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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Apr 1953

Vol. 138 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 54—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move—

That a sum not exceeding £4,529,300 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1954, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (45 and 46 Vict., c.74; 8 Edw. 7, c.48; 1 and 2 Geo. 5, c.26; the Telegraph Acts, 1863 to 1928; No. 45 of 1926; No. 14 of 1940 (secs. 30 and 31); No. 14 of 1942 (sec. 23); No. 17 of 1951, etc.), and of certain other Services administered by that Office.

The net Estimate for 1953-54 amounts to £7,005,300, being a gross total of £7,405,985 less Appropriations-in-Aid of £400,685. The net provision represents a decrease of £354,700 on the net provision for 1952-53.

The more substantial variations on the sub-heads—those of £10,000 or more —occur on the following:—

Sub-heads A (1), A (2), A (3) and A (4): Salaries, Wages and Allowances.—The increase of £24,300 is mainly attributable to normal increments of salary, etc. offset by savings on reductions in temporary force and casual employees.

Sub-head D: Purchase of Sites.— The decrease of £35,000 is due to the cost of anticipated acquisition of sites being less than in the year 1952-53.

Sub-head E (1): Conveyance of Mails by Rail.—The increase of £39,810 is required to meet higher charges by railway companies for the carriage of letter mails and to cover increased payment to the Railway Clearing House for the conveyance of parcel post.

Sub-head E (5): Conveyance of Mails by Air.—The decrease of £13,500 is attributable to a reduction in the rates to be charged by air companies for the carriage of mails.

Sub-head G (1): Stores (other than Engineering).—The decrease of £56,080 is mainly attributable to there being no provision for the purchase of emergency reserve stocks in the year 1953-54 and to portion of those stocks being used for current requirements, offset by increased cost of departmental transport, petrol, oil, spare parts and accessories and by the introduction of road taxation for State owned vehicles.

Sub-heads G (2): Uniform Clothing; G (3), Manufacture of Stamps; K, Engineering Materials.—The decrease on each of these sub-heads, viz., £55,610, £73,620 and £251,450 respectively, is mainly attributable to no provision being made for purchase of emergency reserve stocks in the year 1953-54 and to the use of portion of those stocks for current requirements.

Sub-head I (1): Salaries, Wages and Allowances (Engineering). — Increase £51,050, due to normal increments, new posts and increased provision for additional staff arising from the development of the telephone service.

Sub-head L (3): Contract Work.— The decrease of £39,750 arises from anticipated reduction in work undertaken by contractors.

Sub-head M: Telephone Capital Repayments.—Increase £152,560. I should explain that funds for the development of the telephone system are provided under the authority of the Telephone Capital Acts (1924-51) which authorises the Minister for Finance to issue sums out of the Central Fund for this purpose. Repayment of these funds is made by means of terminable annuities extending over a period not exceeding 20 years. In consultation with the Minister for Finance provision is made each year under this sub-head for the repayment of the instalments of principal and interest on the annuities created. The increased provision in the sub-head is an indication of the continuing expansion of the telephone system.

Sub-head Q (2): Provision and Installation of Equipment, etc.—The decrease of £11,770 arises from reduced contract payments for the renewal of equipment at airport radio stations.

In sub-head T—Appropriations-in-Aid —there is an increase of £92,845. Increased receipts are anticipated from the social insurance fund and the savings bank funds for the administration expenses, from the E.S.B. for work undertaken on its behalf, from the sale of obsolete stores and from the British Government for sums paid on its behalf.

Postal Service—During the past year the mail services worked satisfactorily. Letter and parcel mail traffic, which had shown a slight decline towards the end of 1951, fully recovered. Air mail traffic inward and outward continued to show an upward tendency, the most notable increase being in the traffic from the U.S.A. A very heavy volume of mail, somewhat greater than in previous years, was handled last Christmasand the public response to the appeals for early posting ensured timely delivery of correspondence and parcels. In September last a comprehensive scheme for the improvement of the night mail services to and from Counties Louth, Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal and the Six Counties was introduced. Correspondence to and from the counties affected has now been greatly expedited and their postal connections are now on the same general basis as those in the rest of the country.

The general reorganisation of services in rural areas was continued throughout the year and a daily frequency of delivery and a better standard of service has been introduced in the head office districts of Donegal, Lifford, Letterkenny, Boyle, Athlone, part of Dundalk and Tuam. Daily frequency was provided in respect of 96 posts. Revised services for six further areas are in course of preparation.

During the year six new sub-offices were opened; money order and savings bank facilities were extended to 93 sub-offices and 94 new letter-boxes were provided. In December last a new post office was opened at St. Andrew Street to replace the office at College Green which had served the needs of the locality for 80 years. The ground floor contains two main offices, bright and pleasing in appearance, one for the receipt of parcels and the second for the transaction of other public business. The survey of requirements of modern sorting equipment was continued during the year and a further 12 provincial offices were equipped with electrically operated stamp cancelling machines.

Due to unforeseen delay in the printing of essential documents, the introduction of the business reply service, to which I referred last year, had to be delayed. The necessary documents are now available and the service is about to be introduced. It is expected also that the necessary formalities in connection with the extension of the special "Literature for the Blind" postage rate to other articles intended for the use of the blind will shortly be completed and that the extended facilities will be available at an early date.

The commemorative stamp in honour of Thomas Moore to which I referred last year was issued in November last. Owing to the intervention of the printing strike, it was not possible to put the stamp on sale at an earlier date. The Moore stamp was the first stamp ever printed in the recess process in Ireland and it was, in the opinion of many experts, one of the best stamps in the series of Irish stamp issues, if not the best. A special stamp to commemorate the Tóstal was issued early in February. The stamp was printed in the letterpress process in the stamping branch of the Revenue Commissioners. In order to have the stamp on sale about two months before the commencement of the celebrations, it was necessary to have it printed as a matter of urgency for which my thanks are due to all concerned.

The 150th anniversary of the death of the Irish patriot, Robert Emmet, will occur this year and arrangements are being made to issue a special postage stamp in his honour. The stamp will be in two denominations— which have not yet been decided— and it is hoped to have it available for sale early in August.

There is clear evidence of a growing philatelic interest in Irish postage stamps. For example, approximately, 29,000 "First Day of Issue" covers were dealt with on the day of issue of the Thomas Moore stamp. The philatelic demand for the Tóstal stamp has also been satisfactory. The Department is endeavouring to meet the wishes of philatelists by the gradual introduction of light "hair line" engravings in stamp cancellation marks and the provision of case-hardened steel dies.

Telegraph Service.—In the past year the decline in the volume of telegraph traffic continued. It is hoped to have teleprinter working introduced at all major centres south of a line drawn roughly from Ennis to Dublin before the end of 1953. During the past year telegraph service was extended to 32 sub-post offices. Again, during the past year there were representations about the communication facilities with islands off the coast. As I told theHouse last year supplies of the very latest type of radio telephone equipment to replace the existing radio telegraph equipment serving the larger islands have been ordered. Delivery which has been delayed was expected next month but we have just been advised by the manufacturers that there will be further delay because of necessary alteration in design. The new equipment is designed for connection with the public telephone network and it will enable telephone calls to be made to or from the islands at all times.

At present only those islands which have a population of 100 or more are provided with communication facilities with the mainland. The decision to provide such facilities and to limit it on a population basis was taken by the Government in 1939 following consideration by a special committee which had been set up to examine the question. Representations have been made to me to extend the scheme to island with less than 100 population. It will be appreciated from what I have said that this is not strictly a matter for my Department at all. However, I am having all necessary data collected and analysed, and the matter will soon be referred to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government for such action as he may consider necessary.

Telephone Service.—Expansion and improvement of the telephone service continued during 1952. The number of trunk and local calls increased by approximately 2,500,000 in 1952. New telephone lines installed during 1952 numbered 7,234, which was a record. By the end of the present month the number of telephones in service will, it is estimated, reach 100,000, compared with 61,000 in 1948 and 77,000 in 1950. As a result of the measures taken to speed up work on the rural call office scheme, I am glad to report that a total of 246 sub-post offices were provided with public telephones last year, as compared with 171 in 1951 and 73 in 1950. A further 65 sub-post offices have been connected up to 31st March last. In order to speed the work,arrangements have been made in certain areas to have some of it, mainly the erection of poles, undertaken locally by contract. Some such contracts have already been placed. At the rate of progress realised to date every rural post office in the State will have a public telephone by next year. This will, I am sure, be welcomed by Deputies of all Parties.

The number of waiting applications on 31st March last was 4,810, made up of 2,826 in Dublin and 1,984 in the provinces. Of the total applications, all but a few were made since the beginning of 1951 and the bulk of the remainder was received since the beginning of last year. The corresponding total figures for 1951 and 1952 were 6,400 and 6,100 respectively. It will be noted that the waiting list is being steadily reduced, but the reduction would have been very much greater but that during the past year much more engineering effort than formerly was devoted to improvement of the trunk and maintenance services and to speedier completion of the rural call office scheme. I should mention that until the call office scheme is completed or nearly completed it will be necessary to continue the restrictions on the provision of long rural lines involving abnormal construction work. Thirty-eight telephone kiosks were erected during 1952 and over 22 to date this year. These figures compare with 23 kiosks erected in 1951 and 31 in 1950.

In Dublin, the new trunk exchange at St. Andrew Street was brought into operation during the past year and automatic exchanges were brought into service at Mount Merrion, Dundrum and Foxrock. An automatic exchange at Clondalkin to serve the existing Clondalkin and Tallaght manual exchange areas will be opened very shortly. An automatic exchange is in course of erection at Sutton to serve the Sutton and Howth areas.

In the provinces, a new automanual exchange was opened in Waterford in October last, and small automatic exchanges were provided at Carrickmacross, Trim and Tullow. Within the past month or so, two additional small automatic exchanges were brought into service at Dunboyne and Muine Bheag.A further similar exchange will be brought into operation shortly at Nenagh and an automanual exchange will be opened at Athlone during the summer. Other exchanges due for conversion to automatic working this year are Cobh, Tramore, Ardee, Maynooth and Cahir. Switchboard equipment was extended during 1952 at 116 manual exchanges. Within recent months, the switchboard equipment at both Galway and Sligo has been completely modernised.

The past year has been marked by the extension of no-delay trunk service to practically all the main trunk routes and to a considerable number of other routes. Altogether a total of 14,000 miles of additional trunk circuits were brought into service in 1952 which was the largest circuit mileage ever added to the system in any one year. I indicated last year that it was proposed to eliminate the long delay on calls exchanged over the main routes from Dublin to the west, north-west and south-west by means of 12-channel carrier systems. As a result of special efforts delivery of equipment was obtained and the installation work was effected between September and March last. I am glad to say that the scheme has now been largely completed— resulting in virtual doubling or trebling of circuits on the Dublin-Galway, Dublin-Sligo, Sligo-Letterkenny, Dublin-Claremorris and Killarney-Cork routes and affording substantial improvement on the long distance services to and from the west generally.

Special attention was given during the year to improvement of the trunk service in the areas with relatively high subscriber density in the neighbourhood of Dublin and Cork. Additional circuits were provided on many other routes where the need for relief was most pressing. During the coming year the work of further improving the trunk service will be pushed ahead as rapidly as possible. The programme proposed includes the installation of a 12-channel carrier system on the route between Dublin and Wexford to give additional circuits and a better service generally to the south-east; the provision of additional circuits on an extensive scale on various other importantroutes by the fitting of three-channel carrier systems and the erection of additional trunk lines on a considerable number of shorter routes throughout the country where extra lines are most badly needed.

Meanwhile the planning of a further trunk cable from Dublin to Sligo via Mullingar with a branch to Athlone is proceeding. In view of the magnitude of the work involved it will be some considerable time before the scheme is completed.

During 1952 operator dialling was introduced between Dublin and Belfast thus enabling Dublin telephonists to dial Belfast numbers without the assistance of Belfast telephonists and vice versa. It is hoped to have operator dialling in operation within the next few months between Dublin, Liverpool and London. I should also mention that automatic trunk switching equipment which enables operators to dial through an intermediate exchange to a distant exchange, for example, from Sligo through Dublin to Waterford, is now in use in some of our principal automatic exchanges and is helping to dispose of calls more expeditiously with greater economy of staff and circuit time.

Much of the work in connection with the provision of some 60 additional cross-Channel circuits to give a no-delay service to Great Britain has been done and it is hoped to have the additional circuits for the heavy summer traffic. Owing to delay in getting delivery of terminal equipment it will unfortunately be some considerable time yet before additional circuits between Dublin and Belfast in the new coaxial cable can be made available.

During 1952 continuous service was provided at 12 exchanges where the hours of service were previously restricted.

Training refresher courses for exchange operating and supervising staffs were continued during the year. Refresher courses were also organised for the first time for private branch exchange operators employed in Dublin by private firms. Judging by the number of firms who were anxious that their operators should participate,the courses appear to have filled a definite want on the part of the larger telephone subscribers.

Buildings.—Progress in the Department's building activities was marked by the opening of the new post office and telephone exchange at St. Andrew Street and a major new telephone exchange and engineering headquarters at Waterford. New garages and engineering workmen's headquarters were provided at Distillery Road, Dublin, and the main building work for a mechanical transport repair shop and garages at St. John's Road, Dublin, has been completed. Post Office improvement schemes involving structural alterations were completed or undertaken at Cork, Galway, Sligo, Birr, Clifden, Ballyhaunis, Enniscorthy and Clonmel. Building work was completed in connection with a new automatic telephone exchange at Athlone, and work on a new exchange for Sutton, County Dublin, was brought to an advanced stage.

In the current year the erection of combined Post Office and telephone exchange buildings at Drogheda, Cootehill, Kilrush, Naas and Rathluirc is scheduled for commencement, as well as separate buildings to house telephone exchanges at Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Killarney, Whitehall and Foxrock (Dublin), Greystones and Mullingar. A major extension of Clontarf Telephone Exchange will also be commenced as well as garages and engineering workmen's headquarters at Sligo. Adaptation and extension of existing premises for Post Office purposes will be carried out at Bray, Ballina, Cahir, Carrick-on-Suir, Dundalk, Dún Laoghaire, Kilkenny, Mallow, Monaghan, Youghal and Tralee.

The formalities for the acquisition of the building site at Lower Sheriff Street, Dublin, have now been completed. A combined letter and parcel sorting office with ample garage accommodation for the entire Dublin fleet of postal motor vehicles will be constructed close to Amiens Street Station. There has been an acute and growing need for such a building for many years past. I am satisfied thatthe centralisation of letter and parcel sorting in one building will lead to a distinct improvement in efficiency, to better staff conditions and to a substantial reduction in working costs.

As I intimated last year, efforts have been made to give a more attractive appearance to our provincial post offices by raising the standards of interior and exterior decoration. The possibility of introducing some of the better quality materials which have appeared in recent years is being examined. What we can achieve in this direction is, of course, limited by financial considerations, but I am confident that an appreciably higher standard generally will be achieved gradually.

Savings Banks.—The position of the Post Office Savings Bank may be regarded as reasonably satisfactory. Deposits rose from £12,655,000 in 1951 to £13,330,000 in 1952, and withdrawals from £8,647,000 to £10,967,000, a net surplus of £2,363,000 as compared with £4,008,000 for the previous year. Interest earned during the year is estimated at £1,348,000 and the total amount standing to the credit of depositors on the 31/12/1952 is approximately £57,070,000.

Deposits during the year by the Trustee Savings Banks amounted to £920,000 and withdrawals to £700,000, a decrease of £70,000 on deposits and an increase of £432,000 on withdrawals. The balance to credit of the Trustee Savings Banks at the end of the year, including £246,000 for interest, is approximately £8,513,000.

The abnormal increase in the amount of withdrawals by ordinary depositors and by the Trustee Savings Banks may be attributed largely to reinvestment in 5 per cent. National Loan, the amount being estimated at over £1,000,000.

The combined balances, Post Office and Trustee Savings Banks, on the 31/12/1952 amounted to £65,584,000 as compared with £61,406,000 on the same date in 1951.

Savings Certificates.—Business for the year showed a large increase as compared with the previous year.Receipts from sales amounted to £3,370,000, repayment of principal to £1,576,000 and interest to £638,000. Corresponding figures for 1951 were £1,479,000, £1,015,000 and £417,000. The increase in sales was mainly due to the launching of the fifth issue, with more attractive terms than its predecessor and the increase in repayments was due partly to the same cause, but mainly to the flotation of the 5 per cent. National Loan.

The amount for principal due to investors at the end of the year stood at £15,272,000 as compared with £13,477,000 at the end of 1951.

Savings.—There is running at present a publicity campaign for the encouragement of saving through the Post Office Savings Bank and Savings Certificates. It is too early yet to look for results from the campaign, which was launched only in March last, but it is hoped that, by means of it and other methods of publicity which will be used from time to time, the habit of thrift will be stimulated, especially among small savers, for whose particular convenience and benefit the Post Office savings facilities exist.

The publicity arrangements are in the hands of the director of savings, who was appointed on the 1st January last and occupies a post created mainly with the improvement of publicity in view. The present campaign embraces posters, window bills in buses and railway carriages, press advertisements, animated advertisements on cinema screens and a sponsored weekly radio programme. In addition, arrangements are in hand for the production of a documentary film which will be shown in the commercial cinemas throughout the country, as well as in colleges, clubs and local halls.

Review of financial position.—Last year, when speaking on this Estimate, I indicated that the financial position of the Post Office was unsatisfactory and I warned Deputies and the public at the time of the likelihood of an increase in Post Office charges.

I had, for the sake of accuracy, better repeat what I said during last year's estimate. I quote from columns177 and 178 of Volume 133, No. 2 of the Dáil Debates:—

"The Post Office services are one indivisible whole, and in determining our charges, it is the overall cost we have to recover and it is right that Post Office users as a whole should pay for Post Office services—there is no case for saddling the taxpayer with it. In spreading the burden over Post Office users we will only be following what is done in the larger sphere of State finances, where, in effect, taxes redistribute income through social services. So far as the Post Office is concerned, the proportion of larger users is no different to that of the better off section of the community as a whole.

So I feel I must warn Deputies and the public of the likelihood that only an increase in charges will solve the problem of Post Office finances."

On a commercial account basis the Post Office had a deficit of £317,766 in the year 1950-51, a deficit of £840,662 in the year 1951-52, the increase being largely due to the wage award of 1951, and a deficit estimated at £749,800 in the year just closed. For the coming year, 1953-54, it is estimated that the deficit will exceed £700,000. This estimate would be higher were it not that it had been decided to utilise for current requirements certain of the emergency reserve stocks already accumulated.

The losses sustained are the climax of a continuously deteriorating position beginning in 1946-47 in which a surplus of £85,000 followed one of £214,000, and was succeeded by continuously mounting deficits.

In regard to the division of losses the following are the figures:—Postal Service: Anticipated deficit for 1953-54, £244,000; Telegraph Service, £440,800; Telephone Service, £22,800.

As I have already indicated, the Department's loss in 1950-51 was £317,766 as compared with a loss of over £700,000 likely to be sustained in the current financial year. In considering the position it is instructive to examine the expenditure and income of the Department for these two years. Looking at the balancesheets I find that, while it is estimated that revenue in 1953-54 will show an increase of £1,223,000, approximately, as compared with 1950-51, the increase in expenditure in the same period is likely to exceed £1,612,000; in other words, the deficit standing at the end of 1950-51 will have increased by almost £390,000. The reasons for this tremendous increase in expenditure are not difficult to find. Wages alone increased by £592,000 per annum as a result of the 1951 wages award and this virtually nullified the effects of the increased charges imposed in that year. Mail conveyance costs have risen since 1950-51 by £141,000. The cost of maintaining the telegraph and telephone systems has increased by £247,000; rent, rates, maintenance and repair of buildings have increased by £126,000, pension liability has increased by £44,000 and depreciation of the more extensive plant now in use by £168,000. The increased expenditure on the development of the telephone system is resulting in increased interest charges of £156,000 compared with the year 1950-51. The Post Office, no more than any other concern, cannot avoid the impact of rising cost and it is, I think, a tribute to the Department that its charges have, by careful management, been kept as low as they are.

Now that I have given incontrovertible explanations for the deficit, I should describe in some detail the general features attending these grave losses.

First of all, our loss is not the result of charging excessive rates. The following figures show that rates have been held down to a point not to be found, I would say, in any other public utility or other service, even in a service where the turnover has increased and in so doing enabled overhead costs per unit of traffic or service to be kept low. Compared with that in force in 1923, the minimum letter post rate is up by 25 per cent, The minimum parcel post rate is up by only 11 per cent. Telephone rentals, business line, are up by only 8 per cent., while residential lines are 16 per cent. lower. Local calls now cost 16 per cent. less. Telegramswere, in 1923, 1/- for 12 words whereas now 1/- pays for 9 words.

There are, I am afraid, very few commodities which can be obtained to-day at only a 25 per cent. increase on even pre-war charges. Considering that it now takes 45/- to purchase what 20/- bought in 1939, the present charges for Post Office services generally are now less than 1939 in terms of purchasing power.

As the services of my Department have largely managed to escape acrimonious political discussion, I can say here and now that up and down movements in the volume of traffic cannot be connected with any of the economic changes which form the subject of debate at Budget time. Nor can I blame my predecessor for the present deficit.

The postal traffic, taken as a whole, shows no marked variation in respect of letters or parcels between 1948 and 1952, the years of post-war resettlement, the Korean boom and the subsequent recession. The telephone traffic has risen steadily but slowly from 1948. The telegraph traffic, following a war spurt, has since been decreasing.

All the added expenses, the £592,000 salary award, cost of materials, conveyance of mails, capital charges depreciation had brought about their principal effect before the controversial period from July, 1952, onwards. A large proportion relate to the prices of foreign materials, or of home materials, the cost of which rose in consequence of foreign prices rising. Indeed, the whole picture of the finances serves as a classic example of inflation where no political controversy arises as to whether the causes were induced or stimulated by Government policy.

When I took charge of the Department, I decided that before I could close the gap between revenue and expenditure I would acquaint myself with working methods in all branches and, making use of some fairly extensive experience of large-scale organisation, would have every branch of the Department subjected to close examination. This naturally took some time and I would like at this juncture to saythat the Department has for many years shown the greatest zeal in making proposals for cost reduction, all of which are constantly examined and frequently implemented. In addition, the officers specially trained in business technique continuously make proposals all leading to greater efficiency.

Taking the three services, postal, telegraph and telephone together, I am satisfied that there is no over-staffing and that every effort has been made to keep costs down. A standard of work volume is used in every phase of activity to ensure an economy in staffing which is closely adjusted to the requirements of the service and is no more than is necessary to carry them out at the level at which they are at present provided. In this connection, I would like to emphasise that, while postal traffic in 1952 was 50 per cent. above that for 1939, telegraph traffic 79 per cent. above 1939, telephone trunk traffic 191 per cent. above 1939 and local traffic 135 per cent. above 1939, the total staff increased by only 28 per cent. in the same period. These figures dispose effectively of the suggestion that there is any redundancy.

I must now examine for the benefit of the House the financial position of the three branches separately and if further particulars are required I will give these in the course of my reply.

The loss on the postal services of the Department has been growing steadily over a number of years. In 1950-51 the loss was £154,239; in 1951-52 —£367,842; in. 1952-53—£371,400. In 1953-54 the loss at current rates of charge is estimated at £244,000, but this figure is affected by reductions in expenditure which have been found possible this year but which will not be recurring. The heavy loss is due to the causes already mentioned and it is clear that it cannot be overtaken while charges remain at the present level.

The only way of achieving any substantial measure of economy in postal expenditure would be to impose serious reductions in the services afforded to the public. The largest measure of economy which could be secured would be by a reduction in the frequency of the rural postal deliveries. Our servicesare relatively more costly in rural areas than elsewhere, but to secure a saving of £150,000 by restriction of rural deliveries would involve dispensing with the equivalent of about 1,000 auxiliary postmen and reducing the present frequency of delivery on roughly 1,500 routes. I would consider such a curtailment of deliveries a most retrograde step, and I would be strongly opposed to it. Deputies of all Parties would, I am sure, be up in arms if I were to propose such a measure, as the pressure on my Department down the years has been more for increased frequency of rural delivery than for reduction.

To illustrate the care taken in keeping costs low, may I say that in many of the areas where a daily delivery has been restored the improvement has been achieved without any increase in cost?

Next, the telegraph service loses heavily here as elsewhere, the average cost to the Department per telegram handled being more than double the average charge to the sender. In the far denser urban conditions of Britain the loss of £3,378,000 yearly on the telegraph service compares with ours of over £400,000. Losses, steadily increasing in the last decade, are experienced in many countries abroad.

A detailed investigation of the telegraph service with a view to improving its financial position and efficiency is proceeding. As I said earlier in my speech, conversion to teleprinter working is continuing, and it is hoped to have this system introduced at all major centres south of a line drawn roughly from Ennis to Dublin before the end of 1953.

This will enable some small economies, measured in thousands of pounds only, to be effected. Telegraph charges are now little different from those in 1923, and are insufficient to meet higher costs. Low porterage charges result in a large number of telegrams being handled at a cost that does not leave 6d. for their transmission to the office of delivery. This cannot continue —no one can reasonably expect the Post Office to provide a service indefinitelyat rates representing only a fraction of the cost of operation. In 1952, £11,000 was collected in respect of porterage which cost the Department some £40,000. It is likewise clear that if the telegraph service, 50 per cent. of which is related to business communications and which contains a social service element, is to be run at a loss, a surplus from the telephone service must be available to meet the loss.

I now come to the telephone service. I decided that, as a first step, I would ensure a very great improvement in the speed and availability of service. The details of the progress last year I have given, but let me emphasise one fact. For an increase in engineering staff of some 12 per cent. since 1950, the increased volume of output has been:—Telephones, 11 per cent.; kiosks, 23 per cent.; call offices, 236 per cent.; exchanges increased in capacity 22 per cent. In addition, taking long-term work into consideration, additional trunk circuit mileage provided in 1952 was over 400 per cent. greater than in 1950.

I am glad to say there is continuing progress in output during the first quarter of this year. The tremendous extension of the telephone network taking place was due to plans made in 1946 and put into operation during subsequent years, but further speed in output has been ensured by changes in working methods devised as a result of regular conferences between myself and the officers of the staff.

The whole of the trunk telephone operating service in Dublin and in the provinces has been substantially improved, conditions of work improved wherever possible, training modernised and the standard of courtesy and efficiency on the part of the whole staff permanently and fundamentally raised to the level expected of a country with our tradition of hospitality and graciousness. Complaints of poor service have constantly diminished.

In regard to telephone finances, it must be borne in mind that the profit on the service, which had been decreasingcontinuously for some years, disappeared in 1951-52. The reasons for this are not far to seek. First, wage rates generally are more than 90 per cent. greater than pre-war rates—in many cases they have more than doubled. Secondly, the cost of materials has, on average, trebled since 1939. Thirdly, we have undertaken enormous capital outlay to improve and develop the service. For example, the addition last year of over 14,000 miles of circuits provides a very great improvement in standards of service, but at the same time raises annual interest depreciation and maintenance charges. Taking these three factors together—wages roughly doubled, costs of materials trebled, capital investment in the service since the end of the war nearly treble the total amount previously invested by the Irish and British Governments—one may wonder that it was possible to postpone increases in rates until 1951, when they were brought to a level only 25 per cent. over pre-war.

May I at this juncture point out facts little known to the public? First, the total capital invested in the telephone system rose from £57 per telephone in 1938-39 to £100 per telephone in 1951-52. Secondly, sample costings show that the charges for interest on capital, depreciation and maintenance on the average telephone exchange line provided at current costs in Dublin have risen to about £14 a year. The annual rental, which in the case of residence telephones is £6 5s., scarcely covers the interest on the capital alone.

Thirdly, an examination of accounts during a recent period showed that the average number of local calls per day made by some 15,000 out of 37,000 subscribers in the Dublin and Cork areas was less than two. A still larger number of subscribers in these areas are negligible trunk users. These figures indicate that, making every allowance for the fact that each additional subscriber tends to stimulate more traffic from existing subscribers, a considerable number of exchange lines are being provided and maintained at a loss.

Moreover, as the telephone habit grows, although total traffic increases, the new subscribers tend more and more to be those who will not be heavy users and the number of calls originated per subscriber tends to fall.

It may be suggested that, by reducing charges, traffic would be sufficiently stimulated to meet expenditure. That has not been the Department's experience. When charges were reduced in 1936, the surplus fell by some 40 per cent. and was not recovered until the war years when emergency conditions had stimulated traffic and a 5 per cent. surcharge had been imposed.

Lastly, Deputies may be interested to know that in the United States of America a privately run telephone administration which is generally regarded as a model of efficiency and enterprise, has raised its charges by from 25 per cent. to 28 per cent. since 1946, although it increased its total telephones from 22,500,000 to 40,000,000 since the end of 1945. In New York, despite enormous growth, certain charges have doubled since 1939. These figures show clearly that increased telephone business does not necessarily enable charges to be maintained, still less reduced. Telephone charges here are low in comparison with those in other countries in general.

Summarising, these deficits on the three services are most disturbing, amounting as they do to 12.4 per cent. of our total revenue, including credits in respect of work done for other Departments of State. An improvement could result from increased traffic as the present organisation could dispose of a good deal more traffic without commensurate extra expense, but I am afraid there is no possibility whatever of an increase in traffic of such an order as to lead to a worthwhile percentage improvement on the present position. While it has been possible to secure many small economies here and there, and these are still being sought, I am satisfied that the effect of them would be relatively insignificant in relation to our heavy deficit.

There is no case for asking the general taxpayer to continue to makeup a large deficit on Post Office working. The users of the Post Office services should pay for the services which they obtain. If we could elect to provide Post Office services only in places where they would be completely self-supporting, the problem would not be as difficult as it is. As, however, the Post Office is a public service, its facilities must be made available everywhere throughout the country and not merely in the cities and towns. Charges for service, therefore, have to be such as to recover the cost of providing the Post Office services on a country-wide basis.

Having given the matter earnest consideration, the Government has decided that there is no alternative but to increase postal, telegraph and telephone charges in order that the Post Office should be self-supporting. Should additional costs arise which would materially alter the position which the proposed increases are designed to secure, it will then be necessary to look at the whole position afresh, as it is the Government's intention that the Post Office services should continue to be self-supporting and should not have to have recourse for financing to general taxation.

The Irish Post Office is not alone in having to take this sort of step. Many other countries have had to increase their charges in recent times, amongst them being Holland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland. In Britain, for example, where the density of population is five times that of this country, and where the cost of postal deliveries and telephone communication per unit of population must be substantially less, a surplus of £20,000,000 has fallen to £5,000,000 in five years, notwithstanding substantial increases in charges. In Denmark, a recent deficit of £840,000 was heavily reduced by increased charges. The increases which it is proposed to make are the minimum that can be made consistent with prudent financing, and, in view of what I have said, I am sure that all Deputies will appreciate that no other course can be taken. The increases will still leave the general public paying for the three services at rates considerably below those whichwould be represented by the fall in the value of the pound to 8/11. At the same time, the improvement of postal services throughout the country will continue and telephone subscribers will be given a more and more rapid service, no delay service already having been introduced, as I have said, into whole regions.

The new postal and telephone charges will be implemented by the issue of statutory Orders. Before the telegraph charges can be introduced, however, a new Telegraph Act will be required, and in order that they may be brought into force on 1st August, it is essential that the new Act should be passed before that date. A short Bill for the purpose will be introduced at an early date and it is hoped to have it passed expeditiously.

In conclusion, I would like to express my appreciation of the loyal and efficient service given by the staff of all grades during the past year.

Could not the Minister indicate at this stage what these increases will be?

The charges will be published in the usual way by means of an Order some time in the course of the next few days. If Deputies wish to discuss any part of the charges it will be possible for them to do so and for me to reply in the Budget debate or on some other occasion.

Surely it is unreasonable to ask us to debate the Estimate for the Minister's Department with the information withheld from us as to what the increase in charges will be?

It is not usual in the course of an Estimate to announce increases in charge. They have been invariably announced in the past by means of the issue of statutory Orders.

I do not think that is correct.

It is all the more reason that we should be told now when mention is made that it is proposed to make the increases.

It is part of thegeneral tactics of Fianna Fáil not to give the House proper information.

I move that the Estimate be referred back. I should like to begin by thanking the Minister for making available to the Deputies on this side of the House a copy of his speech. It enabled us to follow closely his statement. It is regrettable that, although the Minister took great trouble to give reasons why he and his Department had decided to increase charges in respect of stamps, telephones and telegrams, he did not indicate the extra burdens which would be imposed. He should be in a position to do so because he was able to produce figures, make a case and present an argument which he considers would justify the imposition of these extra charges. He must know the gap he desires to bridge and, from the figures available to him in the various sections of the postal and telegraph service, he must be able at this stage to give precise figures of the proposed increased burden.

It is regrettable that the Minister announced his proposal to increase charges in respect of these services and left the House at a disadvantage by not giving the amount. I feel that the Minister is in a position to give that information. He should give it at this stage in order that the Estimate may be debated in a proper manner. We are left in the position that we have no opportunity of criticising the proposed increased burdens. The only thing we can do is to present arguments against the proposal to put any extra burden on certain services.

We have noticed that there has been in the Minister's Department a certain degree of retrenchment. We have seen that there will be a reduction of something like £300,000 compared with last year. When the Minister first decided to increase telephone charges we realised the very great burden it would impose, particularly on the business community. Everybody knows that in many cases the telephone service is more important to the business community than written correspondence. Many business firmsuse the telephone to a greater extent than they use written correspondence.

It is proposed to increased telegraph charges. I agree with the Minister that in rural areas the cost of sending a telegram must be very great but a very great proportion of our population reside in cities and towns, and it is my view that the Minister should be able to balance the position better than his figures would indicate.

I was hoping that at this stage the Minister would be in a position to say that the revenue from telephone subscribers had increased to such an extent as to enable some relief to be given. A couple of years ago, when the Department announced the increase in telephone charges, there was very great objection to it. I would ask the Minister to state precisely the extra revenue he secured as a result of the increased telephone charges.

It was obvious from the statement made by the Minister that the activity introduced into the Department by his predecessor, Deputy Everett, is being pursued vigorously by the present Minister. That is reassuring. There was a very big backlog, owing to the emergency, when materials were not available. I regret to note that there is still a waiting list of 4,800 applicants for telephones. With the increase in the supply of materials available, it should have been possible to reduce the number on the waiting list. The Minister indicated that the figure was something like 7,000 when the interParty Government took office, and, of course, many thousands of people have applied for telephones since that time. I suppose the best part of 15,000 extra telephones were provided, and, when he came into office, there were something like 6,000 people on the waiting list. I presume that telephones have been provided in these cases. I regret to see that there are still 4,800 awaiting telephones. It should have been possible in the meantime to overtake the work of providing telephones for these people more rapidly. It would appear from the Minister's statement that there are cases where people have been awaiting a telephone since 1951. I am personally aware of that fact.That is a very long waiting time. If the work is not overtaken more rapidly it means that a person applying to-day may expect to wait perhaps 12 or 18 months for a telephone. I hope that in this year the Minister will take steps to clear off the waiting list as quickly as possible. He has indicated that the average number of telephone calls by private individuals is very low, but the provision of all these extra telephones will ensure increased revenue, and that is required in order to pay the capital cost of providing even the existing services.

I am glad to note from the Minister's statement that progress has been made regarding the provision of a radio telephone service. No doubt, the development of radio telegraphy makes it imperative in this country to try to modernise in that respect. There are people living on islands around our coast, some of them a couple of miles from the coast and others a much greater distance. At times these people are left without communication with the mainland. Many of them, of course, have no communication at all, because, as the Minister indicated, the population of the island concerned is too low. In these days, with modern equipment, it ought to be possible to provide apparatus which would enable the people on these islands to establish contact with the mainland.

There is, I think, a radio telephone system operating in a general way between police stations. Some people wish to know if they were permitted under licence to provide their own transmitting and receiving apparatus, whether facilities would be granted to them to communicate either with the nearest police station on the mainland or with a central receiving and transmitting station at the post office. Either of these services would meet the need that exists in some cases where residents on these islands want communication with the mainland. It is impossible for them to have communication with the mainland except by a system of this kind. Many of them are marooned for long periods without any communication with the mainland, and a radio-telephone system would provide contact for them. I regret tolearn from the Minister, however, that, although he had expected the work of providing radio-telephones for some of the larger islands would begin next month, it is possible that there will be a further delay.

It is obvious from the Minister's statement that during the last 12 or 18 months, we have been providing these telephone services, as well as other services, from materials purchased in 1951 by the inter-Party Government. The inter-Party Government were criticised because they had taken the precaution of purchasing materials of this nature which would facilitate the carrying out of the capital development programme. If we did not get in the material at that time we could not look into the future and plan for the provision of many services which have been provided even since the change of Government. That has continued because the inter-Party Government took the precaution of getting in these materials at that time and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is a typical example of the good work of the inter-Party Government in taking those precautions at a time when another world war seemed to be on the horizon. There is a better international political position existing now and the procuring of materials is not so difficult as it was at that time. I feel that the Minister should take advantage of the position even now and ensure that the materials required are procured in order that the programme can be proceeded with.

There is a certain amount of confusion still in the rural areas concerning the postal deliveries. In some places in the country postmen on two different routes pass each other en route.Something should be done to reorganise these routes in order to cut out the need for postmen to pass each other on the road in providing services for different areas.

I also notice from the Minister's statement that a public telephone has been provided in a large number of call offices and that it is expected this year that every call office will be connected with the telephone. That is adevelopment in the right direction because communication by telephone has become almost essential in these days. It is a service which is badly needed. The provision of telephone boxes in many villages and small towns is also needed. There are many very large villages at present still without telephone boxes. I will only mention the village of Swords. In that village, if a person desires to communicate with a doctor or the police or on any urgent matter, there is no access to a public telephone box. Such a person has to go to a publican's premises and ask permission to use the telephone. Places as big as Swords anyway should be provided with a public telephone box instead of having the position as it is at present.

Reference was also made by the Minister to the activities of the Savings Bank. I should like to know whether he contemplates the provision of a proper banking service in connection with the Post Office. Such a service is provided in Belgium and probably in some other countries. The public in general who operate on a day-to-day basis there find the operation of a banking service by the Post Office quite satisfactory. I was speaking to a person who described to me the banking service available through the Post Office in Belgium and it appeared to be very efficient. It is worth while considering whether such a service should be provided here for the public in general.

The efforts of the Minister and his Department during the last year to attract investments in the Post Office Savings Bank have been successful to a certain extent, but at what price? As we know, the 5 per cent. National Loan had the effect of causing hardship and imposing extra costs in many spheres of activity, particularly in the building trade. Here we have an example on the effect on the Post Office Savings Bank which was never noted for giving a very great return for the money invested.

It came to the stage where it would have to go out of existence if it could not compete with the 5 per cent. interest offered on the National Loan last autumn. The public investing itssavings in this Savings Bank is not getting something for nothing. These people are paying through the nose for the National Loan through the medium of taxation. It is they who will have to pay both the principal and the interest, and if they get something back through the Savings Bank in the form of better terms and a higher rate of interest that is only due to them.

I was sorry to hear that the Minister intends to increase the postal charges for both parcels and letters. Business firms have a very heavy postage bill to meet, and in the long run they must pass on that charge to the public at large, and it is the consuming public who will ultimately be required to meet these extra charges. In the meantime, the business firms obliged to pay these extra charges will themselves be upset to some extent in their particular economy.

The Minister gave some figures to justify his proposal to increase charges. He mentioned that probably charges would be increased in relation to letters, telegrams and telephones. I think the Minister should have given us the figures so that we could debate this proposal in a more concrete way. The Minister did not mention whether he was giving any consideration to the claim for an adjustment in wages in so far as Post Office staffs are concerned. The staffs in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs are, together with those in other Departments, obliged to bear the increased cost of living. People in outside trades have been able to get an adjustment upwards in order to meet the increased cost of living.

That is not a matter for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. It is a matter for the Minister for Finance.

I took it some provision would be made in the Minister's Estimate.

The Civil Service arbitration award does not arise on this Vote. It is a matter for the Minister for Finance.

Very probably this proposal to increase certain charges in the Post Office will be taken to include a provision for the adjustment upwards of the salaries of the staffs of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. When making the case for these increased charges, the Minister should have adverted to the need for this adjustment. The House is at a disadvantage in debating these proposals since it does not know exactly what the proposals are.

The Minister referred to the provision of traffic circuits between Dublin and Belfast and between Dublin and the South. It is a happy augury that this system of communication should be improved to such an extent. The installation of these circuits began two or three years ago when the inter-Party Government was in office. We in the Opposition now are glad to hear they have been completed and are actually in operation. The Minister has carried on the work of his Department very actively, work which was commenced when the Minister's predecessor was in control, and I was sorry to notice that the Minister did not give credit to Deputy Everett for the work done by him in connection with the opening of the new post office in St. Andrew Street. The arrangements for that post office were well under way when the Minister took office. Reading his speech at the opening of that building, I was sorry that he did not give any credit whatsoever to his predecessor but appeared to try to snatch all the credit for himself and for his Government.

I hope that the Minister, during the course of the debate, will make a statement for the benefit of the House in relation to the scale of charges he proposes to apply and the items to which these charges will apply. I think it is rather a lame excuse for the Minister to come in and say that a Bill will be introduced containing all this information. He said he would bring in a short Bill at an early date and he hoped it would be passed expeditiously. I do not think a short Bill is necessary for the purpose of announcing the new charges. It might be necessary to implement them.

May I make an explanation in order to facilitate Deputies? There is an established tradition in these matters. In July, 1948, and again in March, 1951, two changes in charges took place during the period in office of the last Government. That Government followed a precedent established by the previous Fianna Fáil administration. The tradition is that these charges are increased by the issue of warrants or Orders. Neither in July, 1948, nor in March, 1951, did those increased charges form part of the debate on the Estimate. In July, 1951, I started the precedent by asking permission of the House to mention the fact that there would be increases of a purely minor character in relation to printed papers and parcels. That had previously been agreed to by the inter-Party Government. On that occasion I asked permission to mention the fact that these increases would take place in connection with a small amending Bill bringing Post Office legislation up-to-date. The general practice, established by precedent, is to issue a warrant and statutory Order. The warrant in the case of Post Office charges does not even have to lie on the Table of the House for 21 days before being implemented, the reason being that the Post Office is, to a considerable degree, a commercial service and is expected to pay its way. There are quite a number of precedents for that procedure, not only here but in other democratic countries. These charges are increased without any opportunity being given save in a voluntary way or because of some special occasion for their discussion by Parliament. I have simplified the position on this occasion by saying that these increases will be announced very shortly. If members have some special objection to particular charges I will be glad to deal with them later. Quite obviously, apart from relieving the taxpayer of a considerable amount of money by changing the charges, it is thought wise that these charges should be issued in the usual way according to the usual tradition, but there will be an opportunity for discussion. I do not think I can say anything more about it than that. I am not sinningagainst tradition in any respect in the way I have made these announcements. The Bill applies to telegraph charges. These charges cannot be increased beyond a certain point without legislation; otherwise, they could be increased through an Order.

When the Minister was announcing that proposal to increase the charges, in July, 1951, did he state what the increase would be before, in fact, the implementing Bill was introduced?

He did not make a statement in the Dáil or at the time of the Estimate. There were either questions in the Dáil or Press announcements. I am not blaming Deputy Everett. He followed the precedent of earlier years.

The Minister created a precedent here, surely, by announcing an increase without giving details of it.

The Minister has covered a good deal of ground and has dealt with a number of matters to which I should like to advert. He spent a good deal of time telling us about the telephonic service. From the memorandum which he circulated, we read that the number of trunk and local calls increased by approximately 2,500,000 in 1952. The Minister went on to say that new telephone lines installed in 1952 numbered 7,234, which was a record. He added that, at the end of the present month, the number of telephones in service will, it is estimated, reach 100,000, compared with 61,000 in 1948 and 77,000 in 1950. Everybody will be glad of these enormous strides in the development of our telephone services.

While we continue to install additional telephones—and the record is imposing—and while additional trunk and local calls pass through the telephone exchanges, all requiring staff and equipment, there has been no corresponding provision in the telephone exchanges throughout the country to cope with that additional traffic. From my knowledge, I should say that most of the telephone exchanges throughoutthe county are overcrowded, and that many of them are disgracefully overcrowded. I do not know whether the Minister has had an opportunity of visiting the various telephone exchanges throughout the country, but I can assure him that there are many examples of what I say. That can be confirmed by the Minister if he will visit these various exchanges. For instance, if he goes to Carlow and asks any member of the telephone staff there about the conditions in the telephone exchange in Carlow, he will hear a pretty lurid story of the conditions under which the staff there are required to deal with telephone traffic. The same may be said of other centres as well.

I suggest that the Minister should take particular interest in the telephone exchanges throughout the country. They have made no progress from the point of view of extended accommodation for the staff and the equipment comparable with the progress which has been made in the increased user of the telephone and in the increased equipment which it is necessary to install in these exchanges.

I called the attention of the Post Office to the condition of the Mallow exchange—a building which is in no sense a monument to Post Office genius, engineering or architectural skill. I think plans are on foot to remedy the condition of affairs there. With every additional phone which the Minister installs he is imposing extra hardship on the staff in these overcrowded exchanges who are expected to operate in them. I suggest that the Minister should visit these exchanges at the peak traffic hours rather than in the valley hours. If he does so, he will see the conditions under which the girls there have to work. I realise that this is not a problem that can be solved overnight or in a press-button fashion. If the Minister would devote some attention to the matter I think he might help to accelerate a solution of the burning problem of additional accommodation, particularly at those overcrowded exchanges where the problem is most acute and ought to be dealt with seriously. I hardlyimagine that this problem is new to the Minister. I should like to know what he proposes to do to achieve an overall remedy in that respect.

Related to the problem of inadequate accommodation at telephone exchanges is the matter of the general building programme of post offices. The Minister listed a number of offices where it is proposed to carry out alterations or reconstruction work during the present year. That is praiseworthy, but I fear that another generation or two will pass before the problem is dealt with if we continue to deal with it on the present basis. The Post Office has hopelessly outgrown its original clothing—if I might describe a building as "clothing." The volume of traffic at the post offices has increased enormously since they were first erected. Every new service—social services and every other kind of service from every Department of State—is now filtering through the Post Office. The result is that buildings which were built 50, 70 or 80 years ago are still, with some adaptations here and there, used to serve a unit substantially greater than that for which they were originally planned. I give the Post Office credit for being anxious to get on with the work. I believe that they do not defend the existing accommodation in many of these places. Why, however, is there so much delay in getting these essential alterations and reconstruction works carried out? I know that you have to go to the Board of Works and that only a brave man with granite-like physique can stand up to the type of treatment you receive at the Board of Works if you try to get anything done in a hurry. There, the tempo is the same as it was in the old days of Babylon. If you ask them to do something urgently, they will look at you as if you were never in the world before and never heard of the Board of Works. The first thing they do is to get a file, and from then onwards the whole problem is the file and seeing that the file is right until eventually the original purpose of the file is lost sight of. So long as the file is right, a summary can be given to people from time to time as to progress being made. I think theBoard of Works is the old man of the sea around the neck of the Post Office so far as efforts to provide improved accommodation for transacting Post Office business is concerned.

What does the Minister propose to do to accelerate this reconstruction programme—this programme of trying to extend the accommodation at offices for the transaction of business and for the accommodation of the staff—and when are we likely to see a substantial improvement in the existing office accommodation? When can we expect that the urgent problems which are in need of solution, so far as the provision of new and reconstructed buildings are concerned, will adequately be dealt with?

The Minister told us that the legal formalities in connection with the site for the new sorting and letter office had been completed. I would like to ask the Minister can he now give us any idea as to whether plans for the construction of the new office have been or are being prepared, and, if so, when these plans will go to tender; when it is likely that work will commence on the construction of the new office on the site provided near Amiens Street station. For the past 30 years Dublin has had no real central sorting and letter office that could be so described. The previous office was in a skating rink in Parnell Square and when that was burned down during the civil war it was moved to a disused and disreputable distillery building in Pearse Street, and there it has been accommodated for the past 30 years. This is the showpiece of the Post Office so far as the letter and sorting office in the capital city of this State is concerned. I would like to ask the Minister how long more it is going to take before Dublin and the Post Office service nationally gets an up-to-date letter and sorting office and when work is likely to commence on the construction of that new office.

The Minister in the course of his speech spoke about the reorganisation of services in rural areas. I would like to focus his attention on one or twomatters in that regard. I think there is need of a more understanding and broadminded approach to the staff problems than I see operating at the moment. The Post Office have got a fetish that you must bring a postman on duty at six or seven in the morning. If you ask the Post Office why the man must go on duty at that hour you get some excuse that has no relation to life at all in these small towns and villages. Everybody knows perfectly well you do not get people out of bed early in the rural towns. If the Minister was in Longford at seven in the morning he would find plenty of room in the main street. If he tried to knock up a shopkeeper at 7 or 8 a.m., he would find the shopkeeper putting his head out of the window and saying: "Will you come back some time in the evening".

It seems that the postman must be on duty at 6 a.m. or 7 a.m. with his delivery of registered letters for which he has to get a signature and with parcels which he cannot put in letter boxes. What is the purpose of sending postmen out when people are still in bed and there is nobody up to sign for the registered letter or to take the parcel. He is then obliged to hawk the parcel for the rest of his delivery and perhaps bring the registered letter back in the afternoon.

I cannot understand why it is necessary for the postman to be on duty at 7 in the morning delivering letters to firms that do not open until 9, 9.30 and sometimes 10 o'clock. There is scope for some modification of the present Post Office fetish of turning people out on the streets at that hour of the morning to deliver letters to a community, the bulk of whom in the rural areas are still in bed. It may well be that some reformer thinks we ought to get the Irish people out of bed early in the morning but surely sending postmen out at 7 in the morning with letters and parcels is not going to effect this reformation in the somnolent habits of the Irish people. If the reformation is to come it must come some other way but I see no sense whatever in bringing postmen out so early in the morning for the purpose of trying to effect deliveriesto the rural population who are still in bed.

Least of all can I understand why a postman is brought on at these early hours in the winter time when, due to summer-time adjustments, it is darker in the mornings. Why is the postman brought on in the morning in the dark with the whole office illuminated so that he can see where he is going and what he is doing? Then he is dispatched with the morning post while it is still dark. It is pretty difficult to get some Irish people up when the sun is shining but to get them out of bed on a dark winter morning perhaps to take a six-day notice from the Land Commission is a bit thick. I am afraid it is the urban and the metropolitan mind of the Post Office administrators which has produced this complete misconception as to the pattern of life in the rural areas. The area which the Minister represents is mainly a rural constituency. Very often if you spend a long time in a city your conception of life does change. You are inclined to forget what the habit of life is in the rural areas. I see no reason whatever why the Post Office should embark upon a policy of having postmen dispatched in the morning, hours before the people are up to receive the goods which the postman is delivering. I would like to hear from the Minister what he had to say in justification of that particular policy.

That brings me to another aspect of deliveries of letters in rural areas. Many of these postmen who go out early in the morning are required to wait two, three, four and five hours, without pay, at the end of the terminal point of their outward delivery; then they make a collection and come back in the evening. Many of those waiting periods at these posts are unduly long and it is a great hardship to postmen who have to spend anything from two to five hours waiting, sometimes in a shelter hut, a very uninviting institution provided by the Post Office, or in a local post office or in a local village street until it is time to make the return journey.

I do not think that serious publicinconvenience would be occasioned by shortening the waiting period of all these rural posts so that a postman would not be at the entire loss of the two to five hours which he is required to spend, without any advantage to himself or without any pay from the Post Office, waiting until it is time to make his return journey. Without any inconvenience to the public or any additional expenditure by the Post Office Department a good deal could be done to improve the conditions of postmen who are employed on these rural deliveries and employed under conditions which make heavy inroads on the limited time which they have available for social intercourse.

Last year, when replying on the Estimate, the Minister made reference to the policy of the Post Office Department and said that it was the Department's policy to expand part-time posts to full-time and to provide for an increase in the number of established postmen by decreasing the number of part-time officers. However, in reply to a parliamentary question which I submitted to him about a week ago, the Minister informed me that 12 part-time posts had been expanded from part-time to full-time during the year. I think that is, number one, not only a very slow rate of expansion but it must be the lowest rate of expansion for many years. In other years a substantially higher number of part-time posts were expanded from part-time to full-time and I would like to know how it is that the number is so low this year.

The Minister last year gave an assurance that I thought was relatively satisfactory, inasmuch as he said it was the aim of the Post Office Department, through rural revisions and in other ways, to increase the number of full-time posts and the number of fully established postmen. If that policy is not being trimmed now to suit financial exigencies, how is it that out of 56 large head offices throughout the country and a large number of salaried sub-offices and scale payment offices, it was possible to effect an expansion from part-time to full-time posts inonly 14 cases? Frankly, I had got a suspicion that the Post Office is soft-pedalling on the whole matter and that devious methods are being used to prevent the conversion of part-time to full-time posts. We have had assurances for many years—we had an assurance from the Minister last year— that it was the policy to convert part-time posts into full-time posts. I should like to know how, in the face of these assurances, such little progress was made in that field in the past year.

I am glad to see that the Minister reserved portion of his speech for Deputy Kennedy, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Social Welfare, who has taken on himself recently the rôle of organisation and methods officer. Deputy Kennedy made a rather triumphant entry to Mullingar about a fortnight ago, and there told an overwrought audience that he had discovered that there was a 20 per cent. redundancy in the Civil Service. The same redoubtable Deputy would have no difficulty in card-indexing every civil servant, if he got his way, and all that problem would be tidied up in a short time. This alleged 20 per cent. redundancy in the Civil Service, left in the capable hands of Deputy Kennedy, would no doubt be dealt with with all the efficiency which the Deputy radiates. I take portion of the Minister's speech on page 20 as indicating that the Deputy's speech can be dismissed as completely inaccurate, and I want to congratulate the Minister on having the courage to tell his misguided and mistaken colleague that, so far as the Post Office is concerned, the Deputy was talking so much ballyhoo. The Minister stated:—

"I would like at this juncture to say that the Department has for many years shown the greatest zeal in making proposals for cost reduction, all of which are constantly examined and frequently implemented."

I can testify to that effect from painful recollection. The Minister goes on :—

"In addition, the officers speciallytrained in business techniques continuously make proposals, all leading to greater efficiency. Taking the three services—postal, telegraph and telephone—together, I am satisfied that there is no over-staffing, that every effort has been made to keep costs down. A standard of work volume is used in every phase of activity to ensure an economy in staffing which is closely adjusted to the requirements of the service and is no more than is necessary to carry them out at the level at which they are at present provided. In this connection, I would like to emphasise that, while postal traffic in 1952 was 50 per cent. above that for 1939, telegraph traffic 79 per cent. above 1939, telephone trunk traffic 191 per cent. above 1939 and local traffic 135 per cent. above 1939, the total staff increased by only 28 per cent. in the same period. These figures dispose effectively of the suggestion that there is any redundancy."

I think that a most comprehensive reply to Deputy Kennedy. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will study that passage in the Minister's speech if he has time during the next few days because quite clearly the Parliamentary Secretary was talking nonsense when he made that speech against the background of the Post Office staffing. The Parliamentary Secretary was talking about something about which he knew nothing whatever.

In relation to what I have just said, I want to refer to conditions from the staff point of view in the Dublin sorting office and the Dublin registered letter office so that these may be related to the Minister's observations and the Parliamentary Secretary's statements. I do not know whether the Minister has paid a visit to the sorting office or the registered letter office in Pearse Street.

I do not know the time the Minister was there, by whom he was chaperoned or whose views he got when he was there, but I think that here is a matter worthy of the attentionof the Parliamentary Secretary against the background of the 20 per cent. redundancy he has discovered in the Civil Service. I am quite satisfied from all the information I have in this matter that the registered letter section of the Dublin sorting office is grossly under-staffed. The Post Office authorities have been asked to apply a remedy but so far they have not provided staff adequate to deal with the situation. I repeat that so far as the registered letter section in the sorting office is concerned it is not adequately staffed. I say that officers, and especially young officers, are being compelled to take chances with registered letters in regard to which the Post Office exacts a special fee for safeguards. Not only are they taking chances with registered letters but they are taking chances with their own reputations because of the way in which they are compelled to do their work in that particular section. The staff have been pared down to a minimum with the result, as the attendance books will show, that officers are required to go in before their time and are kept on after their time in order to get through the work. Too great a volume of work has to be dealt with by the number of officers engaged there in the time available.

For the life of me, I do not understand why the Post Office should resort to these huckstering methods in the registered letter section. I do not see why there should be such cheeseparing in providing a staff for the handling of registered letters. In many cases these registered letters are being balanced not on the number received by individual officers; they are being balanced on the disposal after the night's or day's work is over. That is an unhealthy situation, a situation in which there is no safety. If evidence is wanted evidence can be produced for the information of the Department.

I do not know why the Post Office should want to run the registered letter section of the sorting office on that basis or why they want to run the central sorting office on that basis. I think the public are entitled to safeguards for registered letters. The officers of the Department, who areliable to very severe interrogation which they get from time to time if registered letters or parcels are missing, are entitled to protection against being required to work under these conditions. It is unfair to the Post Office itself to ask them to work under these conditions. It is unfair to ask them to take chances. They should be facilitated to deal with these items in a satisfactory way, in a way that does not compel them to take chances with the safety of the correspondence and with their own reputation. If the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Kennedy, can find any of these redundant people about whom he spoke it is about time that some of them were sent to the sorting office, and particularly to the registered letter section, where they are urgently needed. I see no reason why this Department should be run on fire brigade lines. The Department should take steps to remedy the situation there, which is dangerous. Testimony as to the existence of that danger can be given by every single person whose job it is to work in that section. Nobody feels happy in it. Everybody feels he is taking a chance and if there is a credit balance on the registered letter everybody thanks God, but frequently no credit balance is effected.

Last year we got from the Minister an intimation, in reply to the representations which were made to him during the course of the debate on this Estimate, that he was having the question of providing mail bag cleaning apparatus examined by the Post Office department. So far the mail bag cleaning machinery has not made its appearance, with the result that the mail bags continue to be cleaned in prison. I do not think that is the best place to send mail bags for cleaning. Quite clearly prisoners are not in permanent employment and do not have to bother about pleasing the customer. They do not mind whether the customer comes back again or not.

I know of no more unsatisfactory method of cleaning mail bags than by dumping them in prison and expecting prisoners, having regard to the state of their mind, to devote theirenergies and talents to cleaning mail bags to the satisfaction of the Post Office. Every post office administration in the world has a mail bag cleaning apparatus. In many countries these apparatus are at various centres. I suppose this is the only post office administration in Europe which has no bag cleaning apparatus. Instead, we are content to allow prisoners to do the bag cleaning while the Post Office declines or at all events has succeeded in refusing, whether on its own or under compulsion by the Department of Finance, to buy a mail bag cleaning apparatus.

Last night, we were discussing the undesirability of allowing everybody to put anything he liked into mattresses and the undesirability of allowing dirty mattresses and dirty materials to be put in circulation because of their effect on health. The Post Office uses a large number of bags every year which are dragged across spit laden streets and dirty offices. These bags are used for any and every purpose and in all kinds of ways up and down the country. These bags which are inadequately cleansed are used in offices where there are large numbers of staff employed. In 1953 there is no reason why the Post Office should not march with the times. While it may not like the 20th Century, I still think it has got to put up with the fact that it has arrived and that it imposes on the Post Office an obligation to resort to bag cleaning methods which are recognised to be necessary in other administrations. What is happening in respect of the provision of this apparatus? I think it is time it should be installed. When is the Post Office going to get away from a method of cleaning bags which is the same to-day as it was 50 years ago?

The question of the recruitment of auxiliary postmen is a matter to which I should like to advert. I understand the present position to be that, when there is a vacancy for an auxiliary postman, the employment exchange is asked to select a person or persons who are then sent along to the local postmaster. The local postmasterselects the person to fill the vacancy. The person is then employed in the vacancy, but he is only employed for a couple of months when a new process is set in operation. Applications are then invited for the filling of the post, and it may turn out in many of these cases that the person who was first employed, who has been employed as a substitute for years and years, and who was first when the vacancy occurred, will be dispossessed of the post in which he has been employed so long. The vacancy is given to some other person.

That seems a rather peculiar method of filling a vacancy for auxiliary postmen. Clearly, I think that, in all equity, priority should be given to persons who have been acting regularly as substitutes on vacant posts or who have been acting as substitutes during holidays or sick leave on the part of another member of the staff, but, at all events, when a person is employed to fill the vacancy in the first instance, surely he ought to be allowed to remain in the post if he is certified to be fit? What is the purpose of having a second selection? I am satisfied that the second selection does not serve for fair play or equity.

There was an appointment made in an office recently which, I think, must smell in the nostrils of anybody who is concerned with clean administration. I refer to an appointment of an auxiliary postman in a place called Redhill in the County Cavan. Nobody can justify that appointment by any reference to any canon of fair play or equity. That is one of the things that happens once the political wanglers and hooflers get their claws in or try to place their pals in particular jobs. I do not imagine that the Minister can get much consolation out of perpetrating an outrage such as was perpetrated in Redhill recently. I imagine that in all the circumstances the Minister is a victim of his environment, a victim of the particular circumstances in that case. I cannot imagine that he can look back with pride on the appointment made there or expect any glory to vindicate clean methods of administration there. That is the kind of thingwhich happens once political hoofling is an element in the making of appointments in the public service. I would still rather see this whole business put on the basis that the employment exchange would select the person and submit his name to the Post Office. If the auxiliary postman does his job properly he should be allowed to remain in it. Why put him in for three months and then take him out? There is always the danger, as in the Redhill case, that a couple of political pals will collide with each other. The supporters of the man in question were not as high in the political firmament as those of the person who got the appointment.

I do not think that is clean administration or that it reflects any credit on the Post Office nor do I think it is a thing we should perpetuate. Some steps should be taken to adopt methods of filling appointments which will at least render the Post Office immune from that kind of hoofling in the matter of making some appointments. My own personal preference would be for getting the best and keenest in the first instance, preferably somebody who has no political axe to grind or no personal interest in the appointment. Once the person is selected he should be allowed to remain in the job unless it is shown he is unsatisfactory or not sufficiently experienced. I do not for the life of me know why a person is put in an appointment in the first instance, then taken out and dispossessed of the appointment even though no complaint has been made against him during the period he performed his duty. I hope to hear something from the Minister that the present method will not be continued. It is unsatisfactory and open to considerable abuse. From the point of view of the Minister or of the Department there is no reason why they should perpetuate a system of making appointments which is open to such obvious and, indeed, inevitable abuse.

The Minister in some portion of his speech talked about certain reorganisation of the services making it possible to bring about an improvement in relation to the working of staffs. If that is the attitude of the Post Officetowards their staffs there is one place where great improvement could be effected and that is in Dublin in connection with the sorting staff there. The carrying out of this improvement would not impose any burden on the Post Office or involve any expense. Saturday evening in Dublin is an evening when all the commercial houses are closed. Sunday is a day on which no mails are dispatched. On Saturday evening you have a situation which is entirely different from that which prevails on the other five days and nights of the week with the traffic running all the time at high pressure.

But, notwithstanding the fact that virtually all business houses in the city close down on a Saturday afternoon and that no mails are dispatched the following day, duties are still scheduled up to 11 o'clock on Saturday night for officers employed in the sorting and letter office. I think that, without causing any inconvenience to the Post Office or involving any expenditure to the Post Office, these duties could be reorganised in such a way as to close the office after the night mail dispatch had been effected. In that way, the Post Office could show that it appreciated the services rendered by the staff by allowing them off duty on a Saturday night, which, by custom, is the night that people like to have a few hours free to themselves.

When Deputies bear in mind that this staff has no weekly half-holiday on a Monday, Wednesday, Saturday or any other day, a concession of that kind would be appreciated, and I do not think there would be any insuperable difficulty in providing it. I hope that the Minister will carry his interest in staff matters to the extent that he will have that matter investigated with a view to seeing whether the necessary adjustment of duties could not be made so as to permit the staff to be off duty on that evening when, as the Minister knows, Dublin folk, at all events, like to be able to have a few hours to themselves.

These are some of the remarks which I wanted to raise on the Estimate. I hope that the Minister, when replying, will be able to give us some indicationthat he proposes to take these matters to a stage nearer a satisfactory solution than they are in just at the moment.

I desire to refer briefly to the dissatisfaction that exists in rural areas with regard to deliveries. It is an extraordinary thing that in the present year there are many rural areas that have no daily deliveries. I feel from my examination of the problem—I admit that my knowledge on the matter is rather limited—that, without involving any extra cost or the employment of any additional staff but rather by reorganisation, daily deliveries could be provided in almost all the rural areas. As an instance of what I mean, I will take what occurs in the Castlerea postal area where you have deliveries for three townlands, namely, Frenchlawn, Shancough and Ballyfinnegan, from the Castlerea Post Office, while actually those three townlands are adjacent to Ballintubber Post Office, and could be served without any difficulty whatever by the postman operating in the Ballintubber postal area. What Deputy Rooney said is quite true, that in parts of the country you find postmen passing each other on their daily rounds. When that happens, it must strike one that there is some lack of organisation in that regard. I suggest that something requires to be done in that district, and I hope that the officers of the Minister will give early attention to it.

With the exception of that particular point, I do not think there is any great complaint at all against the running of the Post Office so far as my area is concerned. There is, however, dissatisfaction with regard to the delay that has taken place in providing certain post offices with telephones. I am relieved, however, to learn that this matter is getting attention and will be remedied within the next 12 months.

Recently, I made representations to the Minister with regard to the provision of a telephone at Ballymacurley Post Office, County Roscommon. The nearest telephone to that office is five miles distant, and so a great hardship is imposed on the people who reside in the area. That can be readilyappreciated when I say that if the people there require the services of a doctor, a nurse or a vet, they have to cycle a distance of five miles to telephone and get into communication with them. In fact, the Government's failure to provide the simple facility I speak of might mean the loss of a human life. I was disheartened, as the local people were disheartened, by a communication which I received from the Minister in regard to that matter a couple of weeks ago. He did not hold out any great hope of being able to relieve that situation in the near future. However, judging from his introductory speech to-day, the position would appear to be better than we had reason to anticipate.

If I am rightly informed, representations were made by the officers in the Engineering Branch of the Post Office to the Department of Finance to the effect that they required extra trainees in the engineering section, particularly in the age group 18 to 21. These representations were made about 12 months ago, and still nothing has been done. As a matter of fact, several young boys were interviewed. They were put to considerable personal inconvenience by being brought long distances for the interview, and then it was discovered that the necessary sanction was not forthcoming from the Department of Finance. I would urge the Minister to take the matter up again with the Department of Finance, and to point out to it that it is absolutely essential to have a number of trainees always available. I think myself that this particular section of the Department is one that is bound to grow, and that considerations of economy in the Department of Finance should not be allowed to militate against its effective organisation.

I would like to conclude by associating myself with what has been said by Deputy Norton about the appointment of auxiliary postmen. There is the feeling, rightly or wrongly, in the various postal areas that, unless you happen to be a supporter of a certain political Party, there is no use looking for that job. That feeling may be ill-founded. I do not know, but at anyrate the feeling exists. If some method of appointment could be devised that would relieve potential applicants of that feeling, I think it would be very desirable. Certain experiences in the past have given good reason to believe that there is some foundation for it. I think that if some independent body, or some person entirely removed from politics who could be relied upon, were given responsibility for the making of these appointments, it would be far more satisfactory. Undoubtedly, it has happened in the past that applicants who were well fitted for appointment and whose domestic circumstances entitled them to prior consideration, were relegated to the background, while people who could not be regarded as competent at all, and whose domestic circumstances were reasonably satisfactory, got the appointment. I am not blaming the Minister for that because I know it happened before the Minister became Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. The point, however, is that the feeling continues to exist. I would, therefore, urge on the Minister to adopt Deputy Norton's suggestion and try some other means of making these appointments.

It was gratifying to learn from the Minister's statement that it is hoped to have telephones installed in all sub-post offices during the next 12 months. It would be well, too, if there could be a daily delivery of letters to all rural areas. That really is very necessary. While, during the past two or three years, good provision in that respect was made for the urban areas, the fact is that the rural areas were forgotten. It is absolutely essential in the rural areas that we should have not only daily letter deliveries, if possible, but also proper telephonic communication.

In connection with daily deliveries, I would imagine that where there are only three deliveries at present, in order to carry out a daily delivery there would be no necessity to appoint extra postmen but rather to expand the work of the postmen already employed. In fact, I often thought that the position of these auxiliary postmen is not a very proper one. Ithink the time has come when they should be fully established and therefore when they would reach the retiring age the position would be pensionable. It is hardly fair to postmen that after long, faithful and efficient service, when they reach 70 years of age, they will have to retire and apply for the old age pension.

While I am speaking about the auxiliary postmen, I would like to refer also to what Deputy Norton said about these appointments. In the past year I had reason to complain here to the Minister about an appointment made at Knocknagoshel, in North Kerry. Any fair-minded person would think that whoever was responsible for that appointment acted very wrongfully. You had there a man with the necessary qualifications; he was recommended by the labour exchange in the first place; he had done temporary duty for six months; he was a married man with four or five young children; he had military service and all the necessary qualifications. Yet a man who failed to have these qualifications was appointed. If, in the first place, a person was appointed temporarily, to act during holiday periods or illness of postmen, and if such a person has done his work during that period efficiently, there is no reason why there should be a second survey and a second application required. The Minister's reply on that occasion was most unsatisfactory. He made the statement as he was leaving the House in a temper. He said the statement made on behalf of the postmen who was rejected was disgusting. I said that the appointment made was disgusting.

There are various remote areas, pockets in mountainous areas, for instance, where it would be well, by degrees, to erect telephone kiosks. These areas are far removed from towns and villages; they are remote from the residences of doctors and clergymen. If a person is sick or there is any urgent call, someone must ride along country roads, perhaps in the middle of the night, to obtain medical aid or an ambulance. If such kiosk provision were made, it may be expensive at first, but, after all, when we erect kiosks in towns and villages,we should endeavour by degrees to erect them also in remote country districts. Then, instead of having to go long distances in all kinds of weather and on all kinds of roads on urgent calls, a person could go to a central telephone kiosk in an area and contact the person whose services were urgently required.

I do not see any reference to Radio Eireann.

That is a separate Vote.

Very well. I have nothing to say against it, but would give it a word of praise for the news service. The Minister's statement on the work of the Post Office will be considered by Deputies on all sides as satisfactory. He also referred to salaries, wages and allowances, and it would be no harm, although it may not be in order now, for me to say that it is about time that the findings of the arbitration board on Civil Service salaries were implemented. That would bring about an increase of salary, so well deserved by postmen of all grades, and also by sub-postmasters and postmasters who are really very badly treated.

There are complaints at various times about the delivery of telegrams in rural areas. In fact, one is always very loath to send a telegram at all to anyone in a remote district, as the cost of delivery is high, and very often if the telegram sent is not of any great urgency payment is refused.

It is very costly delivery, is it not?

Mr. A. Byrne

I heard the Minister making his statement in a very calm atmosphere and then when he came to the point about increased charges he glossed over it. I was a little alarmed, as this is a new way of increasing the cost of living on business people. The Minister is going to increase the charges for telephones, stamps and telegrams. Will there beanything left for anyone to increase in another month or so? The cost of stamps in many business concerns is a very important item, especially to those who do a large circulation, seeking orders for their business. I am wondering, in view of these increased charges on businessmen, whether the Minister for Finance is going to make a recommendation that the arbitrator's award be put in operation without delay. Is that what the charges are for, or does it mean that the arbitrator's award will not come into effect and yet the increased charges will still be made?

The Minister is not responsible for the arbitration award.

Mr. A. Byrne

We all got—including yourself—circulars from the staff complaining of the inadequacy of the pay and allowances, the bad conditions and the failure to give effect to the award.

It cannot be raised on every Vote and it is not in order on this Vote.

Mr. A. Byrne

I hold that, in passing, on every Estimate where there is money included for wages and we consider them inadequate, we can talk about the promise to make better payments in order to meet the increased cost of living, without using the words "arbitrator's award".

That is a matter for the Minister for Finance and not for the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. A. Byrne

Well, he could make a recommendation to pay the staff better than at present, as it is the Cinderella of the whole Civil Service. There are workers in the Post Office, married men with large families, and after years of service they have only £5 or £5 10s. per week. Anyone will agree that that is not a reasonable wage for a Post Office worker in the Civil Service of this State. I never knew an Estimate for the Post Office to go through without at least a dozen Deputies drawing attention to the conditions of the Post Office workers. Deputy Norton has made very manyeloquent appeals for improved conditions for them and I want to support his appeal.

Only quite recently, telephone charges were increased. In the case of the heavy increase in the rate of duty on whiskey in the Budget of the Minister for Finance last year, the Minister did not think he was going to kill the goose that laid the golden eggs, but he lost a considerable sum of money because of that increase and we believe that he will have to reduce it this year in order to give the distillers an opportunity of getting rid of their stocks. Possibly that is what will happen in relation to the telephone service—these new increases may prevent us from using the telephone in the course of our business. Those of us who are feeling the effects of last year's Budget in the increased cost of living will have to cut down expenses somewhere and what we will try to do is to reduce our telephone bills and the Minister is going to encourage us to do so, if he imposes any new increases.

When speaking of wages in the Post Office, one must not forget the pensions payable to retired postal officials. These are not a credit to the Minister or the State and I hope he will see to it that these pensioned officials are taken out of the position they are in, a position in which they are known as the Cinderellas of the Civil Service.

The Minister is not responsible for the amount of pensions paid to employees.

Mr. A. Byrne

I am merely mentioning points given to me by postal workers and by those who represent them. They complain also about slow promotion and say that, when a man goes into the Post Office, he has little or no chance of promotion for very many years. It is up to the Minister to take some personal interest in this matter of giving better treatment to the postal service.

In my area, there is the parcel post office in Amiens Street. I understand that the work is very well done there, but the conditions in which the officials have to work are appalling. They have to work in a very old shabby woodenhut attached to the main office and I wonder how the town planning officials of the Dublin Corporation allow it to stand and why they do not call for its removal as being an eyesore. The Minister ought to take some steps to extend the parcels office and to make conditions for the workers a little better than they are. I want to see a good building there as well as improved conditions for the workers.

My only direct association with the Post Office was on the occasion of a rushed election and I should like to compliment the officials—in some cases, temporary staff—on the splendid way in which they handled an enormous number of letters and election literature. I have nothing but praise for the way the work was done there on that occasion. I handed in letters tied in the usual bundles and they were delivered in the city in less than 12 hours, and from that point of view there was efficiency and courtesy to me and all the others who were involved. One very rarely gets an opportunity of paying a compliment to the work done by these officials. I put it to the Minister that the postal service as a whole is worthy of the special personal attention of the Minister in charge, with a view to improving conditions generally for the workers and those who use the Post Office.

I should like to pay a tribute to the person responsible for the improvements in the G.P.O. in Dublin, both inside and outside. The building is now a great credit to the Government and they are to be congratulated on the improvements recently brought about there. There are two buildings which are a credit to the city, the G.P.O. and the airport. Every year on the Post Office Estimate, we have to draw attention to the conditions of the workers as being the lowest paid set of workers employed by a Government and I ask the Minister to see to it that the improvement for which Deputy. Norton has appealed will be brought about, and very soon.

The Minister is to be congratulated on the very fine statement he has given in connection with his Department. It was well documentedand gave details of, I should imagine, every branch of the Department and those of us who heard it can say, as a result, that we are nearly as conversant as he is with all these different sections. I have no general criticism to make of the Minister's Department. I have always regarded the officers of that Department, from the top rank down to the humblest auxiliary postman, as being very efficient indeed. The only bad aspect of his speech was his announcement that we are to have increased charges for stamps, telegrams and telephones, and I rather think, especially in respect of the proposed increase in telephone fees, that, as Deputy Byrne has said, the Minister may be killing the goose that lays the golden egg. We had in recent years—I think, in 1946—an increase of 5 per cent. on the total telephone bill, an increase which last year shot up to 25 per cent. Last year the increase of 25 per cent. was regarded by telephone users as very abnormal indeed. Telephone users have been very careful in the last 12 months about the number of calls they would make. Many business firms and, in particular, many private individuals who use the telephone purely for social reasons, have cut down telephone calls and have thought twice before making a call. If there is a substantial increase in telephone fees in the near future the Minister will find in respect of a big proportion of telephone users that the revenue will go below what it is at present. If the Minister persists and if a majority of the House decide that telephone fees should be increased, I would humbly suggest that the increase should not be expressed as a percentage of the total bill but in terms of the different charges for local calls, trunk calls and telegrams.

There are only a few matters about which I want to speak. They are local matters. I have not any particular remarks to make on the general aspects of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

The local authority of Wexford town have been asking for a long time for the erection of extra telephone kiosks in the town. The population is about12,000, and there are three telephone kiosks. Up to recently there were two. A third was erected lately. It was erected in a part of the town where there are very few houses. The local authority pressed for the erection of telephone kiosks in the new housing areas where there are hundreds of houses, the tenants of which cannot afford to install telephones, and who require telephone facilities to call a doctor or to make emergency calls. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs have refused, on economic grounds, to erect telephone kiosks in these particular areas. I do not know the basis of their argument in view of the fact that there has not been a trial, and there could not have been a trial. I do not know how the Minister comes to that decision.

I do not expect the Minister to refer in his reply to local matters of this kind, but I would be obliged if the officials of the Department would take note that the last telephone kiosk that was erected in Wexford town is situated near the railway station, near shops and offices that have telephones, where, if an emergency call had to be made, the person wishing to make the call could go to the railway station or to any of the shops or business houses. The situation is entirely different in the new housing areas. There are hundreds of houses on the outskirts of the town where there are no telephone facilities provided by the Department or private subscribers.

I had occasion to complain last year about the abnormal work that has been foisted on the officials in post offices throughout the country. I submit that the Post Office should be mainly concerned with the sale of stamps and postal orders and arranging for the dispatch of telegrams and for telephone calls—matters that have always been regarded as proper to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. It is unfair to the Minister and the Department and it is especially unfair to the officials that they should be engaged on work that should be the work of the Department of Social Welfare, to such an extent that the ordinary business of the Post Office is hindered on many days of the month by thepayment of children's allowances and other payments from the Department of Social Welfare. Following the recent change in the payment of children's allowances, it is impossible in many post offices to buy a stamp between 9 a.m. and 6 or 7 p.m. There are hundreds of people congregated there on the first Tuesday of the month to collect children's allowances, and the officials are at their wits' end trying to cope with the various matters they have to contend with under this system whereby they are doing a substantial amount of work that ordinarily should be a matter for the Department of Social Welfare.

I would suggest that the Minister should impress upon his colleagues in the Cabinet the necessity for the establishment of an office, which could be adjacent to the post office, which would deal only with payment of old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions, children's allowances and, possibly, dog licences and radio licences. That should apply particularly in the case of larger towns.

I have a terrific amount of sympathy with the officials of the post office who have to jump from children's allowances to deal with stamps and telegrams, postal orders, widows' pensions, old age pensions, and then have to dive to the account books in connection with radio licences and dog licences. I submit that they are not getting a fair crack of the whip. If there were one particular man in the post office assigned to the sale of stamps, another assigned to the payment of children's allowances, another to the payment of old age pensions and another who would be solely in charge of the dispatch of telegrams, that would not be too bad. At the moment, when Mr. X. comes in wanting a number of stamps, he has to be served and an entry has to be made in respect of the sale of the stamps. Mr. Y. comes in for a postal order; that entails another type of work and another book. Mrs. Z. comes in for a widow's pension which entails another type of work and another entry.

I imagine there must be a number of mistakes made in the work ordinarily done in the Post Office, especially inthe larger towns. I do not say that this objection is as great in the smaller places, in villages, where there would not be so many applicants or customers. I would ask the Minister to urge on his colleagues in the Cabinet the necessity for establishing subsidiary offices in the big towns that would deal with these matters that in the ordinary sense are matters for the Department of Social Welfare.

The Minister adverted to the possibility of decorating or toning up the outward appearances of the post offices. That is laudable in itself. I agree with the Minister if he infers that the appearance of the post offices leaves much to be desired. If money is to be expended it ought to be expended in many cases on the layout. In the case of the few offices that I know, in my constituency, especially the post office in Wexford town, money could be spent on interior improvement, on lay-out, the position of counters and the provision of more space. In certain post offices it would be better to spend the money on renovation or reconstruction or interior improvement.

There is another matter that I mentioned last year that I would like to mention again. It may not be peculiar to Wexford town alone, but it is something that the Minister or his officials ought to attend to, that there are only two dispatches of post from Wexford town daily.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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