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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 1954

Vol. 147 No. 11

Private Members' Business. - Amendment of Aliens Act, 1935— Motion.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That, in order to relieve the acute congestion which exists in rural areas in the State, particularly in the West of Ireland, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should forthwith introduce proposals for legislation to amend the Aliens Act, 1935, so as to ensure that aliens shall not acquire land suitable for agricultural purposes or the relief of congestion unless they have at least ten years permanent residence in the State; Dáil Éireann further considers that such legislation should be retrospective to the 1st day of January, 1945.—Deputies McQuillan and Finucane.

I move the amendment in my name and in the names of Deputies Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin and Blaney:—

To delete all words from and including "forthwith", in line 3, down to the end of the motion, and substitute "make further and better provision for the solution of this problem".

I was pointing out to the House during the debate on this motion that I felt the movers of the motion were agitated by the failure of the Land Commission and the law of the State, in so far as it went, to relieve the land slum problem. The amendment is to delete certain words after the word "forthwith" in the motion and the motion would then read:—

"That, in order to relieve the acute congestion which exists in rural areas in the State, particularly in the West of Ireland, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the Government should forthwith make further and better provision for the solution of this problem."

I tabled the amendment, Sir, because I thought I would be able to convince Deputy McQuillan that his motion as it stands on the Order Paper, whatever good intentions may be behind it, is asking for something that is already there. The motion asks for the introduction of proposals for legislation to amend the Aliens Act, 1935, so as to ensure that aliens shall not acquire land suitable for agricultural purposes or the relief of congestion, and so forth. There is power under the very Act that Deputy McQuillan seeks to amend to deal with the matter that is agitating his mind. I refer the Deputy in particular to Section 5 of the Aliens Act, 1935, which provides, under subsection (1):—

"The Minister may, if and whenever he thinks proper, do by Order (in this Act referred to as an Aliens Order) all or any of the following things in respect either of all aliens of a particular nationality or otherwise of a particular class, or of particular aliens, that is to say:—

(a) prohibit the aliens to whom the Order relates from landing in or entering Saorsatát Éireann."

Section 5 goes further and in subsection (1) (f) provides that the Minister may:—

"require such aliens to reside or remain in particular districts or places in Saorstát Éireann."

We pause there for a moment. If an alien acquires land or goes to acquire land in the County of Roscommon or County Mayo the Minister for Justice can say to him "I will not allow you to live in County Mayo" or "I will not allow you to live in County Roscommon". Under Section 5, paragraph (g), the Minister may:—

"Prohibit such aliens from residing or remaining in particular districts or places in Saorstát Éireann."

So that the Minister for Justice, under the law of the land, can say to an alien in any county in Ireland "get out" and he has no answer. If, for instance, an alien purchases land in any particular area the Minister for Justice can give him his walking papers there and then if he so desires.

Paragraph (h) of the same section provides that the Minister may:—

"require such aliens to comply, while in Saorstát Éireann, with particular provisions as to registration, change of abode, travelling, employment, occupation, and other like matters."

So that the Minister for Justice, under that particular paragraph, can say to any alien in this State, "I will not allow you to engage in agriculture. I will not allow you to farm land". In addition to all these powers under the Aliens Act, 1935, that I have already cited, I would further refer the House to Section 11 of the same Act which provides that:—

"The Minister may by Order make regulations in relation to any matter or thing referred to in this Act as prescribed or to be prescribed, but no such regulation shall be made in relation to the amount of a fee without the consent of the Minister for Finance."

And there is the usual provision that every regulation under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. So that, under Section 11 the Minister is empowered under this very Act, if the present powers are not sufficient, and I think they are, to make regulations even to the extent of repealing Section 3, because it has been decided that a statutory regulation now can repeal sections or other statutory provisions.

As I have said, the motion as tabled by the movers, asks for proposals for legislation that already exists. I can quite understand the movers of the motion, particularly Deputy McQuillan. I think he stated that he was not familiar with the law and the technicalities of the matter, but I am quite sure that Deputy MacBride, to whom I listened when the motion was being discussed on the last occasion, was well aware of the provisions that I am dealing with now. Deputy MacBride knew quite well that if he has any case in point all he has got to do, if he is worried about any alien, is to persuade the Minister for Justice or the present Government to deal with him. There are ample powers for the Government so to do and for the Minister so to do. If we are sincere, we have no business coming into this House, talking with our tongues in our cheeks about powers that we know are there. If in a particular instance there is a problem that Deputy MacBride knows of and is interested in, all he has to do is to go to the Minister for Justice under this section and ask him to deal with that problem.

I realise that the main matter agitating the minds of the people who have moved the motion is the land slum problem. I am convinced that the measures so far taken to deal with the land slum problem and congestion have been ineffective. For that reason I also ask that further measures should be taken to deal with the land slum problem.

In particular, I would refer the House to the utter failure of the Land Commission to deal with the land slum problem under Section 27 of the 1950 Act. When that Act was going through this House the Minister for Lands and many other people gave the impression that this section, which allowed the Land Commission to come into the open market to purchase land for the relief of congestion would make a tremendous difference in solving this problem and visions and pictures were painted here, once that section was passed, of the Land Commission buying in the open market the available holdings for the purpose of dealing with this problem. What do we find? Since 1950 to date the total number of holdings purchased by the Land Commission in the open market is 22. There are at least 22,000 congests in County Mayo. There are at least 22,000 smallholders there under £10 valuation. I think it will be apparent to anybody that if the total efforts of the Land Commission under all the legislation and particularly under the 1950 Land Act has resulted in the acquisition of 22 holdings or one holding per 1,000 of the congests in County Mayo, we will not make much headway with this problem.

I do not know that it is necessary for me to examine the reasons for the failure of the Land Commission in dealing with the land slum problem. Suffice it to say that every one of us who comes from a congested area realises that only the fringe of the problem has been touched and, if we take the history of the State since its foundation, there have been approximately only 1,000,000 acres of land taken and set, counting the land that was rearranged. The total amount of money spent on it was approximately £9,500,000. How much of that would go in salaries, Land Commission salaries and expenses, I do not know.

We still have in counties like Mayo 22,000 uneconomic holders and we can all realise we are getting nowhere, and that if things are left as they are we will get nowhere. I think it is a feeling in the minds of Deputies on all sides of the House that the policy of the Land Commission has been largely a failure, and I think I am giving them credit for any rearrangements they have made. If you take their figures since the foundation of the State you will realise that their average rate of rearranging and of acquiring is a 100 farms per year. That is obviously going to get us nowhere.

Before I leave the aliens question, I must say that I largely agree, as far as my part of the West is concerned, with what was stated here by, I think, Deputy Brennan, on the last occasion. The type of alien we have got in the West are people who are buying old ramshackle places nobody else would purchase. They are people who come back to the West of Ireland looking for atmosphere, looking for a place where the local fly-boy can play Liszt's rhapsody on his tin whistle. They come out and find that they have acquired a place which nobody else would buy, and then you will see advertisements in the London newspapers about a cosy nook with wonderful fishing and free shooting looking out on the broad Atlantic. They are looking for somebody who will take off their hands the property they had acquired earlier. We like these people down there and these are not the people who create the problem that Deputy McQuillan has in mind.

But getting on to what we must do if we are going to make headway, and obviously somebody is going to ask what we are going to do, I have one suggestion which is to let the local congest solve his own problem. I would empower some board such as the old Congested Districts Board, to schedule every land slum and to schedule every individual farm in a land slum. I would take one or two or three in that particular area with a valuation of £5, or say, a market value of £500, and I would give him credit for £1,000 and let him go out in the open market with the money and purchase any farm on the market. In that way we would be providing that the thrifty congest would do for himself the work which the Land Commission failed to do. I would allow the small farmer whose holding has a market value of £400 or £500 credit for £1,000 to enable him to go out into the open market to purchase any holding that was available. I would, of course, ask him to surrender the holding he was leaving to the Land Commission. In every paper in rural Ireland every week you will see advertisements for holdings which are being sold. There are hundreds of them for sale every week. Of these hundreds of holdings the Land Commission, in their efforts to solve the congestion problem, have succeeded in buying 22 since 1950.

Generally the people who go in for competition in land acquisition in rural Ireland do not derive their livelihood solely or mainly from agriculture. Usually they are shopkeepers or some such people. I do not know if it is proposed to stop these people. I would not propose to do so but I would help the congest by giving him this credit to enter the open market and compete with the shopkeeper and with the other people who are acquiring the land as it comes up for sale. In that way we would be making some effort to solve the congestion problem. I have no doubt that if those people in the land slum areas got the chance and got the necessary help to which they are entitled the congestion situation would ease itself in due course. If there was a scheme of the sort which I am now suggesting they would not have to wait on the Land Commission. Goodness knows they have been waiting long enough for the Land Commission.

In every congested area you go into —and most Deputies know this—the people have been waiting 30, or 40 or maybe 50 years for the Land Commission to get to them. It has a stultifying effect on them. They have been waiting years in the muck for the Land Commission to take them out of their misery and the Land Commission has failed. If we do not do something about this problem emigration will solve it for us. There are unfortunately hundreds of villages in rural Ireland where the keys are being turned in the locks and where the parents as well as the children are going.

We must look upon this problem as being very urgent. I would suggest to the Deputies who may not come from the congested areas to look on this problem as a national one. I do not believe there is a county in Ireland in which there is not some land slum. In any county where there is a land slum scheduled it would enable the people to come out in the open market and solve the problem if they were given credit such as I suggested. Under the scheme I am advocating I would suggest to the Government to cut out the old antipathy by the Deputies from the Midlands. I believe many of the people in the congested areas could solve their own congestion problem if given help of this kind and I am equally satisfied after all the years and all the Land Acts that unless the initiative of the small man is allowed and encouraged the congestion problem will still be talked about by us and by those who come after us in 50 years time.

I cannot see why in a national problem of this kind some proposal along the lines of my suggestion could not be brought to bear on the problem. Over the years millions and millions of pounds have been devoted by this Dáil for the relief of slum problems in Dublin, Cork and other towns and cities, and further millions and millions of pounds have been voted for the provision of amenities such as water and sewerage in the urban and city areas. This is an urgent problem and a problem which will not wait. Although I have no figures on the aliens question, I do not think that is going to get at the kernel of this. We must think in a very advanced way about the solution of the congestion problem. It is not really a question of aliens. It is a question of tackling the problem as a national one, giving the people in the congested areas the help they require. I would urge on the Government and the Minister for Lands to consider the suggestion put forward in this motion, and if he is satisfied, as I am satisfied, that the progress has been hopeless from a national point of view in dealing with this problem, then he should face this with an open mind. If the provisions of the old Land Acts have not achieved their object, then it is time we looked around for some new solution. I would ask the House to accept this motion as amended and ask the Minister for Lands to accept the suggestions made by me to-night towards doing something in the immediate future to relieve this problem which is one that affects practically the whole western seaboard as well as different parts of practically every county in the State.

Is there a seconder for the motion?

I will second the motion but if the Minister for Lands wishes to speak, I will reserve my right to speak later.

On a point of information, in view of the amendment that has been put in, I would like to ask if I have the right to reply?

The mover of the motion has always the right to reply but I cannot enforce that if Deputies keep on talking.

I take it I will get the usual time?

I hope the House will accord that to the Deputy.

The time is short but the amendment tabled by Deputy Moran and Deputy Bartley has compelled me to rise to my feet. I would like first to say a few words on the original motion put down by Deputy McQuillan. I want to be quite candid and say I have a certain sympathy with the spirit of the motion. I think I know what is in Deputy McQuillan's mind when he tables such a motion as this but I am compelled for once to find myself in the strange position of being in agreement with Deputy Moran when he refers to the Aliens Act of 1935. What he says is exactly true.

I am sorry Deputy McQuillan did not present the picture in a more correct form than he did. He drew a comparison between the acreage that was purchased by aliens and that purchased by the Land Commission in a given ten years. I do not know where he got the figures for the purchase of land by aliens because the official figures do not seem to tally with the figures that Deputy McQuillan has given. I might remind Deputy McQuillan and the House in general that during the ten years that he has named, with the exception of two years, the Land Commission was closed down by Government Order.

There was one Government Order on the 19th February, 1939, preventing them from acquiring or resuming any land for the relief of congestion and a further Order on the 25th February, 1941. I have copies of the two Orders if anybody wishes to have particulars of them. This not alone prevented the Land Commission from acquiring or resuming land in the usual way for the relief of congestion but it also limited their work within the Department, that is, the office side of it because of the loaning of staff to other Government Departments during the emergency period. Perhaps any Government might have done the same as that and I have no quarrel with these Government decisions except that they were supposed to last only for the duration of the emergency. The war ended about April, 1945, but three years later, in 1948, when we took office, those Orders had not been revoked. I do not want Deputy McQuillan to blame the Land Commission for not acquiring land during that period. They were prohibited by Government Orders of the dates I have given. I have copies of the Orders here if Deputy McQuillan is not satisfied with that explanation.

Deputy McQuillan said the figures for the acquisition of land by aliens from 1947 to 1954 is 13,200 acres and approximately 6,000 acres of that was mountain and bog of the type described by Deputy Moran.

1947 to 1954?

That was given in reply to a parliamentary question to-day by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach; I think it was £1,000,000 that was given as having been paid for land by aliens. There is another aspect to this motion. Listening to Deputy McQuillan when he was moving this motion on the last night he was here I felt I was one of the greatest traitors to this country and that every one of the 147 Deputies were traitors too, that we were all, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Clann na Talmhan, Clann na Poblachta, prepared to sell the country. I suppose I should have felt proud to think that we had at least one true patriot who would expose the whole lot of us and bring us to a sense of our duty. I do not think that is a fair way to present the case and I would ask Deputy McQuillan to tell us in his reply (1) how many aliens have purchased land in his county and (2) how many aliens who may have purchased land in his county have sold out since?

I think it is true to say that during the war years for reasons best known to themselves a certain number of people came in here and purchased land, but I am informed by auctioneers and others in the business that the tide is now turning and for the last number of years many of those who bought land during the war years have sold out. I know that to be the truth and as a matter of fact right beside Deputy McQuillan's own home in Roscommon, of two very large farms one has been sold at a loss and another is advertised for sale at the present time. In regard also to the figures he quoted I am afraid Deputy McQuillan mixed up the town and city purchases with the land purchases because he based his figures on the 25 per cent. purchase tax, that is, the amount you have to pay whether it is a shop, a farm or some place overlooking Clew Bay in County Mayo.

The Minister said that between 1947 and 1954 approximately 13,000 acres of land had been purchased by aliens. Is that correct?

1947 to 1954.

For the period between the 1st January, 1950, and 13th June, 1954, 13,000 acres is the figure. It was not 1947.

And 6,000 acres of it was bog, mountain or lake.

That is a different matter.

At column 1434, Volume 147 of the Official Debates of 1st December, 1954, Deputy McQuillan, in moving the motion, said that the Land Commission during a certain period of years spent £360,000 on the acquiring of land. The actual figure is £600,000. Regarding the amendment which has been put down to this motion, it is a pity that Deputy Moran did not use his influence on his own Government during the long years he has been a member of this House and get these things done of which he has spoken so proudly and loudly to-night. I remember that when bringing a Bill through this House to help the Land Commission and to make the way easy for them, Deputy Moran and two or three of his colleagues held up that Bill from the 7th December, 1949, until the middle of June, 1950, by prolonging debate to such an extent that closure had to be used. I remember that.

We made a Bill out of it that the Minister could not draft.

I will answer that by saying that not one single amendment by the House was accepted by the Dáil to that Bill.

Was there not? Read it.

If I am wrong in that and I am speaking from recollection I will be only too happy to reply by way of parliamentary question if I am wrong.

Look it up and you will find out.

The Bill was drafted and went through the House in the way I proposed it.

Tell us something about the future.

Deputy Moran now mentions his plan for relieving congestion for the 22,000 congests which, he says, are in County Mayo. I thought I knew Mayo, and I do know that it is one of the worst pockets of congestion in the Twenty-Six Counties, but I was surprised to learn that there are 22,000 congests. Even a half or one-fifth or one-sixth of that number would be a terrific problem in any one country. But that figure of 22,000 is a gross exaggeration, as I am sorry to say we have not a great deal more than 22,000 farmers.

By congests, I mean people under £10 valuation in County Mayo.

Yes, I am not mistaking that at all. Deputy Moran said his proposal would be to make a sum of money available to each of these congests to go out and relieve their own congestion. That is grand, but I ask Deputy Moran to visualise what would happen if every one of these 22,000 suddenly knew that they had this money to call on and if the whole 22,000 turned up at every auction——

The Minister is simply being facetious.

I am not.

If the Minister were listening he would know that I said I would give the board power to schedule individual farmers and schedule every land slum and the board would select one or two or three farmers say with a £5 valuation and give each of them a credit for £1,000 and let him solve his own congestion problem.

How could any board decide that? Six years ago, I thought I had the same brainwave and, on examination, I found it was just foolishness. If any simple method like that could be found in relation to congestion, I would be only too happy to adopt it. I examined that suggestion then and found it useless. Apart from that it would never rearrange the horrible rundale system and the horrible intermixing of plots which we have particularly in Connemara, Mayo and other places in the West. The thing that would emerge, if it were workable is that we would create a desperate flight from these lands and there would be a clamour by everybody with up to £40 or £50 valuation to get this relief. If farmers of that class knew that they could get money in this way, this House would be surrounded with a mass of farmers deserting their work and looking for money that could not be procured. The Deputy must know this could not be done; it would not work. You would have to pick out one man to buy the farm and you could not lead him by the hand to every auction and say: "You can go so much on that farm and then stop." I considered every inch of that idea when I became Minister for Lands six years ago and it was not workable. The least bit of reflection on the part of anybody, especially on the part of Deputy Moran with his knowledge of law and of land should convince him that it would not work. It is a silly suggestion, and I do not mean that in any derogatory way.

Deputy Moran also said that only 1,000,000 acres of land had been divided by the Land Commission. Actually 2,125,000 acres have been purchased.

Is that since 1923? I said since the foundation of the State and I quoted from the Minister's own book.

Well 1,075,000 acres have been purchased during that time and 43,000 enlargements were given out of that. Deputy Moran made an attack on the Land Commission or at least it seemed an attack on his own colleague Deputy Derrig who was Minister for Lands during a long period on three different occasions I think when Fianna Fáil was in power.

No, two.

This amendment, of course, seeks to torpedo completely Deputy McQuillan's motion because if this amendment is accepted by the House Deputy McQuillan's motion goes. Apart from the silly suggestion put forward what plan can the Deputy suggest to help to relieve congestion? There is need for a Minister for Lands who understands the problem of congestion and with all humility I submit to the House that I, at least, know that.

You want more than that; you want land.

A practical knowledge of congestion is the first thing that is essential for a Minister for Lands because every Department needs the Minister's guidance, and he is required to make decisions from day to day. If he does not know and understand the problems with which he has to deal, he will not be able to guide his Department and will not be able to make decisions. I remember very well the assistance I got from the people across the House who are now shedding crocodile tears when I introduced my Bill. Every possible obstruction was put in my way. Deputy Moran says the Land Commission did not operate Section 27 of the 1950 Act, but Deputy Moran and his colleagues did his best to scare people and must to some extent take the responsibility for what happened.

I remember Deputy Moran in this House working himself up over the people from the Land Commission appearing at auctions. That was the assistance I got when I wanted to free the Land Commission from the legislative shackles on their wrists. I got very little assistance and only obstruction particularly from Deputy Moran and Deputy de Valera. Now Deputy Moran comes in here to-night with a grand scheme for giving everyone a lump of money but that scheme would not settle anything or end any of the problems in the West of Ireland. The general opinion of the House—or of some Deputies, but not of all—seems to be that the Land Commission has some magic pool of land from which they can draw in the same way as a banker can pull out money from a bank. The Land Commission can only get land by acquiring it from somebody. It should be remembered that justice must be done to those from whom the land is acquired as well as those to whom it is to be given. That is one of the first principles of the job— justice must be done to both sides. We should remember that the day is gone when we were acquiring land from landlords. I think any right-minded Deputy in this House does not stand for landlords and landlordism or anything like that. At least, I do not. It does not matter whether the landlord is an Irishman, an Englishman or a black man. I have only one purpose in view and that is to place every possible weapon in the hands of the Land Commission to help them to acquire land to relieve congestion which exists. As I have said before on many occasions, it is not now in the year 1954 that we should be relieving congestion. I have helped the Land Commission out and I have gone further than any other Minister for Lands has gone to do it. Deputy McQuillan definitely tries to injure the Land Commission. I do not want to fight the Land Commission's battles for this reason: that legislation passed by this House has taken several matters such as resumption of land, fixing of prices, allotments and so on, out of the hands of the Minister. For that reason, the Land Commission does not need to be defended—it is part of this House. This House has taken by statute certain powers out of the hands of the Minister and handed them to the Land Commission. These are powers which could be in the Minister's hands, but which it would be very foolish to leave in a Minister's hands.

I am sorry to say that the pressure that is put on a Minister for Lands is ample proof of the danger of giving these powers into the hands of a Minister or a member of this House. I want again to ask Deputy Moran and Deputy Bartley and the other supporters of this motion what proposals they have to put forward? What powers has the Land Commission or the Minister for Finance not got now that should be given? It is not good enough to put down a motion and move it in the way that Deputy Moran moved it, as if it were something that came into his head one night just before he went to sleep. I do not think the House should be treated in that way. If there are definite proposals to be put forward, then I want to hear them. I believe that at the present time the Land Commission has all the powers it wants and I will be the first to come in here and ask for further powers if such are necessary for the relief of congestion. I refuse to endorse the shedding of crocodile tears over congestion and, at the same time, doing nothing to relieve that congestion when one has the power to do so.

How many questions did Deputy Moran table to his Minister for Lands during the three years from 1951 to May, 1954, or during the previous Fianna Fáil Government? How many proposals did he put before his Minister for the relief of congestion? Did he take up with his Minister immediately after the war in 1945 the advisability of revoking the close down Order imposed in 1939 and again in 1941? The answers to those questions will be the real proof of his sincerity. These unfortunate congests do not want lip sympathy here. Some of them may be poor and poverty stricken but I am certain they do not want their poverty paraded here, hung out on a bush like a piece of dirty linen to dry.

Tell us why the Minister did not take more than 92 holdings since 1950.

I was not in power for the last three years, and if the Deputy wants that information he will have to ask the ex-Minister, Deputy Derrig. It is Deputy Derrig who should be blamed and not me.

I am laying the blame on the Land Commission, and the Minister is supposed to be the head of it.

If the Land Commission is told to exercise Section 27 it will do so. It was done for me when I was in office. But during that period they were merely feeling their way. This was a new venture, and the only precedent was that established by the Department of Agriculture where inspectors go out to buy at the blood-stock sales.

Is that not the law of this land since 1950? I want to know why the Minister does not get on with the job.

It was a perfectly new venture to send officials of a Government Department out to buy lands at public auctions. Deputy Moran should get the ex-Taoiseach and the ex-Minister for Lands down to his office, or visit them in theirs, and ask them: "Why, in the name of goodness, did you not do something in the three years you were in power?"

In the name of the congests why does the Minister not do something now?

Do not lay the blame on me. I pursued Deputy Derrig when he was Minister for Lands as hard as I could. If one quarter of the action I took had been taken by my successor there would be a different face on things to-day. We have all the powers we want. All we need is the driving force to ensure that the work is done in the proper way. I want to assure Deputy Moran that there will be no flirting with land and no buying for political purposes while I am in the Land Commission. Every perch available will be used for the relief of congestion. No matter how long I am in office, whether it is five years or ten years, I will never have to bring in a Bill to undo work that I did, as Deputy Moran's colleagues had to do.

Since the Minister is doing no work he will have to bring in no Bill.

I was the first to insist on the work of the Land Commission being diverted into the one channel and also to insist on the vesting of land that should have been vested from 1931 onwards.

Do not be praising yourself.

I am not praising myself.

You are making a good effort.

Self praise, heart scandal.

Order! The Minister is entitled to make his speech.

If Deputy Moran tries to blame me for what his Minister for Lands did not do, I think it is time I told the truth. During the first two years I was in office in the first inter-Party Government I was working with empty hands. The machine had been brought to a full stop. The outdoor staff had been lent and I had to recruit a vast number of new inspectors to get the machine working again.

It is essential that justice should be meted out to both sides. We should not forget that to-day, with the exception of a few aliens, we are taking land from our own flesh and blood. It would be most unfair to take land from them without due process of law or to take it unjustly or unfairly, without giving them a chance to defend themselves or receive a fair price for it. Perhaps I am stodgy and old fashioned because I believe in that. I believe in justice for all and not just for one. If others do not subscribe to that view I cannot help it.

The Government cannot accept this motion because we do not believe it was put down in all sincerity. It implies a lack of action on my part, which lack should really be laid at the feet of Deputy Derrig and the Fianna Fáil Party. They did not do the work and it is too late now to cry about it. I do not intend to cry about it. I intend to get on with the work of relieving congestion. May I say there are not 22,000 congests in Mayo. I am glad there are not. Many hard things have been said about our county, but there are not 22,000 congests in it. I do not believe there are that number in the whole country. The amendment to this motion had not been tabled when Deputy Moran spoke on the last occasion. It is an afterthought. It is a condemnation of his own Minister though it seeks to imply that, since I am now Minister, I should be saddled with the blame for what his own Party failed to do. I ask the House to reject the amendment. I do not believe it was put down in sincerity.

I do not think it is necessary to bring in any question of international reciprocity in ownership of property to satisfy Deputy McQuillan that we are not against the sentiment in his motion. I support what Deputy Moran has said, namely, that the sentiment which is apparent in Deputy McQuillan's motion is quite acceptable to us but we feel that, having decided what the objective is, one should adopt the most suitable means of achieving it. If Deputy McQuillan's motion were accepted and the Minister for External Affairs were to try to implement it by amending the Aliens Act, in conjunction with the Minister for Justice, in order to carry out the express wishes of the House, it is possible that a very small leak might be stopped, but I suggest that the main leak in the matter of land evading the Land Commission for the relief of congestion would not have been, in fact, tackled at all.

I think Deputy Moran expressed that in much simpler language when he said that for the one alien who goes to the West of Ireland and buys property for its scenic rather than for its agricultural value, you have possibly ten, 20 or 30 local people with more money than they require and who certainly do not need land or agriculture to give them a livelihood, competing with the Land Commission and with these congests for whatever land may yet be available in the nine scheduled counties of the congested districts. I think it is a bit of a joke, of course, to compare East Galway and Roscommon with the seaboard strip.

There is one argument I would commend to Deputy McQuillan against his suggestion for an amendment of the Aliens Act. I do not know whether in his constituency there are American citizens who did not register themselves in our Irish offices in the United States and who come back here to the holdings occupied by their ancestors and who, in fact, according to the law are aliens. If we were to allow the law to take a new form such as is suggested, these people could under the law be dispossessed. I know that is not the intention of Deputy McQuillan. He did say here on the last occasion that he was not an expert on matters of this sort and that if the sentiment and the principle, which he wanted to have accepted, were accepted he would leave the adaptation in the hands of people better qualified than he to see that the adaptation was properly carried out. Seeing that that is Deputy McQuillan's attitude on the proposed amendment of the law, I suggest to him that he should see this suggestion of his in its complete ineptitude. It would not have the slightest effect on the solution of the problem which he and the whole of us wish to see solved.

The attitude of the Minister for Lands has not been by any means helpful. He started off in boastful fashion about his own virtues as Minister for Lands and about the deficiencies of any other Minister from this Party who occupied the same office. He seems to adopt two Orders made by the Fianna Fáil Government in the emergency to defend the Land Commission against the charge made by Deputy McQuillan about the smallness of the number of acres acquired. On the other hand on every occasion he uses the same Orders to lambast Fianna Fáil for having done nothing. He cannot stand on both legs on that question. He knows very well that during the emergency the main need was to utilise land for the immediate purpose of getting food out of it. If we were to waste our time sending around inspectors and going through the long procedure of acquiring and distributing land, he knows that the people of the country would have gone hungry. The sensible and the practical thing was done. Every man who was capable of adding to the production of the country, whether from turf, minerals or food, the Government saw to it that his efforts were directed to that work. Signs on it, we were able to battle it out with our chins above water during the seven years of the war.

Why not act when the war was over?

I want to tell the Minister for Lands that our contribution to the relief of congestion has been very substantial indeed, more so than he could offer. He has been boasting here that he knows this problem of congestion better than anybody else in this House.

I did not make that claim.

He should know, if he does not know, that there are people living in these congested districts who have not been able to avail themselves of any building assistance either through the Department of Local Government, the Land Commission itself or the Gaeltacht Housing scheme. He knows that there are large families being reared in dripping thatched roofed houses and he knows that these people cannot be supplied with houses until a rearrangement of the holdings is carried out.

Why? That is not true.

It is true. I will pit my knowledge of my constituency against that of the Minister for Lands in spite of his boastings here.

Will the Deputy give me cases inside the next month?

I shall give you cases right now of people who have been refused housing grants because the land was subject to rearrangement. Is that the question?

That is my question.

You are on very shaky ground then.

If I am, I shall walk it myself.

I can produce official letters in support of what I say. Therefore, Deputy Moran had something to offer when he suggested that some sort of credit should be given to certain people. He did not say what the Minister put into his mouth. He did not say that credit should be given to 22,000 congests or to the total number of congests whatever the number may be, to go into the public market to supply themselves with land with the help of these credits. What he did say was—and the Minister ignored it—that the worst of these congested spots should be scheduled or that in fact he should go down further and schedule a number of the tenants for benefit under this scheme. I am not standing up to support a credit scheme, but it is likely a variant of what the Minister had in Section 27 of the 1950 Act.

No, it has no relation to it.

It is a variant of it. What he did was to suggest that this very limited number might be scheduled and that they might get this credit, that they might go into the open market and do what the Land Commission have been apparently unable to do under Section 27, that is, to supply themselves with holdings and with sanitary houses. Information has been given by Deputy Moran which was supplied to him by the Minister to-day on this Section 27. Twenty-two holdings as Deputy Moran has pointed out were bought under Section 27, either by private treaty or by auction since that law was enacted. The total amount involved is £20,000 purchase money and the total rateable valuation of the holdings is £23,000. The Minister himself is not going to start boasting about that. I concede him the right to boast about things about which we cannot put him on the spot here, but that is something about which, on his own figures, he cannot boast.

What about your Minister?

If Section 22 could not produce what the Minister wanted it to produce and what we on this side wanted it to produce, surely I can see some case for Deputy Moran's variant of it. I am not suggesting that Deputy Moran's variant is the best that might be adopted. I would suggest the scheme of Section 27 myself as against Deputy Moran's, but I know that Deputy Moran's suggestion would suit a certain type of man who is a little better off than the average landholder in the really congested districts. If the man who really wants help from the community is to get that help, in my opinion, he can only get it under Section 27. I cannot understand why better results were not achieved under this section for the people who have not so far succeeded in being cared for by the Land Commission.

The Minister made the charge against us that we held up his Bill on this section or he indicated that this was one of the sections on which prolonged debate took place. There was debate on it and the results shown in this answer to me justify, post factum, the delay which then took place in trying to hammer out a better section than this. The point at issue between us was the insistence by the Minister on market value. We felt that if the Land Commission were to be compelled to give market value for all the lands—personally I had in mind lands within the congested districts—a scheme of that sort was open to a great deal of string pulling, that there could be puffing and that the Land Commission might be compelled to buy land at an inflated price. The Minister himself was as well aware of that danger as anybody else.

It did not materialise.

If it did not materialise, can the Minister give us the real reason for the failure indicated in the answer which he gave me to-day?

There is the man beside you.

Only 22 holdings were bought since this section was implemented in 1950.

There is the man beside you. Do not ask me.

I shall not ask anybody but the person who piloted this Bill through the Dáil. It is the Minister who was the great protagonist of this. We did not oppose the principle; we supported it but we did want to make a better section than the Minister made of it. If he had agreed with us he would possibly have a better report to give than 22 holdings, valued at £323 poor law valuation.

Why did you not buy them in the three years you were in power? I was not in the Government then.

Will the Minister try to contain himself for a moment? There was no such section in operation until the enactment of the 1950 Act. It was the Minister's own suggestion, was it not?

Right, and you would not work it.

Do not be foolish on the question.

You would not work it because it was my suggestion.

The Minister here a short time ago gave us an assurance that while he was Minister he would see that there would be no political interference of any sort in the distribution of land or in the conferring of any of the Land Commission benefits. That is a very idle assurance indeed because the Minister has no power to affect either the distribution of land or the decision of the Land Commission in any particular case of acquisition. He knows that and he knows that that is enshrined in all the Land Acts. His predecessor did not attempt any such behaviour. If the Minister did in fact attempt it he found out what the Land Acts contained, that he was quite powerless and that the Land Commission told him that it was their job to decide what land will be acquired and how it will be divided.

Will the Deputy tell us about the 1946 Act?

The Minister said that this was all eyewash, this thing of further and better provision, as a substitute for Deputy McQuillan's amendment to the Aliens Act. Surely the Minister will not suggest that in any sphere of Government activity improvement cannot be found? Is not the very experience of the Land Commission in the administration of the Land Acts a guarantee that something better can always be done than has been done in the past? Does not every year bring new knowledge and new experience and show up the virtue of certain activities and the shortcomings of others? That state of affairs will enable the Land Commission to do better than it has done in the past and is the justification for the amendment in the names of Deputies Moran and Blaney and myself to the effect that further and better provision should be made.

Deputy Moran has pinpointed the worst of this problem. He asks the Minister to direct the Land Commission. The Minister as director of policy can indicate to the Land Commission the type of problem to which they ought to give special attention in any particular year. Deputy Moran has suggested, and I support the suggestion, that the Minister should go into these black spots and schedule the worst of them, that he should schedule the tenants who wish to leave and see to it that the communities of insanitary houses will disappear and that those who are to remain will be provided with good inhabitable houses and that those who wish to go will be provided with good houses elsewhere.

Is not that the policy of this Government?

That is one facet of the problem which requires urgent and immediate attention. I know that the Land Commission has done a great deal in respect of this matter but we want to get that particular aspect of the matter wiped out and we think that that can be done in the course of two or three years at the most. It will not solve the problem of congestion but it will solve the very worst part of it.

It is a pity you wasted 19 years of office. You only discovered this when I told you how to do it.

Will the Minister go back over the Land Commission records? If he would keep quiet he would not give me new ammunition.

Is that the way you are? You have no ammunition until you get it.

Arising out of what the Minister just said, I ask him to go back for one moment on the records and ascertain from the Land Commission how many people were migrated from the congested districts. If he wants to give a political twist to Land Commission administration let him go back over the years since group migration began and let him find out who did most for the relief of congestion. Let him give us the figures on that particular question and let the figures speak for themselves.

I would like to give the figures, too, for all those who were put out.

The figures for what?

Of all those who were dispossessed under the 1946 Act and why they were dispossessed.

Talking about dispossession, the Minister talked here about delays on land legislation in the House and tried to insinuate that Deputy Moran particularly was responsible for delays in getting ahead with the land legislation in the House.

There was very good reason for Deputy Moran's close scrutiny of the proposals in the Land Bill, as there is very good reason for close scrutiny of almost every Land Bill. Does not the Minister himself know very well that there are still flaws and that decisions of the Land Commission have been upset more than once in the Supreme Court?

And that the close examination which the Bill got in the House was fully justified and could not be called obstruction by any stretch of the imagination. How could the Minister charge Deputy Moran with obstruction in a problem like this—a problem which has given him considerable concern in the West of Ireland in the same way as I myself have been concerned with it?

That is true.

Is it not quite obvious to the Minister that Deputy Moran would be very anxious to see that all efforts in this House which would give relief to congestion would not be obstructed? Would he not be as anxious as any man to give the Land Commission an implement that would not break in their hands when dealing with a problem such as this? We are dissatisfied with the Minister's failure to accept this amendment. On the other hand we could not subscribe to the motion as submitted by Deputy McQuillan. As the Minister himself indicated, and as has been indicated by Deputy Moran we would be inclined to support Deputy McQuillan's objective but we cannot subscribe to the method by which Deputy McQuillan wished to give practical effect to what he had in mind. I am afraid his method is very wide of the margin. But it is very disappointing to hear the Minister for Lands standing up here and saying that an amendment which would avoid the pitfalls inherent in the main motion is nothing more than eyewash. Have I not stressed one very important and pressing facet of this problem?

To wit indeed. The people who are condemned to live in unsanitary conditions in the West of Ireland because their holdings have not been rearranged.

Is not that the work I am engaged in?

Does not the Minister know well that in a great part of the congested areas, housing actually has gone on? The Gaeltacht Department as well as the Local Government Department has built a number of new houses.

I understood that the mover of a motion got 20 minutes to reply and I understand now that other Deputies in the House may still wish to speak to this motion.

The Deputy should understand clearly that if it is the wish of the House that the mover should get ten or 15 minutes to reply then the Chair will agree.

It will be the first occasion on which I have seen the House refusing to give 20 minutes.

As I have said I have no power unless the House wishes to give 20 minutes.

It is the same all the time. Every discussion on land and on aliens is throttled by the House.

Would it not be possible to extend the period of time for the winding up of this motion. I feel the Minister for External Affairs will also want to say a few words and I think the House will be in favour of giving Deputy McQuillan a sufficiently long time to reply.

I shall sit down in a few moments because I have no desire to limit the time available to Deputy McQuillan. I should not have had as much to say on the motion were it not for the unreasonable attitude of the Minister. His attitude to the amendment was unsustainable from every viewpoint. We are only anxious to help. There were no politics and no Party ambitions behind this amendment. We did not want to gain any Party kudos out of it and the Minister has sought to turn the problem into a Party issue. I must apologise to Deputy McQuillan for having taken some of his time away from him.

We in the Labour Party too are entitled to submit our views on this whole question. We are as much entitled as any other section to put the views of our Party. I only want to say a few words on this motion. We are very anxious to help alleviate the problem in which the Deputies have interested themselves during this debate.

The Minister for External Affairs is in order.

I want to say only a few words on this. I do not think that this motion either in its original form or with the amendment will really do anything to help alleviate the problem in which the Deputies have interested themselves. There was a suggestion that those who have acquired land should be dispossessed by making the provision retrospective to the 1st January, 1945. As I understand the practice and the law, as far as the Land Commission is concerned they have absolutely the same power of acquisition of any property whether owned by Irish people or by non-nationals, and they can take land, as I shall show in a few moments, from any landowner in the country.

In the last four years the Land Commission has acquired 23 estates comprising 6,877 acres from persons who appeared to be non-nationals and at the same time they have in contemplation of acquisition a further 49 estates totalling 11,640 acres from persons who do not appear to be citizens. People may wonder why these people are singled out for this treatment. Actually they are not singled out—the lands which they own have come under the notice of the Land Commission in the ordinary way, in the same way in which land owned by Irish people has come under the commission's notice. Deputy McQuillan mentioned the fact that you had areas of land bought up by non-nationals and he and Deputy MacBride asked for particulars.

Particulars are not available for the years prior to 1949 except from the point of view of the value of the land acquired. The total value of all property subject to the 25 per cent. stamp duty of the Finance Act (No. 2) 1927, from the 1st December, 1947 to the 31st December, 1948, was £312,556. The total area of land acquired in the four years from 1st January, 1950, to the 30th June, 1954, was 13,250 acres —a total of 210 cases. Individual applicants acquired 13,000 acres, and of that area 6,491 acres were described as woodland or expansive mountain. Since 1950 there has been a drop in the area acquired each year with the exception of 1952 when the value of the land acquired was down but the area was substantially higher and included the 6,491 acres which were described as woodland and expansive mountain—obviously a single estate. As far as the suggestion is concerned that the fact that some land owned here by aliens is preventing the alleviation of distress, I wish to point out that the Land Commission is proceeding in the ordinary way to acquire any of that land that comes under their notice. If we proceeded to legislate against these people we would be completely out of line with reciprocal arrangements which exist between all other countries.

In a few very isolated cases, I think in South America, certain legislation has been imposed against non-nationals. But in almost every other country, in Europe, the United States of America, Canada, New Zealand, conditions exist almost identical with those in this country—the same treatment is afforded to non-nationals as is afforded to non-nationals here. So as far as I can see there would be no reason why we should legislate in a penal fashion, particularly in view of the fact that absolute powers of acquisition, whether concerning nationals or non-nationals, lie in the hands of the Land Commission.

I wonder would it be possible for the Minister to give us the continents in which similar laws exist?

I have not got them readily to hand. There are no European countries in which legislative provision exists against the acquisition of land by non-nationals.

That is all I want to know.

Earlier Deputy MacBride mentioned something about France. The position in France is that in Article 2 of the French Civil Code non-nationals are entitled to acquire land. Article 2 says:—

"Foreigners shall enjoy in France the same civil rights as those which are and will be accorded to French citizens."

There are slightly different arrangements in the different countries and Deputy McQuillan asked me about Great Britain, France and the Netherlands, and in respect of all these places, the right of aliens to acquire property is freely acknowledged. I do not want to delay Deputy McQuillan's right of reply, but I should like again to point out that the Government could not accept this motion in its original form, and the Minister for Finance has given reasons why we could not accept the amendment. I do not see that the amendment offers any practical solution.

Is the debate now finished?

It must finish in six minutes.

As I said already, I do not want to take up time. I do not think the Minister for Lands has any sympathy whatever with the amendment. I could agree with the motion to a certain degree, but because of one or two matters we cannot agree with it in its entirety. If we were to stop the purchase of land by these aliens I do not think that would get over the problem the motion seeks to remedy. I think the movers of the motion are looking in a restricted fashion to the West of Ireland and forget that similar conditions exist elsewhere. They exist in the South. And even when land is not purchased by aliens at the present moment the people who are most entitled to it, the agricultural workers and the smallholders, do not get it. I cannot see that it would be any solution of the problem to have, say, migrants from Donegal or from the West, sent to farms in South Cork. This motion seems to cater entirely for the West and seems to forget that there is considerable congestion in other parts of the country as well.

Both the Minister for External Affairs and the Minister for Lands sought, in the time at their disposal. to show that this motion was not a serious one and that the figures which I had given were not correct. But they produced no alternative set of figures which would challenge or contradict my figures except perhaps with reference to the moneys spent by the Land Commission during the three year period. The Minister for External Affairs says that between 1950 and 1954 only 1,000 acres were acquired by aliens, but in the next breath he gave figures of almost 18,000 acres which he says the Land Commission are now about to acquire from aliens. The Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, last week here gave us a list of 105 individuals who have between them 40,000 acres of the finest land in the Midlands. Many of these are, of course, aliens.

Some of that land is run by aliens. Is that land not available for the people of this country? I say again that between 1951 and 1954 a sum of almost £6,000,000 was spent by aliens on the purchase of land in this country and that they purchased between 130,000 and 150,000 acres of the most fertile land in Ireland in that period. Most of these purchases took place between 1940 and 1947, particularly between 1945 and 1947 when the Labour Government came into power in Britain and when many of these people left Britain to come here. It was a great benefit to Britain itself; we got them and they bought the finest land in Ireland in that ten-year period between 1941 and 1951. The Land Commission spent a certain sum on the purchase of land for the relief of congestion. In one year alone, 1947, aliens spent more on the purchase of land than the Land Commission spent in the ten-year period mentioned.

I do not care whether there was a standstill Order on the Land Commission or not. The fact is that they did not buy the land in an effort to solve congestion in that period. Because I suggested the last night that I was speaking here with no legal knowledge, it might be fair game for someone to say: "Withdraw your motion; the powers are there under Section 5 and Section 11 of the Aliens Act." If the powers are there under those sections how is it that this land has not been acquired? If the Minister for Justice has these powers, as I know he has, to prohibit aliens from living in any particular part of the country, from holding land in Roscommon, Galway, Mayo or anywhere else, and if he considers these aliens undesirable, why have no steps been taken by any Minister for Justice to prohibit the like of Mr. Satchwell and company from purchasing land in the West of Ireland and other areas? I may not be a legal expert but I know there are legal experts advising these aliens as to the proper manner in which to drive a coach and four through the laws as they are made, and I am afraid my efforts to see that the pool of land for the relief of congestion is enlarged are not going to meet with any success in this particular motion.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided : Tá 56; Níl: 73.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Butler, Bernard.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Alfred.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Madden, David J.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Davin, William.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finlay, Thomas A.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Connor, John.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Sheldon, William A.W.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers :— Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard; Níl : Deputies Doyle and Spring.
Motion put and declared lost.

A Cheann Comhairle, am I to understand that the motion will be put now?

The motion will be put if the Deputy wishes.

I think it would be a waste of time to put it to the House.

A Daniel come to judgment!

Barr
Roinn