Deputy O'Malley pointed out that if the four persons chosen from the executive of the Irish Coursing Club went up for election at the first election six months after the coming into operation of the Act and none of them succeeded in being elected, all four would have to go and I would have to choose four others from the board then consisting of seven elected members and 14 of the old members. If my choice happened to fall on four of the 14 and four of them came out of the hat to stand for election at the end of 18 months and none of them succeeded they would also have to go. Now, I understood Deputy Walsh to say that he foresaw that if the whole existing executive went for election to-morrow en bloc it is highly likely the majority of them would be elected back again. I am trying to proceed on the assumption that we are all agreed in principle that something has to be done. I am trying to proceed on the assumption that we are all agreed in principle that there are four substantial interests involved in this whole business and that if we were to get a good Act it is highly unlikely that it would please all four interests in all its details.
Committee on Finance. - Greyhound Industry Bill, 1955—Committee Stage (Resumed).
Would the Minister say what four interests he has in mind?
The breeders, the racetrack proprietors, the Irish Coursing Club and the bookmakers.
That is a good change anyway.
I understand the general mind of this House is not to have futile proposals because something had to be done but to try to approach as near as we can to doing the best that could be done. I feel greatly indebted to Deputy O'Malley who at an early stage in the discussion said that any damn fool could stand up and tell you what not to do but that the most difficult thing is to tell you what should be done.
But there is a further difficulty if you tell the Minister what should be done and he will not take any notice.
On the whole, this Bill represents a reasonable effort to do what is essential to be done without trying to rub anybody's nose in the mud or without trying to steam-roller anybody and yet ensure that in the long run there will be set up a body truly representative of all the legitimate interests who will have the duty of operating the industry properly. My object has been to take the Minister clean out of this measure and to provide all sections of the industry with a machine and, if they want to work it properly, they can make a success of the industry and, if they want to run the industry to ruin, it is their own business.
I think it must be conceded on all sides that whatever differences may have arisen in recent years, the Irish Coursing Club which established itself in 1916 to try to effectively control coursing as it then was, did a very good job. It then undertook the wholly new problem of greyhound racing, having been originally designed to control coursing. All are agreed that the problems and difficulties of racing probably became more formidable than the board as constituted was fully equipped to deal with. Out of that difficulty the present situation has arisen. The only difference between the proposal in the Bill and the proposal in the amendment is that the proposal in the Bill introduces the principle of gradualness, that instead of tearing everything down and putting something entirely new in its place, we should gradually change over from the old dispensation to the new.
Deputy Walsh himself says that even if you did abolish the whole existing executive and sought to have a completely new one elected, most of the existing executive would come back. I do not think I misinterpret him when I say that he says that that is the highly likely result. All I am trying to do is to guard against the unlikely result of there being a revolutionary change in the personnel of the controlling body of the Irish Coursing Club with the consequential disruption that will ensue. I am simply seeking to have the change over from an undemocratic procedure of election, which past circumstances possibly rendered necessary, on to a new purely democratic basis in reasonable stages so as to preserve continuity.
I would ask Deputies who share my solicitude for the welfare of this industry to remember that, if you want by statute to establish a new framework for an existing institution, if you have any regard for fundamental principles of freedom and liberty you try, in so far as circumstances will allow, to have some regard for the rights of existing persons in respect of whose business you are in fact legislating. I think the preservation of continuity as a general rule is a good thing. I think revolutions very rarely produce satisfactory results.
As far as I can understand, the only difference between us on the two sides of the House at the moment is: is the personnel of this body to be changed over a period of two and a half years or over a period of two and a half months? The end result, in the opinion of Deputy Walsh, will be very probably much the same. All I want is that we will take things in steps. I would urge the House to accept my view in this regard so that continuity will be maintained so long as we have the assurance that at the end of two and a half years the board of control of the Irish Coursing Club will be chosen in toto on a strictly democratic basis by the clubs and tracks through their provincial bodies.
I can, of course, see that there are two points of view about almost any question. I have submitted this proposal to the House only after a protracted consideration and in the conviction that where you are seeking to reform an existing situation the policy of gradualness is infinitely preferable to that of revolution and, on that basis, I strongly recommend the proposal contained in the Bill for the consideration of the House.
I am inclined to subscribe to the view that, if change is to come, the more gradual and effective it can be the better. I am very glad to feel that the Minister will accept the siutation that this Bill will affect four major interests. I want to tell the Minister that I do not at all subscribe to his belief that it is not possible to arrive at a very effective measure that will give satisfaction to each of the four sections and that will give a goodwill impetus to the success of the measure. As the Committee Stage proceeds, I hope it will be possible, in the quietude of reasonable debate, to put that point of view to the House.
There is no doubt that this Bill has been bedevilled and is now entering the forum in a way which will not serve the best interests of the people whom we are endeavouring to serve. We should be here trying to find the best possible basis for this measure. It is agreed in principle on all sides of the House that such a measure is necessary. This is a Bill ideally suited to be the subject of a special committee. If it had been referred to a special committee it would have been possible in a non-acrimonious atmosphere to iron out certain differences.
I do feel that if we get down to discussing this Bill now with the common purpose of serving the best interests of this widespread and varied industry, we would be serving the interests of everybody a lot better. We should leave the thrust and parry of politics out of it. There is only a matter of tweedledum and tweedledee between the Minister's amendment and the suggestions made from the Front Benches of the Opposition. It is purely a question of whether it is going to be a sudden change or a gradual change, integrating in its ultimate analysis a slower eventual result. I want to say before we begin discussing all the various amendments that I hope the Minister will preserve his measure and that my friends on this side and on the other will approach the Bill on the basis of finding within its statutory provisions adequate and reasonable safeguards for all four sections involved —the Irish Coursing Club, the track owners, the bookmakers and the breeders—because I know that no matter what we may say in this House a few of us from all sides of the House could get together outside this chamber and have the difficulties ironed out in an hour.
I trust there has been no acrimony between the members on the other side of the House because certainly there has not been on this side. We are not taking an enormous interest in this Bill from the political viewpoint. We have friends here and outside who are interested in this industry in a very intimate way and I am trying only to ensure that the good prospects held out will not in any way be diminished by anything which we may do while discussing the Bill. This Bill represents the first opportunity we really have had to try to organise greyhound breeding. It deals with the breeding and showing of greyhounds, whether at coursing meetings or on tracks, in a way which will enable those interested in the industry to enjoy the utmost benefits. This is the first chance we have had, particularly since greyhound racing came into being.
I accept from the Minister that this sort of change should be achieved by the adoption of the principle of gradualism to which the Minister refers, but the question therefore arises that if a person is going to erect a building, does he begin with the foundation or with the roof? It seems to me that the question really at issue here in this amendment is that the Minister proposes to begin with the roof and perhaps to try and build the fabric before the foundation is laid. If I were to try to ascertain what was the guiding principle upon which the Minister has proceeded in developing the provisions of this Bill I should think he would say that the first thing we had to do was to remove the greyhound industry in toto out of the atmosphere to which, unfortunately, it has been tethered and confined hitherto. He should have said that we have got to break down certain vested interests which, in a perfectly legitimate way, have grown up and asserted undue influence in the management and control of this industry.
Therefore, I would expect the Minister to say that we should try to form the Irish Coursing Club into a reorganised body on a representative basis because, if you like, the Irish Coursing Club is a vital element in the sporting side of the industry. I think that is the issue which is running through everything contained in the Schedule, particularly through Clause 4 of the Schedule. The Minister is, of course, familiar with the change which provides for the virtual election of the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club. But the provincial committees must be composed in such a way as will ensure that the executive committee reflects the general strength and development of the sporting side of the industry throughout the country.
All we are asking in this amendment is that the Minister's proposal to reorganise and reconstitute the Irish Coursing Club upon a representative basis will be given effect to before the Minister sets up the Racing Board. I think that an eminently reasonable proposal and I certainly did not think it would involve any undue delay. At most, I should say the whole business of reorganising the Irish Coursing Club could be completed within 18 months or two years. We have waited long enough for the Bill and there is no reason why we should be in such a hurry to set up a board that might be inconsistent with the principle which the Minister has chosen to try and make effective through this Bill. For that reason I would like if the Minister would reconsider the suggestion put forward in our amendment. I think the public reaction to the acceptance of a proposal of this kind would be very favourable. It would certainly give those who are engaged in the industry as breeders and owners more confidence in the future than they are likely to have if they find that in fact the Racing Board of the future is dominated by the existing vested interests.
I do not want to say anything that would reflect upon the persons who have been in charge of Irish coursing since 1916. Naturally when people have been in power for a long time the people tend to resent the fact that they have been in power. They like to put down the mighty from their seats, as we ourselves had good reason to know in 1948. They would not like, therefore— I was going to say resent but it might be too strong a word—to see the existing interests in the Irish Coursing Club dominate the Racing Board as undoubtedly they will do if the Racing Board is set up before the Irish Coursing Club is reorganised. For that reason I would hope the Minister would consider our amendment sympathetically. I think he will, on reflection, see that, as I have said, it is more consistent with the principle which has guided him in framing the Bill than Section 6 as it stands actually is.
I do not want to appear to repeat arguments already submitted but I think it is relevant to point out to Deputy MacEntee the flaws in his argument. On this board, I have undertaken under the Bill to choose four persons out of the 21 who constitute the executive of the Irish Coursing Club. Of that 21 persons seven must go for election in the most democratic way at the end of six months. As Deputy O'Malley pointed out, if my four chosen representatives on the board happened to be among the first seven out of the hat they have to go for re-election. If one or all of them fails to return as representative members he ceases to be a member of the board.
That is after the board has been in existence.
For six months.
That is the danger of the six months.
At the end of two and a half years, every member of the board nominated on the executive must be an elected person. It would appear that Deputy Briscoe apprehends that in this first six months irreparable damage might be done which could not be undone. They can do nothing irrevocable, nothing that cannot be undone by the board at any time. Suppose two or three of the persons I nominate—remember I choose them out of 21 for nomination to the board— lose their positions on the executive of the Irish Coursing Club when they go to election and thus drop off the board, I have to put on three persons in their places from the remaining members of the Irish Coursing Club executive, now constituted of 14 surviving and seven elected members. If those who had lost their position as members of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club had collaborated with the other members of the board to do something of which the people strongly disapproved the four new nominees on the board drawn from the executive of the Irish Coursing Club—as I think Deputy Walsh himself said——
No, I did not say any such thing.
I think you did.
No, I did not.
Very well, I accept that. If after six months it appeared that something is being done by the original body which falls to be undone it can be undone but—bear this in mind—we must have somebody to supervise the elections which will gradually change the personnel of the executive of the Irish Coursing Club, and one of the functions of the board will be to do that.
They will make no appointments?
How do you mean?
The stewards.
They will carry on. It is the board of the Irish Coursing Club that makes the appointments of stewards and the like.
Under certain laws and regulations under this Bill?
But they will carry on. Ultimately, this control board will consist of four persons chosen by the Minister for Agriculture out of 21 persons to be elected by the clubs.
To be a majority of seven?
Yes.
That is the point.
I think that is a good principle, that the clubs, in fact, should have the right to nominate 21 from whom four of the governing control board should be drawn by the Minister for Agriculture.
I have tried to make the case, and I think I have made it, but no proposal for the regulation of an existing institution of this kind is likely to obtain universal assent. This, I believe, is as near equity as we can reach and it has the guarantee in it that every nominee to this board from this category must ultimately submit himself to the process of popular election. If he does not survive that even though nominated by me he ceases to be a member of the board of control.
There were moments when I thought Deputy MacEntee desired to sound an acrimonious note. I accept his assurance that he had no such intention.
Please do not provoke me.
I am not altogether sure that we will long debate this matter on the basis of the exchange of such reassurances but for the present at least I am prepared to accept that he desires to introduce no acrimony. I think I have explained my position in regard to every point that has been raised. I see there are two points of view, but I assure the House that in the interests of continuity and ultimate good working I am convinced that what I propose here is the best plan and I will urge the House to reject the amendment standing in the name of Deputy Ormonde.
The Minister's suggestions might appear attractive as an idea, but I think when you come down to working them out in practice they would not be practicable. My view of the matter is that if, after a certain period, seven of the 21 by lot submit themselves for election you must already have the fundamental organisation that is going to elect them.
Hear, hear!
You must have the affiliated or registered clubs listed and then you have the machinery there right away to do the whole job democratically as soon as that state of affairs has been organised. My view would be that from that point you are in the position immediately to appoint your provincial committees once you have the affiliated clubs registered and listed and give them the opportunity of having either a special meeting or an annual meeting where they will make their selections. There is nothing then from that stage on to prevent the election of 21 members.
I entirely agree it would be unwise to embark on that immediately without giving the individual clubs a chance, or time to organise. I would rather that the present body continue over a period and that this work should go on at the same time in the various districts and provinces. Then, say this time 12 months, you should be in a position to have the whole organisation set up and the nominations made because regardless of what we may say or do if we have a more or less ad hoc withdrawal of members from the executive, on the law of averages they may be distributed unevenly. It could be that you would have five members from the one province or district and another province or district might not be in that election at all with the nomination they should have of the men they were going to vote for. The Minister accepts, I am sure, that the law of averages would prevail——
It would be a very revolutionary assumption to believe it was going to be suspended.
Yes, but at the same time I would suggest to the Minister that the idea which he has submitted to us is not going to give us the results we are looking for because in two or in two and a half years we would have to be starting off all over again. Certain people would have been given certain appointments, certain work would be done and certain permits would have been issued. This Bill is the constitution and the clubs will form the view that their work should be going on in the meantime unless we give to a body with an elected minority and a nominated majority the power to rule all these things. It is better to start at the foundation and to build up and to wait until we have the organisation intact before we start setting up the board of control which will make the by-laws and give permits to the clubs and tracks where they think the sport will be properly controlled and organised on a democratic basis.
I think Deputy MacCarthy has made a strong argument for the Minister's amendment.
Might I point out that this is an amendment from outside of the House?
It is the Minister's suggestion. I think that what has just been said is a very potent argument for the Minister's point of view because Deputy MacCarthy is anxious that this new era come into being as soon as possible. I am going to suggest to him that if, as has been suggested by Deputy MacEntee, there are certain vested interests that had too great control in the past, a continued position of flux before the establishment of the new board would surely allow these vested interests to use whatever powers they have to better advantage than they have ever used them before. Surely if the Minister is going to bring about the establishment of the board quickly it will lead to an impetus that will get the provincial organisations under way far more quickly. With the actual establishment of the board you will find that the various bodies who will be able to influence the election of the committee of the Irish Coursing Club will be most anxious to safeguard their own rights and to give effect to whatever powers they have under the Constitution. It will be their desire, in their own interest, to get the machinery into operation speedily and quickly.
That is the case that Deputy MacCarthy was really making. It is a question of approach and of deciding which approach is likely to give the most speedy result. I feel that once you bring the board into operation you will find that all the various sub-bodies that integrate into the whole will begin to look after their own interests infinitely quicker than if we did not at once constitute the board. If we leave the position in a state of flux you might find the inordinate delay, which we have already had, extended further and further.
I think the Minister has heard a number of reasons why we object to Section 6 as framed and why we deem that democratic election at the beginning of the board is essential. If the Minister looks at sub-section (2) of Section 6 he will understand why some of the arguments are adduced. The Minister's idea is that from the present executive of the Irish Coursing Club he will select four nominees to be the majority of the board that is to come into existence. Sub-section (2) points out that: "The board shall be a body corporate with perpetual succession and an official seal (which shall be judicially noticed) and power to sue and be sued in its corporate name and to hold land." In the interregnum period, until the democratic elections take place, so many things can be done which will be binding on the successors who will be the democratically elected representatives of all the clubs.
Surely the Minister will agree that this would be tantamount to the handing over to the present Irish Coursing Club complete control of the new board in its infant state and every action they take will be binding on their successors. It is to avoid the possibility that these people might do something or many things which subsequently could be shown to be not in accordance with the wishes of the properly elected representatives that our amendment is essential.
It is all right for Deputy Collins to put his interpretation on what Deputy MacCarthy has said. I do not agree that that is what Deputy MacCarthy meant. Deputy MacCarthy was in complete accord with the amendment to Section 6 in the name of Deputy Ormonde. The Minister has patiently listened to all these arguments and has very reluctantly come down to the points at issue between us. There is a distinct issue. It is nonsense to say that if there is to be a delay of six months or 12 months that that is going to end the possibility of saving this industry and of bringing the four interests concerned under the protection of the Bill when it becomes an Act.
I was glad to hear the Minister recognise that there are four interests and that the properly elected representatives of those four interests will ultimately have representation on this board. We will see that when we come to the section that refers to it but in the meantime there is a fundamental difference between the meaning of Section 6 and the meaning of amendment No. 2. It must be related to sub-section (2) of Section 6.
The board could change its mind at any time even under sub-section (2).
If the board selects an individual and gives him a job or position does not any successor body, if it wishes to change that appointment, leave itself open to a very substantial claim for compensation?
Not necessarily. It depends on the conditions of the contract.
Suppose the conditions are iron-bound, what then? If the board selects first-class legal brains to draw up a contract which cannot be easily broken by the next group which comes along, is it not nonsense to say that any successor body will have the right to put that contract aside? That contract will have the official seal of the board, judicially noted. The contract will be a binding contract.
Now, I have illustrated one particular facet. The same argument applies to licences. There will be greyhound racing track licences. It is not suggested by the Minister that in the interregnum, as I have described it, this board will refuse to license tracks. If they so license tracks who can subsequently take away the licences provided the licensees carry out all the rules and regulations and submit to all the provisions of this Bill?
I think the Minister ought to have another "think" in relation to this section. He should recognise that there is an alternative, the alternative I have suggested. If the Minister feels there must be some group, or body, at the helm for the purpose of ensuring all that Deputy MacCarthy envisages should take place and could take place, why not put in a caretaker, with no power of appointment and no power of committing himself to contracts until all the prerequisite arrangements have been made for election? I do not think anyone could object to that course. As the Bill is now framed, the Minister can appoint four members on a body of seven. The Minister will have the responsibility of appointing the chairman. He will have the further responsibility of appointing the secretary. There will be an appointed board with full powers to lay all the foundation-stones for the running of an organisation which purports in the Bill to be a democratically elected board and which can never escape from whatever will be laid down for it by this elected or appointed board in the beginning.
Surely Deputy Briscoe must not allow his own eloquence to carry him away.
It is not my eloquence; it is my interpretation of the situation that is carrying me away. I wish I were eloquent.
The picture is drawn that the board, as constituted, will lay down the law of the Medes and the Persians that no subsequent Act can change. The truth of it is that the board has no power to do any irrevocable thing. If it makes an unpropitious contract of the kind envisaged by the Deputy, its successor can revoke the contract, paying the penalty if needs be.
That is the point.
There is the rub!
What is this point? I want to refresh the memories of Deputies opposite. I refer to Volume 153, column 1645 of the Official Report. I was speaking:—
"One of the conditions precedent to introducing this legislation was that there should be incorporated in the Schedule to the Bill and submitted to Dáil Éireann a new constitution for the Irish Coursing Club which placed upon them the obligation for a period of two and a half years to secure an executive for the Irish Coursing Club, every single member of which would be democratically elected by the coursing clubs and racetracks in a fair proportion. Is there any other better way in which you can secure democratic control?
Mr. Walsh: No. Do not appoint your board until you have that done.
Mr. Dillon: We are all agreed about that. I think we are all agreed that if you get such a democratically controlled body it is a good thing that they should exercise a predominant influence.
Mr. Briscoe: There is no doubt about that."
A democratically elected board.
The quotation continues:—
"Mr. Dillon: Then we are brought down to this point. When you go to appoint the first board, do not give the undertaking that you will choose four of the seven members from the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club. I want to remind the Deputies that Oireachtas Eireann passed the Horse Racing Bill in 1945 and this Oireachtas unanimously accepted the principle that we should give to the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Club an absolute majority on the racing board."
That was done at the instance of Deputy MacEntee and his colleague, who is now President of the Republic. Is that not so?
There is no analogy between horse racing and dog racing.
By the Lord Harry, there is no analogy!
None.
These are the people who gave, at the instance of Deputy MacEntee, a permanent and absolute majority on the Racing Board. Now I am rebuked—no more than that—for giving six months' tenure of office to four from the lists that I will read out here on condition that they seek election at the hands of the clubs and tracks. But here is the body which, at the instance of the Fianna Fáil Government, got a permanent majority on the Racing Board.
And a seat to the bookmakers.
Wait until you hear who the bookmakers sat down with: Sir Cecil Stafford King Harman, Bart.; Colonel S. S. Hill-Dillon, C.B.E., D.S.O.; Lieut.-Col. Harold Boyd-Rochfort, M.B.E., D.S.O., M.C.; Sir Richard Brooke, Bart.; Colonel R. B. Charteris.
What does "Bart." mean. It is quite new to me, the title "Bart.".
Why is the Minister not changing the board?
Oh, not at all. They are most excellent men. Wait until you hear them: the Earl of Donoughmore, the Earl of Drogheda, the Earl of Dunraven, C.B., C.B.E., M.C.; the Earl of Fingall, Commander Peter Fitzgerald, Captain Fowler, R. Laidlaw, Lieut.-Colonel Giles Loder, Sir Percy Loraine, Bart.; Major McCalmont, Captain Charles Moore——
On a point of order. From what is the Minister reading?
The list of the members of the Turf Club.
Is it the current list?
Who are all these people?
The people whom your Party insisted should have a majority on the Racing Board.
Give us the names of the Racing Board.
I will give the Deputy the list.
One could scarcely find less objectionable people than those the Minister has read out.
If we turn to the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee, there they had their choice: Colonel Croft, Captain H. de Burgh, the Duke de Stackpoole, the Earl of Donoughmore, Captain R.A.B. Filgate, O. H. Eustace-Duckett, Sir Ernest Goff, Bart., Colonel S. S. Hill-Dillon, C.B.E., D.S.O.
On a point of order.
Wait until I read out the rest.
Are these little addenda, such as D.S.O. and M.C., not the nomenclature of a nation, the supporters of which the Minister is now holding up to ridicule? Is that not the very nation the Minister wanted this country to defend in the last war?
I cannot say that.
Wait until you hear the body we propose to have in a majority on the board of control subject to their obligation to submit themselves for election within six months, 18 months and 30 months of the passing of this Bill to the coursing clubs and racetracks of their respective provinces. Here are their names——
Would the Minister continue and give us the names of the Racing Board?
Order!
Here is the group: B. Rahill, P.J. Henehan, A.J. Morris, T. Aherne, J.D. Bruton, J.M. Collins, J.P. Frost, P.P. Coffey, Con Murphy, Rev. W. Dowling, P.P., Rev. E. O'Flanagan, P.P., M.J. Mulhall, James Clarke, P.J. Cox——
On a point of order. I assume it will be quite in order to discuss the members of the Racing Board and their qualifications and the personal qualities of the members of the Irish Turf Club, as well as those of the members of the Irish Coursing Club. The Minister is putting them in now for debate and we would like to know how far this will go. I have something to say about some of these gentlemen in a moment.
The Minister may not discuss the personalities of the people he has mentioned. I take it he is merely mentioning them as a contrast between those who were appointed on one occasion and those he proposes to appoint.
The qualifications of these men are——
The personalities of these people may not be discussed.
The names read out by the Minister have no connection with the greyhound industry or the Racing Board.
The names I have just read out are those of members of the Irish Coursing Club from which I must draw four names under my proposal that they will go for election to the clubs and tracks in their province within six, 18 and 30 months. This is the remainder of the list of names: J.M. Ryan, J. Clyne, M.T. Connolly, Captain J. Ross, W.J. Irwin—the latter two from Belfast, well calculated to endear themselves to the heart of Deputy MacEntee—P.J. Hogan, and P. F. O'Donoghue.
If we intend to have a majority on the greyhound racing board is it not a damn sight easier to get four decent men out of that bunch——
You did not always think that.
I do not think we had the benefit of Deputy Walsh's counsel in those days. We must remember, however, that the Fianna Fáil Government bound us to choose in perpetuity people for membership of the Racing Board with the added condition that they need never go to any election at all.
How are they replaced when they die off?
By co-option.
Will the Minister give the names of the present Racing Board?
I would, but the Deputies get vexed whenever they realise the absurdity of their own contentions. The present case of the Opposition is that you must not bind yourself to choose four men from the list I have read out beginning with Barney Rahill and ending with Pat O'Donoghue.
On a point of order. The Minister is addressing himself to amendment No. 3 and not to amendment No. 2. It says nothing about the composition of the new greyhound board. There is not a word about it there.
The Minister, I understand, is meeting points raised by the Opposition.
No.
We mentioned no individuals at all.
You took damn good care you would not.
We will bring them in on the next section.
The complaint is that it is altogether wrong to choose four members from this list beginning with Rahill and ending with O'Donoghue, with the additional proviso that these nominees must go for election at the hands of the clubs and racetracks within 30 months at the most. But it was perfectly right to provide under the Racing Act that, as regards the list of names I read out in connection with the Racing Board, the members being chosen by co-option, you should bind yourself for all time. I am not arguing the merits of the arrangement that was made at the time the Racing Act was passed but I am trying to bring home the fact that my proposal simply is that from the list which I have read out for you of the members of the standing committee of the Coursing Club I will undertake to choose four persons. I will do the choosing from that list and within 30 months of my choice every single one of them must undergo popular election at the hands of the coursing clubs and the tracks of their particular province. If any one of them fails to be elected they will cease to be members of the board and I will have to choose somebody else to take his place. Ultimately at the end of a two and a half year period every one of the four nominees of the Minister for Agriculture from the members of the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club must be persons democratically elected at the hands of those engaged in the sport.
The only fundamental difference between us is that I believe that it is worth while preserving some continuity. As I interpret Deputy Walsh's intervention and Deputy Briscoe's intervention, they agree with me that if the executive of the Irish Coursing Club is elected it ought to have a majority on the board.
No, not at all.
Read it again.
What does it mean? Deputy Walsh says: "Do not appoint your board until you have done that." I say: "We are all agreed on that. I think we are all agreed if you get a democratically controlled body it is a good thing that they should exercise a predominant influence on the board," and Deputy Briscoe says: "There is no doubt about that."
But they must be democratically elected and if you follow out our discussion you will find we said there should not be four members of the Irish Coursing Club represented on a board of seven.
I understood Deputy Walsh and Deputy Briscoe to say——
That you must reorganise the Irish Coursing Club first.
——that if the executive was democratically elected it should have a predominant influence on the board.
I objected to that.
Here is what you said.
The Minister is reading that into it.
You say: "Have the elections before you appoint the board." I say I must appoint the board to supervise the elections but the person that I appoint is subject to the hazard of going to election and if he should fail to make the grade he loses the benefit of the appointment I have given. Deputy Walsh says that if the existing executive went to election the greater number of them would get back.
No.
The Deputy said that an hour ago.
You said you believed if the present members of the Irish standing committee went for election the vast majority of them would get back.
Yes.
The majority, but it meant certain exceptions.
As I say, in the meantime we must carry on and the individual I appoint must face the hazard of election and if he fails he must go.
It is too late.
The Minister is electing the Government before the Dáil.
I do not think that analogy is strictly apposite but you must provide, when you set up a new dispensation, a provisional Government to carry on. If, as you know, we had suspended the British Government in this country and had then a lacuna with no Government, the situation would have been very awkward. What you did was, put in a provisional Government which would supervise the election to Parliament which would then elect a permanent Government. The perspicacious Deputy put his finger on the very point. There must be somebody to supervise the elections which are envisaged here in the case of the Irish Coursing Club and that body will be the new board.
Is not the provision there, existing?
There is no board in existence.
A standing committee.
Exactly, and it is from that standing committee that I have to draw my board.
No, you could not do it.
When you catch them on one leg they leap off and stand on another leg. One says: "You must do it from the present standing committee." Deputy Walsh says: "No, you must have another committee". I have tried to make my position as clear as I could.
You have made it as dirty as you could.
We must arrive at finality at some stage. There are two sides to every case. I think I have made my case as clearly as I could make it and must ask the House to reject the amendment.
I am not going to be acrimonious.
Look at your colleague in hysterical laughter.
There have been some aspects of the Minister's speech which certainly astonished me. I do not know, I suppose they were relevant to the amendment under debate. The Minister read a long list of the membership of the Irish Turf Club. In doing so he was careful to heap scorn upon these gentlemen because they had inherited, in some cases, British titles, in other cases they had British honours conferred upon them. It is the first time I ever knew that any member with the blood of Mathews in his veins scorned a British title or British honour. I think it was very unwise of the Minister to have treated us to this exhibition of——
Lack of poise, call it.
He left the Commonwealth.
——this exhibition, really, of ill manners because these gentlemen are not here to defend themselves.
Against what?
Some of them are very substantial ratepayers in this country, and have so remained, and have been good citizens, as we know and, despite the fact that some of them may have had British honours conferred on them, they have shown—not all of them, but some of them—that they are as good Irishmen as any who sits on either side of this House. I do object to the manner in which the Minister selected a sample. He did not give an exhaustive list of the Irish Turf Club. If he had, he would have had to include in the membership the name of Mr. William T. Cosgrave, the father of his colleague in the cabinet——
Who is chairman.
——a gentleman, who was president of the executive council, who was the political leader of the Minister for Agriculture. Does it reflect upon him that he is associated in the Turf Club with some of the gentlemen whose names the Minister has bandied about quite unwarrantedly in this House? He did not say that, at the time at which the Racing Board was constituted, the late Deputy Patrick Joseph Ruttledge was a member of the Irish Turf Club, a member who served this country in arms—and I never heard that the Minister served this country with anything except his tongue—a man who was Minister for Justice in this country and who can at least claim to have broken the totalitarian movement with which some of the Ministers were associated. The Minister read a long list of names.
The personality of the members read out by the Minister for Agriculture may not be discussed and I cannot allow it to be discussed in one way because, if it is discussed in one way by Deputy MacEntee, it may equally be discussed in another way by the other side. I must ask the Deputy to desist.
I am not going to read out "Major So-and-So, O.B.E.,""Major So-and-So, V.C." I shall not indulge in the sort of antics in which the Minister indulged.
These were the titles that the Minister read out from the list he had.
With contempt.
I beg to ask you to permit me to read out the names of some gentlemen who have no titles. Among these I will mention the name of Mr. Joseph McGrath, who was a member of the Government of the Irish Free State, of the Provisional Government, who was a comrade in arms with many of us on both sides of the House.
I cannot allow the personalities of these people to be discussed. The Deputy may refer to Mr. McGrath, Mr. Cosgrave—just to mention them by name—but I cannot allow him to discuss their personalities.
Then there was Isidore J. Blake, Mr. J.G. Duggan, who I presume was known to many of us on each side of the House, Mr. J. P. Keane. What is the use of the Minister getting up here and, because he has a bad case, trying to muddy the waters here and at the same time holding up to odium men who, whatever army they may have served and whatever their occupation may have been, at least are citizens of this country and did not come into this debate one way or another until the Minister dragged them in.
I do not want to add any acrimony to these discussions but, as a public man, I have a duty to the citizens of this country and I object very strongly to the sort of thing that we have had to listen to here this evening.
To try to get back to the amendment, I want again to remind the House, through you, Sir, that the amendment under discussion is amendment No. 2, which says:—
"There shall, by virtue of this section, be established immediately after the reconstruction of the Irish Coursing Club as provided in Section 26 of this Act, a board to be styled and known as the greyhound industry board to fulfil the functions assigned to it by this Act."
The critical phrase in that amendment is "after the reconstruction of the Irish Coursing Club", and I would submit that the only thing really relevant is whether or not the Irish Racing Board should be established before or after the reconstruction of the Irish Coursing Club. That is the only point at issue and that is really what we should be addressing ourselves to. I do not think Deputy Seán Collins addressed himself to that. He spoke about gradualism and referred to the fact that the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club was going to be reconstituted in three instalments.
It seemed to me that the Minister was labouring under the same misconception that we were debating amendment No. 3 and not amendment No. 2. I want again to stress that we are debating amendment No. 2 and that the only question arising out of that amendment is whether or not the greyhound industry board will be set up before or after the Irish Coursing Club has been reorganised and reconstituted. That is the only question at issue on this amendment. It seems to me that we are going merely to make the election principle effective in relation to the constitution of the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club. Then we should at least defer action in setting up a greyhound industry board until that reconstruction has been made effective.
The Minister has said that the Greyhound Industry Board can do nothing which is irrevocable. Of course if you want to suggest that a misconceived action can be reversed, if you want to face the consequences of that reversal whatever they may be, then the action is not irrevocable. But as Deputy Briscoe has pointed out and as the Minister has been constrained to admit, things can be done by virtue of the provisions of sub-section (2) of Section 6 and under Section 12 which, if the successors of the first members of the Racing Board attempted to revoke them, might involve the Racing Board in very substantial claims for compensation and for very substantial monetary payments.
I do not think the Minister, with all due respect, realised what is involved. Under Section 4, as has been pointed out, the reconstitution of the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club upon a representative basis will not be completed for a period of two and a half years from the date upon which the Minister brings into effect Section 26 of the Bill. I do not know whether in fact there is anything which binds the Minister to bring Section 26 into operation. I have tried to get through the Bill but I have not been able to see anything which makes it mandatory upon the Minister to set on foot a reorganisation of the Irish Coursing Club on or from the date upon which he sets up the greyhound industry board and therefore it may be possible—of course I may be completely in error—for the Minister so to defer action in relation to Section 26 that the greyhound industry board might continue to exist with its personnel drawn from the council of the existing Irish Coursing Club, unreformed and unreorganised.
I may be wrong in that and if so the argument falls to the ground. Under Section 12 the racing board or the greyhound industry board is empowered to purchase or take on lease land, to build, equip and maintain offices and other premises. It is conceivable that some of the buildings or offices or lands which the greyhound industry board might think it advisable to acquire or lease might belong to the Irish Coursing Club as it exists to-day. I think that is a point to be borne in mind because it is conceivable that a conflict of interests may arise between the members of the greyhound industry board who are members of the Irish Coursing Club as members of the board, and other members of the Irish Coursing Club as members of the latter body. That is a possibility. I do not say that it is a probability.
What about sub-section (2)?
It is a fundamental of clean administration that people should be careful, when making appointments, to ensure they will not be placed in such a position that a conflict of interests may even appear to arise, let alone arise, and therefore it is important I think that the Minister should defer setting up this board until the Irish Coursing Club has been reorganised.
What about sub-section (2)?
I wish the Deputy would have manners and not interrupt. I did not interrupt him.
What about sub-section (2) of Section 12?
I have already dealt with sub-section (2) of Section 12.
You have not. You ran away from it.
Would the Deputy wait? I shall read it in order to show the intelligence with which some Deputies studied this Bill and the sort of intelligence they bring into discussions. Sub-section (2) of Section 12 reads:—
"The board may sell or lease any offices or premises held by it which are no longer required for the due performance of its functions".
So here is the position: The board, composed of a majority of persons who are representatives of the Irish Coursing Club may acquire leases, bona fide, if the Deputy likes, may acquire some premises or some property belonging, say, to the Irish Coursing Club—and we know what a mess these properties are in. They may acquire something and then the Deputy wants to suggest to me that as a safeguard against that we have sub-section (2) which would enable them to do this: first of all, to acquire——
That is not my suggestion at all.
——properties at exorbitant prices and sell them at insufficient and inequitable prices.
No, they cannot do anything irrevocable and the Deputy knows that.
I did not say anything was irrevocable. Deputy Briscoe said and the Minister admitted that you can revoke or undo almost anything provided you are prepared to pay the price.
But——
Sir, I want to address the Chair and not continue this——
Deputy Collins will get every opportunity to make his speech.
Indeed I will, and I will take it too.
I want to come to the point I was trying to make. I think I have shown to the House that there are circumstances in which a conflict of interest may arise. I do not say it will arise but still the possibility is there and this conflict of interest may appear to arise even if it does not in truth arise. For the first six months, at any rate, the Minister has told us that the members of the Irish Coursing Club would be members of the greyhound industry board and will function, the whole four of them, and they will be irremovable during that period. The Minister then wants us to proceed on the assumption that because one-third of the members of the executive committee have to retire after six months automatically the whole four of the members of the greyhound racing board—now, that was the implication and I do not think the Minister expected that we would really accept that position——
What position?
That the whole four would retire at the end of six months.
Oh, no.
The fact of the matter is that the odds are two to one that not one of the four might retire for two and a half years because the first seven, or one-third, would be chosen by lot and, as I said, the odds on any one of these four being chosen among the first one-third to retire is two to one on. The odds, strange to say, diminish in the next year and at the end of 12 months they become an even-money chance.
That is what I said.
A Deputy
No betting?
I would not be paid if I won those bets. The odds become an even money chance against any one of these four being drawn by lot to retire. Therefore, as I say, there is a possibility—and a not insignificant possibility—that the first four members to be nominated by the Minister may continue in office for at least two and a half years. During that period, which is the formative period of the board, there are bound to be discussions and negotiations between the greyhound board and the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club, which I think would be much better conducted, or at least would be much less open to the sort of criticism that will be made about what the board does if this amendment were accepted. As the Minister has said himself, the board cannot satisfy everyone and every person who feels he ought to have benefited by the board's actions and who fails to benefit by the board's actions will go out and undoubtedly ascribe to the board the meanest and least presentable motives.
I would say that in the interests of the board itself it would be much better if this amendment were to be accepted and if the Minister were to defer setting up the greyhound board until after the executive committee of the Irish Coursing Club has been reconstituted upon a truly representative basis. That is the only question involved in this amendment. Questions about how the board is to be constituted will arise on other lines but the only amendment before the House now is amendment No. 2, which deals with the simple question of timing, whether we shall set up the board before the Irish Coursing Club has been reorganised and reconstituted upon a properly representative basis or whether we should do as suggested in the Bill.
The burden of the argument is that out of the list, beginning with Barney Rahill and ending with P.F. O'Donoghue, I cannot get four honest men.
That is not the argument.
That is the proposal that is put to me. My answer to that is: I can get four honest men out of that list but, even though I choose four honest men, they all voluntarily put themselves on the hazard of popular election at the hands of the coursing clubs and tracks of the provinces from which they come. That is the measure of my claim—that out of that 21 I can get four honest men. But there is the additional safeguard that within two and a half years every one of them will have submitted themselves to popular election by those engaged in the industry, and I am rebuked by a Party which came into this House and laid it down that the majority of the Racing Board was to be chosen from the lists of the Turf Club and the Irish National Hunt Steeplechase Committee, the names of only some of whose members I have read out—there are many other names on both lists—with this additional proviso that they were self-perpetuating and would never have to face defeat which the whole 21 here are bound to face. I can get four honest men out of that 21; I could get four times four honest men out of that 21.
They are hard to get now.
All I am asking the House to do is not to accept my certificate to that effect, but to accept my proposal subject to this additional guarantee that whatever board I choose will in the course of the next two and a half years have to submit themselves democratically to the clubs and tracks of the provinces and if they do not survive that test my nomination ceases to have any effect on their behalf. I am simply trying to operate a system that will work and not tear the whole of this——
Nobody asked you to tear anything.
If Deputy MacEntee craves or desires acrimony or abusive language it need cause no dismay. Deputy MacEntee is very strong on throwing mud on Monday and banishing the recollection of what he did from his mind within a week. The mud was thrown on the Second Stage of this Bill and I do not want to refresh Deputy MacEntee's memory about peculiar, hinting, slanderous mud he saw fit to throw. The followup is to-day. Now, what in the name of Providence interest has Deputy MacEntee in greyhounds? The purpose is to come in and throw mud.
I do not think you ran too many of them yourself.
Oireachtas Éireann put me where I am and, so long as I am here, I have a very great interest in greyhounds and everything appertaining to them and no compliment to Deputy McGrath. It was not by his wish or vote I got here; it was in spite of both, but I have a very intimate interest in greyhounds now, by the authority of the people.
You do not know what you are talking about.
Deputy MacEntee threw plenty of mud on the Second Stage of this Bill but I can say I would find it a damn sight easier to get four honest men from the list beginning with Barney Rahill and ending with P.F. O'Donoghue than I would in either of the other two lists. If anyone does not like that he can lump it.
We must bring this business to an end someway. I have said my say and I stand on the position as I have tried to explain it. I think Deputy MacEntee has succeeded in bringing a note of acrimony into what was a reasonably sensible discussion until he came in. I ask the Dáil to reject the amendment and accept the alternative proposal.
We came into the House in an effort to make this Bill work and to make it a Bill which will be in the interests of the industry. When speaking on the Second Stage I overlooked the fact that Deputy Barry was one of the men who signed the report. The Minister states that he can find honest men on the standing committee of the Irish Coursing Club but, according to Deputy Barry, when he signed that report which was presented to the Minister, these people were not capable of doing their job.
The Minister now wants to regularise the work of these people in the future. That is just what he wants to do. However, if they have failed to do their job, is there now any guarantee that they are going to do better in the future? We want to give an opportunity to the people who are interested in the greyhound industry to go on the standing committee so that they will be given a chance to sit on the board. I do not want to be acrimonious in this debate. I am trying to make the Bill a workable Bill, one that will be accepted by the people engaged in the industry as being the most workable Bill that this House could produce. I believe that if the Minister accepts the amendment the Bill will be accepted as such by these people. It is only a matter of giving to these 140 representatives of coursing clubs and tracks an opportunity, through the provincial councils, of electing their representatives to the standing committee and then the Minister can select from that executive his representatives on the board.
Why does the Minister object to doing that? What is urging him to refuse it? It is not a question of time. This can be done next week or in the next two weeks if there is a will to do it. It is not going to hold up the Bill and if the Minister gets to work on it right now it will be done before the Bill leaves the House. The clubs are affiliated and their representatives are known and it is only a question of approaching the provincial councils and having the councils appoint the executive. If the Minister accepts the amendment they will get to work at once.
In my opinion the Irish Coursing Club failed to control greyhound racing because they were not designed to control that sport. That is not a failure of character but a failure of organisation and this Bill proposes to set that organisation right.
The Minister has accused me of throwing mud and of introducing acrimony into the debate. The foundation for that statement is that I reminded the House of what the Advisory Committee, which the Minister set up to investigate the greyhound racing industry, had said about the manner in which racing and coursing in this country had been conducted under the control of the Irish Coursing Club. I have here a copy of the report which is signed, not only by Deputy Barry, but also by Mr. Peter P. Wilkinson. He has not an O.B.E. or an M.C. but he has the confidence of the Minister for Agriculture. We must take it that he is a man of substance and stamp. On page 83 of that report here is what the members of the Advisory Committee have to say as the final result of their final investigation:—
"We have found that no branch of the industry as at present conducted is entirely free from criticism. In connection with breeding and coursing, many well defined existing rules have not been enforced and have gradually come to be ignored, thus giving rise to irregularities and more or less serious abuses. But it is in connection with greyhound racing that the most serious abuses have been practised with impunity, and it is here that the unsavoury atmosphere has been created, which unfortunately and undeservedly, has come to be associated with the greyhound industry as a whole."
That could apply to the G.A.A.
Deputy Barry says that we might apply these words to other organisations. We are not trying to reform other organisations this evening but we are trying to reform the Irish Coursing Club and to put the Irish greyhound industry and the sports associated with it on a firm and sound foundation. I think there is no question of throwing mud. The Minister should face up to his responsibilities and give some weight to the words used by the committee which he himself appointed to investigate the industry. For that reason, we are asking that the board should not be set up until the Irish Coursing Club has reformed itself.
Tá.
- Barrett, Stephen D.
- Barry, Anthony.
- Beirne, John.
- Blowick, Joseph.
- Burke, James J.
- Byrne, Alfred.
- Byrne, Thomas.
- Casey, Seán.
- Coburn, George.
- Desmond, Daniel.
- Dillon, James M.
- Dockrell, Henry P.
- Dockrell, Maurice E.
- Donegan, Patrick S.
- Donnellan, Michael.
- Doyle, Peadar S.
- Dunne, Seán.
- Everett, James.
- Fagan, Charles.
- Finlay, Thomas A.
- Flanagan, Oliver J.
- Giles, Patrick.
- Glynn, Brendan M.
- Hughes, Joseph.
- Kenny, Henry.
- Kyne, Thomas A.
- Larkin, James.
- Leary, Johnny.
- Lindsay, Patrick J.
- Lynch, Thaddeus.
- McAuliffe, Patrick.
- MacBride, Seán.
- Collins, Seán.
- Coogan, Fintan.
- Corish, Brendan.
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Declan.
- Costello, John A.
- Crotty, Patrick J.
- Crowe, Patrick.
- Deering, Mark.
- MacEoin, Seán.
- McGilligan, Patrick.
- McMenamin, Daniel.
- Manley, Timothy.
- Morrissey, Dan.
- Murphy, Michael P.
- Murphy, William.
- O'Carroll, Maureen.
- O'Donnell, Patrick.
- O'Donovan, John.
- O'Hara, Thomas.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- O'Higgins, Thomas F.
- O'Sullivan, Denis J.
- Palmer, Patrick W.
- Pattison, James P.
- Reynolds, Mary.
- Roddy, Joseph.
- Rooney, Eamonn.
- Spring, Dan.
- Sweetman, Gerard.
- Tully, James.
- Tully, John.
Níl.
- Aiken, Frank.
- Allen, Denis.
- Bartley, Gerald.
- Blaney, Neil T.
- Boland, Gerald.
- Brady, Seán.
- Brennan, Joseph.
- Breslin, Cormac.
- Briscoe, Robert.
- Burke, Patrick J.
- Calleary, Phelim A.
- Carter, Frank.
- Colbert, Michael.
- Colley, Harry.
- Corry, Martin J.
- Cotter, Edward.
- Crowley, Tadhg.
- Cunningham, Liam.
- Davern, Michael J.
- de Valera, Eamon.
- Fanning, John.
- Flanagan, Seán.
- Flynn, Stephen.
- Geoghegan, John.
- Gilbride, Eugene.
- Gogan, Richard.
- Harris, Thomas.
- Hilliard, Michael.
- Kelly, Edward.
- Kenneally, William.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lahiffe, Robert.
- Lemass, Seán.
- Lynch, Celia.
- Lynch, Jack.
- MacCarthy, Seán.
- MacEntee, Seán.
- McGrath, Patrick.
- Maher, Peadar.
- Moher, John W.
- Mooney, Patrick.
- Moran, Michael.
- Moylan, Seán.
- O'Malley, Donough.
- Ryan, James.
- Smith, Patrick.
- Walsh, Thomas.