Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 1956

Vol. 154 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 1:—

In sub-section (1), page 4, line 10, before ", on" to insert "(not being a meeting declared by the board by regulations to be exempted as respects the levies provided for by this Act)".

This amendment is primarily designed to enable the board to exempt from betting levy small coursing meetings where the volume of betting is not substantial. The cost of collection would be likely to outweigh the levy in such cases and the board may, accordingly, find it desirable to collect betting levy only at the principal meetings, the Irish Cup, the National Cork Cup and the Kingdom Cup and certain meetings of that kind. The amendment will, in fact, enable the board to exempt even these coursing meetings from betting levy if they so think fit at any time.

Would the Minister not go the full distance and abolish levies altogether in all places?

I do not think I can go that far.

Amendment put and agreed to.
Section, as amended, agreed to.
Sections 3 to 5, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 2:—

To delete sub-section (1) and substitute the following new sub-section:—

(1) There shall, by virtue of this section, be established immediately after the reconstruction of the Irish Coursing Club as provided in Section 26 of this Act, a board to be styled and known as the Greyhound Industry Board to fulfil the functions assigned to it by this Act.

I do not know whether or not the Minister has considered this amendment and made up his mind to oppose it. I think he will remember that on the Second Reading there was a considerable amount of discussion on this particular matter; and what this amendment seeks to secure is that the board envisaged in the Bill shall not be set up until such time as the elections take place, i.e., the elections envisaged in the Bill for the future. We discussed this in great detail on the Second Reading. Reasons were given. There was some suggestion that there would be difficulty in getting people with sufficient experience to manage the affairs of the board. I think the Minister had the idea that if some proportion of the present management of the Irish Coursing Club, were to take over, or be put on this for the interregnum period, that would secure the necessary experience for future development, in conjunction with what is described as the subsequent triennial elections.

Now, we believe that if there is to be a democratically elected board it should be elected right from the beginning and there should not be a period —the most vital period really because it is during that period that the first appointment of officers and servants of the board will be made — in which there will not be a properly elected democratic board. If the first suggestion is adopted, all the officers and servants will be appointed before any properly elected persons come to take control. I merely argue that point for the moment in order to get the Minister's reaction. I am sure other speakers will have much more to say on it.

I hope the Deputy's gloomy forecast about others having much more to say about it will not materialise because I do not think there is any very great difficulty here. We discussed this matter fully on the Second Stage.

Under the Bill, the board will be established before the new Irish Coursing Club constitution comes into effect. It was suggested, I think, by certain Deputies that the reconstitution of the Irish Coursing Club should take effect before the Bill comes into operation and I tried to make it clear that, while I accept the doctrine that we ought to have a new departure, I think we ought at the same time to try to provide continuity so as not have arising conceivably a situation in which the whole management of the greyhound racing business here would undergo an upheaval. Therefore, I suggested that we should allow the business of the reconstitution of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club to be considered over a period of two and a half years and, if any member of the Greyhound Board failed to secure election to the Control Board of the Irish Coursing Club, he would thereupon cease to be a member of either body.

I think Deputies will agree, on reflection, that no matter how urgently one wants to reconstitute an organisation in being, it is foolish to proceed with such rapidity that one may upset the whole apple cart. It is much better to proceed in stages. It will only take two and a half years for the whole of this executive of the Irish Coursing Club to submit itself to the clubs and race tracks under the new constitution for re-election, or rejection, in three stages — seven retiring six months after the Bill coming into operation and submitting themselves for election, seven 12 months after that and seven 12 months after that again. If any of the four members from the controlling body of the Irish Coursing Club or the Racing Board fails to secure re-election at the hands of the clubs and tracks he automatically ceases to be a member of the control board. I would suggest that is the reasonable way to go about it.

I would ask Deputies to remember that we agreed to set up this tribunal of inquiry for the purpose of putting this industry on a permanent basis. We had a very searching inquiry into the whole set-up and, after protracted discussion, with which Deputy Walsh is familiar a modus vivendi was arrived at which enables us to secure the installation of a new executive of the Irish Coursing Club, and a new board for the purpose of this Bill, when it becomes law, on what are substantially agreed terms and conditions, subject to the overriding condition that over a period of two and a half years all persons eligible to represent the Irish Coursing Club on the control board will have been elected under the new rules at the hands of those engaged in the sport. I think that is a good plan. It avoids revolutions while, at the same time, securing reforms.

Now, I do not think that, in rearranging matters of this kind, such as are dealt with in this Bill, one can ever get satisfactory results by precipitating violent revolutions because, though one may attain, or try to attain, an objective with greater expedition than a process of reform would allow, one will tread upon so many people's susceptibilities and upset so many people that one will create a great deal more annoyance than if one proceeds in gradual stages.

The scheme envisaged in the Bill is that the existing standing committee will retire in three stages over a two-and-a-half-year period. It is desirable to maintain some degree of continuity and we are going a good deal further in this Bill in regard to the greyhound industry than we went in the Racing Act when we were constituting the new Racing Board. Deputies will remember in that case we did not impose any obligation on the National Hunt Committee and the Turf Club to reconstitute themselves at all. We require the executive of the Irish Coursing Club, over a two-and-a-half-year period, to submit themselves to an entirely new form of election which, I think, will guarantee a truly representative character to the Standing Committee of the Irish Coursing Club. In so far as the 100 nominated members are concerned, I think their numbers are to be reduced to 50 and their functions, except those in an advisory capacity, will be abolished. In all the circumstances, I suggest to Deputies that this is a reasonable plan of steady but gradual reform and is best calculated to achieve the purposes that most of us have in mind.

I do not think there is anything revolutionary in suggesting that this organisation, which it is intended to set up, be established now before the board is appointed. It is the intention to reorganise the Irish Coursing Club later on by having clubs and club representatives appointed to the provincial council and from that on to the executive. What the Minister suggests doing here is that the old Irish Coursing Club, which has been condemned in the report that has been submitted to the Minister and in regard to which the Minister has taken action in introducing this Bill to the House, should be reappointed.

I am asking the Minister, having regard to their failure to do their duty by the people who are interested in the industry, to make a complete change. It is not revolutionary. You are not going to have any outside body coming in to take control of the greyhound industry by doing what is suggested in the amendment. The people appointed to the new executive are people who have already been connected with the greyhound industry who must be members of clubs; as a matter of fact the co-opted members — co-opted is the word I choose rather than elected — are members of coursing clubs. In order to run dogs at coursing meetings or on a track, they must be members of a recognised club so that they are members already but they are not the elected representatives of that particular club. They have just been co-opted to the board of the Irish Coursing Club or to the standing committee or to the Irish Coursing Club itself. Why should the people who are directly responsible, who have been elected in a democratic way not be the people made responsible for the carrying out of the functions in connection with coursing and greyhound racing generally and become members of the board?

If these people that the Minister has in mind want to become members of the standing committee, want to become members of the board, or to make themselves eligible to become members of the board there is nothing to prevent their doing so. They can go before their club, get themselves elected, become members of the provincial council and then go on to the executive council. That is all we are asking, that it should be done in a democratic way.

The standing committee, as at present constituted, is composed of 16 co-opted members and five members who are representatives of clubs. I take it, it would be rather significant if some one, or possibly two, are not to be on the board. Would it not be far better, and would there not be more justification, to have them elected representatives of the people who are engaged in the industry? At the moment, they cannot say they are. I know they are members of the clubs. You might have people who are members not merely of one club but of five or six clubs in different parts of the country.

Why is it that these people will not go before the other members of the club and have themselves elected in a proper way? This does not interfere with the Minister in making his appointments. All it does mean is that the people who in future will represent the greyhound industry have been democratically elected by the members of the club, by the provincial council and the executive which it is proposed to set up. There is nothing revolutionary or unreasonable in the amendment. I believe it will strengthen the committee and make it more acceptable to the people in the country if it is accepted.

I would like to make it clear to the Deputy that there is no question of principle involved here because the ultimate result is going to be the same in that the 21 members of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club will be persons elected under the new constitution. The real question at issue between us is: should we do that at one jump now or should we do it in three stages so as to preserve some degree of continuity?

I suggest to the Deputy that where you are adjusting yourself to a new situation, where you are carrying into effect by statute a pretty comprehensive code of reform, there are two ways by which you can do it—that is by uprooting everything that is there and try to build a completely new structure without any guarantee at all of what the nature of the new structure is going to be; or the alternative method, gradually to alter the structure into the form the Legislature thinks it ought to have, with perfect certainty that over a period that continuity may be preserved. There is no issue of principle involved here at all.

How would the Minister make a line of demarcation as to how the three groups of seven would go?

By lot. Seven would go out at the first election, seven at the second election and seven at the third election. In that way you preserve a degree of continuity which is surely desirable, now that a very important industry admittedly has grown out of the scope for which the executive of the Irish Coursing Club was originally designed.

May I make this appeal to Deputies? This is a Bill about the principle of which we have got substantial agreement. There is ample scope in the course of the Committee Stage of this Bill for people to say things calculated to give the most bitter personal offence to persons intimately associated with the industry. I am proceeding on the assumption that we all want to get this whole greyhound business on a satisfactory basis, then let it run itself and let the Legislature get out of it as much as we can. Would I trespass too far on the indulgence of my colleagues if I asked them, in so far as they can, to refrain from severe animadversion on the status that has obtained up to now? Whatever it was, the greyhound industry is there. But for many people, it would not be there at all. We would not want this Bill if certain regulative measures were not required. I cannot think that Deputies on the far side believe it to be, in general principle, desirable to wipe out the whole existing executive and to bring in an entirely new one. Surely it is manifest that it is desirable to maintain some continuity of the council provided we have the overriding assurance that, within a limited and definitely ascertained time, there will be a completely new council founded on strictly representative principles.

I can see that, if you were arguing logic in vacuo, you could make the case: if the present situation is not satisfactory, why not change it now? I think the only answer is that it is rarely good to tear a building to pieces and to try to put up a brand new one in its place. It is much better, if you can, to change the thing by degrees provided you are certain that there is a limit to the period in which the complete change must be made. There is a strict limit in this Bill and I suggest to Deputies that this is a reasonable way to go about it so as to get, in the end, a satisfactory representative body functioning as the executive of the Irish Coursing Club and still preserving the thread of continuity so that there will not be any upheaval which may wreak great disadvantage to the industry as a whole.

I am not asking Deputies on any side of the House to approve or disapprove of the régime that has gone before but would I trespass too far on the goodwill of Deputies if I asked them to bear in mind that this Bill is designed to create a new departure? There is a body of men who operated this industry since 1916, when they separated it from the British Coursing Club, and they carried it on down to to-day. Many of us will approve and many of us will disapprove of some things that were done. If everything were perfect, this Bill would not be necessary. But we all know they constituted themselves originally to deal with coursing and, because there was no other body to control greyhound racing, when it became popular after the first World War, this body took over the responsibility for greyhound racing which mushroomed up into something very much larger and more difficult than they anticipated when they first put their hand to its control.

I wish we could get this Bill through the House with the reasonable goodwill of all the parties associated with this industry so that, without trampling on anybody's susceptibilities unnecessarily, we all could feel that, when this legislation was enacted, we could float all these people off and say to them: "You have the machine to run your industry satisfactorily and, if you do not, it is your own funeral. The Legislature will not do any more about it."

Therefore, I would suggest to Deputies that, instead of asking for the strict letter of logic in regard to this matter, they would accept that the gradual process of reform is better than the revolutionary one. I think you can make a case that you ought to have the first 21 members of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club elected as the whole existing executive put to the hazard of election without more ado but a much stronger case can be made, in the interests of the industry itself, in the interests of continuity, for postponing by three stages the change of the entire body from its existing system of choice to that of democratic choice by the race tracks and coursing clubs of the provinces. That is the argument and I would strongly recommend to Deputies not to press the view that the whole existing executive of 21 should be swept aside and a new one appointed in toto at one go. From the point of view of the industry, it would be infinitely better to do this thing in three stages, so long as we have the assurance in the end that, once the process has been initiated, it must proceed within two and a half years' time to completion.

Surely the Minister does not think for a moment that, if there was a change in the morning, the 21 members of the standing committee would disappear overnight? I can envisage at least 11 or 12, possibly 13, of them coming back and the continuity that the Minister speaks of will be preserved but, when they do go back, they can say that they represent somebody. At the moment they represent nobody but themselves.

I am in favour of trying to make this Bill a Bill that will be of some advantage to the industry. That is why I have been pressing that this reorganisation scheme should take place before any members are selected to form a new board. Even the Minister's suggestion on Second Reading was that it is quite possible that some of the co-opted members would be put on the board at present, but they must submit themselves for election within a period of six months.

Not six months.

That is no good. If it were good, I would have accepted it, but it is not any good because they have already laid down the scheme that is to be followed by that board; they have made all the appointments. All the appointments will be made within that six months. Permits will be issued to coursing clubs; permits will be issued to tracks and the general regulations that will govern greyhound racing, coursing, and the appointments for the future will be made by that board, but the Minister has no means of knowing whether these people are acceptable to the greyhound industry generally until after the first six months, until they have either succeeded in being elected by some coursing club to be their representative or have been defeated. It is only after the six months that all the damage that could possibly be done will have been done. That is why I am pressing that reorganisation should take place first.

There will not be any break in continuity as far as the majority of the present standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club are concerned. There will be members re-elected. I believe that more than half would go back if they submitted themselves to the various clubs of which they are members for election. What they do not want to do is to oust somebody else or to put out the man who has been representing that club for years. They do not want to do that at the moment. They want to be regarded as free lances. I would put them to the trouble and inconvenience of having their names submitted for election in the democratic way and, when that is done, the Minister can say: "We have now a board that is truly representative of the greyhound industry and the people engaged in that industry." That is why I would like the Minister to accept the amendment.

I find myself in agreement with Deputy Walsh that probably the majority of the executive committee would be the same people, but I do not think Deputy Walsh is aware of the fact that this is the kind of organisation that lifted itself up by its own bootlaces. It did all the organising for this sport. I doubt very much whether all of the clubs mentioned as being in existence throughout the country hold meetings. I think very many of them exist only on paper. At any rate, there is no magnificent water-tight organisation in regard to these clubs throughout the country, and frankly I think you would get any kind of a result if you said: "Now is the day we are going to make the change." I have listened to an awful lot about it; I have been a member of the organisation myself, and my conclusion is that you will have the same personalities and the same members now on the Irish Coursing Club as you had in the past. I am perfectly satisfied about that. I do not know who the additions will be or from where they will come.

I should like to make one point in connection with Deputy Barry's statement. In Section 35, there is provision whereby the members of the executive committee shall be appointed by the provincial committees of the club from among the representative members of the club in their respective provinces. In that case the paper club people of whom Deputy Barry spoke would not have any right to sit on the executive committee.

When I used the words "paper club" I meant that possibly there were clubs which did not hold meetings but which held a coursing meeting in a district each year. Such a club is a sporting organisation. In a parish or district there may be two or three people like Deputy Walsh, Deputy Briscoe and myself who would agree to apply to hold a meeting next year. They would then apply to the Irish Coursing Club and would hold their meeting. All this thing has come out of Sunday sport and in country towns, as Deputy MacCarthy is aware, a coursing meeting is held once a year in a friendly informal way.

The Irish Coursing Club was constituted to look after a sport. It was a number of men who were interested and fond of the sport. It was easy enough until the entry of this greyhound racing in 1927 and 1928 and the fact of the matter is that the Irish Coursing Club had not the power to regulate, or control or stamp out the wrong-doing which accompanied the advent of this new game. This Bill is an attempt to give somebody the power which the old Irish Coursing Club lacked of stamping out the wrong-doing. As far as the coursing meetings are concerned, they have been a perfectly clean and good game and are likely to remain so. But the Irish Coursing Club has been talked about in atmospheres like that which was created here when this Bill was before the House previously when the Irish Coursing Club was labelled as a group of men who had done great wrong in the past. That is not correct, as people who know the situation are aware. Perforce, wrong things in the greyhound sport were tolerated, because the Irish Coursing Club was not constituted to deal with them. Such things were thrown on top of them and they attempted foolishly to regulate them. They had no legal powers and when they did take offenders to courts they were unable to obtain punishments that were deserved. The whole system of the law in relation to greyhound racing prevented the Irish Coursing Club——

Does it not apply to horse-racing in the same way?

It does.

Perhaps it does to the National Hunt Club. The Irish Coursing Club was started to control money-less coursing and when the moneyed side of the sport came along with its accompanying wrong-doing they found themselves unable to deal with everything. The value of dogs increased enormously but that was a good thing on the whole. However, the Irish Coursing Club had no weapons, no rules and no power to deal with the wrong-doing which must have crept into a sport into which so much money of a lurid type flowed. Whatever we do now I think we shall find ourselves with the same Irish Coursing Club— the same personalities and the same men.

Not quite.

Their only failure has been their failure to do something they had not got the power to do.

I have listened with great care to what the Minister said in connection with this amendment to find a substitute for Section 6. First of all the Minister says that we should try to produce a Bill that will be for the general good of the industry and that we should try to keep away from taxing individuals and groups. In approaching this amendment I shall look at it in that way. The Minister talked about the necessity to bring about this change in order to avoid an upheaval. I cannot see how it is not possible to have a properly democratically elected board of persons with executive control set up in a shorter period than is suggested. I would have some sympathy if the Minister had in the Bill say, under Section 9, provision for a temporary body of men to care-take while this change is taking place.

The three stages to which the Minister referred become necessary because of the manner in which the Bill is framed. Deputy Barry quite rightly said that, though there are ostensibly four areas in which groups of clubs operate, there may be in some areas or part of other areas, from a practical point of view, non-existent clubs, but if there were a caretaker body set up to see that only such clubs existed as would comply with requirements of the Irish Coursing Club rules I would understand it. It should be provided that only those clubs that are properly qualified would have a right to have elections for the purpose of sending representatives to the top level body. The Minister said it would be impossible to get proper results from the method of election which he termed revolutionary. The caretaker body to which I have referred would guard against this.

The members of every club in every area would then have an opportunity of studying the Act and studying all that is necessary for all concerned and would be better able to choose a member either from their own club or support a member from another club to be the candidate. If that candidate were elected he would be qualified to carry out the rules and regulations in their interests generally and in ancillary matters which now come into the Bill. If the Minister were to suggest something of that nature one could understand it but I do not think it is possible—speaking personally it is not possible—to compromise the situation. I agree we should not go into a discussion, if you like, on what has happened in the past but Deputy Barry came along and introduced the very thing the Minister says should not be introduced. He has condemned, in his little intervention, the race track owners, those who are concerned with greyhound racing as distinct from coursing. If it is to be done that way how are we to approach it from the proper point of view?

I believe the Minister himself must have some appreciation of the fact that there has been—and more so in recent years—some semblance of control in existence. Authority has been exercised very thoroughly regarding the licensing of tracks and refusal to licence tracks. Large numbers of wrongdoers have been warned off and the authority was able to enforce its decision. The suggestion that no authority exists is not in accordance with the facts. There may have been great difficulties to overcome in reaching that decision, but it does not get away from the difficulty—as Deputy Walsh has pointed out—that the moment the Minister has set up this board, even if it is only for a limited period of one to two-and-a-half-years, they will have established, and by force of law, the rules regarding licensing, appointments and so forth so that when the other body of elected representatives ultimately comes along they will possibly have to take over commitments which they might not have agreed to had they been in authority at the time the decisions were made.

I come back then to this investigation which has resulted in this Bill. It has taken quite a few years from the time the investigation was begun until the report was received and until the present Minister decided to act on that report as best he could. It has taken years to do that: why then is there suddenly the necessity of bringing into being by the methods suggested in the Bill a board which is not what is ultimately required according to the recommendations of the advisory committee and the Bill itself—an elected body representing the interests of the greyhound business from beginning to end?

Therefore, I say, if the worst comes to the worst, if it is not imperative for some reasons unknown to me that this board should operate almost simultaneously with the passing of the Bill into law, we can——

Surely it is the Minister who appoints the board, who will appoint the board?

I know, but I am saying he should not appoint the board until these elections take place. That is the difference between us. If the Minister appoints the board before the elections take place, although they may to a great extent be the same people as those who already occupy these positions, I say it should be done on the basis of the choice of the members of each of the clubs in each of the areas. Both Deputy Walsh and Deputy Barry, who have a great deal more knowledge of what takes place on the coursing side of the industry than I shall ever have, agree it is more than possible that the names of elected representatives from which the Minister will make his selection will be, to a great extent, the same as those already there. I cannot understand if the Minister does not agree with the immediate election and if he does not agree with some interim body just to supervise the creation of the first election machinery, why he will not postpone it and allow present representatives to continue to operate until after the Bill is passed. Let us pass the Bill and let the election take place but let the appointed day for the election be a year from now or six months after the passing of the Bill. It does not follow that you must necessarily wait a year or a year-and-a-half or two years to have these particular elections.

I am not at all convinced that the Minister's method is the best one or even a good one. I am convinced that the basis of control of an organisation can only be created at its birth. If you start off on the basis of this Bill there will always be a hang-over from what was done by those who were in control for a period of years because they would have laid certain foundations without any authority from the individual members of the organisation.

I would like to say a word about this amendment. I was not here for the previous stage but I read the debate carefully. Arising out of this amendment it appears that the scapegoat of the whole business is to be the Irish Coursing Club. They do not appear to be fit for anything and Deputy Briscoe closed by saying they would be people without authority.

I would like to say that when a group of men came together in 1916 to try to control coursing as it was then, it was time that something was done. I would like to be able to say a word of tribute to those who came together at that time because those were the days of the gangs. The group of men who afterwards called themselves the Irish Coursing Club were justified and did great work. I am not briefed by anybody to come here—I remember this well. I remember people near and dear to me being cheated and bested and this group of men came together, a fine lot of decent men, formerly members of this House. Dinny Gorey was one of them. There were Tom Morris, Hugh McAlinden and Tom Harte of Kildare. I could name the most of them. I do not think that these men's names and fame should have been dragged about in this derogatory way in this House. I would like to pay that tribute to them.

I would like to say this about the Irish Coursing Club. They have endeavoured to bring discipline into the greyhound industry. When that industry started in Ireland, a great number of undesirable people came into it and some queer things happened on tracks. The Irish Coursing Club did the best they could and their best was not good enough. I admit that but at the same time I consider that they should have representation on the board such as this Bill sets out. I do not know anyone else in this country that would be fit to take that representation from them.

That has nothing to do with this section.

It has. The people who have been most vocal to me about the Irish Coursing Club for the last ten or 15 years are people who should never be let into a track at all. Anybody that sets out to discipline anything will be unpopular, just like the schoolteacher. That is one of the reasons why the Irish Coursing Club is unpopular.

The coursing clubs are there throughout the country and when this Bill becomes law—I know it has the goodwill of nearly everybody in the House who wants to see it passed—I am convinced that a great number of people who pay their subscriptions to the coursing clubs but will never go to a committee meeting or a general meeting will turn up to these meetings now because this Bill will give them an opportunity of putting people directly on to the board.

In supporting this amendment, I would point out to the Minister that by having the elections before he appoints the new board he is avoiding the possibility of wasting the valuable time of a member whom he might now appoint. If to-morrow he decides to appoint the board he will appoint four of the people on that board from the existing standing committee. We will take it that six months after these men have been appointed the Irish Coursing Club commences to reconstitute itself. It could then happen that the four members chosen by the Minister as representing the existing standing committee would not be elected and we would then have them at the point that they would have debarred themselves.

They would not debar themselves.

They would not be elected. We would have the position that after six months the four men whom the Minister had chosen from the standing committee would not be elected. It is improbable that the whole four would not be elected but one of them might be defeated. Surely it is logical to say that the valuable experience gained in those six or 12 months at the foundation of the board is really valuable experience and should not be wasted. It would be a great hardship to have these men debarred from coming in. The Minister might say that the same thing could happen under the recommended section but I think it is improbable that it would happen if this section is accepted by the Minister. The reason I say that is that the Irish Coursing Club would have reconstituted itself under our section before the Minister would have appointed the board.

It is a 100 to one on that if a member is put on the executive committee under the reconstitution of the Irish Coursing Club that he will be elected annually and thereby qualify and you will thus have what the Minister calls valuable continuity.

In the explanatory notes accompanying the Bill, on the first page, Section 3 refers to the day on which the Greyhound Industry Board will be established under Section 6. That day will precede the day on which the constitution of the Irish Coursing Club in the Schedule to the Bill will come into operation by virtue of an Order under Section 26 (6) of the Bill. It will, for example, be necessary to allow time for making preliminary arrangements for the appointment of the first representative members under Article 2 of the constitution and for the preparation of rules for the purpose of Article 16 of the constitution. It appears that there will be quite a delay pending the selection of the establishment day by the Minister. Pending the decision on that establishment day there is quite a percentage of reorganisation work due to be done by the Irish Coursing Club. If they have to do all that reorganisation work as set out in the Bill, surely the best thing to do would be to reorganise the whole set-up of the Irish Coursing Club as set out in the Schedule of the Act, and then let the Minister select his board from the representatives of the newly constituted club

I move to report progress.

Was the Order of the Day changed to that effect?

The House agreed to the present arrangement.

I think you will have to formally amend the original Order in order to allow the Minister for Health in.

It is not necessary.

I do not want to seem to be cribbing on this, but the Ceann Comhairle ruled on the Order of Business to-day. Subsequent to that, agreement was made about this matter. I suggest, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, with all due respect, that, for the purpose of keeping the matter in order, it is necessary to have the formal agreement of the House recorded because there was no variation of the actual Order of Business.

Deputy S. Collins is incorrect. The Order of Business was that the Local Government Superannuation Bill would be interrupted, if not concluded, by 7 o'clock.

It was not. It was agreed after the Order of Business had been declared that this Bill would be taken. It is purely for the matter of keeping the Chair right that I make the suggestion that it is necessary so to order formally for the purpose of keeping the matter in order.

Are we not all agreed?

We are. It is a matter of agreement.

The Chair is carrying out the order of the House.

With respect, I am submitting you are not doing so; it is because you are not—I happened to be present to-day—that I am suggesting that the matter must be formally amended.

When the First Stage of the Wireless Bill was introduced to-day it was ordered to take the Second Stage to-day.

It was, but at that stage—you may be right, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle—it had already been ordered that business would be interrupted at 7 o'clock specifically for the purpose of taking Nos. 3 and 7. The only reason I make the suggestion is that it may get the Chair out of difficulty if a formal agreement is necessary.

It was not an Order that we should take certain business at 7 o'clock. The House agreed to it but there was no Order.

But the Order had already been made that business would be interrupted to take two specific items.

There was an arrangement, but no Order.

There was an Order in connection with it.

A bottle of smoke!

The Ceann Comhairle took the Chair.

I was making a submission to the Leas-Cheann Comhairle that, in view of the fact that it had been formally ordered that business would be interrupted at 7 o'clock to take specifically items Nos. 3 and 7, it would be necessary to have an amending Order now to allow the Minister to proceed with the Second Stage of the Bill now to come before the House.

Why? I do not see any reason why that should be.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn