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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Jun 1956

Vol. 158 No. 3

Finance Bill, 1956—Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Lemass

I have only one brief comment to make on this section. I gather from a reply which the Minister gave me yesterday to a Dáil question that he anticipates that the bulk of the tax chargeable under this section will fall upon fuel used by manufacturing industry. There does not appear to be much sense in granting initial allowances on plant and machinery to induce industry to expand its operations while at the same time imposing an extra £500,000 on their costs through this tax. It is true that other fuels are also increasing in price and that that has induced a number of manufacturing firms to change over to fuel oil in anticipation of saving a substantial amount of their costs. The effect of the increased duty is to eliminate that saving.

I have personal knowledge of a number of concerns which had hoped to reduce their costs considerably by changing to fuel oil and where the whole of that saving has been eliminated by this tax. There may be some consequential advantages from that point of view but, in our circumstances at the present time, it should be the desire of the Government to keep manufacturing costs at their lowest, both from the viewpoint of preventing further increases in the internal price level and for the purpose of encouraging manufacturing firms to seek export markets. Whatever justification there may be for imposing additional taxes at the present time, it would seem to be thoroughly bad policy to impose them upon the raw materials of manufacturing industry.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.
Question proposed: "That Section 12 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Lemass

No. It is not agreed. We may not divide on it but we want to be recorded as opposed to it.

Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 13.
Question proposed: "That Section 13 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Lemass

The Minister gave an estimate of the yield from this increased tax on bets at £150,000. I am curious about that estimate. The Finance Accounts show that receipts from the betting tax in the last year for which I have seen the figures were close upon £700,000—£680,000, if I am correct. A 33? per cent. increase in the tax, therefore, should bring in or around £220,000 or £225,000.

The figure I gave was for the part of the year only.

Mr. Lemass

And the anticipation is that the yield next year will increase to in or around £2,250,000?

I have not got the full year's figure in front of me. The figure of £150,000 is from the date on which it comes into operation this year.

There are two points with which I should like the Minister to deal under Section 13. In the first place, I should like to point out to the Minister that at the present time there are certain monopolies of bookmakers setting up offices in different small towns throughout the State. I draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that, in order to attract new business, and to have an advantage over their rivals, they are offering a tax concession. This present section is not operative until the 1st July. At the present time, some of these monopolies, instead of charging 7½ per cent., are offering the punter only 5 per cent. if he bets with them. I would refer the Minister to Section 24 of the Finance Act of 1926 which says:—

"There shall be charged, levied, and paid on and by every bookmaker who makes, lays, or otherwise enters into any bets——"

I submit to the Minister that there is a statutory obligation on the bookmaker under that section to take the full levy of 7½ per cent. from the person who places a bet. I think this matter is so important that every Deputy in this House must be concerned with it. There are bookmakers in this country who, for quite a considerable number of years, have been carrying on with one or two offices in these small towns, and now they are faced with these gentlemen coming along and starting 30 to 40 offices. Apparently the object is to get between 150 and 200 offices in this State. I think the Minister should move, and move swiftly, in this matter. There is no doubt that they are flaunting the law, and in addition to flaunting the law, they are publishing in the local and national Press the fact that they are giving this concession.

There is another point on which I am not quite clear. The Act of 1926 and the Act of 1941 clearly state that the tax should be paid by the bookmaker. Perhaps an arrangement has been made between the bookmakers and the punters, but it must be only an arrangement, because neither in the Act of 1926, nor in the Act of 1931, nor in the Act of 1941 is there any mention of any change except in the rate of the tax. Section 24 of the Act of 1926 has not been changed in any way and this Act does not change it except to increase the amount of the levy to 10 per cent. Sub-section (2) of Section 24 states:—

"For the purpose of this section the amount of a bet shall be the sum of money which by the terms of the bet the bookmaker will be entitled to receive, retain, or take credit for if the event the subject of the bet is determined in his favour."

In other words, if I go into a bookmaker's office and have £1 on a horse and the horse loses, the bookmaker pays 10 per cent. on that £1. Suppose the horse wins at five to one, then I am to get back £6. The bookmaker, under the present system, pays me £6 less 10 per cent. I would point out to the Minister that there should be some clarification of this matter. I maintain that, under Section 24, all the bookmaker is entitled to retain is the tax on the original stake, win, lose or draw. If I have £1 on a horse and I lose the bookmaker pays the State but if I win at five to one the bookmaker, on behalf of the State, collects the full total from my winnings.

The yield from this tax will evidently be very close to £250,000 and the public should realise that, in the long run, it is the ordinary man in the street who is paying this out of his own pocket. In actual fact, this tax is not costing the bookmaker anything.

The Act is quite clear. The Act makes the bookmaker liable for the payment of the percentage on the bet and what arrangement the bookmaker makes between himself and his clients is a matter entirely for himself. Whether one bookmaker makes one set of arrangements and another bookmaker makes a different set is a matter of the ordinary contract between them. The bookmaker is bound to pay the State and the bookmaker collects money from the punter. I hope that the Deputy pays substantial sums on this because it is when he wins that he will pay the tax.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 14 put and declared carried.
SECTION 15.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment No. 6:—

To add to the section the following new sub-section:—

( ) Entertainment duty will be not charged on payments for admission to any ball or dance where the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that the whole of the net proceeds of such ball or dance are to be devoted to a charitable purpose.

The Minister has indicated that the intention is that this dance tax will not apply to dances run for charitable or educational purposes. When the tax was in operation before there was a similar relief but, by regulation, the Revenue Commissioners provided that that relief would become operative only when 50 per cent. of the receipts of the dance was paid to the charity or educational purpose for which it was run. It seems to me that by that regulation the Revenue Commissioners have gone a long way to negative the intention of the legislation. Assuming that a similar regulation will apply in the future it means that a number of dances run for charitable purposes will be subject to the tax.

I have had representations on this matter from a number of organisations which are regularly engaged in running these functions for the purposes of raising funds for building churches, schools and other purposes. They have intimated that they anticipate considerable difficulty arising out of that regulation. They have indicated that with the complete exemption granted for dances outside a certain mileage limit from the town they will have difficulty in attracting people to their functions if they have to restrict their outlay to 50 per cent. of the receipts. They indicated that that may mean they will have to hire cheaper and, consequently, less popular bands and otherwise curtail their expenditure in the circumstances which they foresee, otherwise they will become liable to the tax.

I can see no reason why if the intention is to exempt dances run for charitable purposes that the 50 per cent. limitation should be maintained if the Revenue Commissioners are satisfied with the bona fides of the operation, if it is quite clear from the characters of the promoters of the undertaking and the persons associated with it that the whole of the net proceeds, whatever they are, are going to the charity for which it is run. It seems to me the exemption should apply and that is the purpose of the amendment. It may not involve an amendment of the Bill. It could be done by an amendment of the regulations and a variation of the percentage might meet my point.

I strongly urge that this limitation is far too restrictive and in quite a number of cases people will find themselves liable to pay tax on the receipts of dances for charitable purposes and they may be deterred from undertaking the organisation of these functions in the knowledge that they could not keep within the limit.

The Deputy is entirely wrong when he says this is a matter of regulation. It is a matter of statute. The section of the Finance Act, 1943, lays down the position in respect of the manner in which there is exemption in so far as the proceeds go to educational, philanthropic or charitable purposes, subject to the overriding limit of the percentage on expenses. It is not a section that applies only to dances. It is a general entertainments duty provision. It was in 1950 that there was an increase to 50 per cent. in the basic arrangements in the 1943 Act. The concession started many years before that.

If the Deputy's amendment were accepted it would mean that anybody could run a function on a commercial basis for himself and take all the profit except the residual pound. The possibilities of fraud would be absolutely limitless. The Deputy will perhaps remember that that was one of the methods that was adopted in relation to pools for which legislation was necessary during the past year. Exactly the same thing could be done if the Deputy's amendment were accepted. I am afraid I could not accept it. The Deputy in making the case for the amendment suggested a variation of the percentage. I am prepared to watch the course of events as they work out during the year and if I find that there is a hardship over the course of the year I certainly will look into the matter again next year. Candidly, I doubt whether there will be the difficulties the Deputy suggests. However, if we find during the course of the year that these difficulties emerge to any substantial degree I will look into the matter.

Mr. Lemass

Would the Minister go the other way around, make it 60 per cent. now and then review it next year?

I do not like, unless I see a very strong case in practice, to differentiate between dances and other forms of entertainment. It is not merely a dance provision. It is a general entertainments provision and I would like, therefore, to see some real evidence from the point of view of its working out the way the Deputy suggests. If it was only dances I would not bother, but it covers entertainments as a whole and I would rather leave it that way.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

I should like if the Minister would clarify the position obtaining in regard to travelling entertainment companies who pay entertainment tax. Some of these companies may run dances in marquees in conjunction with a carnival. Some of them run dances in conjunction with a circus and so forth. Some of these companies are composed mainly of Irish nationals. There is a number of travelling entertainment companies in this country which are owned and controlled by Irish nationals. When the entertainment season is over they remain in this country and spend their profits here.

Under existing law, they are operating in competition with foreign-owned and controlled companies of the same kind. The competition is unfair in this way. Some of the local entertainment companies, let them be carnival companies or circuses, run dances in marquees. They have to import vehicles for which they must pay the full import duties. They must pay the full road tax on these vehicles and they must also pay the full entertainments tax on amusement.

On the other hand, a similar company may come into this country from outside, pay no road tax here, no import duty on their vehicles and practically no entertainment tax except the tax on dancing, thereby raising the possibility of running the Irish owned and controlled firms out of business. If an Irish company wanted to go outside the country or go into Northern Ireland they have to pay a very severe import duty. They have to pay a severe tax on their vehicles. They are actually prohibited by taxes from operating in England, whereas English companies can come in here, pay no import duty on their vehicles, pay no road tax and they operate against the Irish companies. They take all the profits back to England and spend them outside the country. I would ask the Minister to consider this question. Our Irish firms particularly circuses are operating under unfair conditions in relation to these people. There is a large number of these circuses coming into the country now.

The section does not deal with a circus at all.

It deals with entertainment tax.

Dance tax.

Entertainment tax.

On dances.

Most of these companies run dances in conjunction with their entertainment. The Irish firms are operating on an unfair basis against outside people.

We never have received any complaints in relation to the matters raised by Deputy Lahiffe.

I have a reply from the office of the Revenue Commissioners and I will hand it to the Minister.

I am sorry, then. My information does not seem to be accurate. Did the Deputy receive this reply recently?

The 15th of last month.

Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 16.

Mr. Lemass

I move amendment No. 7:—

In sub-section (2), page 9, line 34, before "of" where it secondly occurs, to insert "or mainly".

It seems to me that the purpose of the section might be defeated by the rather restrictive wording of sub-section (2). We agree it is desirable to exempt from entertainment duties film shows in the Irish language. However, to require that the whole of the performance shall consist of films in the Irish language might operate to prevent exemption being secured in cases where the greater part of the show would consist of such films and some part of it of films of another type. If the purpose is to encourage the production and display of films in Irish, it would seem reasonable to grant such exemption if the greater part of the show consists of films in the Irish language. I will not press the point but I think that the purpose of the section is somewhat defeated.

There is already in operation a provision by virtue of which if not less than one-third of the performance consists of an entertainment film with an Irish language sound track then only half the duty is paid. The section as it appears in the Bill is included to meet certain specific representations that have been made. The case has been made that they would be wholly Irish films and, on that account, they are quite happy, I understand, with the section.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section put and agreed to.
Sections 17, 18 and 19 put and agreed to.
SECTION 20.
Question proposed: "That Section 20 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Lemass

This is a section which confirms the duties which were imposed by Order in March last, when the Minister announced the imposition of these duties by Order and the other measures taken by the Government at that time to rectify to some extent the position regarding the balance of payments. I expressed the view that the measures were inadequate and ineffective and, in respect of some of them at any rate, likely to be objectionable in their results.

I am not disputing that the trade situation is such that measures to deal with it are necessary and that these measures must, temporarily at least, include some restrictions upon unnecessary imports. The Government, however, decided to restrict imports by making them dearer through the process of the imposition of these special levies. I think they could have got the same result in a way which would have been more effective and less onerous so far as the consuming public are concerned.

I have already expressed the view that, in so far as motor car aggregates are concerned, the position could have been dealt with by regulating the total imports so as to bring about a reduction. If there are any difficulties under trade agreements or otherwise in doing that by Government Order, it could be done by voluntary arrangement with the importing firms. I think they would gladly have co-operated with the Government in that regard. The effect of acting in that way rather than by the imposition of special duties on the trade would have been beneficial. The difficulties which have arisen in the motor trade are inevitable where special duties have been imposed— duties announced by the Government to be temporary, duties liable to be removed at any time if the situation justifies it, duties causing an increase in price which may not be permanent. In such circumstances, people are disposed to postpone making purchases. The prospect that the tax may be withdrawn or modified and that prices may come down in consequence will operate to discourage trade until the position is clarified. If, on the other hand, the situation had been dealt with by reducing the volume of imports without any special levy increasing the price of the product the effect on the public would have been completely different, and, so far as it was possible within the reduced volume of imports, trade would have been maintained.

A similar observation could be made regarding the imposition on newsprint. The situation that arose during the war was dealt with by imposing restrictions upon the size of newspapers. Whether or not an Order to that effect would have been necessary, I cannot say. Probably the newspapers also would have co-operated with the Government in bringing about a voluntary reduction in their imports for a time in view of the trade situation, if they had been asked. We think the Government were wrong in their approach to this matter by endeavouring to restrict consumption of these goods by increasing the price. The curtailment of imports could have been achieved in other ways.

I want to refer specifically to the duty which was imposed on newspapers, concerning which a number of statements have been made. The tax upon newspapers is expressed not to apply to certain classes of newspapers including papers which are regarded as religious or educational publications. Irish religious newspapers have contended that there is unfair discrimination against themselves in these provisions. Such papers published here have to bear this new impost upon their raw material—upon the newsprint which they use—whereas similar papers published in Britain are exempted both from that tax and from the periodical tax. As the Irish Catholic pointed out in an article, the Government's action could not have come, from their point of view, at a more inopportune time because the newspaper industry is at present experiencing a whole series of increases in their costs including increases in wages, increases of the cost of newsprint apart altogether from the levy, the cost of carriage and other essential expenditures. It would appear that inadequate consideration was given to the effect of the changes upon publications of that kind. Another effect of the changes has been to penalise certain newspapers printed in the Six Counties. As it turns out, the effect is to penalise mainly those newspapers which are nationalist in their viewpoint. The majority of the non-nationalist papers in the Six Counties have limited circulations here and are consequently exempt from tax under the provision which exempts papers, the daily circulation of which is less than 1,000 copies.

The Derry Journal had a leading article last week on this issue in the course of which they said that the levy is being maintained, in spite of the fact that it was imposed by accident. The leading article contains the following sentence:—

"Government representatives have admitted that Northern newspapers such as the Journal were unintentionally caught in the net cast in the path of foreign publications.”

If that is correct and if Government representatives——

Not to my knowledge; it is not correct, so far as I am aware.

Mr. Lemass

The term "Government representatives" is a very wide one.

It was I who saw the deputation.

Mr. Lemass

But it is clear anyway that a mistake was made and it seems to be one that could be rectified and should be rectified by the Minister. The Dáil, I think, should not be asked to confirm these duties in the form in which they were originally imposed. The Government has now had three months' experience of their operation and must have had many representations regarding their effect. It would be clearly desirable that these representations should be considered and that whatever changes are justified should be made, and one of the changes justified would appear to be exemption of the Six County newspapers from the tax.

Apart altogether from the unfair incidence of the tax, it is, on the face of it, undesirable that the contacts between the two parts of this country should be further curtailed by impositions of this kind. I do not know if the Minister has any intention of revising those duties or making any changes, but, if there is no such intention, I think the Dáil should not give them confirmation.

As the Deputy is aware, and as the House is aware, these duties were imposed for the specific purpose of assisting in remedying the balance of payments situation. I have made it clear beyond question that the duties must be retained, so long as our present balance of payments situation remains. I do not understand the Deputy's references again to-day to the levy's effect on motor cars because I have seen firms advertising that they have pre-levy cars available for sale.

Mr. Lemass

There is only one left.

In those circumstances, it would seem quite clear that it could not be the additional cost imposed by the levy that affected the firms concerned. I think myself it is far more likely that the virtual collapse of the second-hand export market in cars caused this effect. In any event, when the Tánaiste and I saw a deputation from the union concerned, we made it quite clear to them, and also made it clear by public pronouncement afterwards, that so long as the balance of payments difficulty remains, the levy must also remain.

So far as the newspapers to which the Deputy referred are concerned, I am aware that the paper which he mentioned has itself been bearing the cost of the levy. I do not understand —and I said so, when they came to see me—why they find it necessary to do that. They could quite easily, and I think without any injury to themselves, have passed on the additional cost. The Deputy will appreciate that while we must all resent, as we do, the unnatural division of our country, we must accept for customs purposes that the Border is there and it has always been so accepted in all the duty regulations, all the duty Orders and duty Acts. If we are to make a difference in this respect, surely the Deputy can see that the next thing we would be asked to do would be to make similar exemptions in respect of, say, shirts that could be manufactured in the Six Counties and brought in here in competition with, say, shirts manufactured in Donegal. The tendency then seemingly would be for British firms manufacturing articles in Britain and exporting them here to transfer part of their manufacturing industry to the Six Counties rather than here. I think it would be impossible, no matter how much we may and as I say, do, regret the partition of Ireland, to breach the customs code in the way the Deputy suggested. We could have dealt——

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

As far as the general point made by Deputy Lemass is concerned, we certainly could have dealt with this by means of physical restriction of imports, but I think this way is preferable, because physical restriction of imports, unless accompanied by all the paraphernalia and administrative costs of rationing, inevitably creates a black market. The Deputy may disagree with me, but I think he will find that all the experience everywhere is, as I say, that inevitably, if there is going to be a demand for a certain article in excess of the supply of that article, then there will be competition for it and it will have the effect of putting the article under the counter and a black market inevitably follows. There could not be an effective physical restriction on the pre-March consumption demand figures that would not mean subsequently there would be a greater demand than the number of articles permitted to be imported would meet. Inevitably, in respect of the range of goods mentioned, the result would be that those articles would go under the counter and a black market would be established in them. I think the House would agree with me at once that it would be absurd to introduce a rationing system for the range of goods included in these Orders. The administrative costs would be enormous, the difficulties of determining rations for non-essential or less essential articles would be quite immense.

The whole effect of the restriction of physical imports would therefore have been to create a situation that would be far less preferable to that created by the duties. The duties have acted as a deterrent on the people themselves so that they would operate their own rationing system. The restriction of physical imports, if the Deputy wishes so to describe it, is a much greater deterrent, but, in relation to the wide range of articles we have here, it is a step that should be taken only if it is clear that the alternative method adopted has failed. I do not think it has failed. I think it has had the results we anticipated to date. I cannot see any possible method, over the general range of articles covered in these Orders, through which it would have been possible to introduce physical control without having the immediate result of goods going under the counter and a black market in them operating immediately afterwards.

Is the Minister not aware that these restrictions have caused considerable unemployment in the motor assembling industry and that the largest of these firms in the country—Fords, of Cork—have now only about 280 men employed? Is the Minister aware that, since these restrictions came into force, men who have not been unemployed during the past 11 years have been thrown out of employment?

I feel I will be forgiven if I express some doubts as to the real purpose for which these levies were imposed. I base that view on the fact that the levy which has been imposed in respect of newsprint has increased considerably the cost of pro-production of newspapers in this country. It was only very recently that it was found necessary to increase the price of the daily newspapers, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce instituted an inquiry into the increased price. That was probably quite right because certain doubts were expressed on the matter, even in this House. I heard charges being made against the newspapers that were forced to increase their prices.

As a result of the inquiry instituted by the Prices Advisory Body, it was found the increases were necessary in order that the papers should carry on. As a result of the new levy, the costs of production of the newspapers have increased almost out of bounds. That applies not only to the cost of newsprint itself which was already abnormally high, but, in addition, there has been the enforcement of the extra charge in respect of telephonic communication, plus the extra cost of the transport of papers throughout the country through the additional tax on petrol. This levy on newsprint has made the task of producing newspapers almost impossible.

The Minister appealed to the newspapers to give their aid and I think, to some extent, they have met that request. However, instead of putting on this levy, surely the Minister could have, by Order or by some other means, compelled the newspapers to produce only standard sized issues. He could have directed that they should produce only 12, 16, or 20 page papers. At present, some newspapers produce 20 page issues, while others have only 12 pages and so on. Some uniformity could have been secured through an Order of the Minister for Industry and Commerce or of the Minister for Finance himself. The point I want to make is that, in addition to the increased costs imposed by this levy, there are increasing demands by the various trade unions. The possibility is that as a result the newspapers will be crippled completely so that, instead of securing what the Minister is looking for, the levies probably will have the reverse effect.

The papers to which the Deputy refers could, of course, deal with the matter by shrinking their size voluntarily and so enable the existing stocks of newsprint to be carried over for a further period. In that way, they would not feel the impact to the same extent as they would if they kept up the production of larger sized newspapers, when they would have to renew their stocks at an earlier date. I differ from the Deputy in this matter. I think it is preferable to avoid the type of physical control the Deputy suggests, if control with similar effects can be achieved in a different way. I think it is better to give complete freedom in matters of this kind.

I disagree with Deputy McGrath when he says the levy has caused the results to which he refers. If he looks at the statistics on the export of second-hand cars for the first few months of this year, and compares them with the figures for the first few months of last year, he will find there has been a very substantial drop indeed in these exports. I gave the figures here on a previous occasion. I think the figure for the first few months of this year was only about 20 per cent. of that for the same period last year. With the collapse of that export market, it is natural there would be a lessening in demand for new cars. I think those engaged in the industry themselves appreciate that it is the collapse of that second-hand car market that is responsible.

The people in Cork do not believe that.

I met a deputation from the union concerned and they appreciate that the collapse of the second-hand car market has had a tremendous effect. The situation that has arisen in the balance of payments is one that must override our anxieties in other respects. If we do not surmount those problems, then the result on our national economy in the long run will be disastrous. If it were not for that consideration, no one of us would wish to impose these restrictions. We all hope the matter can be rectified without any grave hardship being imposed. The best way of rectification is for people to achieve a target of savings which would have the result of our being able to have greater production and which would enable us, accordingly, to expand the national output.

Mr. Lemass

I think the Minister is completely mistaken in his approach to this matter. If this special levy in regard to motor cars is not removed now, it will never be removed. There is not a Deputy who can foresee the day in which there will be a Government in office with a sufficient margin of revenue to remove that special levy in preference to reducing some other tax. The probability is that the remission of any tax will not be possible at all for some years to come, but, if it ever does become possible, this is not the tax which will be selected for repeal.

While I believe that to be so, the people do not believe it to be so. There is a difference between a motor car and a bottle of stout or a suit of clothes. Even a person who requires a motor car for the conduct of his profession or business can postpone making a purchase for at least a year and if the public believe this tax is a temporary tax, as it was described by the Minister, and is liable to come off again without notice, as the Minister said, it is quite an easy matter for them to postpone making the purchase of a new car for 12 months. During those 12 months, a very considerable amount of difficulty and hardship can develop for those who are employed in that trade.

It is true that those who are in the trade anticipated a falling off in the sales this year, but not to the extent that has occurred. Indeed, it is necessary to think ahead in this matter, because all the firms engaged in that trade have built up a team of skilled workers which is being rapidly reduced. These workers are not staying in the country and they may not be available again if the trade expands. It would be far wiser for the Minister to have set a target for himself representing a reduction in car imports which he desired to achieve this year for balance of payments purposes, and to have asked the traders concerned to work to that target. They would have done so and I do not believe the situation which would develop would have produced anything like black market prices for cars. The trade is far too competitive for that and indeed it is quite obvious that the competition for business which is available now is forcing some of the weaker firms into a course of action which can imperil their future. If the Minister wants to rely upon the fact that some makes of cars are not yet increased in price to cover the levy charged, then the implication is that the situation will get worse, that when the full impact of the levy is put upon all prices, there will be another deterioration in the volume of sales and consequently in employment.

The same applies in regard to newsprint. I do not know if the Minister's officers thought fit to discuss their ideas with those who are directly concerned in any trade before putting them into effect, or even if they have discussed them since. So far as newsprint is concerned, the position is that there is not sufficient world production to meet the world demand. The world demand for newsprint, because of the growth of literacy in the countries of Asia and elsewhere, is expanding far more rapidly than the production of newsprint is expanding, or is likely to expand, so that newsprint prices are mounting. On top of this rapidly mounting price, the Minister has imposed this levy which is a very considerable additional charge on the cost of newspapers. Newspapers cannot increase their price to recover that increased cost as freely as is suggested because there must be a point at which an increase in price will mean a very substantial curtailment in their sales.

The problem of curtailing imports for the purpose of rectifying the balance of payments situation was precisely the same as that which we found during the war, when we could not get enough newsprint and had to regularise its utilisation within the country. The device adopted then and accepted by all newspapers was the imposition by ministerial Order of limits on the size of newspapers. That, I am quite sure, would have been accepted as a temporary device by all the principal newspapers in the country at the present time. It would have rectified the balance of payments situation far more definitely and would have involved none of these cost problems for their producers.

With reference to the Six-County newspapers, I see no objection in principle to exempting from the tax upon newspapers, newspapers published in the Six Counties. I am not going to be led into an argument as to whether that principle might not be extended further. This is hardly the occasion to debate that but in the case of these newspapers there are obviously special considerations. Apart, as I said, from the desire to maintain links of that kind with the Six-County area, there are special problems which we need not ignore. Circulation limits in effect mean that the Unionist newspapers printed there are not subject to restriction at all. The restriction applies in practice only to the Nationalist newspapers. The local papers produced in Derry and which circulate in Donegal are also in a special category. The Minister cannot be unaware of the fact that there is a belief there that political considerations enter into this, because their main competitor in Donegal is the Fine Gael organ which people would not read, unless they were forced to read it. There is the idea that this tax is imposed on the Derry papers in order to force them to read that Fine Gael paper.

Is it paying dividends?

Mr. Lemass

Surely these Derry papers must be recognised as being in a very special situation? They were produced in Derry for many years. Some of them are very old newspapers and the bulk of their sales is in these border counties, particularly in Donegal. It is unfair to them to say: "You will pay a tax of ¾d. a copy on every paper you sell and you must recover that by increasing your price," when the local paper in Donegal, which is its competitor, is not so compelled to increase the price. I think the argument the Minister advanced does not hold water at all and there certainly can be no objection in principle to exempting papers printed in Ireland from the scope of the duty.

The Minister did not refer to the problems of Irish Catholic papers. There are possibly other religious periodicals and newspapers in the same category, which are in competition with British papers which have been completely exempted. So far as they are concerned, they are doubly hit by this special levy when their competitors are not hit at all. This is a matter which could be rectified by the Minister, if he wants to rectify it.

I cannot accept the argument in regard to competition. I do not think there is that type of competition in those sales at all.

While we can all sympathise with the Minister in his efforts to combat the effects of McGilliganism in Finance, I think he should keep a little bit of elasticity and not act in a panic-stricken fashion. There is no doubt that Deputy Lemass has made an unanswerable case in respect of the Six-County newspapers. It does not matter a row of beans to the financial situation whether a few newspapers coming in from the Six Counties are subject to the levy or not.

I think the Minister should keep the situation sufficiently elastic to deal with small problems of that kind, problems which may cause a good deal of damage, inconvenience and ill-will. Remember, it is not the Minister alone who will be blamed for these taxes. The whole Dáil will be blamed. I appeal to the Minister to give heed to what Deputy Lemass has said and make the change. It will not matter to him. In all sorts of Finance Acts, when levies or duties or taxes are being imposed, small exemptions are made for practical reasons or for reasons of general national interest. The Minister has already made an exemption in these levies in relation to newspapers; he will not impose it on papers with a circulation of under 1,000 copies per week. Why not apply that to the Six-County newspapers as well? Such an exemption will not matter much in the long run. Indeed, we shall have to do very much more than that if the situation is to be changed.

If this country is to make progress and if we are to get rid of all these special levies, we will have to ensure that there will be no necessity for them. Our balance of payments problem will have to be cured in a much more fundamental way if we intend to increase our national productivity and give our people the standard of living they want, provided they are prepared to earn it and to produce it. The necessity for all these special levies, irksome though they are and grave as are the difficulties they have created, could have been avoided if the Government had had a better approach to the problem of getting production up on the land, not to talk of production from the factories.

The Government gave the Minister for Agriculture his head and he got his way in having a crack at wheat. But, if our wheat production goes down to nil, we will have to get £18,000,000 worth of dollars per year to buy wheat. I do not know how we will do that. Already, this year, it looks as if our cattle exports will yield us something in the order of £10,000,000 less than they did last year.

The Deputy is extending the debate very considerably.

This is the section of the Bill which imposes levies on hundreds and thousands of articles in daily use. The Chair has heard the Minister say these levies will have to be kept on, no matter at what inconvenience to the people, until the balance of payments situation is rectified. I made one simple statement which cannot be controverted. I said that all the money the Minister will collect from all these duties will be very small. If we cut out all or as much of the imports of these commodities as the Minister aims to cut out, that will go a very short distance towards correcting our balance of payments problem, unless, at the same time, we are prepared to support native producers to produce what the average people require, both from the farm and the factory.

The Minister, in his various speeches here in recent months, has seemed to get some inklings of the fundamentals of this situation. He says now that our people cannot live at the standard at which they wish to live, unless they are prepared to earn that standard by their work and by their production. His illustrious predecessor, Deputy McGilligan, tried to make the people believe that all they had to do was wish for a standard of living and it would be delivered to them on a plate. When we tried to warn them, he told us we were dunderheads. I would like to know where is the wizard, Deputy McGilligan? He came in here to vote twice last night, so he is fit to walk; I have often known him fit to talk, irrespective of whether he was sitting down or walking.

Faith, the Deputy did.

He came in here twice yesterday to vote, and I want to see that wizard coming in here now and telling us where to get the £20,000,000 he said he could get in order to avoid putting on these levies, which will produce a mere couple of hundred thousand a month. He said he could get £20,000,000, about £1,500,000 a month. He was prepared to find that if the people elected Fine Gael. All they had to do was elect Fine Gael and Fine Gael would produce a Minister for Finance who had the knowledge and the determination to reduce the cost of Government by £20,000,000 per year.

I should like the Minister for Finance to send for Deputy McGilligan now to tell us how to produce this £20,000,000 that he told the people he could produce, that he promised he would produce, on behalf of Fine Gael, and thereby save the imposition of these special levies, levies which will drive up the cost of living, which have, indeed, already driven it up, on the people to whom Deputy McGilligan promised better times, lower taxes and lower prices. When Deputy McGilligan was embarking on his programme of spending money like water in every direction so that he could, by the mere throwing out of a large volume of money, get back into the till something additional on his beer and other taxes, he was warned time and again by many members of the Fianna Fáil Party, including myself, where his policy would lead and what would be its results. He deliberately inflated in an inflationary situation. When prices were rising, he pumped out more money, which had the result of driving up prices higher still and of generating the stream of imports which the Minister is now taking panic measures to stem.

What was required in 1948 and since was a steady pursuit of a sensible policy of telling the people that we here could continue to live at a certain standard of life, only if we earned it by our efforts. He made them believe that that was just stupidity on the part of Fianna Fáil—that, with a little bit of financial wizardry, their standard of living could be doubled and at the same time their leisure increased. It was as a result of that policy and of that propaganda of Deputy McGilligan and those associated with him over the years that this situation was created in which we have to impose all these taxes, fresh extra taxes, and impose all these special levies on a multiplicity of articles in daily use.

I hope that the Fine Gael Party will let this lesson sink in and that their supporters down the country will let it sink in. Their first act, coming in here as a Government the last time, was to add fuel to the flames. Prices were rising. Everybody knew that a steady hand would have to be kept at the helm; and they jumped in to spend millions of money unnecessarily, more than Fianna Fáil had been spending. It was they who set the headline by dishing out the millions to the Civil Service. By that action, they indicated to the people that, in their belief, we all could live at a higher standard of life without more effort, and that act alone had a great influence in creating this situation that has to be met by increasing taxation on many things and putting these special levies on a thousand different articles.

I hope that, before this debate ends, Deputy McGilligan will come into this House. I asked yesterday when the debate opened that he should be sent for. I want to challenge him to come into this House and tell the people that, when he promised them he was going to reduce taxation by £20,000,000, he was merely talking with his tongue in his cheek and that he was deliberately deceiving. I think the Fine Gael Party have a right to treat Deputy McGilligan from this time forth with the utmost contempt if he is afraid to come into this House during a financial debate and take part in it.

There have been three major financial debates within the last three months. Deputy McGilligan has voted on every one of them, but not on one of them did he speak for one minute. Does anybody remember a financial debate for the past 30 years in which Deputy McGilligan did not take part? He often spoke for hours on Second Readings, on Resolutions and on Committee Stages of this kind. He would keep the Dáil going for a week, but he has not come into this House and the reason he has not come into it is that he is afraid to come in. The people can see now the results of what was alleged to be his wizardry in finance —that it was simply a piece of financial stupidity—if you would not call it blackguardism—because Deputy McGilligan had an idea of what he was doing. He had some inkling, and he deliberately inflated in an inflationary situation, merely to avoid certain political difficulties.

I have here the debate on the Vote on Account for 1951-52, 8th of March, 1951, and I was warning Deputy McGilligan where he was going. He was boasting about what he was spending and I said, in column 1619:—

"Unfortunately you are not paying for it. It is the future taxpayers who will have to pay for it. You are just passing the buck."

Deputy McGilligan said:—

"It is a question of know-how,"

and I replied:—

"A thimble-rigger."

Deputy McGilligan said:—

"I do not want to put too great a strain on Deputy Aiken by asking him to try and understand what is going on now. Let him wait another year or so and it may dawn on him. But there is the situation. It is not an easy situation. It is not one that will induce anybody in charge of finance to rest very easy in his sleep at night. It is attended by risks."

I said:—

"If you faced up to it you would not sleep at all."

The ordinary sensible person with a knowledge of finance would have known that, if we continued to spend and attempted to live at a higher standard of living than our production would afford, we were going to run into great difficulties, and that our last state would be very much worse than our first. Any person who has access to credit can live at a higher standard than he is prepared to work for; but he can only do it for a time. The bills start to come in. Deputy McGilligan's bills were presented to Fianna Fáil, but we were not long enough in office to stabilise the situation. The present Minister for Finance came in and Deputy McGilligan's shadow, and his influence was still around Fine Gael. They created the difficult situation for which the people of the country are going to have to pay.

Unfortunately, it will not rest at mere parting with pounds, shillings and pence. Owing to the financial blackguardism of the gentleman I have been talking about, we have parted with our ability to develop rapidly to meet the present economic situation facing our people. The only thing that drove the Fine Gael people to face this situation was their inability to borrow the money they desired to spend. Only when their loan failed did they admit that their policies would create difficulties. Only when the difficulties were almost overwhelming did they take some measures—and some of them, as has been pointed out, were panic measures—to deal with the situation. The Minister seems, from his speech, to realise that the standard of living of our people in the future must depend, not upon their wishes, but upon their actions, that we can live, not at the high standard at which we wish to live, but at the standard that we are prepared to work to earn.

There is a very grave economic situation existing at the present time. Anyone who thinks at all of the future must be very nervous indeed because of the economic trends of the present day. Instead of trying to build up whatever strength we have in the country, we have been throwing policies like wheat-growing, production of our own farm products for our own needs, out the window. In a difficult, unbalanced situation in regard to our foreign payments, we seem to be doing our utmost to add £18,000,000 more to the national deficit. It is just crazy policy and I hope that the Fine Gael supporters throughout the country will insist that the Government will make changes, will change their outlook, will not only get rid of McGilliganism but will also get rid of Dillonism, because it is that combination that has brought us to this situation and that combination, if it continues, will bring this country to a state in which it will require intense efforts of our people to recover.

What the country wanted for the past 20 or 30 years was a steady pursuit of a sensible policy. It is wanted in the future. It is wanted more urgently now than in the past because we have gone through the reserves our people had; we have gone through them like water. We have little more. The people have lost confidence in the Government. They will not even support the national loans. It will require, therefore, a steady and patient effort on the part of the Government and energetic work on the part of the people to enable us to turn the corner and to increase national production, which must be the basis of any increase in the standard of life of our people. I shall conclude by saying once again that I hope Deputy McGilligan will come into this House on the Committee Stage of this Bill and talk. Let us hear from him.

There is no doubt that the new taxes imposed by the Minister have, as the Lord Mayor of Cork, Deputy McGrath, said, led to a very large amount of unemployment in one of the largest industries in this country, the largest industry in Cork—the Henry Ford concern. Deputies from any area in the vicinity of Cork every day have unfortunate people coming to them asking: "What have you done with us? Is there any hope?" Those people, as Deputy Lemass pointed out, are in highly specialised industries and will undoubtedly have to leave this country and get employment elsewhere. That might suit the programme laid out here by the financial wizard of Fine Gael, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government, Deputy O'Donovan, or the policy laid out by the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon. It might suit them. They are the propagandists of the safety valve of emigration.

The whole of this trouble can be traced back to the spree that the Government indulged in when they were last in office. It is rather amusing to see what did happen in that period and the result of it to-day. Those people borrowed some £72,000,000 to run this country for three and a half years. At that time, the Yanks lent and the dead weight debt, the interest debt, that has to be found every year increased from £4,000,000 in 1948 to over £10,000,000 a year in 1952. That was £6,000,000 a year that had to be found by taxation or otherwise. Those people thought they had their own way of finding it. They might have had a chance of finding it in 1952 by borrowing to pay the interest on what was owed already.

Speaking in this House on 13th May, 1952—Volume 131, column 1438 of the Official Report—Deputy MacEntee, then Minister for Finance, pointed out the danger to them. He said:—

"We have been borrowing and borrowing for the last three years. We have doubled the national debt. We have more than doubled the amount which we must provide in this Budget for sinking fund and interest, the amount which we must raise under various heads for sinking fund and interest charged to the Supply Services and sinking fund and interest charged to the Central Fund. It has risen from £4,000,000 to £9,000,000 over the past three years."

By a question that I asked in this House in the same week, I found that it had risen from £4,250,000 to something over £10,000,000.

I quote from column 1439 of the same volume:—

"Mr. MacEntee: I am perfectly certain that if Deputy Costello were sitting over here, if by any misfortune, by any punishing stroke of Providence, Deputy Costello were put here, there is not a single measure, a single tax, imposed in this Finance Bill, he would repeal.

Mr. J.A. Costello: I would repeal every one of them if I were over there.

General Mulcahy: He would remove £10,000,000 in ten minutes."

It is a wonder that those financial experts are not now removing £10,000,000 in ten minutes, instead of coming in here imposing further taxation, instead of driving men who were working, as Deputy McGrath said, for the past ten to 20 years in Henry Ford's, out in the emigrant ship. That is what they are doing.

If the Minister wants to impose taxation, let him impose taxation on wheat, as Deputy McGrath said; let him tax the foreign wheat coming in and not drive the agricultural community of this country to drop production of 129,000 acres of wheat in 12 months. Let him deal with sugar in the same way. There has been a reduction in the production of beet here that represented 27,000 tons of sugar less last year than were produced the year before last, at a cost of £1,200,000 going out to purchase sugar that could be produced by the Irish farmer and provide an income for the Irish farmer. That is where the money has gone.

People have to get their hair cut and they tax the hair-cutting machine. Every time a person wants to get his hair cut now, there is 27 per cent. put on to the machine for cutting it. If he wants to shave there is a tax on that, too. It is a luxury now if anybody wants to get his hair cut. It is also a luxury if he does not want to grow whiskers. Those are the things that have been taxed.

If the Minister wants to restore the balance of payments the method is very simple. First, he should take the Minister for Foolish Affairs, or the Minister for Agriculture, as they call him, and send him out of the country. It would pay this country to pay for an extended holiday for that gentleman until those fellows get out of office. They had to send him out before when he was advising the farmers to grow oats and when the rats of the country were eating them. They shifted him out then and why not shift him out now?

We, agriculturists, are asked for more production while we see the people who are not responsible for producing anything in this country getting increases for every increase in the cost of living. The increase that is meted out to us is to cut, by Government action, the price of everything we produce. Then the Minister for Finance comes along and tells us to save so that he can borrow from us to pay the people who do not produce. That is the basis upon which the whole of this thing is founded but I know that as far as agriculture is concerned, there is not going to be any increase in production. The Government can shake their hats at that. There will be a reduction in production so long as the particular taxes put on the agricultural community by that Government over there remain in force. There has been a penal tax of £5 per ton on our wheat, a penal tax imposed by coming along and preventing the Irish farmer from getting what he was bound by agreement to get.

This Government did it before. When those people were over there before they reduced the production of beet by 14,000 acres. This year it is going down by 18,500 acres. Why? Let the people ask themselves that. It was all right the last time. They could go to Uncle Sam every month and borrow more and more. We had the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who "bummed" the whole of the United States for two months of this year pretending that he was looking for new industries. What he was looking for was to see if he could get anybody to lend him a bob but there was not a bob forthcoming. The Taoiseach was sent after him to "bum" for money but he could not get any money either. They came home then and went to the farmers and producers of this country, and asked them for a loan, and they did not get it. Why do they not get out? Are they determined that they are going to pull this country down into such a condition that nobody can build it up again? Is that the sole reason they are remaining there?

Those are the things the people are asking themselves. This Government wanted £20,000,000. They looked for it and it was not there for them. The income of the agricultural community has been reduced by £13,000,000 in 12 months. Now the bottom is falling out of the cattle trade and three-fourths of the rates will be collected next year by the bailiff. There are some sensible Deputies sitting over there who know that.

Notice taken that 20 Deputies were not present; House counted, and 20 Deputies being present,

Unfortunately the dragnet has not brought in any of the financial wizards I was looking for. I was in hopes that it would. I would like to see the Minister for Education here. He would probably tell us how he was going to remove that £10,000,000 in ten minutes. Those are the things in which we are interested. If we are going to have any kind of a balanced economy in this country, we must cease importing luxuries and by luxuries I mean anything that the agricultural community, or any other industry in this country, can produce here, that they are driving out of production, and that has to be bought out of the taxation imposed on the people of this country.

That is what is wrong as far as the finances of this country are concerned. The Minister knows that. He knows very well that if we had not to export money now, to purchase from the foreigner the sugar that was produced here up to now by the Irish farmer, he need not impose those taxes to-day. The Minister knows that he will have to pay the foreigner for the 129,000 tons of wheat that were produced here until the Minister and his Government taxed the wheat. That money must be found by a tax on hair-cutting machines. I suppose one will have to get one's hair cut and there is 27½ per cent. on that machine.

The Deputy has already covered that.

Those are the items that make it up. The Minister knows he will not get any further loan from America. The Minister knows that both the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Taoiseach went to America for that reason. The Minister has not told us the cause of the holdup in connection with the oil refinery. Those are the matters in which we are interested. The Minister comes in here with tax proposals which will drive into the labour exchanges of this country all our people and drive out of the country men who were in constant employment for a number of years. The Minister knows that and knows that a desperate case needs desperate remedies.

The Minister finds himself in the position in which Deputy MacEntee found himself in 1952, that of having to find by taxes the money required, except that, in the case of Deputy MacEntee, the money needed was to pay for the spree indulged in by Deputy Sweetman, the Minister for Finance, and this mixum-gatherum crowd during the three and a half years they were in office before. That £7,000,000 a year extra must still be found and will have to be found by taxation, no matter who is on the Front Bench opposite.

"The evil men do lives after them". Borrowing has been going on at the rate of £25,000,000 and £30,000,000 a year to run this bit of an island. The Minister knows that and he knows that every year there is a further burden added. Four million pounds were required in 1948 for service of the public debt. It was £10,000,000 when the Coalition ran the last time. It is £13,000,000 now according to a reply to a question I asked in this House a fortnight ago, but the general public have decided it is not going to go any higher because they are not going to lend them the money.

It is time a halt was called. That is the condition of affairs that has been brought about by one wild, spending spree from 1948 to 1951. Uncle Sam asked: "How much do you want, boys? I will give it to you." Then we had the Minister for Agriculture coming in here and telling us that he had an awful job because he had to spend £1,500,000 in five minutes. That is the way the money was spent and now the country is paying for it.

Was that the Argentine wheat?

Perhaps the Minister for Foolish Affairs would mind the dual purpose hen and he might get something out of the infertile eggs he mentioned some time ago.

Would the Deputy give us a song about the Peeler and the Goat?

Perhaps it was tomatoes the Deputy was interested in. He was one of the boys who helped in the spending spree. Now he has a sick head and I cannot help him, although I would love to get him a cure. I am endeavouring to point out that you cannot have this burden of debt increased every couple of years without further taxation and that you cannot, as is sought to be done, drive the main producers of this country out of production and go abroad in order to pay for what they were producing without further taxation. Those are the two main things.

Added to that is the fact that one section of the community in this country is protected against every wind that blows. Every time there is any increase in the cost of living in this country, one section of the community will get a couple of million pounds more, no matter where it is found and the rest of the country can pay. Those three things account for every item of extra taxation and every unit of electricity burned by that unfortunate Minister for the past three months in an endeavour to discover where he was going to find something to tax. God knows he has to go very far indeed when he has to go down to the old razor and the hair-cutting machines.

Unfortunately, his activities have created a further problem. His activities will mean a further increase in the cost of living. There is no doubt about that. There will be a further round, I take it, of increases for the protected classes. That is what it is all leading to. They are no longer able to borrow because no one would lend them the money. Why did they not get out decently then and admit that the people would not trust them?

I remember the time at Ballyduff when we hunted Deputy Lynch when he tried to come in before and I gave a description of what was happening. I said we should raise money by taxes every year to pay for their borrowings. On the other hand, those other gentlemen believed they should borrow again to pay the interest. I remember saying there was not a bank manager in Europe who would lend them a "fiver" between them. That is what is happening here. Nobody will lend them money. They are too irresponsible.

The banks of this country look around and see all that has happened. They see a Minister in charge of agriculture who believes in bringing in agricultural produce from the ends of the earth and in driving out of production the farmers of this country. They see a Minister for Industry and Commerce who sits still and who does his part in the rake's progress by wiping out the pig industry by taxing pig feeding. They see these things happening. People with money in this country are not fools. They ask: To whom will we lend it? I seriously suggest to the Minister for Finance that if he has any sense at all he will advise the Taoiseach to take a ramble over to Áras an Uachtaráin to-morrow morning and throw in his hand and get out before his Government brings this country to such a financial mess that nobody will be able to bring order back again. Get out, and my advice is to get out now.

One of the items in the section under debate at the moment in which I am particularly interested is the import levy on newsprint and newspapers. I raised this matter on another occasion with the Minister. At that time, I thought something would be done in regard to the duty now being levied on papers produced in the Six Counties which circulate on our side of the Border.

On many occasions, we have heard the Minister's colleagues talk about the ending of Partition. On many occasions also, we have listened to members of the present Government talk of the Six Counties as belonging to the Irish nation and say that, in fact, they are part of the Irish nation. At the same time, the Minister for Finance now puts a levy on papers printed in the Six Counties—a levy that describes these papers as foreign newspapers. If we are to take any heed of what is said by the members of the Government in their rantings and, we might say, ravings, throughout the country at various times in connection with the Six Counties, the status of the Six Counties and who really owns them, it seems strange— listening to those claims and outbursts that are made occasionally—that we should find a member of the Government, with the Government's approval, coming here and saying that papers printed in Derry City are foreign newspapers and, as such, should be taxed.

It has been stated in some northern papers that the levy was an accidental levy, that it was never really intended to bring within the new taxation net the papers now circulating in the Twenty-Six Counties, but printed in the Six Counties. If that is so, if it was purely accidental, why have the Minister and the Government not taken steps to remedy that accident and to relieve these papers of the tax they are now bearing?

On various occasions, in this House and outside it, I have listened to the people on the Government Benches talk about the way we can end Partition. The theme we have most recently heard, after many changes and fluctuations, is that we should get to know the people in the Six Counties and understand them. Where else can we get a better understanding of the people in the Six Counties and the way they live and the way they carry on their business than in their newspapers printed in the Six Counties?

If there is anything genuine in this new theme that understanding is what is most needed between the people of the Six-County territory and the people of the Twenty-Six Counties, then the northern newspapers circulating in the Twenty-Six Counties are obviously one of the main answers to that problem. Despite the fact that that could be so, and likely is, we find that the Minister for Finance is still sticking to his guns in regard to this levy on Six-County newspapers. He is adhering to it and he intends to-day, I take it, to make it a final law that will be binding for a considerable period, if not for all time.

Since last I spoke here, one of the theories I heard advanced and one of the theories that best holds water in regard to this matter is this. County Donegal is the worst hit county so far as his levy is concerned. Down through the years, we have been dependent to a large extent—almost exclusively— for our provincial newspapers on those printed in the Six Counties. That includes Catholic and non-Catholic papers: it is not just one or the other.

All sections of the community in Donegal, to a large degree, depend for their provincial news on the papers printed in the Six Counties. So far as I know and so far as I hear, the officially sponsored and owned provincial paper—owned and directed week after week by the Fine Gael Party— circulating in Donegal has been falling on evil days. It has not been paying its way of late, and small wonder. The name of the paper is The People's Press: that is what is printed on the front. However, it is commonly known as “The Gutter Press” or “The Donkey Press.”

That does not arise.

Does the Deputy know the circulation of that paper at the present moment?

I want to bring to the Minister's attention one of the main reasons, that now appears evident, why this tax has been laid on the provincial Press printed in the Six Counties and circulating in Donegal. Since the tax was supposedly accidental, the big reason why it is being retained is that this "Gutter Press," circulated on behalf of Fine Gael throughout Donegal, has fallen on evil times. It cannot pay its way and the best way to boost its circulation is to put all other papers in the area out of circulation. Apparently that is the motive and if it is, then it is just as much in the gutter as the paper I have been talking about.

The Minister should realise that, despite the fact that he belongs to the Fine Gael political Party, he should try and raise himself a little above the level of this paper and those associated with it. He should try to bring some sense to bear on this problem. He should remember that, since 1772, the Derry Journal, printed in Derry City, has been the main paper circulating in the North, North-East and North-West of Donegal. He should realise that that paper has got a tradition behind it, that its traditions have been well-founded and that its traditions have been nationalist for a long time. He should realise that the people who, down through the years, have been supporting and buying that newspaper should not now—in a county which, God knows, suffers enough disadvantages already due to the Border—have to suffer this further burden of the increased price of the Derry newspapers by a penny per copy.

If the real reason behind all this is to try to boost the sales of The People's Press in Donegal, in an endeavour to keep the truth from the people as to what is going on in this House, then I suggest that, to do the thing honestly, the Minister should propose to raise some sort of subsidy or make an Order to subsidise this sort of Press which cannot maintain itself.

The section deals with the tax on imported newspapers.

The circulation of that paper is increasing every year. That is Deputy Blaney's sore point.

The Deputy from Sligo knows well that the people who run that paper are members of his Party and that it is run purely as a political organ and nothing else. It is a distorter of the truth.

That does not arise on this section. The Deputy may not discuss a newspaper published in the Twenty-Six Counties in the way in which he is discussing it on this section.

Is it as bad as the Irish Press?

I bow to the ruling of the Chair. Surely it is rare to find ourselves being bludgeoned by taxes into buying a paper in a county where, in the past, we have been well served by a provincial Press that is now no longer available to us at a fair price? That action has been brought about by the present Minister and the Government in bringing these taxes to bear on Six-County papers and describing them as "foreign newspapers." It is entirely unfair that this should be done, and it certainly does not show anything to the advantage of this Government.

We had the circulation figures given here not so long ago——

We are not discussing the circulation of the People's Press or that of any paper produced in the Twenty-Six Counties.

I would suggest to the Deputy who is doing the interrupting that if he and his colleagues want——

The Deputy must come to the section.

The section deals with this unjust tax placed on the northern newspapers and I am dealing with the injustices being done to the people of my county who no longer have available to them at fair prices any decent provincial news in any newspaper that is now circulated. We have in the south of our county one paper that does circulate and does a good job in contrast to the paper I have already mentioned, but in the north and north-east and north-west we are dependent to a very large degree on the Derry Journal and the Derry People, while our non-Catholic friends are dependent on the Derry Sentinel and the Derry Standard. Those are papers that are being precluded from circulating in this State at the moment by the present Minister for Finance in a Government which, on various occasions, has stated that if we want to end Partition we must do it by understanding. The understanding that we get from reading of the happenings and goings-on in the Six Counties is now being denied to us, and the hypocrisy evident in the Government's handling of this matter is typical of the hypocrisy we have come to expect from them in their dealings with any matter brought into this House.

I want to bring it to the attention of the Minister that he is being unfair to the people of Donegal, unfair to the people in the Six Counties and unfair to the whole problem of solving Partition by enforcing this tax which he has levied, a tax which he has put on for the reason I have already indicated, of trying to boost a dying organ that is and always has been regarded as a newspaper of a nature not worthy of reading and which has come to be known——

This has no connection with the section.

Let him alone; he is quoting from the leader of the Derry Journal.

I would suggest that the Deputy from Sligo who has a few pounds tied up in this dying organ should not feel so sore because I am trying to expose the truth in this House.

Surely it is a long-established rule of this House that the personal business of any Deputy may not be referred to in the way in which Deputy Blaney has referred to it.

The Deputy should not refer to the personal business of any Deputy.

I would ask, if I am to refrain from making statements that should not be made in the House, that Deputies on the other side of the House should at least refrain from interrupting me when I am speaking about anything else.

I take it the statement is withdrawn?

I would point out to the Minister that if there is no hope of getting any relief for Six-County newspapers circulating in the Twenty-Six Counties, he is doing irreparable damage in curtailing the circulation of such papers in the Twenty-Six Counties by means of this levy. The latest stand that this Government has been taking, that of trying to understand the people of the Six Counties, is being defeated by this tax which has been brought in and which we are asked to confirm here to-day.

Even now at this stage, will the Minister say whether or not this tax was put on by accident or was it intentionally put on? Was it really considered at the time that it would affect Six-County papers and cause them to be treated as foreign newspapers? Or, as has been said in leading articles in some of these papers in the recent past, was it really the fact that the Minister and his advisers, at the time of bringing in this tax earlier this year, were not aware that these papers circulated in the Twenty-Six Counties although they were printed in the North, and would come under this tax? Would the Minister indicate whether it was done by accident or by design? Of course the Minister is not anxious to commit himself in any way on this particular matter—he never has been so far as I am concerned, at any rate. He will whip up those behind him and will go into the Division Lobbies to confirm this tax and at the same time some of his Party supporters can come along and say later: "It was an accident". If the people on the Government Benches to-day are going to vote for this tax, I want it to be clearly understood that they are doing so intentionally and by design and that no excuses will be taken from any of the Minister's colleagues later on if they come along with such excuses as: "This just happened by accident. We did not intend to do it."

We are tired of listening to that sort of plea in regard to any unpopular measures. My county is hit badly in this matter. I take it that the Government is not one bit interested whether that happens or not for the very good reason that my county has never been very friendly or well-disposed to this Government. The Government can rest assured that in future my county will be less well-disposed, now that we know that we cannot get anything from the Government, not even the ordinary newspapers at the prices at which they circulate elsewhere. The least we can hope for and expect from the Government is that they will come to Donegal, not on this question of newspapers but on the question of a general election and that they will do it soon.

The Deputy may not discuss that on the section.

The people will not forget every penny extra they are asked to pay for provincial newspapers and they will not be bludgeoned into supporting the gutter Press of Donegal by the Minister's levy.

Those of us who have had to listen to Deputy Blaney over the years since he came into this House know that there is no member who can so debase the standards of debate here. We have listened to one of the most disgusting pieces of scurrility that this House has ever had to put up with. Deputy Blaney should not try to judge other people by his own standards of conduct. Deputy Blaney should try to remember that if he proposes to carry out public business by the standard which he has just laid down or standards which he suggested I observe, others have a higher standard of honour in discharging the duties of the positions to which they have been appointed. The suggestion that the circulation, the politics or anything to do with the People's Press, had any connection, good, bad or indifferent with the special import levy on newspapers coming into this country is untrue. Any Deputy who had a shred of honour would not make such a suggestion against a Minister. It is like the suggestion that the Deputy made a very short time ago about a breach of a Budget secret by a member of the Cabinet, a suggestion from which he then had to run away, when even the members of his own Party realised and fully understood that it was an irresponsible, scurrilous suggestion then as this one is to-day.

Is the Minister denying it now?

The Minister is not going to pay any further attention to the type of dirty scurrility——

Is the Minister going to run away from it again?

That matter has already been disposed of in the House and there will be no further discussion allowed on it.

Outside——

I should like the Deputy to repeat outside what he has said, under privilege of the House, about me and the manner in which I deal with my responsibilities. I would give him a lesson he would not forget for a long time.

What about taking off the duty?

Deputy Blaney made a dirty, disgusting charge that I was influenced by the circumstances and politics of the People's Press in imposing the special import levy on newspapers coming into the State. That is untrue.

Was it an accident?

If the Deputy had the common manners or decency to listen to the answer I gave to Deputy Lemass——

The Deputy certainly did not understand that answer.

Deputy Blaney is incapable of understanding ordinary, straight language. For the benefit of other Deputies who are capable of understanding, let me say quite categorically what the reason was for the imposition of the special import levy. It was imposed as a fiscal means of deterring imports. The special import levy on imported newspapers was imposed for that purpose, as I said a half an hour ago. Much as we regret it on all sides of the House, there is in existence, against our will, a customs barrier. So long as it is there we must operate on that basis in relation to industry. When goods are imported across it duties must be paid on them.

As I told Deputy Lemass earlier, deputations from Six-County newspapers came to see me. I did not tell them that the duty was imposed by accident. I did not try and shelter under any such excuse. The duty on imported newspapers was imposed because of our balance of payments situation. It was understood at the time that, of necessity, the price of certain newspapers bought here might be increased. So far as the remarks of Deputy Aiken are concerned I do not think that I should, on this section, go into the wider issues that he raised except, perhaps, to say that I believe we shall have this year, this harvest, approximately the same amount of native wheat as we had last year. Perhaps we shall have slightly more and that it will run in or around the 300,000 tons that were fixed by the previous Government as being the desirable amount with which to amalgamate imported wheat for the purpose of giving a suitable machine-run flour. There is no justification for the suggestion made by Deputy Aiken that any wheat was imported up to this or will be imported this year because we had run below that figure.

As I have said, the purpose of these levies is that they will act as a deterrent primarily. In case anybody might misinterpret me in referring to Deputy Lemass's remark about the revenue that would be raised from these levies, I want to make it perfectly clear again that the revenue from the special import levy goes into the capital and not into the current revenue. Therefore, it does not seem apposite to me for the Deputy to suggest that it would be considered in the same context as ordinary remissions of taxation. I maintain that the fiscal method is better than physical control. I gather from Deputy Lemass that the official policy of his Party is that physical control would be better. I think physical controls should not be introduced unless it is clear beyond question that fiscal control has first failed. It is because I feel that fiscal controls are preferable that I adopted these methods.

When discussing this section of the Finance Bill, I think the public should be made aware that the only reason that these taxes are necessary is simply because the public have been conditioned by the Coalition Government to the belief that the amount of external investments available was almost limitless. It is just as well to consider, as I have said, these levies and the effect they will have on employment, the effect they will have on the requirements of the people, in that light. We have now the fantastic situation that, at the end of some nine years after the war, we have spent the whole of our foreign savings, that 350,000 people have emigrated from this country, that agricultural production is only about 10 per cent. higher than it was in 1926 or 1911 and that the total number of people employed here, taking agriculture and industry together, is the same as in 1926. It is a pretty grim picture. It means we have wasted the whole of our period. It means that while progress has been made in practically every other North European country, whether that country was neutral during the war or devastated, the same progress has not been reflected here. It means that we failed to use the advantages of our neutrality during the war, and that we failed to take advantage of the tide of savings that came into the country during the same period.

The Minister now chooses to impose these emergency levies in order to try to stop the flow of savings that is gradually ebbing from the people of this country because they have been conditioned by the Coalition Government to believe that everything could be pleasant for them, that no effort was required, that external assets were indefinite in quantity, that they could be utilised for any purpose. There has been no proper plan to improve production on a fundamental basis and, as a result, we are now in this position.

We have no great volume of easily found reserve savings for capital investment. We are now trying to find the capital money for this year's capital services. The Minister for Finance has informed the people that, over and above this emergency levy, unless the people are prepared to save twice what they saved last year, he will be unable to keep the State capital programme in the way he would desire. He has not told the House what he would do if these savings failed to be accumulated in the manner in which he wishes them.

These emergency levies were imposed as a result of utterly foolish thinking on the part of the Coalition since the war on the whole subject of our savings and our external assets. There have been periods since the war when the Coalition Government were almost giving medals to those who were prepared to sell their assets. They almost had a roll of medals to dole out to those who were prepared to sell their assets, suggesting that the sale of these assets was doing something good for the country. We have begun to learn the bitter truth of that nonsensical talk, which began in 1949 when the Taoiseach told the Bankers' Institute about the desirability of repatriating external assets. Without speaking of the necessity for the provision of a sufficient margin so that we could increase our production by capital schemes, the Coalition Government simply gave the people the idea that there was an easy method of progress, that everything would come right in the long run.

I suppose it is absolutely true to say that the Minister for Finance has not yet told the truth to the people about our present position, that when the Government spends money they encourage imports, that when a large amount of capital expenditure is engaged in, the inevitable result is the import of more goods, that if men are paid extra wages, they spend 10/- in every £ of those wages on imported goods, that unless either a rise in cattle prices continues or there is a genuine increase in total production in the State, the day will come when the whole economy of the country will be distorted to the point that far too many people are engaged in importing goods in one form or another, either in producing goods largely of imported materials or of causing goods to be imported in one form or another.

Now we have reached that position and the Minister for Finance is introducing these levies, and he and his colleagues do not even agree about the general economic climate of the country at the present time. We have Labour Ministers going around telling trade unions that the increases in wages are an effective fulfilment of their promise to reduce the cost of living. We have the Trade Union Congress's official journal denying that it is necessary to restrict consumption in any way and implying that, so far as any action taken by the Government along those lines is concerned, it is wrong. We have Ministers going around during the course of the by-election using the expression: "To hell with the balance of payments". We have the Taoiseach on 26th January, 1956, in his address to the Cork Chamber of Commerce, explaining the reason why this levy is necessary, and these are his own words:—

"...if we recognise the futility of seeking to offset rising prices by a rise in money wages unaccompanied by a rise in output... We are faced in 1956 with the prospects of experiencing the effects of a full year's wage and salary increases which cannot fall short of £15,000,000... it would not be surprising if more than one half of the increase in money incomes were spent on imported goods or home produced goods with a large import content."

Therefore, the Minister and his colleagues encourage increases in wages and salaries. The Minister increases the salaries of the Civil Service and then proceeds to put emergency levies on goods in order to stop people spending. It is a lunatic form of economy, a lunatic method of expanding production in this country. Whatever its temporary necessity may be, it is just as well that the people realise the position with which they are faced. These levies are necessary simply because Ministers of the ilk of the Minister for Defence have been roaring around this country for ten years, telling people that we have £500,000,000 invested in Britain and that the sooner we bring it all back the better, and that if anybody even quietly warned people that there were liabilities against this £500,000,000, that the liabilities had come so close to the assets that a dangerous position was reached, he was a Britisher; he was encouraging this country to lend money to the British to suppress the Mau Mau.

The Coalition deliberately gave the idea to the people over the last ten years that any single person who gave any warning in regard to the repatriation of assets had something anti-Irish about him, that he was trying to stop employment, was trying to encourage emigration. In this way, those people who had the time or the energy to study economics, if they should listen to any one of my colleagues or myself, would get this little worm into their brain: "That fellow is trying to encourage emigration. That fellow is anti-Irish. That fellow is really pro-British."

That is the atmosphere in which we have been living in the past nine years. All we in Fianna Fáil wanted to do was to ensure that our external assets would be devoted largely and mainly either to reducing our imports, with greater production in that direction, or to increasing our exports. The position is, as I have already said, that the economy of the country has now got out of hand and it will be extraordinarily difficult for the Minister for Finance to bring it back into a form in which we can continue to make progress.

Even during the past few months, I do not consider that the present Government have made the position sufficiently clear. I remember the Minister for Finance telling the country in 1951 that he was going to spend lavishly and still more lavishly. I remember the Tánaiste saying in 1951 that it was ridiculous for the people to deprive themselves of all the pleasures of life and that the more external assets that were spent the better. No one of the Coalition Government ever seemed to realise that one day agricultural prices would cease rising, that one day they would be faced with some crisis which would make it necessary to have an extra reserve of net, immediately usable external asests with which to deal with the difficult trading position. They did not seem to realise that, in addition to requiring a volume of savings enabling a complete and revolutionary change to be made in our agricultural production, in order that we could expand our industrial exports, over and above that, we needed millions upon millions of pounds with which we could assist in cushioning the result of a trade depression, equally of an inflation, or of any other circumstances where it became difficult for us to import the normal amount of goods required for our people.

There is nothing over-conservative in that statement I have made. We have not at this moment got that cushion of savings enabling us to get over difficulties which we all have to admit are partly due to world conditions and partly due to the conduct of the Coalition Government and of the Ministers in the way they have spoken about this matter ever since the war. Now that we have to impose levies, it is as well the country should know the reason for them.

How many times in the past nine years has any Coalition Minister, when speaking on the question of our foreign assets, ever referred to our foreign liabilities? I have read the newspapers week after week and month after month and on every single occasion these speakers merely wave before the people this huge sum of £400,000,000 or £500,000,000 of foreign assets, some of which are private and cannot be touched by the Government, save by some special socialist measures, and some of which may be seen and can be controlled to a certain extent. How often have Ministers in the course of the past nine years adverted to the fact that our foreign liabilities were growing steadily every single year and that we have now reached the point where, according to the statement made by Deputy de Valera, which nobody has contradicted, the net balance between assets and liabilities is approximately £100,000,000? That includes both private assets and those which are visible and which we can control.

I have heard the Minister say—and this, of course, has given people the idea that they can go on indefinitely exhausting these external assets—that wage and salary increases can be given without any increase in output; and people have the idea that, so long as the money is spent on giving employment, the import content resulting from the employment does not matter and that, somehow or other, the money will be found to pay for the imports that come in as a result of the spending of that money. We have the Taoiseach's admission that the last round of salary and wage increases will, in his view, cause a huge increase in imports this year; and he says that these increases took place without any increase in output.

The Coalition Government have, by their own policy, caused a complete distortion of the employment-giving capacities of this State since the war, until now the expenditure of money has driven up imports while not sufficiently expanding exports or reducing imports but causing rather the import of more and more goods. The task of reorganising our economy now and of getting a voluntary decision by the people for a tremendous expansion in production, will unfortunately be more difficult. The Minister now wants the people to save more money and we have, at the same time, the extraordinary position that he has not yet secured the leadership of the workers in that regard.

We have the statements made by trade union leaders over the radio encouraging the people to save one day and the next day making statements, through their official organ, that it is not necessary to reduce consumer spending. The Minister for Finance had better be very frank with the people and tell them that, if they are going to save, they must reduce consumer spending; and, if they save enough to provide him with the capital he will require over the next three years, that may have some effect on employment in the State.

Does the Minister really imagine that these emergency levies will be sufficient to deal with this problem? If he asks the people to save money, they will only refrain from spending money purely on imported goods. He has not made the position sufficiently clear. When we discuss these import levies, we may as well, as I have said, discuss them in an atmosphere of realism, an atmosphere in which the country will know where it stands and in which we have now to build up patiently a sufficient volume of savings and increase our production in every form, our production for export and any other production we have which will have a measurable effect in reducing imports.

But the reason for these levies in the main lies in the foolish and idiotic speech made by the Taoiseach at the Bankers' Institute in 1949, which was misunderstood in many ways and misapplied in others ever since that time. All I can say is that, although we did make some effort when we were in office to bring the position back to normal—to a reasonable extent, we did manage to bring the balance of payments position back to normal—we did not complete the job. I admit that. We were not able to complete the job and do all that was required in order to reverse the adverse trend. We were not long enough in office to do that, but we did at least make an effort. The Government now will find it extraordinarily difficult to reverse the state of affairs which they themselves have inaugurated.

Once more, I can say I had no intention of taking part in this debate and I would not do so now were it not for a number of remarks made by Deputy Childers. Deputy Childers used to be a specialist in figures. For a long period Deputy Childers was engaged in taking out the statistics in economic matters that suited his case and waving them around the country. But, to-day, I notice a remarkable difference in his approach. There have been no figures. But there has been the philosophy that, if the country is in difficulties—mark that "if"—that is due entirely to some statements that were made, since the war, by the people who are now on this side of the House. He did produce two figures, to the best of my recollection, in the whole of his statement: one, that there were £500,000,000 external assets and the other——

All right, gross— and the other was that the leader of the Opposition had made a statement that the net was now £100,000,000 and that nobody had denied that. All right. I deny it categorically here and now.

Nobody believes you.

I do not give two hoots. The fact of the matter is that I asked the Central Statistics Office at the beginning of this year to make out for me an estimate of what our external assets were. I wanted to have a full appreciation of this campaign. I wanted to know how our assets had altered over a period of years. On another occasion, I read out here in this House the figures with which I was supplied. It is sufficient for my purpose now to take the figures at the beginning of the period—that is, roughly the end of 1946—and the middle of last year.

What was I told? The figures had varied during the period. I give the Opposition the point that they were low at the end of 1951 in that period. At the end of 1946, they were £500,000,000 and, at the end of 1955, they were £500,000,000. Now, it is not the same money. I will point out to the Opposition that there are certain parts of it—the least valuable parts of it—which have declined more in value than other parts. Deputy Lemass—I think he probably holds the same view —is quite capable of thinking that out for himself. At any rate, the gross is £500,000,000 at the end of 1955 just as it was £500,000,000 at the end of 1946.

What have we done in the meantime? Deputy Childers does not see that we have done anything, but, wherever I go, I see the benefits of the capital investment programme, recently referred to as having been inaugurated in 1949 in a paper before the Statistical Society. Is that, or is it not, correct? Was it inaugurated in 1949 or was it inaugurated at some other time? Can we make that progress without realising some of our assets? Can we develop the country? What are the figures? Up to the end of the year 1954-55, the gross total of capital expenditure by the State was about £200,000,000 and we can add another £50,000,000 up to the end of the financial year 1955-56, making a total of £250,000,000. Now everywhere I look I see the benefits resulting from this expenditure.

Take the then net national debt. Subtract assets from liabilities, since the liabilities are greater because certain of the national debt is not covered. What do we find? We find that the net value in real terms of the national debt to-day is no greater than it was when war broke out. I like to look at real terms. I do not like the kind of philosophical buffoonery that Deputy Childers indulges in in this House. He was very careful at another period.

The Deputy is talking sheer nonsense.

That is quite normal.

I am not talking nonsense. Deputies can see the benefits all over the country. I ask one question: did the Government or the Opposition get the greater shock when they saw the recent census report? Which side of this House got the greater shock? It is, of course, sticking out a mile who got the greater shock. We are told that 200,000 people emigrated between 1951 and 1956. Was the policy that was in operation by Deputy McGilligan, when he was Minister for Finance, likely to lead to mass emigration?

120,000 went before——

The population went up by nearly 10,000 between 1946 and 1951. That is my answer. You cannot get over that.

Do not talk such nonsense.

I am talking facts. That is a fact and the Deputy knows it as well as I do.

One hundred and twenty thousand emigrated in three years.

Was Deputy MacEntee's financial policy likely to lead to that mass emigration during the last five years?

What about 1946 to 1951?

The fact is that the population went up by 10,000 between 1946 and 1951, and it fell by 55,000 during the period the Deputy's Party was in office.

(Interruptions)

He whom it hurts let him talk.

The Parliamentary Secretary is talking.

The Parliamentary Secretary is a disgrace to his university for the way he uses statistics.

I made certain statements about the long-term balance of payments problem in this country, and I am standing over those statements. They were accurate. I spoke about the change in the net external assets. Time will tell that I was right, and each year will make it more apparent that I was right. I am standing over my statements.

Mr. Lemass

Does the Minister for Finance agree with the Parliamentary Secretary?

The Minister for Finance does not agree with him at all.

The answer to that question is that the Minister for Finance is doing his work well in this country, and the Deputy knows it. One of the first statements Deputy Childers made was that the whole of our foreign savings were gone. He may not have realised it——

I did not say that.

I made a note of it at the time the Deputy said it.

I said that savings which could be used immediately for investment were not there.

Deputy Childers came around to that later, but, in the first part of his speech, he said that the whole of our foreign savings were gone. Is that part of the campaign going on at the moment that the Government is in financial difficulties? It is all part of the same campaign——

The Government is "bunched"!

The Party opposite is "bunched".

Mr. Lemass

Is the Government in financial difficulties?

Deputy Lemass knows the answer to that as well as I do. I notice the manner in which he is asking the question.

I heard Deputy Childers, on the last occasion I recollect his speaking in this House, saying that it was Clann na Poblachta and Deputy MacBride who were responsible for this whole change in our attitude towards financial matters in this country. All the more credit to Deputy MacBride if he was responsible for it, but I think, if Deputy MacBride would permit me to say it, other people had some say in the matter, too. There is no use in fulminating in this fashion when speaking of the present position.

I know statistics are of a temporary nature and can flow in and out, but I would just like to draw attention to one statistic——

Sometimes Parliamentary Secretaries blow up.

It is pretty easy to make Deputy MacEntee blow up at times. If he challenges me on that, I will prove it. If he is looking for it, I will make him blow up any time he desires it.

The statistic is this. On 31st December, last year, the external assets of our commercial banks were £220,000,000. Taking that crude statistic—I know about liabilities and all the rest—we find that on 20th March there was £224,000,000. The original figure increased by £4,000,000, and in the corresponding period of the previous year it had gone down by £10,000,000. Will anybody tell me that that does not show an improving position from the end of last year to the end of March this year? Of course the position has improved.

How is it the banks will give you no money at the moment?

I am not running the banks and I am not going to answer for them. The Deputy might be very surprised.

"Wages and salary increases without any increase in output"—is that also part of the campaign? At a time when the value of money is decreasing and the cost of living is rising, are you going to cut the real purchasing power of the wage earner? Deputy Lemass could answer that question. I do not believe he would do it in a month of Sundays.

The value of money has gone down.

We all know to what the value of money in this country is related and how it is affected.

The Taoiseach said it was futile.

I am glad the Deputy interrupted me. He talked about the "foolish and idiotic speech" of the present Taoiseach. Was it to the Institute of Bankers?

No, on a later occasion.

I only want to make a comment. The Taoiseach makes suitable statements when it suits Deputy Childers, but he made a "foolish and idiotic speech"—was it to the chambers of commerce? Now everything goes back to that. On another occasion, it all goes back to Deputy MacBride and Clann na Poblachta. Which way do you want to have it? You cannot have it both ways. Deputy MacEntee might have felt that he could have done a good job on the finances of this country, if it had not been for this pull asunder, which I have frequently referred to, when Deputy Lemass made up his mind on the subject. I know on which side I stand. I stand with Deputy Lemass on that. I want to make it quite plain that I am with him four square in the attitude of mind he had in the autumn of 1952. But it might be that, if Deputy MacEntee's policies at that time had got a bit of a run, they could have done a better job in relation to the economics and finance of this country than to have two entirely different policies pulling against each other in operation at the one time.

One reason, and one reason only, why the Opposition Party appeared to fix up the balance of payments was this. Raw material import prices, which are about half our total imports, dropped 25 per cent. in price between March, 1951, and the end of 1954. That, of course, fixed up the balance of payments; you had £25,000,000 straight away. But look at what had been done by Deputy MacEntee's financial policy, in the emigration that it created and in the condition that the population of this country went down by 55,000. The first place it impacted on me was in Ringsend in the spring of 1953. Every person in the place was going around asking: "What are you going to do? Where are you going? Go down to the labour exchange and you will find the man behind you and in front of you is going away to England." The chickens had come home to roost.

That is the safety valve of the nation. Does the Deputy not remember?

I remember it all right. Was it not lucky that I said it had been called the safety valve of the nation?

Yes, I did. I said it had been called the safety valve of the nation. I did not say that I called it the safety valve of the nation.

Deputy Blaney should allow the Parliamentary Secretary to proceed without interruption. There is a constant stream of interruptions.

The Parliamentary Secretary is speaking with his tongue in his cheek, and he knows it.

I have not got my tongue in my cheek.

The Parliamentary Secretary has not got it under control.

Order! The Parliamentary Secretary on the section.

An atmosphere of realism should be introduced. The fact of the matter is that I deeply regret that the population of this part of Ireland has gone down by 60,000 in the last five years. I had thought that the population had been fairly stabilised. I said originally that this Government had started about its work slowly and systematically. It is all right for Deputy Lemass to say, as he did the other day, that it takes this Government 100 years to have an idea. This Government is going to have plenty of ideas—the Deputy need not worry about that—particularly on the economic front, but we are not going to create difficulties for ourselves and for the country in the manner in which they were created in the autumn of 1952 here.

I do not care how much propaganda the Opposition make about our savings having been dissipated and that kind of thing. Everybody knows that the banks—and I am glad they did it— owing to the policy that they followed in this country during the year 1954-55, did make great additional quantities of capital available for industry. I would like personally, if I may express a personal view, to have seen that capital made available in the form of permanent risk capital, in the form of flotations. I would prefer that. But, at least, nobody can criticise the commercial banks for the manner in which they have served private enterprise in 1954 and 1955 in this country.

Deputy Larkin says they should be nationalised.

Deputy Childers should subside.

On the contrary, tell Deputy Larkin to subside.

And Deputy Declan Costello.

And Deputy Declan Costello. He also suggested it.

Why should I ask Deputy Larkin to subside? I am stating that when it comes to a question of choosing in this matter of economic policy, I am all with Deputy MacBride and Deputy Lemass.

Mr. Lemass

Are you for or against this section?

We have listened to a most extraordinary speech. I understand that the Parliamentary Secretary has some sort of special affiliation with the Department of Finance. I am not speaking of his previous association with that Department although one of the things he said to-day has rather shocked me. It went pretty far to a disclosure of something which came to him in the course of his ordinary duties. I do not want to develop that theme but, perhaps, it might be a warning to say that, certainly, in some of the pronouncements he has made in this House he has shocked me and I think he has done a great deal of harm to those who are the public servants in this country.

To what is the Deputy referring?

Some of the statements that the Deputy has made from time to time. He could only have knowledge of them by reason of certain official documents which he read.

I did not hear the Deputy.

That was not the point to which I was going to address myself. I have listened to the speech of the Parliamentary Secretary and I must compliment him upon it.

This is dangerous.

I think it is a very telling speech, a very telling speech indeed, but against Section 20 of this Bill because it would seem to me that the whole tenor of his remarks was devoted to proving, first of all, that there was no balance of payments problem, and secondly, that there had been no excessive realisation of assets. It was purely, as Deputy Lemass says, consequent upon the fact that the Minister for Finance and his advisers had been very badly informed as to the nature of statistics and, in fact, had misunderstood, misread and misinterpreted the figures which had been produced to them by the Central Statistics Office.

The Parliamentary Secretary said that there had been a number of conflicting financial policies pursued in this House. He referred to that which had been operated by the former Minister for Finance in the first Coalition, the present Attorney-General, the lost child in this debate. He referred to the policy that he had pursued from 1948 until 1951. He referred then to that which had been followed over the period when we were in office in 1952 to 1954; and now we have another. He implied that he did not agree with any of them, that he was taking his own stand against the world and seemed to say that there was not any serious problem confronting this Government.

If there is not, if the Minister for Finance has not got a very serious problem to deal with, why is he taking these steps which we have been told are hampering and inconveniencing all those who are engaged in one form or another of commercial enterprise in this country? If there is not this problem, why was it necessary, for instance, to take almost savage action against the Six-County nationalist papers? Why is it necessary to disorganise and dislocate our whole motor assembling industry? There is a considerable number of other trades and industries which are affected by these levies. Surely the Minister for Finance has not taken these extraordinary steps merely to punish people because they have been trying to build up some sort of native industry? Yet, it seemed to me that there was not any other conclusion to be drawn from the remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary.

There is no balance of payments problem, he assured us; we have no need to worry about our disappearing external assets; as a result of the capital expenditure which has been going on at such an extraordinary rate over the past six or seven years, we have a huge productive apparatus in this country which will enable us to face the future with confidence. I should like to know where it is.

I read the Report of the Committee on Industrial Taxation. What do I find about what has happened to the moneys which have been invested? Table 16 is on page 23 of this report. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary has noted the figures which are given there. The Table is headed "New Capital For Calendar Years 1950-54 Analysed in Reports of Central Bank." The total amount of new capital which was raised or invested in this country over that period was £112.9 million, of which the Minister for Finance took £78.4 million, Dublin and Cork Corporations £20.9 million, making in all £99.3 million, and the Industrial Credit Company, Limited, and the Agricultural Credit Corporation, Limited, between them took £2.1 million—which would represent, of course, an investment in productive enterprise—and industry and commerce between them took £8.9 million, the total being £11,000,000 out of the £113,000,000 which was raised by the people of this country and spent on enterprises of one sort or another. I can think of some of these enterprises which were productive—the expenditure on the E.S.B. will be productive, and the expenditure on Bord na Móna will, no doubt, amply repay the investment made.

The investment on enterprises which are immediately productive has been less than 10 per cent. of the whole. I wonder what conclusions the Parliamentary Secretary would draw from that. Undoubtedly we have been improving our housing conditions and trying to modernise one form of our transport system. Undoubtedly we have been putting some money into agricultural land, but where are the enterprises that will enable us to bear the burden of this capital expenditure?

What about the private investment in agriculture by the farmers?

I will not shut up. I was interrupted continuously while I was making my speech.

The fact that a Deputy is interrupted does not give another Deputy the right to interrupt. If Deputy MacEntee gives way, the Parliamentary Secretary may intervene.

Deputy MacEntee is forgetting the private increase in investment in agriculture by all the farmers of this country. That is not mentioned there at all, but Deputy MacEntee is well aware of it.

The Parliamentary Secretary is not going to get me off on that sideline. He referred to the extent to which our external assets had been realised and said that all we had to do was to go through the country and see all the splendid enterprises that were there as a result. He implied that they were giving an adequate return for the money spent on them. That is not the view being taken by a great many people. Many of us think that too little has been spent on enterprises which would give a really economic return and too much spent on things which will give us social return, but which will not enable us to meet the commitments which we have incurred in respect of them.

What does the report of the committee say? The Parliamentary Secretary said that I was forgetting the amount of private investment which had taken place. The committee, having considered the matter and pointed out that £113,000,000 was raised from the people over four years, went on to say:—

"It will be noted that in the five years, 1950 to 1954, only £8.9 million went into industry out of a total new capital of £112.9 million. Even if the greater portion of that £8.9 million went into industry, it is still a very small part of the total capital raised."

It seems to me that statement fully supports the argument which Deputy Childers made here this morning and which the Parliamentary Secretary attempted to controvert.

I merely wanted to pay a compliment to the Parliamentary Secretary for the excellent speech which he delivered against Section 20 of the Bill, and to deplore the fact that he seems to differ radically from the Minister for Finance in his approach to the problems with which the country is confronted. I deplore that fact, because the country does not want, in present circumstances, to have divided counsels in the Government, and between the Minister for Finance and the Parliamentary Secretary, who if my recollection is correct, was appointed really to hold the hands of the Minister for Finance, to be a sort of guardian angel, and to make certain that he would walk the straight and narrow path. It is a rather extraordinary thing that the Minister seems to be able to walk that path alone and that the guardian angel seems to be falling into the abyss, the depths of which Deputy MacBride plumbed so many years ago.

That is all I want to say, but I do hope, however, that if there is a division on this section, the Parliamentary Secretary will have the courage of his convictions and vote against it, because he has shown that the section is unnecessary, that the position of the country does not require the imposition of these levies, or the inconvenience and dislocation that it is causing to so many people, and the dislocation of industry which is arising from it.

I was disappointed with the reply which the Minister gave in relation to the import levy on newspapers. While a certain amount of heat was introduced into the matter, I believed that he would give us some hope that he would not retain what he confessed was an unforeseen wrong in relation to the Six-County productions.

I never said it was unforeseen.

I am being guided by something which the editor of the Derry Journal wrote in an editorial after a deputation interviewed the Minister in Dublin not so long ago. I understand that all duties are imposed for the purpose of raising revenue, prohibiting imports, or protecting home-produced goods. The Minister has never made it quite clear whether the imposition of this levy on newspapers has been for the purpose of prohibiting imports, or producing revenues, or a mixture of both. The fact remains that all duties, when imposed, are imposed only after a careful examination of the article selected. I take it that was done in this case and that the Minister saw that his levy was going to hit Irish production. When I say Irish production, I mean something that is produced in Ireland and Ireland, to me, is the 32 Counties. Anybody employed in the Six Counties, or down here, is an Irish man or woman entitled to his or her living.

Certainly the Minister did not give to the deputation which visited him here, the impression that he foresaw the effect of this levy on newspapers. I should like to quote from the editorial in the Derry Journal of the 8th instant in which it is stated:—

"Even more remarkable, in our view, is the fact that the levy is being retained in spite of the fact that it was imposed by accident."

If the Minister gave the wrong impression to the deputation, I thought he would condescend to give an explanation as to why he misled the deputation or whether the deputation was misrepresenting him. Somebody is wrong. An explanation is required from somebody very soon.

What I said was that it was not aimed primarily at Six-County newspapers.

The position, however, is that the levy is maintained and, as Deputy Blaney pointed out, we in Donegal feel we are victimised, in so far as we are being precluded from getting the views and the general outline of affairs in the Six Counties. The Minister may say that 1d. per copy will not prevent that happening, but the important fact is that it is such an imposition as will quite possibly eventually put these people out of circulation in Donegal entirely.

The poor people who buy the provincial papers will naturally switch over to something which, perhaps, is undesirable and if Deputy Blaney spoke very harshly regarding what he suspected was the reason for it, I would point out that the Minister's attitude and action in that respect have left him open to that suspicion, particularly in so far as he has not made any effort since to redress the situation he himself now agrees is undesirable as a result of the general imposition of these levies.

I appeal earnestly and seriously to the Minister to reconsider the whole situation. We are not interested in the Derry Journal alone. We are quite anxious at all times to get the views of all sections in the Six Counties. The organs of the Protestant element in the Six Counties have been circulating in Donegal for centuries past, just as the nationalist organs which some of us were more accustomed to purchase. I think the Minister should at this stage give some consideration to the possibility of redressing this matter.

Papers like the Derry Journal are already under a certain handicap. The number of pages they use is laid down in restrictions governing the publication of newsprint in Great Britain and the Six Counties. They are already restricted to a certain number of pages. That was itself a sufficient handicap without this other final imposition. The Derry People, the Fermanagh Herald and the Ulster Herald are three papers which circulate in the Twenty-Six Counties and I am afraid they will be seriously hit as a result of this imposition and will eventually have to withdraw from circulation and that means going out of production.

I do not think the Minister is desirous that that should happen. I appeal to the Minister at this stage, in spite of any ulterior motives which may have been attributed to him and in spite of what may have originally prompted him to take the actions he did, to reconsider the whole position, in view of the undesirable results which have followed and try to bring about some amelioration of the matter.

I should like to point out to the Deputy who interrupted when Deputy Blaney was speaking and who made reference to the circulation of the People's Press that we have in Donegal the Donegal Democrat which has the largest circulation of any paper circulating in the county. I merely point that out to show that in so far as I am concerned in the south west and south of Donegal the action the Minister has taken, whether intentionally or otherwise, will not force me or my supporters to read the paper referred to.

I do not want to make any reference to the statement by the Parliamentary Secretary other than to say that many people who will read it to-morrow will be amazed. I can understand why the Minister for Finance left the House when he began to speak. He proposed a theory in economics and fiscal policy which we have not heard since Deputy MacBride ceased making the case that, by a few strokes of the pen, all our economic problems would be solved and prosperity would be ensured. That is a bad feeling to create and I do not for one moment think the Minister agreed with one word of what he said. The Parliamentary Secretary went so far as to say that we have no financial problems whatever, although, when Deputy Lemass asked him whether we had, he declined to reply. All these impositions are bringing the people down to the level of paupers and when they read what the Parliamentary Secretary said they will begin to lose confidence in democratic Government of any kind and also in the Coalition Government.

Question put.
The Committee divided:—Tá, 65; Níl, 56.

  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Beirne, John.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Carew, John.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Deering, Mark.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Finucane, Patrick.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Glynn, Brendan M.
  • Hession, James M.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Larkin, James.
  • Lindsay, Patrick J.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacBride, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Morrissey, Dan.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Carroll, Maureen.
  • O'Connor, Kathleen.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Hara, Thomas.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Roddy, Joseph.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Childers, Erskine H.
  • Colbert, Michael.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Davern, Michael J.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kelly, Edward.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lahiffe, Robert.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • McGrath, Patrick.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Malley, Donough.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies P.S. Doyle and Mrs. O'Carroll; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Hilliard.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn