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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Jul 1956

Vol. 159 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Office of the Minister for Justice.

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That a sum not exceeding £63,730 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1957, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, including certain other Services administered by that Office.

When progress was reported, I was dealing with the problem in relation to the dimming devices on cars which do not have to be dimmed. Another problem which I should like to raise is that in relation to rear lights on cycles. I know that if a Guard holds up a cyclist for not having a rear light, that Guard is supposed to be a tyrant. All motorists have the same terrible experience of meeting the gentleman at night who will not dim his lights and of fearing that there is a cyclist in front who may not have a rear light. I would much prefer to meet a cyclist without a headlight than to pass a cyclist who has no rear light. In spite of the very high prices people must pay for new bicycles, the rear light on these machines is most unsatisfactory. While the Minister answered a question in this connection in the Dáil some weeks ago, this matter should be taken up with the manufacturers to see that, for the very small cost involved, they will provide these new machines with an adequate rear light device.

Year after year, we have been speaking on the problem of parking which now affects not alone Dublin but many provincial towns. While it may be said that this matter is more appropriate to the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, I believe that, since the Garda are involved, it is only through the fullest measure of co-operation between the Departments of Justice and Local Government and the local authorities that we will solve this urgent problem. With the enormous amount of car traffic on the roads for some time back, we are reaching a stage of complete chaos in many of the provincial towns, where, because both sides are being used for parking, nobody can traverse the main streets. I ask the Minister to examine this question and see what progress is being made in relation to it.

Deputy Kennedy spoke on the closing of barracks, and I fully agree with him. Very often in many areas you will hear people expressing the wish that the Gardaí were 100 miles away, but when it is suggested that a local barracks should be closed down, you have everyone of importance in the parish rushing to the local Deputy who must call on the Minister in this connection. It seems that suddenly the people have become afraid that a group of Mau Mau will come and attack them in their little village if their local Gardaí are transferred. There are many areas in rural Ireland where the people are decent, God-fearing and sufficiently law abiding to be able to continue without having a barracks in their village. Therefore, whether it is for economy or other purposes, where the Minister considers it advisable to close down a local barracks, the House should give due consideration to that aspect rather than plead on behalf of people who want a man in uniform amongst them.

In regard to the question of motorcycle patrols mentioned by Deputy Blaney, I am convinced that, while it may not apply to Dublin City or Cork City, the system of patrol cars going around has been a complete failure, because clearly visible on the hood of the car is the warning "Garda". It is for all the world like a Garda calling on a local publican and saying: "I am a Garda and I intend to raid this house." If any drivers wish to be careless or negligent, if they have good sight and particularly on straight roads, they will see the Garda car a long way off and suddenly become very good boys. The proper approach would be to improve the system of motorcycle patrols, because a Garda can easily pull his machine into the side of the road and keep an eye on some of these would-be killers who are travelling our main and country roads. That, in my opinion, would produce more beneficial results than the Garda motor cars.

Another matter to which reference has been made by many members is the number of drunks behind the steering-wheel of cars on the road. Instead of the situation improving, I am afraid it is becoming worse. We have the gentry who leave the city and enter a public house as bona fide travellers, stay there for a few hours and, when they leave at about 12 o'clock and meet anyone on the road, act as if that person had no right to be there. We all realise the benefit of refresher courses and even politicians must go through such courses. Each and every one of us at various times must go through an election which can be termed a refresher course, and if we do not make the grade, that is too bad for us. It would be very helpful if the members of the judiciary had refresher courses in relation to the problems—and they are very new problems—which confront us in respect of these drivers.

I have no intention of speaking of any individual case, but it is well the Minister should know that the average person in certain parts of Ireland, owing to certain recent happenings, is wondering whether he is safe on the roads at all and whether it is safer for a driver to have an accident while drunk than to have an accident when he is sober. Every time I read the decisions in a certain court I say: "God bless that district justice." It is true he is a Cork man and I refer to District Justice Gordon Hurley in Clare, who is a credit to his profession.

Names should not be mentioned.

I have mentioned it now. I am delighted to see people, when they are in a position to dispense justice, dispensing it in a proper manner. I would say to the Minister that such refresher courses are long overdue so that there will be no disparity between one part of the country and another. Whether we have Garda barracks closed or open, if we continue dispensing justice as it has been done on different occasions up to the present, I am afraid the people in this country must adopt some other system of protection for themselves on the roads or must get off the roads completely.

We have every reason to thank the Garda Síochána and our courts of law for the very peaceful civilian life enjoyed in the Republic by our people. From the Minister's statement, it seems that one of the problems requiring immediate attention is our road traffic problem. In the Minister's statement, it was indicated that more than half the number of prosecutions issued during the past 12 months was in respect of road traffic offences. In fact, the Minister pointed out that there was reduction in other classes of offences.

The Garda, in my opinion, have been too lenient and reasonable towards road users, particularly in Dublin City and in the more populous districts. I was glad to see recently that the Garda are beginning to examine the possibility of coping with the very difficult problem which is arising in the city regarding the control of all kinds of traffic.

Not alone have the Guards the problem of controlling motor and horse vehicular traffic in the city, but of course they also have the duty of dealing with cyclists and careless pedestrians. Much of the obstruction in city traffic is being caused either by jay-walkers or by cyclists who are doing nothing less than wriggling in and out through the traffic, a danger to themselves and to other people desiring to use the streets. It has become so bad that it is even suggested that before long motor users will find it necessary to leave their vehicles somewhere outside the city and come into the city on foot or by means of public transport in order to get through our streets.

Our Guards have the power to control and manage traffic. It is a very big problem and has got into a very confused state in this city, but I feel myself that if they are not so lenient and are more strict with all classes of road users we will before long have order restored and have a situation where there will not be the prolonged standstills we have at the rush hours at present, particularly on Church holidays. The country people very often come into the city to do business on Church holidays, and the result is that the existing traffic system in the city is unable to cope with the much larger volume of traffic that has to be dealt with on such days. It compares only with the rush hours we see on various days of the week here.

It is regrettable that we have not yet a system of driving licence tests. At the present time any motor vehicle owner, or one who does not own a motor vehicle, can purchase a driving licence and get into a vehicle whether he knows how to drive it or not, whether he is proved to be competent or not. There are plenty of persons who know how to drive motor vehicles but are not efficient and competent to manage them. I feel that the Department of Justice would be doing a good day's work if they ensured that tests would be applied before driving licences are issued.

In many cases, too, we have vehicles on the road which are not road-worthy, which are, as is said, without a screed of a brake. They have bad steering, and some of them have tyres in a very bad state, and generally, they are vehicles which could not pass as being road-worthy. Still we have the situation where those vehicles are allowed to use the roads and cause considerable damage to other traffic and other road users. I hope that something will be done regarding the use of vehicles on the roads which are not fit to be used on them. I know that the Civic Guards have power to stop a vehicle, get into it and test it, and in fact they do frequently exercise those powers in relation to commercial vehicles. But there are many private motor vehicles which are very badly equipped to use the roads on which there is so much traffic.

We have noticed with pleasure in recent years the very firm attitude adopted towards drivers of motor vehicles who have been proved to be intoxicated. However, I feel that there should be uniformity in the matter of the penalties imposed, because in some areas you will have a court imposing penalties which may be unreasonably severe and which are certainly very much more severe than the penalties imposed in other courts.

Drivers of motor vehicles, especially persons who own and use them in connection with their livelihood, whose licence is suspended for a period of 12 months and even longer, suffer a very severe punishment. I feel that such long suspensions should not be imposed on those people. It may be that the person who was accidentally found to be intoxicated has not done any harm though he could have done harm, and very often he has to suffer the same punishment and penalty as a person who, in fact, did harm in driving a motor vehicle. The period of suspension of driving licences should be much less than six or 12 months in many cases. It is very difficult, I know, when a decision has been reached regarding a period for which a licence ought to be suspended, to alter that decision. There have to be very good grounds, and usually the case put forward is not sufficient to have that decision altered, and the person who has had his licence suspended for a specific period must put up with such suspension.

I am advocating that there should be such a thing as a degree of punishment in that respect, because even a month's suspension of a driving licence is a very severe penalty for some people who would require to use a motor vehicle in connection with their livelihood. Most of those people who are found intoxicated and are punished will never be caught again and will never be drunk again when using a motor vehicle. Having got the first punishment, it is unlikely that they will be so careless as to use a motor vehicle again under the influence of drink, but when they offend only once, maybe, in a lifetime, they have to suffer a very severe penalty and lose their employment as a result although, as I say, they have not caused any injury or damage. They may have been found in a position in which they were going to use the vehicle, perhaps having stepped into it about to drive home. That is why I advocate that all suspension of licences should not be for such a long period as 12 or six months, because the punishment would be just as bad for certain people if it was only one or two months' suspension.

In connection with the use of rear reflectors on bicycles, I feel that we are rather lax in this country in not insisting on a proper rear lighting saystem. In Northern Ireland and, I believe, in Great Britain an actual light has to be shown on the rear of the bicycle, and a rear reflector is not sufficient. But here even the rear reflectors which are provided are so small and put in such a position on the bicycle that any kind of mud or lack of cleaning leaves the reflector useless in connection with motor traffic. At present, especially in connection with dazzling lights on a straight road, the cyclist is in a very dangerous position if his rear reflector is not reflecting properly.

I feel, too, that the courts should be more strict with people crossing the streets. There are bylaws there which could be imposed by Dublin Corporation at any time requiring people who wish to cross the streets to cross at certain places. If any of us take the trouble to look up O'Connell Street, or any of the main thoroughfares here in the City of Dublin, he will see people stepping out from the footpath anywhere and everywhere along the street, all anxious to get to the other side, instead of going to a recognised crossing and achieving their object of getting to the other side by using that crossing. If they did that, there would be less confusion and a freer flow of traffic.

Mention was made of tinkers and some control of their activities. There may be some sympathy for tinkers because it may be held that they are harmless and more or less abandoned. Let us look for a moment at the other side of the picture. Many of them are robbers and thieves. They go out at night to rob. They open farmers' gates and put their horses in to graze on the fresh grass and they take the horses out before the farmer is up in the morning to catch them.

There are also robbers and thieves who do not live in caravans.

Some control should be exercised over tinkers. After all, these people are not completely abandoned. When a tinker reaches 70 years of age, he can claim an old age pension from the State. Possibly the widows are entitled to widows' pensions. They come to the State for a certain measure of assistance and, if they wish to live as ordinary citizens and make some contribution towards the maintenance of the State, then some measure of control should be exercised over their activities.

They are notorious for spoiling annual festivals. These festivals are held in many areas. As soon as a festival is about to take place, all roads leading to the festival are packed with tinkers and their caravans, coming in to cause annoyance to the patrons by their begging activities. Organisers of these festivals take a great deal of trouble to make these events a success and to popularise them. Their aim is naturally to get as many people as they can to attend, but these people are so annoyed by the importunities of these tinkers that the festival is spoilt both for them and the organisers.

I was disappointed some years ago to discover that the Department of Justice had decided to lower the physical requirements for recruitment to the Garda Síochána. That was a retrograde step. It is desirable that the physical standards should be the highest possible and it is only right and proper that we should keep them as high as possible. There are numbers of very fine young men who are anxious to enter the force. When we have an opportunity of picking the cream of these, we should, I maintain, keep the physical standards as high as possible, within the limits in which we can get a sufficient number to man the force.

I was glad to see that there is a move at last to reduce the number of stations. That, of course, will be a long-term policy. If we tried to bring about a reduction too rapidly, we would definitely cause hardship to many of the members who are located in different parts of the country. As a long-term policy, it is highly desirable. I agree with Deputy Desmond that the community in general interferes too much with the Department of Justice in relation to the location of stations and the transfer of personnel in the different areas. I think the present policy can be implemented slowly and carefully, without hurting anybody and still achieving the ultimate object.

There are mixed opinions in relation to the closing of Garda stations. The present policy may be a good one, though I personally have not seen very much difference. If the barracks are not required in small rural communities, possibly it is better to centralise the force, though, in the past, I have advocated that that is an unwise step. However, I have more or less an open mind on the matter.

I object to the policy in so far as it entails a reduction in numbers. When we remember that further closings may take place in the future and, at the same time, there will be a reduction in numbers, it is only right that we should have second thoughts in the matter. We all know that, during the emergency and since the emergency, extra duties have been thrown on to the Garda Síochána. They have undertaken these extra duties willingly and they have carried them out efficiently. Despite that extra work, we now find that it is proposed to reduce the numbers rather than increase them. The results of that policy are to be seen everywhere. It is unfortunate that the time of these men in the villages, towns and cities should be taken up with road traffic cases and breaches of the licensing laws. These two items occupy a large percentage of the time of the Gardaí, with the result that there is no time left in which to enforce all the other laws and regulations.

In addition to that, the Gardaí have to help the Department of Social Welfare, the Department of Local Government and the Department of Agriculture. The compilation of statistics for the Department of Agriculture is thrown over on the Gardaí. The filling of forms for the Department of Social Welfare in relation to unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance is thrown over on the Gardaí. Various other duties have fallen upon them. Yet, we find now that the Minister and his Department have adopted a policy of reduction in numbers. That is not as it should be. The numbers should be increased rather than reduced.

When a large number of retirals took place recently, the Department decided to recruit a certain number to fill the vacancies. When the change of Government took place, that number was reduced and young men who did the examination and who expected, from public statements of policy, that a certain number would be required, found, after the lapse of a year, that they would have to sit for another examination all over again. Not alone had they passed the most recent examination, but they came well within the number required. They were notified, however, that not more than 160 would be taken, that they would have to do the examination all over again. Even then, there was not very much hope that they would be successful because the number required this year would be very small.

With regard to those who sat the last exam and especially with regard to those after 160th place and up to 250th place, a grave injustice was done. The least the Minister could do would be to see to it that those who passed should not be required to undergo a further exam. It is fortunate that, of that number, only a very small percentage—I think about nine candidates —will, on the occasion of the next exam, be over the age limit. I maintain that none of them should have to do any exam as, after all, they have already passed and qualified in every way. Subject to the usual medical test, they should be allowed to become members of the Garda Síochána and there should be no cutting down of the force.

I have in mind one thing that is neglected—not through any fault of the Gardaí but just because their other duties are so numerous. School attendance enforcement is practically a dead letter. No Garda barracks can take two or three Gardaí on a particular day and send them out to the schools in the Garda sub-district. It just cannot be done. Some of the schools are situated in remote areas and in most Garda districts there are, say, five or six schools and about an equal number of Gardaí. Therefore, proper school attendance supervision and check-up cannot be carried out, with the result that the enforcement of the School Attendance Acts in most areas is a dead letter. It is not enough for a Garda to go to a school once every six months and take a few cases to court. The fines are very small and it will be another six months before offenders are hauled over the coals again, or possibly longer, which makes a farce of the whole Act.

In order to have the School Attendance Acts enforced properly, it is necessary to have regular visits by the Gardaí to each individual school and a warning to the defaulters. I agree with the Minister's policy that, for trivial offences, it is better to issue warnings than to have prosecutions. In this case, it would be more effective if the Gardaí could visit the school, have a talk with the children and also, perhaps, with the parents. The trouble is that there is no time for that.

Mention has been made of tinkers, and that class, who go around the country in caravans parked here and there. I do not know whether or not we should put them off the roads altogether. There is one feature of it to which I object and the remedy lies in the hands of the Gardaí. When from ten to 20 caravans arrive at a particular place, especially in the summer time and in warm weather, and remain there for anything up to a month, it is a danger to the health of the community and the Gardaí should not allow these people to remain for so long in any place. I am aware that there is an administrative difficulty there. Whereas, I think, it is specified in some of the older Acts that they can park in a place for only 24 hours and that, after that, legally, they must move along, the snag is that they can move 10 yards further down the road and continue to park, which defeats the purpose of the section of the Act. If that is the case I urge an amendment of the provision. I would not just confine them to 24 hours at a particular spot, but I would very much curtail the practice that has grown up among those people of remaining put for as long as a month.

Complaints are made in nearly every district about damage to and destruction of property. The Gardaí find it difficult to bring the culprits to justice and it causes endless headaches in towns and villages and even in country places where such damage is done. While I feel inclined to urge that the Gardaí should be on the alert and should in each district make an example of anyone found carrying out destruction either to private or public property, I am loathe to do that, because I know well that the Gardaí have not the time. The force is so depleted that it is impossible for them to go chasing all over the countryside after people who carry out destruction to private and public property. However, it is a matter which is annoying people in small towns, villages and country districts.

Some time ago, the Minister made statements in connection with the licensing laws. A commission has been set up to go into the whole question of licensing as it exists to-day, but it may take some time before the commission has gone into the matter thoroughly, drawn up a report, submitted it to the Minister who then submits it to the Government after which legislation may be drafted and introduced into this House by way of a Bill. All that will take some time. The fact that this House set up such a commission and gave it certain instructions—as a matter of fact, asked it to go into the whole licensing laws of this State— means that the laws do need overhauling. Nevertheless, because it will take at least up to two years and possibly more before a Licensing Bill is brought in here, I would urge, like Deputy Blaney and other Deputies, that some instructions on the matter should be issued to the Gardaí, the sergeants and the district justices. It is annoying, peculiar, and so on, to find that one cannot have a drink after certain hours in a certain town, but that one can have it three miles away.

A publican does not mind if he has to close at eight o'clock on Sunday or at 10.30 on week-nights if he knows that everybody else, in every town within a radius of 20 miles, has done the same thing. But when he finds himself in court together with a few of his customers he discovers a publican not three miles away breaking his heart laughing at him and pulling his leg because he had not acquired a knowledge of the after-hour trade. There is an after-hour trade in the country and the question is whether there should or should not be. We cannot have a halfway stage because it is unfair to one group of publicans. We should have some definite instructions sent out now, pending legislation. Instructions should also go to the justices, if that is possible—I do not know whether it is or not. Where publicans are brought to court we have variations in penalties. The same variations apply to offenders on the road. The point I am trying to make is that we should have a better adherence to the law and the law should be evenly administered. I am not saying it is unevenly administered through any particular fault of those administering it, but people may say: "Legislation is coming out on this and we will take it easy," or one officer may adopt a certain attitude and another may take quite a different one. It would be as well if we had uniformity on these things.

One thing which I can never understand is why all the traffic regulations are left to the Minister for the Local Government—although he is a Donegal man I am not trying to lessen his burden. I think that it would be reasonable to expect that the drafting of regulations should be a matter for the Minister for Justice, as he is the person who has to enforce them. I suggest that it leads to the point where one Minister can say: "That is not my job" and another can say it is not his job. That means that we do not get uniformity. Now that there is a new Traffic Bill in the offing, I understand, to be introduced by the Minister for Local Government, this would be the time to see that at least the Minister who will be responsible for the carrying out of the regulations made under that Bill will be the person to undertake the drafting of the regulations especially in regard to traffic.

We have a state of chaos here in the matter of traffic. That is not the fault of the Minister or of any of his servants. It is due to the fact that the number of vehicles, especially motor vehicles, has increased very considerably since the war. While we may be worried about the drunken driver and about the other kind of drivers, I am worried particularly about uninsured drivers, people who drive cars which are not covered by insurance. Accidents will happen; they are happening every day and some of them are very serious. How much more serious is it when we find that the culprit has no insurance and that the injured person cannot get any compensation? In some cases compensation is no good because a person may have received an injury for life, but it is the next best thing. Uninsured drivers should be debarred from driving for a lengthy period and if a second offence occurs they should never be issued with a driving licence again. I have known cases where death has resulted where an uninsured vehicle was at fault and untold hardship for the victim resulted.

I would say that part of the trouble is not that the person does not wish to have his vehicle insured but that the insurance companies are putting endless difficulties in the way of motorists. In some cases they are making it practically impossible to have a vehicle insured. They are increasing the premium and charging extra penalties as well. Seeing that these companies, some of which operate from outside the State, are licensed by the Department, we should see that they do not impose prohibitive conditions on the granting of insurance for a vehicle. Such conditions are causing a lot of people to evade insuring their vehicles. In the first place they may not get insurance under any conditions, no matter how much they pay. In the second place there are cases where the insurance is prohibitive. It is well known that there are companies who do not want to engage in motor insurance at all.

I shall conclude on the note on which I began, that for all the extra work which the Gardaí have to do at the moment I would query the Minister's policy of reductions in their numbers. If they are to do all the work that is required of them they will be able to do it efficiently only if they are above their present strength.

I am sure every Deputy in the House will be pleased to note from the Minister's speech that there has been a decrease, under all headings, for indictable offences. I should like to support my colleague from Donegal, in view of the fact that we have set up a commission to enquire fully into the licensing laws, that there should be some relaxation in enforcement, without allowing flagrant violation of the law as it exists. I understand that that has been done in the case of road traffic offences of a trivial nature because under the heading of road traffic prosecutions there is a very notable decrease. That is is mainly due to the fact, as the Minister stated, that there have been fewer prosecutions for offences of a technical nature. That has reduced the figure under that heading very considerably. I agree with Deputy Cunningham that, while we should not give carte blanche to any publican to violate the laws, in some cases, there is over-strict supervision. I have no hesitation in stating in this House that I know that in some towns and villages of West Limerick certain publicans are overawed and are subject to overdue supervision as against others. I hope that discrimination will disappear. I have a particular case in mind that I will not mention, but which I will convery to the Minister in the very near future. Such discrimination is very wrong and unfair.

We should be very proud of the new Gardaí. They are a grand type of men who have been recruited, as we all know, from every section of our people. The atmosphere in which they have been recruited is very different from the atmosphere which prevailed in the initial stages of recruitment for the Garda Síochána. At that time, members of the force were recruited in the height of a civil war and were partisan to a great extent.

It is remarkable that in concert hall ditties and little stories one can find Irish life truly reflected. I was listening to a very great Connacht man in my home town where, some months ago, a concert was held in aid of the Brigade Memorial Fund. He told us a story about a young man who came to Ardfert, which was his first assignment. He was under the jurisdiction of a hardened old warrior of the 1922 days. On a Sunday evening, the sergeant said to the young recruit: "Go down to Mrs. Harty and listen if there is anything going on." The young recruit went down to Mrs. Harty's and came back to the sergeant and said: "There is a terrible noise there." The sergeant said: "Go down and try if you can hear the noise of the exchange of coins." The young Garda went down, returned and said: "They are still there. I can hear the sound of corks being drawn, but I cannot hear the jingling of coins.""Ah," said the sergeant, "forget about it. They must be some of our own lads."

The point I want to make is that we should be very proud of our young Gardaí. They have been recruited from every section of our people.

Deputy Desmond referred to the matter of patrol cars. There is serious objection to them. People do not like them and say that it is wilful waste of public money that Gardaí should come out in a patrol car to serve a summons on a farmer, or cottier, or somebody else for not having a licence for his dog, that a Garda could come on a bicycle to serve these summonses.

One matter to which I wish to make special reference is the closing of Garda stations in small towns and villages. The officials of the Department of Justice may have their own ideas in regard to this matter. We have been told by country people that departmental officials carry their brains in their brief cases. One must come down to terra firma and judge these things as one finds them. A Garda station may close down at 4 p.m. and a notice is put up to the effect that "Garda So-and-So can be found at his residence," which may be out in the country. I want to remind the Minister of the great tragedy in Rineanna when a big Dutch airliner crashed into the mudbanks. If there had been a Guard on duty in the Garda station at Pallaskenry to receive a phone message and convey the information to the people at Malin Point, who had a boat, the boat could have crossed the Shannon and the lives of a number of people could have been saved. Contact could not be made with the Gardaí in Pallaskenry and there was a horrible tragedy as a result. The closing down of Garda stations at 4 p.m. is ridiculous.

We were often told that what we require is a system something similar to the English system of having a villarge constable. There is no use in providing a Garda station and paying rent, rates and maintenance costs for it, if it closes down at 4 p.m. There would not be any hardship involved in having one Guard always in attendance. We had the specific case in Pallaskenry. If there had been a Guard in the station that evening in Pallaskenry many lives could have been saved, a boat could have been taken from Malin Point to the mudbank where all these people lost their lives.

I should also like to draw the Minister's attention to the question of traffic control. It is all very well for the Minister to tell us that there have been fewer prosecutions for offences of a trivial nature. The Minister may not be responsible for the making of traffic regulations—I think that is the responsibility of the Minister for Local Government—but the two Departments should coalesce and would have an interest in doing so. More use should be made of the Garda force in the matter of traffic control.

I was at the final between Cork and Tipperary at Limerick recently. All the side streets of Limerick run at right angles to the main street. The Garda regulations prescribed that the inflow of traffic from the south and west should go down by the Shannon. That evening, when traffic was returning from the match, the Cork people, West Limerick people and Kerry people were coming at a right angle to the main Limerick-Killarney line and there was not a single Garda on duty at any of the junctions. It was ridiculous. I witnessed four cars abreast on the road trying to get into the line to get to the main road. That would not have happened if there had been a Garda on duty. It was providential that there were not crashes.

Gardaí could be used to a greater extent in traffic control, pending the introduction of traffic regulations which the Minister indicated, in reply to a parliamentary question, will be introduced. The Garda force could be occupied in preserving life under the heading of traffic control to a greater extent than has been the case.

In my home town, there is very heavy traffic to the coast in summer, especially to Ballybunion. I say, as an appreciation of the sergeant there, that, were it not for him and for the common sense that he displays and that we expect all members of the force to exercise, and for his posting Guards at danger points, anything could happen. It should be a matter of universal concern that Guards should be used to a greater extent in the control of traffic.

I have a special interest in traffic. I hesitate to mention it, but my brother was a commissioner in the State of Washington for traffic control, where he had seven districts. A few years ago, he was in this country and compared, to our disadvantage, the control of traffic in Washington and Dublin.

There is one other point which I should like to call to the Minister's notice. He has set up a commission to go fully into the licensing laws and I understand that, when such commissions are set up, they are presented with terms of reference. This commission has been set up to inquire into the licensing laws and its terms of reference should include the fact that a number of people in rural areas have only six-day licences. In West Limerick, in Rathkeale and a number of other places, several publicans have only six-day licences.

The history of that goes back to the time of the old landlords. In those days, the landlords were justices of the peace and when people applied for licences, they said that, on Sundays, the rustics would congregate and that, for the peace and safety of the district it would be better to have the public-house closed on that day. That is the history and the background of the six-day licence and I would like to bring it to the notice of the Minister and to the notice of Deputy Boland. Deputy Boland was for many years Minister for Justice and he earned congratulations from every section of our people for his work in that office. The present Minister is carrying on on the great foundations and standards laid down by Deputy Boland, but I should like to remind both of them that, when this commission is inquiring fully into the licensing laws, they should bear in mind this penal imposition which was placed on our people by the landlords and the justices of the peace. I hope that this imposition will be removed in any legislation that may be introduced.

I have dealt with two of the points that I wanted to make. Another point is the use of the Garda cars, which is, being severely criticised by our people. I will give an instance of the use of the Garda car in Newcastlewest. Suppose a summons is to be served miles away on the Kerry border. If a car goes from Newcastlewest to serve a summons on some unfortunate who might have forgotten to licence his dog, the people say that that is too much. They say that it would be perfectly natural for the Garda in the local barracks to get on his bicycle and cycle to serve that summons.

School attendance supervision is falling very far below what we would like it to be. It is not up to standard. I am speaking from personal knowledge of the fact that there is an inclination, in recent years, for the Gardaí to be a bit careless in that respect. If they are bound by regulation and by law to do this work, then they should do it.

Somebody mentioned tinkers and said that they should have no part in Irish life, that they should be ostracised and that regulations should be made to confine camping to certain limits. I believe they are God's own people. During the Black and Tan days, when we were on the flying columns, the second best friends we had, next to those who gave us homes and shelter, were the people of the road. From the time of the old R.I.C., these people were bludgeoned with the wrath of the Crown and of the R.I.C. itself. I think they are a part of our history and that we need not be ashamed of them. When Puck Fair comes in August, they congregate there from all over Ireland and visitors from many countries come there for the purpose of seeing the congregation of the tinkers. I see nothing wrong with them and I do not believe that they are robbers.

They have a life of their own and what men of high cultural and literary standard, such as Brian MacMahon, of Listowel, have written about the tinkers, is something that we should be very proud of. We do not like them to break the law, but I would not suggest to the Minister or the Gardaí that they should be hard or severe on these people. They are part of Irish life and they go to make up the glory of the past, along with our traditions, our language, music and culture. I would rather see a crowd of tinkers than many millionaires from foreign countries.

I am glad to say that this debate has been conducted in a very calm atmosphere, although various suggestions were made with regard to matters with which the Department has nothing to do. I will endeavour to reply to some of the very important points made and I assure the other Deputies that, if I overlook their points, it does not mean that they will not have attention.

Deputy Boland raised a very important matter regarding the reorganisation of the District and Circuit Courts. He very rightly pointed that, when the extension of jurisdiction was given to these courts, it was decided to wait and see how things would work out. It is not the Department's intention to shelve the matter in any way. We are just waiting for some time to see the effects on the various courts of the working out of the increased jurisdiction. We do not wish to rush the matter. We want to give plenty of time to see how the increased jurisdiction will operate.

I think three years is a good time.

Yes; it is going on since 1953 or 1954. We are allowing plenty of time to see how matters will work out.

Deputy Boland and other Deputies were interested in the matter of rents. This is a very contentious matter and I promised last year that I would shortly have something to introduce in connection with the Rent Act. I can assure the Deputy that, before the Adjournment of the Dáil for the recess, I will introduce a Bill dealing with the reversionary leases as mentioned in the Conroy Report, so that Deputies will have an opportunity of reading it during the recess. It will be a short Bill.

Deputy T. Lynch and other Deputies raised a very important matter in connection with what they called the tinkers of the country. I would ask Deputies to use their influence with the public bodies of which they are members to get these bodies to provide more pounds throughout the country. I know one tourist county from which there were many complaints about tinkers, but, when they provided a pound, they were able to solve the problem, by putting the horses into the pound and by compelling the people to pay for the trespass of the horses before they would release them.

It was stated that there are 6,000 tinkers in the country and that we should take action to deal with them, but what are we to do with them? They are homeless people. Can we put them in a concentration camp? There were complaints about tinkers in Waterford. Outside the city there is a by-road, not used by the public, which is being used as a camping ground by these people. The Garda appealed to the county council to close up that road. It was the recognised camping ground in Waterford for a large number of these people. The county council refused to close the road. The Gardai co-operate as much as they possibly can. Deputies should realise that we cannot round up 6,000 people and put them in a concentration camp. What will become of their wives and children? They would be homeless.

Deputy Lynch and others referred to recruiting for the Garda Síochána and Deputy Cunningham complained about men being disappointed. We had expected to call up more men. Entry to the Garda is the same as entry to the Civil Service and those who were disappointed will have the right to submit themselves for the next examination to be held at the end of the year.

Deputy Rooney had a complaint to make in regard to the height required. I want to assure the Deputy and the House that the standard is five feet nine inches which is the very minimum. That has never been interfered with. Other Deputies had complaints to make in connection with the licensing laws. Deputies are aware that a commission is now being set up. I should like to remind the House that last year I was reprimanded here and attacked very severely, because I said I did not consider it a criminal offence for a labourer or farm labourer to be found a few minutes after the prescribed time in a public house. I am certain that the majority of the Guards are men with common sense and that they will take the view expressed by the Deputies.

I receive complaints, as also do Deputies. I have to send these complaints to the Commissioner and I cannot deal further with them. We are told that the Guards in some cases take an undue interest in certain houses and do not bother about other houses. The Guards deny that, but, after all, human nature is human nature. We hope that the commission will not take two years to submit a report. I am going to appeal to it to forward its report within six months. We are all aware of the defects in the licensing laws and these the commission will endeavour to remedy. Ninety-five per cent. of the people of Ireland could, without haying to wait a year, give their views on the defects in the licensing laws. I am sure the commission will submit a very comprehensive report which will enable the Government to bring in a law which, though it may not satisfy everybody, will meet the wishes of the majority of the people.

Has the Minister any idea when the commission will start?

I hope it will be very soon. We are trying to suit the majority of the principal Deputies of the House in connection with it.

Deputy Burke and others spoke about extending the age limits for members of the force. We have extended the age in respect of all ranks up to the age of 63 while the retiring age of superintendents and chief superintendents, having certified pre-Truce service, has been extended to 65. All Deputies agree in insisting upon a certificate and a medal.

Deputy Murphy compained about the excessive costs charged by the legal profession in West Cork, but I am sure that everybody has a complaint against the legal profession, whether in Cork or anywhere else. If you go to court, you will pay for going there. The scale in respect of the District Court and High Court is fixed and solicitors are expected to comply with that scale. Any person who feels he is being charged an excessive sum can have his costs taxed. Naturally enough, lawyers and professional men endeavour to get the largest sum they possibly can, but that is the position in all professions and trades. In regard to the District Court and the Circuit Court, there is a special scale and lawyers are not allowed to charge more than that scale.

Deputies made complaints in regard to the transfer of Guards and one Deputy complained about an area which was going to be left without a superintendent. Under legislation passed in this House, the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána has full control and authority over the Garda and all the Minister can do in regard to complaints or representations he may receive is to forward them direct to the Commissioner. With regard to transfers, non-commissioned promotions and so on, the Minister has no control whatsoever. The law passed in this House gave the Commissioner full power and authority over the administration and working of the Garda Síochána. That is the Commissioner's responsibility. If he fails in that responsibility, the Minister and the Government will have the right to deal with him. Up to the present, I do not think he has acted in any way other than to meet the wishes of the majority of the people of this House.

Deputies spoke about the closing of barracks, but I should like to point out that, since 1953, only 32 barracks were closed in the Twenty-Six Counties and the Commissioner assures me that, as a result of so doing, areas are being patrolled better. There is no call for alarm, as the Commissioner assures me that, with the motor and motorcycle patrols, bigger areas will be patrolled.

Deputy Blaney referred to the motor-cycle patrols. We have eight of them. These are the "courtesy cops" and they operate on the approaches to the cities at peak periods of traffic. Speaking of traffic, I should like to point out that the making of traffic by-laws is entirely a matter in Dublin for the corporation. We have only to administer the by-laws passed by the local bodies. Public bodies pass their own by-laws and exercise their own control. Possibly, they will be able to remedy the complaints Deputies made in regard to caravans parking for months on the side of a road. That is purely a matter for the public body concerned because they make the by-laws. We promise to give the public bodies every support we can in connection with that matter.

Deputy Kennedy put forward the suggestion that another force, in the form of the old L.S.F., should be brought in. I do not want to make the excuse that that force would not be under my control.

I am glad Deputies have discussed this Estimate in such a calm and free manner. I wish to thank them on all sides of the House for the co-operation they have given to me not alone here but on other occasions when I have tried to meet them. It was not always possible to do that but they have recognised my difficulties and have understood them. I wish, therefore, to thank Deputies on all sides for the help they have given me in dealing with a very complicated Department and in doing what, for any Minister for Justice, is a very unpopular job, trying to administer the law.

Again, I wish to thank Deputies for their co-operation and to assure them that I will continue to help them in any way possible. I can also assure them that I shall do my best to have remedied all the grievances that have been mentioned.

Vote put and agreed to.
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