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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Oct 1952

Vol. 134 No. 1

Financial Resolution No. 1. - Excise Duty on Driving Licences.

I move:—

(1) That there shall be charged, levied and paid on and by every person who on or after 23rd day of October, 1952, takes out a driving licence under the Road Traffic Act, 1933 (No. 11 of 1933), an excise duty of £1.

(2) That the said duty shall be charged, levied and paid on the taking out of the licence and shall be collected by and paid to the licensing authority and shall be paid by that authority into the Exchequer in accordance with such directions as may from time to time be given by the Minister for Finance.

(3) That for the purpose of levying the said duty, a licensing authority shall have within their county or county borough the same powers, duties and liabilities as the Revenue Commissioners and their officers have with respect to duties of excise, and the enactments relating to duties of excise and to punishments and to penalties in connection therewith shall apply accordingly.

(4) That sums paid into the Exchequer and penalties recovered as aforesaid shall, for the purpose of Section 2 of the Roads Act, 1920, be deemed to have been paid into the Exchequer under that Act.

(5) That the said duty is in lieu of the duty under Section 21 of the Finance Act, 1926 (No. 35 of 1926), and the latter duty shall accordingly cease to be charged as from the 23rd day of October, 1952.

(6) It is hereby declared that it is expedient in the public interest that this Resolution shall have statutory effect under the Provisional Collection of Taxes Act, 1927 (No. 7 of 1927).

My statement will cover Resolution No. 2.

Do I understand that the Minister is going to cover both Resolutions in his statement? Any speeches which follow the Minister's can, I take it——

Follow the same course, of course.

The Minister for Finance informed the House in his Budget statement in April last that legislation would be introduced later in the year to increase the rates of motor taxation.

The Government's proposals for the revision of motor taxation, with which the Financial Resolutions are concerned, were, with one exception, explained in a White Paper published in August last. Their purpose is to increase the contribution of motor vehicles users to the cost of road works in order to provide for the increased road maintenance and improvement which the increased use of motor vehicles has necessitated.

Since 1920 the proceeds of motor taxation (which was revised in that year) have been paid into the Road Fund from which grants for road maintenance and improvement are made to the road authorities. With the growing importance of motor traffic, the share of road expenditure met on its behalf by the State continued to increase. In 1926 the rates of motor vehicle duty were comprehensively reviewed. There has been no comprehensive review of motor taxation since 1926 but in the meantime conditions so far as roads and road traffic are concerned have altered out of all knowledge.

The figures given in the White Paper for the growth of motor traffic in recent years speak for themselves. The overall numbers of vehicles registered has increased from 73,813 in 1939 to 155,982 in 1951. A preliminary examination of returns of the census taken in August, 1952, shows that this figure has further increased to 167,798 vehicles. As the White Paper points out, there is more than an absolute increase in the number of vehicles involved. The average vehicle is faster and heavier, and is driven more miles per week. The main roads must be maintained and made safe to take the increasing volume of modern traffic. Again, motor traffic is now resorting in an increasing degree to roads which have never been conditioned to bear it. Approximately 34,000 miles of our county roads are still in an unsurfaced condition. Many of our important bridges have to be reconstructed or replaced. In the cities new and improved arteries are needed to deal with traffic congestion. Apart from improvement works, insufficient money is being spent on road maintenance.

Local authorities, on the whole, have continued to make increased provision for their roads; nevertheless, there is a limit to what they can be asked to do. Local rates have doubled since 1939.

The income of the Road Fund in the present financial year is estimated at £3,500,000, from which must be deducted £120,000 for administration expenses and £287,600 for loan charges, leaving £3,092,400 available for the payment of grants during the year. A sum of £2,286,000 was borrowed in recent years to supplement the income of the fund in the payment of grants. In addition grants allocated but not paid at the beginning of the financial year amounted to £1,830,000. The sum borrowed will be repaid by the annuity of £287,600 over a period of ten years. Grants amounting to £3,310,000 have been allocated in the present financial year bringing the total of these and grants allocated but not paid at the beginning of the year to £5,140,000 against which a sum of £3,092,400 is estimated to be available in the fund for payments in the current financial year.

It will be seen that, while the increased number of registered vehicles means an addition to the income of the fund, that addition does not correspond with the increase in the scope and cost of necessary road works. As stated in the White Paper, the average cost of materials, machinery and labour for roads is now over two-and-a-half times the cost in 1939. The position, therefore, briefly, is that the Road Fund cannot meet the demands of 1952 on the basis of rates of taxation fixed in 1926.

What about 1947?

The owners of motor vehicles represent the section of the community whose use of the roads gives rise to the need for extra expenditure and who will benefit most by the extra expenditure. Better roads should bring economies in the operation costs of vehicles which will in the long run more than offset the extra taxation.

The proposals are as follows:

Driving licences: It is proposed that the duty on the taking out of a driving licence will be increased from 10/- to £1, with effect from to-morrow. Driving licences remain in force for a period of 12 months from the date of issue, and in this way they differ from the motor vehicle licences, which relate to fixed periods. This proposal, for obvious reasons, is not one of which advance notice could have been given. The additional duty is estimated to bring in revenue of about £135,000 per annum.

Private cars: It is proposed to increase the duties on private cars by sums ranging from £1 per annum on the smaller cars to £2 per annum on the larger cars. In proposing these increases regard has been had to the increases made as from 1st January, 1948. At the same time it is intended to introduce a new method of calculating horse-power, under which the basis will be the cubic capacity of the engine instead of the diameter of the cylinder, as hitherto; this will be done by regulations. The net effect is expected to represent additional revenue of £120,000 per annum.

Motor cycles: Duty will be calculated according to the cubic capacity of the engine instead of the unladen weight of the vehicle. Low rates are introduced for the engine-assisted pedal cycle and the auto-cycle, while special provision is made for pedestrian-controlled vehicles (milk trolleys, etc.). It is anticipated that these provisions will involve a loss of £3,000 per annum.

Goods Vehicles: Duties on these vehicles will be increased by up to 50 per cent. in the case of the lighter vehicles and by higher percentages in the case of the heavy vehicles, which cause damage to the roads out of all proportion to the duty at present paid on their use. The new rates will be graduated by quarter-tons instead of tons. The extra duty in respect of trailers will be increased and graduated according to the weight of the drawing vehicle. The concession allowed to vehicles assembled in Ireland from Irish parts and to an extent approved by the Minister for Industry and Commerce is extended to vehicles not exceeding 1½ tons in weight unladen. The annual rate of duty on these vehicles will be £10 lower than the rate applicable to vehicles not so assembled. The net effect of the proposals regarding goods vehicles is expected to increase revenue by about £380,000 per annum.

Tractors: No increase in duty is proposed for the 5/- class of vehicle. A single rate of £8 will replace the rates of £6 and £10 respectively for tractors used for agricultural haulage, for which a more precise definition is proposed. The rates of duty on general haulage tractors will be increased by 50 per cent. It is estimated that an extra £31,000 per annum will be produced by these proposals.

Large public service vehicles: The rates of duty on large public service vehicles, that is, buses, will be increased by 20 per cent., to yield an estimated additional £34,000 per annum.

Small public service vehicles: It is proposed to restore the relationship which existed between the rates of duty on these vehicles and those on private cars prior to 1948. Hackneys will therefore be liable to duty at the same rates as private cars, subject to a limit at 20 horse-power. Taxis will be liable to duty at the rates applicable to private cars, subject to a limit at ten horse-power. These proposals are estimated to yield an additional £56,000 per annum.

Hearses: Motor hearses will be liable to duty at the rates applicable to private vehicles, subject to a limit at 12 horse-power. It is estimated that this will involve an annual loss of approximately £4,000.

Trade licences: The rates of duty on these will be increased by 50 per cent., giving an extra £7,500 per annum.

Road construction vehicles: These will be exempt from duty.

Apart from the increased duty on driving licences the changes are proposed to come into effect from 1st January next. In addition it is intended that payments will be made by Government Departments to the Road Fund in respect of the use as from that date of their vehicles on public roads. The payments, estimated to produce in all approximately £70,000 per annum, will be borne on the Votes for the Departments and offices concerned.

The effect of all the proposals mentioned will be to provide the Road Fund with an estimated increased revenue of about £830,000 per annum in a full financial year.

The basis of distribution of the increased Road Fund income which will be available for road works as a result of these proposals will be a matter for determination from year to year, with due regard to the annual road works proposals of local authorities.

It would be difficult and, perhaps, inappropriate for me at this stage to attempt to forecast in detail the actual lines which the improvement and maintenance schemes of future years should follow. So far as I, personally, am concerned, I visualise an increase in the scope of road improvement schemes on county roads as well as main roads, but I do not regard the access of such additional money as we may obtain as affording any justification for ambitious schemes not warranted by current traffic trends. All the available funds for many years to come will be needed for essential improvements and for conserving the national asset which is represented by the capital already invested in our road system.

The Minister has omitted to tell the House the income derived from petrol taxation. Surely that has a direct bearing on the questions at issue?

I am dealing now with the Road Fund and taxation which has always gone into the Road Fund for the purposes which I have tried to outline.

Is the money derived from the increased petrol taxation not derived from the motor cars which use the public highways? Could that money not be devoted to the Road Fund?

Perhaps the Minister would be good enough to answer a few questions—not necessarily now but some time in the course of this discussion.

Maybe I can answer them now and it might help. I can only give the Deputy the information I have at my disposal.

My first question arises out of Resolution No. 1. What amount of the Road Fund is, in fact, expended upon road-making or road maintenance and what amount is kept by the Exchequer? The questions which I desire to ask in respect of Resolution No. 2 arise out of the Minister's statement to the effect that a new method of calculating horse-power on the basis of the cubic capacity of the engine will be introduced.

I understand that in 1923, when horse-power was arranged on the basis of cubic capacity, 160 cubic centimetres were fixed as equivalent to one horse-power. Under the present proposals 125 cubic centimetres are selected as being equivalent to one horse-power. I want to know the reason for the change. The purpose of my question is to ascertain whether the Minister is aware that that change has the effect of putting quite a large number of the smaller and more popular cars above the dividing line by a very small number of cubic centimetres. For instance, a Ford Consul and a Vauxhall are only seven cubic centimetres above the dividing line. A Hillman which is newly assembled here in Dublin, is only six cubic centimetres above the dividing line. A Hillman Minx is 15 cubic centimetres above the dividing line. If, instead of 125 cubic centimetres, a figure of 127 cubic centimetres were accepted as equivalent to one horse-power, I am advised that many of these anomalies would be avoided. Perhaps the Minister will look into the matter?

With regard to the forecast of a change in the method of calculation, I may tell the Deputy that this has come as a result of consultation between my Department and all the interests affected. I met representatives of all the motor trading organisations twice—first, before the issue of this White Paper and, secondly, before the circulation of these Resolutions. They gave me the impression that they were satisfied and that they regarded the change as very equitable and desirable—that is, so far as the method of the calculation of horse-power is concerned.

Deputy Costello asked for information as regards the application of the Road Fund to the making of roads. I can only remind the Deputy that while he was Taoiseach the last raid was carried out on this fund. A sum of £280,000 per annum will be paid for the next ten years from the Road Fund as a result of money which was borrowed on the strength of that fund.

That is hardly an answer to my questions. I desire to assure the Minister that the questions I asked him were not in any way prompted by any vested interests such as motor traders. The questions were put by me on behalf of the owners and drivers of these popular cars.

I meet these drivers and owners, just as Deputy Costello does.

Is the Minister not going to give me the information which I have requested?

I have given all the information I can give at this stage.

I said that I did not expect the Minister to give the information impromptu. Is it the Minister's attitude that he will not give the information at all?

My attitude is not that I will not give the information. I told the Deputy that I would give the information which I had at my disposal.

Could the Minister give the House that information during the course of this discussion? I understand that the Minister cannot give the information impromptu.

On a point of order. The Minister has now made a statement covering two separate Financial Resolutions. He has intimated that it is imperative that he shall get Resolution No. 1 to-night. Do I understand that it has been implied that the subject matter of the two Resolutions will be incorporated in one discussion? Do I understand that some time during the evening the Minister will intervene to put a closure on the discussion? Is there any possibility that that will relate to Financial Resolution No. 2 as well as to Financial Resolution No. 1?

I have told you it will not.

Are we to understand that, some time during this discussion, which inevitably will be a long one and would normally go over until to-morrow, the Minister would intervene to move the closure on Financial Resolution No. 1?

I do not think it should be necessary.

The discussion will certainly last the day.

The discussion could follow on the Report Stage. I do not want to prevent Deputies from discussing Financial Resolution No. 1. All that I am asking is that they would give me Resolution No. 1 to-day and take whatever time they wish on Financial Resolution No. 2. They can take whatever time they want on Resolution No. 1 on Report Stage, and the House, if it so decides, can insert any amendment it wants. I think that is really fair.

If the Minister had dealt with the thing separately, as he was asked to do, this position would not have arisen. The Minister gave the House some figures.

The Minister requires Financial Resolution No. 1 this evening, and the Chair would suggest that the debate should take place on the Report Stage of Resolution No. 1.

The Minister has thrown both Resolutions into the gambit.

I have not.

The Minister's statement dealt with both Resolutions. Before we get into any discussion I want to ask the Minister a question. The Minister gave a lot of figures, segregating those relating to different types of motor vehicles. He gave figures relating to the estimated additional yield from each type of vehicle.

Am I to take it that the figures which the Minister gave were an estimate of what would accrue for a full normal year?

Then I am afraid that there is something radically wrong with the tot of the figures which I took down and the tot which the Minister gave. Can the Minister tell me what the figure for goods vehicles is?

£380,000.

I took the figures to be: private cars, £120,000; goods vehicles, £380,000; tractors, £31,000; large public service vehicles, £34,000; small public service vehicles, £56,000; trade licences, £7,500; Government services, £70,000 and less the £3,000 in respect of certain types of motor cycles, and less £4,000 in respect of hearses. These figures do not give the £830,000 which the Minister gave as his total.

There is £135,000 for drivers' licences.

I am still on my point of order. I want to say that the Minister made a general speech in relation to the two Financial Resolutions but that he has not moved these Resolutions yet.

I have moved both.

At any rate, we are in Committee on Finance and so there is no restriction as to the way in which a Deputy may come into the debate. He may speak once, twice or three times, as the case may be. In view of the circumstances in which we find ourselves and of the statement that has been made, I think it is imperative that the two Resolutions be discussed separately. We first deal with Resolution No. 1. It will be impossible to do that without covering a good deal of ground, particularly in view of the Minister's statement. When we have dealt with it, we then deal with Resolution No. 2. There may be a certain amount of duplication in the discussion that will take place. As we are in Committee on Finance, that duplication will inevitably arise. If the Minister is pressing to have Resolution No. 1 decided to-day, it would be more satisfactory for him to have that Resolution segregated from Resolution No. 2. The House must not get itself into a position on such important motions that it can be told to wait and talk about Resolution No. 1 on the Report Stage. We might then be told to wait and talk about it on the Finance Bill when it is introduced.

I have no objection to the House deciding to deal with the two Resolutions in whatever way it wishes, provided I get an assurance from the House that I will get Resolution No. 1 to-night. I say that because it is my duty and the duty of my Department to notify all the registration authorities throughout the country at once. I will be satisfied if I get Resolution No. 1 to-night. This position arose before in 1926 when, on the Report Stage, an amendment was passed by this House which reduced the amount of the levy. I do not think I am asking too much from the House when I ask to be given the Committee Stage of this Resolution to-night so that I can notify all the registration authorities.

The Minister wants this Resolution to-night—to be in a position to impose the closure. As far as we are concerned, we will enter into no undertaking to facilitate the Minister in the passing of this Resolution.

That is an extraordinary attitude for a responsible Deputy to take up.

It is an extraordinary attitude for the Minister to take up, to try and cod the people.

I submitted two amendments to the Ceann Comhairle, one seeking to delete "1952" from Resolution No. 1 and substitute "1955", and the other seeking, in Resolution No. 2, to delete the year "1953" and substitute the year "1955". I did that in compliance with the Ceann Comhairle's advice that it was necessary in order that the amendments would come within the rules of order. I would much prefer to have moved a different type of amendment, one in which the House would ask the Government to reconsider its approach to this whole problem of additional motor taxation.

On a point of order, what are we discussing now?

Financial Resolution No. 1 and the amendment that has been moved.

As far as I am concerned, I have got no amendment before me.

The amendment that is being discussed is an amendment only to Resolution No. 1.

I presume so. The Ceann Comhairle indicated that if the Minister was going to make references to both Resolutions in his speech, then subsequent speakers could do likewise. I take it, therefore, that I am entitled to follow the Minister over the pattern of ground which he has traversed.

I think it is inevitable that the discussion on Resolution No. 1 will be wide. I, therefore, must take exception to any amendment being before the House at the moment except an amendment to Resolution No. 1, and to insist that Resolution No. 1 will be disposed of separately.

I do not want to have any more undesirable precedents established here. We are now being asked to discuss an amendment which has not been circulated in the House.

I also have handed in an amendment. I think it would convenience all Deputies if we could have copies of the amendments circulated.

They will be circulated as soon as possible, but so far it has been impossible to do so in the time available.

Can we be told from the Chair what exactly is under discussion?

We are discussing an amendment moved by Deputy Norton to Financial Resolution No. 1.

What is the text of the amendment?

To substitute the year "1955" for the year "1952".

It is amazing how reasonable the Deputy has become.

As I was saying, I would much prefer an amendment which would ask the Minister to reconsider his whole approach to this problem of additional taxation because I am afraid that the proposals disclosed by the Minister to-day, and previously heralded in this White Paper on the question of additional motor taxation, indicate that they have not got the mature and sagacious consideration which a matter of this kind needs. Instead of that, we have probably the best example of what I describe as the "fire brigade" Government here this evening. The Minister comes in and tells us it is essential that he should have this Resolution on the first day the Dáil meets after a recess covering three months. He says the House must give it to him this evening on the basis, presumably, that somebody might manage to get away with a considerable amount of loot at the public expense if this Resolution is not passed this evening.

The only way in which one can defeat Resolution No. 1 is by giving oneself the privilege of paying 10/- twice this year for a motor driving licence in order to avoid paying £1 next year. I leave it to some other brain to work that out and show in relation to the calendar how much will be saved by recourse to this financial manipulation. There is no need to panic about Resolution No. 1. It is obvious that the ordinary person will face up to this imposition with the same grim determination as he has faced up to former impositions this year. It is quite obvious that he will bear the new burden imposed upon him so far as these Financial Resolutions are concerned.

In connection with Resolution No. 1 the Minister says quite frankly and definitely that he proposes to take another £135,000 out of the pockets of the motor drivers and he will do that by the very simple device of increasing the licence from 10/- to £1 per year. The Minister is not concerned with the equity of the new charge he proposes to impose. He is concerned merely with getting an additional £135,000 for the Exchequer. He is not increasing the charge merely because the issue of driving licences causes no damage to roads and drivers of motor cars cause no damage to roads other than that which is a necessary part of road haulage. The Minister in this case is after £135,000 and that is the only reason for increasing the driving licences and that is the only reason governing the increase in driving licences.

Many of the folk who will pay this additional fee will be ordinary drivers who have to pay their driving licence annually because it is only in very few instances that employers pay driving licences for their staff. The ordinary man who earns his living by driving a motor car or a lorry will now have the privilege of giving the Minister an additional 10/-, making £1 in all, for a licence which hitherto cost him only 10/-. But the Minister does not care.

He wants £135,000 and he proposes to get it out of the pockets of drivers of motor vehicles including the pockets of the fellows who have driving licences for the purpose of earning a livelihood. Their driving licence is the foundation of their trade. It is their right to drive on the road and the Minister selects that class as a fit subject for the additional taxation proposed to be imposed by Resolution No. 1.

I am opposed to any increase in driving licences. If the Government needs another £135,000 urgently it can get the money quite easily. To-day the Minister for Finance told us about a soft cheque for £75,000 passed over to the Irish banks in the last few days because of their having underwritten the 5 per cent. £20,000,000 loan. Every simpleton in the country knew that that loan would be oversubscribed. It did not need underwriting, but the banks were asked to underwrite it and, adopting the simple device of insuring the Government against the risk of the loan not being filled, the banks now walk off with a £75,000 cheque which will be paid out of the money the ordinary worker will have to find in order to meet the additional charge for motor licences under the Resolution introduced by the Minister for Local Government to-day. The motor drivers will finance the bankers for underwriting the 5 per cent. £20,000,000 loan.

So far as the ordinary motoring public is concerned these two Resolutions represent a miniature supplementary Budget because the motoring community is being selected for increased taxation. If we are in future faced with the prospect of taxation of this kind the community will never know from day to day what taxation it will have to face. We are now slipping away from the old established practice of an annual Budget and slipping into a device of an annual Budget plus, as we had in 1947, an emergency Budget, plus, as we are having now in 1952, another emergency and Supplementary Budget in relation to the motoring community.

Let us examine the range of taxation which the Minister proposes to impose in these two Resolutions. The first people selected for additional taxation are the unfortunate taximen who operate in the Cities of Dublin and Cork and the hackney drivers who operate throughout the country. In so far as these folk depend upon the driving of hired cars for their livelihood it may be said that their occupation earns them a rather doubtful remuneration. In order to keep their heads above water, to pay the insurance on their cars, to pay for their licences to drive their cars and to keep them in repair they have to work long hours day and night. Notwithstanding that the Minister now proposes to impose additional taxation on these unfortunate men to the extent of another £56,000 in addition to what they are paying at the moment. This imposition will fall in the same year in which we have had the toughest Budget the country has ever known over the last 30 years. I think it is grossly unfair that these men who are struggling to keep their heads above water and earn a miserable competence to sustain themselves and their families should be selected for this new taxation at a time when everyone will tell you that business was never so bad as it is at the moment. This taxation will constitute a very severe blow to taxi owners and hackney drivers and I see no reason why such a heavy burden should be visited upon such a relatively small class. I see no reason why it should be in the dimension of £56,000 per year.

There are ways in which the Minister could get additional taxation. He could close the gaps that exist at the present time and wipe out the abuse of people securing licences for public service vehicles which are not operated as public service vehicles. It is well known that many people get a public service licence to run their own private cars. They register their cars as public service vehicles. They hire the vehicles to themselves and their families. If they go into the market they pick the best of the traffic. Unless the jobs pay well they withdraw their cars from public hire and use them as family cars at the reduced licence fee.

Consideration of the invasion of other people's livelihood by folk of that kind by the Minister would, I think, enable the Minister and the local authorities to get from cars so licensed a much greater taxation return than they get at the moment. In any case, if we acknowledge that hackney hiring is an occupation and that taximen are following a definite occupation, it is clearly desirable that some steps be taken in the interests of a class that renders a very useful public service, to stop that trade being invaded by everybody who wants to abuse the law and get cheap licences and at the same time deprive others of an opportunity of earning a fair livelihood. I am strongly opposed to this new taxation being visited upon these small men. They have no resources to enable them to meet it and it is an unfair burden on them—particularly unfair after the burdens they have already borne arising out of the normal Budget.

Let us come to private cars. There may be a case, so far as the smaller car is concerned, that this new taxation is nothing that we need worry about unduly. There may be a case in present circumstances for an increase in certain respects. I pass from the private car, because it is not the main consideration in my mind, to the question of goods vehicles.

The taxation on the lighter types of goods vehicles is, roughly, the same as it was, and shows but little increase up to the three-ton or four-ton class. After that there is a very steep increase. While one may make the case for a certain increase in respect of motor vehicles having regard to the increased cost of road maintenance and other considerations, I think one must do so with some understanding of the position of those who use those vehicles at present. So far as the lighter vehicles are concerned, there is not very much of an increase. There is an increase which will be felt by those people, but one might say it is a bearable increase.

When you come to vehicles of the four-five ton class, you get a steep rise in taxation. For example, a vehicle of five tons rises in taxation from £90 to £145, with £15 for every quarter ton over the tonnage which is covered by the £145. The taxation there is far too steep. If you look at the taxation on the unladen weights of vehicles above the five-ton class, you can see there clearly evidence that the increase is 100, 150, 200 and 300 per cent. on classes of vehicles which cannot be said to be unduly heavy for our roads. What is the effect of that increase going to be? It seems to me that one of the real dangers is that people who use vehicles of that kind will use less of the vehicles and that, instead of keeping them on the roads for the 12 months, providing employment for drivers and helpers during 12 months, the tendency will be to use the vehicles only when they can be fully employed. That may well mean a curtailment of employment all round in the motor haulage business and it may show itself in intermittent employment where firms find it advantageous to suspend the licensing of lorries because of the new taxation charges which they must meet. I, therefore, desired in my amendment that that whole matter should be reconsidered with a view to ensuring that the increase which is so steep here would not be made so steep in whatever proposals were being brought before this House.

We come, then, to the other class of vehicles, the very heavy vehicle of 12, 15 and 20 tons. Under this Financial Resolution, they are going to bear a very heavy burden. Quite frankly, we are not terribly worried about the burden that is imposed there. We have to ask ourselves at this stage whether it is in the national interest that we should continue to import from all over the world heavy motor vehicles 20 tons and upwards and use them on Irish roads not made for them—and this at a time when our railways are screeching for traffic and when the taxpayer is being asked to pay £2,500,000 to keep the railways going.

To keep the roads going.

In my view and in the view of this Party, it would be a sounder national policy to put these large vehicles off the roads entirely, to save money that we at present export for the purchase of these vehicles and divert to the traffic-starved railways the quantity of goods which is hauled in these heavy imported lorries over Irish roads which are not capable of taking that traffic. It would be much more honest to say that this heavy type of lorry would not be permitted to operate at all, and that we have an iron road in the railways capable of taking that heavy traffic. The reasons for such a step are, first, to put the railways in an economic position; secondly, to save the employment which is in the railways and, thirdly, because the cost of maintaining our roads so as to allow these heavy vehicles to operate freely is a burden which neither the local ratepayer nor the national Exchequer is capable of sustaining on a satisfactory basis for any length of time. There again I want a reconsideration of this matter in order that we might get a new slant in our national policy in respect of these heavy vehicles.

I am convinced that we ought not encourage their use on the roads. We are doing that here, we have allowed it to happen in the past, it is happening to-day, and it is going to continue in the future, even though there will be higher taxation. The owners will also expect the roads to be made up so as to take the impact of these heavy imported lorries laden to their fullest capacity. At the same time, the trains will be going empty. We should not let these imported lorries transport the goods which the railways so essentially require.

These are my views on the Resolutions. The Resolutions show no adequate measurement of our precise transport difficulties. One does not know whether it is intended to be a transport policy, whether it is a road policy or whether it is a Supplementary Budget. It has no distinguishing features about it, and might well be described as all three. In my view, the matter has received inadequate consideration. While certain small people are not being heavily taxed under these Resolutions, others are being unfairly taxed where there is no case for it. In addition, there is the further fatal weakness that we are permitting to operate on our roads vehicles for which the roads were never intended when originally made. Because of these considerations, I would prefer to move that the matter be referred back for reconsideration; but if I cannot move an amendment on those terms, I have to move the only amendment open to me, that this new taxation be not operative for two or three years—in the hope that, if that is carried, the Government will get an opportunity in the meantime to consider the matter from a more sensible standpoint than is disclosed in these Resolutions.

I oppose this Resolution and I support Deputy Norton's amendment in the spirit in which it is moved. It is moved for the purpose of defeating and frustrating the intention of the Minister to increase the price of driving licences. The Minister, in his explanation in regard to the set-up of the Finance Resolution, made it quite clear that he and the Department of Local Government are just having to act as the catspaw of the Minister for Finance to impose increased budgetary charges on the people.

The £11,000,000 additional taxation that was imposed in the Budget, plus the additional cost from £6,000,000 to £8,000,000 that was imposed upon the people's expenditure by the withdrawal of the food subsidies in the Budget, were enough in themselves to go on with at the time but now the Minister is picking up odd ha'porths of tar around the place. Certainly the proposal to increase from 10/- to £1 the cost of motor licences in indeed a ha'porth of tar. I do not know what kind of a hole it is going to stop in a road. At any rate, we oppose it on the basis that it is a continuance of the whole budgetary policy of the Fianna Fáil Government.

I do not want to go over the general line of the Government budgetary policy except to mention one or two figures which will indicate in the meantime, in the taxation that was imposed in the intervening years since 1947, the amount of taxation and the amount of additional cost that was imposed on the motor industry and the users of motors. The swing back is entirely to the heavy budgetary policy of the Government as exemplified by its approach to the Budget of 1947.

In 1947, the additional taxation was imposed that, in the net way, would bring, during the year ending March, 1948, £2,500,000. That was not sufficient and the Government of that time came to the Dáil in the autumn of that year and put up proposals for an additional £4,770,000 for the remaining part of the year. Then the Government went out and the budgetary policy was pursued that lightened that imposition of taxation on the people for three years. In that period, however, substantially heavy burdens were placed on the motoring fraternity.

In the table explanatory of the Budget for 1948, there was a certain adjustment with regard to taxation in regard to beer and wines and there was an additional £300,000 by way of motor vehicle duties and £910,000 on motor spirit. In the table explanatory of the Budget for the following year, £300,000 was taken out of the Road Fund but a net relief of £733,000 was given, however, to the taxpayer. Again, in the table explanatory of the Budget for 1950, £300,000 was taken from the Road Fund and there was a net imposition of additional taxation to the extent of £355,000 imposed for the year. In the table explanatory of the Budget for 1951, again £300,000 was taken from the Road Fund; £600,000 additional taxation was put on petrol and oils. There was a net reduction in taxation to the extent of £264,000. So that, during the three years ending 1949, 1950 and 1951, the main incidence of any additional taxation that was imposed bore on those who were running motors. Nine hundred thousand pounds were taken from the Road Fund for budgetary purposes but the general incidence of taxation on the people was made easier and lighter.

Now, in an astounding way, we swing round in the Budget for the current year to the imposition of £20,000,000 additional taxation on the people. Having done that, the Minister for Local Government is used by the Minister for Finance to come in and to impose nominally taxation to the extent of £830,000 and, in fact, to impose, by the taxes he is proposing, a very substantial increase over that amount because the general proposals he is making are going to dislocate industry, increase unemployment and prevent any systematic approach to road transport policy or even to policy with regard to the maintenance of the roads.

It has been estimated that the annual cost to an ordinary individual of running a motor car at the present time, when you take into consideration that you wipe out depreciation by a fourth, is something over £200. Since the Minister showed his hand with regard to the general line of taxation in the White Paper, the garage proprietors and garaging industry in this country have been faced with a phenomenon that they did not have to face since 1945. Since 1945, most people who had got into the habit of putting their cars up for the winter months, and had got garage proprietors to block up their cars for the winter months, took out their cars. They have been on the road for the 12 months. Since the Minister's White Paper was published, the phenomenon has again shown itself, and garage proprietors are being asked to block up a substantial number of private cars. Now the winter is coming on and I would like to know if the Minister has given any consideration to what it means in regard to the drop in petrol consumption and the drop in revenue in regard to the non-payment of the motor tax over the winter quarter.

The motor assembly industry has been established for quite a long number of years, and is giving a certain amount of general cost to the Minister, but it is in the interests of the nation's economy. The motor assembly industry has become a very substantial industry. Has the Minister taken into consideration what the position is in the motor assembly industry at the present time? Has he had a look at what has taken place with regard to the new private cars, new lorries and commercial vehicles that are coming on the road at the present time?

Since the Minister for Finance foreshadowed in his Budget at the beginning of the year that increased motor taxation would be imposed, we have seen that, whereas in the months of May, June, July and August, 1951, 1,502 new goods vehicles were registered, in the same four months in respect of the year 1952, following the threat of the Minister for Finance to impose additional motor taxation, that 1,502 has become 1,021. In June this year there were 343 less additional private cars registered. In July, the number had gone down 217 as compared with last year, and in August it had gone down 263 as compared with last year.

All that implies a substantial reduction of employment in the motor assembly industry and when you consider the number of cars that are being taken off the road, as a result of their lives being ended, it implies a contemplated fall in the use of petrol.

In dealing with the industrial side there is an additional point. One of the most satisfactory developments in connection with the motor industry in recent years has been the collaboration between the workers and the garage proprietors to establish a proper system of apprenticeship training so that there will be a systematic approach, through our vocational schools and in a supervised way by the trade committee, to the training of young men for garage work and putting them into employment. There is a systematic examination for these people and in the 1952 entrance examination there were 753 candidates for qualification for garage apprenticeship and 269 of these passed. The examination took place in May or June and, up to the other day, out of the 269 who passed it has only been possible to place 67 in employment. Of the young fellows who went into that work in the city and were nearing the finishing stage of their apprenticeship, 30 have been unemployed.

There you have the reaction of this badly thought out scheme. It is not related to any new approach to road development or improvement. In my opinion, it is not related to any new frame of mind with regard to reducing the rates in the country or assisting local authorities. It is just a question of seeing into whose pocket the Minister for Finance can put his hand in order to get a few more shillings out of it. There is no consideration of how wide the effect of the action may be. The effect has gone down to the very threshold of our vocational schools, to the young people coming out of these schools and hoping to get into employment, and to the young fellows just reaching their final year of apprenticeship and hoping to get on full time pay in the garages both in the city and in the country, throwing them out on the roadside at a time when they might hope to get established in full economic life.

It has gone further than that. There is hardly a motor assembly business here that has not had to discharge from 50 to 100 men from employment. The same thing applies pretty generally in a lesser degree to garages, throughout the city at any rate, and I am sure it is occurring in the country. That is one way in which the Minister for Finance's proposal is operating through the Minister for Local Government.

Then when you come to the increased tax on goods vehicles a situation is being created which will raise the cost of distribution in the country. If you raise the cost of transport to individual firms using their own transport for delivering their goods throughout the country, they will increase their charges and square their accounts. By the time the increased charges for distribution have been passed on through the wholesale and retail channels, as a result of the £380,000 which the Minister for Finance expects to get from the increased tax on goods vehicles, an increased amount will be coming out of the pockets of the people who have to pay for the goods delivered by these vehicles.

The position with regard to the hackney drivers in the city raises very complicated questions as to the licences that are to be issued to people to engage in that trade. The balance sheets of the hackney drivers operating in the city and the country have been carefully assembled by their various associations and I should like to hear from the Minister whether he has considered the representations put before him.

The question has been raised many times as to why some portion of the increased tax on petrol should not be available for the maintenance of the roads. It is a reasonable question. It opens up the whole question of the approach to the maintenance and improvement of our road system. Instead of having a systematic approach to that, we have these proposals put before us by the Minister for Finance, unchecked in any way as far as I can see by the Minister for Local Government as to the effect they will have on the local authorities' rates and on the roads. There will be many cynical expressions on the faces of the local representatives throughout the country when they hear that this money is to be provided to relieve the rates and to reduce the amount of money that will have to be provided from the rates. The Minister asks that an additional 10/- should be paid by people who take out a driver's licence. We are against that.

I want to make a few observations in regard to these Resolutions. In regard to the first one, which proposes to increase the cost of the driving licence from 10/- to £1 a year, I do not think there will be the public outcry against that which has been mentioned this evening. I feel that in all matters with which this House has to deal, particularly in regard to matters of finance, there ought to be a realistic approach. The Minister has told us that there has been no alteration in the cost of the driving licence since 1926. The cost of the driving licence has been 10/- a year. Since 1926 there has been a very substantial change in the country. Generally speaking, wages and incomes have substantially increased. The value of money has deteriorated, and 10/- in 1926 or 1930 would be equivalent to not much more than, if as much as, 5/- now.

Actually in increasing the duty from 10/- to £1 there is very little alteration in the particular charge on the individual who has to get the licence. I think that nobody in this House or nobody in the country will follow Deputy Norton in his suggestion that this huge impost is going to affect employment, that it is going to make it impossible for a driver to pay his driving licence. Deputy Norton described it as a huge impost and that is what I term an unrealistic approach to the problem.

In the White Paper which has been issued the full facts have been given in relation to roads, and everybody knows that wages for road workers and people engaged in repairing and making new roads have enormously increased, that the cost of materials used in the repair and in the making and maintenance of roads has also substantially increased. It is obvious that somebody must pay for the maintenance of our roads and it was clear to motorists that they would be required—and I think they accepted it that they would be required—to pay increased tax for the purpose of ensuring that the roads were maintained. After all, these wonderful roads that we have all over the country now have been constructed and built and are maintained for the purpose of facilitating motor haulage and motor transport. It is obvious that if that is so the people who use the roads must pay for the roads. If we approach this problem in that realistic way we will find that there are not so many objections to these Resolutions as the speeches by Deputy Norton and Deputy General Mulcahy would indicate. No Deputy here will say there is very much difference between the £ to-day and 10/- 12 years ago. There is very little difference and I believe that, generally speaking, drivers of motor vehicles will realise that they must contribute something to the enormous charges the State and the local authorities have to undergo in regard to road repair and road maintenance.

Like most Deputies I have received a circular letter this morning from the Association of Chambers of Commerce of Ireland dealing with this question of motor taxation. These gentlemen— whoever they are I do not know— come along and say that direct labour should be wiped out, that all road work should be done by contract, that there should be no direct labour on the roads because——

The Deputy seems to be travelling wide from the Resolution.

It is on this particular Resolution that this Association of Chambers of Commerce have circularised every Deputy this morning.

We cannot have a discussion on the system of road work on this Resolution.

They say: "The proposed drastic increase in taxation especially on heavy vehicles is unnecessary, and if enforced will affect the cost of distributing essential goods and foodstuffs and thereby increase further the cost of living." I am only referring to the other resolutions that they sent in connection with that to show that they were not concerned entirely with motor taxation. They want to interfere with the machinery by which the roads are maintained. They go further—I am quite sure Deputy Norton would not agree with that—by saying that "licensed hauliers have the right and the obligation to operate on comparable conditions with the national transport undertaking."

Obviously Deputy Norton and Deputy General Mulcahy have two different views in regard to road transport and in regard to rail transport, because Deputy Mulcahy wants more people employed in motor production and in connection with motor transport generally. Deputy Norton says that he wants to put large vehicles off the road altogether.

Mr. Byrne

He said foreign vehicles. He was referring to the heavy lorries manufactured in foreign countries.

What Deputy Norton said was that he wanted to put large vehicles off the road and divert to the traffic-starved railways the goods that were carried in these heavy vehicles. He did mention the fact that some of these large vehicles are made abroad, but that was only incidental to his point that the large lorries hauling goods must be driven off the roads.

I have discussed this problem of increased motor taxation with a number of ordinary people who have motor cars. As I have already said, they expected that there would be an increase in the duty and they were very favourably impressed by the smallness of the increase. In fact, there are some popular vehicles under this new arrangement on which taxation will be reduced, but that is in a general way as far as ordinary motors are concerned.

I am quite certain that Deputy Dunne, Deputy Norton, Deputy Corish and other Deputies of the Labour Party believe in a policy of road maintenance, in a policy that will maintain decent employment and continuous employment on the roads. We can only have this continuous and decent employment on the roads if we are to have adequate financial provision for it, and any person who studies and understands the financial necessities of the State in 1952 will realise that additional money was necessary and had to be provided for the roads. Nobody will object to an increase in the cost of driving licences to £1 or to the other increases mentioned here.

There is one point in this regard which requires particular consideration, and again in this matter one treads a somewhat thorny path. I refer to the problem of the taximen, particularly in Dublin City. These taximen, particularly in Dublin City, render great service to the public, being available at all hours of the day and night. These men realise that, in general, the roads must be maintained and that there cannot be stabilisation of duty, but they maintain—and I think they have a very strong case for consideration—that because of the nature of their public service, they should be given the benefit of a flat rate of duty. They have interviewed the Minister or his representatives and have put forward their case in that regard in a reasonable way. I feel that the reasonable case which taximen in Dublin and particularly those who are available at particular points in the city have made in regard to their own taxation should be favourably considered. They have made a very strong case for special consideration and I certainly should like to take this opportunity of supporting that case.

Will the Deputy put down an amendment to delete this provision?

I agree with what the Minister said at the outset in regard to the first Resolution, that it is necessary, if the administrative machinery is to be put into operation, that we as a House should pass that Resolution this evening and I feel that every Deputy, irrespective of the side of the House on which he sits, who is concerned in a responsible way with his duties here, will realise that that must be done.

Deputy Norton seemed to think that it would not matter very much whether it was to take effect now or in three months' time, but obviously under the machinery at present in operation, if a person knows that the cost of a driving licence is to be increased, it is up to him, if it pays him to do so, to go in and get a new driving licence. As apparently there is a precedent not only in regard to this matter but in regard to similar matters, there should be no question about giving the Minister the Resolution to-night. Furthermore, a sense of responsibility would indicate that it is a matter on which there should be no division of the House, but even if there is a division, I feel that there are sufficient responsible Deputies to give the Minister his Resolution.

Deputy S. Collins.

Before Deputy Collins speaks, I want to say that I thought there was an understanding over a long number of years that, in an important debate such as this, Party leaders would be called on one after the other. When was that practice departed from?

It has not been departed from, but Deputy Collins offered before the Deputy offered.

I offered three times. This is my third time.

The Chair did not see the Deputy offering three times.

The Chair cannot be expected to know the difference between the Parties.

That is a tribute to inter-Party solidarity.

You will notice a slight difference after the next election.

I am terribly nervous.

I propose to deal generally with the two Resolutions, and subject to your agreement, Sir, formally to move the amendment standing in my name.

Would the Leas-Cheann Comhairle give us an idea what the amendment is?

The House is discussing the amendment moved by Deputy Norton.

The amendment mentioned by Deputy Collins has not been handed in?

It has not been moved and is not before the House.

It is not to be circulated either?

It will be circulated. Deputy Collins is discussing the amendment moved by Deputy Norton to Financial Resolution No. 1.

It is interesting to listen to the pious platitudes of Deputy Cowan. He comes in here and groans mournfully on behalf of the taximen, but will not answer the direct question as to whether he will put down an amendment to delete the imposition which it is proposed to place upon them and vote against his new found pals.

Deputy Byrne said he was putting that amendment down.

At the same time as he talks about the taximen, he says it is quite reasonable to impose on them an increase of 10/- in the cost of their driving licences. I am completely opposed to this increase, because here again we have a continuation of all the viciousness associated with the extraction of money from the people, of whom Fianna Fáil have now become the masters. They hit, in the first instance, with a Supplementary Budget a limited section of the community— they went for the smoker and the consumer of beer or whiskey. Now they have singled out another section for the relentless heel of the oppressor.

They call it "changes in motor taxation". They can call it whatever they like, but it is only a device whereby to extract, in an nonbudgetary way, money from the people. I have put in an amendment which I will get an opportunity of moving later, suggesting a reduction in the cost of driving licences, for the simple reason that motorists are the one section who have, on the one hand, to bear the grossly unfair increases in taxation and, on the other, pay a 100 per cent. increase in the cost of driving licences.

With pious unctuousness, Deputy Cowan talks about the reason for giving this Resolution to the Minister to-night, and suggests that there should be unanimity in the House, but the reason given by the Minister for the necessity for this Resolution is sheer poppycock, and nobody knows it better than the Minister himself. Driving licences are renewable annually from the day on which they were taken out, and their expiry date is the evening of the previous day in the following year, and it is ridiculous to suggest that there is an urgency as between 3 o'clock this evening and 10.30 to-night about getting that Resolution through. The motor taxation offices all over the country were closed at the time the announcements were made, and even if the Minister were to be delayed an extra 24 hours, the advantage that could be taken of it would be microscopic This is the self-same Government who are now seeking to extract £135,000 extra by way of doubling the charge for driving licences as handed back to their pals, the dance-hall proprietors, a sum of £140,000 because it was too difficult to collect. Where is the sanity in that type of Government activity? In this case, in the main, the persons whom they will ask to carry the heavy cost of tax increases over a wide range of vehicles are those whom they will also tax through the 100 per cent. increased cost of driving licences.

The Minister for Finance in the present Government, using, with a certain amount of adroitness, the Department of Local Government, is seeking virtually £1,000,000 through this device. The pious statement is made by the Minister for Local Government that it will in some way ease the burden of rates for the people because there will necessarily be a greater grant out of the Road Fund for road-making. That is a rather naïve suggestion, particularly when one realises, having regard to the Finance Accounts of 1952, that the motorists, between taxation on vehicles and on petrol, made the substantial contribution of nearly £12,000,000 to the revenue last year.

If the Minister is in earnest about giving subvention-in-aid to the Road Fund for the maintenance of roads, to relieve the burden of rates on local councils, there is a more equitable system of doing it than this method. Would it not be reasonable to apportion some part of the revenue derived from motor vehicles and heavy transport vehicles through taxation of light and heavy hydrocarbon oils and petrol to the Road Fund?

In this particular nasty bit of financial jugglery, Fianna Fáil have singled out a limited section to hit hardest. We can give back £140,000 as a present to the dance-hall proprietors, but we will impose on an already overtaxed and overburdened hackney system an additional £56,000.

I am not going to suggest for one moment that it is impossible to bear certain of the taxes but I shall not be like Deputy Peadar Cowan, trying to juggle on both sides of the fence. It is a heinous, filthy effort by the Government to try to take from that limited section—the hackney owners and taxi- men—£56,000 extra by this device, to say nothing of the extra couple of thousand pounds that they will take from the same section in the increased cost of driving licences. That will be no credit to this House if it is passed into law but it is typical of the intellect, mind and financial approach of the Government that conceived it.

I shall not make any bones about the fact that I oppose this White Paper completely because it is creating the undesirable and unpleasant precedent of using a device such as this. There was a short statement in the Budget statement that we would have tax extraction par excellence, by a Government that was afraid to bring in any type of Supplementary Budget but which uses this device to avoid the necessity for doing that.

The proposal to increase the cost of driving licences by 100 per cent. at this moment is just another indication of the viciousness of the financial policy of the Government. For 12 months it was discrediting the country generally, depressing our credit, critical of borrowing, critical of certain developments. Having worked up that atmosphere, they swallow everything holus polus and go for a loan of unprecedented size at an unprecedented rate of interest and they get it. Now, having had to abandon their denial of the economic soundness of financing certain capital projects from borrowing, they find themselves in the position that they have to seek money for other types of current expenditure and here is the device, conceived in shame and brought to light in a most discreditable manner. The Minister for Local Government, with the responsibility of office on his shoulders, comes in clamouring for Resolution No. 1 to-night on the most spurious and the most shallow possible foundation.

Pious Deputy Cowan says something about 10/- in 1926 being the same as £1 in 1952, that the country will not object to it. Has the same pious Deputy taken the least care to examine the amount that has been extracted from the motoring section of the community in the interim? Year after year every expense in connection with motoring, whether it be the cost of petrol, road tax or repairs, has risen steeply. Apparently it is the Government's view that this is the section of the community that can be most easily oppressed and from whom it is easiest to extract money. On this occasion it is not on the back that is best able to bear the burden that the load is placed. The main viciousness of the thrust is against a limited section of the community and Deputy Norton did not overpaint the picture when he described their conditions.

The existence of the hackney owner or taximan to-day is, at best, precarious. Is that particular section in any way equipped to carry the burden of £56,000 extra? I do not think so. It would serve a very useful purpose if many Deputies of the Party opposite would consider the individual merits of the particular section that will be hit.

I shall not cavil at an increase in taxation that may hit certain types of motor cars. That is not the burden of our complaint against this system. First of all, our complaint is against the method and the technique used to extract money. Secondly, we take a firm stand on behalf of a very oppressed section of the commuity who will be nearly harassed out of existence if the impositions now contemplated are put into effect.

Take the question of roads and road maintenance, which the Minister is trying to use as the gambit to inflict these impositions. Are certain types of traffic or certain sections of the community to carry the burden of that maintenance or is it to be distributed in a more equitable fashion? Deputy Cowan endeavoured to distort and twist certain suggestions made by the Leader of the Labour Party—Deputy Norton—apropos of certain heavy vehicles. I was listening during the course of all this debate and the reference made by Deputy Norton was to vehicles of the 20 ton unladen weight calibre carrying immense loads of heavy goods that might be diverted to the traffic-starved railways. That is something that merits a lot more consideration than the pietistic stupidity of Deputy Cowan.

A very serious problem is created when very heavy vehicles use roads not fit to carry them. It is quite true that the incidence of costs in road maintenance has gone up considerably. What is the true position? Why are we constantly talking about the Road Fund when, in fact, millions of pounds belonging to that fund have been used for purposes other than roads. We are now trying to repair the ravages made on that fund by successive Governments by putting most of the burden on the backs of the motoring community. When I say the motoring community, I mean that the burden is being carried, in the main, by people who are carrying goods, using lorries, hackney cars, or taxis. We are looking for money from this limited section of the community when, in fact, the fund that needs to be reconstituted has been robbed systematically and consistently over a period. What is the real explanation of the difficulty?

Is it not true to say that now is not the time or that this is not the way in which the Government should deal with the problem of road maintenance? It is not the duty of the Government to try to crush out vehicles by imposing taxation by way of road tax. It is their duty to conceive and direct a policy whereby vehicles will not be allowed to operate where, in the considered opinion of the Government, their weight and type makes it impossible for our Irish roads to carry them. What will come about in the final analysis? The weak will be pushed out and the strong will be able to survive and ultimately extort, by way of increased charges, the full burden of these increases from the distribution costs of industry throughout the country.

We have got to face this White Paper on the basis of the amount of taxation that each particular type and class of vehicle can bear. In my view, it would serve a useful and a practical purpose if the Government would reconsider in toto the question of increasing by 100 per cent. the cost of licences and would review in toto the question of the burden imposed on hackney men and on taximen.

As regards lorries, we have a clear anomaly; the Government is talking in one breath about a Bill to remove restrictive practices and yet, with a concealed viciousness, they are introducing, by means of additional taxation, a restriction that will effectively curtail the use of lorries. Is it reasonable or fair to allow that particular type of viciousness to go unchallenged? We do not intend to allow that in this House. It does not matter what pious hopes may be cherished in the expansive bosom of Deputy Cowan. Tooth and nail, every inch of the way, the Opposition will fight every one of these proposals because they are ill-conceived and are placing a burden on a limited section of the community without having any consideration for the realities of the situation.

Apparently, Deputy Cowan could see no merit in the fact that Deputy Mulcahy indicated a repercussion already felt in vocational schools in connection with trainees for garages and for the motor trades generally. Motorists and lorry owners can be taxed to saturation point. This Government has already adopted that practice in connection with cigarettes, beer and tobacco and they are already feeling the pinch; despite vicious taxes on these commodities they are not getting increased revenue.

Is it the Government's desire to crush many of the 23,000 lorry owners out of business? If it is, why do they not come out like men and say so? Why use these unpractical and heinous methods of eliminating them? Many of these men are committed in a very heavy way for hire purchase repayments and many of them are making a very limited income with their trucks. How are they going to bear this additional burden, or is the Government completely unconcerned as to whether or not distribution costs go up? Is it the Government's idea to "grab while you can and grab as much as you can"? That is certainly clearly indicated in this White Paper.

I feel that the Government would be well advised to return this document to the secret recesses from which it was unearthed and to bury it there again. In the final analysis, this is but a loophole out of the task of bringing in a demand for extra money by way of a Supplementary Budget. It is opening up an avenue through which the Irish people can be taxed, but it is a dangerous avenue. It is placing different sections of the community in the position that they do not know when the blow will fall on them. This is something that would have been honestly met if the Minister for Finance faced up to his own responsibility instead of making a catspaw or a puppet out of the Minister for Local Government for his purpose.

I am strongly opposed to the increased burden that will have to be borne by people operating two-ton to five-ton trucks in this country. In the main, many of these lorries are individually owned, operated by one person who is making a living for himself and his helper and their families. These people deserve better consideration from the Government. May I say, for the information of Fianna Fáil Deputies, that they will get a rude awakening later because many of these people were at one time loyal adherents of that Party?

A person who has already had to bear the burden of increased petrol costs, increased repair costs, increased costs of tyres and tubes, is now to be crushed out of existence by this additional tax. This proposal is typical of the Government that conceived it, and I prophesy that it will die in the shame in which it was born.

I am opposed to those Resolutions, and I deprecate particularly the manner in which the Minister introduced Resolution No. 1. He has tried to rush it through the House, under the cloak of Resolution No. 2, with the purpose of which every Deputy was already familiar. The reason he gave for endeavouring to rush it through the House was that motor drivers throughout the country might attempt to evade the tax if the Resolution were not passed to-night. I do not accept that excuse at its face value for this reason. If the Minister wanted to give the House a chance of discussing this proposal in full, he could have introduced a short Bill of two or three sections which would invalidate any licence taken out in the period from to-night until the Resolution had been fully debated and disposed of, that is, any licence except one taken out for the first time. Any other licence could be invalidated. If some persons took out a licence a month ago and proceeded to take out another licence now —it would be inconceivable that anybody but a lunatic would do so—a short Bill of two or three sections would quickly set the matter right and give the House a chance of discussing this proposal in all its aspects. Yet the Minister comes in here with this lame-legged excuse, an excuse which nobody but a child would swallow. Apparently, Deputy Cowan has swallowed it.

This is another cheap device to try to extract from motor drivers and those who take out driving licences a sum of £135,000. It all boils down to the fact that the desire of the present Government is not to ascertain how to run the country best, how to run the country economically or how to levy taxation in the most equitable and impartial way. It appears to me that the Minister for Finance and other Ministers are taxing their brains to see what pockets in the country they are going to pick next. They leave no section untouched. The Budget this year contained quite a number of shocks. They started by driving up the cost of living for ordinary workers by abolishing the food subsidies under the Budget proposals. Not a month or a week has gone by since without some new section of the people being hit.

Now, the motor drivers in the country, who are by no means a wealthy class, will have to contribute another £135,000. It is a significant fact that that is exactly the same figure as the amount remitted to the dance-hall proprietors last April. The Minister may smile, but I might remind him that there are many drivers in the country who do not own the vehicles they drive. They are just ordinary workmen, some driving tractors, some lorries and some cars, to try to earn a living. As the previous speaker pointed out, a driver's licence is the tool of his trade. It is the key to the door of his job, because without it the owner of the vehicle by whom he is employed would not allow him to take it on the high road. It is an offence for the owner of the vehicle as well as for the driver if he takes the vehicle out without a licence. This is the allegedly wealthy class which the Minister for Finance, using the Minister for Local Government as his tool or his big stick, is seeking to crush. The Minister should not forget either that there are many drivers of hackney cars who do not own the cars which they drive. They are merely driving for wages. There are also many young fellows in the country driving tractors for farmers and for tillage contractors, driving lorries and vans for shopkeepers and other people. All these young people are now being called upon to pay £1 per year before getting a driver's licence.

Deputy Cowan says that 10/- does not count, that it does not matter a whole lot. It is very easy for Deputy Cowan to stand up in the Dáil and say that 10/- does not count. The increase in the price of flour and bread did not count. The increase in the price of drink and cigarettes did not count, and the increase which the worker will have to pay under this proposal will not count. Is that the attitude of the Government—that all these things do not count?

Deputy Collins asked just now if the Government wanted to crush out of existence small business people and if they think it is in the national interest to eliminate such sections, why did they not come out in the open and say so? Then everybody would know where they stood. While I know that it would be irrelevant to discuss the provisions of the last Budget now, I think I may be permitted to say that the Budget did hit small businessmen particularly with the result that many of them were eliminated. Now it seems that small businessmen with travelling shops must go off the road or that the drivers of these vans, mostly young country boys, who would otherwise have to emigrate, must help to pay the full price of having Fianna Fail in power. If the Minister and myself had the means at our disposal to find out exactly what the actual number was, I do not think I would be far wrong in saying that only one out of every four people who possess driver's licences himself owns a mechanically propelled vehicle. The other three of the four took out their licences so that they might earn a living by driving these vehicles for other people. This additional tax of 10/- per head will be taken out of the pockets of what I might justly describe as the hardest working and poorest section of the country.

I do not accept the Minister's lame story that it is necessary to rush this through the House to-night on the grounds that there would be too much evasion of the £1 from a driver's licence. Does the Minister think for an instant that a person who took out a driver's licence in the summer would, just for the sake of diddling the State out of 10/-, rush in to-day, to-night or to-morrow morning to get a licence for 10/- because next July he would have to pay £1? I want to bring to the Minister's notice the fact that a simple Bill of two or three sections would prevent any such evasion and meet the Minister's wishes in that regard if he wanted to do that and give this House a chance of a full debate. It is a mean and cheap device to rush this very contentious matter through the House without a debate. It is a very cheap device to cheat Deputies by slipping this in under cover of Resolution No. 2 about which I will say a few words now.

Will the Minister give me or the House a sound reason why the £6 tax on agricultural tractors should be increased to £8? If he gives me a simple answer to that I will accept it. but I know that the Minister has not got a reasonable answer. Does he think that an ordinary young fellow down the country who perhaps went to England and worked in a coal mine in danger of his life in order to buy a tractor, a plough or other agricultural implement with which to earn his living and serve his neighbours, is a man to be taxed? How much damage does that man do on the road? He travels with his threshing machine, tractor or plough for one hour a week on the road, or two at the very most. The Minister seeks to take from that particular section £31,000, I think. These tractors pay £6 which compares with a small car or medium-sized car. Six pounds is exactly twice too much if we are seeking to tax a vehicle because of the amount of damage or user on the road. A tractor is shod with a pair of ordinary motor tyres in front and with what are called land tread tyres on the back. It is not more than 12 or 15 cwt. and its speed does not exceed 12 or 15 miles per hour. It is proposed to take an extra £2 for each of these tractors. If the Minister were to tax farmers who were able to keep tractors for their own use I would have very little to say of it, but I do not know half a dozen farmers in my county who have their own tractor and I am sure that the same applies in every other county. Most of the tractors we see on the roads are owned by young men, members perhaps of large families, who used their intelligence and brains to get a little money together to start life here and work for themselves. Every Deputy in the House must be familiar with that kind of thing. It is a cheap thing, a mean thing and a nasty thing to clap £2 extra, apart from other things, on them. Coupled with that also, is that encouraging from the point of view of this famous demand for more production from the land which we hear so much about? Is the Minister for Local Government showing that his spots have not changed since the time when, as Minister for Agriculture, he threatened to put tractors in over the farmer's walls and knock down his fences? That type of statement has miraculously disappeared since 1948 and has not been taken up by the new Minister for Agriculture. I will not dwell further on that except to say that to tax these drivers, at least those who are serving the farming community, who have helped enormously to increase agricultural production, who have tried to make an honest living in their own country, having perhaps earned in a foreign country oftentimes in danger of their lives the means to make that living, is a mean thing for the Government to do.

Now we come to the small public service vehicle. I do not know what type of district the Minister comes from but I come from a district, a county, the activities of which would come to a standstill if the hackney car as we know it were wiped out. It is the only means of conveyance for people to town or market or on the occasion of any family celebration or of any family trouble. They are being taxed out of existence. Again, most of these vehicles are owned by young men who thought twice before emigrating or perhaps did emigrate to England in order to earn the price of the car with which they are earning their living and serving their locality. Perhaps Córas Iompair Eireann would come in and provide a bus service in that locality. But is that the type of person who should be taxed out of existence? I do not think so. I think, furthermore, that a lot of these people who helped, many of them, honestly and sincerely to put the present Government into power, will be sadly disillusioned at the way they are being blistered by the Government which they put in. However, they will have another chance in the near future to undo what they have done.

There is a question I would like to ask the Minister: is all the Road Fund, is all the taxation which comes from the motor trade—I am including the duty on vehicles, the duty on parts coming into the country, the duty on petrol which is about 2/- a gallon, drivers' licences and a few other things —is all that money used for the purpose of road construction, road development and road repair? I know that it is not, at least I feel that it is not and that, furthermore, it has not been so used in the past. If the Minister has plans to improve the roads of this country and the motor tax is to be used for that purpose, I think he should give these plans to the House. Deputy Costello asked him to do that shortly before he made his opening statement and he did not do so. It is very discourteous of a Minister not to give facts and figures when they are asked for, particularly when they are connected with such a vital issue as has been raised here. I want to condemn this dodge—it is nothing else but a dodge—to introduce a Supplementary Budget. The Fianna Fáil Government, when in office previously, introduced a Supplementary Budget in October, 1947, and I think they learned a very severe lesson. I do hope that the country will have a chance to teach them a similar lesson in the very near future for coming back to their old tricks.

The last class hit by Resolution No. 2 is the lorry owners. Why is the Minister, why are the Government, determined to crush these people out of existence? I say to the Minister— I say it in all sincerity, without rancour or bias—that if it is in the best public interest that these people should be put off the road, why not come into the open and do so without adopting this subterfuge, this dodge, to crush them in a quiet way? If it is in the best interests of the nation to eliminate these people or that particular type of business from the country, why not come out in the open? The running of the country is not a thing which should be concealed. It is like poking at these people out through a fence while the man who is doing the poking is well hidden. There is no need for that. The country would be better pleased with a Government which did not adopt that attitude. The people know quite well that any Government must, from time to time, face unpleasant facts and unpleasant situations.

I close on the note that I do not agree with the present Government's policy of crushing out the small businessman, the small shopkeeper, the small publican, the small lorry owner, every small man, leaving nobody in the country but one mass of ordinary people who all adopt the same means of livelihood and a few monopolies or cartels to do what they like with that mass. I do hold that the small shopkeeper, let him have a travelling shop or not, the small publican, the young man who is earning his living with a lorry or with a tractor and tillage set and who is doing tillage contracting work for his neighbours who, perhaps, are not wealthy enough to buy this machinery, are filling a very useful place in the life of the community and they should not be eliminated, as appears to be the policy of the present Government.

I want to make quite clear that we in Clann na Talmhan are opposing these two Resolutions. I hold that the tax to be levied is not needed. Will the Minister tell me that all the Road Fund has been spent on road development, repair and improvement in the past few years? Will the Minister give the House an assurance that, if this new measure goes through, the tax to be levied will be devoted exclusively to road repair and development? Will he give the House an assurance that if lorry owners, hackney owners and other such people lose their livelihood, as a result of this new taxation, Córas Iompair Eireann will come to the rescue of the people in the rural areas who have been deprived of the service of these vehicles? The Minister should answer these questions without ambiguity because they are extremely important matters.

I feel that this is just a Supplementary Budget. We are told that these taxes are necessary for the purpose of the maintenance of the roads. If we are going to get to a stage in this country where every section of the community is to be mulcted for the purpose of enabling the Government to take over in toto the expenditure of all the money in the country, I feel that we are gradually heading for a socialist totalitarian state.

Resolution No. 1, which proposes to increase the cost of a driver's licence, represents a 100 per cent. tax. It is to come into effect as from to-night lest the Government should miss even one 10/- on driving licences in this country.

I agree that the cost of the maintenance of roads is going up. Let us, however, examine for a few moments why the cost of everything in this country —whether it be the maintenance of roads or anything else—is going up Prices are going up for the simple reason that, day by day, and hour by hour, increased charges are placed on every section of the community. The Minister's suggestion—he is only deputising for the Minister for Finance— is that these taxes are necessary because the cost of the roads has increased. If you increase the cost of driving licences then, straightway, you increase the charges. Let us review the situation as it affects the country as a whole. This Financial Resolution is further evidence of the vicious circle we have had to contend with ever since the Fianna Fáil Government got into power. To start with, it is going to cause dislocation in practically every factory and every industry and it is going to cause a rise in the price of practically every commodity. Some of the bigger factories or bigger firms employ as many as 15 or 20 lorries. They have now to face a 100 per cent. increase in the cost of driving licences and there are also very heavy overhead charges on the lorries. The owners and directors of these firms are not philanthropists and they are not going to accept these increases without passing on some of them. These increases will react on the cost of delivery of the raw materials and of distributing the goods which are manufactured from the raw materials. Somebody has to pay these extra costs and it means that the price of the article will go up straightway because the cost of producing it goes up. The next thing is that in all probability there will be a very reasonable demand for increased wages. They will go up, too. In that way, the vicious circle continues.

I know of a merchant in my constituency who has 20 lorries. He deals quite a lot in grain, and uses the heavier type of lorry for his business. These lorries are essential for farmers in a county such as Wexfore, where there is a lot of tillage. We want to dispose of our coarse grain and our wheat as soon as possible after we sell it. What will be the position in the future? Assuming that the merchants will be able to maintain their present number of lorries on the road, and to continue the useful employment which they give, they will charge more for the transport of the grain, and that increased charge will come out of the pockets of the farmers, who will, in addition, be hit as a result of the proposal in connection with tractors.

We hear a lot of talk about the Government and about their intentions to develop the industrial arm of the country and to increase agricultural production. It was more or less suggested that any extra taxation which they would impose would be on luxury goods. Are tractors luxury goods? Is there any justification in the wide world for the increase in the tax on tractors? There is no justification for the increased tax on tractors, except that this is a Supplementary Budget and that the Government want to get more money. One would think that they would have learned a lesson as a result of the previous Supplementary Budget which they introduced, and which was the direct cause of putting them out of office. One would think that they would have learned a lesson as a result of what has happened since the imposition of penal taxes by the Minister for Finance in his recent Budget— penal taxes which he imposed on so-called luxuries, namely, beer, wine, whiskey and cigarettes. Since the imposition of these extra taxes there has been a falling-off in the consumption of these commodities. I maintain that, apart from disrupting the commercial life of this country, the Government will not get the same return of revenue which they got heretofore.

Let us again examine the position from the point of view of the farming community: one can talk about farmers nowadays without having people look askance at you, because the people of the country as a whole realise that, in the final analysis, they have to depend on us. What about manures? We had to pay enough for them this year. We were told that one of the reasons why we had to pay so much for manures was the cost of transport. Some of us were hoping that next year manures would be a bit cheaper: I understand the price is coming down. Any hope which we had in that direction will now be nullified. On the whole, heavy lorries are used for the transport of manures. I am 100 per cent. behind the railways and behind increasing the carriage of goods on the railways. The railways, however, do not run near the farmers' doors, and for that reason lorries are favoured for the transport of certain commodities. These commodities have to be transported by lorry and somebody has to pay for it. The Government will have the money and they may wish to utilise it for various purposes. They may utilise it for the purpose of bolstering up Córas Iompair Eireann. The fact, at any rate, is that this additional taxation is going to hit every section of the community.

These Resolutions represent a further drive in the policy outlined in the White Paper. That policy was to the effect that when this Government took over the people had too much money, that the people should not be allowed to spend the money and that it was the Government's job to spend it. That is really what is behind these proposals and that is what is behind the policy of the Fianna Fáil Party. It seems that we are going to have a division on this proposal to increase taxation. There is no use in issuing a warning to the Fianna Fáil Deputies because they belong to a Party and have to vote with that Party.

I want, however, to warn the three or four Independent Deputies who will vote with the Government that this is just the first of a long series of marches into the Division Lobby, and that this Government intend to mulct the people and to take every shilling that they can from them. In other words, they intend to run this country according to their own methods, and they intend, in spite of all their promises to the contrary, to eradicate all private enterprise. That is where they are riding for a fall. Our only hope is that we will get a chance, and get it soon, to put them out of office, and that the Fianna Fáil Party and Government will come down before they have wrecked, crippled and destroyed the trade, industry, agriculture and commerce of the country.

Mr. Byrne

I do not intend to detain the House very long on this Resolution because most of the things that I had intended to say have already been said. One of my colleagues has asked the House to give the Minister this Resolution to-night. I want to know, what is the hurry? I earnestly hope that the House will not give the Minister the power to-night or on any other night to increase taxation on the taximen and on the hackney owners. They are already overburdened with taxation. Their petrol has been taxed, and also their tyres, the oil they use and the cars they own. Repairs are now costing them almost double what they used to cost. I hope that the Minister will see his way to exclude these men, who have a hard struggle at the moment, from the effects of this Resolution.

I had to attend a funeral at an early hour one morning last week. I took a taxi in O'Connell Street. The man whom I engaged told me that he was just about to go home, that he had been out all night and that his receipts for the night were 7/6. He said to me: "Everything we have is taxed; they have taxed our tyres, our petrol and oil; they have taxed our cigarettes and our bread and butter and they have put an extra tax on our cars." To tax that man's car is equivalent to taxing the tool which he uses to earn a livelihood. He tries to earn a living with that car so that he may be able to pay all his other taxes. I hope the Minister will see his way to exclude these men from the burden of the tax. They are a hardworking body of men. They have to be out in all kinds of weather. We are told that the tourist season has been reasonably good, but the taximen and the hackney men have a hard time during the winter. They get very little to do and are often on a back hazard for hours. Then they are called up to a front hazard outside a hotel. A man may get a call off a front hazard and the person may give him 2/6. When he makes that call he has to go back to the tailend of the hazard and wait a long time before he gets another call.

Deputy Norton drew attention to the fact that there are private people encroaching on the business of these men. It was pointed out that if there is a good fare to be taken these private individuals, with a hackney licence, take the cream of the business. That is very unfair competition. In my opinion, it is up to the men's organisation to help the Minister to eliminate it. I should like to point out—so far it has not been touched upon by any previous speaker—that a taximan must have two licences. First of all, he must have an ordinary motor driving licence and, secondly, a special licence which gives him the right to drive a taxi. I want to know from the Minister whether he is going to increase both. These taximen are having a very hard time. The taximan whom I engaged last week told me of the hard night that he had. That applies to all taximen in Dublin. He talked to me about the number of household things that are taxed. He said that they were being taxed out of existence, and wound up by saying: "Mr. Byrne, will you tell me why do they always hit the weak?" He repeated that a second time before I left him. By "they" he meant the Government.

Did he say it a third time?

Mr. Byrne

The people are saying it every hour of the day. You have taxed the bread and the butter and everything they use. Can you mention one thing that the housewife purchases that is not taxed? Is there one thing which a housewife in Dublin requires that is not taxed?

Mr. O'Higgins

The dance ticket.

Mr. Byrne

I forget that. I intend to move an amendment at a later stage to the effect that the taximen and the hackney men be excluded from this increase. I would make a special plea to the Minister to consider that. One of the Independents who is supporting the Minister's Party put up what Deputy Collins said was a double case. He did say that he hoped the Minister would get his Resolution to-night, and that there would be no amendment carried.

He then went on to extend his sympathy to the taxi drivers and the hackney men. I wonder will he vote for my amendment or for any of the other amendments, and thereby give practical effect to his sympathy, or will he be content to pay lip service only to this very deserving body? Will the Minister do better and, instead of providing the opportunity for driving the Deputy into the Lobby one way or the other, concede that it was never intended to include the taxi drivers and the hackney car drivers in either of these Resolutions?

I support the amendment moved by Deputy Norton deferring the operation of these Financial Resolutions. I have never seen Resolutions before this House which called more for reconsideration than do these two that are before us now. They are ill-conceived. They are unjust. Indeed, I would go so far as to say they are unwise. They impose taxation without any regard to the type of people who will have to meet that taxation. In imposing taxation it is a fundamental principle that those imposing it should consider the type of people who will have to meet it. The Minister proposes to impose these additional taxes without any reference to the effect they will have on the people concerned.

It may be argued that 10/- is not an inordinate increase in the cost of a motor vehicle licence. An increase from 10/- to £1 would not be unreasonable in many cases, but when one comes to apply that level of taxation to men who earn their livelihood by running hackney cars, taxis or lorries there is cause for grave dissatisfaction. Many of these men are not employed whole-time. They dare not present themselves to a potential employer without having their licences. As Deputy Norton and Deputy Byrne have pointed out, a driving licence is an implement or tool in so far as these men are concerned, and it would be just as consistent for the Minister to tax the hammer, the chisel or the saw that the carpenter uses. It is manifestly unfair to impose the same level of taxation in relation to the driving licences of men who make their livelihood by driving taxis or hackney cars as is imposed upon those who drive merely for pleasure or for some other purpose. I think this proposal is illconsidered. If the concession asked for was given by the Minister I do not think that the relief given would entail any considerable loss to the Minister.

It is also proposed to increase taxation upon vehicles. These men are earning a very precarious livelihood. I am not so conversant with conditions in the City of Dublin as I am with those in the City of Limerick and throughout the country. These men are put to the pin of their collar to earn a livelihood. Apart altogether from the hardship and injustice involved, this Resolution must result in a net increase in unemployment because people will be driven out of employment. Any taxation that reduces employment is bad taxation. These men at the present time are standing at their hazards waiting, Micawber-like, for something to turn up. Because of the increase of private motorists on the one hand and the scarcity of money in the pockets of the ordinary citizen on the other hand there is not to-day the same volume of employment for these men. They must maintain their vehicles in first-class condition. There are special officers of the Garda Síochána to check their vehicles for the protection of the public. They must use up-to-date high-powered cars. They must pay the tax on their vehicles and it is unfair that they should be asked to meet this extra burden. I hold that they should be exempt from the increases proposed under this Resolution.

The increases proposed in connection with the two and three ton lorry are not excessive. After that there are very steep increases and I think they should be reconsidered. I have no sympathy with the very heavy lorries using our roads. I would like to put them off the roads completely but I do not think it is fair to do that by way of taxation. Taxation was never intended as a secret weapon. Its purpose is to raise sufficient funds to carry on the business of the State. I would put all the heavy lorries off the road and I am sure I would be supported in that by our engineers. Maintaining the roads will be a very costly procedure so long as these 25 to 30 ton lorries continue to use our roads. I am sure the Minister is aware of the difficulty experienced in maintaining the roads. A couple of years ago we spent £19,000 per mile building up from the bog surface to the top of the road. This country could not afford to finance road construction and maintenance on that scale but that is the prospect with which it will find itself faced if these very heavy vehicles are allowed to continue using our roads. All that traffic could be diverted on to the railways. Putting these lorries off the road could be achieved by other methods apart from taxation. I do not like to see taxation abused. The engineers have advised that these heavy vehicles should not be allowed to operate. The ordinary lorry driver is entitled to protection. I object to these tractors and trailers 40 feet long twisting and turning round our roads. I have no use for them whatsoever.

For all these reasons, I consider that this proposal has been fired to the Dáil without due consideration having been given to it and to the effects it will have. As I said earlier, in some instances there will be a reduction rather than an increase, while, at the same time, it will drive out of employment some people who are making a very hard and hazardous living giving service to the public and who are entitled to be protected. For these reasons, I ask the Minister to reconsider these proposals and bring back something of a more reasonable nature, to try to achieve whatever increase he needs for the Road Fund and for the building of roads. There is no use in getting the money with one hand and, on the other hand, driving people to work on the roads with picks and shovels instead of driving hackneys—as I have seen a hackney man doing in Limerick, working a concrete mixer on the roads when he lost his job as a hackney man.

Deputy Norton should be congratulated on having to some extent manoeuvred the rest of the Opposition or the leaders of the Fine Gael Party and having got in first in this debate and thus given a general lead to the Opposition in their approach to this Bill.

Which Bill?

The motion. Deputy Norton's approach was not unreasonable. He did give away the main case against the motion, by accepting right away the principle that the very heavy lorries should be heavily taxed with a view to their elimination from the road traffic. He was not entirely reasonable in his attack on the increase in the cost of driving licences. Any person who owns a car either for pleasure or profit will not regard an increase of 10/- a year for a driver's licence as excessive, when we consider the value of money to-day as compared with its value when licences were first introduced nearly 30 years ago. If a person finds that an additional 10/- makes it impossible for him to drive a car, then he should not be driving at all.

Deputy Norton made one point which was a very interesting one. He said there are motor drivers, employees of motor owners, who have to pay their own licence fee, and he pointed out that this increase would be a hardship on them. I admit it would be a hardship on them, but I feel it is not right or proper that any employee of a motor owner should have to pay the fee for his own driving licence. The person who owns the car should not only pay his employee, but should pay for the licence also. It would be only a matter of prudence for the car owner to make that payment, so as to ensure that the driver would be duly licensed.

Another point, on which most Deputies would feel a certain amount of sympathy with Deputy Norton, was when he made the case on behalf of the taxi owners and hackney drivers. The strongest case he made in their favour was that in many cases they have to compete with wealthy people who have other sources of livelihood, and who use their cars for hackney purposes in competition with those who have to depend on them for their main source of livelihood. In so far as the increased tax on hackney drivers is concerned, the Government would be taking a more effective measure to assist those deserving people if they were to protect them from unfair competition. A man who has purchased a car for the purpose of making his livelihood out of hackney work, is entitled to be protected from competition from people who simply have cars for pleasure and who, maybe, want to earn a little pin money by using their cars now and then for hackney work. It is along these lines that the Government should proceed in seeking to help taxi owners and hackney drivers generally.

A good number of speakers on the Opposition side so far have mentioned that they are strongly opposed to this increase in the cost of driving licences and to the other taxes imposed, in so far as they concern all types of motorists. In general, there is not a strong case against the very moderate increases that are provided in this motion in respect of private cars. As a matter of fact, in the case of some types of private car the taxation is being reduced under this motion. Altogether, the increases are not substantial. It is noteworthy that a somewhat different attitude is being taken up by some members of the Opposition from that which they took up earlier in the year in regard to the Budget. At that time there were strong complaints against the increased cost of living, the reduction in bread subsidies and so on, and the suggestion was made by many speakers in opposition to the Budget and in opposition to the Government——

Are we going to discuss the Budget on this?

On a point of order, I do not want to stop the Deputy if the Chair does not, from discussing the Budget. I would love to have a discussion on it at this stage and it would be appreciated outside. But if the Deputy is going to be permitted to discuss it the rest of us also should be allowed to do so.

The Deputy will not be allowed to do so.

I would like to point out that references were made to the Budget by Deputy Blowick earlier to-day.

References were made earlier in the debate to the Budget.

I have not the slightest intention of discussing the Budget.

No—just slipping it in slightly on the side.

Earlier in the year, quite a number of people commented on the luxury cars, and asked why they should not be taxed. They commented on the number of them in the City of Dublin, and at race meetings and so on, and asked why the owners of them should not be taxed instead of the poor. Now the Government proposes to put a moderate tax on the luxury cars, as they have been described, and on the whole I do not feel that we can make any serious complaint about it. The tax on the small car which the ordinary middle-class people use for business or pleasure has been increased by only £1 or 30/-, and that is not very substantial.

I am in disagreement with many speakers on the Opposition side who said that the impost in this motion on the smaller type of commercial vehicles is not severe. I think that the impost on all types of commercial vehicles is very severe. It is even very severe on the small types of van. I think it is a severe impost. It is not, as I say, a luxury tax inasmuch as the small commercial van and the small lorry are used, in the main, for business purposes and for the purpose of people earning their livelihood.

Even though it may be only a matter of £2, £3 or £4—I suppose in the case of the small commercial vehicle it only represents an increase of £2—I think it is a severe impost. I, for one, would not support such an increase unless I could get from the Minister an assurance that every penny of this money that is being collected from the users of commercial vehicles on the road will be applied to the construction and maintenance of the roads and that, in addition——

The Minister is not even listening.

That does not matter. I am glad the Deputy is listening. In addition to that, I would like to have an assurance that this money will be used mainly or exclusively for the improvement of our county roads. Owners of commercial vehicles and of lorries of all types have got to use the roads generally for their business. This being mainly an agricultural country, they are going to use the rural roads, the county roads and small roads and many of those roads are in a very bad condition. I would like to have an assurance that, instead of applying this £800,000, or whatever it is that is involved in this motion, to making the main roads faster by removing turns and speeding up traffic on the main roads, this money will be used mainly to make the county roads more usable by those who pay this substantial contribution.

The Minister is so sure of your vote that he did not wait for you to finish.

He is not so sure at all.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is for the Wicklow People.

I will wait for the juvenile delinquents on the opposite side of the House to finish.

The senile delinquent is over there.

Mr. O'Higgins

That remark of Deptuy Cogan was most unfortunate.

Deputy Cogan should be allowed to proceed without interruption

They are assisting him, Sir.

There is one thing that concerns people more to a great extent than the increases in taxation in this motion and that is the threat that has been conveyed to the Government and to the public by Córas Iompair Éireann that private owners to a great extent will be curbed, restricted and, if possible, eliminated from the roads.

I presume this will also be noted and open for discussion.

If we are to support and accept an increase in taxation upon road users, motorists and owners of commercial vehicles, they ought to have an assurance that, having paid this, they will be immune from restrictions, interference and elimination. I think that is essential to a consideration of this problem.

Deputy Norton in opening this debate suggested that the whole matter involved in this motion should be put back for reconsideration. I think that we have got to consider the whole question of road transport in connection with this motion because it does vitally affect every phase of road transport. If people who own cars and commercial vehicles of any kind are asked to contribute £800,000 per year in additional taxation, I think they are entitled to a very definite assurance that they will be allowed to continue to operate their cars, vans and lorries without interference from any source. I think that is very essential and very important.

There are just a few points—small points, perhaps—to which I would like to refer. In this motion, there is provision for some increase in the taxation on tractors. The provision is in the main a sort of compromise. Whereas some tractors were taxed at £6 and others at £10, all tractors are now being taxed at £8. As the majority of tractors come under the £6 tax, this will amount to an increase of £2 upon the majority of tractors. I think that is also an impost, but I would like to know or to be assured that it is counteracted by a clarification of the position in regard to the use of the tractor.

The Minister, in introducing the motion, did make the point that the purposes for which the tractors may be used would be clarified, but he did not develop the point very much. I presume that, after the passing of this motion or the Bill which will further implement it, any farmer who pays an £8 tax on his tractor should have the right to use that tractor for any purpose for which he would have used his horse upon the road. That is to say, he should have the right to convey to his farm any type of produce he requires on the farm or convey to town or market any produce which he would convey by horse and cart if carters were not available.

I think it is essential that this point should be cleared up because there are district justices who have held that a £6 tax enables a farmer to carry any type of agricultural produce, including live stock, while other district justices have held a contrary opinion. I think it is unfair to farmers, and Guards who enforce the law, and unfair to everybody that confusion should exist.

I hope that if and when farmers who own tractors have contributed this tax of £8, they will be absolutely free to use their tractors without any interference with the conveyance of their produce to the town and factory or wherever it has to go. I hope they can draw whatever requirements they need on the farm, using tractors for the conveyance of their own and their neighbour's live stock. There has been interference with farmers conveying beet pulp and sugar beet to and from factories. I think such interference should be eliminated. The farmer should have a right to use his tractor for any or all purposes for which he would use his horses.

There is another small matter about which I am not quite clear. There is a reference in this motion to a tax on trailers. I assume that that tax will be only on trailers used in conjunction with goods vehicles. A great many farmers find it convenient to use a small trailer in conjunction with their private cars. If a private car is used to draw a trailer at present there is no extra tax in respect of the trailer. I hope that position will continue because, after all, you cannot convey very much goods by means of a small trailer, you cannot convey more than the car itself will carry. It is a very great convenience for a farmer going to the market to have a small trailer attached to a small car and the position should continue as it is at present. Personally, I am of opinion, although I may be wrong, that that position will continue as it is at present, but I should like to have the matter cleared up.

Those who use small commercial vehicles for their own business, whether they be farmers or small business people in provincial towns, will bear this increased impost and will accept it. I have been told by a number of representative business people and farmers that they will accept it without serious complaint if they are assured that it will not be followed by restrictions on the use to which they may apply their commercial vehicles and their lorries. I think the payment of this increased impost should be a definite assurance that they will be allowed freely to use their vehicles for all purposes for which they require them.

There is, I know, an agitation to eliminate private enterprise on the roads. That would be a disaster for the country economically and a disaster for the nation from every point of view. It is something which should be guarded against and I think this motion will have the effect of ensuring that for at least another 25 years—I think it is 25 years since there was a change in motor taxation—the users of cars and lorries will be allowed to ply their cars and lorries on the road without check or interference.

One last matter to which I want to refer is, I think, pertinent to this discussion. We are applying this increased taxation to the improvement and development of the roads. It is time for the Minister responsible for local government to take effective steps to ensure that the money granted to local authorities for improvement of the roads is used to the best advantage. I will not say any more on that point because it is a matter of administration, but I can say that at least 10/- out of every £ voted by local authorities or by the State out of the Road Fund for the maintenance and improvement of the roads is practically wasted.

We were given some portent of this impost which it is proposed to place on the already overburdened backs of the motor drivers of this country, if it is passed through this House, in the Budget statement of the Minister for Finance. Inadvertently, we were given the number of drivers' licences prematurely in that statement. It would appear that, even at that time, the motor drivers were very much to the forefront in the mind of the Minister for Finance as people whom he intended to mulct, from whom he intended to extract a few additional shillings to put into the general coffers of his Ministry. The Minister for Local Government is now deputising for him, and has introduced casually in this House and asked us to pass within a matter of hours a proposal to double the cost of drivers' licences. The Deputy who has just concluded rather naïvely suggested that this would assist in putting some of the luxury cars off the road. Will any owner of a luxury car quibble at the payment of an additional 10/-?

It is noteworthy that the number of drivers' licences for 1951 exceeded the number of licences issued for private cars by 126,730. What effect can this further tax on 126,730 people who do not own private cars have on the elimination of this luxury driving? It has already been stated by several Deputies that a driver's licence is necessary for any boy seeking a position as a driver.

One noticeable feature of this discussion is the extreme reluctance of Government Party Deputies to contribute to the debate. We await with interest the contribution which they have to offer in support of the Government's action.

Deputy Cogan spoke.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy Cogan's speech was intended for publication in a journal in his constituency. It remains to be seen whether it will be supported by his vote. Earlier this year we had strong appeals for greater production, and now in motion No. 2 we are asked to deliver another blow at the production effort in this country. We hear a lot about the flight from the land. To-night we are delivering another blow at the few amenities available in rural Ireland. Already, even before the impact of this additional impost, hackney drivers have approached us in recent months seeking employment in other spheres. I wondered how they have carried on in recent times. I am not aware of the difficulties of taxi drivers in Dublin but no doubt Dublin City Deputies are aware of them.

Speaking for the drivers in rural areas, I can say that the extension of private motoring has put them in a very bad way. These men have to pay very much increased prices for all the accessories for their cars. Furthermore, the glut in the market for second-hand vehicles means a very great depreciation in the value of the hackney cars which are condemned by the Garda as being unfit for further use in that capacity.

It means that the driver has to suffer that loss in the amount allowed in leaving in that old wreck of a car into a garage. Then he is further called on to meet the very much increased cost of a new car. That means that practically every month, quite before this was introduced, these men are being driven with their backs to the wall while their wives and families are mulcted by the already increased cost of living. Some sections of the community may by agitation put forward well documented proof of the necessity for increased wages to meet the increase in the cost of living but these unfortunate people cannot do so because they are in a highly competitive market.

Then the agricultural community are faced in this with a very severe impost. Every small farmer throughout the country will be hit by this increase. It is certainly not a luxury for him to possess a small car or to have a small convert to transport his milk to a creamery or to bring him home to carry on his productive work on the land from any visits he may have to make into the town. Every member of his family may require a licence and now we are asking to-night to double the cost of these licences.

Tractors, described in the White Paper as tending in many areas to replace the farmer's horse and cart—as no doubt they are—will be called upon to bear an additional tax of £2. It may be pertinent to warn this House that costings are increasing in every sphere of production, the cost of producing milk and butter and of the requirements of life, and here now we are still further increasing that cost. The co-operative creameries in the South of Ireland and the Dairy Disposals Board creameries are now called upon to pay immense amounts in the way of taxation on the lorries that they have for transporting their milk to the chocolate factory or to the creamery centre. That is work which cannot be done by any other transport body in this country or outside it.

The distribution of ground limestone cannot be carried out in any other way than the method now employed. This increased tax on all of those vehicles means a further impost on the cost of production which cannot fail to be reflected in the cost of living. All those points should be well borne in mind before this House so readily accedes to the casual demand of the Minister for Local Government here on the first day we meet after the recess.

The transport of beet from the field to the factory must again be carried out by lorry. The same applies in many other instances, for example, the transport of pigs and cattle from fairs and markets. I know that in my home town, where we are quite some distance from a railhead, the farmers were forced, at one time, to come to that railway station to line up there in a mile long queue with their horses and carts and to wait their turn in delivering those animals into the trucks at the railway station. It will be impossible to get them to go back to that system. It is intended in this resolution to drive those lorries off the road——

Did you hear that, Deputy Davin?

Mr. O'Sullivan

We cannot expect that the Deputy representing a Dublin constituency will be aware of these problems. I was continuing to say that there are undoubtedly very heavy commercial vehicles that are now transporting commodities which could well be conveyed on our railways but if it is the case that this increase in the driver's licence, this impost on the private hauliers throughout this country, is intended to support a system such as Córas Iompair Éireann, we can point to many disastrous occurrences in the administration of that body the elimination of which could very well put it in a better way to pay for itself. Even this week it is proposed——

(Interruption.)

Mr. O'Sullivan

——to close a branch line in my constituency and yet the bridge which is about to be dismantled under this proposed measure was painted and reconditioned this year at a cost of £1,000 to the company.

This scarcely arises on Resolutions Nos. 1 and 2.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I know, Sir, but I have been drawn into this by some interruptions. It is very important particularly in the new developments in the threshing of grain that grain would be conducted direct from the farmers' yard to the stores and mills throughout the country. Again this is work which is carried out by private hauliers and work which is being carried out by young men who spent the gratuity they got leaving the Army in purchasing lorries for work such as this. To-day they are providing the contact between the private turf producer, the man who is producing handwon turf in the mountainous and boggy districts and those men to whom they sell it, who, in turn, deliver it in the towns and cities especially in the South of Ireland. It is being made impossible for hundreds of those men, many of them married with families, to continue if they are now called upon to pay this additional impost by way of this minor matter of an increase in the cost of the driver's licence and the major problem of the increased amount under Resolution No. 2 which they are being called upon to pay to carry along their vehicles on our roads.

It would seem as if the body set up by the last Government, the Prices Advisory Body, were quite aware of the extent to which motor owners were already driven when they decided that the increase in insurance premiums which it was intended to plank upon them should be reduced. Consequently we feel that if this new impost was presented to any impartial body they in turn would definitely give it the knock-out because we feel that the present burden is quite enough to place upon the backs of the unfortunate hackney drivers of this country, on the unfortunate lorry owner, on the small farmer who has his little convert to bring his animals to market or to bring his milk to the creamery; that it is quite enough for them and for the creamery concerned bringing their milk long distances to the chocolate factories or to the creameries in the manufacture of butter, to bear the tremendous impost which was planked on them by the Minister for Finance by the increase in petrol this year. Consequently, we feel that this is a retrograde step, that it is a blow at private enterprise, that it is a damper on increased production which we are told is so vital if the economy in this country is to be improved.

This whole question of increased taxation under Resolutions Nos. 1 and 2 should be viewed against the background that the entire sum to be raised, which will amount to somewhere near the £1,000,000 mark, is to be put into the Road Fund and used for the repair of our main and second-class roads.

There is no evidence of that and no firm statement to that effect.

The Minister did not say so.

There is every indication that the roads are in many cases in very poor condition, that very large sums of money must be used to bring up these roads to a proper standard. During the war years, many of our main roads and second class roads were allowed to deteriorate. It is only by spending comparatively large sums of money as soon as we can that any effort can be made to effect an improvement. There has, so far, been no suggestion in the speeches we have heard from the Opposition as to how money could or should be raised for this very necessary work. It is very easy to protest against taxation. Taxation is something which nobody likes and it is very simple to build up a beautiful case against taxation, no matter how small; but we must remember that there is a purpose behind it and if the money is not to be found by the method suggested here, what is the alternative method put up by any of the Opposition Parties for getting it?

Most of the controversy over the past month or so with regard to this question has had to do with the fear of limitation in the radius of operation of commercial vehicles and in discussing this matter with people I met—deputations and so on—I found that the taxation end was not what worried them most. Their main worry was the fear that a 20 mile radius would be introduced, and I feel, as some other Deputies said, that, when this taxation is enforced, commercial lorries and other vehicles should be allowed to operate as they wish, subject to the conditions of the Road Traffic Act.

Having studied the figures in Resolution No. 2, I am glad to note that the percentage of increased taxation in the case of the lighter vehicles is small compared with the percentage proposed in the case of the heavier trucks and vehicles. That is as it should be, and I think the Minister could have come down even more lightly on vehicles used for the haulage of turf and farm produce. If any concessions can be given in that respect, they should be given because they are really necessary, and these people should not be asked to contribute even the light percentage which they are now asked to contribute.

So far as I can gather from the speeches I have heard from the other side, we are all agreed that heavy taxation or a complete embargo is desirable, where the very large lorries are concerned. Some Deputy said that this high percentage of increase, where lorries over eight and ten tons are concerned, will be passed on to the consumer. It is well known that large trucks which carry loads ranging from eight to 12 tons, from Dublin to the West, North and South of Ireland earn about £40 on the run, being the difference between their costs and the cost which had to be paid by rail. In the case of Donegal, it works out about £40 per load, and that profit is not passed on to the consumer. The prices of the commodities delivered by lorry now are just the same as they were when these deliveries were done by rail transport a few years ago.

Everybody knows that taxi and hackney car owners are not making profits. The vast number of private cars on the roads has cut down the numbers of their customers and a concession should definitely be made to these people, but, tied up with it, there should be something to prohibit unauthorised taxis on the roads. One of the things which is dealing a deathblow to the livelihoods of these hackney car and taxi owners is the prevalence of unauthorised vehicles which carry passengers for hire, and something should be done about it.

It was mentioned some time ago that the increases in motor insurance premiums decided on by the insurance companies were being investigated. We hope and believe that, when that investigation has been carried out, we will find a fairly substantial percentage of reduction in motor insurance premiums. Insurance companies which do motor insurance show fairly substantial profits and pay fairly substantial dividends at the end of the year, and it is hoped that the premiums for both private and commercial vehicles will be reduced.

One very good point made by Deputy Cogan—I do not propose to follow it up—was that money spent by the Department of Local Government, and by the county councils especially, on the roads is not in all cases spent to the best advantage. I am inclined to think that a good deal of the money allocated is eaten up in transport by the county councils and the employment of very many officials.

These questions do not arise on these resolutions.

I feel that this taxation is justifiable and that its purposes will be appreciated by everybody.

Might I inquire if the House intends to give me Resolution No. 1 before 9 o'clock?

No; quite a number of speakers wish to speak on it.

Might I ask, then, if you will accept a closure motion on Resolution No. 1?

That question will have to be put to the Ceann Comhairle.

At this stage in the life of Dáil Éireann, it appears to me that the Minister might be perfectly right in looking for a closure motion, because no matter how much or how long any of us speak, the Minister and his Party, with those who support him, are determined to put these proposals into operation. Without meaning any disrespect, I want to open my remarks in this strain. I think it might be appropriate at the beginning of a session, and peculiarly appropriate in view of the appeal made by the President of this State some short time ago for greater co-operation between the Parties.

I do not think anybody in Dáil Éireann will accuse me of having prejudices on any particular question. It is not just an act when I say that these proposals are contentious. That is clearly demonstrated by the speeches of Deputy Cogan and Deputy Cowan. While the Government may have their minds made up with regard to the raising of a certain amount of money which, I believe, is needed for the better maintenance of roads, the Minister should not have his mind made up on the details. Let us say for the sake of argument that there is a sum of over £800,000 needed for the upkeep of the roads. Everyone would agree that more money should be spent on the roads but the discussion should be on the question as to whether or not the methods proposed by the Minister are the right methods and whether or not he is causing hardships on a certain section or sections of the taxpayers.

I thought Deputy Cogan made a fair speech. I give him credit for that and will not attribute to him any motive other than that he wanted to make a fair comment. He disagreed with about five out of the six or seven proposals which the Minister has put before the Dáil to-day and which we have read in the White Paper that was circulated some months ago. He thought it was unfair that the hackney owner, the tractor owner and certain lorry owners should have to pay more. I think he took exception to the fact that the cost of driving licences was to be increased. He thought possibly that was a bit excessive and a bit sudden. Deputy Cowan went more or less on the same lines. He, of course, showed his determination to support these proposals hook, line and sinker.

I think these gentlemen are fairly representative of the feelings of the other members of the Fianna Fáil Party, especially in respect of the proposal that affects hackney owners and taximen. The amount that it is proposed to raise by increasing the motor tax in respect of hackneys and taxicars is £56,000—a comparatively small amount of the total figure of £830,000. Could not the Minister take the Dáil into his confidence with a view to seeing whether or not it is necessary to raise that £56,000 or, if it is necessary, by what other method it could be raised?

Generally speaking, the proposals come as a shock. I do not think they are excessive in some respects but, generally, they are a shock to people who have been already shocked by what has been described by the two sides of the House as a very harsh Budget. The Government said that it was necessary. We do not think it was necessary. Everybody agrees that it was a very harsh Budget. It must be remembered that these proposals are a Supplementary Budget affecting people who drive vehicles of one kind or another. These people are taxpayers and ratepayers. They are ratepayers who have had to bear extra burdens in the last few years and taxpayers who have to bear the burdens of the last Budget. They are people who have had to pay more for tea, bread, sugar, beer, cigarettes, tobacco and all the other things that were the subject of increased taxation in the last Budget. It is piling on the agony to ask them to bear further burdens by way of increased motor tax and the increased cost of driving licences.

The last speaker on the Fianna Fáil side of the House said that Opposition speakers had protested against this tax but had not suggested where the £830,000 for the upkeep of the roads should be found. I suggest, as I suggested three or four times in the debate on the Budget, that inasmuch as the Minister made a present of £1,300,000 to the Imperial Tobacco Company, that £1,300,000 or part of it could have been devoted to the roads. Deputy Seán Collins suggested that the £140,000 that was given by way of remission in the dance tax would have gone some way to assist county councils in their efforts to maintain and improve the roads.

My main appeal is in respect of hackney owners. Those of us who have campaigned in general elections know hackney drivers intimately. Nobody can describe them as princes or wealthy men. We must agree that they serve a very useful purpose. Possibly it is not the intention of the Minister to drive these people from the roads in an effort to help Córas Iompair Éireann, but in some cases they will be driven off the roads. There is no doubt about that. There has been a protest by the hackney owners and drivers in my constituency to the Minister for Local Government in a small effort to get him to change his mind and to change his proposals, especially those that affect their livelihood. As has been pointed out by Deputy Keyes and other speakers, one might as well tax the hammer, the chisel and the saw of the carpenter or any of the implements that any tradesman uses as tax the motor car which is the medium of livelihood for hackney owners. These people should not be harmed to the extent to which these proposals will harm them. They perform many useful services that cannot and that never will be provided by Córas Iompair Éireann. They are needed for weddings, funerals, football matches in places not served by Córas Iompair Éireann. They are a necessity to the community. Owing to the big increase in the number of cars in the country the livelihood of hackney owners has become even more precarious than it was. Often the hackney in provincial towns and rural areas might not get a run in a day.

Once or perhaps twice a week they might get a run as far as one of the principal cities—Cork, Dublin or Galway—but, by and large, I do not think any of us could say that they have a lucrative type of employment. I do not know whether or not the Minister would agree with me in this, but I am of opinion that the Irish motorist is not capable of bearing the heavy burden that he is being expected to bear at the present time, whether he be a private motorist, a hackney car owner or, in the majority of cases, a lorry owner. If we relate the big mileage of roads that need to be maintained in this country to the number of motorists, I feel all of us will agree that excess demands are being made on the motorist. Every penny that is collected by way of road tax and by way of driving licence is allocated by the Minister for Local Government to the county councils for the building, the general reconstruction, the maintenance and the upkeep of the roads. The method is different in other countries. It is different in Britain, where that particular type of contribution is far in excess of what is needed for the maintenance, general upkeep, reconstruction and building of roads.

We have a comparatively small population of motorists. I feel that the Government ought to consider the idea of not making grants out of the Road Fund to county councils for roads. What the Minister receives for the Road Fund by way of tax or from the cost of driving licences should be put into the general Exchequer and the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Local Government could then decide what amount of money should be donated for the upkeep, the reconstruction and the building of roads. I feel it is not fair to lay down that the county councils will get merely what is collected through the Road Fund. It merely amounts to this: that if there are X number of motorists in the country, they, having regard to the motor car tax, will get a comparable sum of money from the Road Fund, if there are Y motorists they will get a comparable sum, and so on. A certain amount of work needs to be done on the roads, and the Road Fund should not determine that, but the Government, in their general taxation policy, should determine it.

I make this suggestion to the Minister inasmuch as he has a proposal now before the House to increase the cost of driving licences to £1. A big proportion of the motoring population in this country motor for six months of the year only—people who cannot afford to tax a car for the whole year. I am referring to the men and women with small families who use motor cars merely for the summer period. I suggest to the Minister that he should facilitate any people who want to take out a driving licence merely for six months and charge them 10/- only.

There is also another matter which has been a bone of contention which I feel the Minister might well consider. There are unfortunate people like myself who can only afford to pay the tax on a motor car quarterly. However, we have got to pay a quarter of the tax every quarter, plus 20 per cent. That is not fair. People tax their cars every quarter because they cannot afford to pay, all at once, the tax for the whole year, be it £22, £24 or £30. At the present time the tax on my car is £24 per annum. However, due to the fact that I pay the tax quarterly, it amounts to £28 16s. for the whole year. I feel that that is very unfair and that the quarterly tax should only amount to a quarter of the yearly tax. If the Minister could not agree to that arrangement, I think he should fix the quarterly tax at a sum amounting to a quarter of the tax for the whole year, plus 10 per cent. I would appeal to him to consider these two suggestions, because they are ones which would meet some of the requirements of the poorer type of motorists and would be some sort of concession.

With all respect to every Party in the House and with all respect to the revered gentlemen who made a plea some weeks ago for co-operation, I would ask the Minister to take the House into his confidence so that we can devise between us some method whereby we can improve the roads without burdening unfortunate people who are overburdened at the present time.

I have asked the members of the House if they could see their way to give me Resolution No. 1 before 9 o'clock in order that the discussion on Resolution No. 2 could be continued. They have indicated their unwillingness to do so. Therefore, I ask you to accept a motion that the question be now put.

We object to a closure motion being moved on a matter like this that was suddenly brought before the House to-day without any adequate explanation being given as to why action contemplated in Resolution No. 1 is being taken.

Of course, the motion is that the question be now put. It is not a time for amendment or discussion.

I have a number of amendments to these two resolutions. I have not yet had an opportunity of even moving these amendments.

They can be taken on the Report Stage.

I want to dispose of the motion that the question be now put. As this is a motion seeking to impose a tax and as it may affect the finances of the State, because the motion is to come into operation to-morrow, I am agreeable to accept the motion that the question be now put.

Are you satisfied that it should come into operation to-morrow?

That is not my function. That measure will have to be comprised in the five stages of a Bill to give it legislative effect.

Mr. O'Higgins

On a point of order, might I inquire why you are accepting a closure motion at 8,29 p.m. when it is already ordered that the House will continue discussion of the resolutions until 9 p.m.

There may be more than one division.

Mr. O'Higgins

I never heard of a division taking half an hour.

Question—"That the question be now put"—put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 62.

Tá.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies P. S. Doyle and Breanndán Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.

I shall now put the amendment in the name of Deputy Norton which has been under discussion. I am putting the question: "That the words and figures proposed to be deleted stand."

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 60.

Tá.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea. Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Breanndán Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.

I move that the main question be now put.

I have tabled two amendments to this motion. I respectfully submit that it would be grossly unfair to put the main motion without allowing me to move these amendments. I think that before you can accept a motion "that the question be now put" you must be satisfied that the putting of the motion does not constitute "an infringement of the rights of a minority in the House."

As soon as this resolution was introduced to-day—without any prior notice as to the contents of the resolution— I wrote down two amendments to it which I handed to the Chair.

I have already indicated to the House that I have accepted the motion that the question be now put. The main motion will now be put.

With respect, I understood, A Cheann Comhairle that you accepted a motion "that the question be now put" in regard to the matter which was then under discussion, namely, the amendment proposed by Deputy Norton.

The terms of a closure provide that any of the motions necessary to bring the matter to a conclusion may then be moved.

With respect, my understanding of the position is borne out by the fact that the Minister has now moved that the main motion be now put.

Can it not be opposed?

That is so. I will put it to the House if the Deputy wishes.

We desire to divide on the question as to whether or not the main motion be now put.

That is not the point. Deputy MacBride is suggesting that his amendment should be dealt with.

I am putting the question that the main motion be now put.

Mr. Byrne

Am I not to have an opportunity of moving my amendment?

I think the motion is carried?

Is it not a joke to have amendments submitted when there cannot be any discussion on them?

There will be another opportunity.

Deputies are denied the opportunity on these resolutions.

On a point of order. At the beginning of the proceedings, did the Ceann Comhairle not say that, whatever urgency there might be in respect of Resolution No. 1, he would insist that amendments which were there and then submitted to the Chair would be considered?

I did not say that. I said that Deputies were entitled to submit amendments.

Yes—and, acting on that, Deputies withdrew their objection to the consideration of the motion to-day and submitted their amendments to the Chair. Now, it would appear that, having left us under the impression that these amendments would be considered——

I have already put the question that the main motion be now put. Is a Division challenged?

The Division bells are ringing.

Mr. Byrne

Do you call that democracy? Eh?

The question is: "That the main motion be now put."

In respect of which resolution?

Resolution No. 1.

The Committee divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 61.

Tá.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais.
Motion declared carried.

I am now putting Resolution No. 1.

On a point of order. It is now 9.5 p.m. and the resolution cannot be put.

Standing Orders provide that, when the initial proceedings for taking a division are taken before the time has elapsed, the division may be taken. I am putting Financial Resolution No. 1.

The Committee divided:—Tá, 70; Níl, 61.

Tá.

  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Thomas.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.

Níl.

  • Beirne, John.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Coburn, James.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.)
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Killilea; Níl: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Breanndán Mac Fheórais.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn