On the motion for the Adjournment, Deputy Dockrell gave notice that he would raise the subject matter of Questions No. 33 and 34 on the Order Paper of Tuesday, 17th June.
Adjournment Debate—Export of Horses.
First of all, I should like to say that I regret the necessity of having to raise this matter on the Adjournment and to bring the Minister for Agriculture in here at this late hour. I know he is a busy man and he has a big Department to look after, but this is a matter of very great importance which has aroused the deepest interest amongst all sections of the community. It is because I wish to put certain facts and points of view before the Minister and before our people that I have taken this step. I think the Minister has said that he has not seen the necessity for ordering a cessation or a prohibition of this trade. I shall just briefly go over some of the facts which have come to light.
In February, 1951, the s.s. Clarina left Limerick for Birkenhead carrying 71 horses on board. When it arrived at Birkenhead 21 horses had died on board, seven had to be shot and one died on the quayside. That is 29 horses out of 71 died as a result of the voyage. That aroused wide public interest and indignation at the time. Unfortunately that is not an isolated instance. Many other instances have occurred. During the winter months on every voyage some horses have died. I say without fear of contradiction that you cannot transport horses across water, especially during the winter time without causing them cruelty. Horses, when they become seasick cannot vomit and apparently suffer very greatly as a result. Then when they arrive at foreign ports they are subjected in many cases to rough handling. They are spoken to, first of all, in a language they do not understand. Perhaps that does not involve very great cruelty or hardship but still it is something that is not very pleasant for these animals, nearly all of which are accustomed to being gently cared for and well handled. Irish folk generally are kind to their animals and many of them are very great horse lovers.
In many cases these horses are herded into trucks on arrival at foreign ports. I might cite one case where a consignment of horses was brought to Paris, and eye-witnesses saw the trucks being opened up. The very unpleasent conditions inside these trucks have been graphically described by one gentleman. He saw a stallion on the ground with a number of other horses on top of it and milling about. The animal was beaten to its feet, and it was seen that its hindquarters were severely damaged. These cases have been attested, and the details have appeared in the Manchester Guardian. At the present moment a series of articles in regard to the same matter are appearing in the Irish Times. Similar testimoney has been given by a number of other people, for instance, by a Mrs. Edkins, who went across and described the conditions there, and a Mr. Crowe, who also saw what happened. These witnesses have testified to the rough handling and cruelty to which the horses were subjected. Then the conditions in the abattoir at Vaugirard baffle description. Mares in foal have been brought in there and killed. Photographs were taken, one of which showed the foetus of a foal lying on the ground. We do not know whether that belonged to an Irish animal, but we know that Irish horses have been brought there. We know from that photograph and other photographs that the authorities at Vaugirard are not so squeamish or soft-hearted as to refuse to slaughter mares in foal. These conditions have been attested.
I think the Minister himself recognised last July that hardship and cruelty existed because he brought in an Order that ships carrying horses were not to sail in rough weather, that mares in foal were not to go, and that the animals were to have the shoes taken from their hind feet so that they would not injure one another. That in itself shows, in the first place, that the Minister is more soft-hearted in this matter than perhaps he realises himself, and also that he and his officials recognise that a certain amelioration of the conditions is necessary. I would add in connection with these reports which have shocked so many people, that one particular case related to an incident in an abattoir outside London, where an electric pump was used on half-killed horses.
Questions were raised in the House of Commons, and the Minister for Food, Major Lloyd George, did not deny it. That, in itself, is an indication of the accuracy of the statements in these articles. It is very difficult to get complete proof of anything but when you have a number of people testifying to the same thing and when you have a Minister standing up in his own Parliament accepting statements made in a series of parliamentary questions, it is a very great pointer to the fact that the statements in those articles are accurate.
What is the remedy for this condition? The remedy is to stop the export of live horses for slaughter. I would not be foolish enough to ask the Minister to take a step like that if it meant an enormous loss in revenue to this country, but I do not believe that there will be any loss of revenue. On the contrary, I believe that the present method of exporting horses on the hoof is not only cruel but is extremely wasteful. I see no reason, and those engaged in the trade itself see no reason, why we should not set up a dressed carcase trade in Ireland. Then we could see that our horses are slaughtered in a proper condition under our own control and we could make the necessary regulations to see that the meat is dealt with properly and exported labelled plainly as horse meat.
The Department of Agriculture seem to have the idea that if we had a dressed carcase trade in horse meat it would interfere with the beef trade. I fail to see that. The continental buyers in the meat trade know perfectly well the difference between beef and horse flesh, even if there were people dishonest enough to attempt to sell horse flesh as beef. When you look at the retail end of the trade, in France and Belgium horse flesh is sold in special shops so that the likelihood of its damaging our beef trade is quite unlikely. Then there is the further fact that in sending horses on the hoof we lose the valuable by-products that that trade would bring us. It has been said in fact that we are extremely foolish not to do this trade ourselves.
People are asking why a trade which is so abhorrent to the great majority of our country folk should be carried on. I think it started with inertia, then vested interests, then the fear of interfering with any of our other meat trades. This is held by competent people in the food business as being something which would not occur. At any rate, this trade is going on at the rate of 700 horses a week. The country is being denuded of horses and there is a very real danger that we may find ourselves without sufficient horses, which would be a very serious matter if another war broke out.
There is an enormous amount of money being made out of this trade. I understand that there is a non-national of this country making over £1,000 a week out of it. I do not mind anybody making £1,000 a week but I do not think the fair name of this country should be taken away for the sake of a handful of people who are making money when really a large amount of employment could be given if the trade were handled in a logical as well as in a humane fashion. That is the way I should like the Minister to deal with this matter, to encourage the setting up of a dressed meat trade and bring in an Order somewhat on the lines of the Order in other countries prohibiting the export of horses under £80 in value and horses over 15 years of age. That is one method of dealing with it, but it is only a partial method.
This is not an agitation by a number of cranks. It has really reached serious proportions. Animal lovers feel very deeply on this subject. The matter has been raised in other countries as well as here. We do run the risk of losing our reputation for the sake of a trade which we do not really agree with and which none of us feel is right. I ask the Minister to bear my plea in mind and to realise that this feeling is very widespread all over Ireland. It is not a matter of an agitation by a few Dublin people. Every part of Ireland is concerned in this and all our people will thank the Minister if he will put an end to this horrible trade.
I accept the fact that the officials of this country are doing their job in an efficient manner in examining the animals going out of the country, but I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that once these horses are shipped the officials have no further control over the conditions which they have to go through before they are finally slaughtered. Surely the articles which have been published were not written without having some foundation in fact? The export of 700 horses a week out of Ireland will leave us in a critical condition if we are faced with an emergency in which we will be unable to get oils and petrol, etc., to run machinery. The Minister should stop the export of these horses.
In the light of the evidence, we must accept the fact that there is considerable cruelty in the slaughter of these horses on the Continent. If we are to sell horses for the purpose of human consumption, and the consumption of horse fiesh is not a new thing in Europe, why not slaughter them at home? They can be slaughtered here under the eyes of the departmental inspectors in humane conditions without taking a shilling out of the pocket of any Irish citizen. If we had a factory here for the dressing of horse meat, the horse dealers who are buying these horses for export would still have to buy the horses just as the pig dealers buy pigs for the bacon factories. I can see no reason why we should not have a factory here, and I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter. After all, it would give employment here, the by-products would be useful, and it would put an end to what we all feel is to a certain extent against the wishes of the Irish people. Anyone who has been in any way associated with horses has a high regard and a great love for them. We have a tradition for breeding the best horses in the world. The draught blood is the real blood behind the hunter and our hunters are famous throughout the world. That draught blood is now being exported out of the country every week. I would ask the Minister to stop the export of horses and arrange to have them slaughtered here instead.
The ground has been very adequately covered by the Deputies who have spoken on this matter. There is one point I would like to emphasise. Public indignation is not merely demanding the cessation of this trade. It is suggesting that the Government should ensure that a perfectly sound reasonable commercial alternative is adopted. Let there be no mistake about it. If the continental countries are prepared to pay us £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 a year for our horses, they are making a great deal more profit over and above that sum. That profit can be made here.
I believe that the root of this whole problem is a misunderstanding of it and a fear in relation to our beef trade, a fear that is wholly unjustified. We have been fortunate enough so far in this country not to have found it necessary to eat horse flesh. Horse flesh on the Continent is an established fact, and I have here a price list from France which shows that first-quality horse flesh is sold at a higher price than is beef at the present time. We could definitely establish this trade ourselves. That could be done without any danger whatsoever to our beef trade.
Mr. Byrne
I merely want to say that I support wholeheartedly the case that has been made.
I doubt very much if I can go into this question as fully as I would like to in the time at my disposal. There has been a certain agitation here for a number of years in relation to the export of horses, and certain people have voiced objections to such an export. I wonder if those who object to that export can really put forward a reasonable case.
I have read the articles that appeared in the Manchester Guardian. So far as I know there was no evidence of cruelty either on board or on rail, no more cruelty that can be witnessed at any fair down the country. One animal was described as coming in a lorry from Galway. A description was given of her being loaded on the boat, taken to Dieppe, placed in a railway wagon there in the very same way in which the animal would have been treated if it had been travelling by rail here. This particular case has been held out as evidence of cruelty. I wonder what is behind all this. On several occasions during the past 12 months questions have been addressed to me in relation to the export of horses. I have answered those questions. I want to know what the objecttions are. Is it an objection to the transport of the horses? Is it an objection as to alleged cruelty in the boats?
What about the 39 that died at sea?
Mr. Walsh
That was in one case. Those horses were at sea for 70 hours. The mortality statistics for horses in transit from here to the Continent is .07, seven animals out of 1,000. That is the number of casualties.
It is more than that.
Mr. Walsh
These are facts—not imaginary statements. It has not been suggested that there is cruelty in the lorries. Is it suggested there is cruelty in rail transport? Once these horses leave the country we have no further responsibility for them just as we have no responsibility for our sheep and cattle shipped to other countries. Are certain people trying to place horses in a higher sphere as compared with sheep or cattle? That is something with which I would never agree. I have heard of "Minstrel Girl". I have also heard of "Mary's lamb". Is there any difference between the two? Which is the greater pet? You have lovers of horses, lovers of cows, lovers of sheep.
And of greyhounds.
Mr. Walsh
Why should not some people come in here horror-stricken at the idea of slaughtering a lamb? There is nothing more wrong in slaughtering a horse than there is in slaughtering a lamb. If we start placing animals in the same category as human beings we will all be bordering on lunacy.
Is the Minister not interested in the method of slaughter?
Mr. Walsh
I am not interested at all. I am talking about the cruelty, we are told, exists in the transport of horses. We have been told there is cruelty in France. We have heard nothing about cruelty in England, but I saw an article in this morning's paper stating that an electric pump is used on horses in England. Yet, France is the only country held up to us by these horror-stricken people, because of the way horses are slaughtered there.
I mentioned the electric pump when I was speaking not five minutes ago.
Mr. Walsh
As I have said, once the horses leave this country we have no further responsibility.
Mr. Byrne
Why should we not have?
Mr. Walsh
It is not the people who are talking here that are concerned. It is the farmers down the country who, if the export of horses is stopped, will lose £30 or £40 per animal. My concern is for the farmer and not for anybody else.
That is the argument they used when they sold slaves during the slave trade.
Mr. Walsh
Does Deputy Dockrell compare a horse to a slave, a human being? If he does, then that clarifies the position. Is there any difference between a horse, cow or a sheep? Let us be clear about it.
Cruelty is cruelty, no matter where it happens.
Mr. Walsh
We are exporting cattle, and at times we have greater losses in cattle in exportation than we have in horses. The same is true of sheep. But there is no one to stand up here and make a protest in relation to those.
But we are starting a dressed meat trade.
Mr. Walsh
The danger of a dressed meat trade in relation to horses is that we have over a number of years built up an export trade for our cattle and for carcase and processed meat. There is nothing to prevent an evil-minded person, if we go into the horse-dressed meat trade, producing horse meat and selling it in continental countries, or even in Britain, as prime Irish beef.
I submit any continental housewife would know the difference straightaway.
Mr. Walsh
It does not matter whether she would or would not. We will not run the risk, just because there are people here who believe that there is unnecessary cruelty in relation to horses.
If the trade is supervised there will be no danger.
Mr. Walsh
I have been among horses for 40 years. I have met good horses and bad horses. I have met as many horses as one could possibly meet. I have a great regard for them, but I have no greater regard for them than I have for the cow. To me they are both animals, and people who try to place one in a different category from the other leave me with very little regard for what they say. If there is cruelty in the transport of horses there is also cruelty in the transport of cattle.
Stop the cruelty then.
Mr. Walsh
It has not been established that there is cruelty. It has been agreed here, even by Deputy Dockrell, that, in one case, there were 28 casualties on a particular boat. That boat, the Clarina, should have been at sea for 24 hours. Because of a storm, she was at sea for 70 hours. I have shown that the mortality statistics are very low. It seems strange that we should adopt this attitude in relation to horses, but not in relation to other animals or to human beings.
We do not send human beings away for slaughter. We merely send them away.
Mr. Walsh
There is a way of dealing with this matter. If certain people believe there is cruelty in the slaughter of horses why do they not make representations through their own organisation to the French authorities in order to have that cruelty minimised if it does exist? As Minister for Agriculture I am responsible for seeing that the farmers get the best prices they can, and I will certainly not do something which would reduce the prices they are getting for their horses.
Does the Minister not agree that there is even now a shortage of horses and the small farmer finds it very difficult to buy an ordinary working horse and he has to pay a great deal more for such an animal than he did in the past. The Minister's argument, therefore, cuts both ways.
Mr. Walsh
I know that for every tractor that comes into the country three horses go off the land. Farmers are not in a position to keep tractors and horses at the same time and the tendency is to go in more for mechanisation.
They will be sorry for it.
Mr. Walsh
That is true but that is the tendency. Even our small farmers are going in for mechanisation. Will any Deputy get up here and say that the farmer must take a lesser price for his horses than he is getting at the present time? If the export of horses is stopped the price of horses will be reduced from £45 to £30 and less.
The Dáil adjourned at 11.5 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 19th June, 1952.