercial life. What have they done to increase production on the land? They have made no attempt to increase production in the factory or on the farm. Still they call out for more production. They should put before the country a programme aimed at increasing production.

Would the Deputy support compulsory tillage?

That is not the solution.

I am asking Deputy Rooney, not the know-all of the Fine Gael Party.

Deputy Rooney on the Finance Bill.

You produced more and gave the farmers less.

If you have the bailiffs down people have to do something. We have statements that the inter-Party Government was on a spending spree. If they were on a spending spree, they were spending that money on new houses. During their three years of office, they built 30,000 houses. The money had to be found. We found a situation on coming into office that Fianna Fáil would not face a programme of housing. The excuse they offered was that they were waiting for prices to fall.

How is that relevant?

It is in the brief and has to be said.

It has to be said but it is a sore point. We were busy building houses during our period of office.

And as soon as the Fianna Fáil sites ran out the building shut down.

What about the £11,000,000 building programme?

Fianna Fáil built 14 monuments in 14 years.

We left you 1,000 sites to start with. That was when Deputy Rooney was running Dublin County Council.

I was not on the county council until 1948.

If he was not, there was as good a man as he with as good a name.

The Minister need not mind. They did only what the Minister had prepared.

Then why criticise us for three years?

Deputy O'Sullivan should stop interrupting.

The Minister is interrupting.

I am trying to hear Deputy Rooney.

Perhaps Deputy O'Sullivan would go out and help Deputy MacEoin? Go on and help him.

If ever there was a honeymoon, a spending spree, in this country, it occurred since the 13th June last year, because, when the present Minister for Finance walked into his office, there was on the table £28,000,000 of American money.

There was not. There was £28,000,000 of debts to be paid.

Questions were asked in the House, and he was bound to give an answer which showed that the inter-Party Government, during three and a half years, spent £15,000,000 of the American money. That is the money which we were told was spent by the inter-Party Government. It was spent at an average rate of £4,000,000 a year. On that basis the inter-Party Government could have carried on with the American money for another seven years, and that was the programme. It was a ten-year programme designed to feed into the general capital investment programme a sum of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 per annum.

Something like the Indian meal during the famine.

That is too deep. The Deputy will have to try that on again. The American money is gone. There is no question of spending it now at the rate of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 per annum. It was gone, I believe, on the 1st February of this year, and we must carry on without the Marshall Aid which was made available to this country.

The Deputy is under a misapprehension. The Marshall Aid dollars were spent long before we came into office.

The sum of £26,000,000 was there when you came in.

And the duns on the doorstep for £6,000,000 before the end of June.

For debts you left behind.

You know that is not true.

The Minister will not get away with that.

Specify if it is true.

The Minister had the money in the kitty.

Specify.

We will give you full particulars.

The Minister told me there was a balance in the fund.

Month after month we had to meet your commitments, including the £3.6 millions as a result of the arbitration award which you did not budget for.

Including additional revenue.

There was no additional revenue.

Of course there was. You admitted that in the Budget speech.

The Minister for Finance was opposed to our system of borrowing for capital development but we now have the situation where he actually put before the House his intention of going ahead with a capital development and investment programme of £35,000,000. We did not attempt in any one year a programme so big. He is putting that programme before the House and he has not got the money to do it. He is pretending that he will do it. He can only pretend because he has not got the money to finance it and he is not prepared to borrow money. He has indicated that he proposes to go to the country for a national loan, and I hope that he will succeed. He indicated, I think, that he proposes to seek a loan of about £10,000,000, but £10,000,000 will fall very far short of the proposal to invest £35,000,000 in a capital development programme.

Coming to the domestic side of affairs we have the proposal to withdraw the subsidies on butter, tea, sugar and bread. Last year when the butter price went up from 2/8 to 2/10 per lb. there was an outcry all over the country and, of course, the leaders of that outcry were the Fianna Fáil Party. They pretended to the people at that time that if they were in office no such increase in the cost of living would take place, but they were only a fortnight in power when they put another 2d. per lb. on butter and brought it up to 3/-.

Why was that done?

The Minister for Agriculture promised 6d. a gallon to the creamery milk suppliers and gave them 1d. That is why.

The price of milk was increased in order to get more butter and avoid the need for importing foreign butter.

Would the Minister read the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture and see his views as to whether he is going to get more butter or not? Read his views on the manufacture of butter.

We cannot go on buying foreign butter.

Does Deputy Rooney agree with the removal of the subsidies?

Certainly not.

Deputy Mulcahy does. When he was in the last Cabinet, he wanted to remove the subsidies.

If the Deputy thinks that everytime he or Deputy Dr. ffrench-O'Carroll puts a question to Deputy Costello or to Deputy Mulcahy, they will get an answer, he is barking up the wrong tree. When responsible people ask questions, they will get answers.

If the conversation is finished, perhaps Deputy Rooney could proceed.

The Minister tells us that the price of butter was put up to 3/- per lb. in order to put an end to the importation of butter.

I did not say that. The Deputy asked why was the price of milk increased, and I said that it was done in order to get more butter.

In any event, it was done to get more butter. If that were the purpose, it was not achieved because there was more butter imported since the present Government came into office than, I suppose, since we became responsible for the administration of our own affairs in this country. In 1950 this country produced 750,000 cwt. of butter—more butter than our people could eat. The average consumption per head per week in 1950 was 13 oz.

Did that include the 32 Counties?

No, the Twenty-Six Counties.

A lot of it went over the Border. It is cheap.

The Deputy favours a high price for butter then?

In 1950, the last full year during which the inter-Party Government had control of the affairs of this country, our farmers produced more butter than we could eat. Actually, we had a surplus of butter. When the present Minister for Agriculture came into office, he declared that not one ounce of butter would be imported into this country after February or March, but we are still importing as much butter as ever from New Zealand at something like 3/1 per lb. The proposed price of 3/10 per lb. is obviously designed to reap a profit from imported butter. Of course, the extra charge for butter will reduce consumption. People with large families will stop consuming 13 oz. per head per week, which they were doing in 1950. They will cut down their consumption to a half pound per week or even less when the price of 3/10 per lb. comes into operation.

It was an insult to the old age pensioners to offer them 1/6 extra per week. Any old age pensioner, in his health, can sit down to 21 meals per week. It is proposed to give him 18d. —less than 1d. per meal—to enable him to meet the increased cost of essential commodities. The price of a 2lb. loaf of bread will go from 6½d. to 9d., an increase of 45 per cent.; butter will be 3/10 per lb.; there will be no such thing as being able to get tea at 2/8 per lb.; it will probably be in the region of 5/- or 5/6 per lb. The subsidised price for sugar is to be abolished and, of course, the old age pensioner is not supposed to enjoy the ordinary luxury of a pint, a nip of whiskey, or even a few cigarettes. All the relief given to him to cope with these new prices is 1/6 per week.

Why did the Deputy boycott the Social Welfare Bill last week when old age pensions were being discussed?

Because I felt that I was well represented; the Deputy was here.

You wanted the Labour Party to quarrel with Fianna Fáil while you kept outside the House.

When the Minister for Social Welfare was giving some figures he said that the 1/6 per week extra to the old age pensioner was based on an allowance of 8 oz. of butter per head per week. In other words, he said that 13 oz. per head per week, which the old age pensioner was consuming in 1950, was far too much— that he was living beyond his means and that 8 oz. ought to be sufficient for him. However, the dance tax has been removed and the old age pensioner can dance with delight.

There is no doubt that these increased prices are going to place an extra charge of 10/- per week on the average family. One will find a few people saying that this Budget is going to mean a saving for them of 7d. or 1/7 per week. That is on the food end of things alone. They do not take into consideration the tax on tobacco, on spirits and on beer, but taking food alone they are going to save a matter of a shilling or two and pence. However, for the average family this Budget is going to mean an extra expenditure of about 10/- per week. I heard Deputy Corish giving figures in this House which could not be contradicted in relation to the increased burden that would be put on many households having two or three children. The new price of flour will be 4/9 per stone. The previous figure was 2/8 per stone. That is a colossal increase and it will prove to be a heavy burden for the housewife who normally went to the shop and brought home a copule of stone of flour and baked healthy bread.

We are told now that the loaf will be whiter and that the extra charge will be justified, even on the grounds that the bread will be whiter. However, when it suited the Fianna Fáil Government during the emergency years, they quoted medical opinion as saying that the black bread was healthy bread and good for the nation. Now they are putting forward arguments that the nation is going to get whiter bread. They cannot have it both ways. Either the bread is better blacker, or it is better whiter, but it cannot be better both ways.

On a point of order, the Deputy has made a statement concerning the advocacy of a certain quality of bread by Fianna Fáil. Can he adduce some evidence of that statement?

That is not a point of order.

The Deputy made a statement, and I am asking him for evidence.

The Minister is an adept at trying to squeeze in something like that.

Has Deputy Rooney forgotten the statements made during the general election campaign?

We submit, a Cheann Comhairle, that this is not a proper point of order.

The Minister himself knows it is not a point of order.

I will leave that statement to the tribunal of public opinion.

You must be reading the Evening Herald.

I cannot be carrying quotations around with me since 1942 and 1943.

That is what you have been doing this evening.

If I had time to go back through the newspapers to 1943 I could go into the question, but my memory serves me quite well in this case. It is quite true. The Minister cannot deny it and neither can his colleagues.

Is it not obvious that wheaten bread is better than white bread?

That was the argument.

But white bread is more palatable to some people than wheaten bread.

Yes, but when they wanted the people to eat black bread it was healthy bread, and now when they want the people to eat dearer bread white bread is healthy bread.

The question does not arise on the Finance Bill.

The price of flour is certainly going to hit large families hardest. There is an increase from 2/8 to 4/9½ a stone, an increase of 2/1½ a stone.

That was in the white market. What was it in the black market?

Ask the Cork Deputies about the black market. The Deputies in Cork were complaining about the black market price of butter when it was 3/6 a lb. They said the inter-Party Government legalised the black marketing of butter at 3/6 a lb.

That is not relevant to the Finance Bill.

Deputy Cowan provoked him.

There is no use in talking about the black market when you read this election address which was responsible for getting Deputy MacCarthy into this House.

Mr. Lynch (Cork):

Deputy MacCarthy?

It was responsible for bringing Deputy MacCarthy in here with Deputy Lynch.

Is that the real address?

This is an extract.

And not denied.

It cannot be denied.

Mr. Lynch

It is not necessary to deny it. It is a true statement.

You will have to deny it at the next election. To return to the Finance Bill, petrol has been increased by 4d. a gallon.

What did Deputy MacCarthy say?

The election address is not relevant.

It was quoted often enough in this House.

Deputy Lynch will give you a copy. It is proposed to put an extra 4d. a gallon on petrol. That is going to be a heavy burden, particularly on agriculture. We remember some years ago when the inter-Party Government increased the tax on petrol there was an uproar in this House about the increased cost of petrol for agricultural tractors. The result of that agitation was that the Minister for Finance decided that in the interests of agriculture, agricultural production and production of food, he would allow a rebate of 6d. a gallon for petrol used in agricultural tractors. This extra 4d. a gallon must be paid by the farmers who are using agricultural tractors in connection with food production. The result is that the petrol tax will amount to something like £1 a week, £52 a year, on the farmer engaged in the growing of wheat and the production of food generally.

Then we have here the allowance of £1? million to the manufacturers of tobacco. This tax has been gathered from the people's pockets and handed over to the tobacco manufacturers, for what it is hard to understand. Certainly, an excuse for it has been put up, but this tobacco was bought years ago, and it is proposed now to collect £1? million from the pockets of the taxpayers and hand it over to the manufacturers of tobacco. Sixpence on the packet of cigarettes, plus 1d., makes it 7d., and the 1d. is for the tobacco manufacturers.

You are aware that Deputy Norton's Prices Advisory Tribunal recommended that?

You did not have to accept the recommendation, anyway.

You were going to have an efficient system of price control according to the 17 points.

We had some years ago a nutritional survey.

We had. We started it.

The nation was presented with a nutritional survey, and it was indicated at that time that there was a rather low standard of living amongst our people prior to 1947, that bread appeared to be the staple diet, and that there was not very much variety in the matter of food. This Budget is certainly going to bring the bread and scrape standard of living back amongst the wage earners in this country.

The bread and what?

The bread and spread.

You are getting very Lancashire now.

I am sorry, bread and spread, if that will suit Deputy Cowan. But there is a lot of people in Fairview who will learn what bread and spread means when this Budget goes into force, and they will not need any explanation or description of it from Deputy Cowan. They will be able to experience it for themselves, and they will be able to tell Deputy Cowan about it.

I think the Deputy said we will have no more bread and spread.

We are going to get it again. We departed from the bread and spread standard of living when the inter-Party Government came into office and improved the standard of living for our people.

It has been said that as a nation we have not had a square meal since Essex ravaged Munster.

I never read about it.

There is a hell of a standard to be made up.

Whether there is or not, the fact remains that wage earners were able to have a decent meal of bacon and egg when the inter-Party Government was in office.

The bacon and egg have certainly disappeared from the breakfast table since last June.

It was not very long on the breakfast table.

Nevertheless, the average price of bacon has gone up 1/- a lb. since last year. That, of course, was the result of the decontrolling of retail prices. Similarly, the price of meat has gone up beyond the capacity of the housewife.

The Deputy is travelling widely from the Bill before the House.

Surely the Deputy does not suggest that the hens have stopped laying since Fianna Fáil came back to office?

I would not be surprised if the shock of Fianna Fáil coming back to office stopped them from laying.

This is a very serious matter.

The Deputy ought to treat it seriously then.

On the 1st July the cost of living is going to go up 17 per cent. It is going to be a great hardship on many people who must bear these increased prices for essential food. Unemployment continues to increase and emigration has accelerated particularly during the last 12 months. Many times in this House the question of emigration was brought up, and emigration was used as an issue. It was criticised, and it was even the subject of a Birmingham speech which proved to be a boomerang. The Army, of course, has been enlarged, and it has absorbed an extra 2,000 persons.

The question is if they had not gone into the Army would they have any employment, would they have work either in the factory or in the field? Considering that so many people are losing employment and that the unemployment figure has gone up so much, it is only right to assume that this extra 2,000 people would be unemployed if they had not joined the Army.

I hope the Minister will make a statement which will restore confidence in the country. Business is at its lowest ebb, and the only activity that is likely to improve business during the coming months is the expected increase in the number of tourists who will come to this country. Owing to the restricted allowance available to them for foreign travel, they are almost forced to come to this country. It is probable that the tourists will be the means of creating a measure of prosperity, and of providing more employment during the coming summer months, but they will be with us only a few months, and when the tourist trade declines the position will be just as it is to-day. I hope that the Minister will do something to improve the position of the country and make things easier, particularly for the weaker sections of the community, the wage earners, who are being asked to bear the heaviest burden. I will conclude——

Mr. Lynch

Hear, hear!

I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary is glad that I am about to conclude.

You are hurting him.

He did not like to hear the Cork election address. That is what annoyed him. We had recent announcements of other increases and it is only right to ask the Minister whether this Government intend to do anything about the rising cost of living.

Surely the Deputy does not propose to discuss the cost of living on the Finance Bill?

It will probably go up.

The effect of the Finance Bill will be to increase it.

He said he was going to conclude.

I am if I can think up anything against Deputy Cowan.

Do you mean to say you will have any difficulty?

I shall conclude by asking the Minister to explain to the public why his Party took part in deceiving the public during the last general election.

The question of the last general election does not arise on the Finance Bill, to which the Deputy will have to confine himself.

The Government are responsible for the Finance Bill and I am questioning the manner in which they came into office. They are imposing upon the people something for which the people did not vote. If the people were presented last year with a 17-point programme which did not include item 15—to maintain the subsidies, to control the prices of essential foodstuffs and to operate an efficient system of price regulation for all necessary scarce commodities—the Government would not be in office.

They secured support by undertaking to control the prices of essential commodities and to maintain subsidies. Instead of that, day after day they began decontrolling the retail prices of essential commodities, particularly foodstuffs, and on top of that they have now introduced a Budget proposing to withdraw the subsidies. The whole basis of their existence is one of dishonesty and deception and it is only fair to demand from the Minister the real explanation as to why he withdrew the subsidies and decontrolled prices when in fact the Government gave an undertaking that they would control prices and maintain the subsidies. These are the questions which are in the public mind. The public feel that they have been deceived and the Minister should give them an opportunity of expressing their disapproval of his action and the action of his Government at the earliest possible date.

Since the introduction of this year's Budget many Opposition Deputies have allowed themselves the luxury of identifying themselves with the suffering people. They have had a field day up and down the country worrying about the poor man's pint and the pensioner's smoke. In fact their sympathy extended to every section of the community. Having listened to their wails, I am filled with admiration of their fortitude on the day of the Budget statement. On that day, as increase after increase in taxation was announced every Opposition Deputy, with great fortitude, smiled until towards the end there was a broad smile on the face of every Opposition Deputy. It is hard, therefore, to regard seriously their various speeches about the hardships of the Budget. That is not saying that I do not agree that this is a hard and harsh Budget because it is that.

I feel sympathy, as my colleagues do, with the people of the country at having to bear such heavy taxation which could easily have been spread over the last few years. We regret having to impose such heavy taxation on the people, but the regret is something like the regret which you feel when a person has to go to work on a Monday morning. No matter how much we regret it, it has to be done because it is absolutely essential for us to put our financial affairs in order.

Listening to the speakers from the Opposition Front Bench I was disappointed, but not surprised, to find that after this continued debate, and when the smoke has cleared, we are left with no constructive suggestions for an alternative method of getting money for our Exchequer other than the suggestion of having a general election and the almost schizoid vagueness of a ten-minute speech that can produce money at the rate of £1,000,000 a minute. I am not surprised that it is now necessary for one of the leaders of the Fine Gael Party to produce money at that rate since the Party has joined Deputy Dillon, because on his own confession he was capable of spending $5,000,000 in one afternoon. I presume it is no more than the shock of this prospective spending that has caused the wild talk that money can be taken out of the air at the rate of £1,000,000 a minute. It is not indicated whether the shadow Minister would equip himself with all the impedimenta of the magician during this process, but if he believes that what he says is possible perhaps he would be a little more constructive and say how it can be done.

So short a time after a general election, nobody in the country can have much sympathy with a man who will make a statement like that, but stand shyly back and withhold the useful information, stipulating that there be a general election and that he be again returned to office. It is unreasonable to expect the people to accept his word for his ability in this respect, without any indication as to how he proposes to put it into effect. It is particularly difficult for them to accept it when they reflect on the Budget which Deputy McGilligan brought in last year and remember that there was a deficit of £6.7 million in respect of which this year we are paying a sum of £330,000 in interest. They must, of course, suspect that a ten-minute speech by the originator of last year's Budget will involve the borrowing of money.

Since the present Budget, I have moved a good deal amongst the people, and although I have heard many suggestions, I do not believe anybody believes in borrowing. In fact, I am convinced that nobody wants to borrow. I have heard many criticisms of the Budget and many alternative suggestions, but the alternatives were for alternative taxation. You had the example of the married man suggesting that the bachelor should be taxed: the publican suggesting that the bicycle should be taxed, and the teetotaller suggesting that further taxation should be put on drink. In fact, the attitude can be summed up to the effect that the people believe that taxation is essential, that somebody should be taxed, but they themselves do not want to be taxed. I think that is a very natural reaction. However, nobody with whom I spoke suggested that we should borrow.

While on the subject of alternative taxation, it might, perhaps, be well to point out to the people that the Minister had at his disposal a team of experts to advise him and to examine the revenue possibilities of any particular form of taxation. We must accept it that these people would not neglect to tax something which would yield a reasonable revenue without imposing undue hardship on the people. To explain fully their examination of all the possible sources of revenue would be too expansive. The people must accept it that each article was examined from the point of view of the amount of revenue it would yield and also of the cost of collecting the revenue. We can be assured that our officers, as well as those in every other country, seek to tax only those articles which would impose the least hardship on the people while at the same time yielding sufficient revenue.

Sufficient revenue is the important point when dealing with the illusive luxury tax. Everybody believes that there is some luxury but nobody seems to think there is any luxury in his own life. People believe that there is some nebulous group somewhere who enjoy luxuries and that we should tax that group of people. We have heard officially that what can be described as "luxuries" are enjoyed by very few people and that to attempt to get much revenue from them would probably prevent their purchase or use at all. Therefore, it is very unfair of representatives of the people to keep whipping up the idea that some group of people who are supposed to be living in luxury should be taxed. That is not so.

Deputy Rooney said that the large family will suffer because of the increase in the price of flour. My information, from where I come, is that the large family has suffered hitherto because of the rationing and because of having to buy flour and other essential commodities off the ration at enormous prices. In fact, large families will benefit very much by this Budget. The same Deputy mentioned emigration as if this problem were solely the result of the election of a Fianna Fáil Government. It depends how far back one looks, I suppose, but over the last 100 years County Clare has lost 200,000 people—and most of those were lost before Fianna Fáil ever got into office. The continued emigration of our people is a social disease which we all wish could be cured but it will never be cured by bouncing the baby from one Government to another and saying: "Emigration is your fault", and retorting: "No, it is your fault." It requires study to discover what can stem the tide of emigration of an essentially useful part of our population.

The increased price of butter is related to a number of factors, one of which is the increase in the price of milk. While the increase in the price of butter is to the detriment of a certain section of our community it is essential for another section that the price of milk be kept up. The small farmer, in particular, depends on a very limited income from the sale of milk. If the price of milk is not maintained he will have to turn to other means of earning and so may do away with milk production in this country. If the price of milk is not maintained, we shall be forced to look for butter from other sources. I move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 14th May, 1952.
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