Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 15 Dec 1955

Vol. 153 No. 11

Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. MacEntee

When the debate adjourned, last night, I was dealing with some matters which seemed to me to be of more than ordinary importance in relation to this Bill. I was asking whether it was not necessary to include in the interpretation section a more precise definition as to what was meant by certain expressions which appear in the Bill. I wish to refer to that matter for a moment now before I go on to deal with other points, which, I think, are worthy of the attention of the House.

One of the questions which I raised is: What is the definition of an affiliated coursing club? What conditions must a coursing club fulfil in order to be entitled to affiliation? I think that is very important because any person who reads the report of the advisory committee must certainly be unfavourably impressed by the stratagems to which the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club resorted in order to retain control of the affairs of that body. As these gentlemen are, apparently, under the Bill, going to be entrenched by law in the control of the greyhound industry it is surely of particular importance that we should ensure that they will not be able to adopt similar methods in the future to those which have enabled them to retain a grip on this industry during the past few years.

I have read the Bill carefully and it seems to me that the question of the right to affiliation is a matter which is going to be determined arbitrarily by the board. That is important, too, from another point of view. The membership of the club will comprise one representative member appointed by each affiliated coursing club entitled to hold coursing meetings authorised by the Irish Coursing Club. What is the basis of entitlement? The representative member must be appointed by a club which is entitled to hold coursing meetings. It seems to me that there should be some provision in this Bill stating what the basis of entitlement is. It is not set out in Section 36 nor, so far as I can recollect, anywhere in the Bill.

Another matter which I think is of importance is, even assuming that conditions are laid down which will ensure that all clubs properly entitled to be affiliated are affiliated and will receive a permit to hold coursing meetings, what assurance have we that the members representing the coursing clubs will have any real power to influence the policy of the executive committee and the policy of the board? I refer to that matter because I was refreshing myself by reading the report of the advisory committee which the Minister himself appointed, and I have been astounded by some of the strictures which were passed on the gentlemen who have been in control of this industry for so long.

Surely, having regard to the manner in which the meetings of the standing committee were conducted in the past and the manner in which the rules relating to the summoning of meetings have been wilfully ignored, it would seem in relation to the meetings of the executive committee, that there should be something in the Bill fixing a quorum in the absence of which meetings cannot be legally conducted. I have read through, as carefully as I could, Article 4 which deals with the composition of the executive committee of the club and I can see no reference in it to the fixing of a minimum attendance at a meeting as the quorum required to make a legally constituted meeting.

In view of the references in the report of the advisory committee as to the manner in which the meetings of the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club were conducted in former years, it would seem of the utmost importance that we should have something in the Bill that would ensure that the same sort of hole and corner methods should not be continued in future in order to retain control of this industry. It is the control of the industry which is here involved.

When the debate adjourned, I was in course of referring to many references which had been made to the position of the licensed bookmakers and the apprehensions with which they are filled as to the future developments, unfavourably affecting their position, which are likely to take place. These gentlemen do not speak without considerable experience. There were in 1931 or 1932, efforts made here to set up totalisators as monopolies attaching to certain greyhound racing tracks. In anticipation that the licences to do so, which had been previously granted would become effective, certain of the greyhound racing tracks at that time initiated very drastic measures to prevent bookmakers from carrying on their legitimate business inside their premises.

The fears which the bookmakers entertain as to the future position under the control of a board constituted as proposed under this Bill are therefore not entirely groundless. I am sure the Minister would not wish, any more than I would wish, that people who have been carrying on a legitimate business over a great number of years should be detrimentally affected in any undue way by reason of the Minister's attempts to reform the controlling body in charge of greyhound racing and greyhound coursing. The bookmakers, as we all know, are unpaid collectors of revenue, zealous collectors of revenue. They have to be, because if they do not they are subject to very severe penalties which may even involve them in imprisonment. The great majority of the bookmakers, in fact 99.99 per cent. of them, do their duty by the revenue. They have become very profitable licensees of the Minister for Finance. I think it would be true to say that they collect something approaching £2,000,000 per annum on his behalf.

I think they are entitled to be sympathetically considered by the Minister and that to allay their fears he will prescribe in the Bill some safeguards which will ensure that their right to earn their livelihood and carry on their occupation will not be unduly and unnecessarily interfered with.

Deputy Finlay, when dealing with the proposals in the Bill, said it was proposed to establish a monopoly which would be far reaching in its effect. I doubt, indeed, whether ever before any legislation was introduced into this House which was so comprehensive in the extent of the monopoly powers which are conferred upon a body already in existence. Let us remember what the origin of the Irish Coursing Club was. It was set up, not by any Act of the Legislature, not I think by virtue of any plebiscitary authority which it might have derived from the assent of those who were interested in coursing or racing. By its own fiat, it set itself up to control greyhound coursing and greyhound racing in this country.

Mr. A. Barry

Only coursing, not racing. The sport should be kept apart.

Mr. MacEntee

It has become a business and it is because of the extent to which the commercial interests have undermined the sporting instincts among our Irish people that we have now to bring in legislation to remedy the abuses which have sprung up because there have been so many opportunities for exploiting the powers which were assumed by a private voluntary body. These were assumptive; I have said they were taken by the individuals themselves who were able, by reason of the fact that they controlled the tracks, to impose their will and their wishes upon the great body of greyhound owners and greyhound breeders in this country.

Now we go further. The powers they assumed had no validity in law—they could have been upset by a strike or concerted action on the part of the greyhound owners and breeders at any time—but now the powers which these gentlemen assumed, we are going to confer on them by law. We are going to create a monopoly, and as Deputy Finlay warned us we should be very careful, when we create a monopoly of this sort, to ensure that we shall fully safeguard the public interest and, of course, the interests of all those particular individuals who will be affected by our action.

This Bill, as I said, is practically all-embracing in the extent of the monopoly which it proposes to confer. It does not merely confine itself to the better management and regulation of the sport. It does not merely concern itself with the supervision of coursing matches or greyhound racing meetings. It goes much further. For instance, in Section 39 it is going to control certain aspects and certain methods of breeding. Under Section 37 it will control training. Under Section 38 it will control sales and anybody who has any association with the industry knows one of the most serious complaints was on the manner in which certain salesmen attempted to monopolise the selling of dogs which were suitable for export. Under Section 41, it is going to subsidies and co-operate in the export of greyhounds. But it is going to go even further, under Section 41. This section, which is going to confer extraordinary powers on the board, proposes that:

"(1) The board may co-operate with and assist any person in connection with activities for the promotion and development of the export trade in greyhounds, including activities for the maintenance, training, racing, coursing and sale abroad of greyhounds which have been exported."

I think they are most extraordinary powers to give to any body of individuals. The Racing Board has not got these powers. The Racing Board, so far as I know, does not control sales except——

Mr. Dillon

The section says: "The board may co-operate with"; it does not say anything about control.

Mr. MacEntee

The section says it "may co-operate with", but is there any other body in the State that is going to be empowered to enter live animals in races abroad, and to race them?

Mr. Dillon

Surely the Deputy is misreading the section.

Mr. MacEntee

"The board may co-operate with and assist——"

Mr. Dillon

"Any person."

Mr. MacEntee

Yes, "in connection with activities for the promotion and development of the export trade in greyhounds, including activities for the maintenance, training, racing, coursing and sale abroad of greyhounds which have been exported." That is to say, the board can say to Tom, Dick or Harry: "Here is a Tanist or Ataxy— or perhaps some other well-known animal—take him and race him; we will pay all his expenses, take all the losses and you keep all the winnings." There is a lot of "heads I win, tails you lose," in this greyhound business. There is every possibility it may continue under Section 41 in view of the manner in which this board will be constituted.

This Bill has not come out of the blue. It is introduced into this House because of certain complaints which were made in relation to the greyhound racing industry. The Minister set up a committee to investigate these complaints. I am glad he did; it was an excellent thing to have done. As a result of it, we have these proposals under which the Minister proposes to put the whole greyhound industry under the control of the board which, in view of what I have said, is very properly to be styled as the Greyhound Industry Board. That board will control sales; it will control artificial insemination; it will control training, and it will engage in export activities; it will co-operate or assist in racing; it will in fact engage in all the business in which a private individual who owned a greyhound might engage.

Therefore, the key to the whole of this business is the board, its personnel, its constitution, its powers. Why, to revert to a question which I put last night but did not answer, has it become necessary to bring in this legislation? The Minister himself answered it in his opening speech. He said there were rather serious abuses. Any person who reads the report will agree with me that the phrase "rather serious abuses" is an understatement. There were very serious, very gross abuses, disclosed in the evidence and referred to in the report of the advisory committee. What were the results of the investigation which was conducted under the aegis of the Minister? I think that practically all the charges which were made were found to have been proven, charges of laxity in administration, allegations that malpractices had been tolerated because people prominent in control were not above suspicion. There were allegations touching the good faith and propriety of persons who virtually controlled the assets of the Irish Coursing Club and I should say that, having regard to the nature of the strictures which the report passed upon the conduct of those who were in control of the Irish Coursing Club, having regard to the allegations which the members of the advisory committee found to have substance, the report of the advisory committee itself was a very mild document.

In view of the seriousness of this situation and in view of the fact that we shall have to discuss these matters at greater length on the Committee Stage, it is not inadvisable that some of the statements made by the advisory committee should be put on the records of the House to be available to members to re-read. I assume most people have read them, that those who were members at the time the report was published have read them; but there have been changes in the composition of the Dáil since and these facts may not be in the minds of those who have since been elected to it.

Let me turn to page 40. I quote from paragraph 100, which refers to the conduct of meetings. In relation to that the committee said this:—

"We have little doubt that votes were recorded at some of these meetings by persons who, if the constitution were enforced, were not entitled to be present, i.e., representatives of coursing clubs which had ceased to hold coursing meetings and ‘elected members' who had consistently absented themselves from general meetings, or who had failed to pay their subscriptions."

The comment of the advisory committee on that finding is:—

"The failure of the Irish Coursing Club to enforce the rules regarding attendances and the consequent participation of unqualified delegates in the business of meetings would, of course, affect the validity of decisions arrived at during those meetings."

Later, in paragraph 101, the committee states:—

"Other witnesses went further, in alleging that no criticism of the system of administration, however genuine, would be tolerated."

As proof of the frame of mind, the general attitude and mentality of the people who constituted the standing committee at that time, the committee stated:—

"Correspondence placed before the committee showed that officials of the Irish Coursing Club took severe exception to the formation of the owners' association and went so far as to propose the introduction of a special article to the constitution in the following terms:—

Any person bound by these rules who publishes or causes to be published in the public Press any matter which could fairly be regarded as propaganda hostile to the Irish Coursing Club shall be guilty of the offence of disloyalty to the constitution.... Any person who shall be guilty of an offence under this rule shall be liable to be warned-off or suspended."

These are the little greyhound Hitlers to whom the Minister proposes to hand over the control of the greyhound industry in this country under this Bill.

In relation to the possible composition of the board, we have to remember that four of the six ordinary members, the six members other than the chairman, who is to be appointed by the Minister—four of the six ordinary members who under this Bill will be appointed must be members of the club. There, of course, the old question arises—I raised it in my opening remarks—as to the extent to which the representatives of the affiliated coursing clubs will in fact be able to influence the conduct of what will now be styled the executive committee of the club.

In relation to this matter I think it is relevant to quote what the advisory committee did find in regard to this matter. I am quoting now from paragraph 105 of the report. It said:—

"It was asserted that the representatives of racing tracks exercise an influence in the standing committee out of all proportion to their numbers."

Then, having examined this, the advisory committee's report goes on to say:—

"The present position, however, is that of the 21 members comprising the committee, not less than 13, including ex officio members, are directly connected with racing tracks and have financial interests therein.”

Later, in paragraph 106, the committee reports:—

"Some witnesses were emphatic in expressing the view that the administrative officials who are members of the standing committee exercise more than a normal influence on proceedings at meetings of the committee and on decisions reached thereat. We are inclined to agree with this view...."

Later, in paragraph 107, the committee reported:—

"...Many witnesses alleged that no action whatever was taken on a number of serious complaints made by them. Others stated that grave irregularities often went unreported, because insufficient supervisory stewards were employed. Indeed, representatives of the Irish Coursing Club stated that they were not satisfied with the performance of a number of their stewards, and asserted that the club was not in a position financially to offer the higher salaries necessary to command the services of more reliable officials, or to employ them in sufficient numbers..."

The committee later examined the question of the financial resources of the Irish Coursing Club and certainly they did not find that the excuses offered to them had any substance in fact. Indeed the committee, in this same paragraph, goes on to say:—

"It is apparent from references to the finances of the club in the succeeding section that the club, plus its subsidiary companies, is in reality a wealthy organisation and that it could readily have afforded the necessary outlay on the employment of sufficient supervisory staff."

Before I turn to the Schedule I want to point to a few further passages. There are so many of these passages that it is very difficult to restrict one's quotations from the report. I should like to point to one passage referring to the Greyhound and Sporting Press. The passage is as follows:—

"The Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, appears to have been remarkably successful from the outset, and the value of its assets, including buildings and equipment, is estimated by the Irish Coursing Club to be at present at least £60,000. This estimate includes buildings which were erected in recent years at a cost of approximately £14,000, and includes also plant and equipment said to have cost £18,000.”

There are references to Powerstown Park, Limited, and in this connection the report says:—

"Powerstown Park, Limited, is a private company with a paid up capital of £10,000. The company was formed in 1932 by the Irish Coursing Club, mainly to establish a permanent national coursing ground, and to that end, to purchase the property known as Powerstown Park Racecourse. Previous to the formation of the company the Irish Coursing Club had held coursing meetings on this property and had paid rent therefor. The company carries on the business of horse-racing and other activities related thereto. The shareholders of the company, who are nominees of the Irish Coursing Club, executed in April, 1932, a deed of trust, under which they acknowledged that they held their shares in trust for the Irish Coursing Club and were prepared to act in all respects under the direction of the club, as expressed or contained in resolutions from time to time passed by the standing committee."

How did the club direct these trustees to act in its interests? Here is what the committee have to say on the subject:—

"As in the case of the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, and although Powerstown Park, Limited, appears to be a prosperous undertaking, no contribution whatever appears to have been made by it to the funds of the Irish Coursing Club. Indeed the Irish Coursing Club actually pays £100 per annum for the right to hold coursing meetings on its own lands at Powerstown Park. Profits made by Powerstown Park, Limited, have been utilised to increase the company's assets.”

But they were not employed for the purpose of developing the greyhound industry in Ireland.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Deputy give the reference?

Mr. MacEntee

I am quoting from paragraph 114 of the report. I do not wish to weary the House by reading from the report, but I do think it is one of the most revealing documents I have ever seen. It only shows how really astute these gentlemen were, not babes in the kindergarten, as Deputy A. Barry led us to believe in his speech. These really very astute gentlemen utilised these assets, which they held under deed of trust for the Irish Coursing Club, for their own advantage. I do not want to say any more on that subject.

Mr. Dillon

Why do you say that?

Mr. MacEntee

It is quite clear the reason I am saying it is that I see among other things that there have been references here to the officials of the Irish Coursing Club. There are references to the fact that the Irish Coursing Club had to pay to the Powerstown Park Company £100 a year for the right to hold coursing meetings on their own ground. What do we find in paragraph 113? We find, according to the report, that:—

"The senior joint secretary of the Irish Coursing Club acts as salaried manager of Powerstown Park, Limited, and in consideration of payment of an agreed annual sum, is entitled, while acting in this capacity, to reside in Powerstown House and to use the lands of Powerstown Demesne, comprising about 130 acres, except at such times as portion of them is required for coursing or racing."

Further back, if the Minister wants to refresh his memory, we find in paragraph 109 that:—

"In 1924, the Irish Coursing Club decided to promote, jointly with the secretary of the club, a publication to be known as The Coursing Calendar which was to become the official organ of the Irish Coursing Club. By 1928, this paper was firmly established. The club then decided by resolution to take complete responsibility for the paper and for this purpose incorporated a company known as the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited, of which the share capital of £5,000 was subscribed from the funds of the Irish Coursing Club.”

Later on, in paragraph 110 we are told:—

"The Greyhound and Sporting Press Limited appears to have been remarkably successful from the outset, and the value of its assets, including buildings and equipment, is estimated by the Irish Coursing Club to be at present at least £60,000. This estimate includes buildings which were erected in recent years at a cost of approximately £14,000 and includes who also plant and equipment said to have cost £18,000.”

I do not want to go into all these matters at length. The only reason why I am raising them is because of the proposal in the Bill to establish a finance committee. In Article 8 of the Schedule we find the following provision:—

"There shall be a sub-committee of the executive committee (in this constitution referred to as the finance sub-committee) with responsibility for keeping under review the financial affairs of the club and its subsidiary interests (including Powerstown Park, Limited, and the Greyhound and Sporting Press, Limited), and for making reports and recommendations thereon to the executive committee.”

I want to know what is going to be the position of the several officers of the subsidiary companies who are referred to in this report? What is their position going to be in relation to the finance committee of the reformed, reconstituted Irish Coursing Club? Does not the Minister think it is rather important we should make certain in this legislation that not merely will the active executives of the subsidiary companies be debarred and disqualified from membership of the finance committee and the executive committee of the new Irish Coursing Club, but that also in the accounts presented to this House in the future there would be a clear statement as to the remuneration and emoluments which are received by the officials of the Irish Coursing Club.

I shall not go any further than to say that members of the old Irish Coursing Club and the standing committee have shown themselves to be particularly astute gentlemen when they have been handling the affairs of the club and dealing with the club's assets. They have not, perhaps, done anything which would make them amenable to the law but certainly there is a rather unsavoury appearance to the whole set-up, and, as the Minister is now going to the trouble to seek to provide legislation to give the club legal existence, I think we should take particular pains to ensure that everything will be clean and above-board. It would be quite wrong for the Minister to give to this body a monopoly so wide as to embrace the breeding, racing, export and sale by auction of greyhounds unless he is going to make sure that the whole of the existing situation will be properly cleared up—I think I might use the word "cleaned" up.

There is quite a number of other points which will arise on this Bill. I am not opposed to it: I welcome the attempt which the Minister is making to put the industry on a sound foundation, but it must be a sound foundation, and I cannot conceive that it will be sound so long as the representatives of the existing Irish Coursing Club—and it will not be the reformed club—are there. The Minister is giving these gentlemen three years more to dig themselves in. They are expert manipulators; everybody who has any knowledge of this problem knows that, and if the Minister is going to allow them to have a majority of two to one over the ordinary members, then dig themselves in they will.

I think there is a good deal of substance in what the Minister has said to the effect that they should have some representation on the board, that you cannot throw out the dirty water until you have got in the clean, and that you should not change horses while crossing the stream, but still the Minister need not go as far as he has done in the Bill. It will be quite sufficient, and I think most people who are interested both in sport and in the industry in this country, would welcome it, if the Minister were to say, having heard the views expressed in this House: "I am not going to give the Irish Coursing Club representation per se, but I will, as a gentleman's arrangement, agree that two members of the board will represent what might possibly be described as the old-established vested interest here in the industry, but that the other four members will be members who will be more truly representative of the people who are the backbone of the greyhound-breeding industry and sport in this country; that at least two of these people will represent the breeders and coursing clubs and that one other, perhaps, will represent the bookmakers— perhaps two, but at least one.”

That will give the bookmakers the same assurance as they have enjoyed in relation to the Irish Racing Board. I know it has not wholly satisfied the bookmakers in regard to the Irish Racing Board, but at least it has given them the comfort of having some spokesman, some representation on the board which controls their whole livelihood, so far as those who confine themselves to racecourse bookmaking are concerned. I think it would not be a bad idea if the Minister were to do that in regard to this board. I only hope that when we come to the Committee Stage, we will do something to remove the difficulty I see in regard to the board which I regard as the key of the whole Bill and, of course, the factor which will determine for good or ill what is to be the future of the greyhound-breeding industry in this country.

Mr. McQuillan

I want to welcome the Bill now before the House. There is only one point that I wish to raise with the Minister on it. I am sure, although I have not been present for the debate so far for any length of time this point has already been raised by some other speaker but I would like to have it on record that I mentioned it during the course of the discussion.

The Minister, I am sure, is serious in his efforts to put the greyhound industry on an honest and satisfactory basis and I feel sure he has no desire while trying to achieve that to do harm or to be hurtful to any of the interests concerned in that industry. In this Bill there is one particular section, Section 22, which struck me as being rather drastic. It is in connection with the powers about to be given to this board, the powers that will be conferred under this Bill when it becomes law. I feel it is going a bit too far to give these powers to that particular body. It means that the livelihood, the life and death of all concerned in the industry, will be in the hands of the people who compose or comprise this board.

Many Deputies have expressed their views on a number of occasions with regard to the powers given to State and semi-State bodies and most of us desire that these powers should come to a greater extent under the control of the House. I think the members of the present Government when in office during the first inter-Party régime were actually inquiring into the possibilities of preparing machinery which would bring State or semi-State bodies more directly under the control of the House. In other words, the feeling was that State bodies were too independent altogether. There may be a different argument put up with regard to this particular board but I do suggest it is going too far to say that there will be no appeal from the decisions made by this board. Human nature being what it is, we have no guarantee that certain members of this board may not be prejudiced against particular individuals who may come before it in any aspect of their duties.

Mr. A. Barry

You gave the same powers to the Racing Board, did you not?

Mr. Briscoe

They were not the same.

Mr. McQuillan

As far as I am concerned, I was not in this House in 1945 when the Racing Board was set up. Apart from that, I am merely speaking on this question of the greyhound industry. The position is that this board may make whatever conditions it likes and can attach any conditions it likes to the issue of permits, licences and anything else. It may be difficult to get over that point but I presume the Minister's argument will be to the effect that if the board does not do its duties the members can be replaced at the end of 12 months or at the end of their period of office. But meantime the damage may have been done and a man may lose his livelihood or a group of people may lose their livelihoods, and it would be no satisfaction to them to know that at the end of the period of office of the members of the board the Minister will say to them: "Gentlemen, I no longer require your services: you have not been satisfactory."

I believe there should be some machinery available whereby appeals made to the board can receive just and sympathetic consideration. As it stands, if a man gets notice from the board that his rights are terminated or his permit withdrawn, he has power to appeal within seven days and that appeal may be considered—these are the words—but there is no suggestion that there will be a favourable decision and no suggestion that the rights of the individual will be safeguarded.

I think too much power has been conferred on the board in the Bill. Personally I cannot offer an alternative but I am sure the Minister in his wisdom, and with the advice available to him in his Department, will be able to relieve the fears of many people especially in view of what has been said about the probable membership of this board in its first three-year period. If it should be possible that a right of appeal could exist to our courts, I think it would be very desirable that that aspect of the matter should be considered. It may be that the Minister has a sound argument that there should be no right of appeal to himself. I can well picture the Minister's position with regard to that; he would need a special staff to look after the complaints that would be made.

I think he is right in not having any machinery available whereby an appeal can be made to him or to anybody else, but I see no reason in the world why there should not be the right of appeal by a person who feels an injustice has been done to him. I see no reason why a right of appeal could not be given to such a person to go to, say, the Circuit Court and have his case examined by a neutral judicial authority. I ask the Minister to give very serious consideration to that point before the Committee Stage.

Mr. Coogan

I want to comment briefly on one or two points. I appeal to the Minister to give greater representation to the bookmakers on this proposed board. The question of the right of private enterprise also arises inasmuch as a bookmaker may have a known pitch and I appeal to the Minister to ensure that that pitch will not be taken for the erection of a tote. On the question of admission charges to bookmakers, I suggest they should be on the same basis as heretofore. The bookmakers feel that to a certain extent they may be made "hares" of where these admission fees are concerned and put off the track altogether. These are the points I wish to bring to the attention of the Minister.

Mr. MacCarthy

I have not a great deal to say because I speak as one who has not been three times on a racetrack in my life but one who has followed open coursing since his earliest days and who occasionally enjoys that sport still.

The main purpose of this Bill is to organise the industry on a democratic basis. Instead of starting at the board we ought to start at the foundation, at the parish or local end, where the humblest man in the most modest home can rear and train a greyhound and be in or out of the local coursing club of his own volition. If he wants to co-operate with others and have the sport organised locally on a sound basis it is desirable that he should be a member of such a club and the only obstacle would be that the fee might be too high and he might not in consequence elect to join the local club.

The whole strength of the industry is based on its growth down the years in the open coursing and on the track, and in the attractive prizes offered and the ultimate successful sale of the dogs.

Success in coursing or on the track was the passport to a better sale. When the industry became big business, so to speak, the tracks were established and we had people manoeuvring, singly and in combines through the purchase of shares, to control the interests of these tracks. It is in the selection of dogs for particular races that suspicions can arise as a result of that manoeuvring. In open coursing and in park coursing there is, as the Minister knows, an open draw held in public of the dogs entered in the ordinary normal way in these events; everybody is entitled to be present and can see for himself that the draw is fairly made. In the track events, however, trials are held and that is another matter. I cannot speak about it really because I know nothing about it, and I want to know nothing about it.

I am, on the other hand, very interested in the greyhound industry because it is a sport which has grown up amongst the rural community. It is a sport which can be enjoyed in spring and winter and autumn, going around beating for a hare and having a few courses. It is outdoor exercise. In the track meetings there is very little cause for complaint. If the organisation is built up on the parish or local unit, with representatives being elected in the ordinary way and regular meetings held for the control of these coursing matches, and the whole thing is on a provincial basis, the matter can be dealt with very easily because those who are interested in the ownership, the breeding and training of the dogs will have their say. If there are any mistakes the fault will be their own.

I saw some people here last night who were very interested in the debate. Some of them control tracks themselves at the moment. I suppose one cannot find fault with them for looking after their own interests. I can support in great measure the suggestion made by Deputy Briscoe that a period of 12 months should be allowed during which the industry could organise itself and put its house in order. At the end of that period we could come then to the constitution of the board which will exercise a certain control over the sport in relation to the running of tracks, their number, finances and all the rest.

I agree with Deputy Briscoe, too, in relation to representation by the bookmakers. They form an important part of this sport and they should have a say at the highest level where their interests are affected. Furthermore, if they have such a say, they will not be able subsequently to wash their hands clean of what may be happening. I do not wish to go into detail at this stage, but I think this Bill will have to be examined section by section very closely in Committee. I appeal to the Minister to remember that what must be kept to the forefront is the fact that the ordinary man will not be exploited and that the public will neither be exploited nor deceived by the unfair selection of greyhounds for particular races and the putting in of certain dogs on certain occasions in order to bring off a coup. Such has happened in the past. We have heard these things mentioned in the course of this debate. It is not easy to achieve perfection and I am not prepared to call the people who have been in this racing business over the years any names, good or bad, because I do not know sufficient about them to assess either their merits or their demerits.

The only remark I should like to make is, that by their blundering progress, an industry has grown up. It has now come to the stage when more control over activities is necessary. This Bill proposes to do that. I think we ought to examine it very carefully, stage by stage, so that when we are finished with it, the board which will have such a big say in the control of the industry will be set up in a democratic way.

Mr. J. Flynn

Like Deputy MacCarthy I have very little experience of coursing and the greyhound industry but I have received representations from people in my own county who are the backbone of the industry in this country. They have asked me to make representations to the Minister in regard to various aspects of this proposed legislation. They informed me that the people down the country who are in the industry have no confidence in the existing arrangements or in the Irish Coursing Club. I am not in a position to dispute that or to say whether it is right or wrong but we know the position that has existed over the years.

It would appear that the coursing clubs referred to by Deputy MacCarthy receive very little financial assistance from the Irish Coursing Club from time to time. They make the point that the Minister should, in regard to the formation of this board, limit the number of nominees from the Irish Coursing Club. I have listened to the Minister here when he stated that we should utilise this Irish Coursing Club as the basis for our approach to this matter and that we should utilise the machinery that is there to enable him to form the board and to set up proper machinery. Judging from what has been said here, what we have been told, and what has been proved from evidence submitted at the inquiry that club was not satisfactory in the past and I would ask the Minister to establish a more even balance.

I am an outsider as far as the industry is concerned but, from what the Minister, other Deputies and people down the country have said, I think the best way to deal with the matter would be to give representation to all the interests concerned, the breeders, the bookmakers, the track owners and so on and to limit the number from the Irish Coursing Club. I am sure that the Minister is anxious to see the industry flourishing in the country and to have the best possible personnel in charge of it. I think the best possible way out would be to have two nominees from the Irish Coursing Club, and one each from the other organisations. I submit to the Minister that that would be a fair basis to go on in his efforts to stabilise this industry and to permit it to flourish in a proper way.

A point was made by Deputy McQuillan with regard to the powers of the proposed board and I would ask the Minister if he would receive amendments to Section 22. I was very much impressed by the appeal made by Deputy Collins yesterday evening when he asked the Minister to give an opportunity to a Committee of this House to examine the matter before he finally puts this measure through the House.

I am confident that the Minister will be impressed by what has been said by every Deputy that I have heard speak on this matter. They are all anxious to see the best possible approach to this legislation. I have no knowledge of these people in the Irish Coursing Club. I am not acquainted with any of them but I was impressed by the representations made to me by men from my own county who are the backbone of the coursing industry in the country and who know what they are speaking about. As their representative I have no option but to accept their views on the matter and I am confident that the Minister will be impressed by the manner in which they have put up their case.

I am not blaming the Irish Coursing Club in any way because even with the best intentions in the world there will be discrepancies and evasions of regulations but, in order to have the matter on a proper democratic basis, my appeal to the Minister is that a proper balance should be maintained between the different interests. There is a danger that if one party gets control of the board and has a monopoly the initiative, energy and interest of the small man down the country will disappear. The clubs in the country will slowly but surely lose interest in the industry because they will have no confidence in the people in control.

We have had sorry experiences of State-controlled bodies in this country, bodies which were set up and given extraordinary powers. At the time they were set up, it may have been essential to give them these powers but in later years it was found difficult to reconcile the activities of the State-sponsored bodies with democratic principles. Too much power has been allotted to these people and in my opinion there is a danger if you do not preserve a proper balance between the members of the organisation who had a monopoly in the past. If you nominate them and put them back in control again, the last stage will be worse then the first. I am certain the Minister is anxious to find the best possible way out of these difficulties and to have the best proposals put forward. I hope he will accept my suggestion in regard to these matters, that if we submit amendments later he will consider them favourably.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think I am unreasonable if I express some impatience with the observations of Deputy MacEntee. Deputy MacEntee purports to draw a terrible picture of terrible things that were happening under the administration of the Irish Coursing Club during the past 20 years. Of that 20 years, Deputy MacEntee was a member of the Government for 16. Did he or any of his colleagues in any part of that 16 years raise a finger to attempt the reform of what he now alleges were notorious scandals, and if he did not, why did he not? After the 16 years in which Fianna Fáil were in office, we came into office in 1948 and I then appointed a commission.

Mr. Walsh

You were driven to appoint a commission.

Mr. Dillon

I then appointed a commission without representations of any sort, kind or description reaching me from anybody except——

Mr. Walsh

Except the greyhound owners.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think I rudely interrupted the Deputy when he was speaking and I would ask him to forbear from doing so when I am speaking.

Mr. Walsh

If you tell the truth we will bear with you.

Mr. Dillon

I therefore appointed a commission which heard evidence and which presented its report to Deputy Walsh, as Minister. Deputy Walsh was in office for two years after he got that report. He knows that I know that he spent a great deal of time cogitating a variety of proposals but he left office without producing any proposal. Is that not so?

Mr. Walsh

Explain the reason why.

Mr. Dillon

I suppose he found the difficulties too great.

Mr. Walsh

No.

Mr. Dillon

I came into office again and produced a Bill, a poor thing but mine own. Of course, immediately everybody in Fianna Fáil stands up and says: "It is a grand thing to bring in this Bill but here are a number of things you ought not to do." Let me say to the House that you cannot will the end if you are not prepared to will the means. I do not expect that any Bill that I bring in will please everybody. In fact, it is inevitable that if it is a good Bill it will not please anybody 100 per cent. I think, however, everybody will say: "Parliament has gone as far as they can go to avoid interfering with our legitimate interests while serving the overriding interests of putting the whole of this industry on a satisfactory basis."

I am introducing a Bill here, not for the purpose of conferring on the Minister for Agriculture powers to run the greyhound industry but to confer on the greyhound industry itself powers which, if properly used, will preserve the prosperity and stability of their own industry. But am I not right in saying that if the members of the greyhound industry themselves are not prepared to make the exertions necessary effectively to use these powers there is nothing Dáil Éireann can do about it?

One of the conditions precedent to introducing this legislation was that there should be incorporated in the Schedule to the Bill and submitted to Dáil Éireann a new constitution for the Irish Coursing Club which placed upon them the obligation for a period of two and a half years to secure an executive for the Irish Coursing Club, every single member of which would be democratically elected by the coursing clubs and racetracks in a fair proportion. Is there any other better way in which you can secure democratic control?

Mr. Walsh

No. Do not appoint your board until you have that done.

Mr. Dillon

We are all agreed about that. I think we are all agreed that if you get such a democratically controlled body it is a good thing that they should exercise a predominant influence.

Mr. Briscoe

There is no doubt about that.

Mr. Dillon

Then we are brought down to this point. When you go to appoint the first board, do not give the undertaking that you will choose four of the seven members from the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club. I want to remind the Deputies that Oireachtas Éireann passed the Horse Racing Bill in 1945 and this Oireachtas unanimously accepted the principle that we should give to the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Club an absolute majority on the Racing Board.

Mr. Walsh

But there is no analogy in the administration of the two.

Mr. Dillon

I may be an old-fashioned person but what I think is strange is that these two bodies were constituted almost exclusively from what used to be called the ascendancy in this country and I am asked now, having personally and vicariously for a century sought to take the hands of the ascendancy off the throats of our people, to lay down this principle in Oireachtas Éireann that if you have the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Club exclusively manned by the representatives of the ascendancy, who are not our kind of people, the Oireachtas should say: "Certainly. When you are setting up a statutory racing board they must have a majority" while when you are dealing with the Irish Coursing Club, which is constituted by and large, and will be constituted by and large, by our own kind of people, that Oireachtas Éireann should say "No."

Mr. Walsh

I hope not.

Mr. Dillon

Hear me out. "We cannot allow these common people to have the same kind of control we reserve for the gentry. These are common people and we must view them with suspicion and distrust." These are the words that Arthur Balfour would have used. This is the attitude that Arthur Balfour confidently upheld. Is that not true? The only offence we have against these people is that they are our kind of people. Are we to take up the position that because they are our kind of people we cannot trust them? Mark this—I appoint four of the existing Irish Coursing Club executive. In six months' time after the passing of this Bill, seven members of the 21 members of the executive must by lot retire from the executive and go for election. Suppose three of the four that I have chosen for the committee of management happen to come out of the hat to retire from the executive of the Irish Coursing Club and go for election and they do not get re-elected they must all retire from the board of management immediately. Therefore, unless they are elected, chosen democratically, by the clubs and racetracks under the scheme envisaged in the Bill they go out of office at once.

I think you can abuse people, belittle people and deride them but is it not the fact that the Irish Coursing Club started in 1916 as a body of coursing men to control coursing and there then came upon them what was in those days the phenomenon of greyhound track racing, in 1923 or 1924? There was nobody to control greyhound track racing. Personally, with the benefit of hind-sight, I think they would have been well advised to say: "We will have nothing to do with it. Let them set up some other body to control that." But people are not always as wise in anticipation as we can be in retrospect.

Mr. T. Walsh

There was money in it. That is why.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know why Deputy Walsh wants always to assign base motives.

Mr. T. Walsh

Six or seven good men and true, men of integrity, told me that.

Mr. Dillon

It is probably true that in 1924, when they made that decision, they bit off more than they could chew and they undertook to control something that they were not equipped to control and had not the resources to build up the machine to control. We all know that abuses did develop. It was because these abuses were in existence that I thought it expedient to set up that commission so that we could find a way of putting right what was wrong. I think it is a mean kind of thing to slander and deride.

Mr. T. Walsh

Slander? My goodness—no slander.

Mr. Dillon

I met a good many fellows in the Irish Coursing Club. I do not suppose they are angels—I do not suppose any of us is an angel—but, by and large, most of the coursing fellows that I met at coursing meetings were decent chaps.

Mr. T. Walsh

Yes, that is right, but they do not control.

Mr. Dillon

My obligation is not to appoint four persons proposed to me by the executive of the Irish Coursing Club. My undertaking is that I will pick four out of the 21 members of the executive. They have no power to say to me: "Here are the four that you must appoint." All I am undertaking to do is that I will choose four from their number and that is subject to this proviso that seven of the 21—and it may contain the whole four or three of the four or two of the four—must go for election in six months at the hands of the clubs and racetracks and if they are not elected they will cease to be members of the control board. Then, 12 months later, another seven must go and if any one of them happens to be on the board of control and does not get elected, he must go and, finally, the last seven must go and they become elected members or cease to be eligible for membership of the board of control.

I can see that many Deputies may say: "Why do you not hold an election? Is not that the simple thing to do, and have a new start?" As the debate has gone on, I think more and more Deputies have come around to my point of view, that it is not a good thing; it is not a good way to get continuity and to avoid quite unnecessary upheaval.

Mr. T. Walsh

Who, do you think, will be appointed by the coursing clubs? Some racehorse owner? Will it not be a person who represents the greyhound industry?

Mr. Dillon

Is there not a good deal to be said——

Mr. T. Walsh

Very little.

Mr. Dillon

I think there is a good deal to be said for doing it in three stages so that you will preserve some continuity and will not envisage the possibility of all the men who have been for 40 years closely associated with this business being pushed out and a whole new 21 coming in. I can see there are two points of view about it but I am pretty certain that I am right in that and Deputy MacEntee is prepared to say that he thinks there is virtue in that proposal too, that he thinks it should work in places.

Mr. McQuillan

It works all right so far as the Cabinet is concerned.

Mr. Dillon

No it does not and would not work and any man who has experience of being in Government will tell you that.

Mr. McQuillan

I mean a general election may change the complete Government.

Mr. Dillon

Yes. It would be disastrous if you tried to set up Government every now and again with nobody in it with any experience of Government. We were very fortunate in the early stages of the State that we were able to get away with that without serious injury to the State. I see there are two points of view about it and I think the argument for continuity should prevail.

I am particularly anxious that we should not accept the proposition that what was done in respect of the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Club was perfectly proper but that, when we are taking a similar measure in regard to our own kind of people, we should turn our backs upon that procedure and say that it will not do. I do not agree with that view. It is true that the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Club have never been asked to move over on to a democratic electoral basis. The Irish Coursing Club is being required to do that and the continued holding of office of people chosen by me as members of the board of management depends on their success in being freely chosen through the democratic electoral process either in six months, 18 months or 30 months after the passage of this Bill.

Deputy McQuillan mentioned the power in Section 22 to license racetracks. The power as to race courses is vested in the National Hunt Club. There is no appeal at all.

Mr. McQuillan

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Mr. Dillon

I quite agree but then, in addition to that, one has to bear in mind that very often what is theoretically eminently desirable, in practice proves to be wholly unnecessary. It is not a matter of principle with me. I would not feel very exercised about it but it appears to have worked in regard to horse-racing to leave this matter to the horse-racing authority itself and no difficulty has presented itself so far but, if somebody pressed on me very strongly that there ought to be some appeal to a Circuit Court judge or some authority of that kind, it is not a matter of principle with me. However I am not sure if it is necessary and I do not think we ought to put into legislation elaborate Health Robinson devices if circumstances do not warrant their creation.

Mr. McQuillan

The only reason I mentioned it was that several different groups associated with the greyhound industry asked me to mention their views. I said that under no circumstances would I act as a pressure agent for them, but each group that I spoke to, or that spoke to me, felt that the question of some right of appeal was one of the most important grievances they had.

Mr. Dillon

It is not a matter I feel very strongly about at all. All I can say is that as far as horse-racing is concerned it does not ever seem to have arisen. Anybody who ever applied for a licence and complied with the requisite terms seems to have had no difficulty and I have never heard of anyone seeking a tribunal to which they could appeal from the Irish National Hunt Club.

Mr. Briscoe

Except what is in the day's paper.

Mr. Dillon

It is not a matter of principle with me. If the House thinks that there should be an appeal, I do not see any objection in principle to providing it but if it is not the wish of the House I do not think we should be putting in elaborate machinery which generally people do not think necessary.

Mr. Briscoe

Has the Minister left the point regarding the first seven members of the board? He has not dealt with the arguments about the majority and as to whether there should be three or four——

Mr. Dillon

I propose to appoint four members from the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club and I am directing the attention of Deputies most specially to the fact that it would seem as if we were treating this body on an entirely different basis from the basis on which we treated the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Committee. I would point out specially that seven of the members of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club must retire in six months by lot. If any of them fail to be elected democratically they cease to be members.

Mr. Briscoe

The Minister could reappoint the same four for the next seven years.

Mr. Dillon

They will be all appointed, but then six months after the Bill passes the names of seven of the 21 members of the Irish Coursing Club executive must be drawn by lot and they have to be submitted for election.

Mr. Walsh

To whom?

Mr. Dillon

To the clubs and tracks, as provided in the Bill.

Mr. Walsh

There is no difficulty about them. There is nothing to prevent these people from being elected.

Mr. Dillon

Seven members of the executive must retire and they must sit for election. Supposing that of those seven there are one, two, three or four of the people whom I have chosen as members of the board of management who submit themselves for election and who fail to get elected, they will cease to be members of the board.

Mr. Briscoe

I tried to point out yesterday that the Minister should consider a shorter period than what is in the Bill for the appointment of this board and that meanwhile election should take place, because there is a bit of confusion in my mind about the executive and the board. The board consists of seven members and four of those are Irish Coursing Club members.

Mr. Dillon

That is right.

Mr. Briscoe

I have tried to persuade the Minister to realise that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the present executive, and if the board is going to be controlled by a body of four members of the present executive the Minister ought to reconsider that. Why not let the clubs and tracks elect their executive in a freely democratic election? The Minister can choose four. I think the Minister would allay a great many fears if he would consider my suggestions.

Mr. Dillon

I would not like to mislead the Deputy. I was going to choose myself, without any direction from the executive of the Irish Coursing Club, the four responsible persons who I believe are trustworthy and sound from the 21 members of the existing Irish Coursing Club, in the knowledge that in their turn they will have to go by lot for election and that if they fail in getting elected they will cease to be members of the club.

Mr. Walsh

What point is the Minister trying to stress regarding the election? All these are elected representatives of the clubs and tracks. I know that there are two sections among the membership—the elected members and the elected representatives. I take it that of the 21 who comprise the standing committee at the present time, 17 or 18 may be representatives of clubs.

Mr. Dillon

Provision for future election is fully democratic.

Mr. Walsh

Nobody disagrees there.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to choose four out of the 21 in the knowledge——

Mr. Briscoe

How long will they last?

Mr. Dillon

Only so long as they are elected by the clubs and tracks under the procedure provided for in the new constitution of the Irish Coursing Club as is scheduled in this Bill. If they be so elected, their term of office is five years.

Mr. Walsh

They are five year terms, not six months.

Mr. Dillon

Do not let us get cross about it.

Mr. Walsh

Nobody is getting cross.

Mr. Dillon

We may differ but that is the position. I am not prepared to treat the executive of the Irish Coursing Club as a body composed of inferior persons as compared with the Turf Club or the Irish National Hunt Committee because the personnel of the one is as important as that of the other.

Mr. Walsh

Was not the reverse demonstrated on the report of the commission the Minister set up—that these people were not competent to run the affairs of the Irish Coursing Club or of coursing or track racing?

Mr. Dillon

All of us who read the report are entitled to form our own judgment but I am not going to be a party to the proposition that what was good enough for the Turf Club and the National Hunt Committee is not good enough for the commonality to which I belong. That is Deputy Walsh's view but surely I am entitled to my view. That is the plain fact. May be we cannot reach agreement but at least we can agree to differ. I hope I have made my position clear. It would have been very easy for me to have misled Dáil Éireann and to say I would not bind myself and then to go behind the backs of Dáil Éireann and appoint my four men from the 21, having reassured Dáil Éireann that I was under no obligation to do so. I think that would have been dishonest. If I am going to do that, I think it is my duty to tell Dáil Éireann and then to do it with their knowledge and consent.

I feel sure we will all agree that after three elections have taken place, in which the whole 21 members of the executive have been chosen by election, it is a good thing thereafter that the four should be drawn from that elected body but I do ask Deputies to bear in mind that if, for the purpose of avoiding opposition, I will say now I will drop that obligation, that would leave me perfectly free to choose the same four men. But I think that would be a devious way of doing things when I had the obligation to be perfectly frank with the Dáil.

Mr. Briscoe

Is is not a fact that when this Bill becomes an Act and the board is set up, the board will have additional duties over and above what the Irish Coursing Club has had previously and that additional interests and responsibilities will be brought under their control?

Mr. Dillon

Of course, this board will have much wider duties because the whole purpose of the Bill is to build up the greyhound industry in this country. The reason why we have to impose levies and taxation on totalisator and on the bookmakers is to enable this board to do for greyhound racing what the Turf Club and the National Hunt Committee did for horse-racing. The horse-racing industry was largely built up here by the fact that the Racing Board was able to provide the revenue out of taxation on the totalisator and on the bookmakers. They were able to provide increased State moneys, and to provide owners with facilities for the transport of their animals to race meetings. They were able to give improved amenities to the bookmakers as well. When the proposal which enables all these things to occur was introduced bookmakers were greatly alarmed and distressed and thought they were to be wiped out. I could agree with the Deputies that this board will have much wider powers, but it will also have much wider duties and responsibilities, and so we propose to have an independent chairman and we propose to have this board of management appointed by the Minister for Agriculture for the time being. In the last analysis I will have to answer to Dáil Éireann for the performance——

Mr. Walsh

With four people who have already proved their incompetence?

Mr. Dillon

In the last analysis, it is I who will have to answer to Dáil Éireann for the personnel and the performance of this board. If the board appointed by me should fail to do its job whose is the responsibility?

Mr. Briscoe

Make it three-three and a chairman.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair feels that the House has not heard the last of this board and that there will be another discussion. These attempts at compromise are unnecessarily delaying the proceedings. The Committee Stage has yet to come.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think there has been any undue delay.

An Ceann Comhairle

There has been a great deal of repetition.

Mr. Briscoe

We are trying to understand each other.

Mr. Dillon

The other topic about which Deputies appeared to be particularly concerned was the bookmakers. I have tried to make it as clear as I could that one of the many reasons for the delay in bringing this Bill before the House was that I got leave from the House at the end of the summer session to print the Bill and yet I did not circulate it until some weeks after the House reassembled. What was the reason? It was because I searched every plan I could to see if I could not meet the wishes of the smaller bookmakers to be free from a levy and when it became abundantly clear to me that I could not do it I felt I was not morally entitled to bring the Bill before the House without sending for them again. I did this and I told them that I had tried my best to meet their wishes because they seemed to be so desperately apprehensive that it would gravely injure them in their livelihood. I said: "I have done the best I can and now I am advised that without a levy on bookmakers' bets I cannot finance the work that has to be done," but I also said to them: "If it will help to restrict that levy to one-and-a-quarter I would be glad to give that at least a trial."

At first glance, it seemed that it ought to be a help to the bookmakers to bring down the level of the levy, but I am not sure on investigation that it is going to help at all. In fact, from the point of view of the small bookmakers, it might be better to leave the levy at 2½ per cent. and attach to all bookmakers' licences an obligation to collect it from the betters because it now appears that if the levy is too low it may be an economic possibility for the relatively big bookmaker to charge it against his profit. He would be able to bear it whereas the small fellow might not be able to do that and would so lose his patronage. But if you make it 2½ per cent., the big fellow will not want to bear that himself and will more readily comply with the compulsory direction that he should collect it from the betters. I believe the practice in regard to bookmakers——

Mr. Briscoe

With the indulgence of the Chair, would the Minister, just for argument's sake, tell us what is 1½ per cent. of 2/6? How is it to be collected?

Mr. Dillon

I know that difficulty exists, but do not forget what Deputy O'Malley said in this debate—I am not saying it to the Deputy but merely reminding him what Deputy O'Malley said—that any fool can get up and tell me what I ought not to do but that it takes a good man to get up and tell me what I ought to do.

Mr. Briscoe

I did make a suggestion.

Mr. Dillon

That was about the only part of Deputy O'Malley's speech with which I found myself in entire agreement. I want to find a way, if I can, to help the small bookmakers. I know of no way in which this thing can be financed—although I will consider Deputy Briscoe's suggestion—without a levy on bookmakers and the tote. I do think it is possible, after the thing has got under way, that the tote might yield revenue sufficient to permit of the levy being dropped, and that possibility is envisaged in the report and provision for that possibility is incorporated in the Bill.

Some people have voiced apprehension on behalf of the bookmakers, that they will be deprived of their pitches and that the tote would be planted on the ground where they were in the habit of standing to the grave detriment of their profitable employment but I think that apprehension is founded on an illusion arising from the practice in Great Britain, because in Great Britain—I think I am right in saying—the tote was operated for the private benefit of the track owners and it therefore became a real aim of the track owners to elbow the bookmaker off the tracks and force everybody on to the tote. That is not the case in Ireland. The entire profit of the tote in Ireland is going to the board for the development of greyhound racing whereas the bookmaker paying his entry fee, whatever it may be, is a source of benefits to the track owner and, far from the track owners in Ireland wishing to shoulder the bookmaker out of the way in favour of the tote, I think the bookmaker would be a very much more welcome visitor to the track here than the tote. The exact opposite is the case in Great Britain but when it comes to asking me to fix a maximum of five times the admission price for a bookmaker entering a greyhound track because that is the maximum fixed on the racehorse tracks I want to remind the House that when we talk of greyhound tracks we should not think only of Harold's Cross and Shelbourne Park. There may be tracks down the of Harold's Cross and Shelbourne Park. There may be tracks down the country where, in order to draw a crowd, the proprietors may charge only 1/- or 2/-.

Mr. T. Walsh

There is not one in Ireland that I know where the entrance fee is 1/-.

Mr. Dillon

I do not know. I do not suppose the Deputy is a frequenter of these tracks much more than I am myself and I do not know what the practice is, but my advice from a variety of sources is that it may be that some of these country tracks have to charge very low entrance fees and that it is not impossible that the time could come when these tracks would find it requisite to have a modest entrance fee for the inside ring, and virtually no charge at all for the outside.

I am not saying that that is a likely development but that it is possible. Let us face the fact that we cannot undertake to put in a Bill something which is manifestly unworkable and we must have some regard to realities. I did take occasion in introducing this Bill to say expressly that I thought one of the clear duties of the board of control would be to protect the legitimate interests of the bookmaker whom I regarded as an integral part of this industry and who was entitled to his livelihood. Most people here seem to forget that at the present time bookmakers are paying ten or 12 times the entrance fee——

Mr. Briscoe

There is another answer to that. The bookmaker will not be represented on the board as it is at present constituted. If he were, there might be some merit in what the Minister says. But the Minister should know that the present high levels of prices to bookmakers are of recent occurrence and are based on the expectancy of this Bill. The Minister knows that.

Mr. Dillon

In any case, the fact remains that in all the preliminary discussions I have had about this Bill I have met a greater number of bookmakers—and showed a great deal more solicitude for their welfare and the welfare of their employees—than I have track proprietors. I am not sure if I met the track proprietors. I think I did once.

Mr. Briscoe

The poor fellows did not need any help.

Mr. Dillon

That is often the view I take. It is no function of a Minister for Agriculture to look after track proprietors. They can look after themselves.

Mr. Walsh

They will be controlling the tracks from now on.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Walsh appears to be taking a very gloomy view and I think his own course of conduct reveals his own attitude of mind on this whole problem: I think he found it so thorny and so difficult that he just threw his hat at it and never produced any Bill at all. I have a good deal of sympathy with him for doing that.

Mr. Walsh

I gave the Minister the reasons: I was not being bulldozed as the Minister is being bulldozed.

Mr. Dillon

By whom?

Mr. Walsh

By the Irish Coursing Club.

Mr. Dillon

In the name of Providence, how can the Irish Coursing Club bulldoze me?

Mr. Finlay

Or anyone else either?

Mr. Walsh

This Bill is proof of the Minister being bulldozed.

Mr. Dillon

There is not one I know. What, in the name of Providence, will I get from the Irish Coursing Club? If they wanted to bulldoze me, how could they do it?

Mr. Briscoe

Perhaps the Minister is more simple and more innocent than we thought.

Mr. Walsh

They could do it by pushing the Minister around.

Mr. Dillon

Whether it is innocence or simplicity indurates a Minister from being bulldozed, I can guarantee to the House that no one is bulldozing me. I have this old-fashioned idea that I think people like ourselves are entitled to just as much respect as the Etonians, the Wykehamists, and the Harrovians who constitute the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Club. Maybe that is an obscurantist, silly approach but that is the way I am made; and, upon my word, I do not doubt there are a good many Deputies in the House who feel the same as I do. In any case that is my constitution.

Mr. Briscoe

Surely the Minister will agree that a horse is not a dog?

Mr. Dillon

I will.

Mr. Briscoe

That is the approach the Minister should make.

Mr. Dillon

I also agree that a Vere de Vere is not a Hanratty.

Mr. Briscoe

We want the Hanrattys.

Mr. Dillon

The Hanrattys are the kind of people I come from and I propose to see that they are treated with just the same respect as the Vere de Veres—no more. That may be an old-fashioned point of view, but that is the position as I see it. I am much flattered by the constant inclination of Deputies on both sides of the House to urge on me the obligation of seeking that this does not happen and that does not happen. I want to remind Deputies again that the purpose of this Bill is to devise a machine whereby this industry can regulate itself.

Mr. Walsh

That is what we want.

Mr. Dillon

We have, I think, to proceed on the assumption that, given that machinery and given that ultimately all persons charged with this responsibility will be drawn from an elected body representative of the greyhound industry as a whole, they will be the kind of people who will do a decent job and do fair justice between all the interests involved. If anybody can suggest to me any further safeguard than the fact that whatever Minister appoints this board will have to answer to Dáil Éireann in the last analysis for its performance I will be glad to hear it.

Mr. Walsh

We will try to devise such a means on the Committee Stage.

Mr. Dillon

The only way I can do it is to appoint the best men. Is there any other way?

Mr. Walsh

No, but the Minister is not doing that now.

Mr. Dillon

How does the Deputy know?

Mr. Walsh

Twenty-five years of maladministration prove it.

Mr. Dillon

I think it is right for me to direct the attention of the House to this fact: We could let this whole business rip and do nothing. But I think, if we do, the whole greyhound racing business will collapse, and that at no far distant date. If that should come to pass the bookmakers who are now getting their living on the greyhound tracks will have no living to get unless we establish a board which will have the resources and the powers, first, to raise the whole standard of conduct associated with greyhound racing and, secondly, to improve the stakes and the amenities available on greyhound tracks for owners and patrons. If we do not do that, the greyhound racing industry will disappear.

Mr. Briscoe

I agree.

Mr. Dillon

I would ask the bookmakers to bear this in mind. We are trying to save their livelihood just as much as we are trying to save anybody else.

Mr. A. Byrne

Can the Minister give a guarantee that penal prices of admission will not be charged to the small men? Is it possible for a board to fix prices which will keep the small man out? Will the Minister give a guarantee of a right of appeal to the courts where penalties may be inflicted?

Mr. Dillon

Could the board impose penal charges for the purpose of keeping out small bookmakers? Not with my consent, and, if that were done, I would come back to Dáil Éireann to seek powers to dismiss the board that did it. I would regard it as a grave betrayal of its responsibilities if it did anything of the kind. On the contrary, just as Deputy Briscoe and Deputy Walsh said, track owners and so forth are well able to look after their own interests and I would regard it as one of the primary duties of the board to concern itself with the protection of the smaller bookmakers who might not have the influence or the resources to defend themselves that more well-to-do men have. I would regard the care and scrupulousness of the board in attending to matters of that kind as one of the criteria on which to judge their efficiency and their excellence.

I do not quite follow the question as to penalties imposed. I cannot imagine the board proposing any penalties which would not be uniform for all. I imagine that if there are to be bookmakers' licences the same bookmakers' licences will be available to all on terms possible for all. I would expect any breach of the regulations to be dealt with on the same basis, irrespective of whether it was a large and wealthy bookmaker or a small and relatively insignificant one. I certainly am proceeding on the assumption that no question of discrimination between the powerful and the weak could be contemplated even for one moment. I think bookmakers are inclined to forget that we are fighting for their living just as much as we are fighting for everybody else. That is the end at which we aim. I know of no other means by which we can attain that end except by having some levy on bookmakers' bets for some period of time; and on the tote, if the board discovers the revenue derived from the tote is sufficient, I certainly will be in favour of suspending the levy altogether. In the meantime I do not think we can avail of the machinery unless we have the necessary means and that is the only reason why the board is authorised under this Bill to fix a levy on bookmakers' bets.

Mr. Briscoe

Will the other three members of the board be representative of the bookmakers' interests?

Mr. Dillon

That is a matter to which I have not bent my mind.

Mr. Briscoe

Will the Minister give a promise that at least one of those positions will be reserved for the bookmakers?

Mr. Dillon

I imagine that, if I did, it would bring a good deal of grist to the Deputy's political mill. I do not want to give such an undertaking across the floor of the House when I have refused it to half a dozen different Deputies who asked me behind closed doors.

Mr. Walsh

Are they not an integral part of the industry?

Mr. Dillon

That has been put to me by half a dozen Deputies of this House but my answer to the question is that this Bill has no force of law until it is passed by Dáil Éireann. I have no reason to believe that the Bill will receive approval in principle from Dáil Éireann. It is written into the Bill that the Minister shall make the appointments and that is the principle in which the Dáil is interested. When that principle has been endorsed in the Committee Stage the Dáil will then be entitled to ask me.

Mr. Walsh

It is a pity you did not think the same about the Irish Coursing Club. They will enjoy a very happy Christmas.

Mr. Dillon

If the Deputy means that for me I would not wish to add another word to this debate.

Mr. Briscoe

I thought the Minister was concerned about getting an unbiassed approach to this Bill and he used the expression in his speech that this would not be a political discussion. Now the Minister throws it out that, if somebody makes a suggestion which he cannot accept, he will not accept it because it is made for the purpose of getting political kudos. That is entirely unfair. The Minister might have given some indication of the extent to which he is prepared to meet Deputies. There are fundamental objections to certain things——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making three or four speeches.

Mr. Briscoe

Will the Minister say to the House that he will read the speeches made on this measure and examine seriously the suggestions made in them? I think the mathematical calculations in the report of the advisory committee are all wrong. How is the Minister going to levy five-eighths of a penny off the bookmaker on a 2/- bet?

Mr. Dillon

I do not wish to add anything to what I have already said at this stage beyond cordially to reciprocate Deputy Walsh's good wishes.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 15th February, 1956.