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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 1952

Vol. 135 No. 1

Supplementary Estimates. - Committee on Finance. Vote 6—Office of the Minister for Finance (Resumed).

I had spent some time before the break in establishing as far as I could that the White Paper on which the Budget was based was guilty of two very great errors, errors which we tried to point out at the time and failed, of course, to get any credence for our views, but errors which the lapse of the months in between has now established to the satisfaction of anybody who can consider what was said and what the events are.

These two errors were, first, that there was a large deficit of £70,000,000 in the balance of payments for the calendar year, 1951, and a likely £50,000,000 in the financial year 1952-53, the second error being that that situation, which was bad enough, phrased that way, could only be rectified by cutting imports. That was the inescapable conclusion of the White Paper, which more or less despaired of any improvement through exports.

As against that, we had our own view, on which we based a policy. It was a view and a policy which we established for ourselves during 1948, more particularly in 1949, and, although we were anxious about the situation in 1950 as divergent to 1951, we still adhered to that programme, because we felt the situation all the time would be coming in our favour and a temporary disequilibrium would soon be rectified.

I had already pointed out that the Budget was founded upon these two errors—some people have called them misrepresentations of the facts. I do not believe that they were deliberately misrepresentative but they were certainly errors, as the events have shown and as, I think, articles that were written about this White Paper have shown, they were errors to the correction of which there were many points of information that could have been adverted to and could have modified at least the views expressed in the White Paper.

From that I had tackled the second point, which was supposed to be a complication of the finance accounts in the year 1952-53, that was, whether the Budget of 1951-52 had balanced or not. Discarding the transitional, the ephemeral, the unlikely matters — at least, the matters that were not likely to occur in a future year — taking these out of the accounts of 1951-52, I felt it was proper and quite easy to show that the Budget of that year had been balanced. I approach this matter in this way: By taking the revenue produced to the Government for a future year and putting against that expenditure of the previous year and taking from expenditure the previous year such matters as were clearly not going to recur, like the arrears of fuel losses and the stockpiling matters, the figures showed that the Minister, if he had no fresh commitments in his time, could have had £2,000,000 and about £150,000 with which to approach the question of the new social services if he required to do that without any cutting of subsidies.

The third point I was making was whether the Budget of 1952-53 would balance. I always felt that it was aimed at over-balancing. The project was to pretend to accept the items that were declared to be proper to be met out of borrowing, but in reality not to accept them and to tax to the point that the whole of the Estimates, including the £9,250,000 which was established as the figure for the items proper for borrowing, would be covered.

The Minister, of course, making a special case by way of special pleading before the arbitration board, said that there was disappointment with regard to the out-turn of the revenue. Items were detailed. The calculation I made on these was about £4,500,000. Of course, that does not end the matter. We did say that the revenue to be exacted from the people in the current year was to meet the whole of the Estimates, including the £9,250,000. The last Exchequer returns, published in this morning's paper, show that expenditure at almost £60,000,000 — £59,942,000 — exceeded revenue, which is £53,648,000, by £6,293,000. Of course, that would seem to indicate that the Budget of this year is going to be very seriously out of balance.

But one must pause and inquire how much of the £9,250,000, what was described as proper for borrowing, is contained in the expenditure up to the date of November 22nd. It is not the most certain way of dealing with the matter but it is the only way that I can deal with it at the moment. If I take the fact that we have the whole of the early six months and, in addition to that, the whole of the month of October and three weeks of November, I make my calculation on the basis of the weeks that have gone and the weeks still to come. Supposing there is a proportionate expenditure of this £9,250,000 supposed to be met out of borrowing, in the time that has elapsed there should be about £6,000,000 of the £9,250,000 of those items to be borrowed met out of the expenditure. If that be the case — I do not know whether it is or not — then expenditure and revenue are roughly in balance at the present time.

It is true that the Budget will not show the return that was forecast in April of this year. We made the case that it was intended, not merely to meet the current expenditure but to meet the £9,250,000 at least, possibly £10,000,000 of what was apt for borrowing. It may be that all that sum will not be covered by current revenue but if £6,000,000 of the £9,000,000 has been met already, it means that there is only £3,000,000 to go and the best quarter of the year, from the point of view of revenue, is still to come. In the January to March period there will be the fruit of the new taxes by way of income-tax and, although there is a recession in trade, that recession does not go back far enough to have any effect upon the accounts upon which the tax will be assessed in the first quarter of next year.

I have not enough material to make any forecast but from what I have it would appear to me likely from the recent Exchequer returns that the revenue this year will meet the ordinary expenditure and leave several millions over.

I do admit that when we were talking about this in April, May and June, we did not pay enough attention, possibly, to the magnitude of the blunder that was committed by the Minister. We did not just give full effect to the impact of these taxes upon the people or to the possibility that they might refuse to smoke and to drink to the extent that they had consumed these articles before and that, therefore, the returns from the taxes might not yield as much as had been expected. There is still a calculation as to how much was expected and whether that was just the amount required to meet what is called current expenditure or whether there was in the calculation anything over and above that for these items that were at least pretended in the Budget speech to be accepted as items proper for borrowing.

In any event, the Minister can face the dilemma on his own. If he likes, he can show a deficit at the end of the year and, after all the hysteria we have had about the alleged deficit in the previous year, that will not be pleasant. On the other hand, it is possible that he may be able to show a surplus — I believe he can — and, in that event, it will be a matter then for the civil servants, the Guards, the Army and the teachers to consider how far the arbitration award had not been brought about by completely false misrepresentation made through the Minister's representatives before the arbitration board and whether they would not have a case to set aside that award on the ground that it had been procured by outrageously false and fraudulent means.

That is so much for the past and projecting a little into the future, to the end of this financial year. With regard to the future proper, the banks have been very much brought into this debate — not merely the Central Bank but the joint stock banks — and I think it proper at this time that a certain line of policy should be indicated with regard to these institutions, the banks generally, but more particularly the Central Bank as a State institution. I have said here over and over again when I have complained about the attitude of the Central Bank, and even of the joint stock banks, that I did not appear to have acted very strongly against these groups when I had certain power over them as a member of Government, and I have explained why I did not run into any sort of hasty action against them or truculen mood with regard to them.

I can repeat what I said before, hoping that it will get better appreciation now, that it is always possible for a Government in control of a majority in the Dáil like this Government to effect its will. It can do the most outrageous things — it can blunder and smash around as the present Government has done; but any group of people who are appreciative of circumstances will move rather cautiously and with a good deal of reluctance against institutions of the banking type. The banks have in the background the whole matter of credit, and it has for a long time been a platitudinous remark that credit is a tricky sort of bird, very easily frightened and not easily reattracted to the area from which it has been displaced.

I always took the line that it was better to try to achieve things by way of a change in the banking situation in this country, or to attempt to achieve that by persuasion and lead rather than by Order, Acts of the Dáil or coercion. I even disapproved of the criticism often levelled at banking institutions, which appears to be accepted by Deputy Cowan, that all the people connected with banking institutions in this country, the Central Bank included, had the wrong motives, and I object still more strongly to the argument based on the fact that it is only to be expected from such people because their background, their history, their antecedents or something about them would make them appreciative more of a policy hostile to this country than of a policy which would be attentive to its needs.

I should like to clear anybody connected with any of these banking institutions of anything in the way of wrong motive. But I think the policy has been wrong, consistently wrong, and now established as wrong, over many, many years. I attempted to sway some of these people by talking to them, by meeting them as often as I could, by argument with them and by putting certain viewpoints before them, and I must say that, at the end, I despaired of getting any fast movement in the way of change from them, and therefore was disposed to take action against them through a process of legislation. On the other hand, I was faced with this: the Government to which I belonged was engaged in a change, a very big change, with regard to the financing of what are called schemes of development in the country.

These schemes were being very ferociously assailed, mainly out of the depths of the ignorance of the people who now occupy Government seats, but there was criticism running through the country which could have done great harm to the whole credit institutions and the whole credit fabric of the State. I had the view, particularly with regard to the Central Bank, that if, when times brought a vacancy in the controllership of the Central Bank, I had taken the opportunity of dropping the present governor, as it was in my power to do, his term of office having expired, I would immediately be subjected to an argument of this type: that I was moving into new and rather treacherous ground, that I was not confident in what I was doing and therefore had to get rid of the person who would show the red light against anything I was attempting in those days.

After consultation with my colleagues, I came to the conclusion that it was better to reappoint the whole staff of the Central Bank as they came up for reappointment as one group, to let them flash their red lights all around the place, to let them disagree as violently as they could and expose their disagreement with me in public as much as they liked, reserving to myself only the right, if they did disagree with me, to take a platform somewhere in a hall in this city and give my point of view in opposition to anything the Central Bank put up. That, I felt, was meeting argument with argument and a better policy than the policy of dropping people because I did not like their viewpoint.

So we kept the Central Bank up, and, while we tried to persuade the joint stock banks to certain effort, and did definitely persuade them with regard to the £5,000,000 corporation advance, we did not take any action against them by way of changing the institution or dropping any of the personnel in so far as we had any opportunity of doing that in relation to these institutions. A new situation has now developed, however, a situation in which more definitely aggressive action can be taken against people who, I think, have given wrong advice and whose advice is now shown to be based on completely wrong information and data.

The capital programme was very much discussed and we had the scandalous matter of the advertisement through this city and through the country of the pawnbroker's three golden emblems portrayed to show that we were running the country into pawn and destroying the country's credit. The capital programme was discussed and criticised from two points of view. First, that the money was being spent on projects which did not deserve the description of capital development, and, secondly, that, whether they did or not, by spending so much money on these schemes and putting, therefore, so much money, through wages and salaries, into the hands of the people, we were creating a very bad type of inflation, a type of inflation which, if it did not mean increased prices, would mean inflated imports from the other side which, of course, showed up in the matter of the balance of payments. Finally, the point was made that there was not capital enough out of the savings of the people to finance these schemes.

We have had a certain number of years since these criticisms were first levelled at us and we have had, since the Budget came around, a very definite education of the people to an appreciation of what we meant and of how sound our policy was, in disagreement with the policy of the present Government. It was not so much that what we said had to be said over and over again in order to convince ourselves that it was true, but we had the difficult task of persuading the people, on a dry, academic and rather esoteric matter like finance, that what we were saying was correct and that what the Government was trying to establish was wrong. The fact that the Government were recently beaten by a two to one vote in a working class constituency in Dublin indicates that the population have got it into their heads that the austerity of the Budget was unnecessary. I think that is mainly the mood which provoked that amazing reaction against the Government within the past fortnight. They can bear austerity, as they showed during the war, if they believe it to be necessary, but they cannot put up with austerity which is the fruit of ignorance and wrong advice. They cannot put up with it when it is shown to their satisfaction that the whole policy was completely wrong and unnecessary.

The capital development programme has now been accepted, but I do not believe that it has been really accepted. I do not believe that the Minister's phrase which he used in the Budget, that it was not worth while for a million or two to quarrel about these capital schemes, means that it had really been accepted. He pretended to take them all in and said that there was £9,250,000 in the present Estimates, the equivalent of the £10,000,000 that we had in the Budget before for the same type of development.

We no longer have criticism of the schemes themselves. They are accepted as proper for the development of the country. We no longer have any criticism of this, that the proper way to finance these schemes is by borrowing and not by taxation. The latter point has been accepted in the Minister's Budget speech, though I believe it is a mere pretence. It has not been shown — I challenge any contradiction — that the money we spent in the three years we had a chance of spending, had the slightest effect in this country by way of inflation on prices in the country. It cannot be said that one price was raised; there was in fact no inflation of the price type by reason of what we did but it was said that inflation of imports did occur. If prices here and there did rise that was because of the impact of the Korean situation affecting the price of outside supplies. As far as this country is concerned our operations did not cause any price inflation through the years. It may be said it caused inflation by way of imports, and that only because we had such a tremendous flood of imports providing us with the goods that prices were kept level.

To come back to the Central Bank, we have shown that the situation painted so darkly in the White Paper can be rectified by an expansion of exports. In any event if we suffer for a while from the increased cost of imports, that inevitably has its corrective when the increase in prices covers the whole field and when we get a better price for exports, so that the terms of trade do not run completely against us but turn in our favour.

There is a new situation — a completely new situation. It will be quite impossible in the near future for the present Government when it becomes an Opposition again to start their run of criticism against these capital schemes. They will not be able to say that these schemes in themselves are not apt for the application of borrowed moneys nor will they hereafter be able to say that borrowing and spending on these schemes has brought about or would bring about any inflation of price. A watchful eye can be kept on the matter to see if any danger arises from that quarter, so that it can be met. In these circumstances it is only the third question that arises: is there in this country the capital that will be necessary for the development schemes we had in mind and which our successors to some extent have accepted? I believe there is. I am not sure that this capital can be provided if the Central Bank is allowed to operate as it has been doing since it was instituted and if the joint stock banks are allowed to function as they have been functioning. I have made this comment often in the House. It is only now I get an appreciation outside, an echo indicating that people who hear the phrase for the first time are astonished at the facts revealed by it, and secondly an appreciation that if these facts exist, then there is something completely wrong with the banking situation.

I have asked, not expecting any answer, whether there is any situation equal to that which we have in the whole world of banking and finance outside this country? Is there a parallel to the situation we have here in which the joint stock banks have, as they had in 1949, £183,000,000 for investment and had invested only £14,000,000 in Irish securities? One hundred and sixty-three million pounds went out of this country. These were the product of the application of labour and brains to certain materials in the country, the fruits of human endeavour here. The banks had piled up £183,000,000 for investment and of that they found it possible only to invest £14,000,000 here.

There is no parallel for that outside this country. Nine million pounds only of the £14,000,000 were in Government issues. The rest of the £14,000,000 was something else not Government issues but at home. Between Government issues and other home investments there was £14,000,000 invested. The rest, £170,000,000, was invested outside the country.

What is the reason given for that amazing situation? The situation is a little better in recent years because we forced the pace. There was persuasion if not coercion put upon them by us. It is still very bad. The ratio may not be 170 to 14 at home but it is still very bad. Even if the amount invested at home is doubled we have not anything beyond £30,000,000 invested at home and £150,000,000 invested abroad. There is no parallel to that in the world and the only excuse I have heard is to be found in this bewildering term, "liquidity." I have not yet met a banker who has advanced any argument based upon home security not being as secure as the outside one. With the recent devaluation and the abandonment of the gold standard in 1941 in mind, it would be hard for a banker to argue that an English security would be more secure than an Irish security. That argument has never been used — I give them credit for not arguing that point.

When it comes to the return on an Irish security, it is accepted that the return on an Irish security is as good as can be got from any outside security. Yield is all right. Security is all right. But the bankers say we must remember our situation with regard to liquidity. Their attitude is that we must keep our finances completely and entirely liquid. This is because owners of personal savings in this country, shopkeepers and farmers, do not ordinarily invest their money but run off immediately to the bank and lodge the money, not on current account but more often on deposit account. The banks say: "There is the money. Money on deposit account can be withdrawn at very short notice. What can we do? We must invest in securities we can immediately realise." They say as an addition to that argument that one can always realise English securities and no matter how much you throw on the market the market will absorb them without any reduction in price, but if they were lodged on the Irish market there are not enough buyers and the price will drop.

There is the argument. The whole of the community, all this mass of conservative people, the farmers, big and small, and the shopkeepers are going suddenly to descend upon the banks and demand payment of the whole £183,000,000. As against that extremely remote contingency these securities must be kept liquid so that if thrown on the English market there would be no drop in price.

The root of all this evil is to be found in the Central Bank. If any of you look at the Central Bank Report just out, you will find that the monetary circulation for the year 1952 is given at Table 6, on page 22. Incidentally, may I refer to what Deputy MacBride has often said in this House that this report of the Central Bank was not warranted under Section 36b of the Currency Act, 1927? It was always represented as "presented to the House pursuant to Section 36 of the Currency Act, 1927". I myself questioned the governor on one occasion as to whether it was proper for him to present this economic lecture pursuant to Section 36, but then told him that it did not matter, that he could publish his report in any way he pleased. It is notable that this year that phrase has been dropped. Apparently it has been discovered that this report of the Central Bank does not come properly under Section 36 of the Currency Act, and we get it baldly presented without that superscription, and we are told by the Minister that it now comes before us under Sections 6 and 8, I think, of the Central Bank Act, 1942.

However, to resume: —

"The legal tender notes for 1952 are stated to be £58,000,000, while for the year 1951 they were £54,000,000."

When one looks at the account of the Central Bank one finds they have the £54,000,000 as a liability, and as against that their assets are gold, to the extent of £2,500,000 roughly; money which is legal tender in Great Britain, about £230,000; sterling balances on current or deposit accounts at London agency or in bank in Great Britain, about £600,000; and British Government securities, £50,500,000. The whole total is £54,000,000.

The Central Bank has had this attitude always, that they must have their funds invested in either gold, money which is legal tender in Great Britain, which generally, I understand, means Bank of England notes that the Central Bank has; sterling balances held at the London agency or certain London banks or British banks or Northern Ireland banks; and British Government securities. The whole of the assets as against the legal tender notes are held in British funds or British money. In other words, the Central Bank desires to have 100 per cent. backing for the legal tender notes in the form of these easily realised securities.

Do not forget the history of this matter. The 1927 Currency Act did say in a particular section that the funds of the bank were to be lodged in certain assets and there were certain investments set out in Section 61. One of these was British Government securities maturing within 12 months. It was later discovered that the Currency Commission was operating that phrase to the extent that most of the funds were in three months' bills for which the yield was next to nothing. As a result, the 1930 Act was brought in and deleted those words, "maturing within twelve months". That left the Central Bank empowered to invest in British Government securities without their having to be of a maturity inside 12 months. Eventually in the Central Bank Act, 1942, a further amendment was made. I need not go through what was done in that Act and I think it would be a perfect summary to say that the Central Bank was empowered to invest in domestic assets. Under Section 8, it could "buy, hold or sell securities of or guaranteed by the State which have been offered for public subscription or tender before being bought by the bank and are officially quoted on the Dublin Stock Exchange and the Cork Stock Exchange, or securities of or guaranteed by the Government of any other country". A second lettered paragraph allowed them to "buy, hold or sell securities of any public authority"— that would go for a local authority —"which are authorised by law for the investment of trust funds and have been offered for public subscription or tender before being bought by the bank and are officially quoted on the Dublin Stock Exchange and on the Cork Stock Exchange".

There have been three efforts made to liberalise the situation in so far as the old Currency Commission, now the Board of the Central Bank, is concerned — first of all, they were tied to the investments they could make, and when they went to invest in British Government funds they had to be ones maturing within 12 months. Steps were taken to remove that limitation as to 12 months' maturity. The third step was taken in 1942 when they were enabled to invest in domestic assets. What has been the return of the bank for that?

In other words, were they empowered to invest in public authority investments?

If they were trustee stocks, yes — that is, the local authority stocks. They were also entitled to invest in domestic assets guaranteed by the State. What have they done? There is not a £5 note invested, since the 1942 Act was passed, in domestic assets. Take the account for this year again. Gold bullion; Bank of England notes; sterling balances held at the agency in London of the Central Bank or in banks in England or Northern Ireland; and British Government securities — the return we get on all that is some little fraction over 1 per cent. All that money has gone over to England, lent to them at 1 per cent.

Although we have to pay 4 per cent.

Five, in fact. The Minister has had to pay 5 per cent. to get people to lend him money and when the local loans go out the people who take them will be paying 5½, 5¾ or 6 per cent. Yet we have lent £54,000,000 in 1951 and nearly £59,000,000 in 1952 to England while the Central Bank which is empowered to invest those assets have not yet put a £5 note into any of our securities or local authority securities.

Let us go back to the old phrase, "yield, security and liquidity." The yield here is 1 per cent. Much more could be got for half of that amount if invested in long term things. The Minister interrupted Deputy MacBride when he was speaking on a motion and asked him if he wanted this money invested in speculative investments. Of course he does not, but one does not need to take a sudden jump from a speculative investment of the type on which you make 15 per cent. down to a single 1 per cent. on British Government short-dated securities. I have asked over and over again that those who write the Central Bank report would take advantage of the amazingly favourable situation that they are in to educate the public on this matter. They get the opportunity to write the reports every year. One of the things which is very definitely questioned in this State at the moment is their habit of investing to the extent they do in these British short-term securities. I asked several times that we should get a paragraph, for the purpose of enlightenment, in the report as to the necessity for this. I have never been favoured, either by the report or by an argument, with any indication that there was any such necessity.

An argument was made in a publication about two years ago which runs this way:

"To the first question, about the 100 per cent. backing in legal tender notes, the only answer seems to be"

— and then this is put in the quotation as if it were a reply by the Bank —

"that we must be 100 per cent. safe lest the Irish State has to go into liquidation. These notes are certificates of debt"

— so they are —

"promises to pay and a day may come when everyone will want to be paid and will want to leave the State without any legal tender at all."

That may be putting the matter too far but still I do not see anything wrong in that argument. A 100 per cent. backing must mean that the controllers of the Central Bank fear that some of these days the whole note circulation will be withdrawn and we will be left without any currency except whatever token coinage there may be.

That situation is, of course, completely outside anybody's conception. If such a situation as that emerged and there was such a run as that on the Central Bank, during which everyone would come in and demand some British Government security instead of money, the State would step in long before that could happen just as the British stepped in in 1914 and declared a moratorium. Year after year we are keeping our money locked up in bullion, in Bank of England notes, in British securities and sterling balances held in London because we are afraid that some day the whole mass of the population will descend on the Irish legal tender fund and every man-jack will come rolling into the Central Bank and demand a British security, or something, by way of payment instead of just this paper which will have lost its value.

Our whole legal tender issue is backed by sterling. That is a situation without parallel in the world, a situation in which the currency of one country is backed 100 per cent. by the security of another country. The bank was not given enough power to liberalise themselves. I offered on one occasion — I do not know whether or not the offer was taken seriously — to go one step further and amend the Currency Act and the Central Bank Act and say that a certain percentage of the moneys held by the Central Bank would have to be invested by that bank in accordance with the view of the Minister for Finance. I went to the length of saying that the Minister for Finance would have to bring the matter before the House and get an Order from the House. I offered to do that in order to take responsibility from the Board of the Central Bank and the burden off the shoulders of some political head of a Department of investing in domestic assets. I certainly think that at least a third of these should be invested in domestic assets. I think it would be a good idea to put that proposal to the bank again and then if the directors of that institution do not like it, let us take the responsibility.

I could not come in here with legislation at that time because I was engaged in changing the whole investment policy of the State and I knew that propaganda would be used. I hesitated and tried to bring the bank around by persuasion, but they would not move. Does anyone believe that any significant part of the notes outstanding will ever be presented for redemption into sterling? Does anybody believe two-thirds of the notes outstanding will be presented for redemption by sterling assets? If they do, then, of course, they must approve of the policy of the Central Bank. Is is conceivable — can anyone tell me the circumstances in which it would be conceivable?— that two-thirds of the notes would be presented and the holders of those would require payment for them by way of sterling securities?

I was not able to be present at a bankers' function held on 18th November, 1950, but a statement of mine was read to the bankers on that occasion. Part of that statement took the following form: —

"Statistics of bank deposits in Ireland for many years past will be searched in vain for evidence of a fall in deposits of any disturbing magnitude. The Banking Commission of 1934-38 remarked specifically upon the stability of bank deposits in Ireland. Since 1939 they have been moving steadily upwards, and even the heavy imports of recent years, following wartime shortages, have not resulted in a fall in deposits. Seasonal fluctuations are on a relatively small scale. Approximately four-fifths of the deposits are time deposits, only one-fifth being on current account: that is, time deposits not withdrawable by cheque represent in the main the savings of persons of a conservative turn of mind who have not hitherto shown any inclination, and are not likely to develop an urge suddenly to descend en masse to the banks to withdraw money.”

I draw attention to the next part: —

"Credit is often created but seldom destroyed. After the first world war, despite a 50 per cent. fall in prices from their post-war peaks, a policy of deflation, and long years of depression, less than one-third of the credit outstanding of the people was ever withdrawn. In present circumstances there appears to be little likelihood of any calamitous decline in bank deposits or in the monetary circulation."

I suggest that was a good statement. It was a statement based upon the experience of those in association with the British situation since 1914. It is an appreciation of the circumstances that exist here, an appreciation of the type of people who make savings in this country and who save money on deposit in the banks. Yet, we are asked to believe that there are not enough savings. I do not believe anybody can calculate what the savings are. If we are not to apply the term "savings" to money because it is put on deposit account in the banks, then we are living in a completely artificial and fictitious world.

If this were any other country, a lot of the savings on deposit account would be invested if people had the investment habit. If people had that habit they would be looking for investments, and be very glad to get investments. It is ingrained in our people over the years, however, to put money on deposit in the banks, and the banks then turn around and say: "We have a legal obligation and we must keep this money easily realisable. Hence we cannot do anything with securities." The pivot of the whole game is the Central Bank.

In Section 8 of the Central Bank Act, 1942, it is specifically stated: —

"It shall be lawful for the bank to do all or any of the following things on such occasions and to such extent as the board shall think proper."

In Section 7 it is stated: —

"It shall be lawful for the bank to do, for the purposes of or through the general fund, all or any of the following things on such occasions and to such extent as the board shall think proper."

The section goes on to give authority to invest in gold, and I come now to the two sub-sections I have already read. The bank may: —

"... buy, hold, or sell securities of or guaranteed by the State which have been offered for public subscription or tender before being bought by the bank and are officially quoted on the Dublin Stock Exchange and on the Cork Stock Exchange or securities of or guaranteed by the Government of any other country."

The second sub-section that I read gives the same permission with regard to local authority securities if they "are authorised by law for the investment of trust funds." The Central Bank can easily say they will buy and there is no nonsense thereafter. There is no difficulty about liquidity. I appreciate the answer of the joint stock banks at the moment that if they were suddenly to throw £150,000 or even £50,000 worth of any security on the market the effect would be to depress prices, because the ordinary market cannot immediately absorb money of that type.

Supposing the Central Bank said: "We will buy," and offer that to the public, and supposing the public did not buy and the bank buys instead, there is immediate liquidity. I cannot understand why the Central Bank will not do that unless it is because of this horrible fear that besets that institution that there will be an avalanche of people descending on Foster Place, demanding that the whole note issue will be liquidated at once; it is because of that fear, they keep on holding British securities against that danger.

I believe our main difficulty with regard to capital lies in these two sections. We can create conditions which will make for liquidity here and, if those conditions are not sufficient, there are other financial institutions of a liquefying type that can be created, if necessary, in order to bring about the situation that must be brought about if our capital development scheme is to continue. If that is not done with the banks, what are we up against? The Minister borrowed this year at 5 per cent. The stock is now quoted at somewhere between 2½ and 2¾ points above the issued price. The Minister pretends to believe that he gauged the market correctly: he gauged it correctly for the banks but not for the citizens. Notwithstanding all the wails, lamentations and mourning that were spread throughout the country by the Minister and his colleagues from the time they went into Government until Christmas last year, the investments that we asked people to put money in were holding their own up to September, 1951, at a small premium.

If the Minister had gone for his loan in the summer of 1951 he could have got it at 3½ per cent. without the slightest doubt. We arranged a situation for him, before he came in, with regard to a conversion loan. The conversion loan was a success. People who had their money in old-time investments at 5 per cent., and ranging down to 4 per cent., were induced to put their money into a new issue at 3½ per cent. The issue was a success. Certain moneys had to be redeemed by cash payments but that was because of the restricted way in which the issue was floated. Unless people accepted the new terms they were paid in cash. Even so, from £16,000,000 to £20,000,000 was converted at 3½ per cent.

Those conditions continued to prevail up to at least September to October, 1951, when the old stocks were running at a small premium. To the end of the year they remained at par. If the Minister had gone at any time, as he might, not for £20,000,000, but for £10,000,000 he would have got it at the prevailing 3½ per cent. rate. We used to borrow on equal terms with the British Government. The credit of this State was at least equal to theirs. We are now in the region of Southern Rhodesia, Nyasaland, the Sydney Conversion Loan and so forth. That is the situation now. The Minister, in his ignorance, chalks over that and says that he gauged the market correctly. I believe that if he went for another £15,000,000 in the morning and asked the British insurance companies to take it up at 5 per cent. they would lap it up.

Why would they not?

The Minister says — and this is the ominous part for the future — that each succeeding loan must show better terms than the preceding one. I never heard that put forward as a canon of finance before. It means that those who invest in a loan in any year must realise that their stock will depreciate the next year when another loan is floated. I think that that statement will cause terrible harm amongst the community. Great harm has already been caused by the 5 per cent. issue. There have been great losses. People have had to sell earlier loans — 3 per cent. and 3½ per cent. Their losses, in some cases, will run into hundreds. If people can hang on, well and good: they will get the guaranteed price of redemption, but if they are forced to sell they will sell at a loss. Those people are citizens of this country who were patriotic and decent. They accepted the Government's conditions and lent their money at 3 per cent. and 3½ per cent. They now find that their stocks have depreciated very seriously because of the 5 per cent. loan which the Minister had to get. Why had he to get it? I have talked a lot about the banks. I do not believe that the banks really squeezed the Minister into this. I was able to tolerate what the banks advised me, though sometimes I did not take their advice — the situation where the Central Bank involves these funds in the way it does — because I was in Easy Street so far as money was concerned. Very definitely, I was in Easy Street in that respect.

The Minister will talk, when he is concluding, about my third loan not being a success. Does anybody believe that the credit of the Government to which I belonged suffered one particle because the loan that was floated after the Korean war had opened did not fill completely through the public? It would have been characterised as a failure if I had been short of money, if I had wanted money for certain purposes and could not get it. But I had as much money as I wanted, and some to spare for the Minister. I always had the money for my schemes. I got it either through the small savings of the people, through the departmental funds which were there for investment and through what the public gave me. In the end, with some small assistance from the banks who, in the main, I had asked to keep out of the ring, the Government to which I belonged were in Easy Street, and in very Easy Street so far as the provision of money for capital development was concerned. The Minister, of course, could not face a loan not filling. He was not thinking of the good of the country. He had got one terrific rebuff in his time. That was in 1933 when he went for a loan and got only 40 per cent.

We all know that the Minister is a vain man. His vanity could not stand up against the thought that a loan might not fill. In any event, the Minister had dissipated the reserve. Let me repeat that we were not merely in Easy Street but we had money to spare. We had the American money. During the period when it was under my control, we had invested only £16,000,000. We left the Minister £24,000,000. If he had kept that as a reserve, and it was a policy that was clearly explained to him — we showed how it could have worked out in practice — against any small imperfection of the public's not responding to a loan in full, he could have kept it for six, seven or eight years. But it was dissipated in six months — what he himself called the feverish period of the spending of the Marshall Aid. That hit him. In the summer, autumn and winter of 1951 that was gone. He was in the difficulty that if he did not get his money, the development of schemes that depended on that finance might have to be changed. There might have been some disimprovement. He and his Party would be exposed. His personal vanity would suffer a cruel blow.

The people are now paying very severely for what the Minister has described as a ha'porth of tar. The smear on the ha'porth of tar so far has come only from the increased interest to be paid on the loan for housing. It will go further still. I wonder at what rate the Electricity Supply Board will get their new finances. I wonder at what rate the Agricultural Credit Corporation got money from the Minister. I wonder if the Industrial Credit Corporation will have to reduce the ante for people who go to it for help. I wonder if, in the case of all those groups which are supported by State credit, the rate of interest will be raised for them. I presume this has been done in certain instances.

The Minister was brought fairly hard up against it — not by the banks but by his own mishandling of the situation and by his inability to restrain his own spending. We are all paying now for that. When I first borrowed £12,000,000 from the public — I want this by way of contrast — and after that loan had been successfully floated, I felt in my innocence that I had a fairly easy time for some months ahead. I remember investigating at one time how this big sum of £12,000,000 was to be spent. The first shock I got was when it was hinted to me that I had not anything like that sum in hands — because a big amount of debt was left by the previous Government and had to be liquidated. Fortunately, I did not appreciate how serious the weight of that debt was until I had asked for and got a return. The return showed me that I had barely £500,000 free. The rest had to be spent on liquidating the debts that Fianna Fáil left in 1948. One of the big items was what was displayed in this House as a great effort on the part of the Fianna Fáil Government in 1947. They raised what was known as a transition development fund. As that was presented to this House, it was raised from ordinary taxation. However, if anybody investigates the finance accounts for that year they will find that whereas the £5,000,000 transition development fund was put in as something to be raised out of the ordinary taxation, the accounts for that year were in a deficit to the extent of almost the whole of the £5,000,000: I think £250,000 was not a deficit.

The £5,000,000 Transition Development Loan was just a debt which they left for me to pay. My first £12,000,000 went, except as to £2,500,000, in paying off the debts which the previous Government had left.

Coming to 1951, the Minister has stated that we left no cash except a carry-over of a certain amount. In 1951 we left the Minister £24,000,000 sterling in the bank for his spending and he spent it and spent it in six months.

He squandered it.

I do not know what it was spent on, but if it were spent on the schemes already in existence, it follows that the Minister now accepts these schemes as being proper schemes for capital expenditure. However, the good policy that we had of holding that money as reserve of some millions to skim off, if the measure of the public response to public loans which we floated did not come to 100 per cent., has now been departed from. That was a good policy, but that reserve is now dissipated and spent. A new policy has to be adopted. A new financial policy is to be accepted now that these new schemes of capital development are being taken over by the present Government, and people are being encouraged to think that it is now possible to tackle the banks and more particularly the Central Bank.

The Minister said here that it was wrong on my part to speak of the personnel of the Board of the Central Bank. I did not speak of the personnel of the Board of the Central Bank, but I think it is ridiculous to suggest that the report that we have here was written in the air and atmosphere of 1916, or that the members were thinking of the manacles worn by some of their members when they were carried through the City of Dublin at one particular period in our history. I do not see much evidence of that in the bank report itself.

We have here a Central Bank report which is presented to us pursuant to Section 36 of the Currency Act, 1927, and pursuant to the two sections which enabled the bank to take such steps "as the board may from time to time deem appropriate and advisable" towards safeguarding the integrity of the currency and ensuring that in what pertains to the control of credit, the constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole. The motto there is: "The constant and predominant aim shall be the welfare of the people as a whole." I would like to see if it would bring any change in the contents of the report if there could be an insistence on that being put on the cover of the report as being the motto and the guide to the deliberations of the board. The Central Bank were also asked to make provision "for the collection and study of data relating to monetary and credit problems and to publish informative material in regard thereto". This is presented to us as informative material, as a step deemed appropriate and advisable towards safeguarding the integrity of the currency and having the welfare of the people as a primary aim.

So far as I am concerned, I want to say that while I tried to work a certain change of policy in the Central Bank and its board in recent years by a method of persuasion, which did not get very far, I believe now that that institution has to be modelled anew. I believe legislation has to be framed and that in relation to all our circumstances and the demands that future years, particularly the near future years, will bring, the institution will have to be remodelled. It certainly will have to be changed to the point that there will be insistence, even if it be at the behest of some political Minister, that they must invest some part, a good part, of their funds in domestic assets, and they must invest in certain securities so as to bring about a situation of liquidity with the joint stock banks. I believe that if these two things are done, we shall discover that there are quite enough savings to finance all the schemes floated for the benefit of the community.

The Minister has told us in a speech that lasted three hours about all the things that have been done since 1932 onwards. I was reading recently an ancient historian's account of the old Roman imperial system. He tried to explain that the one lesson that could be drawn from his examination was the fatal effect in an age of laborious reconstruction of a body of irreconcilable conservatism among their own governing classes. I believe the Minister himself is a conservative of an irreconcilable nature, a nature that is not to be reconciled with the demands of the present. I believe that in the main the operations of the Central Bank indicate that they, too, have a conservatism that is completely outdated, and not to be reconciled with what the circumstances demand. I believe that we are in an age of reconstruction which will be laborious at the beginning. I believe that the people in our three years faced that programme and were in a mood since that acceptance to welcome its implementation. In that mood we must shape the machinery of the Central Bank so as to provide that the resources of the community will be at the disposal of the community for schemes that will be for the benefit of the community.

I have read the debates and listened to the speeches of many of those who participated in the debates on the questions that are now being discussed generally on this token Estimate. I sometimes wonder whether people make statements believing them to be true, whether they make statements deliberately not meaning them to be true, or whether there is a complete lack of appreciation of the facts that face us. I propose to come gradually to the speech of Deputy McGilligan, but before coming to the points that have been made by other speakers, I should like first of all to say that those who speak in this debate should at least indicate to the Dáil that they have some understanding of the difficulties involved in this question. I approach this matter from the point of view first of all of the balance of payments of the nation in its trading with other nations, as distinct from the internal circulation of money and internal revenue, which is of course related to taxation. When we come to separate these things, we find that the balance of payments depends on the amount of imports we have in excess of exports, and further, the power we have, if any, to fix or control the prices at which we buy these commodities which we have to import. If we did not import them it would be because we could not buy them but, when we do import them, we have to pay for them.

Now, in order to remedy the balance of payments in our favour, we have to try and increase productivity at home and, mainly, productivity of a kind that will help additional exports. Again, we have to try and get the best price possible for the articles we export — in other words, an appreciation in the price level of the goods we export at least equal to the appreciation in the price level of the goods which we import. I wonder if Deputies ever ponder on that particular aspect of the question. There are certain articles which are essential to our economy which we do not produce and hence have to import. We have to pay the ruling world price for those articles and, relative to the rest of the world, we are not a very big buyer. Therefore, we cannot control the price of these articles by refusing to buy them, even if we could do without them. Taking things in the world as they are to-day, our exports are very small in relation to the quantity of consumer goods which we have to import, particularly in relation to the export of the same class of goods from countries the world over. Consequently, in regard to our exports, we cannot fix prices. We have to take whatever the ruling prices are wherever we can find customers for our goods. I would ask Deputies to examine that side of the question and see for themselves whether that is not one of the facts of the situation which confronts us.

We have had Deputies, like Deputy MacBride, harping for years on one side of the issue — on what he calls the repatriation of our assets abroad. He has been doing that without any regard at all to the question — to whom do these assets belong, or what percentage of them have we the right to take into our hands and disburse here, or what right have we to force them back here by a form of capitation levy? Those assets belong to people who have been thrifty. They have been able to invest these moneys abroad. What right have we to force them against their own will and judgment to bring them home for investment at whatever price we suggest? I suggest to Deputies that, in this country, we are living in conformity with a certain scheme of things which permits private ownership and does not permit the restriction of private enterprise or the movement of the belongings of people from one to another or from one place to another. We have not yet quite socialised this State to the extent that every pound which a person owns is completely under the control and at the beck and call of the Minister for Finance.

What about the millions of pounds which are in the hands of the Government?

I will come to that. People talk about the £400,000,000 of the Irish assets which are to be repatriated. We have, first of all, to ascertain what is the amount of assets abroad which can properly be regarded as funds under the direct control of the Government. It is true that there are Government funds invested abroad, but I suggest that if these are dissected under their various headings it will be found that there are Acts of Parliament which force Departments of State to handle these moneys in different ways. I see Deputy MacBride nodding his head, but is there not an Act of Parliament controlling the Post Office, for example, as to how it must deal with the funds it has on deposit from its depositors?

Not since 1945.

There is an Act of Parliament which binds the Post Office to deal in certain ways with its depositors' moneys. The Post Office cannot do as it likes. It is, by Act of Parliament, subject to control.

It is not bound to invest them all.

I will come to that. It is bound by Act of Parliament as to the manner in which it handles depositors' moneys. There are also moneys under the control of the Department of Justice which belong to minors. These have to be handled in a certain way. The State is a trustee in many cases in regard to privately owned money which is under its control. Even though it is only a trustee in respect to those moneys, yet, to a certain extent, these moneys are regarded as Government funds or, at all events, Government controlled funds. The suggestion is that the Government, in regard to all the moneys which it controls, should have them invested at home in certain things and in certain ways.

I do not know whether Deputies who were listening to Deputy McGilligan realised that over the years since 1927 when the Currency Commission was first established, and which has since become the Central Bank, the amount of money transferred to it has considerably increased. There has also been a tendency towards investment. Deputy McGilligan at one time — I propose to deal with this in detail at a later stage — made use of certain statements to the House which were completely misleading and unfair. He pointed out that a change in the Act permitted the Central Bank to take up issues by local authorities, and tried to criticise it for not having done so, notwithstanding the fact that the present Act permits it to do so, but he was very careful to say, provided they were a trustee stock. Now, that was a legal trick. It was an attempt to mislead Deputy Hickey.

Does Deputy Hickey know that, when Dublin Corporation, a local authority, sought to borrow money to build houses during the administration of Deputy McGilligan, the latter insisted on the loan having a maturity of 15 years or under it? That debarred the loan from becoming a trustee stock, but Deputy McGilligan did not tell the House that. It was he who fixed the period of years in regard to these loans. At one time, I think it was 15 years. In another case the period of repayment was fixed at 14 years. The fact that that was done debarred these loans immediately from becoming a trustee stock. Therefore, the Dublin Corporation had to advertise for the raising of a loan for the City of Dublin, and by virtue of its short life, the loan was not regarded as a trustee stock.

Anything said by Deputy McGilligan or yourself has not changed my views.

The Deputy must allow Deputy Briscoe to proceed without interruption.

Deputy McGilligan talked about the fact that the Central Bank has not taken up any local authority loan and used that argument to castigate the Central Bank. He did that at a time when, with full knowledge himself, he made it impossible for the Central Bank to take up a loan because it was not a trustee stock. That is the kind of approach and criticism which we are getting instead of a fair examination of what the problem is so that we may see how we can remedy our money situation, and so that greater advantage will flow to our people. It must be done with care. It should not be dealt with by unfair and misleading statements and in a mood of criticism which does not get us nearer to each other so as to have some understanding or appreciation of the problem.

Deputy McGilligan read out a lot of figures showing that our deposits in the bank had not declined notwithstanding all the changes and all the problems and that there was not less money in circulation than pre-war. I am trying to be charitable, and I take it that he does not understand that the purchasing power of money to-day is only one-third of what it was pre-war. Therefore, if we want to have the same standard of living to-day as we had before the war, three times the amount of money has to be in circulation to purchase the same amount of goods.

Be careful that the Minister does not get after you. That is not in the Budget statement.

Deputy Davin did the citizens of Dublin a lot of damage by opening his mouth too wide and asking Córas Iompair Éireann to stop running buses from Dún Laoghaire to Dublin. When they did take off some buses, he was shouting about why they had done it. Every time he opens his mouth he creates a disturbance somewhere else. Córas Iompair Éireann must have thought that he had a great deal more power than he had.

You are giving me credit for something which I would not claim.

Deputy Briscoe must be allowed to speak without interruption.

I said earlier that this country is a democracy which protects the individual. I heard Deputy Dillon, when speaking to this motion in which he refers to tendentious nonsense, talking the utmost nonsense. First of all, he talked about timber which I dealt with on the last occasion. He also spoke about importing raisins and currants from California which had to be paid for in dollars; that this Government had committed the crime of bringing in raisins and currants from California for which we had to pay in dollars. But he did not tell the House that the currants and raisins on offer at that time from Turkey, from which country these imports had been previously got, were so dear as to become prohibitive; that the American currants and raisins were much cheaper, and although we paid for these currants and raisins in dollars we would have had to pay Turkey in gold under the balance of payments arrangement.

Do not threaten me like that.

I am not threatening the Deputy; I am trying to penetrate the Deputy's mind. I know it is difficult but I will do my best. When I speak to the Deputy, it is not meant in an offensive manner but with the best of good wishes.

You are a financial expert.

I have not posed as an expert on anything, not even on transport. I am only expressing my view as an ordinary back bencher having given this matter considerable thought over a great number of years and having listened to wise and unwise people discussing it. As to this purchase of raisins and currants, when there is no national emergency, ought we to restrict our citizens further in their dealings and their business and are we for all time to perpetuate such a control that there will be no individual liberty left about anything?

Deputy McGilligan quite rightly pointed out that one of the problems we have to face — I hope the Minister for Finance will take some notice of what I am about to say — when we come to issue loans in this country or to seek money for investment — is the fact that the stock exchange is limited in its activities and operations so that when there is a comparatively large block of shares, whether in Government loans or anything else, offered in the market, there is immediately a depression in price. The time has come when the Minister should examine the whole question of the operations of the stock exchange. He might consider ways by which the shares on our stock exchange can be readily accessible to investors other than the limited few at home so that there will be liquidity, as it was put, and the possibility of much bigger operations than we are having now.

Deputy McGilligan talked about our bank-notes. I do not know whether Deputy Hickey reads papers which show the unofficial exchange rates of currency. If he does not, I should like him to take notice of such papers as the American Time, in which he will see every week a table showing the operations of the official exchange and the unofficial exchange in relation to money. The strange thing is that Irish bank-notes command abroad a higher price in dollars or other hard currency than the English bank-notes.

That speaks well for this country.

It speaks better for this country than some Deputies speak for it.

Than the Minister when he said that he was put to the pin of his collar to save the currency.

I shall come to that. I heard Deputy McGilligan speak with such horror of raising a loan at 5 per cent. that if I had been the borrower of the Marshall Aid money, with the depreciation of the £ which followed afterwards——

Instead of the spender.

It was spent after all our other assets had been plucked out of the barrel by your people. How much will the Marshall Aid loan cost us by way of percentage? Does Deputy Hickey know that we borrowed the dollars when the rate of exchange was $4.2 to the £ and that we have to repay the dollars now when the rate of exchange is $2.80 to the £? That is a very big fall in the value of the £ apart from the interest charges that we have to pay. I should like somebody to take pencil and paper and find out at what percentage we borrowed the Marshall Aid money.

That is because there was devaluation.

We cannot have these constant interruptions.

Deputy Hickey says that this is because there was devaluation. I am glad that the Fianna Fáil Government did not borrow that money because we would have had a different song from the other side of the House. The last Government were warned about the possibility of devaluation, but they thought they knew better because the spokesman of the last Government in opposition before 1948 always guaranteed that international convertibility of sterling at par was coming in the following June, and I used to shout across the House, "At what rate?" Deputy Hickey will remember that we were promised by these people that sterling would be internationally convertible at par.

As I said, I should like the Minister to examine the whole situation surrounding our stock exchange. I believe that a great deal of good would result if it were examined thoroughly and brought up to date so that our stock exchange would not be limited in its operations, as it is more or less to the city and country generally, and to some small extent to the London exchange.

I should like to get a definition of its functions.

I was very innocent about the matter until I started to make inquiries recently. I found every stockbroker in Ireland is called a Government stockbroker.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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