Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 8 May 1956

Vol. 157 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Local Government.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £2,911,970 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1957, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including grants to local authorities, grants and other expenses in connection with housing and miscellaneous grants.

The amount which the House is now being asked to provide together with the amount of the Vote on Account aggregate a net sum of £4,721,970 involving a net increase of £16,516 on the amount provided for the service of my Department in the last financial year.

The sum of £100,000 provided last year in Sub-head 1 (4) in respect of grants for housing schemes from the Transition Development Fund is replaced this year by a token provision of £5. Grants from the Transition Development Fund are no longer allocated to new housing schemes which rank for subsidy on the higher limits which were brought into operation in 1953 and no further specific liabilities under this head in respect of older schemes are anticipated. As against that saving, the contributions towards housing loan charges of local authorities involve an increase of £90,000 and the subsidy of sanitary services loan charges involves an increase of £45,000. There is no other variation in the Estimate which calls for special mention.

The number of dwellings completed by housing authorities in the year 1955-56 was 4,011. The total number of completions in the preceding year was 5,267. At the 1st April last, work was in progress on 6,017 dwellings as compared with 5,572 on the 1st April, 1955. The number of dwellings in tender on 1st April, 1956, was also higher than the corresponding number on the 1st April, 1955, the figures being 3,214 and 3,029 respectively. The overall picture of local authority housing activity is, therefore, that while the total number of dwellings completed in the last financial year was less than in the preceding year, the number of dwellings in course of erection or at tender in the current season is 9,231 as compared with 8,601 in the corresponding period last year. The volume of work actually in progress is higher now than in April, 1955, and the volume of employment has risen by about 200 men.

A decline in the overall volume of local authority housing work may be expected according as the arrears of housing needs of the country are met. We have already reached the position where the 1947 estimates of needs have been satisfied in full or are rapidly approaching satisfaction in about 20 county health districts and 24 urban districts. Further building is being undertaken in these areas only where it is established that further needs have arisen since 1947 or that the original estimates were inadequate.

One thousand three hundred and eleven houses were erected by the Dublin Corporation in the last financial year and last month 2,045 further dwellings were in course of erection and the dwellings in tender amounted to 815. Here, as in the overall national picture, the extent of work in progress is in excess of that in progress in the corresponding period last year.

When introducing my Estimate to the House last June, I expressed the belief that the average figure of housing output over the last six or seven years approaching 2,000 dwellings would be maintained in the City of Dublin, but I also pointed out that, for some years to come at least, no extraordinary acceleration of housing progress corresponding to that reached in 1950 and 1951 seemed likely. As I indicated on that occasion, there are limits on the corporation's activities because the city sewerage system has been loaded to capacity and that in turn has limited the scope of the areas available for development. In view of these considerations the current rate of corporation building is satisfactory.

The number of houses completed by the Cork Corporation in 1955-56 was 365 and satisfactory progress has been made as regards dwellings in tender and planning of additional schemes. The corporation has now a record of cumulative improvement in its housing output since 1953 and I wish to commend that body for its efforts and to congratulate it on its success.

The levels of building costs as reflected in local authority schemes are being kept under active survey and, as I informed the House last year, the practice of rejecting tenders which appear to be excessive has usually enabled more reasonable prices to be obtained.

Out of a total of 6,017 houses in progress on the 1st April, 1956, 916 were being undertaken by direct labour. About half of these related to schemes in the Cities of Dublin and Cork.

In the course of last year I established a committee to consider methods of simplifying the procedure in regard to the submission of housing plans by local authorities and their examination in the Department. I understand that the report of the committee will reach me shortly. Meanwhile, in July last, I informed local authorities that it would not be necessary for county councils to submit for my prior consideration proposals for the acquisition of sites for unserviced rural cottages where the number involved on any particular site did not exceed six, provided that the sites were certified by the local medical and technical advisers to be suitable or to be the best available and that grouped cottages should have a minimum curtilage of half an acre each.

It is estimated that the number of new houses erected by private persons and public utility societies in the year 1955-56 was 5,370 and the number of reconstructions by private persons 6,160. Both these figures were in excess of the corresponding figures for the previous financial year to the extent of about 500 new houses and 500 reconstructed houses. These figures, particularly those for reconstruction, are very encouraging. We have no detailed particulars of the age distribution of dwellings in the country but ordinary observation suggests that a high proportion of our dwellings are old and in need of repair or improvement to bring them up to modern standards.

Local authorities have adequate power to secure the repair of unsatisfactory dwellings and are required to survey their districts to ascertain what dwellings are unsatisfactory. Practical encouragement is provided in the form of State and local grants for reconstruction, repair or improvement works, including the conversion of houses into separate dwellings and the extension of houses to relieve prospective or actual overcrowding. It is my aim to encourage every effort at conservation of the stock of houses, both those of local authorities and of private persons, and I have taken every step which presented itself of voicing this encouragement. As part of my policy in this regard I am encouraging local authorities to arrange appropriate terms for the purchase of their dwellings by the tenants. Since 1953 sale schemes covering about 6,400 dwellings have been approved in urban areas but the tenants are slow to avail themselves of the terms, attractive though they seem. In the rural areas the tenants seem to be somewhat more willing to purchase and up to the present about one quarter of the total number of cottages included in purchase schemes have been vested in the tenants.

The number of town planning appeals received during 1955-56 was 263 as compared with 228 in the previous year. A number of these were settled by agreement between the appellants and the planning authorities, a practice which I encourage as an alternative to the exercise of my statutory powers of deciding appeals. About half the decided appeals were allowed with or without conditions and in the remainder the decisions of the planning authorities were upheld. It will be seen that the number of unsuccessful appeals is moderate in relation to the amount of building construction in which the local authorities deal with applications for permission.

Progress with water and sewerage schemes was maintained during the past year. Work on about 70 new schemes was commenced in the period and the number of schemes in course of construction at the end of the financial year was 128. The final stage of the North Dublin drainage scheme— the outfall works at Howth—came in course of construction during the year. If work proceeds for the remainder of its duration as smoothly as it has gone up to now, the scheme may be ready for operation by the summer of 1957. The North Dublin regional water supply has also made satisfactory progress. Several areas are already served by the pipe lines. The difficulty of acquiring a suitable site for the reservoir to serve Malahide has now been overcome.

With regard to rural water supplies, I communicated with county councils during the year asking them to give closer attention to their programmes of pumps and small water supplies and pointed out that the spread of rural electrification offered in many cases a ready means of improving the rural water supplies position both speedily and economically.

The fire fighting services have now been reorganised on a county basis in 22 of the counties and chief fire officers have been appointed in 19 counties.

The number of bathing accidents which occurred last year caused much concern. The successive tragedies which occurred last summer underlined the need to intensify the efforts of public authorities to avert as far as possible the recurrence of fatalities of this kind. Discussions were initiated with the Irish Red Cross Society with a view to improving the sanitary authorities' collaboration with the society's water safety campaign. Agreement was reached with the society as to the steps to be taken and a circular letter was then addressed to the sanitary authorities according sanction to a contribution by each authority to the society and bringing to their notice the willingness of the society to train people in rescue and resuscitation techniques and to organise groups known as water safety corps to provide a voluntary service at beaches, also their willingness to train life-guards for employment by local authorities and to advise local authorities as to the suitability, placing and care of life-saving equipment. As we are now at the onset of another summer season, I wish to appeal for every possible co-operation by official and voluntary bodies in this most important and laudable campaign for water safety.

Road Fund income from motor taxation, etc., was £5,085,600 in 1955-56 as compared with £4,771,400 for the previous year. The number of vehicles of all classes under current licence in August, 1955, was 226,998 as compared with 204,032 in August, 1954. Last year I announced an increase in the grant for county road improvement by £500,000 from £1,700,000 to £2,200,000. The figure for county roads has been increased again for the current year to £2,400,000 and the main road improvement grant has been reduced from £1,200,000 to £1,000,000. The grants to the county boroughs and Dún Laoghaire have been maintained at the same figure—£150,000, also the grants for small bridges, etc., for which the figure is also £150,000.

The only development arising out of these figures to which I need refer is the increase in the grant for county road improvement. This is an implementation of accepted Government policy to apply the major portion of the increase in Road Fund revenue towards the financing of a larger county road improvement programme.

Revised regulations on traffic signs pursuant to the powers conferred by the Local Government Act, 1955, are being prepared. The work so far as my Department is concerned is nearing completion. The regulations will, however, contain various drawings illustrative of the signs proposed and the printing will take some time. It is hoped that the regulations will be ready for publication in a few months. The preparation of amending bylaws is being undertaken by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and it is expected that they will be ready at the same time as the traffic sign regulations. At the same time as the new regulations come into force, I hope to have a new edition of the Department's Road Safety booklet published, incorporating the new road traffic signs. Deputies will observe that the existing statutory provisions are sufficient to enable us to make the regulations and bylaws to which I have referred and that they do not depend on an amendment of the existing road traffic legislation and that is something that should be noted.

A Road Traffic Bill is in course of preparation and will give Deputies an opportunity in due course of expressing their views on this important subject. I think it only right to mention, however, that, in my opinion, the paramount necessity is for the education of the educable in caution, courtesy and capability, whether they are pedestrians or drivers of vehicles. As to that element which does not respond to ordinary training or good counsel, I am being forced to the view that more stringent action is required in regard to them.

During the year under review I signed an agreement with the Motor Insurers' Bureau for the initiation of a scheme whereby claims for compensation against uninsured drivers will, in certain circumstances, be met by the bureau, without prejudice to the liability of the offending motor vehicle user. The scheme came into operation on the 1st January last.

I come now to my survey of the general financial position of local bodies. Excluding vocational education committees, committees of agriculture and harbour authorities, local revenue was £47.8 million in the past financial year and for the current year it has been estimated at £51.7 million. Of these amounts the State contributed about £21.4 million in 1955-56 and will be paying about £22.3 million in 1956-57. When income from other sources is taken into account the net amount falling on local rates for the past year was about £17.9 million (less than 37½ per cent. of the total expenditure) and is estimated at £19.4 million in the present financial year. Criticism of local expenditure and the increases in rate poundages has been fairly widespread in recent months. In so far as they represent pleas for economy in methods of work and conscientious conservation in administration I would add my voice to those pleas. Methods of rationalising work and procedure are under review by several committees on which officers of my Department and local officials are represented.

As has been pointed out by some of my colleagues as well as by myself a considerable proportion of the current increases in rates is referable to factors arising out of international economic movements having an impact on our national economy. The balance is due to the development of social services and other planned programmes which are gradually coming into full effect. As I have already remarked, the State is bearing a very substantial share of the increased expenditure. A casual glance at returns of rates made by county councils for the year 1939-40 will show that there has been an increase to about three times the poundage then struck. When one takes into account the additional and improved services that have evolved since 1939 and adverts to the change in the value of money which international strife and international inflation have created in the same period, it will be evident that rises in local rates are not out of proportion to general alterations in the economic structure.

During the year under review, the recommendations made to me by an Chomhairle Leabharlanna in regard to the future of the county library services have been published. All those concerned with the welfare of these services are, therefore, in a position to see and discuss the recommendations and furnish their views before any decisive action is taken on them. A second series of recommendations will be made to me in due course in regard to the municipal library services.

Subsequent to the enactment of the City and County Management (Amendment) Act, 1955, I gave effect to my promise that when the Act became law I would make the elected members of local authorities fully aware of their powers under the County Management Acts. I had prepared for their guidance a booklet which gives briefly and in simple terms an account of the powers which the Acts confer on the elected representatives and of the methods by which these powers may be exercised. Copies of the booklet were circulated to all elected members.

In the administration of the combined purchasing organisation, we have experienced a notable improvement in the supply position of most commodities in the past year. I was particularly impressed by the marked advances in quality and in volume of output of home manufactured articles. The list of commodities for which contractors are appointed has been further expanded so that local authorities should now be in a position to obtain the bulk of their normal requirements from the official contractors. The number of provincial contractors shows a further increase this year and practically every county in the State is now represented in the official list.

I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

Before I get down to very important aspects of local government and the effect of the Minister's actions on local authorities, I shall deal with the Minister's opening statement. In the second paragraph of the first page of the Minister's speech it is pointed out that there is an increased expenditure of £16,516 in his Department this year as compared with last year. Would the Minister not have told us how much of that or how much more than that is related to increased salaries rather than to increased service to local authorities by way of grant or otherwise?

The Minister points out that there are increases in loan charges, in one case £90,000 and in the other case, £45,000. Would the Minister not have thought fit to tell the House to what extent these increases are due to increased rates of interest, of which the Minister's Department pays its proportions? As it is put to the House in the Minister's statement, one would imagine that these figures were proof of increased loans and, consequently, increased loan charges to the Department.

The Minister gave us quite a long list of figures relating to the building of houses under normal housing schemes of local authorities and under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act. The Minister has avoided a particular subject with which I will deal at greater length later on. We are not concerned simply with a report of past activities. We are concerned about the future position. We are confronted with a situation which, to say the least, is very doubtful.

The Minister made some reference to the north city sewerage scheme. One would imagine that the Minister was responsible for the smooth operation of that scheme and that the possibility of its completion in 1957 was due to him. May I put on record that this sewerage scheme would have been completed many years ago if it had not been held up by the Department?

By the Department.

By what Minister?

It was held up.

Come on. Come clean.

It was held up by the Department. Otherwise, it would have been finished a long time ago. That has not in any way seriously affected the building of houses there. In fact, houses were built and a temporary method of dealing with the effluent was utilised. It was kept in mind that at a certain time connection could be made with the main drainage. I do not know why the Minister has introduced that subject.

As the Minister paid a tribute to Cork Corporation, he might have thought fit to pay a tribute, if not to the Dublin Corporation, at least to its officials for the magnificent job that has been done, and is being done, in connection with the sewerage scheme, a scheme that they themselves designed and which, after examination by several experts, was judged to be a proper scheme.

The Minister says, at page 5 of his statement:—

"It is estimated that the number of new houses erected by private persons and public utility societies in the year 1955-56 was 5,370, and the number of reconstructions by private persons 6,160."

The Minister has not told us what will happen in regard to that type of work in the coming financial year. The Minister has made no reference whatever to the conference which he is to call between building societies, insurance companies and representatives of local authorities with a view to considering whether the building of houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Act can be continued at the rate that has obtained. I thought the Minister would make some announcement on that matter and indicate that some progress has been made.

Would the Deputy be disappointed at the success of my efforts?

The Minister bluffed a great deal a couple of weeks ago. I shall come to that. When a deputation called on the Minister, he made a definite promise that, in order to try to overcome the difficulties that had arisen as a result of the impossibility of securing finances for this type of work, as done hitherto, he would use his influence and his good offices to bring together building societies, insurance companies and the local authority with a view to seeing if some way could be devised whereby the money would be made available from these lending bodies rather than that the corporation should have to raise it. The Minister indicated at the time that he would introduce legislation almost immediately to enable the Government and the local authority to participate in a form of guarantee to these lending authorities where they would give an advance against a house greater than they normally would give in ordinary business transactions.

Does the Deputy wish to sabotage those negotiations too?

The Minister will not get away with the stupid statement that I sabotaged anything. It is alleged that I sabotaged the Dublin Corporation Loan. Did I sabotage the National Loan? Did the Minister for Finance here to-day not indicate that there was a general falling away of capital moneys available for capital development purposes? There was a change in the circumstances.

Not at the time the Deputy was doing it.

I shall deal with that in great detail and I shall show up the Minister in the light in which he deserves to be shown up in this matter. He tries every way to get out of his responsibilities because the Government could not find the moneys. He sabotaged the Corporation Loan. The loans were never fully subscribed.

The Government should not be expected——

For the last six years loans floated by the Dublin Corporation amounted to £26,000,000. Of that £6,000,000 only was subscribed by the public. You sabotaged the previous ones. A lot of bluff.

The Deputy was a member of the corporation at that time.

What has that got to do with the price of eggs?

Or the price of gripe water.

The Parliamentary Secretary's interjection asks if I were a member of the Dublin Corporation. Of course, I am a member for a long time of the Dublin Corporation.

I said the Deputy was a member.

And where was the Parliamentary Secretary?

I remember reading the statements at the time.

What has that to do with it? In 1948 the then Minister for Local Government, the late Deputy Murphy, brought in amending legislation to the House to bring about a speed-up in the housing programme of the City of Dublin.

Hear, hear!

And he said without hesitation, the Taoiseach said, and the Government said that the finding of money was the responsibility of the Government who were to do the job. Is that denied?

The Government said they would make the money available if it could not be found otherwise.

That is not so. The Deputy was not in the House.

No, but I remember the statement.

That is not the statement. These were negotiations between the Minister and representatives of the local authority and if Deputy Larkin were here he would confirm what I am saying. The Minister will not deny it. With the best will in the world, the corporation went along to do the housing. The Minister for Local Government did something else. He appointed a housing director to the Dublin Corporation to be directly responsible to him. There was no suggestion of dallying by any particular group of the Dublin Corporation themselves. That housing director still exists. The finding of the money was the responsibility of the Government.

The cat is out of the bag.

Pre-1948, at the end of the war, when it was possible to begin again with the housing programme, the then Government took the same line and the same attitude so that there is no precedent whatever for what happened last year. The Dublin Corporation have always suggested that it would be far better for the Government to give the money to the corporation out of the local loans fund, as they do to all other local authorities except Cork City, and have always pointed out the stupidity of a local authority competing with the Government in the market for money—two applicants, each putting up the price of money against the other. We have now reached the stage, through this bungling and this lack of appreciation of a situation, where every local authority in Ireland is competing against one another for the securing of the few pounds that they need, putting up the interest rate on one another because there is no money in the Local Loans Fund. That is a stupid business, bungling.

The Deputy's imagination.

I am talking facts.

The professor of economics is at fault.

The Deputy is a glutton for punishment.

The Parliamentary Secretary will not put me off, if it takes me three days to tell him. We have been told by the Taoiseach in the form of a long letter that we may go and borrow up to £3,000,000 from anybody who is prepared to give us money and that, if we cannot get the full amount, the Government will make up the deficit.

Was the Deputy surprised at the letter?

He was flabbergasted.

What happened the speech the Deputy had prepared?

The Deputy should be allowed to make his speech.

Who owns Dublin?

Deputies must allow Deputy Briscoe to make his speech.

I shall deal with an interjection by the Parliamentary Secretary, who apparently needs to be fully informed. We have been told we may borrow. We prepared a list of some 50 names of insurance companies and big businesses and we wrote to all of them to know if they had any money available or were likely to have any available within the coming financial year. We received back one offer of £500,000 from the Insurance Corporation of Ireland at 5½ per cent. and we are awaiting sanction from the Minister to complete that transaction because we have approved of it.

Who approached the company?

The corporation wrote.

At whose request?

Surely we did this. Does the Minister really want to tell the Dáil that he is completely ignorant of the manner in which the corporation has been getting the money for the past ten years?

At my suggestion.

Last year we got £1,000,000 from the Insurance Corporation of Ireland at 5 per cent. without any suggestion except our own. Does the Minister deny that?

All right, all right. He does know that and the corporation would not get it this year were it not for the fact that I suggested it.

We got £1,000,000 last year. All they have to give us this year is £500,000 and we do not know whether they will have any money next year.

The Deputy should know.

Most of the directors of that company are on that side of the House.

The Minister will not be allowed to take credit for things for which he has no responsibility. It has been the practice of the corporation on the eve of each loan to write to these institutions to see if they have money available. In every year we got money from the Royal Liver Society, from the New Ireland Assurance Company and from the Insurance Corporation of Ireland and borrowed publicly the balance. The Minister asks who got us the £500,000 this year? Who got us the millions in previous years?

I got it this year.

Who got us £3,000,000? That is what the promise was.

I have already given it to you.

The Minister has not given us £3,000,000.

The Deputy is out of touch. The Deputy's speech has gone askew.

When the Minister was answering a parliamentary question I put down he thought he would get away with it.

And the Deputy got a little heated.

I knew that on the Minister's Estimate I would get my chance to deal with it.

And a magnificent spokesman, the Deputy is for the Opposition.

I am speaking as I know these things to be. I know what has happened. The Minister has not said anything about the proposed legislation—how far he has got on that. It was promised to us within a matter of two months at most from the time we complained to him as a deputation.

Legislation on what?

To enable us jointly with the Government to give guarantees to the lending bodies for the difference between what they normally advance and what they have to give. The Minister has responsibility to-day for his policy for the coming year and part of his policy should be to see that the building of small dwelling loan houses will not cease. Is that admitted? In connection with that, the only instrument that he is able to prepare, to help it continue even in a reduced form, is to bring in legislation to enable the local authorities to join with the Government in giving guarantees to these lending bodies where they lend money to applicants in excess of the percentage they usually give.

Would I disappoint the Deputy by telling him there is no necessity for legislation? They will do it without legislation.

What does that mean?

They will do it, pending legislation.

The Minister means that he has now given authority for this to be done and there will be retrospective legislation brought in?

I said no such thing.

He said they could do it, pending legislation.

But I am asking when the legislation is coming in?

I will tell the Deputy when I am ready.

But the Minister did promise it within two months from a certain date——

When was that?

When we called to him in February at Government Buildings on a deputation.

And the Deputy tried to sabotage the entire negotiations.

Now, Sir——

Now, Sir, there is no doubt whatever about it.

I was the only member of that group of my Party at that conference. The Lord Mayor was there; Alderman Jack Belton was there—a member of the Minister's own Party——

I accused only one of sabotage.

I must be a most important and a very diabolical person.

You must be the spokesman for the Opposition.

There was the Minister with a secretary and an assistant secretary, with the Minister for Finance, the secretary of the Department of Finance and the assistant secretary and I with my little hammer was able to knock down that great edifice——

With a little bit of compass and set square as well.

I did this all by myself —did anybody ever hear such nonsense? If the Minister persists in that line of talk, I will go home to-night with a head so big that I will not be able to put it on the pillow.

It was not the Irish Press this time.

This is the most extraordinary nonsense.

It seems that way to us, now.

It is the most astounding nonsense. I am asking the Minister, if he has not said it already, will he make a note of what he proposes to do? A conference was to be called. The Minister says we are making great progress, but I was in the process of pointing out that we had contacted about 50 institutions and so far we have received an offer, which we have accepted, of an advance of £500,000 for the coming 12 months at 5½ per cent. which is awaiting the sanction of the Minister. We also received another offer of £250,000, but at 6 per cent., and that was the only other offer we got. For fear I might sabotage the first offer at 5½ per cent., we decided to accept it at 5½ per cent., but not to pay 6 per cent. because the other people might have withdrawn and said: "If you are paying So-and-So 6 per cent., you will have to pay us 6 per cent." So we took the offer at 5½ per cent. In the case of the other offer, we are now negotiating to see if we can get it at less than 6 per cent.

What I want to emphasise is that the £250,000 will soon be gone, as far as we are concerned. The Limerick Corporation applied for a loan of £49,000 from the Local Loans Fund at 5¼ per cent., the established rate, but they did not get a "bob". So they went to this institution and they got their £49,000 at 5½ per cent. That means there is a little less in the kitty now for us. The Dún Laoghaire Corporation have been expecting week after week to get £200,000 for small dwellings loans to which they are committed——

And they got it too, what is more.

When did they get it?

Let the Deputy know what he is talking about first.

Is the Minister not aware that there is a big difference between sanction to get money and getting it? They got sanction to borrow it, wherever they could get it— is that not what the Minister means?

And that disappoints the Deputy.

I said they were expecting £200,000 from the Local Loans Fund——

And they will get it from the Local Loans Fund.

You said a minute ago that they got it.

They asked my permission to borrow. Is the Deputy getting a little bit hot under the collar now?

It is the Minister who is getting hot. I am not getting hot at all, but the Minister is switching from one thing to another. First, he says they got it and then he says they got permission to borrow——

Yes, from the Local Loans Fund.

There was a statement in the paper this morning——

Which paper?

The Irish Press.

Dear, oh, dear!

Does the Minister say they will get it from the Local Loans Fund?

They will get it.

They have not got it yet.

They will get it, if they want it.

The Minister said they had got it and that is on the records of this House.

How often has the Deputy switched since he started?

I am not switching at all, but the Minister is swinging as hard as possible from one side to the other.

[Interruptions.]

The House should allow Deputy Briscoe to make his speech. Other Deputies will get every opportunity.

I was speaking about a point which was confirmed to-day by the Minister for Finance when he said that the capital available now was becoming seriously circumscribed. He himself has had to cut down on his estimate of capital requirements for the coming year, because of the difficulty of getting capital. We have the situation now where every local authority in Ireland is in competition with every other local authority to get the few pounds from whomsoever may have them.

And you voted against increased taxation to get more money, to get the few extra pounds.

Is that what it was all for?

A certain amount.

I do not know that the increased taxation is for the purpose of making capital moneys available. I understood from the Minister's speech that it was in order to make up the deficit between revenue and expenditure.

Yes; that is right.

Then, how does it mean more money for capital purposes?

We want to invite money into the country for capital development.

From where?

Any place. We are inviting technical advice and money for investment here.

The tax on petrol invites money?

The tax on petrol— the Deputy was not listening to the speech.

(Interruptions).

Will Deputies allow Deputy Briscoe to speak?

Deputy Corry is right. This is just something that is pure politics. However, Deputy Briscoe is worth hearing sometimes.

I think I am worth hearing at all times, although the Minister may not agree with me. I am trying to show the Dáil the position that is being created by this muddle that has developed since last May.

In Dublin Corporation?

In the whole of the State finances and in every area within the Twenty-Six Counties.

Except Cork.

Cork is in the jam, too. They went to their banks a couple of weeks ago looking for an ovedraft and they were turned down.

They will now apply to the Local Loans Fund.

The Minister seems to forget that the last loans raised by both the Dublin and Cork Corporations were for the purpose of paying off the bulk of the money already spent——

The vast bulk. How much of the Dublin Corporation loan was spent——

If you got your way, the most of it would be spent on Rathmines baths, which would completely sabotage the entire loan.

We made no application to the Minister for any money for Rathmines baths. The money we applied for in the loan was exclusively for housing.

And you never even said it once.

Of course we did. I do not know what the Minister means by that. We are supposed to have some regard for what is factual and correct here——

I think the Deputy has talked so much that he does not know now what is fact.

The Parliamentary Secretary has been in this House for the past two years with the title and description of financial adviser to the Government, and he has kept his knowledge so secret from the Dáil that we have not once heard him make the slightest suggestion——

We are not discussing the Parliamentary Secretary.

He cannot find paper for Oliver's printing press.

The Parliamentary Secretary has interrupted me and I think, Sir, he is at least entitled to the courtesy of an answer.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 9th May, 1956.
Barr
Roinn