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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 Jul 1953

Vol. 140 No. 5

Finance Bill, 1953—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 4.

Mr. O'Higgins

I was saying, before we adjourned, that the effect of this tax on our agricultural industry could not and should not be ignored. Individual Deputies have mentioned the percentage reduction in their own constituencies with regard to contracts for the growing of malting barley. I am told that, generally speaking, in the past year there has been a reduction all round in the growing of malting barley and the placing of contracts for it, of 35 per cent. That is a very serious consideration to the tillage farmers of the Midlands, Kildare, Carlow - Kilkenny and, other parts of the country—and, of course, as Deputy Collins reminds me, there always has been traditionally a considerable amount of malting barley grown in the County Cork. I mention this matter because it is clear that the tax to which we take objection has had its effect not merely on the production of whiskey and on the employment that the industry formerly gave but in addition on the agricultural industry.

There is also the fact—it may be peculiar to the Midlands but it is so, nevertheless—that the distillation of whiskey has traditionally made available an important market for hand-won turf. Here in this House from time to time we are accustomed to hear Deputies making appeals for the hand-won turf producer. The production of hand-won turf has for many years been a production occasioned and delimited by the market available for it. In two distilleries in the Midlands there always has been a market for turf. That market is now jeopardised to a very serious degree.

These particular considerations that I have mentioned certainly suggest that this tax is not one that should be supported by this House when we realise that what we are in effect killing is one of the oldest Irish native industries, an industry that 40 or 50 years ago was endangered by competition from abroad but an industry that met that competition and overcame it. It is now being threatened by the action of an Irish Government and an Irish Minister.

I do not know whether the answers which the Minister has given to criticism of this tax should be confined merely to his intervention in the debate to-day, because in fact in the last six months or so a variety of cases has been advanced on behalf of the Government as to why this particular tax should be continued and as to the manner in which it should be defended. I would like briefly to refer to one or two of the points that have been made by the Minister on different occasions. The facts with regard to the tax and its revenue have been referred to already. It is clear that the Minister expected in April, 1952, from the spirit duty as it fell to be collected from home distilled and also from imported spirits, to get an increased revenue of slightly more than £1,000,000. In fact, the revenue in the last financial year fell by close on £500,000. That particular reduction in revenue must be regarded as one of the most signal failures of any kind of taxation. As has been said by other Deputies, the only reason the Minister for Finance can advance for any taxation—if he is not to be in the rôle of a social reformer—is to collect revenue. The result of this taxation has been to reduce the revenue which he could collect as Minister for Finance.

In dealing with that marked reduction in revenue, the Minister on other occasions has advanced two or three reasons why that reduction took place. First of all, he suggested that the imposition of the tax was at an unhappy time, because there was a decline in the consumption of spirits. In fact—and it is well to have the figures on record—it appears from the Revenue Commissioners' report, Table21, that in 1951 there were 993,314 proof gallons of whiskey consumed. In 1952 that had slightly declined, by a little over 13,000 gallons. That decline is so trivial as really to make very little difference to the quantity of whiskey consumed and to the position of the industry itself. In the last financial year, while the revenue fell by £1,500,000 from expectation, the drop in consumption fell by 267,631 proof gallons or well over 300,000 bulk gallons of whiskey. That is a drop, if my mathematics are correct, of over 27 per cent. in consumption. That particular decrease in consumption could not be explained, even by the most enthusiastic defender of this tax, by suggesting that the tax was imposed at a time when consumption of whiskey was in any event declining. A drop of over 27 per cent. is such a colossal decrease in the operation of the industry as to bring very serious consequences.

The Minister also said some time ago that another consideration why he did not attain his expected revenue and why revenue had dropped was that there was advance buying by those in the licensed trade, prior to the Budget of 1952.

I do not know whether that particular contention is still pursued by the Minister. He did not put it forward to-day. But the fact is that all those engaged in the licensed trade prior to April, 1952, were on a strict monthly quota in relation to their purchases of whiskey and no publican, no matter what his standing in the trade might be, could purchase from any distillery, and accordingly take out of bond, any quantity of whiskey in excess of his monthly quota. In fact, every Deputy knows that there was no serious advance buying of whiskey prior to the Budget of 1952. There might have been the usual movement out of bond when a Budget is about to be brought in, but it certainly could not have been to any serious extent. In addition, Deputies will recollect that the Revenue Commissioners, at the instance of the Minister, took very definite steps to prevent any large scale withdrawal of whiskey from bond, because before the Budget of April, 1952, there was a sealing of bondand a prohibition on the withdrawal of any spirits from bond. Accordingly, that particular case does not seem to be worthy of consideration.

In addition, of course, as Deputies will appreciate, in April 1952, while conditions were I suppose better in the country than they are now, the effect of the restriction of credit was very keenly felt by those in the licensed trade. That restriction of credit had commenced to operate and be felt the previous autumn and certainly, prior to the Budget of 1952, no person in the licensed trade had the necessary capital to engage in lavish capital expenditure on the purchase of spirits.

Those are one or two of the reasons advanced by the Minister to explain away the very serious fall in revenue. Deputies will realise, however, as people outside do, that the Government must be concerned about the condition to which they have reduced this industry. Recently, the Minister for Industry and Commerce suggested to the licensed trade that we should have an Irish "nip" which would be sold over the counter at 1/2. I do not know whether "nips" appeal to members of the Government, but that certainly suggests that at least one Minister is now beginning to realise that parlous condition in which the whiskey industry and the licensed trade now find themselves.

Other suggestions were made by the Minister on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill to deal with the present condition of the industry. He asked: "Why do not those engaged in the production of whiskey here develop an export market?" The example was held up of what the Scottish distillers have done. My colleague, Deputy Sweetman, has referred to that and it is not necessary for me to go over the same ground. I should like merely to say that the Irish distillers have a very legitimate grievance against the Government owing to the loss of an export market. During the war years, when the production of American whiskey began to wane and when whiskey was a very scarce commodity in the dollar area, case after case was made by the ‘Distillers' Association to the then Government,which was also a Fianna Fáil Government, for some freeing of the restrictions then in operation in this country. Despite all the representations made, the Government still continued to control in a very rigorous manner any movement of whiskey from this country. The export market was strictly controlled and only a mere trickle of whiskey was allowed to be exported.

Deputies will recollect that those restrictions occasioned much publicity some years ago when it was suggested that the stocks of a particular distillery in this country might be exported, I think, to Switzerland. Right through the war and until 1948, I think, at any rate some time ago, there was a very rigorous clamp down on the export of whiskey from this country. That was at a time when the world market was favourable to the development of an export trade in whiskey. It was at a time when the Scottish distillers, backed by the British Government, began to roam over the American market and build up an export trade that now even rivals that of Seagram's Canadian whiskey and other whiskeys of that kind. We lost that opportunity because the Government were not prepared to permit the free export of Irish potstill whiskey. Accordingly, I think the four or five distilleries now left in the country have a legitimate grievance if they are attacked in this House by the Minister or by any Deputy for not building up some years ago an export trade. They were not allowed to do it.

What is the position now? It is suggested that a way out of their present difficulties would be to export whiskey. It is very easy to make a suggestion of that kind without examination of what it entails. It certainly would be a very doubtful foundation for a flourishing export trade were Irish distillers to do it at a time when the home market is dwindling away and the very source of our export trade is endangered. Our own Irish distillers are facing a 27 per cent. decrease in turnover in business and they now have to search for world markets when conditions have turned against the export trade and when there is an abundant supply in England and in the hard currency areas of allother whiskeys. In addition, as Deputy Sweetman pointed out, there could be no comparison between Irish whiskey and Scottish whiskey. In Scotland there is a stock figure of blended whiskey of over 150,000,000 gallons. Here the stock figure is less than 10,000,000 gallons.

Can you tell us—in Scotland, is it private or Government?

Mr. O'Higgins

Private.

The Distillers' Company —the biggest combine in the world.

I found it very hard to get a glass of whiskey during the war and what I got was poison.

There was a prohibition on export.

Mr. O'Higgins

In any event in dealing with the trade in the export market, the British Government in selling Scotch whiskey to the American market even in the height of the war realised its importance as a dollar earner and went to infinite pains to sell Scotch blended whiskey in the American market. Here the position was quite the contrary. We were prevented from exporting whiskey and certainly everything was done to discourage any distiller to export. But the suggestion now is made that a solution to the difficulties of the industry is to search for export markets. We are doing it now when the Scotch Distillery Company sells over £32,000,000 worth of whiskey a year; when the entire export market has turned against us. In addition, the Scotch distillers produce a blend of whiskey which can be distilled and sold after a period of three years. The Irish potstill is in a most unfavourable position. It cannot, in fact, be exported or sold for a period of seven years unless it is exported from this country, as the Minister seems to suggest, and sold to Scotch distillers and blended and eventually sold in the American market as Scotch whiskey. If that is the suggestion now beingmade for the future of this industry it is not a suggestion that should ever be made in an Irish Parliament.

That was, of course, emphatically repudiated by the Distillers' Company.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister has accepted that repudiation. But I mention it because it might be suggested that newly - distilled Irish whiskey should be sold to Scottish interests for blending purposes. I do not think that is a suggestion that could be accepted.

Denied or not it was commonly thought to be so, many years before the war.

Mr. O'Higgins

We all know that the entire stock of D.W.D. was sold and left this country and was subsequently bottled and sold as a blend of Scotch.

Then the repudiation was not very correct.

Mr. O'Higgins

The repudiation was made by the secretary of the Scottish distillers and was accepted by the Minister before Deputy Cowan came into the House.

I think, in order that Deputy Cowan may have the record straight, I should say that considerable quantities of immature Irish whiskey are exported and possibly these may be blended abroad.

Mr. O'Higgins

Let us get this clear. The statement made by the Minister on the Second Reading was that Irish distillers were exporting Irish whiskey and selling it abroad as Scotch whiskey.

What I said was that I understood large quantities of Irish whiskey were exported and were sold as Scotch. I said that I would not be able to substantiate that and I accepted, therefore, the correction of the Scotch distillers but that does not at the same time in any way alter the fact that very large quantities of immature Irish whiskey are exported and may be blended abroad.

Mr. O'Higgins

Again to keep the record clear; what the Minister did say is, as reported in the Official Report, Volume 139, No. 2, column 318:—

"The case in Scotland—in Great Britain—is that that industry labours under substantially heavier taxes than the Irish industry, but that does not prevent the Scotch distillers from going out and securing markets and it does not prevent people from buying Irish whiskey and palming it off as Scotch whiskey."

That was the charge made by the Minister on the Second Reading. That particular suggestion was repudiated by the distillers here and also by the Scotch distillers.

What they did say was that it was illegal to do that. That was what they said, and they denied it was being done. And I said I was not in a position to substantiate what I had said on the Second Reading.

Mr. O'Higgins

May I remind the Minister that in this House about 4.30 he said that he accepted the repudiation and the statement given by the secretary of the Scotch distillers?

It is now 8 o'clock.

Deputy O'Higgins need not carry my words farther than they went.

Of course Deputy Cowan might change his Lobby. No, it is all right; you can say what you like. Deputy Cowan says he will not go against you on this point.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister is either accepting the denial or he is not.

I am accepting the statement made.

Mr. O'Higgins

That is a denial of what the Minister said on the Second Reading.

If the Deputy is not able to distinguish between the two things I am not in a position to correct his obtuseness.

Mr. O'Higgins

Can we say this is the position? The Minister thinks everything is all right because the Minister says immature whiskey is being exported from this country.

That is not right.

Mr. O'Higgins

Am I to understand —if I may start again—that the Minister does not regard the condition of this industry as being serious because in fact immature Irish whiskey is exported from this country and blended in Scotland and sold as blended Scotch whiskey?

The Deputy will not put a gloss on my words that they would not bear.

Mr. O'Higgins

I am suggesting that the Minister's words bear that interpretation.

Of course they are capable of misrepresentation.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister was "sweet reasonableness" here three hours ago, agreeing that he was wronging the Irish distillers and accepting what the secretary of the Scotch distillers said.

I am still reasonable.

Mr. O'Higgins

That particular statement made by the Minister on the Second Reading of the Bill——

——was not in accordance with the statement of the Scottish distillers.

Not in accordance with the facts.

Mr. O'Higgins

The Minister accepted the statement.

I said that I was not in a position to substantiate what I had said and, therefore, I accepted what they said.

Mr. O'Higgins

In this House, many Deputies can apparently blow hot and cold. I think, in any event, that the Minister is inclined to be complacentabout this matter because he thinks it is a good thing to have Irish whiskey in an immature condition exported from this country, blended in Scotland and sold as Scotch whiskey. I do not think that is a good thing. I think it is a very bad thing. It is an unfortunate habit that was started in this country some years ago where, in order to build up the huge export market that the Scotch whiskey was attaining, we were building up the production of Scottish whiskey by the export of immature Irish spirit. I think, as I say, that that is a very bad thing. I am afraid in the past—I am talking about the years of the war—that position was permitted by the then Government when they allowed Irish distillers to export only immature whiskey. Right through the war the only export, practically speaking, apart from D.W.D.——

You could not describe that surely as immature whiskey?

Mr. O'Higgins

I shall discuss the case of D.W.D. on any occasion with the Minister that he wishes. I think it was one of the greatest scandals that ever happened in this country. Apart from D.W.D. the only whiskey exported was immature spirit. It was exported to Scotland, used as a blend by Scottish distillers and sold later as Scotch whiskey. Apart from D.W.D., no mature Irish potstill whiskey could be exported because the Government would not permit it and now, some years later. when the home market is being killed by this taxation, when it is disappearing, it is suggested, in effect, by the Minister's speech on Second Reading that everything is all right because immature Irish whiskey will continue to be exported to Scotland and blended with the patent still Scotch whiskey.

I am afraid I have spoken at undue length, but I do suggest to the Minister that the condition of the industry at the moment does require immediate attention by the Government. This tax has failed. It has failed in its initial purpose of bringing in revenue. In fact, it is clear that it representedvery much the final straw. We have reached the stage where a bottle of Irish whiskey bears taxation to the extent of 22/- and this very parlous condition is brought about in the industry. When, in addition, that taxation gives a smaller yield of revenue, when consumption begins to fall, unemployment is caused in the industry and general hardship is felt, surely it is time for the Minister to reconsider the position.

We suggest in this amendment that the Minister should remove the tax imposed in April, 1952, completely and bring the tax back to the level that was brought about by the Supplementary Budget of 1947. Deputies will recollect that the last Government, which in this connection had the unstinted support of Deputy Cowan, took a very clear view with regard to the spirits tax and the tax on beer that had been imposed by the Supplementary Budget of 1947. The last Government decided that the spirits tax was a tax which the industry could just bear and that it would bring in an increase in revenue. They decided that the beer tax was a tax which could not be borne. Accordingly, the spirits tax imposed in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 was maintained while the beer tax was reduced. We are asking now that the Minister should revert to the position as it was before the 1952 Budget taxes were imposed. We think, if that is not done, that certainly in the very near future two of the smaller distilleries in this country are going to close up. It would be no good, if that happens, for the Minister to try to reduce the tax or to undo the harm. If two distilleries close up here, the result will be extremely serious.

I think that not only has this taxation worked out in a most unfair manner but it is contrary to the assurance given by the Minister before he became Minister. We recollect that it was the Minister, then Deputy MacEntee, who on May 16th, 1951, told the electorate in the last general election that "a number of persons in the licensed trade were spreading the rumour that if Fianna Fáil were returned to power, the taxes imposed on drink in the Supplementary Budget of 1947 would be reimposed. There is no truth in anysuch rumour." That speech obviously was intended to refer to the matter dealt with in the next amendment but certainly it gave an implied promise to the electorate that the Minister's Government would not impose taxes on spirits and beer which during the election might have been regarded as unfair. In fact, the tax as imposed, as I have endeavoured to show, has been a failure on all grounds. It is now in danger of killing a native Irish industry that never sought protection, never required a tariff, an industry that has grown up amongst our own people, an industry that has given to the English language the name whiskey. It is killing that industry at a time when we should be developing it, getting markets abroad, cutting down the cost of production and putting the industry in a position to compete with Scotch whiskey in the markets of the world.

It is important to bear in mind that this amendment is designed to raise revenue and not to provide any special advantage for any interest at the expense of the Exchequer. There does not seem to be any doubt in the minds of anybody who has given any thought to the subject that in regard to the taxation on spirits we have passed beyond the point of diminishing returns. If anybody wants an object lesson as to the consequences of doing that, he need only look at the experience of the 1947 Government with port wine. They raised the level of taxation on port wine well beyond the point of diminishing return with the result that that trade disappeared altogether and, with it, the revenue from that source. Since that time, that source of revenue has never revived.

Our proposition is that if you reduce the level of tax in respect of beer and spirits the revenue yield will increase. Over and above that, I think it is perfectly manifest that the depression in the distilling trade and licensed trade, wholesale and retail, must be having serious repercussions on the yield of corporation profits tax and income-tax. I suggest that, if the normal profits were restored to these trades, there would be a further handsomeaccretion to the revenue of the Exchequer through the medium of corporation profits tax and income-tax.

I want to refer the House for a moment to what the Minister for Finance said on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill for it gives a clue as to his attitude to this whole problem. At column 317 of the Official Report of the 28th May, 1953—Volume 139, No. 2—the Minister for Finance is reported as follows:—

"...Perhaps the fact that the home market has so substantially declined will act as a spur to induce them to try to develop an export trade. It may take a long time to do that, but after all, it is their business primarily. If they do not do it, their profits will decline and their industry will decline: if they do it, on the other hand, their profits will increase and their businesses will prosper accordingly...."

That is the approach of a very smallminded man because of course, the fact is that it is wholly mistaken to believe that this is a matter of "their business primarily"—meaning thereby, the distillers and the brewers, primarily. Most distillers and brewers in this country are reasonably comfortable people. What I am thinking of is the men who are employed by the brewers and the distillers. What I am thinking of is the men who own small public houses all over the country. I have a great many friends amongst them—and I have no apology to make therefore. They are respectable men who reared their families by their own industry and never sought relief or sustenance from anyone. They are now being crushed out of existence. I am thinking also of the assistants who work behind their counters. I am thinking of the farmers of this country who have had to jettison thousands of acres which were normally appropriated to the growing of malting barley which was a highly profitable crop for the men who grew it and for the nation which produced it. That crop has been wiped off the land.

In introducing his Estimate, the Minister for Agriculture told us that.this year, thousands of acres of malting barley have been abandoned and that their place has been taken by wheat on which, from the national point of view of economy, there has to be paid £1 a barrel subsidy in order to get it grown.

The Minister for Finance, having delivered himself of that unworthy aphorism which I have just quoted, went on to say this, as reported at columns 319 and 320. Before I quote it, I should like you all to remember at this stage that the Minister for Finance of the Republic of Ireland is talking about two of the oldest industries in Ireland—two of the only industries in Ireland all of whose raw materials are produced from the land of Ireland. Their name is not Lichtovitch nor Steinwich. They do not come from Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Hungary or from the other end of the earth. If they did, we would all be called upon to bow down before them and to acknowledge them as princes of commerce but because they happen to come from Bow Street or James's Street or Midleton or Tullamore, this is what the Irish Minister for Finance has to say about them:—

"If we want to develop an export industry, the best way would seem to be to make the home market more difficult, so that if they want to maintain their profits and position in this country they will be compelled to go out and look for export markets."

If the Minister said that to Mr. Lichtovitch he would go back home to Czechoslovakia and we would all be out on our knees to say: "Come back to Erin and put a greyhound and a round tower on your product and we will call you ‘O'Looney' and forget all about the Lichtovitch". But, because they happened to be born in Tullamore, Dublin, and so forth, the attitude is to put bit and bridle on them and, if that is not enough, to try a whip. The attitude is: if they do not get to work and work hard, close them down. Remember, it is "if they want to maintain their profits and position in this country". It is not "in their country", it is "in this country". IfMr. Lichtovitch had changed his name to "O'Looney" he would be going around calling on us all to join with him in building up the economy of "our country"—and I would be expected to tip my hat and say: "Yes, Mr. O'Looney". But if I said: "Mr. Lichtovitch, your country is Czechoslovakia, Hungary or Turkey" I should be told that I was an enemy of Irish industry and I would be asked if I did not see the harp, greyhound and round tower on everything he produced. I should be told that I should consider it a privilege to pay a tariff of 50 per cent. in order to ensure that he would live in Donnybrook and drive home every night in a Chrysler car while I would get into my Ford 10.

We are talking here about people who have never earned or sought to earn a penny except on the investment of their wealth in this country and who have always produced a product of which this country has reason to be proud on the grounds of quality. I do not think we are called upon to make any apology for saying that no responsible Government in any civilised country would set out to smash an industry of that kind on the ground that, in the development of their trade, they were not doing what the Minister for Finance at the moment thought they ought to do and which they are prepared to make the case is being done to the limit of possibility.

If you ask any of the leading distillers in this country, I think they will tell you that every conceivable effort is being made to break into foreign markets. They did not complain when our Government, during the war period, forbade them to export spirits. They said then that they were prepared to accept that restriction if the Government thought the public interest required it. However, they think it hard that now, having been prohibited by their own Government from entering the American market during the war, where scarcity then existed, they should be asked to break into that market blithely now. The Scotch distillers were forbidden to sell Scotch whiskey in Great Britain and were ordered to sell it on consignment to the United States of America and to getinto the United States of America market at a time when the Bourbon and rye whiskey trade of America were themselves restricted in production by the United State Government because they were required to produce other requirements—and Scotch whiskey poured into that vacuum and established itself with its campaigns of advertising for "Johnny Walker", "Black and White", and so forth.

At the end of the war, when the Kentucky distilleries, when the rye distilleries in the United States of America are going full blast and are free to sell distilled whiskey in America within 12 months of distillation and, with the Scotch whiskey distillers, one of the greatest and most powerful combines in the world, firmly established in the United States of America, we ask our distillers to try to break into that market. We command them to do it and tell them: "If you do not, we will kill your domestic trade in order to punish you for not doing so." I begin to wonder are we in Grangegorman, particularly when any one of these distillers is prepared to put before the Minister for Finance proof that they have gone to New York and have taken counsel with the best marketing advisers in New York and have marked out limited regions for publicity where their stocks would permit them to maintain supply, if they succeeded in conquering the market.

Any authority who knows anything about foreign marketing will tell you that nothing is more fatal than to go into a market as big as the 48 States of the United States, spend a couple of million pounds sterling creating a great demand over the whole 48 States and discover, when that demand hits you, that by no stretch of the imagination could you conceivably fill it. You can lose in three weeks an investment of ten years and, therefore, as these distillers have been wisely advised, they have divided the country into small areas—taking an area in New England, a restricted area in California and another area around Baltimore—concentrated their advertising there and prepared stocks to meet any demand however gratifying that maymaterialise, so that whatever money they spend on advertising, when it fructifies, will be further exploited by adequate delivery of the commodity advertised.

The distillers, in pursuing that course, are perfectly right, and it would be reckless madness for them to try to spread a national campaign of advertising all over the States, because if they did, Irish whiskey would be dead and damned for ever by the consequent failure of our domestic distilling resources to deliver a mature whiskey which might be demanded by so vast a market as the whole United States if a very large sum of money were spent on advertising over the whole area simultaneously.

Could the Deputy say what happened to Locke's American trade?

I do not follow the Deputy.

I understand that Locke's have been barred from the American market on some grounds.

I do not know about that. We barred them during the war.

No, the Americans barred them since the war.

I know nothing of that, but I do know that people talk glibly of breaking into the American market and Americans talk glibly about our earning more dollars. Did anyone ever try to break into the American market? Did anyone ever try to earn more dollars? I say here deliberately that the tariffed industries which dominate the Federal Government of the United States of America are the greatest power in the world to prevent anyone earning dollars with anything by way of trade in the United States of America, but, that notwithstanding, I say that the United States Government, in the matter of tariffs, is as blind and as obscurantist as the Government of the Republic of Ireland, and I could not say more than that.

You will soon be tied up with me.

They are determined that nothing will come in that can possibly be kept out by anybody and, at the same time, they hold the whole world up to ridicule because they do not earn more dollars.

Surely that does not arise on this amendment?

I must not have made myself clear. At columns 319 and 320 we find:—

"Mr. MacEntee: If we want to develop an export industry, the best way would seem to be to make the home market more difficult, so that if they want to maintain their profits and position in this country they will be compelled to go out and look for export markets."

If what I have been saying does not arise out of that, I do not know what does.

I do not see how we can discuss the tariff policy of the United States on this amendment.

Because that man, who is described in this book as Mr. MacEntee and who, as a result of the Red Nuncio's vote, is Minister for Finance in this country says he is going to kick the distillers of this country out of the country to get trade in foreign countries. I am trying to establish to the satisfaction of the House that the distillers are doing all that is humanly possible to get trade abroad and that there is no need to destroy their domestic market in order to make them try harder to do that which the United States Government is doing its damnedest to prevent them doing; but, despite all that, I think the Irish distillers are exerting themselves and spending heroically on what they conceive to be a prudent campaign to procure markets in the United States over all opposition which they will be able adequately to supply if their advertising campaign should be a success.

These distilleries and breweries are old established Irish industries, trading in a free and open market in competition with all comers, seeking protectionfrom nobody, employing our own people directly and indirectly, contributing substantially to the revenue and providing a medium which everyone who has any understanding of public finance will agree is one of the most powerful anti-inflationary instruments that can be used at a time when there is excess purchasing power in the hands of the public. There is no more expedient device for correcting an inflationary trend, arising from excess spending power in the hands of the people, particularly in our conditions where such a malady manifests itself in growing imports of consumer goods, than to make accessible to the consuming public a commodity carrying a high rate of excise duty but not a rate so high as will deter them from consuming it.

I want to know why we approach these interests in the spirit of the speech of the Minister to which I have referred, as being undeserving of any consideration. Why should we say to them, as the Minister said at column 318: "I do not see why we should single out the potstillers for special consideration?" Why should the man who said that be the same man who singled out the dance-hall proprietors for special consideration? The man who said that, on the Budget of 1953, is the man who, in the Budget of 1952, when he put these taxes on, presented the dance-hall proprietors with £100,000 which dance-hall proprietors, being so greatly gratified thereby, wrote to every dance-hall proprietors in Ireland and said: "You had better put up the dough to get MacEntee made Minister for Finance, for he has promised to grease our palm to the tune of £100,000". He did that coram populo, and why, if they are to be picked out for special consideration——

I must intervene. Have you, Sir, taken note of the words used by Deputy Dillon?

Does the Minister wish me to repeat them?

No. I am merely drawing the attention of the Chair to them. If I called the Deputy a liar, I would be put out of this House.

I am saying quite deliberately that the Minister for Finance in 1951 relieved the dance-hall proprietors of this country of over £100,000. Is that not so? Is it or is it not true that the secretary of the dance-hall proprietors sent out a circular saying that Mr. MacEntee had undertaken to give them this relief?

No, he did not undertake to do that.

That matter does not arise on this business in the first place. This is in reference to spirits. We cannot discuss everything.

This is exuberance of spirits.

I was referring to the Minister for Finance's statement at column 318 of Volume 139:—

"I do not see why we should single out the potstillers for special consideration."

We cannot now go back on everybody that got a relief of taxation. The Deputy cannot go back on the dance-hall proprietors.

That was the only category that got any relief.

Whether that is so or not, I do not know. We cannot go back now on the dance-hall proprietors.

I say that the lady secretary sent out a letter exhorting the dance-hall proprietors to subscribe to the Fianna Fáil funds because Fianna Fáil had promised to give them substantial relief.

I have told the Deputy that is not relevant to this.

Mr. A. Byrne

£140,000!

Much more than £2,500.

That is not any more relevant to this discussion than the dance-hall proprietors.

I think I made the point that in asking for this revision of taxationI am not appealing for any special consideration for any special interest in this country. I am asking that employment should be restored to shop assistants. I am asking that publicans should be enabled to earn their living again. I am asking that the retail and wholesale trade should be revived and that the distilleries which have threatened to close down should be restored to their legitimate business.

I would like the House to bear this interesting fact in mind because those who do not understand the licensed trade may not appreciate the fact: Gresham's law works in inverse ratio in the whiskey market. Bad money drives out good: good whiskey drives out less well-known brands. One of the first consequences of seriously contracting the domestic market for spirits is that the customer going into the licensed house asks instinctively, and insists on getting, the well-advertised brand of the larger distilling firms because he cannot remember the name of the smaller distillers, whose product may be intrinsically just as good but which in the public mind has not the place reserved for those with a name with which they are familiar. Therefore, the impact of a contracting trade in whiskey precipitated by excess taxation falls in entirely undue proportion on the small distiller who by the nature of his capital and physical structure is unfortunately more dependent on the domestic market than the larger firms will naturally be.

I am warning this House there are more than two distilleries which, if required to carry on under the present taxation pattern, will close their doors, and if they close they will close for ever. Perrse's of Galway made as fine a whiskey as was ever manufactured in this country; they closed in 1913 and they never reopened. Cassidy's of Monasterevan closed their doors after the 1914-1918 war; they made as good a whiskey as was ever made, but they never opened their doors again. If two or three more of the small distillers close their doors in rural Ireland, they are gone and gone forever. Where you have a distilleryin a small town, you kill your small town if you close that distillery down. You may completely disrupt the whole social life of that town to the point of rendering it in due time a virtual desert. A town that grows up around an industry like that cannot survive the sudden disappearance of its main source of employment, and the whole town goes down. I think that is something this House should think long and well about before they run the very serious and indefensible risk of seeing that very thing come to pass.

The Minister also chose to sneer on the Second Stage of this Bill because he thought that by sneering he could rouse Deputy Hickey. He said that the fact was that those who criticise this duty were, in effect, trying to expand the consumption of whiskey. That was calculated to put every Deputy on his guard lest he enrage the teetotallers. Now I speak here as a collateral descendant of one of the most energetic defenders of total abstinence in this country and I am saying quite deliberately that my purpose is to increase the consumption of whiskey above its present level. I warn the House of certain evils that will arise if we attempt by fiscal methods artificially to reduce it.

Some Deputies have shared with me the experience of seeing the consequences of poteen distilling in the West of Ireland. No more disastrous catastrophe can fall upon a parish than that some individual, or individuals, should be persuaded into setting up an illicit still. The distilling of poteen in rural Ireland can be a major catastrophe in the area in which it occurs. One of the surest ways of precipitating the distillation of poteen is to make the price of whiskey utterly inaccessible to the average man. I would ask the House to remember that the people who have to give up drinking whiskey are in the great majority of cases not the wealthy, for the wealthy will buy the luxuries they want so long as they have the money wherewith to buy them. The people who have to give up whiskey in many, many cases are the aged poor. I know them and I do not doubt there is not a Deputy herewho does not know old people who are in the habit of taking a half one at night before they go to bed and who get their night's sleep as a result thereof and feel the want of it when they are no longer able to afford it. But they do not lie down and die because they cannot get it. They endure a great deal of unnecessary discomfort because they cannot afford it and I think that is something we ought to bear in mind in dealing with a matter of this kind. That kind of silent suffering, which, to us who are not yet borne down by weight of years, may appear trivial, can bulk very large in the life of an old person to whom few luxuries remain accessible and to whom ordinary healthy life is no longer available. The difference between moderate comfort and permanent discomfort may often be measured by no more than a half one of whiskey. It is no light thing to take that away and philosophically to observe that you cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs. That is the most comforting economic aphorism always provided that you are not the egg.

I spoke of the difficulties of Irish distillers in breaking into the foreign market. I want to say at this stage that if our Government is instrumental in bringing pressure to bear on the potstill distillers of this country to produce a synthetic product against their better judgment for a foreign market I think they act most recklessly and imprudently. Irish whiskey is potstill whiskey. Scotch whiskey is blended whiskey—a blend of potstill and patent still whiskey. If anyone in Ireland is nursing the illusion that he can break into the American market with Loch Lomond Dew manufactured in Ballydehob he is just crazy. It may be that some enterprising souls did capture the Belfast market with Coronation rock manufactured in the Republic of Ireland but they called it what it was, but if anyone thinks you can break into a foreign market with an article the very name of which is a misdescription he is just daft. You cannot break into a foreign market with a Scotch whiskey distilled in Ireland any more than you could break into it with Irish whiskey distilled inGlasgow. It is not through any inherent superiority in Scotch whiskey that Scotch whiskey has got such a footing in the United States of America. It is due to the fact that Sir Stafford Cripps—God rest his soul —forbade the British people in substance to drink whiskey during and after the war and directed it to be sold abroad in order to earn dollars. That is what gave Scotch whiskey its standing in the United States of America, plus the fact that it was presented to the United States of America by one of half a dozen of the greatest and wealthiest combines that this world has ever seen who were in a position to spend on advertising more money than the entire Irish distilling industry has.

If Irish whiskey is to break into a foreign market it will have to do so on its merits. It will never do so as an ersatz product masquerading as something which, in fact, it is not. I sincerely hope that the Government in so far as they may have pressed that course on the Irish distilling industry will consider again the nature of what they are doing. That is all I have to say, Sir. I am making the case for an old Irish industry operated by Irish people in their own country, employing Irishmen and using exclusively raw materials derived from the land of Ireland. I am making the case of thousands of small publicans up and down the country who are rearing decent families through their own honest labour. I am making the case for thousands of shop assistants who, to my own knowledge, are unemployed to-day where they could command good wages two years ago. Lastly, I am making the case for the Exchequer in the profound conviction that in respect of these two commodities, whiskey and beer, you have long passed the point of diminishing return.

If we will at this stage mend our hand and bring the level of taxation back to the point of the optimum of return, undoubtedly the distilling industry and the licensed trade will still consider that level of taxation too high. But at this stage I would be prepared to settle with the Ministerfor Finance if he agreed to bring the level of these duties back to the point which would be certified to him and through him to this House by the Revenue Commissioners as the point of optimum return from the Exchequer point of view.

I think we should deliberately set our minds to the task of bringing the level of taxation in respect of these two commodities in due course as Exchequer exigencies will allow, to the point of optimum production from the distillers' and brewers' point of view, not only for domestic consumption but for the foreign market which they will be in a position to exploit having employed a fair proportion of their current profits on advertising and other organisational work essential as a preliminary profitably to enter a foreign market of that kind. If we are not prepared to take some steps in that direction now, ultimately we will have to do it, but meantime, certain small distillers are going to close and will never open again and a great many anonymous and unknown tradesmen will have to get out of business and a great many men and women who want to earn their bread in their own country will be driven to get jobs in the public-houses of Bootle and Manchester because there is no employment for them here. Can that case be answered? If it cannot, is it not the Minister's duty to tell us what he proposes to do about it?

I only want to say a few words in connection with this matter. Listening to Deputy Dillon the problem seems more difficult than I really thought it was. Deputy Dillon concluded his speech by stating that certain small distillers were likely to be driven out of existence. I think he attributed that to the fact that there is increased taxation. Earlier in his speech he told us that Perrse's of Galway who made an excellent whiskey went out of existence in 1913 when whiskey could be bought for about 2/6 a bottle.

Why did they go out of production in 1913 if the whiskey could be bought at 2/6 a bottle? Why did Cassidy's of Monasterevan go out of production shortly after the first world war? Idrank and enjoyed Cassidy's whiskey at 1/3 a glass. It was an excellent whiskey, but it went out of production. Why? It went out of production for the very reason that Deputy Dillon himself gave—that good whiskey drives out the less well-known brands. That is what Deputy Dillon said. If good whiskey drives out less well-known brands and, if it drove Perrse's whiskey out in 1913 and Cassidy's whiskey shortly after the first world war, undoubtedly certain small distillers are going to have a tremendous struggle for existence. Apparently, it is not the extra taxation that is going to cause them to go out of existence but the fact that they are being driven out by better-known brands.

In a contracting market?

The market did not contract in 1913—at least, that is my recollection. People's tastes change. When one went to a funeral at that time one was handed a mug of whiskey, and you were not considered a man unless you could drink the mug of whiskey. Times have changed. In every farmer's ass's cart going home on a Saturday you saw a jar of whiskey.

Or poteen?

No, but the very best whiskey. Many a time I went into town myself and brought home a jar of whiskey for a few shillings. In fact, in those days if a young lad, riding an ass, went into town for a few bottles of whiskey he was given a little taoscanto take himself. Times have changed completely and tastes have changed. I think it is a pity. I think we were a wonderful race when we drank plenty of good Irish whiskey. I am glad that Deputy Dillon agrees with me that it would be a good thing if we came back to that state of affairs. But it does not matter what the price of whiskey is, or what the tax on whiskey may be, we will never go back to the hard drinking times of 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Supposing that the tax of 6d. a glass was taken off whiskey, it is not going to increase the production of whiskey or the consumption ofwhiskey to a sufficient degree to enable the small distilleries, which are threatened with extinction, to continue.

I must say that there was one thing in regard to the distillers that I did not like. The extra tax was put on last year, and apparently, immediately after that was done, although their whiskey takes seven years to mature, and although there may be changes in taste in the next seven years, they immediately cancelled many of their contracts for malting barley. Why did they do that?

Do you not know? Because the seven years' stock became ten years overnight.

That is what they say.

Is it not manifest?

No, I do not accept that. I think they stepped in deliberately to reduce their own production of whiskey, and why they did that I do not know. I do not think it was in the national interest to do it.

What would the Deputy do if he suddenly found himself with a ten years' stock instead of a seven years' stock on hands?

They had no indication last year that the position was so, nor had they a guarantee that it would be so in seven years' time when the whiskey matured, and yet they went out and cancelled these contracts, with the result that thousands of acres of land that apparently should be growing malting barley are not growing it. That drives me back to this one point, that I agree with Deputy McQuillan and with those Deputies who want to see an increase in the production of whiskey in this country. I want to see a market obtained for that whiskey whether it be in this country or not, although I do not think we can improve the market an awful lot here, but, even if we do, I want to see a market for whiskey elsewhere. I agree with Deputy Dillon that we will have tremendous difficulty in trying to get into the American market.

Almost as great as they will have in trying to get into the Irish market.

There will be a tremendous difficulty in getting into the American market. One of the distilleries, Locke's of Kilbeggan, always sent their whiskey to the American market. There has been some stoppage of supplies of Locke's whiskey to America—I do not know what it is —but, apparently, the Americans took exception to something in connection with the containers in which the whiskey went out. I asked Deputy Dillon the question because I thought he was more in touch with the difficulties of the distillers than I am, and that he might have known that. I am only mentioning what is a general topic of conversation, which, of course, may not be correct at all, but apparently the suggestion is that the Americans insisted on the old jar, which we all knew, being altered. There was a certain figure, not the harp or the shamrock, but the lady. Apparently she was not sufficiently modestly dressed for the American market.

It is a good enough story to tell, particularly if it is about the Americans.

However, it is a story that is told in places where I go in now and again to enjoy a glass of Locke's whiskey.

Where the good pious Uncle Joe would be delighted to welcome the lady, naked or clothed—the nice kindly man.

It is a pity the Deputy cannot restrain himself, but that is one of the difficulties of getting into the American market. Undoubtedly, our distillers are going to have a very big problem. If we want to increase the production of whiskey, and if our distillers will not do it, or do not want to do it, and want to put all the difficulties they possibly can in the way, then we will have to do something else.

It has been mentioned here, in thecourse of other debates, that the machinery and plant in our distilleries are old, have become inefficient and want to be replaced. Now, in all the years that those distilleries were making very good profits they did not make prudent provision for the installation of new machinery.

Nonsense! Some of the Irish distilleries are the best in the world.

Deputy Dillon knows that one of their complaints is that their machinery is getting old——

Nonsense!

——and that they want the assistance of the State in providing new plant and new machinery.

Some of the Irish distilleries are the best in the world.

I am quite certain that some are, but some are not, and it is the ones which are not that are complaining that they are unable, because of this extra tax, to make the provision for replacing the machinery and equipment that they should make. If we are going to increase our whiskey production, and if we are going to give more employment on the land in growing malting barley, then I think the State will have the responsibility of entering into competition with those distillers and with those distilleries. We have got to face up to that fact. This House will have to face up to it. If we want to give extra employment on the land and to get extra production, the State will have to step in and will have to distil whiskey. It will have to make all the necessary arrangements to get the foreign markets that we require. I think that on this we are all of the one mind.

God forbid! Of all the daft proposals that have been made in this House, that caps them all.

A discussion on whiskey should not be made the occasion for disorderly interruptions.

Surely I am entitled to protest against a daft proposal of that kind?

We are all of the one mind that something must be done for the industry. The only contribution Deputy Dillon can make is to condemn the Minister.

No. To reduce the taxation.

Reduce the taxation by 6d. a glass to-morrow and Deputy Dillon knows very well it will not lead to the employment of one extra man in the industry.

Nonsense.

That is my view for what it is worth, that the reduction of the tax by 6d. a glass will not lead to the employment of one extra man in growing malting barley or in producing whiskey, and if it did lead to an increase in employment the number would be very small. What I want to see and what Deputy McQuillan and other people who are really interested in this industry want to see is not the employment of a few extra men but the employment of thousands of extra, men.

In distilling whiskey?

In the production of malting barley and in the distilling of whiskey, and in the provision of markets outside this country whether it is within the British Commonwealth, in Europe or even in Russia.

I thought we would come to that.

I do not mind where the whiskey is consumed so long as it is produced in Ireland and so long as people are given employment on the land growing the malting barley that is necessary.

Kindly, decent people will consume it.

I would be quite delighted if I could see on the breakfasttable of every American family one bottle of our best Irish whiskey. I would love to see it but nobody knows better than Deputy Dillon does that that cannot be done. We must have a market for our whiskey if it is going to be the industry that will give the employment we should like it to give, and we must get a market somewhere. There is another matter I might mention. Our Irish potstill whiskey is 24 U.P. That is, as far as Jameson, Paddy Flaherty's and Power's are concerned.

Not in foreign markets.

It is 24 U.P here. It is 30 U.P. in other markets. They are excellent whiskeys but apparently the foreign taste is for something not so strong.

All Irish whiskeys are sold at 30 U.P.

But they want something not so strong abroad. There is no use saying: "You must drink our Irish whiskey because it is the best whiskey". If we are a sensible people we will provide for them whiskey blended in the way that they want it. You cannot tell the customer he is wrong and we are right. Our Irish whiskey has its reputation in this country. It has its reputation in other parts of the world but the new generation growing up does not want to drink whiskey as potent as our whiskey is. Consequently, we must suit the taste of the people who are going to drink our whiskey. I know very well the Minister does not intend to set up a State whiskey industry——

He is making them all pioneers.

——but it will have to be done.

The Deputy cannot advocate that on this amendment.

No. I will not advocate that.

I am giving that warning in advance.

However, I am saying that no matter what happens if the whiskey industry is to be saved—and I think it is right that every effort should be made to save it and to improve it—then we must do it in a different way from that in which the industry is being run at the moment. We must have State enterprise and a State industry to give the employment that we should give in this whiskey industry.

All we are asking at the moment is not to kill it.

There is no sign that it is going to be killed.

I want, in fact, to give it new life.

Listening to this debate for the last three or four hours, I have heard some very lucid and comprehensive surveys of the distilling trade. I do not propose to wander up all the avenues that have been travelled by the other speakers, but for about the third time I want to make an appeal to the Minister—I have already done so on the Central Fund Bill and in my speech after the Budget this year had been introduced—to do something to alleviate the very heavy burdens that are pressing on the licensed trade throughout the country. There is no use in blinding ourselves to the fact that one trade on which sentence of death was pronounced in the Budget of 1952 was the licensed trade. The terrific impositions that were heaped on the trade had the effect of putting many people out of business. I am aware that in the part of the country from which I come men who were able to make ends meet heretofore have now been driven nearly to distraction. I would ask the Minister to do something before it is too late to lighten the burdens that he imposed on these people.

I refer to the ordinary licensed traders who have to make a living in this country. For the last year and a half or two years that has been wellnigh impossible. Every Deputy who has spoken is in complete agreement on that point. Anyone who frequents licensed premises, or pubs, as they are commonly called throughout the country, knows well that the same volume of business is not there at all. Let one go into any public-house, whether in Dublin, Cork or anywhere else and ask the owner or any of the men working behind the bar and every one of them will tell you that the volume of trade has been cut by 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. over the last year and a half. That is a sad blot on this Dáil which is responsible for the severity of those taxes.

Most people in the country have only one desire in life and that is to make ends meet. Nobody wants to accumulate any money but everyone is desirous of being able to foot their bills at the end of the month. To-night we are primarily discussing the distillery trade. When speaking on the Budget on the 21st May last, at column 2274, Volume 138, of the Official Debates of that date, I read for the Minister's benefit a letter which I received from the director of one of the biggest distilleries in Ireland. The letter read:—

"We enclose herewith a copy of a letter forwarded to the Minister for Finance by the Irish Potstill Distillers' Association.

We need hardly stress our grave anxiety at the damage being caused by the present excessive taxation to this old-established Irish industry which is so closely allied to the agricultural economy of the country."

That comes from one of the most reputable directors in one of the finest concerns in Ireland, a firm that has always paid decent wages and given a considerable amount of employment in the constituency I have the honour to represent, that is, East Cork. In various visits to that town, Midleton, where the whiskey so well known throughout Ireland, Paddy Flahertyand Midleton whiskey is produced, I have come in contact with men who for the last six or eight months have been laid off. The reason is that the demand is not there. I want to be perfectly frank. None of us wants to make any capital out of this. The Minister, in his wisdom or otherwise, decreed that such taxes were to be imposed. This is too serious a matter for politics but, when I get a letter from the director of one of the best-known distilleries in Ireland quoting the grave damage being caused by the present excessive taxation to this old established Irish industry so closely allied to the agricultural economy, it is incumbent upon me to sit up and take notice and to place that before the members of the Dáil and the Government. It is very, very serious.

Those of us who visit licensed premises cannot but observe that the same volume of business is not there. A glass of whiskey at 3/6 is more than any man can afford, even if he is earning £600, £700 or £1,000 a year. Three and sixpence a glass is far too much. People are beginning to realise that. People who have to do justice to other members of their household must deny themselves the luxury which whiskey is now. It was an amenity at one time to go into a house and to have a drink and a chat but those days are over.

The very same applies to the pint which was always regarded as of nutritional value for the average Irish working man. That has been put beyond the reach of many by the tax of the 1951 Budget. I was in the House at the time when these taxes were imposed and I felt that they were giving a crippling blow to the licensed trade.

I would appeal to the Minister that, if he wants to maintain these Irish industries that have had a tradition in the manufacture of the best whiskey for the last 100 or 150 years, he must ease the burden imposed on them. We cannot deny that the same demand is not there. One need only walk into a pub to realise it. It is very hard luck on the licensed traders to have their living filched from them like that. We observe in the daily papers, particularlyin the Dublin and Cork Saturday morning papers, what I can only describe as a bunch of licensed premises for sale. That is the mercury in the barometer indicating how the licensed trade is going. The licensed trade is decreasing and cash receipts falling and there is nothing for many publicans to do but to place their property on the market. No one wants to do that if he can help it, but that is the position of all but a very few in the licensed trade at present. The people in my part of the country have told me that any man who has to live on a public-house at the moment is just eking out a miserable existence if he has not some other business, such as a grocery trade, attached to it.

I would ask the Minister to give very serious attention to this matter. I know the Minister does not want to put anyone out of business. I do not want to resurrect anything unpalatable but some Deputies said it was all due to the inter-Party Government. It was not. There were other ways of getting money if the Minister wanted it, without passing sentence of death on the licensed trade.

In the East Cork constituency barley contracts have been cut by 50 per cent. for the coming year. East Cork is one of the best-known barley-growing areas in Ireland, and many members of the agricultural community secure a very remunerative livelihood from barley growing. The cut of 50 per cent. is a serious matter for them. If you kill the licensed trade, you kill the malting barley trade.

There are so many points that have been gone into by various speakers that I do not want to go over them all again. For the third time in the last two or three months, I would appeal to the Minister to do something. Those of us who come in contact with business people realise what it means to them. Nobody wants to be put out of business but, owing to the severity of this tax, many people will be.

The letter to which I have referred was from a director of one of the most reputable distilleries in Ireland. Businessmen have to live out of business.They are not politicians. They do not care a thrawneen for politics. They want to give service to the country. They want to produce the best. When men like that, of very high repute in the industrial world, send you a letter you must pay very serious attention to it. I hope the few words I have said will weigh with the Minister, and that he will do something to ease the burden on these people.

Are you suggesting that politicians are an inferior type of businessmen?

Listening this evening to the bewailing by some Deputies of the reduction in the consumption of whiskey, I was wondering were those the goody-goody boys whom I saw marching up the Lobby here a few years ago to prevent the misfortunate old farmer getting a drink after Mass because he was not three miles away from the pub. Are these the same goody-goody boys that are bewailing the fact that every fellow in the country cannot get drunk? It is rather amusing.

I supported you in that.

Let us get down to business. Let us, first of all, remember that the reason why these taxes have to be imposed is that we have to find each year a little sum of £7,000,000 odd to pay the interest on what the gentlemen over there spent. The sooner they get that into their heads and understand it the sooner we will be able to do a little more business. They may get away with a little thing here and there on a fair day down the country, but when you are here you have to meet the facts.

Questions were asked in this House in May, 1952. They were answered in this House by the present Minister in May, 1952, and they were never contradicted and could not be. They arefacts. They are in the Official Report for any Deputy who wants to read them.

Now let us deal with whiskey and see where we are. We hear all about the exports of whiskey. We hear that Fianna Fáil killed the exports of whiskey. That is the first cry that was made by some of the Deputies. Let us go into the figures. In 1944, we exported 111,000 proof gallons of whiskey and we got for that £147,000. In 1945, that was increased to 376,000 gallons and brought us in £400,000.

Was that the time D.W.D. was sold?

In 1946, it went up to 397,000 gallons. In 1949, it went up to 408,000 gallons and brought us in £500,000. In 1951, it went up to 444,000 gallons and brought us in £567,000. Then last year—it was not the consumption here that dropped—the export of whiskey fell to 75,000 odd gallons. The export of whiskey last year fell by 75,000 odd gallons.

What is the Deputy quoting from?

I am quoting from the trade and shipping statistics.

From what? Can you give the reference?

Go down and have a look at that in the Library and you will find it. I went to a share of trouble to get the figures. They are taken from the exports of whiskey as published below in the Library.

Go down and have a look. You might find out. Though we exported in 1951 444,800 gallons, in 1952 we fell to 369,095 gallons. When I heard Deputy O'Higgins (Junior) over there this evening telling us the number of gallons reduced consumption I was amazed when I found I could take this out of it, 75,500 that the gentlemen forgot to export last year as an assistance to the artificial reduction of the acreage of barley. The barley, mind you, as Deputy Cowan told you, would not be sold forseven years more as whiskey. They reduced their contract acreage last year. Why? They must have great faith in the Fianna Fáil Government because they believed that we were going to be here in seven years' time.

Because they used feeding barley which they got cheaper.

One of two things was going to happen. Either we were going to be here in seven years or Jamsie was going to come back——

A reference of that kind should not be made to a Deputy.

Oh, yes, Deputy Dillon was going to come back to do to the Irish farmer what he did in 1948 when he shipped into this country £1,000,000 worth of foreign barley to choke our market.

I have already said that we may not go back on these matters.

I am giving the reasons that to my mind induced the distillers about whom we have heard so much here this evening to reduce the contract acreage of malting barley this year.

The Deputy will deal with this amendment.

They had reduced it for one of two reasons. Either they expected us to be here in seven years' time or they expected and hoped that Deputy Dillon would be in command this year and would import all he wanted of it and wipe out the Irish farmer who was growing malting barley.

On a point of order, Deputy Corry might not be conversant with the figures.

That is not a point of order. That is a point of debate.

I have given here the figures. The export of Irish whiskey increased from 1944 to 1951 by 400 per cent.—from 111,000 gallons to 444,000 gallons. Now let those who say that an export market could not be built up remember that. I have gone back in the Library as far as I could, as far back as 1944 and got the figures of the number of proof gallons exported in 1944, and I followed them up to 1951, and those are the figures. We hear men wailing here about certain distillers. I have not the slightest sympathy for any distiller in this country for I know their record, and I know what they did along the years past back to the time when with a Cumann na nGaedheal Government in office here they were allowed to bring in all the foreign stuff they wanted and they bought Irish barley at 13/6 a barrel.

The Deputy cannot ramble around everywhere. The Deputy will come to this amendment.

This particular trouble of the tax this year does not affect the particular distillery that Deputy O'Gorman is talking about at all. We know that you can sell all the Paddy Flaherty whiskey you can get, but the trouble is in getting it. The only group who are knocking down in this job are the fellows selling the tripe and poison, as Deputy Cowan said. Therefore, as far as I can see it, we have seen here a definite attempt by these people. I have given two instances— one a reduction by 75,000 gallons in their export sales of whiskey last year, and number two, their reduction in contract acreage for a product that they would not be putting on the market for seven years more—two definite attempts to create an atmosphere in this country which would endeavour to force this Government to reduce the tax on whiskey.

I welcome this amendment first of all because I believe that if the taxes on spirits and on beer are reduced to what they were before the 1952 Budget it will be a great benefit to the agricultural industry. I am very surprised to seethat the publican Deputies from the other side of the House have not said a word at all about the tax that was imposed over 12 months ago. Barley growers in this country have suffered to a very great extent during the last 14 or 15 months. The amount of barley taken from barley growers has been reduced by approximately half over the last year. The farmer who would have a quota of five acres of barley would have something over two acres now. The unemployment position which is growing fast in the licensed trade in Dublin is something that the Government should consider, and consider very seriously. Contrary to what has been said by the Deputies on the other side of the House, there has been a very serious drop in the consumption of spirits in the licensed trade. I know because I have a pub myself. The Minister and members of the Government could find out here if they made inquiries in the Dáil bar to what extent the trade has been affected by the increase in duties. The increase in taxes on spirits and beer has seriously affected licensed premises throughout the country.

I would like to point out to the Minister that during the last three or four years every local authority saw fit to increase by nearly 100 per cent. the poor law valuation of all the licensed premises. I would like to quote a few examples. The Dew Drop Inn in Trinity Street, Dublin, which was purchased two years ago for a total sum of £10,300, was offered for sale about five weeks ago and it was withdrawn. There was one bid for it, £4,000. This is only one case. There is Lawlor's of Frederick Street; £25,000 was the figure at which negotiations took place for the purchase of these premises four years ago. The negotiations failed then. The highest offered about six weeks ago for these premises when put up for sale—owing, I think, to a death in the family—was £11,500, less than half the price. O'Hara's of Chancery Street had two houses in respect of which a combined figure of £25,000 was the basis of negotiation for sale four years ago. It was sold a few weeks ago, one house for £5,800 and the second for £4,200.

I just mention these few facts to show the Deputies on the other side of the House how the licensed trade has been affected. It has been affected principally by the increase in the tax on spirits here. I might mention that there has been a fall in consumption of 27.8 per cent. in the case of spirits and of 13 per cent. in the case of beer. There has been a fall of approximately 6 per cent. in the gross profit which the publican made out of his business. Everybody knows that the overhead expenses of publicans, particularly in the City of Dublin, have increased considerably.

I would like to refer to what Deputy Corry said about the increase in the exports of whiskey from 1944 on. It was a very simple matter for the exports of whiskey to increase from 1944 on, because up to then the export of whiskey was practically prohibited. Whiskey was on a quota or a ration basis here in this country and everybody concerned in the licensed trade found difficulty in getting their own requirements.

They exported it in 1944.

There were 100,000 gallons exported in 1944 and it increased considerably each year after that. The Minister mentioned in his Budget speech that it was noticeable that there were very few withdrawals from bond prior to the Budget of 1952. The Minister knows well that a prohibition Order was issued by the Department of Finance prohibiting the withdrawal of spirits at that period. This year, prior to the Budget, even though it was commonly voiced throughout the country that there might be a reduction in the tax on spirits and so forth, the withdrawals from bond did not appreciably rise.

There are several questions I would like to ask the Minister and Deputies on the other side. Apart from that, I would like to hear some Deputy on the other side who is interested in the licensed trade, say a few words here as to what he thinks about the tax on spirits and the tax on beer. I would ask the Minister is not the demand for barley now lower than ever before? In view of the fact that there is one major brewery here in this city whichclaims that it has two years' stock of malting barley, how are the farmers going to be affected? How are the other breweries fixed in that respect? The farming community will suffer and so will the farm labourers who would be employed on this land. I would ask the Minister also is there not less employment in the distilleries themselves than there was two years ago? Is it not a fact that a lot of men have been let go from certain major distilleries in the country? Is it not a fact also that employees of certain distilleries have been warned that they may be allowed to go in the near future because the directors did not see any great prospects? If the Minister or his staff take the trouble to inquire from the union that controls the licensed trade in Dublin, he will find there a very sorry tale. The licensed houses in Dublin at the moment are overstaffed in comparison to the trade they are doing and the time is approaching, and approaching very fast, when the position will have to be dealt with drastically before any solution can be found.

The last question I put to the Minister—and I think it a question in which this amendment cries for an answer— is it not a fact that the Minister is now getting less revenue than he was before he imposed these taxes? He expected to collect £1,020,000 more than was collected in the year 1951. Instead of that, he collected something over £400,000 less. I put these four questions to the Minister and if he cannot answer them satisfactorily—I do not think he can—he should give serious consideration to this amendment. I believe, and we on this side of the House believe, that if the taxes are removed from beer and spirits the Minister's Department will gain more revenue.

There was an understanding or arrangement with the main Opposition Party—I do not want to bring in other Parties—that the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill would be concluded to-night and the other stages taken to-morrow. I want to know if that arrangement will be possible now.

Mr. A. Byrne

Who made that arrangement or understanding?

The Whips. I am not committing the Deputy to it. It was the main Opposition Party. The Labour Party did not commit themselves. I do not want to interfere in any way.

I am a Deputy in this House and have the same rights as any other Deputy, whether Taoiseach or ex-Taoiseach, and I am not prepared to be bound by any decision made by this meeting of Whips of Parties.

I do not want to interfere with Deputies' rights. I am making a simple announcement.

Mr. A. Byrne

I wish to say a few words. I thought others were going to speak. In the Minister's Budget of 1952 he blundered badly in his taxation on the licensed trade. He has hurt them considerably; whether that was his intention or not, I do not know. Deputy Belton and others have told you that licensed houses have been offered for sale and only half the price expected was bid—a drop of 50 per cent. inside five years. Most of these people are decent men from country districts, farmers' sons who invested their savings in licensed houses and got the banks to help them with the second half of the purchase price. They undertook very heavy commitments. The Minister stepped in last year and put on them the most crushing burden ever put on any trade. It is a good trade, a decent trade, they are decent men that are in it and they deserve more from an Irish Government than being crushed out the way they are. They give good employment and nowadays I understand they are paying very good wages. We merely asked the Minister, if he has to find money as we all admit he has, not to crush out decent Irishmen whose fathers in the days gone by subscribed to keep the national flag flying in this country. It is not as if they were foreigners who came from Czechoslovakia or somewhere else and got subsidies in order to give employment. The licensed trade got nothing from the Government and they did not askfor anything. The whiskey-distilling trade never got anything from the Minister and yet he is crushing them out. They merely want to be allowed to do their own business and to get some encouragement to get the foreign trade which the Minister said they should get.

It has been stated that they have done everything humanly possible to get their product into the foreign market. Irish visitors to New York will tell you that you will see there aeroplanes advertising Irish whiskey. I have seen them myself. They spent a lot of money in that way.(Interruptions.)The licensed traders are Irishmen in a decent trade recognised by the State. They pay their way and their sons and daughters do well in this country. They deserve more than sneers from Deputies when one tries to say a word for them. They are farmers' sons who invested money in the licensed business in Dublin.

Deputy Belton told us that £25,000 was paid for a public-house. Surely no farmer's son will be able to pay £25,000.

Mr. A. Byrne

Deputy Belton named the houses. Willie O'Hara's two houses at Chancery Place near the Four Courts were put up five years ago and £23,000 was offered for them by a Belfast firm. That offer was not accepted. That man died and left a widow and the two houses were sold recently for £11,000. That is what an Irish Government has done for the widow of Willie O'Hara. That is the price which was given for two of the best licensed houses in this country. If there is any doubt about it, let Deputy Gallagher make inquiries. Deputy Gallagher comes in here and, when Deputy Alfred Byrne stands up, he interrupts so that he may have the reflected glory of interrupting Deputy Byrne.

The Deputy should come to the amendment.

Mr. A. Byrne

I was on the amendment until I was challenged by Deputy Gallagher about the licensed trade. I tell Deputy Gallagher that the licensedtrade is as decent a trade as ever existed. The licensed traders will not get a licence until their character is examined. They have to satisfy a judge that they are decent and honourable men. They pay their way. When they appeal to an Irish Government they are just sneered at. Deputies forget that they are the sons of colleagues down the country. They are the sons of farmers who earned money and they came to Dublin and bought licensed houses. We all know that is true. I cannot understand why there should be this sneering at the licensed trade.

You are making an appeal again.

Mr. A. Byrne

Tipperary is a grand county and a Tipperary man has as much right to engage in the licensed trade as any other man. They are decent, honourable men who pay good wages and give good employment. I know a number of these Tipperary men and they are decent men.

I call on the Deputy to come to amendment No. 4.

Mr. A. Byrne

You must give me an opportunity. If somebody tries to get a "sly jab" in by interrupting, a Deputy is entitled to reply and not let him get away with it. The Minister, in 1952, introduced the most vicious Budget ever.(Interruptions.)It was a Budget which increased the price of the loaf from 4d. to 9d.

The Deputy must not discuss the Budget of 1952 on this amendment.

Mr. A. Byrne

It put an extra duty on whiskey.

If Deputy Byrne will not address his remarks to the amendment he will have to resume his seat.

Mr. A. Byrne

I am not a good customer of the whiskey trade, but I say that those engaged in it are decent men and they ought to get protection from this House.

The Deputy has said that at least four times.

Mr. A. Byrne

A good thing can lose nothing by being repeated often, especially when Deputies are trying to make a laughing-stock of it. The Minister was mistaken when he put an increased tax on whiskey. He lost £400,000 or £500,000 in revenue in his efforts to get more money. We all agree that the money has to be found, but in his desire to get that money the Minister ought not to crush out a trade like that. He ought to give the distillers, who give good employment, a chance to carry on. They are not asking for a subsidy. They only want to be allowed to carry on their own business and give decent employment.

I am voting in favour of this amendment because I am against an increase in taxation. I am consistent in adopting this line as I am opposing extra taxation, and I am not looking for further expenditure, which does not happen on all sides of the House. I have had letters, as Deputy O'Gorman has had, from firms in my constituency and in his. They complain that they cannot sell their products and at the same time there are people all over the area who cannot get supplies from the firms who are writing to me and to Deputy O'Gorman saying that they cannot sell their products. Only this week a number of people were told that they could not get supplies from the firms who wrote to us saying that they could not sell their products. They were told that they could not get supplies or that they could take whatever they wanted this month but that they would not get any more until the end of September.

There is another point I want to make on this amendment, and that is with regard to the amount of feeding barley that was bought for the brewing and distilling industry last year. It was bought at a cheap price and it was used for brewing and distilling. I defy the brewers or the distillers to contradict that statement. We have had certain cases where they objected to the quality. One particular firm took in a quantity of short straw barley which they said previously was not fit for using for the liquor trade.They forgot that they had said that, and they could not distinguish it from the other. I think that is the situation that we should consider. There is another point that I want to bring before the House, and that is that when the price of barley increased to the very high price of 84/- a barrel, the Minister for Industry and Commerce came into this House and said that the price of whiskey and the price of stout would have to be increased because of the increase in the price of barley. But when the price of barley fell last year, and when I tabled questions to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, he said that the fact that the price of barley had fallen affected only a very small percentage of the cost, and would not be reflected in the price of the glass of whiskey or the pint of stout.

I think these are things we should concern ourselves with. If the high price of 84/- a barrel for barley affects the price of stout and whiskey when it falls to 52/- or 48/—and there was a lot of stout and whiskey brewed and distilled from 48/- barley last year— the prices should come down when the price of barley comes down. But the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that the small percentage of reduction that that involved was not worth considering. But if the farmers get a few shillings more per barrel it affects the prices.

The first thing I wish to point out to the House is that this amendment deals only with excise duties on home-made spirits, but it is of course customary to keep duty on imported and home-made spirits in line. My first objection to this is based on a very sordid motive—that if we want to accept the amendment in the form in which it stands, it would in a full year cost the Exchequer £800,000. If we were to apply the principle of the amendment and grant corresponding reduction in duty on imported spirits the cost to the Exchequer in a full year would be £1,000,000. Last year we did not balance our budget by almost £2,000,000. This year we are hoping to balance our budget by means of positiveeconomies in the Public Services, but if we give away this £1,000,000 we must replace the lost revenue by revenue from some other source. It will not represent a reduction in taxation. It will represent a transfer of taxation from this commodity to some other commodity, and I would like to know what the other commodity is that will yield £1,000,000 in increased taxation. That is, of course, the important point, the point which has been very skilfully evaded by those speaking in support of this amendment.

The next thing we ought to consider is this: whether it is a matter for praise or blame there is a duty on spirits in this country. It is probably the lowest in the world, and the price of spirits in this country is probably among the lowest in the world. Certainly, if we do pay 3/6 for a glass of whiskey here let us not forget that people on the other side of the Border pay 5/-, and I think, in Great Britain, they pay 5/3. And they buy their whiskey, if you like, in the despised "nip" of which I think Deputy T.F. O'Higgins spoke so disparagingly during the course of the debate.

Let us examine some other significant figures, but before I come to them I want to say this: that in dealing with the distilling industry and with those who stand in an intimate position between the distillers, on the one hand, and the consumers on the other, we are dealing with a very close-knit vested interest. It has been said here there are about five or six distilling concerns in this country, some very long-established and very wealthy. All of them made very substantial profits during the war years. Then, between them and the retailers there stands again a very close-knit organisation, an association of wholesalers. And then, of course, we come down to the retailers about whom I have nothing to say.

While we have been talking here about the depressed condition of the distilling industry and of the spirit trade, it has been suggested by the Opposition that the duties which wereimposed in the 1952 Budget represent the only increase in the cost of spirits to the consumer that has taken place since Fianna Fáil was last in office. But, of course, that is not the fact. The price of whiskey has admittedly increased by 1/- a glass since 1948. Since the Coalition Government took office in 1948 the price of whiskey has increased by 1/- a glass. But the Exchequer only got 5½d. out of that. The other 6½d. was distributed among all those who were engaged in the trade, and there was no complaint coming from the Coalition Government or from the present members of the Opposition. There was no talk during the period when they were permitting the price to the consumer to increase by 6d. a glass for the benefit of the trade. There was not any talk then about killing the distilling industry, or any talk about the effect that the increase in price was going to have upon Irish agriculture. Not at all. It was given by the then inter-Party Government, by the Coalition, this 6d. was given with an open hand as a gesture, shall we say, to show their appreciation to those who had been such stalwart supporters of them during the elections. That cost the consumer, you know, more than the increase in the spirit duties made in the 1952 Budget, a great deal more because there was more whiskey being consumed during that period, and the consumers had to pay on the increased consumption an additional 6d. a glass.

But let me get back to the point I was making that we have a very close-knit organisation of vested interests here. We have a very small number of distillers and we have a very well organised wholesale trade, and at the end of it all we have the retailers who will put over the dope on behalf, if you like, of themselves, of the wholesalers and of the distillers, and say that the Government is crushing the distilling industry by the taxation it has imposed. That is all very well, and, of course, a well-organised campaign was undoubtedly conducted during the year 1952-53.

During that financial year, there is no doubt whatever—and I shall give youthe figures to support what I am going to say in a moment—that there was a concerted campaign to restrict withdrawals from bond, in order that the Opposition might be able to get up and say that the increase in the spirits duty had defeated itself. I have the figures here for the net clearances from bond of home-made spirits for the years, 1947-48, 1948-49, 1949-50, 1950-51, 1951-52, 1952-53 and for the first quarter of the current financial year. Here are the figures. In 1947-48 clearances in the first quarter of the financial year amounted to 163,000 odd gallons. In 1948-49 the amount of the clearances in the first quarter fell to 161,000 gallons. They rose again in 1949-50 to 163,000 for the first quarter of the financial year. In 1950-51 they were 166,000 gallons for the corresponding period. They fell again in the first quarter of 1951-52 to 161,000 gallons and then there was a catastrophic drop to 105,000 gallons in the first quarter of 1952-53 but in the first quarter of the current financial year there has been a surprising increase, an increase of no less than 50 per cent. in the clearances of home-made spirits from bond. The figure has jumped from 105,000 gallons in the corresponding period of last year to 155,000 gallons this year and I can tell the House it is still going up.

There is another very significant figure that I think I should quote. In the month of May, of the year 1947-48, clearances from bond amounted to 44,000 gallons and in May of 1948-49, to 43,000 gallons. In 1949-50, when there was some expectation that there might be an increase in the duty—I should remind the House that the Budget for the year 1948-49 closed with a substantial deficit and people were expecting that in the subsequent Budget there would be increased taxation—the clearance for that month jumped from 43,000 to 54,000 gallons. In 1950-51 they went up a little further to 55,000 gallons. In 1951-52 they fell to 36,000 gallons, but in the month of April, of the year 1951-52, they had reached 84,000 gallons, which was probably a record clearance for that month since the State was established in 1922. In 1952-53, the clearances from bond werea little higher for the month of May than they were for May, 1951-52; they were 38,000 gallons, but in May of 1953-54, perhaps because everybody started drinking, they jumped to no less than 75,000 gallons, an increase in the clearances for the month of May of almost 100 per cent. over 1952-53 and more than 100 per cent. over 1951-52 and the highest figure recorded for the month of May during any year since 1947-48.

What does that show? It shows one thing, that the decline in the consumption of spirits was not at all as great as would be indicated by the decline in the clearances from bond. I am not prepared to deny that there has been some reduction in the consumption of whiskey but these figures show that the consumption of whiskey is tending to regain what might be described as its normal level, not the abnormal consumption which we experienced here when we were spending 128,000,000 Marshall Aid loan dollars, but the consumption, which was regarded as normal, of 1947-48. The figures which I have given indicate that in this year the clearances from bond and the consumption of home-made spirits will probably be of the order of 650,000 gallons. It is as high a consumption as was reached in 1929-30 of home-made spirits. I anticipate that it will probably be repeated this year.

Deputy Lehane gave some very significant information to the House. While we have been talking about the decline in the spirit trade, while we have been saying that people were not wanting whiskey, he was able to inform the House that one of the distilleries with which he was well acquainted was declining to supply its customers. Now if they have been piling up, as they have been over these years, stocks in bond, why would any distiller refuse to supply customers, why would any distiller put his customers on a quota if he had not one thing in mind—to try and reduce the figure for the clearances from bond, to try and give support to the campaign which has been carried on for the last 12 months in regard to the wine and spirit trade but particularly in regard to the distillers' trade?

There is another significant thing to which some attention should be directed. In the course of the debate people have adverted to the important part which the Scotch distilling industry has played in providing exports for Great Britain. They have been saying that the distilling industry here has been very slow to try to break into the export markets and we have had all sorts of excuses for that. The Government, it is said, has been blamed because they restricted exports during the war years and tried to ensure that there was an ample supply of whiskey at home. But these restrictions have been considerably relaxed in recent times. They were in fact completely removed by this Government. The people who have been blaming us because these restrictions were maintained are the people who kept them on during the period they were in office. This Government freed the distilling trade; not only that, it has met the distillers and has pressed them to try and develop an export trade.

Mr. O'Higgins

After the markets are gone.

The extraordinary thing is that during one of the years there was a very considerable increase in the export of Irish whiskey but for some reason or another there was also a very heavy slump. Whatever the reason may have been I do not know, but in the year to the 31st March, 1951, the exports of home-made potable spirits amounted to 414,000 gallons. In 1952, that figure had jumped to 458,000 gallons—and then, of course, somebody had to show that the distilling industry was being killed by the present Government. For some extraordinary reason, the exports for the year ended 31st March, 1953, dropped to 305,000 gallons.

Mr. O'Higgins

In other words, they deliberately lost money?

The Government had nothing to do with that. The Government had freed the export trade. Thedistillers were free to export to any part of the world they liked. They succeeded in exporting 458,000 gallons for the year ending 31st March, 1952, and then they could not export more than 305,000 gallons for the year ending 31st March, 1953. I do not know what the explanation is, but when I hear talk about rationing and when I hear of distillers, who were complaining about bad business, putting their customers upon a quota, I begin to wonder whether this is not again part of the concerted plan to try and break this Government and to make the Government of this country subservient to the distilling industry and other interests associated with it.

We have heard talk about the fall in value of licensed premises. Having regard to the statements the Opposition have been making up and down this country over the past 12 months about the parlous condition to which the wine and spirit trade has been reduced, and about the oppressive taxation that has been levied on beer and spirits, how does anybody think that the value of licensed premises would be maintained? On those people who have been making these speeches rests the responsibility for the fact that people are chary about going into the licensed trade.

I think that the figures I have given indicate that we cannot afford to accept this amendment because, in a full year, it would cost about £800,000 if it were confined to home-made spirits and about £1,000,000 if it were applied to imported spirits as well. In addition to that, the figures which I have given indicate that the spirit duties are beginning to resume their old rate of yield and that the estimates we made in respect of them in the 1952 Budget will perhaps be realised if not in 1953 at least in 1954, even on the existing rates of taxation. The duty on spirits here is probably the lowest in Europe or the world and the prices here are still considerably cheaper than they are in any other country.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 71.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, John.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas, N.J.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9.

I move amendment No. 5:—

Before Section 9 to insert a new section as follows:—

In lieu of the duty of excise imposed by Section 10 of the Finance Act, 1952, there shall be charged,levied and paid on all beer brewed within the State a duty of excise at the rate set out in sub-section (2) of Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1948.

In view of the fact that there is a desire to get the Bill through to-night, I am content with merely moving the amendment.

I am not accepting it.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 71.

  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, John.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas, N.J.
  • Cafferky, Dominick.
  • Carew, John.
  • Cawley, Patrick
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finan, John.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lehane, Patrick D.
  • Lynch, John (North Kerry).
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Mannion, John.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Gorman, Patrick J.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. (Jun.).
  • O'Leary, Johnny.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamon.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • ffrench-O'Carroll, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Gallagher, Colm.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Jack (Cork Borough).
  • McCann, John.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cowan, Peadar.
  • Crowley, Honor Mary.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Duignan, Peadar.
  • Fanning, John.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maguire, Patrick J.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • O'Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Rice, Bridget M.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Doyle and Mac Fheórais; Níl: Deputies ó Briain and Hilliard.
Amendment declared negatived.
Section 8 put and agreed to.
Sections 10 and 11 put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.

Is the Minister accepting my amendment?

I would ask the Deputy not to press it. I could not accept it.

I understand that, if the Minister is not accepting it, I cannot move it at this late hour. Can the Minister say why two receipts have to be stamped?

They are not necessary. The agent's receipt is good enough. The first receipt given is a good enough receipt.

And it is not necessary to have the second one.

That satisfies me.

Amendment No. 6 not moved.

I move amendment No. 7:—

Before Section 12, to insert a new section as follows:—

(1) The following exemption shall be substituted for exemption numbered (6) under the heading "Receipt given for, or upon the payment of, money amounting to £2 or upwards" in the First Schedule to the Stamp Act, 1891.

(6) Receipt given for or on account of any salary, pay or wages, or for or on account of any other like payment made to or for the account or benefit of any person, being the holder of an office or an employee, in respect of his office or employment, or for or on account of money paid in respect of any pension, superannuation allowance, compassionate allowance or other like allowance.

(2) Sub-section (2) of Section 38 of the Finance Act, 1926 (No. 35 of 1926), and Section 36 of the Finance Act, 1935 (No. 28 of 1935), are hereby repealed.

This amendment is to cover more comprehensively the point raised in Deputy Kyne's amendment: that is to say, it is to exempt all receipts for payments of salaries and wages from stamp duty.

Are we to take it that the amendment now moved by the Minister will in fact, as from the date on which this Act is enacted, abolish the necessity for affixing stamps to receipts for wages or for other payments in the form of wages?

Yes; it will once this Act is passed.

I take it that the amendment abolishes the necessity foraffixing stamps to receipts and wages or any other payment in the form of wages?

I do not know what payment in the form of wages implies.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 8 not moved.
Section 12, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 13 to 17, inclusive, and the Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendments.
Report Stage ordered for Thursday, 9th July, 1953.
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