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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Nov 1953

Vol. 143 No. 6

Imposition of Duties (Confirmation of Orders) (No. 2) Bill, 1953—Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The purpose of this Bill, as set out in the explanatory memorandum circulated to Deputies, is to confirm 11 Orders made by the Government under the Emergency (Imposition of Duties) Act, 1942. These Orders cover iron and steel mesh netting, iron and steel wire, bars and sections, single cotton yarns, handbags,purses, pouches, etc., spectacle frames, sheet and plate glass, asbestos cement goods, tableware, electric wire and cable, glass-packed sterile liquids and toilet paper. Five of the duties are new duties. Three Orders effected an extension of the scope of existing duties, and three provided for alteration in the rates of duty prescribed under existing Orders.

The first two Orders mentioned, Orders Nos. 307 and 308, may be taken together. These Orders impose a duty of 37½ per cent. full and 25 per cent. preferential ad valoremon certain iron and steel wire, wire netting and barbed wire. It made a number of minor amendments in the definitions in the duty upon bars, rods and sections, such as are made by Irish Steel Limited, Haulbowline. The principal changes are, of course, the imposition of new duties upon wire netting and barbed wire. These are now being manufactured in a new factory which was established and commenced operations this year in County Dublin. We estimate that the internal market for these goods is valued at about £400,000, and it is, of course, the aim of the producers here to supply the whole of that market. At present they are employing about 140 people, but that employment will, it is expected, increase to around 200 at an early date. The prices at which these goods are being sold here are competitive with prices in Great Britain. It must be recognised, however, that in respect of these goods, continental prices are lower than British prices. In so far as I have expressed the view that it is a fair test of the efficiency of any Irish industry that it should produce goods at the same price as those goods are sold in Great Britain, this factory answers the test.

A price understanding has been entered into which calls for a review of prices whenever the price of the raw material—that is wire rod—changes. At the present time the steel market is very confused and there is even evidence to suggest that on occasions the manufactured steel products, such as bright steel wire, can be purchased at a lower price than the price of the steel rod from which the wire is made.We have the position of this concern under consideration in so far as the application of our price understanding is involved. For the bulk of the products concerned — galvanised wire, barbed wire and wire netting—the evidence available to me is that their prices are lower than the British prices. Of course their prices depend entirely, or almost entirely, upon the price of wire rod and they will, therefore, fluctuate with that price.

Order No. 309 relates to single cotton yarns. These yarns were subject to quota on importation here. Previously this single cotton yarn had been included in the liberalised list supplied to O.E.E.C. and when the matter came for consideration by the Council of O.E.E.C. they decided we were justified in suspending the liberalisation in respect of single cotton yarns up to July of this year. Under our O.E.E.C. obligation, it became necessary to revoke the quota Order in July and to substitute for it a customs duty. The duty in force is 50 per cent. full and 33? per cent. ad valorem.There are four firms now engaged in the production of single cotton yarn and they are employing, we understand, upon that operation, approximately 560 people. Our estimate of the requirements of the home market is about 6,000,000 lb. weight. The production of the existing firms for the six months period to the end of September was about 2,000,000 lb. weight. There capacity is about 4,750,000 lb. weight. There is, therefore, room for further extension in that industry and I understand that some of the existing firms are proposing to enlarge their capacity.

At present the prices of their yarns per lb. are slightly higher than British prices. I expect that situation will be rectified when full production has been attained. There is no reason that I know of why cotton yarn produced in an efficient spinning plant here should be any dearer than cotton yarn produced in England.

Order No. 310 was made to amend the existing duty upon leather handbags by extending the scope of the duty to cover those articles when made from artificial plastic materials andalso to bring within its scope certain trunks, suitcases, travel bags and similar articles.

The old duty was a flat rate of 40 per cent. but under the trade agreement with Britain, when any change is made in an existing duty a preferential rate has to be established and, therefore, the duty will in future operate at the rate of 60 per cent. full and 40 per cent. preferential.

Some 520 persons are, I understand, at present employed in the manufacture of all types of leather and imitation leather goods and the information available to me establishes that the prices at which these handbags are sold here are fully competitive with prices in England and apparently there is no need for anxiety on that score.

Order 311 relates to spectacle frames. Spectacle frames and parts of spectacle frames were liable to import duty previously if made of any material other than metal. The effect of the amendment is to bring metal frames within the scope of the duty. This is not a very big industry. There are three firms engaged in it. They employ on this work about 33 people. So far as prices are concerned there is an almost endless range of spectacle frames and it would be impracticable to make absolute comparison in detail between Irish prices and the prices of imported frames but, so far as we have been able to ascertain, prices here are as low as and in some cases lower than prices prevailing in Great Britain. It may be asked, therefore, why an import duty is required. I think the answer is that there is a certain amount of prejudice in favour of well-established British products and, as the frame is such a small part in the ultimate cost of a pair of spectacles, that an advantage in price does not secure business for the Irish firms.

The next Order, 312, which relates to sheet and plate glass, raises some issues of a different kind. May I say that the Order applies to plate glass only, because the Revenue Commissioners cannot undertake to distinguish between sheet glass and plate glass in the administration of the duty but, in fact, all requirements ofplate glass are allowed in duty free? The existing duty, which was not an ad valoremduty, but a fixed amount per cwt. on sheet glass, was fixed following a review of the position under the terms of the Anglo-Irish Agreement made in 1938 by the Prices Commission of that day which was then established as the reviewing body recognised under that agreement. The duty was fixed on the recommendation of that commission following the review. Duty at the rate of £1 full and 13/4 preferential per cwt. was established. With the alteration in values, subsequent to the war, these fixed rates of duties became less protective in their effect and, although the trade agreement made with Britain in 1938 did not, on its face, provide for a review following a review of a duty, nevertheless, the British authorities, when the matter was taken up with them, agreed that there should be another review of this duty. That review was carried out by the Industrial Development Authority, which is now the reviewing authority under the agreement, and the higher rates of duty which are now operative, 33/- full and 22/- preferential per cwt., are those which were recommended by the Industrial Development Authority following that review during which representations of the British manufacturers were received.

It was, however, recognised by the Industrial Development Authority that the effect of the higher rate of duty will be a higher price here and that the need for a higher rate of duty was the fact that under the situation existing previously the manufacture of sheet glass here was involving the manufacturers in a loss and that only if a higher price could be secured—and that could not be made effective unless the duty was increased—could they continue in operation. The manufacturers here, in fact, have been getting only about two-thirds of the home market notwithstanding the duty in force and it is hoped that if, as a result of the increase in duty they get the full home market, a reduction in their costs and, consequently, in their prices may be achieved.

The review in this case raised some interesting points. The trade agreement made with Britain in 1938 and still in force provides, in Article 8, that, on review, duties should be fixed at a level which provides British manufacturers with full opportunity of reasonable competition. In their report to me the Industrial Development Authority pointed out, however, that in Britain, so far as this industry is concerned, "reasonable competition" had meant the elimination of all competition, that there was only one producer who survived competition in Great Britain and who now has, apparently, a monopoly position in that country. They argued that in so far as competition might be assumed to be likely to have the same effect here that they could not accept as reasonable a type of competition which had produced that result in Great Britain, and particularly having regard to another provision of the trade agreement which requires that the Irish producer must be afforded adequate protection having regard to the relative costs of efficient and economical production and taking into account the requirements of a newly established industry. The review of the position carried out by the Industrial Development Authority established that having regard to all the circumstances production here was as efficient as it could be and as economical as it was possible for the firm concerned to make it. That firm has, however, certain higher costs which producers in Britain do not have to bear. These higher costs arise primarily under the head of raw materials, but also under the headings of wages, power, light, fuel and water. The relatively small size of the plant here as compared with the corresponding plant in Great Britain was also taken into account, although it was not suggested even by representatives of the British firm that the plant here was any smaller than plants normally operated in other countries or less economical because of its size than similar plants elsewhere.

The Industrial Development Authority said that if there was a price of sheet glass brought about bythe free interplay of the forces of supply and demand, then they would regard that price as being an economic price, but in the circumstances prevailing in Britain they could not take the British price as being representative, and they reported that they had ascertained that in other countries where conditions were more similar to those existing here the price was higher than in Britain. The effect, therefore, of the higher duty was to permit manufacturers here to raise their price from 100/- to 120/- per case. That is a situation which it was recognised would result from the alteration of the duty. It represents an addition of £1 to the cost of construction of the average house. On the other hand, the report made it quite clear that unless that higher price could be secured the manufacture of sheet glass in this country could not be carried on, and as that manufacture is linked in with other glass industries here it is important to preserve it apart altogether from the employment aspect.

Order No. 313 altered the rate of duty applying to articles made of asbestos and used for building purposes. The effect of the Order was to substitute an ad valoremfor a flat rate of duty. These goods are made, as the House is probably aware, in a factory in Athy, County Kildare, where there are 340 people at present employed. There was every evidence that before the duty, which had been suspended, came back into operation the prices of their products were fully competitive with continental prices; and there has been no change in their prices since, and information available to us is that they are still able to produce and sell here at prices as low as those prevailing anywhere else in Europe.

Order No. 314 may require some more elaborate explanation. That is the Order which increases the customs duty upon delf and china tableware. That Order received some publicity in the Press after it was made, and it may be no harm to explain a little more fully why it was considered to be necessary. The effective duties upon imported delf tableware in the pastwere the fixed duties of 6d. full, 4d. preferential per article so far as tableware was concerned, and 1/3 full and 10d. preferential so far as teapots and coffee pots were concerned. These fixed duties were brought into operation before the war and, again, with the alteration in the value of money their protective effect had declined considerably since the war as the general level of prices of tableware has increased by something over 200 per cent. during that period. Apart from the desire to maintain protection at much the same rate as it operated previously there was evidence that despite the fact that all our information was that delf tableware produced here was competitive in price and at least as good in quality as British tableware exported to this country, nevertheless there was a continuing import of tableware of fairly substantial dimensions, mainly tableware for hotels. The hotel trade had not been captured by the Irish producers, and it was hoped that by an alteration of the rate of duty that situation would be changed. Some disemployment had emerged in the industry which was not rectified until the increased duty came into operation.

Apart from the position in relation to the manufacturers of delf tableware, a new concern for the manufacture of chinaware has been established in Galway. That concern is now only going into production. The factory, I understand, is building, and in the meantime operatives are being trained upon imported unglazed and undecorated ware. It will not be until next year that the full process of manufacture will be carried on there, but having regard to the imperishable nature of the commodities involved it was thought desirable to bring the duty into operation as soon as it became known that such a factory was going to be established because otherwise the market could easily be saturated with imports, which would prejudice the prospects of success of the new undertaking for a long time.

The Hardware and Allied Trades Association, the organisation representing retail traders handling thesegoods, came to my Department to make representations regarding this duty and after full consideration of their representations I decided to grant a certain easement. Deputy Cosgrave asked me a question regarding this matter some time ago and I told him that it was under consideration. As a result of that consideration it has been decided to allow duty-free imports for a period up to the end of March next, and subject to review then, on the basis of one complete set for each complete set ordered from Irish manufacturers. In the case of delf tableware that import licence will operate in respect of sets between 39/4 and 71/5 per set. In other words, it is the higher grade of delf tableware that may be imported, and licences for other articles caught by the duty will be issued on the same basis, a one-for-one basis, but again confined to articles within the higher grades of quality. The main manufacturers of delf tableware here have up to the present concentrated upon the cheaper qualities, which represent the bulk of their output, and it is only in the last few months or so that they have extended their operations into the higher qualities of delf tableware. So far as the Galway factory is concerned——

Might I ask the Minister a question regarding the Galway factory? With regard to items produced there, whether they are of high quality or not, will the cost of producing the articles in Galway be greater than it would be to import the commodity?

It is not anticipated that it will. So far as I know the expectations of those responsible for the management of the factory, they hope to be able to produce this chinaware at a price completely competitive with English prices.

What is the need for protection so?

That question could be asked in relation to a number of commodities. The main consideration thatwill operate in the minds of traders will be the desire for variety and, of course, when we protect goods of that character here, we do limit the variety available to traders. The aim must be to ensure that Irish manufacturers will produce in sufficient variety to make competitive trade possible, but the advantage of having an exclusive design, which no other trader can get and which can be obtained if imports are possible, is considerable. It is in recognition of that desire that this arrangement I mentioned was made. In the case of china, the same arrangement applies as in the case of delfware. A duty-free import licence will be given for one set of chinaware for every set ordered from the Galway concern. In that case the condition is that the imported set must exceed 73/4 in value. In the case of china of a value of more than 120/- per set, a duty-free licence will be given for all sets in that category. I think these arrangements meet the case made by the Hardware and Allied Traders' Association. In any event, the operation of this arrnagement can be reviewed in March next in the light of the effect on the trade here.

Mr. A. Byrne

Will the Minister say if he is satisfied that the home manufacturers are doing their best to ensure that there will be a sufficient output of cheap delfware for people in Dublin?

So far as the Arklow company are concerned, they can produce the cheaper types of delf tableware at prices completely competitive with British prices, and all quantities required for the Irish market.

Is there any difficulty in the way of the Irish manufacturers producing high-class ware at competitive prices?

The really expensive type of chinaware will not be produced here at all and a duty-free licence will be given in the case of sets the value of which exceeds 120/- each. The Arklow concern is dealing with delf only. Even though they are now extending their production to the higher types of delf products, they will not be dealing withchina products at all. The Galway concern will be dealing only with the cheaper type of china sets.

The complaint is that the Irish manufacturer, after all these years, is not able to give us anything comparable to the imported sets.

In quality?

I should like to see that subjected to an impartial test because any examination I made convinced me that the Irish manufactured articles are superior in quality.

And at a similar price to articles produced elsewhere?

At a similar price. I understand the company is now planning the development of an export trade and if they succeed in doing that, they will have established that my praise of them is justified.

Mr. A. Byrne

Ordinary tableware, such as that used in the working-class homes, is, so far as I can see, very scarce at the moment.

Arklow pottery is being sold as cheaply as pottery which could be imported and there are unlimited supplies of it. In fact one of the problems facing the Arklow company was that their stocks were running too high for a period.

Is the Minister satisfied that, so far as the middle-class stuff or the high-class stuff is concerned, the Irish manufacturers are doing as well as they might?

Up to the present the main producers of tableware were the Arklow Pottery Company. They were chiefly concerned with the cheap type of pottery. It was only this year that they started to produce a higher type of delf pottery but the cheaper kinds still represent the bulk of their output. So far as the new china factory in Galway is concerned, it is not built yet. Operations are being carried on in temporary premises and mainly for the purpose of training staffs. Theirintention, as I understand it, is to produce the cheaper type of china, not the more exclusive type.

There are certain types of tableware being produced by Irish manufacturers which do not compare very well with the types formerly imported.

I must say that any test I have been able to apply to the quality of the product seemed to demonstrate that the quality was excellent. In fact, I might say the only complaint I got that was ever substantiated was the old one, that the varieties of design were not numerous enough, and the company's reply to that was that they could vary their designs ad infinitumand that they have over 200 different designs available.

The complaint is that the Irish-produced tableware is not able to stand up to the imported article.

I do not think that can be justified because, so far as I know, the equipment installed in Arklow is as modern as any in Europe.

I am glad to hear that.

Order No. 315 deals with electric wire and cable. The principal effect of the Order was to extend the duty which previously applied to rubber-covered cable, to plastic-covered cable. We took advantage of it to correct a system of evasion which had grown up under which lengths of flex with a plug attached escaped duty. We have now applied the duty to lengths of flex with plug attached in order to stop that. The main purpose of the Order is to bring within the scope of the duty plastic-covered cable which is now being produced by a couple of firms here and which is likely to replace rubber-covered cable to a greater extent in future.

The next Order, No. 316, represents another interesting development. It applies a duty of 50 per cent. full or 33? per cent. preferential, or minimum rates of 15/- full or 10/- preferential per 100, to containers of sterile liquids used for injection purposes.

Are these medicinal?

They are injection solutions, excluding a number of named solutions but covering a number of these injection solutions which are being produced by a firm in Roscrea. That firm is producing injection solutions of as high a standard quality as any of the imported makes and at prices which are in many cases lower than British prices. It is, in fact, exporting them also but it has not been able to establish itself firmly enough on the home market. I am afraid that the explanation of that is that a very large number of our wholesale chemists have connections with British manufacturers. In consequence, it was necessary to impose the duty even though the quality of the injection solutions produced here is very high and the prices are frequently lower than the British prices, in order that the firm may establish itself on the home market and develop an export trade which is its main objective. It is a very competent firm and got a very laudatory report from certain American technicians who came over here on an industrial survey. I think it is very desirable to encourage them to develop this important business in which they are engaged.

The final Order, No. 317, had the effect of extending the customs duty on toilet paper made up in rolls to toilet paper made up in packets.

In so far as this Bill is necessary to give protection to firms manufacturing here, I think it will have general assent. We have always supported the principle of giving protection where necessary. However, there are a few matters I should like to bring to the Minister's attention. Last year, the Minister, when he was replying on the Second Stage of the Imposition of Duties Bill, as reported in the Dáil Debates, Volume 134, column 1718, referred to the fact that:

"The Department of Industry and Commerce is at present engaged in a systematic review of all industries and on the basis of these reviews decisions are being taken as to the action which the industries concerned should be required to takein order to secure better results than they appear to be getting at the present time."

I would be glad to know from the Minister what results have accrued from that review, what particular industries were subjected to examination, whether the results will be published, and what conclusions have been arrived at as a result of the investigations carried out.

It is not possible on a measure of this sort to discuss general matters. Usually when a Bill of this sort comes before the House specific cases are under review. But the reply which the Minister gave on that occasion referred to a general review and, as just 12 months have elapsed since that statement was made, I think that, in the public interest, the House would welcome any information which the Minister may have in his possession or any facts which have come to light.

The only specific Order to which I want to direct attention is that dealing with tableware, No. 314. The Minister referred to the fact that he had received representations from the hardware trade on this matter and that he had made certain modifications in the Order. As I understand it, the position is, to some extent, as the Minister described it and, to some extent, as Deputy Hickey described it. I have seen articles manufactured here which were of the highest quality and I have seen other articles manufactured here which did not measure up to that description.

One of the complaints of traders is it is not possible to get the variety which is available for manufacturers elsewhere. While we may have sympathy with them in that regard, the fact that the market here is much smaller than that which is available to manufacturers in Great Britain must inevitably place a bigger onus on our manufacturers and must operate against having articles available in sufficient variety or sufficiently varied quantities.

The other complaint which traders make, and which I think has more substance, is that they cannot, in some cases, get replacements. If people buytea-sets and an article gets broken, they do not want to have to buy a new set, they want to get a replacement. In some cases that is possible, but in other cases it is not. I think that where protection is afforded there is an obligation on home manufacturers to provide replacements. A person should not be obliged to buy a whole new tea-set if he wants to replace a broken cup or jug. Or, on the other hand, be forced to go without the particular article which has been broken.

As to some of the articles manufactured here, it may be that the articles I was shown were particularly bad cases, but some of them were a long way below what one would regard as an acceptable standard. On the other hand, the traders concerned made it quite clear that other articles being produced here were first-class and could compete with, and, in some cases, were superior to articles manufactured elsewhere. The principal complaint, however, from the traders was the lack of variety and the difficulty of getting replacements of the same pattern where articles were broken.

I am glad to know from what the Minister said that the proposed arrangement will allow of certain imports up to March next. I gather from the trade concerned that, although the concession is an improvement, there is still a difficulty with regard to selectivity in the case of some high-class articles. I know that for articles costing £5 or £6 they can get a licence to import them, but I suggest that the Minister should take up with the manufacturers the question of making available as far as possible a wide variety of patterns as well as having replacements available when required.

The Minister referred to the fact that the Galway company is not yet in production and that it is only doing decorative work. Some of the articles shown to me certainly had very little decoration on them. Whether it is justifiable in the circumstances to place, as this Order virtually does, an embargo on the import of certain commodities is probably open to question. If, on the other hand, the firm is expected to get into production in thenear future, with the experience we have had of excessive imports in anticipation of a duty on many occasions, there is probably justification for forestalling them by giving protection in this case. In the past there were many examples of excessive imports in anticipation of subsequent protection. On the other hand, there were cases where duties were imposed and, because of delay in production from home sources, the people were obliged to go without supplies.

I understand that the hardware trade feel that, because of this duty, there will not be available to them the variety of patterns which they feel are necessary, particularly in order to deal with the Christmas trade. Many people give presents of tea or coffeesets, either of china or delf, at this particular time of the year, and traders are expected to have varieties in stock. I understand from some representations that have been made, that they are apprehensive that the varieties expected will not be available. Although the modifications outlined in a recent letter from the Department meets to some extent their requirements, they still feel that in certain respects the varieties required will not be available. That may mean a reduction in stocks and, possibly, in some cases, a reduction of the number of hands required.

I noted that the Minister remarked that the hotel trade had not been captured by the Irish producers. I am interested in that because I remember noticing on one occasion that even the Fáilte hotels had imported china, so that, apparently, the ordinary hoteliers were not the only persons involved in that practice. I believe that, if the manufacturers advertised the highquality articles that are being produced, they would be bound to capture the market here if the quality was satisfactory. If, however, articles are produced, such as some of those that were shown to me, then I would say that they cannot expect to get the demand for them here which they would get if the articles measured up to the proper standard.

I should like to suggest to theMinister that officers of his Department should consult again with the traders concerned and, if possible, reach agreement on the modifications necessary in order to make this Order acceptable both to the traders and manufacturers.

It is somewhat difficult to comment intelligently on a number of Orders like these presented to the House as the outcome of very detailed technical and expert examination. At the same time, it is essential that the House should keep final control on the making of such Orders. For the reason I have mentioned, when members rise to speak on the Minister's submissions in connection with these Orders, it may well appear that they are either speaking somewhat foolishly through ignorance or, possibly worse still, making statements which may quite well appear to be harmful to an industry that they are interested in developing. Allowance has to be made for that difficulty, so far as the House is concerned, when it tries to deal with these Orders.

It is not possible to examine in detail the case made by the Minister in respect of this general body of Orders. There are one or two points, however, which I should like to make. In a number of cases where duties are being imposed, it has been indicated that it will not be possible for the home units fully to meet the market demands. Consequently, that will require that some imports will have to be allowed in. Whether these imports should be allowed in, free of duty or not, cannot be dealt with now. I am concerned with the mechanics of the matter. If we take the case of galvanised and barbed wire, I understand there is only one producing unit in the country. If, for example, there is some delay in meeting the full home demand, and it is decided to allow in duty free imports, will that single producing unit be the channel through which these imports will be made available? If there is a duty free licence made available, what happens in regard to a reconciliation in the price of the imported article, if it happens to belower than the price of the home produced article, on the Irish market, including the duty?

I think it is important to have regard to the trade channels through which such imports will be placed and to the trade channels through which the distribution of this newly-produced Irish product will take place. There have been cases, particularly in regard to the delf trade, where established traders, particularly wholesalers, have found that it is no longer possible for them to secure their particular supplies of imported articles. When they applied to the Irish manufacturers, the case was made that they were not on the list of agents. Difficulties arose for them in that way. It also raises the question of price structure.

Clearly, if we are going to establish the manufacture of a new product here, which has got certain clearly established trade channels for distribution, there should be some regard for those who have an established interest in that distribution whose supplies are now being substituted by the Irish manufactured article as against the imported article. That has not always been so. There have been cases of that kind, and I am drawing the attention of the Minister's Department to it, in the case of delf and in regard to the boot and shoe trade. If we are going to impose duties for the benefit of our economy and, directly, of course, for the benefit of the workers engaged in the new unit, as well as for those who invest money in it, we should have some regard for the people whose normal method of trade and of earning a livelihood is being disturbed by the change over. We should not permit too discriminatory a policy to be exercised by manufacturers to whom we are giving this privileged position in regard to the duty, or allow them to exercise a certain policy in regard to the particular wholesalers through whom they will distribute their products.

In regard to the duty on sheet glass, the Minister indicated that it was being produced by a manufacturing unit directly concerned in the manufacture of other glass products. A bell was struck in my mind when theMinister referred to the question of exports. We had a question raised in the House in regard to the difference in price of an Irish manufactured article on the English market and on the home market. There can be a good plausible case made for that. It seems to me to be a case that has got to be subjected to minute and very careful examination because it is wide open to abuse if we are going to provide protection for an Irish industry, and it is possible, by inflating costs, to secure a higher price on the Irish market and sell on the foreign market at less than the home produced price. We could get a situation in which not merely were the Irish consumers being provided with an article at an economic price, taking into account the volume of production as represented by the export trade, but where the Irish consumer was being exploited in that the prices charged could only be justified on the over-all costings, while in actual fact no such justification could exist at all. Quite clearly, while we are all for the policy of protection and the development of Irish industry, and desire to see it develop not merely to the point where it can meet the demand of the home market but also of the export market, we have to be very careful to see that we are able to justify to our own people that they are getting the benefit of the development of industry under protection into foreign markets. That is not a very easy thing to explain. So far as the Minister has dealt with the matter, I feel that he has not carried conviction, and that a good deal more effort will have to be made where we are dealing with a case in which if there is not an actual monopoly there is a very effective single producing unit in a particular trade with the whole of the Irish market available to it.

In the case of delf, the Minister mentioned arrangements to allow the duty free imports of certain foreign made sets within certain price ranges for every set purchased from an Irish manufacturer. If a particular merchant has, say, for argument's sake bought 50 Irish-made sets, and on that basis he is entitled to take advantage of this concession to go in for a like numberof foreign-made sets within the price-range set down, what is going to be the price of the imported article? It is quite possible that apart from those 50 sets imported on the basis of the concession, he may because of the demand among his customers find it necessary also to import foreign-made sets and pay duty on them. Are we to have two prices for the same article in the one shop? Or is he going to have to put on two prices, one for the sets imported on the basis of the concession and another for the articles imported with duty paid? I speak with some knowledge of that because immediately after the imposition of the present duty many people who have various tea and coffee sets went out looking for the replacement parts that Deputy Cosgrave spoke about and these had all disappeared within a matter of hours and customers were politely told that if they came back around December they could get their requirements to make up for breakages in their sets, but it would cost a minimum of 2/6 extra per cup and saucer. That was getting pretty quickly off the mark.

It is that which causes so much difficulty in securing and maintaining full public confidence in the general policy of protection but more particularly in its application to individual industries or individual articles, because, while the Irish people as a whole are quite satisfied and quite prepared to give their support to Irish industries and continue that support in ways which we stated in this House would be for the development of Irish industry, they do feel sore when they come across cases of sharp practice by individual traders. It is the old case of the black sheep giving everybody else a bad name.

Finally, I would like to refer to the sterile glass containers. The Minister mentioned the difficulty of inducing Irish pharmaceutical distributors to take supplies of Irish-manufactured containers and there was a fear that there was a certain preference for English manufacturers or English wholesale houses. That may be a sentimental interest but it also maybe of another kind. It is well known in the pharmaceutical trade that there is a reluctance to handle certain products if the gross profit is below a certain figure. That is a well-established fact. In this case, it may be that it is not a question of sentiment at all but a very cold and practical business reason that the suppliers of these articles from English sources carry the kind of gross profit that is sought for by, and which is attractive to, wholesale and retail suppliers in the pharmaceutical trade.

Mr. A. Byrne

I would like to ask the Minister if he is satisfied that the manufacturers are taking full advantage and giving full benefit and passing it on to the customers in ordinary plain wholesale delf? I am referring to the type of working-class people who do not buy sets but who buy a half-dozen cups and saucers at a time. Is it right that they should have to pay 1/- for a cup, 1/- for a saucer, and 1/- for a plate? Working-class people and the unemployed generally have large families and breakages are frequent, and is it right that they should have to pay 3/- for a cup and saucer with the small plate thrown in, where their means do not permit them to give such prices for the odd cups and saucers?

I mention this point because I was at a sale of work with a number of my colleagues. For a sale of work people give presents of odd articles to some charitable institution to get them sold. I saw a woman pay 1/-each for two ordinary white plates which in the old days might be bought for 3d. or 4d. and considered dear. These people are saying that there is not sufficient demand to bring these cups and saucers within a price range in which they can buy and in some cases they are doing without cups and saucers.

It should be up to the Minister to ensure when he is giving these concessions and protections to Irish manufacturers that they would be able to keep up the output so that if people run short—such as an institution which would have many breakages—theyshould not have to wait for six months to replace these breakages with matching articles. In our own restaurant we have a nice little green and white cup, and in various hospitals and institutions there are similar articles, and if these become broken or damaged they cannot be replaced quickly enough. We read recently in the papers, and those of us who travel in buses, saw notices underneath the picture of a damaged cup, saying: "Break that cup." People are advised in the interests of public health to break cups with flaws in them, but some of the institutions are afraid to break the cup because they cannot get replacements, which they say they want.

Any Irish-manufactured tea or dinner-sets that I have seen are of a very high standard and a tribute to the excellent workmanship and quality put into them. They are a credit to the industry which turned them out and should one say in passing that an industry that deserves the highest tribute that anyone could pay to them in this House is the Waterford glass industry. I have heard the quality of these goods praised by continentals who were very happy and pleased to be able to bring home small presents of our new Waterford glass.

But I want to see the Minister, in his very laudable desire to see that employment is given in these new industries, concern himself also with the consumers and see if the industry that is getting the concession gives sufficient output to meet the people's needs. The type of delf or china that is used by the working-class people in the City of Dublin—of which I am a member—is scarce and dear, and because of that dearness I ask the Minister: Will he give that type of person a chance of filling his requirements at a price he can afford to pay?

I want to say that I am not satisfied that our Irish industry is playing its part in giving the class of material it should give. Is there any reason why hotels, at any rate, could not be given materials by our own manufacturers? I feel there is no justification whatever for the present situation. I want to go further and say tothe Minister that if he and his Department are going to look after hotels, they should see that what is on the table is of Irish manufacture. Why is it that after so many years they are not able to cater for hotels? I am amazed, when I look at the china to see where it has been manufactured, to discover that it has not been manufactured in Ireland. Surely there should be a demand from Irish hotels for our own products.

Deputy Cosgrave referred to the question of replacements. I am informed that these replacements are inferior in quality as compared with the original. I believe that in these factories there is what is known as firsts and seconds and there is a big reduction in the price of seconds. Those seconds are bought by wholesalers and retailers and I am inclined to think that they are often passed over on to the unthinking customer as firsts. The result is that, as time goes on, and defects are discovered the Irish manufactured article again comes under criticism and it is said that the imported English manufactured article is better, even though it is often dearer. I think a good deal of supervision is required and I think there should be some system of supervision in alternate years. I believe our manufacturers are not inclined to cater for the full market. I can see no reason why the hotel requirements could not be captured by our own manufacturers. It would be desirable to discover whether it is quality or price that governs choice because I am sure we are all anxious to support Irish manufacture.

With regard to the point made by Deputy A. Byrne in regard to price, there may be a tendency on the part of certain people to believe that because there is protection that is the reason why tableware is now dearer than it was pre-war. It ought to be accepted that commodities generally have increased in price. I was speaking to an English housewife about tableware on sale here and she said that our prices compared reasonably with the prices obtaining in Britain. I understand that all tableware has increased substantially inprice over there and we should not attribute blame to the Irish manufacturer because delf is dearer now than it has been in the past. Everything has increased in price.

Anyone who has been through the Arklow factory will admit that the standard of efficiency there is very high. Good wages are paid. The plant and machinery is first-class and up to date. It is an industry of which we have every right to be proud. We admit that the criticisms offered are constructive and we could err by being too complacent about quality rather than by being critical about it. I think the manufacturer must accept that his goods will be regarded with a certain amount of criticism and that comparisons will be made with similar goods manufactured elsewhere. I think that is essential. Having secured protection, it is up to the manufacturer to give to the Irish consumer high-quality goods. Even if prices are a little higher than they were some years ago that is a prevailing condition all over the world. The products of the Arklow factory compare reasonably well both in quality and price with similar goods produced elsewhere.

The industrial surveys which I referred to on an earlier Imposition of Duties Bill have, I think, been completed. There can only be one or two left, if any at all. On the basis of these surveys conferences were held where necessary with the representatives of the manufacturers concerned, primarily for the purpose of pointing out to them the extent to which they were not meeting the market or directing their attention to new lines of production which they might develop. In many cases I think it is true to say that some industrial progress has resulted. In other cases I was satisfied that nothing could be done in the direction which seemed possible when the survey was being studied.

Up to the present the sole use of these surveys has been to open up for exploration possible new fields of development in the home market. The Government has decided that it is necessary to hold another systematicreview of the operation of protection. That will be of a different kind and for a different purpose; it will be directed to investigating the efficiency with which productive operations are carried on here and the need for protection at existing rates or the possible consequences of its modification in some cases.

Is such a review contemplated?

Such a review has been decided upon.

Who will undertake it?

Probably the Industrial Development Authority, a body which is empowered to do that under existing legislation; but I do not want to confine myself to that type of survey. It may be more pointed in a few instances. With regard to tableware, I was surprised that the representatives of the retailers complained to Deputy Cosgrave about the quality of Arklow products because they made no complaint regarding quality to my Department.

It is confined to some cases only. Some were excellent.

Reference was made to replacements but the main complaint was lack of sufficient variety of design. It has to be recognised that some sacrifice of variety is involved in manufacture here but I agree there is an obligation upon manufacturers to produce the maximum number of varieties and designs economically possible and to recognise the need of traders to have variety if they are to maintain sales.

Some time last year I visited the Arklow factory and watched operations there. As a non-expert, it seemed to me that their method of working lent itself to innumerable interchanges of design in relation to shape and so forth and that there should be no real problem on that score if their design department was properly organised. It is, of course, necessary for any manufacturer to maintain a regular supplyof replacements, particularly to traders in delf. At our time of life most of us only buy a tea set or dinner set as a wedding present for a son or daughter or friend. For household purposes it is replacements we are looking for and if delf of the same design cannot be secured the housewife concerned is handicapped. I know of no reason why Irish manufacturers should not be able to maintain a proper supply of replacements to traders and I intend to investigate their arrangements in that regard.

At the time I visited the factory there was quite a substantial stock held there. It was obvious that production was running somewhat ahead of sales. That is why I am surprised to hear any complaint about delays or difficulty in getting delivery of goods because it seemed to me that in respect of most of the products of that factory delivery from stock at a moment's notice should have been feasible. The position with regard to the hotel trade is complicated. I have discussed it with individual hotel-keepers. I have no recollection of anyone complaining of the quality of Irish delf. Some of them said to me that it had no price advantage, notwithstanding the duty, over the imported goods. There is, of course, one very well-known firm which specialises in hotel servicing in England and most of the firms here would have had contacts with that firm over a number of years and it is probably quite a simple matter to place an order with that firm for a supply of so many items of the standard design used in the hotel. Arklow have told me that they are willing to meet these designs and to co-operate fully with hotel-keepers in ensuring that a change-over to Arklow ware means no departure from the standard designs previously used.

It has, of course, to be recognised that the cost of delf is higher than before the war and is going to remain so, but my information is that the price at which delfware is produced here is keenly competitive with the price of goods from British potteries.

Deputy Larkin referred to the fact that in the case of the Galway chinafactory the duty on chinaware was brought into operation before the factory was in full production. I must say that it is, as Deputy Cosgrave appreciates, established practice here not to impose a protective duty on any class of goods until production has actually commenced. There are obvious reasons for that. One does not like the prospect of some company proposing to manufacture goods getting a protective duty and then raising money on the strength of the protection which had been afforded. That is why the normal practice is to require that production should have commenced before a protective duty comes into operation.

In the case of the Galway factory, however, that was a joint enterprise of the Galway Industrial Development Committee, a private group of people, and Foras Tionscal and it looked at one time as if they might go on the rocks unless they got that evidence of official support which the early imposition of the duty afforded and, in fact, it did contribute, I think, to the completion of the tripartite negotiations which got the factory launched.

In the case of chinaware which, as I have said, is a particularly imperishable type of goods, there was, of course, far more danger of stocking up against the possibility of a tariff than would apply in other cases, and the circumstances of that enterprise were different in this respect that quite a long period of partial manufacture had to be contemplated, when workers were being trained in the more delicate processes, before full-scale production could commence.

Deputy Larkin asked about the mechanics for the granting of duty-free licences. That is an important question. Normally, so far as I am concerned, I would prefer to relate duty-free licences to orders placed with Irish producers. That is quite a simple matter where it is recognised that there is a gap between total Irish output and market needs. If that gap is 20, 25 or 50 per cent. of market needs then the relationship between the quantities to be admitted under duty-free licences to the quantities producedby Irish manufacturers can be easily established. In other cases, where no gap, or only a slight gap, is believed to exist, the practice is to require the applicant for a duty-free licence to produce evidence of inability of local manufacturers to supply. Deputy Larkin referred to the case where there was only one Irish producer. In that case that one producer is required to certify that an order was placed with him but that he was unable to meet it within a reasonable time or for some stated reason.

In many cases, of course, the standard practice is not to grant duty-free licences at all and to require any person desiring to import goods of the class concerned to pay the duty on them. The aim in all cases must be to ensure that there is no discrimination as between one applicant and another except upon some obvious and justifiable ground.

It is true that in the case of delf there were for a time many complaints about refusal of supplies on wholesale terms to individual traders. The House may have noticed, however, that in the past two or three weeks an advertisement was published in the Press from the Fair Trade Commission to the effect that they have prepared and published fair trading rules for this particular trade. The Fair Trade Commission expect that the trade will now be operated in accordance with these fair trading rules. If they find that should not prove to be the case then, of course, the consequential provisions of the Restrictive Trade Practices Bill will become operative.

In the case where export prices for Irish products are less than the home prices, it is generally true that Irish home prices are less than they otherwise would be by reason of that export trade. The case made here was the case of glass bottles. It is true that a particular instance was given of a type of bottle where the differential between the price at home and the export price was quite considerable but, over the whole range of bottles which are exported, the differential between the export price and the home price is very much narrower. As was explained to me, the cost of productionabove home market requirements is considerably less than the cost of producing for the home market only. The illustration was given of a tank producing glass. If enough material is put into the tank to take out 15 tons of glass the cost of that glass is determined by the wages paid to the workers operating the tank, the fuel used for firing the tank as well as the material put into it. If enough material is put into the tank to take out 17 tons of glass, the wages remain the same, fuel costs remain the same, the overheads remain the same and the additional two tons are secured for the cost of the extra materials which went into the tank and the glass products made from that glass can therefore be sold profitably at a lower price than the bulk of the production and, by doing so, the all-over costs of the total production are reduced. In fact, the firm producing these glass bottles have indicated that if they cannot maintain their export trade the prices at home will go up and that the more they can expand their export trade the lower will the prices at home become.

But the Minister does not mean that this additional production can explain the difference in price between the export price and the price at home?

That is what I am saying. The additional production is for export and the larger that margin of manufacture for export can be made, the lower the home prices will be.

I understand that. But why at one and the same time, then, do they sell a bottle cheaper in England than here?

The Deputy must not think that they are selling them cheaper abroad because they want to sell them cheaper abroad. It is because it is the only price they can get abroad; but, nevertheless, that price is sufficient to cover part of the overheads and part of the cost of producing bottles for the home market.

That explains it. Sowe can take it that they are thus selling the bottles across at a loss?

No, on the contrary they offered to demonstrate to my officials that even at the lower price the increased production that the exports provide cuts down the cost of total production of the firm.

Fair enough. That explains it.

In the matter of delf goods to which reference was made it is of course quite true that one of the main problems of the delf industry is the disposal of seconds, that is products which have a flaw of some sort in them—the pattern slightly crooked or a slight chip out of it or something wrong with the glaze. In fact, a large part of the imports which used to come from Britain were seconds, and perhaps a large part of the Irish goods that may be exported to Britain will be seconds, because it is the disposal of seconds without destroying the market for the firsts which is the main problem.

Charging top prices for the seconds.

The Deputy says some retailers buying these slightly defective goods at lower prices because they are defective may be selling them at the top price. That could be so, but I do not see any way by which that practice could be eliminated except by competition between traders, and I think that answers the point which Deputy Larkin made about the price at which goods imported under duty-free licences may be sold. Inevitably, competition will prevent any attempt to exploit that situation except a firm importing goods can get some exclusive type of goods that no other firm would have and they can represent them as being of exceptional quality and therefore worth more. On the whole, so long as we can keep up a full supply of goods at competitive prices, these incidental problems should settle themselves.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

Is there any objection to the Committee Stage now?

I suppose not.

It is a Second Reading debate really.

Bill passed through Committee without amendment, reported, and received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

The Minister will consult with the hardware trade?

On the question of replacement, certainly.

I take it on any questions that they may have.

As I have told the Deputy already we have now fixed the position until March and we have undertaken to review the position again in March.

Question put and agreed to.

This Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.

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