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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 30 Jul 1953

Vol. 141 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 27—Agriculture (Resumed).

Any achievement which we make in agriculture will go a long way to solving many problems that are discussed here, for so much, as we all know, is dependent on the prosperity of farming in this country. Now we are right up against the harvest and the outlook from the weather point of view is not too good.

The combine has given us something new in getting our harvest in quickly, but if it has solved that problem it has certainly created probably a greater one. I wonder what arrangements are available for grain storage and the drying of the grain crops, and if sufficient facilities and plants are available to deal with the question. With quite a lot of corn coming on to the market quickly there is an amount of congestion, and if this business of dealing with it could be improved it would make a tremendous difference. That, I think, has caused different Ministers a headache—too much barley, particularly barley, and too much wheat and oats coming on to the market together. It has caused a drop in the prices. I dealt with them to some small extent on the last day, but it is no harm to mention them again. It is no harm to mention again that these prices have been much the same over the past few years and that they should be considerably improved owing to the greater cost of production. I do not see why, when everybody got rises in wages, and so forth, the price of feeding barley, in particular, should remain the same. I think there was an announcement the other day to the effect thata price of 48/- was fixed for it. That is scarcely sufficient.

Mr. Walsh

No price has been fixed for barley.

The impression down the country is that that is the price for feeding barley.

Mr. Walsh

No.

It is very necessary that we should have more feeding barley to offset the importation of maize and other feeding-stuffs. It would make a great contribution to our prosperity if it could be grown more extensively.

In addition to the other difficulties which farmers have to contend with, there is also the problem of bleak years. That is particularly so in tillage farming. You might have a bumper crop of wheat, worth probably £200 an acre, but we must not forget that there might be three or four years in between when you could not successfully grow wheat on the same land unless it is very good land indeed and, even then, there is a risk attached to it.

The price of straw and hay has depreciated. These are the subsidiaries, with the crops in between. The bottom seems to have fallen completely out of the market for straw. It made a difference to the big tillage farmers. In reply to the contention that they should use the straw, we may be informed that nowadays quite a lot of people use artificials because of the labour difficulty involved in turning the straw into manure, and so forth.

Any step which will help to arrest the drift of our people from the farms —which overshadows all other issues in Ireland to-day—is very welcome.

I take this opportunity of making a fairly general review of the situation in agriculture as it affects the people whom I represent, in the main. While I am not going to indict the Minister with complete responsibility for what has occurred, one of the most significant features of the economic impact of falling prices in my constituency is the difficulty that has arisen owing to the bad price for turkeys last year, and the egg situation,and the dead fowl trade at the moment. It may be that, when concluding, the Minister may be able to indicate that a brighter period is ahead.

I think the Minister is well aware of the fact that places such as West Cork and, indeed, some of the other Gaeltacht areas where the people went in extensively for fowl, are feeling the difficulties of the present situation. I do not intend to involve myself in an argument as to responsibility. It is sufficient for me to direct the Minister's attention to the fact that unless this uncertainty and this slump that has arisen in that particular industry is effectively arrested, and unless the Minister can show a way to a future in that particular trade, we are in danger that the rapid expansion we were able to get in that industry may be counteracted by an extraordinary contraction. I am not saying that the Minister could have influenced in any way some of the circumstances that caused this slump. It is possible that our costs of production could not enable Irish producers to compete against the surfeit of this commodity that appeared from other countries. However, if the poultry industry, as such, is to survive, I suppose the Minister realises as well as I do that unless there is some return by way of margin of profit for the effort that is put into the industry, it is not likely to remain a feature of our economy. It is a feature in our agricultural economy that is very germaine to the normal life of the smallholder such as I have the honour to represent. It has been a significant part of the agricultural economy in West Cork over a long period. When I talk of the difficulties in the poultry industry there, when I ask the Minister to prognosticate as to what the future for turkeys may be, I do not do so in a spirit of seeking political advantage or in an anxiety to create political difficulty. I do so purely on the basis of trying to get the departmental view and the Minister's view as to the continuation of this particular branch of agriculture in a practical economic way in the future. It is unfair that people who may be concentrating on this type ofproduction should not be given due and ample warning and guidance from the Minister as to the alternative they might pursue rather than to allow them to run themselves into continuous difficulty in this particular trade if its future is fraught with difficulty. I want the Minister to accept my anxiety with regard to this trade in the spirit of one who is anxious to preserve that particular adjunct to the economy common in my constituency at the present time so as to ensure that the people engaged in that particular branch of agriculture will have a reasonable return for their labour.

Another important feature has occurred in the economy of West Cork. Again, I am not, at this particular stage, going to lay the responsibility at the door of the Minister. Suffice to say that the present Minister was vociferous in his criticism, while he was in opposition, of his predecessor, in this particular regard. There is quite a slump in the flax industry in West Cork. It may not be of consequence, in general, to most constituencies in Ireland but in my constituency, apart from being a highly remunerative cash crop, it was also responsible for the giving of considerable employment. We had a number of scutching mills in operation in my constituency that absorbed a considerable labour force over a long period of the year. I know that the Minister can say that this matter is outside his control but I recollect that when his predecessor was in office and took the line that he would not allow the Northern spinners to dictate what the price of flax would be in this country, and when he told them that he would not accept a differential between a grower on one side of the Border and a grower on the other side of the Border, the present Minister for Agriculture, who was then a Deputy on the Opposition side of the House— as well as some of his colleagues— was vociferous in his criticism. In the light of what has subsequently occurred, I think that that tempest of fury was very ill-advised.

I do not suggest for a moment that responsibility can be placed on any Minister for the present collapse butI do think it fair to say that, at least, there was no lack of responsibility in the action taken by the Minister's predecessor. I feel the present Minister could again give guidance if the Minister feels—and he is the person who can assess the situation properly —that it is more advisable to direct these people in West Cork to get out of flax and to go in for the production of certain alternative crops. I think he should have the courage to issue that type of directive and that type of appeal before the season arrives for getting the land ready for flax.

I am not going to suggest, and I think it would be unreasonable for me to suggest, that the Minister can directly influence the price of flax in future seasons. Whether it is possible to preserve the flax industry on an economic basis, outside periods of war or emergency, is a question, I would say, that needs far more careful analysis than can be provided by casual references in debate, but I do feel, involved as I was in the controversy that arose on the flax issue, that the attitude then adopted by the Minister's predecessor has shown in its ultimate result how right his conception was of the reliability to be placed on contact with the Northern spinners.

The difficulty that confronts the flax industry is that when a man has his flax grown and dam retted, he is at the mercy of these people when it comes to the question of price and he is also at their mercy when it comes to grading. Bearing in mind the sitution that has arisen in connection with linseed oil and linseed cake, and the experiments carried on by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, which have just been approved, I am wondering if the Minister might not experiment with the possibility of developing flax for seed purposes so as to leave us less dependent on outside supplies of linseed oil. I know I have been told that the Department does not think this is feasible, but I would say, from the experience of some people in that area, particularly that of a former member from West Cork, now the Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Seanad, Senator O'Donovan, thatit is possible to grow flax in West Cork, particularly in the more isolated areas, that has a very good seed content. I would urge on the Minister that in dealing with the flax problem he might experiment wisely with the possibility of developing our own natural resources for the supply of that very necessary commodity, linseed oil.

I shall pass from flax and poultry, leaving the Minister, I hope, under no misapprehension that both of them from the point of view of my constituency are problems of considerable magnitude. It may be that in the national picture they may not have the significance that I try to give them in this House, but the Minister will readily appreciate, representing as he does a farming community himself, that to people on the particular type of holdings and in the isolation in which the people of West Cork live, these problems are of major importance.

We have difficulties—I find it difficult myself—to arrive at a conviction with regard to ceiling or shall I say, floor prices for cereal crops. Pressure has been brought to bear on various occasions with the object of securing that a floor should be put under the price of oats. In fact, it was a most vociferous demand of the Fianna Fáil Party, on the eve of a Donegal byelection, that the Government should buy oats at a certain price. Subsequently some of the very people who availed of the Government purchase of oats had to pay an enhanced price to the Government to get it back. To arrive at what might be regarded as the floor price for oats one has to try to estimate accurately the supply available and the potential shortage that may arise at the back end of the season.

Barley is a sore problem, how sore the Minister has experienced, because he knows the cynicism of some farmers who listened to him explain the barley situation during the East Cork by-election on one Sunday morning when the Minister and myself had occasion to clash. It was idle to talk to them of the price for barley when they had in their pockets—such of them as accepted the price—contracts from themaltsters at considerably reduced prices. Possibly the difficulty which arose was not in the main the responsibility of the Minister himself, probably it arose in the main from an omission of the Minister rather than from any culpable act of his, because a situation had undoubtedly developed, fathered by his predecessor, in which you had an excellent feeding barley grown which, in quality, reached and rivalled barley of any other type grown in the country. You had ymer barley of first quality produced in the country and commercial interests reaping a harvest at the expense of the producer. That difficulty has left a problem in relation to barley that will not prove easy of solution. As well as that, it makes for a distinction between barleys that, in the light of what was bought by the maltsters and distillers in the past year, really should not exist. Because an equal quality article is grown under contract it commands an infinitely higher price than the same quality article not grown under contract. Such difficulties and distinctions have bred uneasiness and uncertainty in the minds of the barley growers and that position calls for immediate attention from the Department now.

I have always subscribed to the belief that the basis of our agricultural economy is effectively epitomised in the adage of our late Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Paddy Hogan:—

One more cow;

One more sow;

One more acre under the plough!

If that particular agricultural economy is to find its logical conclusion it is essential that the Minister and his Department should by way of encouragement and price stimulant urge the farmer to grow more and more of the feeding stuffs we require in order to ultimately ship our beef on the hoof, our pork and our poultry into the markets they command. It is now becoming more and more evident that we cannot have a capricious type of agricultural planning. We can no longer have, as we have had in the past, the basis of our agricultural economy twisted in the political arena. There is no doubt Irish land can produce infinitely more than it is producing at present.There is room for tremendous expansion.

I charge the Minister with certain neglect in that respect. One cannot conceive any sincerity in urging our farmers to increase production in a situation in which the agricultural community is being asked simultaneously to suffer the shock and strain of grossly increased costs of production, plus an increased burden of taxation. Let us analyse the reality, if any, of the Minister's approach to our agricultural economy. But for the wavering and uncertainty of some Deputies on the recent vote of confidence we would have had the farming community asked to bear a still further impact. Though Deputies Cogan and Lehane may try to claim credit for arresting that impact that is not the case. It was the arrival of Dick Barry and Mark Deering into Dáil Éireann that provided the real reason why the design to further bludgeon the agricultural community was blunted.

Are you trying to prevent it?

Do not tell me you are trying to make capital for yourself again. The position is that Deputy Cogan who cynically says: "Are you trying to prevent it?" is the very person who could have prevented the impact of the increase on tea, butter, bread, sugar and all the other essential foodstuffs. The impact in connection with those is felt not only generally but specifically by the class he purports to represent and even more specifically by the class that is keeping him in residence here.

While asking the farmer to pay more for the things he requires and to produce more of the things we require, the Minister for Agriculture voluntarily increases the price of fertilisers beyond the normal capacity of any farmer to pay. At the same time that the Government is calling for increased production the farmer is bearing the impact of the Government's own actions. Credit facilities are no longer available to give the farmer the necessary stimulus to produce more. If the farmer wants to produce more he must first of all improve the heart and quality of his land. The previous Ministerfor Agriculture initiated the ground limestone scheme. The present Minister has developed that scheme and lime is being made available more abundantly to-day. I would be grateful for the Minister's co-operation in ensuring that the outlying districts of my constituency, such as the Goleen Peninsula and the Beara Peninsula and Kilcroghane, have ground limestone readily available to them since the sea sand subsidy is coming to an end.

The sea sand subsidy has not come to an end yet.

It will come to an end. If the sea sand scheme is abandoned I want the Minister to ensure that it will be counteracted by making ground limestone readily available in the outlying districts of West Cork at the normal price.

As I said earlier, where you have a drive by the Government for increased production on the farm it must be accompalined by an earnest of the Government's good will, and if our economy wants to be strengthened, as the Government say it does, then the main source from which that strength must flow is the land. Therefore, I say without hesitation that it is into the land that there must flow rapidly and readily all the fertiliser, all the improvement in methods, whether by mechanical aid or otherwise, and all improvement possible in the quality of our seeds that can be made available. Fertiliser must be put within reach of every farmer no matter how difficult the question of credit may be. I want to say to the Minister, in a deliberate way, that it would be far better for the quality, strength and usefulness of this fertiliser if it were to find its way into Irish land than be depreciating in congealed masses in stores, due to the fact that the price of it is prohibitive. I have said to the Minister before, and I mean it, that it would be far better for the Government to write off as a dead loss all the fertiliser that they have now, virtually in a solidified form in stores, and to distribute it as a Government gesture to farmers so thatit might rot in the land rather than in these stores.

Mr. Walsh

Where is the fertiliser?

This is the fertiliser that was bought by Deputy Dillon at £9 per ton, and which the Minister has endeavoured to sell at £14 10s.

Mr. Walsh

Where is the fertiliser?

I understand that a good deal of it was surreptitiously wafted into the control of commercial agencies which may be deemed favourable in their outlook to the present Government.

Mr. Walsh

So that the congealed stuff, which is worthless, was handed over to them?

I suggest it would be far better if it had been distributed and allowed to rot in the land than be allowed to become a useless commodity in the stores.

Where is it?

In the four sugar factories.

It is in places other than the sugar factories.

Mr. Walsh

It is not the select people then?

The Minister has been urged by many of his own people, and has been repeatedly urged by Deputies on this side, to deal with what is the main difficulty that is holding up progress, namely, that credit facilities are not being readily made available to the farmers to enable them to improve the quality of their land. I know that the Minister has a difficult corner to fight in the Cabinet when it comes to a fight for his own Department. If, however, we are in earnest about production, I would say, without hesitation, that every £1,000,000 poured out in aid, by way of fertiliser, machinery or in an improvement in the quality of our seeds, for the land, will give an infinitely better return than millions invested in funds, whether they be in liquid or other form, since the ultimatebenefit of such investment is going to be felt by some other country.

The Minister is in a strong position to follow the line of policy I suggest, especially in view of the fact that we have this problem of the flight from the land. At times, when talking on this, we use fluent and imaginative language, but the Minister is perfectly well aware that there is that drift from the land. We have even reached the stage where a difficulty is being experienced, in the case of some small holdings in my area, of getting the eldest son who is entitled to the farm to remain at home and take it over.

I am not attempting to push the responsibility for that on to the shoulders of the Minister. Anyone, however, acquainted with conditions in rural Ireland will understand the difficulties. There may be commitments in regard to sisters, and so on, and these may not make the taking over of a holding terribly attractive to the eldest son. That situation represents a significant change from the fierce burning ambition that was so much in evidence in previous generations of holding on to and having land. It is that kind of change that must inevitably make any Government and any responsible person anxious about the future of agriculture pause and try to find a way to ameliorate conditions to such an extent that this tendency can not only be arrested but completely killed.

In my opinion, that can be done by ensuring, as quickly as possible, that all the normal social amenities will be introduced into every home throughout the length and breadth of the country, the farmer's home and the farm worker's home. I am urging the Minister to use his influence to ensure that all normal social adjuncts, such as electricity and other aids to the domestic situation in rural Ireland will be pressed for earnestly and constantly by his Department. I say that because the contrast that exists at the moment between the cities and the country is not operating to the betterment of rural Ireland. It is our duty sometimes to look around at other countries and take a lesson from them that can be rapidly learned.

In agricultural economy we can take many lessons from the lowlands of Europe. One who pays even a casual visit to Denmark or parts of Belgium will find the design and plan there has always been to make the home conditions and the facilities in the homes of the farmers comparable with those of the very best in the land.

I am not for one moment suggesting that that would not be the wish of the present Minister. Anybody sincerely interested in the development of agriculture would wish to see the farming community and farm labourers housed as worthily as this State could house them. When we talk about agriculture in this country we are inclined at times to forget that there is a great deal of drudgery, isolation, lack of social contact that must be as effectively dealt with as actual cultivation of the land. Undoubtedly, a better response and a better effort will be obtained from the farming community as a whole when they feel that the Government are sufficiently interested in them and their particular contribution to our economy to ensure improvements in their normal welfare and domestic conditions.

The scheme that was introduced to enable water to be brought into the dwelling-houses was excellent and the Minister is to be congratulated on continuing that scheme and extending its scope during his régime. The inherent good in that scheme should be sufficient to commend its enlargement to the Minister. Where difficulties of terrain and availability of water arise it should be possible to make more substantial grants available so as to ensure that every farmer will have running water in his home.

My view is that we have never been bold enough in our schemes. Where principles are sound, courage rather than finance should be the keynote of the scheme. It has always been my belief that investment honestly made in Irish land and the homes of Irish farmers will reap the richest reward that any investment can reap in this country.

I urge the Minister to try to keep a keen balance between the price of various cereals grown in this countryand the cost of production. It is the duty of the Department, no matter how they may try to offset it, to ensure that the farmer, who, in carrying out a general directive of the Department of Agriculture, gives time, labour, effort and care to the production of a crop, should be assured of some return for that effort in the ultimate disposal of the crop. In present circumstances, no matter how difficult it might be, the Minister and his Department, having considered the cost of production of oats and barley and the difficulties that may arise in disposal, owing to a slump, particularly in the poultry industry, should consider putting a floor under the price of these particular cereals. I am not saying that price fixation as a permanent policy is wholly commendable but, having regard to the experience of price fluctuation and of the degree of exploitation that barley growers suffered last year, the Minister should at least ensure that there will be a floor under the price of these commodities.

I am glad that the Minister has announced an increase in the price for wheat. I hear airy accusations going around this House about there being something synonomous in anti-wheat and Fine Gael. I have always been a very strong advocate of wheat growing in parts of the country but I have always felt, and still feel, that encouragement and price stimulant is an infinitely better way to get results than compulsion. When the Minister talks of area under tillage, as he sometimes does in this House, it would be a good thing if he took the other side of the ledger and dealt with yields because the amazing fact emerged, in a year when the Minister stipulated that we cut tillage by a very large acreage, that the actual yield from the reduced acreage far exceeded the yield that was got, under compulsion, from debilitated land that was unfit and unsuited for wheat-growing.

Mr. Walsh

In the years 1946 and 1947.

The situation with regard to wheat presents one difficulty.I would be glad to hear from the Minister what progress has been made by his Department in the matter of combating pest in wheat which has become prevalent, unfortunately, in recent years. I would be glad to know how far experimentation has got in ensuring the minimum effect of the impact of midge. I say that to the Minister. not in a spirit of criticism, but hoping that he may be able to allay unrest that may be growing in the minds of certain farmers about this particular pest. I do not want farmers to go out of wheat production on the basis of that type of uncertainty when I feel sure that the Department would be able to give aid and assistance to offset the impact of midge. The Minister must be vigorous in his campaign to offset any apathy that the occurrence of this pest may have created. If we can use the price stimulant in regard to wheat there must be a basis on which to found a price level.

Mr. Walsh

It is all there but you did not utilise it.

I feel that the Minister should not go beyond putting a floor to prices because I think the normal law of supply and demand will operate to get a reasonable price level for the producer. I am strongly inclined to the view that the farmer who produces more and more of his own feeding stuffs and feeds them to live stock is getting the best price of all for his cereals in the ultimate disposal of the live stock. But, where cash crops are produced, the Minister should face up to the possibility of ensuring no more than this, that the producer genuinely producing a good quality article will not suffer any loss. If we want the farmer to produce more oats, barley, wheat and grass, whether grass for feeding, grass for hay, or grass for ultimate ensilage, and if the Government are in earnest about that, the farmer must have all the facilities he needs with regard to artificial fertilisers. If it is necessary for the Government to introduce some credit scheme to enable the farmer to get all the fertilisers he needs, I urge theMinister to do it because I think the ultimate increase in production and the strengthening of the economy will more than offset what might be levied by way of interest. The Minister can be assured that there is one voice in this House that will never be afraid to support such a project, and that is mine.

I feel that the Department has already done an excellent job, but it should constantly keep the farmer alive to the importance of seeds and of better quality cereals. Possibly the time has come for the Minister to do a little bit of investigation in regard to the distribution of seeds and certain seed monopolies which exist. It is necessary for the Minister, who is the custodian of the farmers' rights, to ensure that as much as can legitimately be given by way of profit to the producer goes to him before anybody else.

The Minister should continue, as he is doing, boosting his ground limestone scheme. The Department, both under Deputy Dillon and now under the present Minister, has done a worth-while job in impressing the usefulness of lime on farmers generally.

Mr. Walsh

You should give credit to the Minister who introduced it.

I gave credit to whoever did it.

Mr. Walsh

You did not.

If Deputy Smith introduced the ground limestone scheme and the credit is due to him, he can have it. If there is credit due to anyone for the gradual development of the use of lime on Irish land, far be it for me to deny it. Leaving tillage in the situation that with a certain stimulation the desired results can be got, we come to the vexed problem of milk. I am quite sure that before I am finished with my dissertation on milk we will have Deputy Cunningham saying something about propaganda.

Mr. Walsh

And the increase in the price of butter.

I have always approached the milk question in a two-prongedway. It is interesting for any Deputy who is anxious for research to look up my observations on this problem even when Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture.

Mr. Walsh

What about the vote?

You will find no inconsistency in my arguments. I believe that the first problem we have to tackle in connection with milk is whether or not there is such a thing as a dual purpose cow. If there is such a thing as a dual purpose cow, we have to deal with the Minister's problem of replacing all the uneconomic cows, because this country suffers where milk is concerned, leaving out the specialist herds, in the main from an uneconomic cow. If price alone were the answer to the problem it would not be as difficult as it is at present, because we must of necessity balance what the consumer pays for the finished product against the costs of production and what reasonable profit should be given to the producer. To make milk economic at present might involve a staggering price increase, whereas a reasonable increase in the lactation of a cow even at the present price of milk might rapidly tend to make it fully economic.

Therefore, when we are dealing with the matter of milk I want to put a few questions to the Minister. First of all, I want to ask whether he is satisfied that there is such a thing as a dual purpose cow. If he is satisfied that there is, can he indicate to the House what is the percentage of uneconomic cows in the country and, for the purpose of ultimate price fixation, what does he deem to be the reasonable average lactation to expect from a cow? Will the Minister also indicate to the House, and through the House to the farmers, how it is proposed to replace uneconomic cows by economic cows?

I should like to get a general picture from the Minister as to the success or otherwise of the Department's insemination plan, whether ther Department's efforts to make available as many high quality milk strain bulls as possible to the agricultural community have been a success.

If the Minister is convinced that the dual purpose strain exists he could indicate to us the plans his Department have for generally improving the old standard of herds throughout the country. On the issue of price, we are anxious to know from the Minister if he has conceived any plan either for the milk products or by-products earning very substantial profits to be used as a subvention in aid to keep down the price of butter to the consumer, at the same time ensuring a reasonable price for milk to the producer. I want to know from the Minister whether his Department have plans to extend the uses of milk into lines other than butter and whether the Department have plans to bring the profits so earned back into an essential fund to boost the overall price of milk in the country without having to impose increased costs on the consumer.

I am anxious to know from the Minister in relation to milk whether there is any reality in expectations of a report of the Costings Commission; whether there is any real hope that we will arrive at an analysis of costs that will enable us to arrive at a reasonable price, because the general activity of this commission since it has been set up and—should one say—the tardiness of the Minister in reference thereto, and the veil of secrecy——

Mr. Walsh

That is an independent body.

——enshrouding their activities has not led to any great confidence in milk producing areas that it will bear much fruit.

Mr. Walsh

The milk producers have a majority on the board.

The last observation I had from the Minister was that he was going to have two reports, one from one section and one from another and that there was—shall we say—an unbridgeable chasm between the two points of view. With regard to milk and butter production I am anxious to know from the Minister what he considers would be a reasonable consumption of butter for the Irish people and what he thinks should be a reasonableprice to ask the consumer to pay for butter, because we have had the infamous situation arising here that people have tried to divide country from town by making irresponsible statements about the price of milk in country districts and pointed criticism of the farmers in town districts because of the price of butter. We have got to get the facts with regard to the economic value or otherwise of butter production clearly laid out for analysis by all sections of the people. The Minister is as well aware as I am that unless there is a substantial increase in the price of milk as at present produced, it is not going to be an economic proposition, and the Minister will have to tell the House if that situation arises, in what way he is going to ensure butter at a reasonable price for the people and what alternative uses he will make of milk to ensure an adequate price is paid to the producer. It is a big problem and I am not putting it to the Minister as an easy one.

Mr. Walsh

What is a reasonable price for butter, anyway?

All I can say is, that 4/2 is not a reasonable price to the consumer, and it is not even reasonable to the producer because it does not get him a return for his milk.

Mr. Walsh

It was 3/6, 30 years ago.

I was not eating much butter then. One must not talk as the Minister is talking, of 30 years ago. We are not in that situation now. I think the Minister will agree that there are readily available tremendous quantities of butter, and that we could not compete in a normal butter market to-day with our butter prices. I think the situation is not quite analogous to that of 30 years ago on that basis.

Mr. Walsh

I have only given you the price it was then.

I know, but one must relate the price to the circumstances, and the circumstances that exist to-day are that, no matter what the root cause of it may be, the price for milkpaid in the creameries is not a remunerative price to the producer. The cause may not be, as I said initially, fundamentally laid at the Minister's door or may be not even a matter of price at all. It may be in the quality, strain or yield of the cows. I am prepared to concede that to the Minister, but what I am anxious to do— and believe me anxious to help in doing—is to find some way to equate all the problems of the dairying industry and arrive at a solutation, because I think the Minister will agree with me that the dairying industry is the foundation of our whole live-stock economy, and that in the ultimate analysis it is on our milch cows that even the highly valuable and successful trade depends. If we cannot get the keystone and foundation-block of our agricultural economy sound in its reality we are going to run into tremendous difficulty in the pursuance of our present agricultural economy. When I say that I am anxious to help in the problem I am in earnest, because I am not suggesting that this problem is capable of solution by waving a wand or by some administrative act ; but I do think that the time has come for the Minister and his Department to tell us with their 30 years' experience of the operation of control as it has been operated whether they think first of all that the dual purpose cow has proved a success, secondly, what they can do to improve the milk yields of the dairy Shorthorns, and, thirdly, the general overall plan of disposal of milk and milk by-products and the utilisation of whatever profit can be gleaned from that type of trade to the subsidisation of milk prices generally to the milk producer.

This is a problem that gives me considerable trouble. I represent a very big milk-producing area. We have got some of the finest creameries in the country in my area. We are producing a quality of butter that I think the Minister will admit ranks excellent anywhere, and it is not easy for a person who is sincere about the development of his own country to be constantly in the position of meeting dairy farmers who put their case toyou, going into provincial towns and villages in the constituency, where you feel in the actual circumstances of the present that the price of butter is a severe strain on those living on the side of the street. There is an important real problem to be grappled with there, and to the solution of that problem we will have to bring all the good-will and all the co-operation that we can find here among people representing various interests. I do not think that this problem is one that should be the gambit of political advantage. I am saying that seriously because I think the problem is of such a major nature and is fundamentally so basic to our very agricultural industry that we must face up to it as rapidly as possible. Where the equilibrium lies I do not know, and I candidly admit that, but I do say to the Minister in all earnestness that he should direct his mind irrespective of what commissions may be sitting to what are the root causes of decay in dairying and what are the true causes of the complaints about the uneconomic facet of dairying.

I am anxious to know from the Minister, taking the situation generally, what is the position with regard to the position of the carcase meat trade. We have heard much criticism in this House—I have heard many of my colleagues being very pointed in their criticism—in relation to hides and the price of hides and hide rings. Whether there happen to be hide rings or not or what kind of rings they are, I am not sure, but I am anxious to know from the Minister, taking into consideration the development of the investment that has been in meat factories, what his prognosis of the future might be, particularly in view of the fact that the future might find ourselves in an open as distinct from a protected market. I am as anxious as the Minister is to see that all facets of our beef trade remain strongly remunerative to the Irish farmer, but I do think that the difficulties experienced by the carcase meat trade, the difficulties experienced by these meat factories, warrant the Minister reviewing the situation and possibly giving the benefit of his guidance through technical advice tothe people at present engaged in the trade or those contemplating development in it.

I think the effort at expansion of our pig and bacon industry has proved its worth. I am glad to see throughout all parts of this country the homely old sow becoming more and more evident, and I think that time should prove conclusively that we can produce and balance effectively in this country proper and adequate feed for pigs. No matter what controversy may have arisen about maize and its qualities I feel that the development at home here in this country of the intelligent use of balanced feed growable at home is a very welcome feature of our present pig industry, and I think that the Minister might pursue the line of driving home even more forcibly to the Irish farmer that he can grow here at home and balance from the cereals grown at home a ration that will finish his pig as well as any foodstuffs grown anywhere in the country. I am glad to see that for the present anyway this particular facet of our agricultural economy shows great potentiality. It has been a great relief in some ways to the strain that has been thrown on small farmers where poultry was a problem. Fortunately, a good many of them have a limited number of sows or were fairly substantially in pigs, so that I do not want to distort the problem out of its reality. I want the Minister when dealing with it to realise that nobody appreciates more readily than I do that you cannot take the economy of a holding and break it down into each individual facet and expect each facet to pay, but I do think that the Minister will have to give a lead and an explanation where the poultry industry is concerned.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; the Committee to sit again.
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