Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Jun 1956

Vol. 158 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Gaeltacht Services (Resumed).

Mr. S. Collins

As I said last evening, the encouragement that emanates from the success of the new ventures through the Gaeltacht Services plan should find extension in more enterprise and in a more thorough and exhaustive market research. I had said to the Minister that we in West Cork in the Gaeltacht areas were a significantly neglected stepchild of this section of departmental activity. I find no excuse for such obvious neglect, because as I said, if only for one factor alone, and that the significant part played by that area in the achievement of our liberty, we should get special consideration. Allied to that is the fact that abundant in these Gaeltacht areas in South-West Cork is that ready intelligence that typifies the area. The Minister should have no difficulty in extending into that area some of the schemes sponsored by this branch.

Further than that, there still exists in these areas the hereditary residuum of various crafts, particularly lacemaking, and I want to end on this note: While the Minister may say to me: "But we gave you a new industry in Ballingeary," I would reply: "Is fada a bhíomar ag feitheamh leis." We have been waiting a long time for something, and I want an assurance from the Minister that that is only an earnest of the expansion contemplated, because if we are serious about the preservation of the people with the full spoken knowledge of our language in the area and environment of their birth, we must get something into these areas that will at least give them an economic living or the prospects ultimately of an economic living in those areas.

We cannot pay more than lip service to the revival of the Irish language and to the preservation of Irish culture and tradition by any other means than by effective effort to do something within the areas concerned. As I said earlier the most significant part of the tragedy of the recent census of population is that the major depopulation is taking place in those very areas which are the spearhead and the vital factor in the preservation of our language and our Gaelic customs.

I appear critical; I do not think the criticism is really directed specifically against any Minister. I criticise what I term bluntly the lack of imagination and enterprise and effort in getting industry into the Gaeltacht areas. I do it not in a spirit of criticism of the Minister, but in the hope that we may ulimately get somebody to face up to the magnitude of the problem and stop this miserable scratching on the surface of a vital national problem, one that goes to the very roots of our cultural foundation.

If that is done, the Minister with the earnest of success that I have described regarding certain marine products development, has scope to speculate in expansion, and mark you, any significant effort by Gaeltacht Services to do something to give much-needed encouragement to people within those areas will be welcomed, because these people at present, despite all the talk and despite all the various suggestions that have been made, feel that the Gaeltacht areas are doomed and that we here in the National Parliament will wake up to do something for these areas when the very cause for which we strive will have been defeated by the continued exodus and decay of the population in these areas. If 'twere done when 'tis done, then 'twere well 'twere done quickly.

Mr. J. Brennan

Ba mhaith liom cursai an mheastachain seo a phlé go hiomlán as Gaeilge ach ós rud é nach bhfuil an oiread sin taithí agam i labhairt na Gaeilge leanfaidh mé i mBéarla.

I should like to speak entirely in Irish on the subject, but, like many other Deputies, I am not a practised speaker of the language and therefore I would prefer to make my remarks in the medium of the foreign language. This is probably the last year in which we will have Gaeltacht Services as a separate Vote before this House. At least we expect that, with the establishment of the new Ministry, we will have a co-ordination of all the various sections or bodies which heretofore have been working in their own way for the benefit of the people of the Gaeltacht, for the expansion of the Gaeltacht and the preservation of the native language. It is only fitting on this occasion that we should pay tribute to this section that has been dealing with this branch of Gaeltacht industries. By and large, I think they have done a good job, as the Estimate shows the House on this occasion. The officials of that section have always been helpful; they have been particularly courteous and attentive to the Deputies who had occasion to visit them at any time. I think it is but right that we should pay that tribute to this section, in view of the fact that I may have some criticism to offer as I go on.

I think the Gaeltacht Services Section of the Department of Lands have not heretofore regarded themselves as the people on whom rested the entire responsibility of employing at home the people of the Gaeltacht. In view of the alarming situation revealed by the recent census figures, which really indicate a crisis as far as these areas are concerned, I think some section of some Department, if not the new Ministry itself, must make a new effort, an all-out attempt, to improve and expand services for the improvement of the Gaeltacht and the welfare of the people who live therein.

Whether the Gaeltacht Services Section of the Department of Lands are incorporated in the new Ministry or not, I think that section would be a suitable body to be used as a spearhead of any all-out drive to bring about better conditions in the Gaeltacht areas and finally to arrest the flow of emigration from these areas. There is much they can do. Like every other section, their main limitation is that of finance. Give them the goodwill of the other Departments, particularly of the Department of Finance, the blessing of this House in the way of money, and the necessary legislation to further their work, and they will go far. I believe they should be brought to regard themselves as the people on whom rests the greatest responsibility for furthering the work they are doing to a stage where they would do something more comprehensive for the Gaeltacht areas generally.

What has been done simply proves what can be done. While the work this section has done has been done well, it could be done much better. Let us hope that some of the projects of the past are to be regarded only as pilot projects which will be expanded in the future. While discussing the future activities of Gaeltacht Services, I would suggest that when an industry, sponsored by Gaeltacht Services, reaches a stage where it is capable of standing on its own feet, it should be handed over to private enterprise, to be run by a public company which would be in a position to make it a greater success than it would be as a State-sponsored body under Civil Service management. Those of us who come from the Gaeltacht areas do not grudge the extra revenue which has to be raised each year to finance these projects. We believe it is well-spent money and, if we criticise it, we believe we are entitled to do so in order to improve the management and better the economical supervision of the projects concerned.

Take for example the tweed industry. I do not want to take the marine products which are still in their infancy and which should be given a chance. Take the tweed industry that is being carried on by Gaeltarra Éireann very successfully in Donegal. The same industry is being carried on by many private individuals who play an important part in giving employment to the people in the same way as Gaeltarra Éireann is doing in relation to its part of the industry. However, it is significant that while private enterprise interested in tweed production is paying an excess profit tax, Gaeltarra Éireann must come to the Exchequer each year for subventions on its trading account. I do not know what the position is in respect of the current year, but I do know, as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, that there was a very heavy loss in its trading account last year. I asked a question, in the course of scrutinising the accounts, as to what the position for the current year was likely to be and I was informed that we could again anticipate a loss. The Minister will correct me if that is not so.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Blowick)

That is correct, but I feel sure the Deputy is aware of the reason for the loss.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am aware of many reasons. At one time, when I was not a member of this House, I believed the losses of Gaeltarra Éireann were due to the fact that the trading account and the capital account were given as one.

Mr. Blowick

No. The real cause of the trouble is that Gaeltarra Éireann has to supervise a huge number of small industries scattered all over the West. A private concern would naturally gather all of these under one roof with a consequent lowering of administrative costs.

Mr. J. Brennan

The Minister's explanation is helpful enough in a way but I am afraid it does not cover the whole situation. I am speaking subject to correction when I say that those things which showed and do show profits when carried on by private enterprise do not show an overall profit at the end of the financial year when carried on under Gaeltacht Services.

Mr. Blowick

We do not go in for profit. The outdoor workers get the price we collect for the goods, less the administrative costs. What would be a profit to a private concern goes to the workers in our case. I do not want to interrupt the Deputy but I should point out that we are not a profit-making concern. We do not go in for profit and neither do we think it would be desirable to do so.

Mr. J. Brennan

If Gaeltarra Éireann is not a profit-making concern then, in cases like the production of tweed, I would expect it would not dip too deeply into the taxpayers' pocket at the end of the year.

Mr. Blowick

The Deputy cannot have it both ways.

Mr. J. Brennan

We have the situation where private enterprise carries on a similar type of industry, employing a large number of people. They point out that they are competing with Gaeltarra Éireann, who, at the end of the year, can go to the Exchequer and recoup their year's losses. Granted they did not intend to be a profit-making industry. If the tweed industry which is flourishing when conducted by private enterprise, must in the case of Gaeltarra Éireann seek financial assistance year by year from the Exchequer, then how can the people who are conducting the same business by private enterprise have to pay excess profits tax on their manufacturing concerns?

Certainly I understood that the real reason for the coming into being of Gaeltarra Éireann in the first instance was to create industries in a place where no other private enterprise was likely to step in, and in spite of the fact that they might be losing money in pursuing those industries for the benefit of the people and the areas where they are located. I quite well understand that but I do say that in the case of the tweed industry it could be more usefully conducted now by private enterprise. Gaeltarra Éireann has done the useful work of sponsoring that industry—setting up all the factories, spinning mills and so forth. The industry has now reached a stage where it can successfully be divorced from all the incumbrances of overhead charges, a rather expensive staff and perhaps a multiplicity of inspectors or supervisory officers, who could then pursue some other type of industry that is not getting the attention it needs from private enterprise.

Mr. Blowick

These industries would be allowed to die in the hands of private individuals, I believe.

Mr. J. Brennan

Private enterprise is not allowing much of this industry to die at the moment. The point I am making is that when it has reached a stage where it can no longer be regarded as an industry which private enterprise would not pursue, it should be taken away from Gaeltarra Éireann who could then use their time, staff, energy and finance to organise other industries that are dormant and will not be organised by private enterprise. The successful ones should be left to be run by people who are already running these industries most successfully in the country.

Mr. Blowick

There is at least one great advantage that private industry has and that is that they can have their factory and their industry under one roof with one supervisor. In order to bring these industries out to scattered areas it is necessary to establish a number of units that a private person would group under one roof. Each one of those units must have a supervisor and then you have the overhead costs, transport and material costs, and so on.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

How many units have you?

Mr. Blowick

There would be 62 or 63 all told. They are scattered all over the country from Cork to Donegal, all kinds of industries.

Mr. J. Brennan

I do not want to enter into an argument with the Minister on this question of the industries which are capable of standing on their own feet but I do wish to put forward to the House the suggestion that the tweed industry is one which is now being carried on by people in Donegal and elsewhere who have a tradition of centuries of experience behind them and who are making an outstanding success of their own concerns. They have to compete with Gaeltarra Éireann who have the taxpayers at their back. I would say that it is only reasonable that such industries should be handed over to private enterprise and be carried on with the same success as private enterprise has achieved in Donegal in regard to tweed.

While we may deprecate competition in industry on the one hand, we also realise that it possibly has tended to create the necessary stimulant to making industry successful even though it is run by private enterprise. If Gaeltarra Éireann have set a standard in the payment of wages I would say that in so far as they set the standard that is very good, but they could unduly depress the activities of private concerns by undue competition. By that means they could put out of work many of the people—and there are literally hundreds of them—employed in Donegal in industry, sponsored and very well run and organised by private enterprise. These are people who have gone out to America and established offices in the cities there. They have established a most remunerative dollar-earning business for the past number of years and I think it is only fair that there should be competition in such cases. The only thing I would be apprehensive about is the expansion of private enterprise if——

Mr. Blowick

Before the Deputy leaves the question of the tweed industry I would ask him to consider this. Supposing these industries established by Gaeltacht Services were handed over to private enterprise in the morning, does he not think that the first thing they would do would be to kill all the small outlying industries that give employment in backward areas for which these industries were established? Would they not, in the Deputy's opinion, collect all those under one roof for the sake of cutting costs, bearing in mind also that if Gaeltacht Services has one advantage, that they can come to the taxpayers' pocket, the private concern has a bigger advantage against that about which we do not hear anything but about which I will speak when I am replying?

Mr. J. Brennan

I would not like the Minister in any way to discourage the very successful enterprise we have in the tweed producing industry in Donegal.

Mr. Blowick

On the contrary, I am very proud of it and I would be the first to help it if I could.

Mr. J. Brennan

We are very cognisant of the fact that private enterprise, side by side with Gaeltarra Éireann, is doing a good job and we are only desirous of seeing these industries expanded. All of them employ weavers in their own homes and the tendency recently is to bring them under one roof for better supervision and control. The production of cloth at the moment is a very highly skilled business and it is only with the best trained weavers and proper supervision that the most expansive market we have under our control can be maintained and further expanded. But private enterprise is successfully carrying on this work. We have far-flung interests; the looms are allocated to the homes of the weavers; the goods are collected and the new work allocated in return. This is one of the most important things that has gone to maintain people in the Gaeltacht of Donegal who would otherwise be along with their thousands of brothers and sisters in the industrial cities in England.

I believe we should take the tide at the flow and make the most of the opportunity that is presented. Sound foundations have been laid and whether we are going to proceed by means of private enterprise or by the further extension of Gaeltarra Éireann, let us proceed to expand anyhow, and expand quickly, because the need for it never was more obvious or evident in Donegal.

I have a further appeal to make. There has been a good deal of talk here over the years about decentralisation. I suggest that an office which deals with Gaeltacht industries should itself be located in the Gaeltacht. I know the Minister's reply to that will be that Dublin is the centre from which all the various branches are administered and that it is the natural centre through which to carry on the sales organisation. Much of the costs incurred could be eradicated by having the Gaeltacht Services Branch of the Department of Lands with headquarters in Glencolumcille, Ardara or elsewhere in Donegal. In that way there would be immediate supervision over the major portion of the work; less supervision would be necessary and, therefore, fewer people needed.

At the same time the moneys required to pay the executive staff would be spent in the areas where it is most needed, the areas to which I claim it rightly belongs. There would be a better grip of the needs of the industry in that immediate control than there is in the present system of remote control. I strongly advocate the decentralisation of those sections of the Civil Service directly concerned with Gaeltacht industries, particularly the decentralisation of Gaeltacht Services.

There is a possibility that there is undue supervision. The Gaeltacht Services staff are so imbued with the idea of strict supervision that they have perhaps carried it too far. A story told to me by a factory worker, while it may be an exaggeration, will illustrate the point. We shall call him "John." I asked him: "John, how is the factory going now?""Och," said he, "Very well. This was a good week. We had only 11 inspectors from Dublin this week."

Mr. Blowick

That is about the fortieth time I have heard that story since I came into this House in 1943. I think he was not the only John who said that.

Mr. J. Brennan

It is probably an exaggeration, but it serves to illustrate the likelihood of overlapping in supervision. Some of the people may have been Board of Works officials concerned with maintenance, expansion or the installation of plant. It is always assumed that they all come for the one purpose—as inspectors from Gaeltarra Éireann. But I think it is correct to say that an inspector is not an unusual sight in these industries.

I would like now to make my annual plea in relation to the tweed industry. I think most Deputies have made the same plea in the past. Donegal tweed is now so popular and so fashionable that it can be sold in competition with any tweed anywhere. Some Deputies mentioned in the course of the debate that spurious tweeds were being sold as Donegal tweeds. That may be so, but genuine Donegal tweed can stand on its own anywhere. It is a mistake for people to refer to it as Donegal homespun. Donegal tweed, as we know it now, has little or no relation to the Donegal homespun we knew in the past. Donegal homespun was made from black-faced wool, spun in the cottages and woven on the looms in the homes or in the factories. That was 100 per cent. Donegal homespun. It is now only produced for use in the home. Donegal tweed qua Donegal tweed is made from machine spun wool and woven in Donegal. The wool is much finer.

That brings me to a point with relation to the homespun industry. With the collapse of the homespuns, it became difficult to find a market for the black-faced wool other than the export trade or the Dublin merchants. We would like to see the spinning wheels in use again, producing 100 per cent. Donegal homespun. It is not, of course, suitable for the now fashionable fine tweeds, but it is suitable for many other things, such as rugs, blankets and upholstery. In fact, in some parts of the Six Counties magnificent furniture covering is being produced, manufactured almost entirely from homespun black-faced wool. I would have expected that Gaeltacht Services would have been alive to the possibility of getting production of that kind under way. If the Minister succeeds now in finding a use for the black-faced wool, we will be prepared to say that not only is Gaeltacht Services jogging along with a successful report each year, but it is really awake and doing something worth while for the depressed Gaeltacht areas. The time was never more opportune. The necessity was never greater. I urge upon the Minister that he should find the necessary capital now to establish even a pilot industry along those lines. It would be a great boon to these areas.

If Gaeltacht Services will undertake something of that nature, having first decentralised the office and come amongst the black sheep of Donegal to study conditions, they will then have a more realistic approach and a better understanding of economic conditions. I doubt if many people here understand what the conditions are along the western and north-western seaboard. I have often thought that, if they did understand them more fully, they would be more enthusiastic in their support of projects which would help to keep our people at home, living happily and contentedly in their own areas. Thousands of houses which once brought up the best families that could be reared in any country, as was proved by the way these people distinguished themselves when they went abroad, are now standing roofless. In the past year the number has increased considerably.

My next point is a parochial one. I would like the Minister to tell us when he is replying why the extension of the Gaeltacht depot, as we know it, or the lace centre at Bruckless has not been proceeded with before now. I have referred to this repeatedly and before Deputy Derrig left office I had hoped to see it accomplished. The matter had then been decided and we had hoped to see it pressed to fruition in the shortest possible time.

One would like to see every single unit expanded to give more employment and to help in the balance of payments position by adding to our exports. I think in the case of Bruckless there was some trouble over the water supply. Now that the public water supply has come within easy reach I would suggest that the Minister press for the further extension of the pipe line. We in Donegal County Council are already pressing it and I can assure the Minister that anything we can do to ensure the matter is expedited will be done. At this stage, I believe that the water supply can hardly be given as a reason for holding up the extension of the depot because the depot, even if it were started to-morrow, would hardly be completed before we would have the pipe line extended from Dunkineely to Bruckless.

We in Donegal feel that, while the marine products industry may be making satisfactory progress, there not enough activity on our long coastline in that respect. I would like to hear from the Minister, when he is winding up this debate, what plans there are for the further extension of the marine products industry. The raw material that is available is literally being washed in by the sea, but it is allowed to lie and rot on the shore. For the initial stages in the development of that industry the Exchequer has to come to the aid of the industry. Nobody can point out, as has been pointed out in this House in regard to the tweed industry, that private enterprise can do it better or that there is no need to ask for assistance from the taxpayer. This is an industry that will have to be operated by a body like Gaeltacht Services. It is an industry that certainly is adaptable to the western seaboard since the raw material is there in plenty.

One would expect, now that the absolute necessity for extending industries in that area has been established, that that industry would be pursued with even greater vigour. We have many schemes designed for the benefit of industry in the Gaeltacht areas. The Undeveloped Areas Act, which was passed here in our term of office, was a genuine attempt to decentralise industry. If it has not succeeded to the extent to which it should, that does not take from its importance or usefulness and the very genuine desire behind it. No matter what way the Undeveloped Areas Act operates, Gaeltacht Services have established themselves as a section of our services that is creating industries in those areas and is charged with the responsibility for doing so. I think we should look to that section for greater expansion in the future, and the Minister should put it under the obligation to provide all the industries it possibly can that would be likely to succeed in the Gaeltacht areas.

Mr. McMenamin

The problem arising on this Estimate has been debated down the years on practically the same lines. There has been practically no change in the Estimate this year except in one request. There is an item of £6,000 to set up a new accounting system. Though it is the only new item in the Estimate, it is a long-needed one and I am hoping that, when this system is adopted, we will have a profit and loss balance sheet submitted to the House.

A hubbub has been created in this House, by everybody who spoke, in regard to the recent census returns. It makes me sad to reflect that it is only in the year 1956, apparently, that Deputies are waking up to the fact that grave and serious depopulation has been taking place in the Gaeltacht areas. That is nothing new. That has been going on for the past 25 years. It began gradually, and it became progressively worse until the point of decline was reached after which comes the final collapse.

Some 20 years ago this Department, and the way it was being run, engaged my attention. I felt it was essential that something drastic would have to be done. I felt that I would risk my own political reputation and existence —because that is a small matter—in order to focus attention on it at once. In my opinion the tweed industry, which is the principal industry in the Gaeltacht, was being ruined by the Department, and any effort being made to help the Gaeltacht areas and to preserve them was only leading to ruin. I think the only person who defended me at the time was Deputy Dillon.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.