Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Oct 1956

Vol. 160 No. 1

National Loan, 1956. - Nomination of Member of Government—Motion of Approval.

An Taoiseach

Tairgim:—

Go gcomhaontóidh Dáil Éireann leis an Taoiseach d'ainmniú an Teachta Pádraig Mac Loingsigh chun a cheaptha ag an Uachtarán chun bheith ina chomhalta den Rialtas.

I might add, for the information of the Dáil, that, subject to the approval of this motion by the House and the subsequent appointment by the President of Deputy Lindsay to be a member of the Government, I propose to terminate the assignment of the Department of the Gaeltacht to General Mulcahy, which I made on the 2nd July last, and assign that Department to Deputy Lindsay. I am satisfied that the new Department will require the whole-time and undivided attention of a member of the Government, and, as I indicated to the Dáil in the course of the debate on the Estimate for my Department on the 26th July last, the assignment of the Department of the Gaeltacht to General Mulcahy was purely a temporary arrangement.

Mr. McQuillan

May I ask the Taoiseach, in connection with this appointment, if it is the intention of the Government or the new Minister who has been appointed to see that the Irish language is taught to the new gentry who have moved in from abroad to acquire house property, land, fishing rights, and so on, in the Gaeltacht areas from which the native Irish have fled in disgust?

An Ceann Comhairle

The administration of Government policy in the Gaeltacht does not arise on this motion.

Mr. McQuillan

Surely we are entitled to ask what the functions of the new Minister will be.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to ask questions in certain relevant circumstances, but there is nothing in this motion which will allow him to ask the question he has asked or to continue in that strain.

Mr. de Valera

We are against this appointment. We think it should not be necessary to introduce a further member into the Government in order to get this work of the Gaeltacht done. My own hope was that there would be put in charge of that Department one whose public activities had associated him with the Gaeltacht and the restoration of the Irish language. It is possible, in my opinion, to get the necessary work done without addition to the membership of the Government. The present Government, if this Minister is appointed, will have two Ministers and one Parliamentary Secretary more than we had in our time. There are some Departments of State which do not, to say the least of it, overwork a Minister and it should be possible not to increase, anyhow, the existing number in order to get this work done.

I do believe the Department of Education requires a whole-time Minister. I believe also that, if anything is to come from this creation of a Minister for the Gaeltacht, it is necessary that the person who is appointed should be able to devote his whole time to it and that he should be a person in whom the public will have full confidence so that he might get the necessary co-operation and his work be effective. We do not think the present appointment of an additional member is necessary and we do not think that the person who is being nominated by the Taoiseach is the best person to take charge. For that reason, it is necessary for us to oppose this appointment.

Mr. MacEntee

This motion requires some further elucidation. This Government was returned in order to reduce expenditure. This Government was returned, according to its own declarations, on an undertaking to make Government Departments work more efficiently. One would have thought that for a Department with such a difficult task before it as that of the new Department of the Gaeltacht, an experienced administrator would have been proposed by the Taoiseach. I do not wish at all to impugn the ability of Deputy Lindsay. I am sure he is able. I gather he has had a very good and successful career in another place, in the forensic arena. He has built up a substantial practice and connection as a practising barrister, but no one will deny that his experience as an actual departmental administrator has been of the briefest.

This neophyte—and I do not use the word in any offensive sense—this neophyte in public affairs is going to be given one of the most difficult tasks that could be imposed upon any Minister. Just think of what he has to do. He has to look after the interests of an area, which, as we all know, has been sadly neglected over a great number of years——

Deputies

Hear, hear!

Mr. MacEntee

Deputies will permit me to finish—sadly neglected over a great number of years before Fianna Fáil took office. When we were in office the affairs of the Gaeltacht were our first concern.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy understand that administrative policy in respect of the Gaeltacht may not be discussed on this?

Mr. MacEntee

I am not discussing——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is clearly endeavouring to discuss policy in respect of the Gaeltacht on this motion.

Mr. MacEntee

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is irrelevant.

Mr. MacEntee

No. What I am endeavouring to put before the House is that this is a very difficult commission to entrust to any person. I am merely pointing out what the economic circumstances of the Gaeltacht are.

An Ceann Comhairle

That clearly would be a discussion on policy in respect of the Gaeltacht.

Mr. MacEntee

I would ask you to recall the words of the Taoiseach in presenting this motion to the House. He has submitted a motion that the Dáil should approve the nomination by him of Deputy Patrick James Lindsay for appointment by the President to be a member of the Government, as he proposed to entrust to him the portfolio of Minister for the Gaeltacht. That, Sir, naturally, I submit, raises the question as to the fitness, from the point of view of actual experience in public administration, of the Deputy whose nomination the House is asked to approve; and it is on that basis that I am endeavouring to put to the House the argument that this is, as I have already said, a most difficult portfolio. I have just pointed out that after a great number of years, despite everything that has been done by this House to improve the lot of the people of the Gaeltacht, the people are still leaving the Gaeltacht. If one takes up the statutes of the Dáil, one will see therein special Acts relating to Gaeltacht housing and special provision made for Gaeltacht roads. The fisheries legislation is very largely centred upon the needs of the Gaeltacht. In fact, one could say that there is not any problem that would properly come before us——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must intervene again and point out to the Deputy that he is endeavouring to discuss the problem of the Gaeltacht.

Mr. MacEntee

No, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will allow me to state my understanding of what he is endeavouring to do and, if he pursues his present line, I cannot allow him to continue.

Mr. MacEntee

I regret that the Chair seems to be impatient with me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is not impatient.

Mr. MacEntee

This, Sir, is a most important appointment and I am suggesting that the person to be appointed will have to deal with problems of the same complexity as those with which the Government as a whole has to deal in relation to the country as a whole. Now, everything that has to be dealt with by the Government in relation to the country as a whole, but which the Government allots to separate Ministries, will have to be dealt with by the Minister for the Gaeltacht in himself. He will have to consider many of the problems that the Minister for Local Government has had to consider; he will have to consider many of the problems the Minister for Health has to consider; he will have to consider many of the problems that the Minister for Lands has to consider; he will have to consider many of the problems that the Minister for Agriculture has to consider.

What is happening? Here, the Taoiseach proposes to ask this House to approve of the appointment as Minister for the Gaeltacht of a Deputy who, however estimable in himself, however high his personal qualities, has not had experience of any Government Department hitherto—has not been in the Department of Local Government, has not been in the Department of Agriculture, has not been in the Department of Lands, has not been in the Department of Health or the Department of Social Welfare.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

What did the Deputy feel when he first became a Minister?

Mr. MacEntee

Surely the problems of social welfare as applied to the Gaeltacht are some of the most difficult problems with which the Minister for the Gaeltacht will be confronted. I think, Sir, if it had been for instance an experienced member of the Government—a member of the Government who had been, say, Minister for Local Government or who had been associated with, say, the Department of Education, who would know the difficulties of applying an educational programme to the Gaeltacht—who had been submitted to this House, then many of the objections which are, I consider, very pertinent in this instance would, of course, be unsustainable. But that is not the position. Here we are confronted, as I have said—again I want to make it quite clear that I am not reflecting upon the ability or the capacity of Deputy Lindsay—with the fact, known to every member of this House, that Deputy Lindsay's association——

Mr. Coogan

With the Gaeltacht.

Mr. MacEntee

——with the practical problems of public administration has been of the briefest. It is, therefore, a mockery—almost a mockery—on the part of the Taoiseach to come here and submit him for our approval for nomination to this most important post. As the Taoiseach has said, we are not opposed to the appointment of a Minister for the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Coogan

What Taoiseach said that?

Mr. MacEntee

As Deputy de Valera, the Leader of the Opposition, said, we are not opposed to the appointment of a Minister for the Gaeltacht.

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins

He said quite the opposite.

Mr. MacEntee

On the contrary, we welcome the appointment of a Minister who will be specially charged with the affairs of the Gaeltacht. We would like to have a Minister who would devote his whole time and his undivided attention to the problems of the Gaeltacht. When the Bill to set up an independent Ministry for the Gaeltacht was before this House, we approved of it and, as Deputy de Valera has already said, we were disappointed when we heard that Deputy Mulcahy, Minister for Education, would have to take charge of the Gaeltacht Ministry as well as the Department of Education. As recent events have shown, it is quite clear that the Minister for Education is required to give his whole time and attention to the problems of the Department of Education. Otherwise, he is likely to get his knuckles rapped or perhaps his back belted.

Mr. Coogan

What association had Deputy Jack Lynch with the Gaeltacht? This is a six-mark question.

Mr. MacEntee

As experience has shown, we want a whole-time Minister for Education. We also want a whole-time Minister in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Coogan

And we are getting him.

Mr. MacEntee

Indeed, as I have said, we were disappointed when we heard that there was to be a Minister with a dual responsibility, a Minister who was to carry a fifth wheel on his coach, because very often that is what a Parliamentary Secretary turns out to be. While we welcome the appointment of an independent Minister for the Gaeltacht, we are not satisfied that it is necessary to appoint an additional member of the Government. After all, there may be a few Ministers who are overworked. No one will deny, for instance, that the Minister for Finance, faced, as he has said, with the spectre of the balance of payments, must have a very anxious job; no one will deny that the Minister for Agriculture perhaps, faced with the fact that we are producing less and less agricultural produce and that the plight of our farmers is becoming worse and worse—

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Do not talk damn nonsense.

Mr. MacEntee

——no one will deny that the Minister for Agriculture——

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Utter rubbish!

Mr. MacEntee

——ought to be working overtime. No one will deny that. No one will deny that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, watching the mounting figures of unemployment week after week——

Mr. Coogan

What has that to do with the Gaeltacht?

Mr. MacEntee

——should at least be working overtime. No one will deny these things. There are other Ministers who work hard in their Departments. I do not want to particularise them. There are one or two Departments such as those I have mentioned which certainly make the utmost demands upon the time, energy and capacity of any Minister. There are, however, other Departments in the present Government where, we all know, the Ministers are only ciphers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not discuss the administration of Government Departments on this motion.

Mr. MacEntee

What I am directing my argument to is this: it is not necessary, in order to provide the Department of the Gaeltacht with an independent Minister—with a Minister who will be solely responsible for that Department—to make an additional appointment to the Government. There are Departments of State, presided over by Ministers, which could very readily be amalgamated with others. There are Departments of State whose ministerial heads are, as everybody in the country knows, mere ciphers. If there are some Ministers who are overworked, there are other Ministers who are scarcely capable of running their own Departments, and I would suggest that some of these Ministers should resign——

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Is this in order?

Mr. MacEntee

——and allow abler blood to come in, so that an experienced man be freed to take over the Department of the Gaeltacht. We are not asked to approve of that, but of a proposal to enlarge the Government, a Government in which, if you put the whole 14 together, you would not get seven who would be capable of holding the important jobs they have. Let those who are ciphers in the Government resign.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

This is entirely out of order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is going entirely outside the question before the House.

Mr. MacEntee

I am discussing the question of the number of members in the Government. The number is 13. It is an unlucky number. It has been a very unlucky number for the people of this country.

Mr. O'Leary

And the Deputy is the unlucky member of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I have asked the Chair for a ruling.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already told the Deputy that he was going beyond the question before the House.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Can we have a ruling as to whether the Deputy is in order?

Mr. MacEntee

The proposal is a simple one. It is to add another member to the Government.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I would ask for a ruling as to whether Deputy MacEntee is in order in proceeding along those lines.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have already pointed out to the Deputy the portion of his speech which is not in order.

Mr. Lemass

At one time it was the policy of the Government—and frequently the policy was announced by the Minister for Health himself— to reduce the size of the Government. Surely, therefore, it is in order to discuss a proposal to increase it.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It was never my policy.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputies are anxious to forget the past.

Mr. Coogan

The Deputy forgets 20 years of it.

Mr. MacEntee

When they were first returned to office Fine Gael promised to amalgamate certain Ministries in order to reduce the size of the Government and the cost of government. I remember that, when we brought in a Bill to increase the number of Ministries so as to set up an independent Department of Health, which Deputy O'Higgins now graces, and a separate Department of Social Welfare, which Deputy Corish graces, a member in this House not unrelated to Deputy O'Higgins pointed out that not only were we increasing the number of Ministers but that there would be increases in the staff of civil servants and in public expenditure.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Does the Deputy not remember who the first Minister for Health was to be?

Mr. MacEntee

It was the late Deputy Dr. O'Higgins who pointed that out.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

He was not then a member of the Government.

Mr. MacEntee

He was trying to be a member of a Government and was then telling the people of the country that if he and his colleagues got into power they would reduce the number of Ministries. I am sorry I was forced to be personal.

Mr. Lemass

They also promised to reduce the number of Parliamentary Secretaries.

Mr. MacEntee

I am sorry I got into that rather personal atmosphere but the fact of the matter is that, as I have said, there is not any justification for this proposal of the Taoiseach. What this country wants is not more Ministers. It wants different Ministers.

Mr. Coogan

We had you for 20 years and what did you do?

Mr. MacEntee

It wants Ministers who are prepared to deal with the problems that are now confronting the country.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Is the Deputy in order in following this line?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is in order in referring to the number of Ministers in the Government. He is not entitled to refer to the administration of the different Departments or to the work of the various Ministers.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I suggest that he be constantly reminded of that by the Chair.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has been constantly reminding him.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

We will watch that.

Mr. MacEntee

We would do much better if the Minister for Health went down to the office he opened in Portlaoise during the by-election and gave some attention to that.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

That is in accordance with Deputy MacEntee's usual form. Deputy MacEntee did not come down to Portlaoise.

Mr. MacEntee

I shall repeat—even if it does annoy Deputy O'Higgins— that what the country wants is not more Ministers. It does not want more Ministers, but it does want different Ministers.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It does not want Deputy MacEntee and company back.

Mr. MacEntee

It does not want to be deluged with words. The country is bleeding——

Mr. Coogan

You bled it long enough.

Mr. MacEntee

We have a desperate balance of payments situation here and all we want is a team that will work together; not a larger team, but a better co-ordinated team, a team that has better leadership.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of leadership of the Government does not arise on this motion.

Mr. MacEntee

We want less expenditure. We want value for money.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

If the Chair does not control you I will not listen to you. I shall leave the House as a protest.

Mr. MacEntee

I know that does not appeal to members of the Government. They went into office on the basis that they had millions to spend. They certainly have spent them.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would suggest that the Deputy relate his remarks to the motion before the House.

Mr. MacEntee

I am going to. The members of the Government said they had millions to spend and they have spent them. We object to their spending even £100 unnecessarily, considering the situation in which the people find themselves at the moment.

Mr. Coogan

Why, then, did you order jet planes?

Mr. MacEntee

The Minister for Finance is quite obviously concerned with the fact that we are spending too much. We are spending too much. He is asking the people to spend less, to save more. They say charity begins at home. That precept should be put into practice first of all by those who preach it. Therefore, in this situation I suggest that if the Government is in earnest in preaching thrift to the people the Taoiseach ought to practise it in relation to the Government's personnel. They should decide, if the team as a whole is not good enough to give them a good Minister for the Gaeltacht, to look through the existing Government Departments and see which could be amalgamated to provide a separate Minister. They should do what is done in business. Even in football, if your team is not good enough, you put somebody off before you take another man on. That is what they should do here in relation to this Ministry; they should decide that one of the passengers, one of the ciphers in the Government, should be put off. They could bring in Deputy Lindsay then if they want him, but if they do bring him in as a substitute, do not put him in charge of the Department for the Gaeltacht.

There are easier Departments than that in which Deputy Lindsay might try his apprentice hand, in which, so to speak, he might serve his apprenticeship. Give him one of the other Ministries, but do not give him the Ministry of the Gaeltacht. At least, give to the people of the Gaeltacht the services of one of the more experienced administrators who are familiar with the problems with which the Minister for the Gaeltacht will have to deal. Do not trick the people. Do not pretend to the people of the Gaeltacht that you are concerned about them, when you prove the opposite when you give them the most junior Minister in the Cabinet, a Minister who, as I said before, has had no real serious experience of public office.

I want to make it quite clear that I am not reflecting on Deputy Lindsay's ability as a lawyer or his capacity in ordinary affairs, but I say that, if for no other reason than that he is not sufficiently experienced to deal with this very important Ministry, the House should not approve of his nomination.

Seán Ó Loingsigh

Ba mhaith liom cur i gcoinne an cheapacháin seo. Ní hionann san is a rá nach bhfuilim sásta go bhfuil gá leis an Aireacht a bheith curtha ar bun, ach amháin ná fuilim sásta go bhfuil an t-am tagtha fós chun eagras feidhmiúcháin a chur ar bun nó go bhfuil an polasaí deimhnithe ag an Rialtas fós i dtreo is gur féidir Aire a cur i bhfeighil na h-Aireachta seo. Do réir mar is eol dom, níl go dtí seo ach beirt oifigeach seasamhach san Aireacht nua. Tá beirt nó triúir eile sealadach ann agus ansan tagann an Taoiseach isteach sa Tigh agus iarrann sé orainn an ceapachán nua a dheanamh chun fuireann den mhéid agus den tsaghas sin a riaradh.

My principal objection to this appointment is that at the present time there is neither the staff nor a policy of sufficient clarity to warrant the appointment of a Minister. As far as I know—and I am fairly sure of my ground—there are only two permanent officials of the Civil Service assigned to this Department, that is a secretary and a principal officer. There are two others who are assigned from another office in a temporary capacity and that is another office which is also charged with certain obligations towards the Gaeltacht as well as towards the congested districts. I suggest that the necessity for appointing a Minister in charge of such a small staff charged with a task of such magnitude is asking too much of the House and of the people of this country.

When this Ministry was set up by amendment of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, I suggested that it would prove to be no more than the changing of the nameplate on the office of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government to that of Minister for the Gaeltacht. I was wrong, because the office of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Government—which has changed in character—I should have said Oifig na Gaeltachta agus na gCeantar gCúng—is still in existence and side by side with that office, we are asked to approve the appointment of a Minister in charge of the Gaeltacht.

I feel that the Government's policy in relation to the administration of such an office should be much more clearly indicated to this House. It may be suggested that when the appointment of a Minister for Health was made by the former Fianna Fáil Government, the Minister had neither office nor staff with which to start the proposed new Ministry. At least he had a charter; he had a Health Act on which to work. This Minister, if he is appointed, will have no such charter; he will have no terms of reference other than to do his best for the Gaeltacht and the Irish language. He has been given a defined area, defined in so far as it can be defined as a certain few Fíor-Ghaeltacht parishes that are now in existence——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I fear that the Deputy is going on to administration and it is not relevant to this motion.

Mr. J. Lynch

As Minister for the Gaeltacht. I suggest that the appointment of Deputy Lindsay as Minister in charge of a Department that has at the present time four officers in it is relevant and I suggest that the House should be in a better position to assess the value of such an appointment by being told what functions of government and administration are to be assigned to that Ministry.

Having had some experience of that type of work with which Deputy Lindsay as Minister for the Gaeltacht will be charged, I know that that work is of such diverse character that it requires a fairly clear indication from the Government of what functions the Minister is to be required to discharge. In the Gaeltacht, as Deputy MacEntee has pointed out, almost every other Department of State functions through one agency or another and possibly, in the Gaeltacht, certain Departments of State function more than others. I need only refer to the office of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance which operates in a special way in providing schemes for the workless in these areas. The fisheries branch of the Department of Agriculture has certain functions there; the Department of Agriculture itself has functions in the Gaeltacht. So also has the Department of Lands and almost every Department of State that has any active or constructive work of a concrete nature to perform is engaged in one way or another in the Gaeltacht areas.

Should we not be told in view of the proposal to make this appointment, which, if any, of these functions are to be assigned or allotted to the new Minister? Should we not be told whether his functions are to be a continuation of the functions that were given to me as former Parliamentary Secretary in charge of Oifig na Gaeltachta and, if so, I suggest that such an office, under the circumstances, would still be sufficient usefully and effectively to carry out the type of duties that I foresee the new Minister will have to perform. I need refer only to the half-hearted manner in which some of the schemes that were there before and some that were envisaged——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not discuss the manner in which schemes have been carried out in the Gaeltacht.

Mr. J. Lynch

I can refer, I take it, to the manner in which these schemes or the administration of these schemes was formulated previously, vis-a-vis the manner in which I envisage it will be formulated by the new Ministry. Attached to Oifig na Gaeltachta was an inter-departmental committee, composed of officers chosen from each of the Departments to which I have referred. They were senior officers who knew their business in relation to the administration of affairs in the Gaeltacht. They came together and were presided over by me as Parliamentary Secretary. They met once in three weeks and more often twice in every three weeks. In the period of the present Government who are almost completing their third year, that inter-departmental committee has not met more than ten times.

I submit that if the new Minister could be properly equipped to acknowledge the task he has before him, he should have been in a position to have had more frequent consultations with such a departmental committee. He should be in a position at this stage to know what, if any, of the activities of the Minister for Lands, the Minister for Agriculture, in relation to fisheries, or the Minister for Finance in relation to special employment schemes, he would be given executive functions in.

At the moment I believe that the new Minister does not know what he is supposed to do, or what executive functions he will have, whether he will have any or have any money within his own power to dispose of and spend in connection with employment in the Gaeltacht areas. I suggest that the time is not yet ripe to appoint, from the administrative and the staff structure point of view, such a Minister, and, since reference has been made to my knowledge of the Gaeltacht areas, let me say that I never presumed to have any when I took up office and I would remind Deputy Coogan that there was no intention of appointing me Minister or member of the Government in the office I held from 1951 to 1954.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Nuair a bhí an Bille Airí agus Rúnaithe Parlaiminte ag dul tríd an Teach seo, dúirt mé go gcaithfí Aire a chur i bhfeighil Aireacht na Gaeltachta agus chomh fada is a théann an rud seo, is mór an rud go bhfuil sin dhá dhéanamh. Ach nuair a chonnaic muintir na tíre agus na Teachtaí Dála an fógra inné go raibh an Rúnaí Parlaiminte, An Teachta Mac Loingsigh, chun bheith ina bhall den Rialtas, shíl siad cinnte nach gcuirfí an fear sin i bhfeighil Aireacht na Gaeltachta agus bhí cúis leis sin, mar tá a fhios ag gach duine go mb'fhearr an rud é fear a chur i bhfeighil na hAireachta sin, fear a mbeadh taithí aige ar an nGaeilge, ar nósanna, ar chultúr agus ar shaol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta, agus, cé nach bhfuil mé ag lochtú an Aire úir mar fhear, tá mé dhá lochtú mar Aire na Gaeltachta toisc nach bhfuil na cáilíochtaí sin aige a luaigh mé.

Do chuir sé ionadh orm féin nuair a luaigh an Taoiseach ainm an Aire, mar bhí mé ag súil go gcuirfí duine éigin i bhfeighil na hAireachta cosúil leis an Aire Ua Maolchatha. Tá taithí aige sin ar an Roinn Oideachais; tá taithí mhaith aige ar labhairt na Gaeilge; tá baint aige le fada leis an nGaeltacht agus tuigeann muintir na Gaeltachta é sin. Ach níl an scéal céanna amhlaidh maidir leis an Aire úr. Is an-olc an rud é toiseacht le hAire nach bhfuil muinín ag muintir na Gaeltachta as. Níl rud ar bith déanta ag an Aire úr san am atá caite go bhféadfadh muintir na Gaeltachta amharc siar air is go ndéarfaidis; "Sin fear a bhfuil obair mhaith déanta aige agus a bhfuil muinín ag muintir na Gaeltachta as." Ach níl mórán déanta aige sa Ghaeltacht ná in áit ar bith eile go bhféadfadh muintir na Gaeltachta amharc siar air agus a rá gurb shin gníomh atá déanta ag an Aire úr, agus gur fear fóiristineach ceart é don Aireacht úr.

Chuir mé féin suim mhór sa rud adúirt an Teachta Ó Loingsigh maidir leis an mbeagán oibre a bhí déanta sa Roinn úr le blianta anuas, ón am a cuireadh ar bun í. Níl mé ag lochtú an Aire Ua Maolchatha mar gheall air sin. Bhí, agus tá, a lámha lán aige in obair na Roinne Oideachais.

Seán Ó Coileáin

Bíonn gach tosnú lag.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

B'féidir gur maith an rud é nach bhfuil mórán déanta agus b'fhéidir gur fearr an rud é an toiseach a fhágháil ag an té ar a mbeidh cúram foirgneamh na hAireachta nua do thógáil. Brathann cuid mhór ar an bhfoirgneamh, ar an dubhshraith, a cuirfear faoin bhfoirgneamh úr. Ní shílim gurb é an dóigh atá tofa an tslí is fearr chun an dubhshraith sin a thógáil agus chun obair chrua agus obair fhónta a dhéanamh don Ghaeltacht. Mar adúirt an Teachta Mac an tSaoi, níor ghá duine úr a chur sa Rialtas ar chor ar bith.

Nuair a bhí Fianna Fáil i réim bhí an Aireacht Shláinte is Leasa Shóisialaigh i bhfeighil duine amháin. Rinne an duine amháin sin an-obair agus rinne sé mórán oibre. Cén fáth nach féidir leis an Rialtas seo atá imníoch faoi stáid eacnamaíochta na tíre agus faoin méid airgid atá dhá chaitheamh ag muintir na tíre, Rialtas atá ag tabhairt comhairle do na daoine airgead do shábháil, cén fáth nach féidir leo féin an t-airgead seo a shábháil? Ní gá cheithre Aire dhéag chun an tír seo do reachtáil go maith agus ní gá cheithre Aire dhéag chun an tír do reachtáil go holc mar atá sí dhá reachtáil anois. Tá níos mó ná caoga faoin gcéad de na hAirí a bhfuil baint acu leis an dlí—dlíodóirí is ea iad.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Níl baint ar bith aige sin leis an gceist atá os cóir na Dála.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Dlíodóir atá. san Aire úr agus tá seachtar ann cheana féin. Tá ocht nAire ina ndlíodóirí. B'fhéidir nach locht é sin ach ní fada eile a bheas le dul againn go dtí go mbeidh dlíodóirí ar fad sa Rialtas.

Mr. Smith

The lawyers' paradise.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Nuair a bhí an tAire nua ag cainnt sa Tigh seo ar an mBille, do thug sé mar leithscéal nach raibh an Ghaeilge go ró-líofa aige. Do labhair sé i nGaedilge ar feadh cúpla nóiméad agus ansin d'iompuig sé ar an mBéarla. Dúirt sé nach raibh taithí aige ar labhairt an Ghaeilge. Anois, nílim a rá go bhfuil aon locht air ins an méid sin. D'fhéadfadh duine nach bhfuil ach beagán Gaeilge aige bheith in a Aire mhaith don Ghaeltacht agus d'fhéadfadh leis fónamh don Ghaeltacht. Bíodh sin mar atá, de bharr an méid a dúirt sé, ní bheidh an muinín céanna ag muintir na Gaeltachta as agus beidh air sár-obair a dhéanamh chun a chur in a luí ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta go bhfuil sé ullamh agus réidh chun an chonstaic sin a shárú.

Fé mar a bhí mé a rá, caoi mhaith í seo chun airgid a shábháil. Ba mhaith liom go n-innseodh an Taoiseach don Tigh seo cén fáth nár bhain sé feidhm as an ócáid seo chun airgead a shábháil agus deá-shampla a thabhairt don tír. Do bhí muintir na tíre a rá cúpla lá ó shoin go raibh an Rialtas ag caitheamh barraíocht airgid, go raibh barraíocht Teachtaí sa Tigh seo nuair ba leor caoga Teachtaí don tír agus go raibh barraíocht Seanadóirí ann don tír. Cinnte, déarfaidh siad anois, agus níos láidre fós, go bhfuil barraíocht Airí sa Rialtas, go bhfuil an Rialtas ag caitheamh barraíocht airgid agus go bhfuil siad ag tabhairt comhairle do mhuintir na hÉireann nach bhfuil siad féin sásta a ghlacadh.

Mr. Lemass

My observations will be few but I hope they will be pungent. In the first place, I want to make it quite clear that I consider Deputy Lindsay to be a far more competent person than three-quarters of the members of the present Government. Indeed, I am sure that will not be contested by anybody, even by those who may not share my opinion of Deputy Lindsay's abilities. If this proposal came to the Dáil simultaneously with another proposition to get rid of three or four of the existing Ministers who, everybody knows, are incapable of discharging the functions of their offices, this would not be contested.

The Taoiseach

Surely it is not in order for the Deputy to make personal attacks on Ministers?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should not make personal attacks on Ministers.

Mr. Lemass

I submit it is in order on a question of increasing the number of Ministers. I remember when Deputy de Valera, as Taoiseach, came here in 1947 with a Bill to establish the present Ministries of Health and Social Welfare. I remember how the then members of the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party argued that these additional Ministries were unnecessary, that they represented an avoidable increase in the cost of Government, and they committed themselves to make changes which would involve a reduction in the number of Ministers. The Fianna Fáil Government carried on the administration of this country with 12 Ministers and five Parliamentary Secretaries. To-day, we have 13 Ministers and seven Parliamentary Secretaries—and we are now going to get a fourteenth Minister to try to carry on the work of Government. It will not be contested that half a dozen of the present Government could be dropped and would not be missed. In fact, the administration of Government would improve.

Is it reasonable for the Taoiseach to come here with a proposition to increase the cost of Government by adding another Minister to the Cabinet at a time when hundreds of officials and workers are being dismissed on the plea of the need for economy? Does every Deputy not know that in his own constituency men are losing their work because the Government has given directions that they are to be dismissed in order to save their wages? It is in that atmosphere—an atmosphere in which the number of unemployed, because of Government policy, has increased by 30 per cent. in a few months —that the Government come here with a proposition to increase the number of Ministers by adding one to their own membership, thus putting another salary on the public pay-roll.

Deputy Lindsay's appointment will, I think, improve the quality of the Government but it would be improved enormously if, simultaneous with his selection, those who have proved their incompetence, and whom every Deputy sitting behind the Taoiseach knows to be incompetent, were removed. I want to stress a point of view which may be peculiarly my own. I think there are too many lawyers in the Government. Did the Taoiseach consider any other appointment to this Ministry except a lawyer? Did he think it worth while to look through his own Party or the Parties in alliance with him to see if there was not somebody qualified for the appointment to the Department of the Gaeltacht who had some other claim than that he frequented the Fine Gael circles in the Four Courts? Is that the only road to appointment in the Government?

Mr. O'Sullivan

There are a few blushes behind you.

Mr. Smith

Eight plus six.

Mr. Lemass

I am prepared to agree that, in any Government, one or two people with legal training are an asset, but the indications are that nobody can get into this Government unless he has first passed the test of some investigation in the Four Courts. Again, I want it to be quite clear that, if you have to get another lawyer in the Government, Deputy Lindsay is as good as you can get. I believe that to be so, and perhaps I have more knowledge of Deputy Lindsay than some of my colleagues who are present now.

I feel it is completely unjustifiable for the Government to go on adding to the cost of Government at the present time. It makes all their declarations about the importance of saving and the need for economy sound like so much hypocrisy. Do they think anybody will take them seriously when they again go on the radio to urge the need for economy and saving at a time when they themselves add to the cost of Government by their own act? All the indications are that the Government do not mean a thing they are saying to the people. That is the impression they have left on the public mind by their actions and words up to this. This proposition before the House to-day will reinforce the members of the public in that opinion.

The Government are only pretending when they profess concern about the state of the country. They do not care how many people their policy may disemploy. Again, to-morrow, after they have passed this motion and made this appointment, they will issue more directions that will put hundreds of people out of work and they will think that the people will take them seriously when they come to justify these dismissals on the grounds of economy. It was possible to carry on Government up to 1954, and to do it much better than it has been done by this Government, with a much smaller number of Ministers and Parliametnary Secretaries. Why can it not be done now? The only answer is, and the Taoiseach knows it, that half a dozen of his Ministers are not worth their positions. Not merely can he make a place for Deputy Lindsay but he can improve the whole administration of the country by getting rid of them and appointing in their stead those who are available to him, sitting behind him at this moment, to these posts and make some effort to carry on properly. One of the curses of the Coalition Government is that the Taoiseach has no choice of selection in his Ministers.

The Taoiseach

A Cheann Comhairle, is this in order?

Mr. Lemass

I will say that another day. Everybody knows that the Taoiseach had not got the personal selection of Ministers on the basis of getting the best people for the job. We will let this motion pass without opposition if the Taoiseach will get rid of two or three of his other Ministers at the same time.

Mr. Smith

Democracy in action.

Mr. Blaney

I am in entire agreement with what has been said in regard to the addition of an extra Minister in the present Cabinet. I am afraid I am not in agreement with the personal opinion of Deputy Lemass regarding the present man who is before this House as being more suitable than three-quarters of the Government at the moment. The fact is that, while he may not turn out the worst, the least you can say is that he will not turn out the worst of a very bad lot. To-day we have on all sides a reduction in the amount of expenditure and a reduction in the amount of work done throughout the country. We have, in fact, the future being painted at the moment of very little work being done in the various Government Departments by the people now employed to do the planning and administration work in those Departments. While that is the case, I fail to see why we should be burdened by the cost of an additional Minister, much though we may agree with the idea of a Minister given over to the sole charge of the Gaeltacht Department. Again, I wonder whether or not Deputy Lindsay is a proper selection in this case. There are several other Ministries in the Cabinet, if some place had to be found for him, where he would be much more acceptable and likely to do better work.

I should like to draw the attention of the House to a quotation from a speech made by Deputy Lindsay on the question of Irish, on July 7th, 1955, in this House. In Volume 152, column 410, of the Official Reports, he says:—

"The introduction of Irish, with the intensity with which it was introduced has had a deteriorating effect on our people's knowledge of English. I see no future for the Irish language as a spoken language unless bilingualism is going to flourish."

The main theme about that particular output is that he sees no future for the Irish language as a spoken language, according to his own statements in this House only a few months ago. If that is so, and that was his then opinion, how can any Government sponsor his appointment to-day as the Minister to look after the interests of the Gaeltacht, for without the Gaelic language it could not be called a Gaeltacht. Is it not also true that Deputy Lindsay is not acceptable to the Gaeltacht people? If any immediate proof of that is required, is it not true that the Gaeltacht area from which he comes himself did not see fit to select him even as a county councillor in 1951, when he stood for that area?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That has no connection with the matter.

Mr. Blaney

I bow to your ruling, Sir, but I feel that if the people of his own area did not see fit to elect him, we cannot consider him a suitable candidate to run the Gaeltacht Ministry.

I wonder what has prompted the introduction of this Deputy to control this Ministry, which can be of vital importance to the future of our Gaeltacht areas. Surely there are in the Party to which the Deputy belongs many people who have given quite a part of their lives to the advancement of the Gaelic language and Gaelic ideas and to easing the congestion in Gaeltacht areas. Why is it then that those people must be passed over if we must have another Minister and another Ministry? Why could not we have some of those people who are sitting behind the Front Bench and who are not even considered worthy to sit on the Front Bench? To-day when we have a credit squeeze in all directions and when we should be getting a lead, how can we justify or stand over the various circulars sent to the local authorities asking us to try to put across the spirit of conserving capital and of cutting down on various unnecessary schemes in order that the finances of this country can be brought to a fairly satisfactory state? How could we do that when at the same time we have a proposal for another Ministry, with all its attendant cost? It is outlandish to find the Government crying out for economy and, at the same time, coming before the people of this country and saying: "We want another Ministry and we are not going to cut down on the number we already have." There is quite a good reason why some of the present Ministers could be left more or less on the dole. They have very little to do and judging from what we have heard and the cuts we have seen in the public moneys for some time to come, they will have less.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot discuss other Ministries on this motion.

Mr. Blaney

I am not trying to discuss other Ministries; I am trying to point out that we are already spending unnecessarily on unnecessary Ministers and on inefficient Ministers, and here we add another who, to my mind, will be very little better, and possibly worse, than what we have already.

Deputy Lindsay is not an acceptable person to operate this Ministry. He may be qualified in other directions, but there are behind the Government men who have given years of service to the Government. This Department is going to embrace quite a bit of the various functions of many Departments and that is why I believe it is fundamental that the man appointed to look after this Ministry should be of some experience, who will fully comprehend the workings of the various Departments. Deputy Lindsay has not got that experience and it is a question of foisting a greenhorn on this Assembly as Minister for the Gaeltacht. There is no question or doubt about it. I can see nothing whatever to commend this motion to appoint Deputy Lindsay to this new Ministry. It is an unheard of thing and it is something we should oppose because it is not true economy, it is not giving us the best man for the job and it is not giving us any hope now or in the future that we will get value for money under this new Ministry.

I also want to point out something that appeared in the Press last Sunday in the form of a letter from Deputy Lindsay. He was referring to the Gaeltacht Areas Order and to some action which I had taken at an earlier date. In the course of that letter——

The Taoiseach

Surely this is not relevant.

Mr. Blaney

He referred in a sarcastic manner to the fact that the telegram I sent to the new Minister——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This has no bearing whatever on the motion before the House. Anything the Parliamentary Secretary said last week does not arise.

Mr. Blaney

I am afraid it does and I will show you where it does.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair is ruling that it has nothing to do with the motion before the House.

Mr. Blaney

That letter was written in English and the sarcastic remark contained in it referred to the fact that I sent a telegram in English about the Gaeltacht Areas Order.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What the Parliamentary Secretary said last week is not open to discussion.

Mr. Blaney

Surely what the Parliamentary Secretary said about the language 12 months ago is?

Mr. O'Sullivan

On a point of order. Has the Chair ruled?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled——

Mr. O'Sullivan

Then I would point out to the Chair that its ruling has been flouted.

Mr. de Valera

Surely it is in order if a person is being appointed to a public Ministry to indicate what his attitude towards that Ministry is?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair has not intervened because of any remark Deputy Blaney made in that regard. The Chair has intervened because Deputy Blaney is referring to a letter which appeared in Sunday's Press which is merely a private matter between Deputy Blaney and the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Blaney

It is not a private matter. I regarded it as a public duty and not as a private matter. There was no vendetta between myself and the Parliamentary Secretary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I take it Deputy Blaney is referring to the limitation of the Gaeltacht. That may not be discussed on this motion which deals with the appointment of Deputy Lindsay as a member of the Government.

Mr. Blaney

I am not introducing, and I did not try to introduce, any question as to the limitation of the Gaeltacht Areas Order. What I was pointing out was that in the Minister's most recent public pronouncement regarding the future of the Gaeltacht he saw fit to write in English——

Mr. O'Sullivan

May I point out, Sir, that you have already ruled in relation to this matter?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Parliamentary Secretary would allow Deputy Blaney to finish his explanation, the Chair might be in a better position to rule.

Mr. Blaney

What I tried to point out was this. Deputy Lindsay, as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Education and the Gaeltacht, in writing a letter in connection with the functions of the new Ministry, saw fit in that letter to refer sarcastically to the writing and sending of a telegram by me in English——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How does that arise on this motion?

Mr. Blaney

That is what I am coming to. At the same time, he writes that letter in English and signs it in English. That is what I want to get across.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I feel that Deputy Blaney has aired his grievance sufficiently.

Mr. Blaney

The main remark—if I were pushed I could go a little bit further back to some of the ideas and public pronouncements on Irish we have been given by Deputy Lindsay, the Parliamentary Secretary, but I will not go further back—the main remark, the one that really counts and that is of importance, is that recorded in this House and spoken by him 15 months ago. We are appointing as Minister for the Gaeltacht a man who said in this House in a debate that he sees no future in the Irish language as a spoken language.

General Mulcahy

That is absolutely untrue.

Mr. Blaney

I gave the date, and I gave the column, and I gave the volume.

General Mulcahy

The Deputy is now taking part of it out of its context.

Mr. Blaney

"I see no future for the Irish language as the spoken language, unless bilingualism is going to flourish." Is that satisfactory; is that the full context?

General Mulcahy

Is it the Deputy's idea that English must be hunted out of the country?

Mr. Blaney

Does the Minister for Education agree with those sentiments? Does the Minister and the Government agree that a person with such views is the proper person to be in charge of the new Gaeltacht Ministry; that Deputy Lindsay will foster Irish and look after the interests of the residents of that area? I say such a person is not suitable. In addition, there are people behind the present Government, sitting in the benches there, who are more suitable. We fail to see why some one of those people should not have been appointed and Deputy Lindsay moved into some other Department. There are various Departments where he could carry on work which is not being carried on too well at the moment.

Last, but by no means least, is the fact that we are going to spend additional money at the very headquarters, at the very fountain-head of our whole national resources and economy, that we are going to spend that money on a new Ministry with all its attendant costs, while, at the same time, due to the reduction of public expenditure on necessary work, we are chasing hundreds of people out of this country and putting more people on the dole at the same time. I think it is a disgrace, and I believe the people of this country think it is a disgrace also.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin;

Tá iarrtha sa tairiscint seo glacadh le hAire nua. Tá sé réasúnta ar an taobh seo den Teach an cheist do phlé: céard iad na dualgais a comhlíonfar. Cuireadh ceisteanna le dhá bhlian go leith anuas ar an Aire Oideachais, go speisialta, faoi bhunú na hAireachta seo. Dúirt sé i bhfreagra a thug sé orm féin sa Teach seo go mb'éigin dóibh dian-smaoineadh a dhéanamh ar an gceist seo sul a bhféadfaí fiú amháin an Aireacht a chur ar bun. Bhí an Rialtas beagnach dhá bhliain in oifig nuair a thug sé an freagra sin.

Nuair a bhí an Aireacht á cur ar bun, cuireadh ceist ar an Aire a bhí i bhfeighil an Bhille—an tAire Oideachais —agus dúirt sé gurab shin é díreach an fáth go raibh an Aireacht dá cur ar bun, le go bhfaighfí amach céard iad na dualgais a bheadh le comhlíonadh ag an Aireacht. B'fhéidir go raibh réasún éigin leis sin. B'fhearr liom go mbeadh an capall curtha roimh an charr ná go mbeadh an capall i bhfad taobh thiar den charr agus is cosúil go bhfuil an capall i bhfad taobh thiar den charr i gcónúí, mar anois, agus sé mhí eile curtha dinn, níl aoinne i ndon insint dúinn céard iad na dualgais atá le comhlíonadh. Ina leaba sin, tá mí-chúirtéis caite leis an Dáil ag an Rialtas, go mór mhór ag an Aire Oideachais. Chuir mé féin ceist air cúpla babhta sa Teach seo agus luaigh mé seirbhísí faoi leith, ar nós Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta, deontas na Gaeilge do na páistí scoile, agus mar sin de, agus ní raibh sé i ndon a rá an dtiocfaidis faoi scáth na hAireachta.

Feicim anois ar Riar na hOibre inniu go bhfuil ceist ann a bhaineas le Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta, d'Aire na Gaeltachta, agus is dóigh go bhfuil an rannóg sin faoina scáth i ngan fhios dúinn. Tá fhios agam nuair a bhíonn orduithe déanta ag an Rialtas go bhfógraítear ar Pháipéir na Dála iad agus is féidir le Teachta Dála dul síos go dtí an leabharlann agus breathnú orthu. Cheapas go mbeadh an tAire Oideachais agus Aire na Gaeltachta, mar a bhí ann go dtí inniu, cúirtéiseach leis an Dáil agus go gcuirfeadh sé chuig na Teachtaí, i gcóir na díospóireachta seo, cuile ordú atá, déanta aige a bhaineas le bunú Aireacht na Gaeltachta. Níl fhios agam an inseoidh an tAire inniu cé mhéid orduithe atá déanta aige.

Bhí díospóireacht ar nuachtán idir an Teachta Ó Bléine agus an Teachta Mac Loingsigh faoi Ordú Límistéirí na Gaeltachta. Bhfuil aon ordú eile ann? Má, tá, tuige nár cuireadh cóip de chuig gach Teachta ós rud é go raibh an tairiscint seo le teacht ós comhair na Dála inniu?

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Cad é an bhaint atá aige sin leis an díospóireacht atá, ar siúl anois?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Mar dúirt mé cheana, níl baint ar bith ag an gceist sin leis an tairiscint atá ós comhair na Dála.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Ceist agam ort faoi sin—tá iarrtha ar an Dáil sa tairiscint seo Aire nua a cheapadh agus níor cuireadh in iúl dúinn—ach ar nós cuma-liom—gurab é Aire na Gaeltachta a bhí i gceist. Is cuma maidir leis an bpointe sin; ach nach bhfuil sé réasúnta ceist a chur ar an Rialtas nuair atá iarrtha aca ar an Dáil Aire nua a cheapadh, ceist a chur orthu céard iad na dualgais a bheas ar an Aire, céard é an obair a dhéanfaidh an tAire sin. Sin í mo cheist ortsa, nó an féidir leis an Aire í fhreagairt?

Mar dúirt mé, tá an Rialtas ag útamáil leis an gceist seo le dhá bhliain go leith. Dian-smaoineadh a bhí le déanamh sé mhí ó shin, do réir an Aire Oideachais, cé go raibh an cheist seo ar cheann den dá Coalition tar éis an a bhí ar Chlár an Coalition tar éis an Toghcháin dhá bhliain ó shin. Má bhí an phlean chomh fada sin chun cinn dhá bhliain ó shin, nach gceapfadh aoinne go bhféadfadh aon duine a bhfuil baint aige leis an Rialtas eolas a thabhairt dúinn i gceann dhá bhlian go leith céard iad na dualgais a bheas le comhlíonadh ag an Aire. Níl ach an t-aon rud amháin ceaptha fós, go bhfios dómhsa, is é sin, na ceantracha a háireofar a bheith sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht feasta ach, ar ndóigh, bhí an t-eolas sin againn le fada an lá, muna raibh foirmiúlacht oifigiúil ag baint leis féin. Bhí an t-eolas sin bainte amach ag eagrais eile. Bhí an obair sin déanta in aisce ag daoine taobh amuigh, agus níor ghá d'aoinne fiu lá amháin a chaitheamh chun na ceantracha sin a phiocadh amach. Bhí an t-eolas sin faighte amach cheana. Tá mí-chúirtéis caite ag an Aire Oideachais leis an Dáil, gan aon tuairisc faoi dualgais na h-Aireachta a thabhairt di.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Níl aon bhaint in aon chor ag an gcaint sin leis an obair atá ar siúl, ná ag aon ní a deineadh nó nár deineadh.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Nach bhfuil?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Mar dúirt mé cheana, níl obair an Aire ós comhair na Dála.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Stopfaidh mé laithreach má abrann tú liom nach hfuil cead ná ceart ná réasún ag aon Teachta a chuirfeadh ceist ar an Rialtas cad é an obair a bhéas le déanamh ag an Aire atá á cheapadh. Sin í mo cheist.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Bhfuil an Teachta réidh?

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Níl mé réidh. Tá mé réidh má abrann tú liomsa nach bhfuil sé ceart ná ceadmhach ná réasúnta ceist a chur faoin obair a dhéanfas an tAire Gaeltachta sa Rialtas. Sin í mo cheist agus má tá sé sin as bealach feictear domhsa gur ceart athrú a dhéanamh ar Bhuan-Orduithe an Tí.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ní thig liom eolas a thabhairt don Teachta. Caithfidh duine eile sa Teach freagra a thabhairt ar an gceist maidir leis an obair a bheas le déanamh ag an Aire nua.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Níl mé ag iarraidh ortsa a rá liom céard é an obair a déanfar. Is í an cheist atá mé a chur ortsa ná, an bhfuil cead agus ceart ag Teachta an cheist a chur ar an Rialtas?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Níl ceart ag an Teachta an cheist sin a chur? Chuir an Teachta an cheist sin sé huaire.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Ba mhaith liom é seo a thuiscint....

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Ba mhaith liom eolas a thabhairt don Teachta nuair a bheidh an tráth oiriúnach chuige.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Tuige an bhfuil an tAire ag cur isteach orm?

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Níl aon bhaint ag an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta leis an obair atá ar siúl.

Eamon de Valéra

Ná habair é sin. Cinnte tá, baint chinnte.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Tá sé de chead agam ceist a chur a bhaineas le hordú agus tá sí curtha agam.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Dúirt mé cheana go raibh mí-chúirtéis caite ag an Aire leis an Dáil ceal tuairisce Feicim arís go bhfuil fonn air mí-chúirtéis a chaitheamh leis an Dáil. Tá sé ag iarraidh a insint don Leas-Cheann Comhairle céard é a dhualgas sin sa rud seo.

Nuair a bhí an Aireacht seo dá bunú, dúirt muid, agus tá sé ráite arís inniu, go raibh díomá orainn nuair nach raibh Aire faoi leith i bhfeighil na Gaeltachta. Is é an fáth ná go bhfacthas dúinn, agus gur cuireadh i dtuiscint dúinn ag an Rialtas, go raibh sár-obair le déanamh don Ghaeltacht nach raibh beartaithe ag Fianna Fáil riamh air, go raibh pleananna acu nár smaoinigh Fianna Fáil orthu riamh agus go raibh córas oibre acu nár tháinig isteach in intinn Fianna Fáil ar chor ar bith.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Bhfuil seo in ordú?

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Ní dóigh liom go dteastaíonn aon chabhair uaitse, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, chun na rialacha a chur i bhfeidhm. Táim cinnte, má bhím as bealach, go gcuirfidh tú é sin in iúl dom. Tugadh le tuiscint dúinn go raibh sár-obair ceaptha amach ag an Rialtas. Chuireadar Bille tríd an Dáil sé mhí ó shin agus dúirt an tAire go raibh dian-smaoineamh agus machnamh á dhéanamh acu.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Bhfuil sé in ord na pointí a chur ar siúl atá ar siúl ag an Teachta faoi láthair?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tá an Teachta in ord sa méid atá ráite aige.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Deineadh ordú cheana nach raibh sé in ord bheith ag cur síos ar chúrsaí riaracháin na Roinne.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tá sin ceart.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Rinne mé agóid cheana in aghaidh an cleasaíocht atá ar siúl ag an Aire Oideachais. Níl mise ag cur síos go cruinn ar chúrsaí riaracháin faoín Aire seo. Táimse ag iarraidh a fháil amach cén saghas oibre a bheas ar siúl. Tá difir mór idir an cheist seo agus bheith ag cur síos ar na rudaí nach bhfuil ar eolas againn.

Cheana féin ní raibh eolas ag an Aire ach i dtaobh límistéirí na Gaeltachta agus má tá aon cheo eolais eile ag an Aire Oideachais nár dúradh linn agus an Aireacht dá bunú faoi sílim go bhfuil mí-chúirtéiseacht caite aige leis an Dáil, gan é a chur in iúl.

Mar dúirt mé tá útamálaíocht ar bun faoin gceist seo le dhá bhliain go leith, agus mar adúirt an Teachta Seán Ó Loinsigh ní raibh ann ach ag cur Aire in áit Rúnaí Parlaiminte. Bhí díomá orainn nuair a chualamar nach raibh Aire faoí leith á cheapadh le haghaidh na Gaeltachta agus bhí mé ag cur síos ar an bhfáth go raibh an díomá sin orainn. Tugadh le tuiscint dúinn go raibh pleananna agus córas oibre ag an Rialtas leis an nGaeltacht a shábháil agus a chur chun cinn seachas mar bhí ag Fianna Fáil agus má bhí pleananna chomh maith sin acu b'fhacthas dúinn gur mór an trua dá gcuirfí aon bhac ar na pleananna sin cheal Aireachta agus Aire. Tá an Aireacht agus an tAire anois ann, ach céard faoi na pleananna?

Thagair an Teachta Niall Bléine do fheiliúnacht an Teachta don phost agus rinne an tAire Oideachais tagairt don Bhéarla agus don dhá-theangachas. Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur ar an Aire Oideachais. Cén tuairim atá aige féin i dtaobh an dá-theangachais? Bhfuil sé ag dul ag rá le Muintir na Gaeltachta, le Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge, gurb é an dá-theangachas an polasaí a bheas ann. Is cinnte go bhfuil caighdeán maireachtála na Gaeltachta gafa suas ar fad, go mór mhór ó tháinig Fianna Fáil i gcomhacht os cionn fiche bliain ó shin.

Pádraic Ó Domhnaill

Cad chuige é sin?

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Sé an chéad fháth, go ndearna an córas leasa shóisialaigh níos mó tairbhe don Ghaeltacht ná aon cheo eile atá déanta. An gceapann an tAire Rialtais Aitiúil go mbeadh an Ghaeltacht chomh fairsing is atá sé anois marach an córas leasa shóisialaigh.

Ní cheapaim gur cheart do dhuine ar bith sa tír seo a bhfuil baint údarásach aige leis an nGaeilge nó le athbheochaint na Gaeilge a rá gur polasaí dhá-theangach a bheas ag an Roinn nua seo. Deirtear gur tús maith leath na hoibre, ach is tús thar a bheith dona é seo. Ba cheart go ndéanfadh an tAire ceartú ar an bpoinnte seo chomh luath agus is féidir sa chaoi nach mbeidh aon dalladh mullóg ar intinn na ndaoine sa nGaeltacht. Tá an dubhshraith leagtha cheana féin ag an bhfear a bhí mar Aire ar an Roinn nua seo agus atá mar Aire ar an Roinn Oideachais. Nár dhúirt sé nach mbeadh aon bhaint aige leis na daoine i gContae an Chláir ós rud é nach raibh an teanga acu, gurb í an Ghaeilge céad dualgas an Aire nua?

Más é a mhalairt de scéal atá anois aige, cén fáth a ndearna sé an tagairt sin do mhuintir an Chláir? Más í an Ghaeilge an príomh-chúram atá ag an Roinn nua seo, nach ait an rud a rá gur beartas dhá-theangach a bheas ag an Roinn? Ba cheart go mbeadh súil againn go mbeadh an Ghaeilge, mar phríomh-theanga againn sa tír seo i gceann tamaill, agus muna bhfuil an dearcadh sin ag an Roinn nua seo ní dhéanfaidh sé mórán maitheasa don Ghaeilge. Sin é tuairim formhór na ndaoine sa tír seo, na daoine taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht a bhfuil spéis acu sa teangain. Tá súil láidir acu go mbeidh an Ghaeilge mar phríomh-theanga sa tír seo agus go mbeidh an Béarla ina dara teanga.

Ba cheart go leanfadh an Rialtas seo leis an obair a thosnuigh Rialtas Fianna Fáil roimhe seo. Cé'n chaoi ar féidir leis an Rialtas an dá intinn seo a réiteach lena chéile—gurb í an Ghaeilge an príomh-dhualgas ar taobh amháin, agus, ar an taobh eile, a rá go mbeidh an Béarla ar aondul leis an nGaeilge? Aon duine údarásach a deireann é sin, agus a dhéanann iarracht an dá intinn sin a réiteach, níl sé feiliúnach don obair seo, fiú amháin más é an tAire Oideachais é féin a deireann é.

Tá díomá mór orainn nach bhfuil tuar le feiscint de na pleananna nó den chóras mór a bhí ag an Aire Oideachais chun an Ghaeltacht a shábháil. Sé a mhalairt de scéal atá againn, ón am a tháinig an Rialtas seo isteach. Tar éis dhá bhliain go leith ba cheart go mbeadh sé ar chumas an Aire Oideachais a rá linn cén beartas nó cén córas oibre atá leagtha amach aige. Faraor, níl an t-eolas sin le fáil. Tá fhios againn cé na ceanntair a thagas isteach faoin Roinn nua seo. Ach bhí an t-eolas sin againn cheana féin, nó bhí sé ag aoinne a raibh suim dá laghad aige sa gceist seo. Níl an Rialtas seo ach ag útamáil leis an scéal ó tháinig siad isteach. Dá mbeadh aon bheart acu chun obair a dhéanamh ní bheadh aon údar cleamhsáin agamsa anseo anocht. Ba cheart go gcuirfeadh an Rialtas in iúl do na Teachtaí, go mór-mhór do na Teachtaí a bhfuil baint acu leis an nGaeltacht, céard tá beartaithe.

Donnchadha Ó Briain

Maidir leis an tairiscint seo chun Aire breise a chur isteach san Rialtas, táimid ina choinne mar ceapaimíd go bhfuil ár ndóthain againn cheana. Ba cheart go mbeadh an Taoiseach i ndon ath-chóiriú a dhéanamh ar na hAirí atá aige sa gcaoi go mbeadh an Rialtas i ndon gnó na hAireachta nua a dhéanamh tré cheann de na hAirí sin. Ceart go leor, tá an rogha na nAirí go dona os rud é go bhfuil easba Gaeilge ar an Rialtas.

Cuirim-se i gcoinne na tairiscinte seo freisin toisc go gcuireann sí le costas an Rialtais mar is tairiscint í nach bhfuil riachtanach. Maidir leis an bhfear atá ceapaithe, tá fadhbh eile le réiteach ansin. Is duine mise a raibh dlúth-bhaint aige leis an nGaeilge, a bhfuil dlúth-bhaint fós agam léi agus ag a mbeidh go rachaidh mé i gcré. Tá aithne agam ar na daoine a bhfuil dlúth-bhaint acu le hobair na Gaeltachta, ní hé amháin in mo cheantar féin ach ar fud na tíre. Tá aithne agam ar na daoine ar fud na tíre atá ag obair go dícheallach, dúthrachtach in athbheocaint na teangan. Ach níor chuala mé riamh go raibh dlúth-bhaint ag an bhfear atá ainmnithe anseo inniu leis an nGaeilge.

Sé an príomh rud atá riachtanach don duine a ceapfar mar Aire ar an Roinn seo go mbeadh cruinn-eolas aige ar an nGaeltacht agus ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Táim in amhras go bhfuil na tréithe riachtanacha ag an bhfear atá in aigne an Taoisigh a cheapadh don phost seo. Tá caint i dtaobh na hAireachta seo a chur ar bun le blianta beaga anuas. Nuair a tháinig tairiscint an Rialtais os cóir na Dála chun an Aireacht seo a bhunú, cé go rabhamar in amhras faoin scéal, d'aontaíomar leis ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht agus leis an tír. Ach fé mar adúirt an Teachta Mac Pharthaláin, do thóg sé an-fhada ar an Rialtas a aigne a dhíriú ar an gceist, agus tá tuairim láidir agam nach bhfuil tuairim dá laghad acu i dtaobh plean, scéim nó eagraíocht chun an obair a bheadh le déanamh a dhéanamh i gceart.

Is í an Aireacht seo ceann de na hAireachtaí is tábhachtaí sa Rialtas, dar liomsa, mar gheall ar chomh dian is a bheas an obair agus a thábhachtaí atá sé aon obair fhónta a dhéanamh nó aon scéim fhónta a chur ag obair maidir le leas na Gaeltachta.

Ar an gcead dul síos, tá ceist na Gaeilge féin tábhachtach. Mura bhfuil beartaithe ag an Rialtas go mbeidh an Roinn seo Gaelach ó bhun go barr; muna bhfuil beartaithe ag an Rialtas gnó na Roinne a dhéanamh ar fad i nGaeilge, agus muna bhfuil beartaithe acu an Ghaeilge d'úsáid leis an bpobal ar an taobh amuigh, beidh thiar air agus ar an Aireacht.

Tugaidís an deá-shampla maidir le húsáid na Gaeilge agus caithfidh an Aireacht an deá-shampla sin a thabhairt. Ón gcruthú atá againn mar gheall ar an bhfear atá ainmnithe don phost, níl mé sásta go bhfuil sé, mar dhuine, ábalta ar an obair a dhéanamh mar ba cheart í a dhéanamh. Sin é mo thuairim agus tuairim a lán daoine eile.

Dob fhéidir leis an Taoiseach an Aireacht seo a chur faoi chúram duine eile a bhfuil níos mó eolais agus taithi aige ar an nGaeltacht agus an Ghaeilge. Cad'na thaobh ná tabharfaí é don Teachta Ua Maolchatha, an tAire Oideachais? Admhaím go mbeadh sé deacair fear oiriúnach eile d'fháil chun é chur sa Roinn Oideachais ina ionad. Admhaím, leis, gurab é cúram an Taoisigh, maidir le ceist den tsaghas seo, duine a ainimniú mar Aire do réir an Bhunreachta agus níl sé ach ag cur leis an dualgas sin.

Ach tá scéal eile ann. An bhfuil an duine atá ceaptha oiriúnach don phost? Dála an scéil, níor ghá Aire nua sa mbreis a cheapadh in aon chor ag féachaint don méid cainte a chualamar ó bhaill an Rialtais mar gheall ar a thábhachtaí is atá sé airgead a shábháil. Féachann sé aisteach ar fad go dtiocfadh an Taoiseach isteach sa Dáil ag iarraidh cur leis an gcostas atá cheana ar an tír mar gheall ar an Rialtas do choimeád ar siúl. Admhaím nach bhfuil ann ach mion-rud i gcomórtas leis na milliúin púnt eile a caitear. San am chéanna, áfach, do bheadh an deá-shampla dhá thabhairt dá gceapfadh an Taoiseach gléas eile agus an post atá le líonadh a líonadh le duine de na hAiri atá ann cheana féin. Ba chuma liom-sa cé ceapfaí, cé acu dlíodóir, múinteoir, feírmeoir, nó gabha a bheadh ann dá mbeinn cinnte go mbeadh na tréithe oiriúnacha aige atá riachtanach le haghaidh an phoist.

Táimid go léir sa Teach seo ar aon-aigne nó in ainm a bheith ar aon aigne, mar gheall ar chomh tábhachtach is atá sé an Ghaeilge d'aithbheochaint. Níl mise sásta leis na tuairimí mar gheall ar an nGaeilge atá nochtaithe ag an duine a hainmníodh. Níl mé sásta go bhfuil sé dáiríre agus dúthrachtach maidir le haithbheochaint na Gaeilge. Dá bhrí sin, ní dóigh liom—is oth liom go bhfuil sé orm é seo a rá, ach is fearr tuairim a nochtadh do réir má tá sé in aigne dhuine—go bhfuil an fear a hainmníodh oiriúnach. Támuid ag cur i gcoinne na tairiscinte seo atá curtha os cóir na Dála inniu ag an Taoiseach.

Mr. McQuillan

The mentality and outlook displayed by this Government in connection with this appointment can best be summed up in that old saying: "Do not do as I do, but do as I tell you." Several speakers have already pointed out that this Government has lost no time and left no avenue unexplored in trying to bring home to the public both the desirability and the absolute necessity for that same public saving at all costs. Deputies and the public are aware that vast sums of money are being expended in publicity drives in our daily papers, and elsewhere, in order to bring home to the people how serious the financial situation is as far as the Government is concerned. We even have the picture painted and the description given of young children down the country saving their pennies and tuppences as a result of this nation-wide appeal by the Government to save.

Yet, the very first day the Dáil reassembles, the very first measure that comes before the House for decision is one which will increase expenditure so far as the Government is concerned. If any justification can be made that this expenditure would in fact prove of benefit to this mythical place known as the Gaeltacht, then I would be the last to criticise the motion before the House for the appointment of Deputy Lindsay as Minister for the Gaeltacht. I want to be quite clear on this. I want to be quite fair to Deputy Lindsay. What I have to offer here is not offered in personal criticism of him. As far as Deputy Lindsay is concerned, I have no objection whatever to his appointment to any office. But I am opposed to the principle of this appointment for a number of reasons.

I am opposed to it because I think it is unrealistic at the present time to take steps that should have been taken 30 years ago. Even if such steps had been taken 30 years ago it is doubtful if they would have proved successful at that particular period. To envisage at this stage taking action that might have had some hope of success 30 years ago—and that is open to doubt—is an unrealistic approach, and it is unfair both to the people of the Gaeltacht and to the nation as a whole. This is a matter of perpetuating a type of "Cloud Cuckoo Land" so far as the Gaeltacht is concerned.

The Taoiseach

Does this not go into the question as to whether the Act that set up this Ministry should or should not have been passed? That Act was passed unanimously by this House.

Mr. McQuillan

I have listened to Deputies dealing with bilingualism, and everything else, and I think it is unfair for the Taoiseach at this stage to try to prevent me saying what I have to say.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should know what he has to deal with at the moment: he has to deal with the terms of the motion, and only with the terms of the motion.

Mr. McQuillan

What I want to give the House are the reasons why I believe this particular motion should not be passed.

The Taoiseach

I am not objecting to the Deputy doing that.

Mr. McQuillan

I have no intention of enlarging the scope of this discussion into a general debate as to whether or not the Irish language will be brought into the rest of Ireland, as some Deputies have succeeded in doing in the last hour and a half. I merely want to give my reasons. This Government, the last Government and previous Governments have been flogging a dead horse in connection with this problem of the Gaeltacht.

Mr. Cunningham

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is clearly deviating from the terms of the motion. The Deputy may not discuss the policy of this Government or a previous Government in relation to the Gaeltacht. He may not discuss administration or policy.

Mr. McQuillan

Am I not entitled to suggest that, as a result of the administration of the Gaeltacht in the last few years, this action is now unrealistic.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not discuss administration or policy by a sidewind and he may not discuss the administration of any particular Government in relation to the Gaeltacht or the policy of any particular Government.

Mr. McQuillan

I am entitled to suggest that this action of the Government has come too late.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has already said that. He cannot discuss administration or policy.

Mr. McQuillan

If this is an attempt to prevent me speaking, then I resent it profoundly. I asked a question at the start of the debate and I was told it was out of order. Deputy MacEntee and Deputy de Valera spoke and they were just as much out of order as I was, but they were allowed to speak.

An Ceann Comhairle

Unfortunately, or fortunately, the Deputy is not the authority on order.

Mr. McQuillan

I am not, and I do not suggest I am.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is, and I am indicating to the Deputy that he is not in order on this motion in discussing the policy of any particular Government or the administration of any particular Government in relation to the Gaeltacht. There is another means of doing that, if the Deputy so desires.

Mr. McQuillan

I cannot understand why I am selected as the person who is to be muzzled in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have not selected the Deputy.

Mr. McQuillan

Other Deputies who have spoken have been allowed to ramble at will. I have no intention of rambling. I want to stick to one issue. I am opposing this motion on certain grounds and I have been refused permission to give those grounds.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is allowed all the permission that any Deputy is allowed in terms of relevancy and I will not depart from that.

Mr. McQuillan

I think I am entitled to suggest that this attempt at the appointment of a Minister for the Gaeltacht is unrealistic. The Gaeltacht, as we know it, has dwindled.

An Ceann Comhairle

Surely, the Deputy now sees that he is discussing the Gaeltacht and the policy of Government in respect of the Gaeltacht. That does not arise on this motion. He may not discuss now all the matter that was discussed on the Gaeltacht Bill when it was before the House.

Mr. McQuillan

Am I entitled to suggest——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not ask me what he is entitled to say because he will say what he wants to say in asking me.

Mr. McQuillan

I object to this appointment because I believe that the Minister, good as he may be, will not be in a position to deal with the issues involved in a clear-cut manner. I believe that he will be cutting across a multitude of other Departments and that the result will be chaos in so far as administration and the direction of policy is concerned, not alone in the Gaeltacht areas but in the congested districts as well. If this appointment was for the purpose of embracing the larger areas, known as the congested and undeveloped areas, then I would be the first to support this appointment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now impinging on a Bill that was passed here some time ago and he is now trying to discuss the provisions of that measure on this motion. He may not do that. The Deputy may discuss the terms of the motion, which are:—

"That Dáil Éireann approve the nomination by the Taoiseach of Deputy Patrick James Lindsay for appointment by the President to be a member of the Government."

The Deputy may say why Deputy Lindsay should be appointed or why he thinks he should not be appointed.

Mr. McQuillan

That is what I am trying to do. I am trying to give the reasons I hold why he should not be appointed. I have pointed out quite clearly that I have no personal feeling whatever against Deputy Lindsay. Surely, it is not suggested that the only thing that can be discussed is the suitability, or otherwise, of Deputy Lindsay for appointment. I have made it quite clear that I have no objection to the particular man himself for appointment but, as far as I am concerned, irrespective of what name came before the House in connection with this appointment to-day, I would oppose it on certain grounds; and, with the permission of the Chair, I have been trying to give those grounds to the best of my ability within the scope allowed.

I do not think I shall say now what I was about to say. I shall sit down in protest against the fact that I am the one Deputy who has been singled out in connection with my remarks on the appointment of the Minister for the Gaeltacht. I want to protest in the strongest possible terms against your ruling, a Cheann Comhairle, while every other Deputy was allowed——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a reflection on the impartiality of the Chair. The Deputy may question that only in a regular fashion.

Mr. Traynor

My concern with this motion is mainly on the grounds that it proposes to extend the present Ministry. My objection to that, at the present time, is because of the circumstances in which we exist at the moment. If any confirmation in regard to the seriousness of the situation which confronts our people to-day is required it can be found by reference to the statements broadcast by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance. I think the very fact that the Taoiseach deemed it desirable to have recourse to the broadcasting system in order to convey his views to the whole nation is sufficient justification for my objection to an extension of the Ministry which necessarily means additional expense to be incurred by the nation and to be paid for by the people of the nation.

That is sufficient justification for the attitude which members on this side of the House are taking up with regard to this appointment. Numerous Deputies have spoken and have already made it clear that their objection is not to the appointment of a Minister to deal with the affairs of the Gaeltacht but, in the main, to the extension of the Ministry. I have no doubt that the Gaeltacht would benefit to a very great extent if a Minister could give his whole time to that difficult question but what we must consider is that the setting up of an additional Ministry means, of necessity, the setting up of another Department of State. While Deputy Jack Lynch referred to the fact that there was in his time, at any rate, a very limited staff, I have no doubt that that limited staff would be very considerably augmented by any Minister taking up a post of that kind who intended to deal with its problems in a serious manner.

I have nothing whatever to say to the individual whom it is proposed to appoint. As far as the motion is concerned, it merely proposes that Deputy Lindsay be appointed a member of the Government. We must presume that he is being appointed to the new Ministry. Whether he is competent to deal with that particular situation I am not in a position to say, but in view of the statement which the Taoiseach made over the radio and in view of the fact that his statement was supported by the Tánaiste, the next in rank to the Taoiseach, and that it was further supported by the Minister for Finance, I think there is sufficient evidence that a situation of a serious kind exists here.

What I want to point out is the difficulty of the man and woman in the street in accepting these statements in view of the example which they have been given here to-day through this motion. The Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance stressed in full measure the necessity for economies, the necessity for the ordinary man and woman to forgo personal luxuries in order that the State might recover its former position and in order to relieve the situation to which they referred. What are the people to say when confronted with an example of this kind? It can only be regarded as a contradiction of what has been said over the radio. It is an astonishing situation. The temerity of the Taoiseach in coming to this House to propose an additional Ministry, to increase the present Ministry from 13 to 14 is fantastic, and I think the general public will regard it as such.

I could understand it if the Ministry that is now proposed resulted from the telescoping of one or two other Ministries. We could then say that the Government were making some effort, not to increase or to add to the expenditure which exists at present, but to go about it in the manner in which they have done is, to my mind, bordering on the audacious. That is the only description I can give it. I feel sure the public would understand the establishment of an additional Ministry if that additional Ministry were set up to deal with unemployment and emigration, the twin scourges of this nation at the moment. These are scourges which are being accentuated by the fact that the present Government do not seem capable of dealing with the situation either in regard to unemployment or emigration. If they are capable of dealing with these problems there is no evidence to that effect.

I feel the Taoiseach would be very well advised, before concluding this matter, to read up Volume 103 of the Dáil Debates, where he will find all the solutions to the difficulties which he is facing at the present moment. These solutions came from his own colleagues who were then in opposition. I would strongly recommend the Taoiseach to give serious consideration to these matters before the conclusion of this debate and the recommendation to the President of the appointment of this additional Minister.

Mr. Colley

It is quite clear that, by this motion, this Government has lost all contact with the people of this country and the position that exists in it at the moment. One would be glad to see some further and better steps taken to deal with the Gaeltacht than has hitherto been the case, but I am not at all sure that the appointment of a separate Minister will do that. Apparently the Government consider that the appointment of a separate Minister will do such work, but, nevertheless, surely it would be possible to amalgamate some other two Ministries, as was done under the Fianna Fáil régime, and carry on with the present number of Ministers in the times that exist?

One recalls all we heard about this Government's intention to reduce expenditure and to give us a better time. One recalls the Minister for Finance in his Budget statement and his later statement on the levies and his declarations about the position of this country and of the necessity for everybody to economise and save. When one reads our weekly return on unemployment and observes the figures rising by 1,000 a week, and when one finds that whole families are emigrating owing to the times that exist, then surely it must be agreed that this is not an opportune moment to add a further Ministry to the Government and to bring the number of Ministers up to a total of 14 as against 12 Fianna Fáil Ministers.

The people who now propose to appoint a new Minister were the very people who, in 1946, took a very strong line against increasing the number of Ministers at that time when it became necessary to do so, owing to the growth of social services. The late Deputy Dr. O'Higgins had this to say, as reported in Volume 103, column 1146:—

"Taxation, expenditure, pomp, ceremony and extravagance have reached such a point here that the worms are beginning to turn and that it is not just a case of ‘Ask and you shall receive'."

Apparently, considering the times that are in it to-day as compared with 1946, we could add that that does not apply to Deputy Lindsay.

The present Minister for Lands, then Deputy Blowick, is reported at column 1190 of the same volume as saying: "We seem to be merely creating jobs." I wonder what he thinks to-day, as a member of this Government, about establishing a further Ministry that could be done without at the moment, at the same time carrying on the work of the Gaeltacht. It seems to me that it must take a real hard neck to propose such a thing in present circumstances. Moving around Dublin City, meeting the people and meeting the shopkeepers, one hears nothing but complaints about the times that are in it and of how hard it is to meet one's obligations. There is almost a spirit of despair amongst some of them and yet this is the time that is chosen to bring in a measure such as this. I should certainly like to see improved work done in the Gaeltacht, but I do not think a further Minister is necessary and I feel it is outrageous to bring in a motion now such as the one before us.

The Taoiseach

I do not intend to follow all the so-called arguments that have been put forward in this House to-day to justify the opposition to this proposed appointment. In my opinion, the entire of the Opposition speeches was nothing but political play-acting. Those who have spoken against this proposal have spoken with different voices. We were told by a number of speakers that they are entirely in favour of the appointment of a Minister, but not this Minister, and we were told by a number of others that there is no necessity for the appointment of a Minister at all. The last speaker, Deputy Colley, delivered himself of the profound utterance that there is no necessity to have this Ministry at all at the moment and that the Gaeltacht business could be carried on without it. Again, we find Deputies on the Opposition benches saying that the Deputy proposed to be appointed to this Ministry is supremely competent while others say he is not.

I would remind Deputies that the Bill setting up this Ministry was passed unanimously in this House and became law as recently as the 30th May last. You would think by the talk about economy that the Deputies opposite were so concerned with economy that they would never have been parties to the passing of this Bill at all. This Bill was passed and became law on the 30th May—at a time when there were serious financial and economic difficulties in the country.

Mr. Smith

That did not commit us to an additional Minister.

The Taoiseach

I suggest that the opposition to this motion will be regarded simply as political play-acting and hypocrisy on the part of the Opposition. It would appear from the debates which took place on the Bill to establish the Department of the Gaeltacht that all were in favour of it.

The establishment of the Ministry was proceeded with because it was part of the policy on which this Government was formed. What do I find on July 26th of this year in the debate on my Estimate? Far from the Leader of the Opposition, Deputy de Valera, urging economy on me and my colleagues, he was reproaching this Government for the delay in setting up this Ministry and reproaching us for having only a Parliamentary Secretary and not a full-time Minister. He pointed out the responsibility which would be given to the Minister for Education in the holding of the two posts and he felt that any one of these posts would be sufficient to occupy the full-time energies of any individual.

Mr. Smith

What about Posts and Telegraphs, and Justice, and Social Welfare?

The Taoiseach

Deputy de Valera, who now weeps over this proposal and says he is not in favour of it, said on July 26th in Volume 159, column 1907 of the Official Report:—

"After a couple of years of waiting, we have got it set up and we hope, now it has been set up, that it will get to work rapidly and that we will not have another two years spent in some other organising of machinery."

He was not complaining of setting it up then. He was complaining that the Minister for Education who was going to take on responsibility for both Ministries would be overburdened with work. He is overburdened, I agree. That is one of the reasons why I am asking the House to approve of this motion.

He reproved me for having made temporary arrangements. After I objected to the suggestion that everything was being done as a temporary arrangement, stating that it was not so—in the same volume and column— this is what he said:—

"Two years of it and all we get is a Parliamentary Secretary."

He was complaining that all we had was a Parliamentary Secretary and to-day he comes in and weeps about overburdening the people. It was the day after the announcement that the special levies on imports had been increased. He knew then the serious situation that existed.

Mr. Smith

You have 13 Ministers already.

The Taoiseach

He was in favour of this Bill in April or May and on July 26th, when the levies were increased, he was complaining that all he was getting was a Parliamentary Secretary, and now Deputies have the impudence to pretend that they are in favour of a new Minister but not the expense. Deputy de Valera and some others said they wanted a whole-time Minister and said the Department would be sufficient to occupy the full-time energies of any one Minister. That is what we say. I do not intend to descend to the depths of alleged argument to which Deputy MacEntee descended, as usual, nor the depths to which Deputy Lemass descended. Their arguments were entirely unworthy of occuping the time of this House. Deputy de Valera and some of the others said that they wanted this Ministry. Deputy de Valera in July complained that he only got a Parliamentary Secretary. He did not make any suggestion, as I understood him, as to how we could have a whole-time Ministry and at the same time not have one. The only inference I can find is that you double up some of the Ministers.

Mr. Smith

Hear, hear!

The Taoiseach

It is not as easy to pick a Minister for the Gaeltacht as you might think. It requires a man of particular talents and particular knowledge. It is hypocrisy for Deputies to say that they want a full-time Minister and at the same time are not in favour of the expense involved. It is sheer political play-acting.

I heard Deputy Lynch complaining, in the midst of the chorus, that there was not enough staff. That is more hypocrisy coming from the Opposition Benches. He comes and says that there is not enough staff and that that is one of the reasons he is against appointing a Minister. He said there were only four people in the office and he was against the appointment of the Minister. It was with deliberate intention that a small staff was put in. It was the deliberate intention that this Ministry should cost as little as possible and should not involve any avoidable expense on the people. We took existing civil servants, fully competent, and put them in; we took only two, and they have proved to be extremely competent. Two others were appointed recently. The Minister then in charge of the Department, with the assistance of the Parliamentary Secretary, was going cautiously under my direction. They were spending as little as possible. My direction to them was to have no files in that office. We wanted as little Civil Service procedure as possible. Another Deputy says there is going to be too much staff. The case being made here, as I said, is nothing but sheer hypocrisy.

Some of the Deputies pretended they thought Deputy Lindsay was eminently suitable. Some thought he was suitable in other spheres but not in this. Deputy Lindsay comes from the Mayo Gaeltacht. He was born in the Mayo Gaeltacht, brought up there, and educated in a national school there. He went to a secondary school and to a university, the Gaeltacht University —if I may call it that—University College, Galway, and he had a distinguished career in classics. He obtained an honours degree in Classics, a Master of Arts degree on a thesis in the Irish language and an examination, at the same time, through the medium of Irish, in Ancient Classics. He has been able to carry on his duties as Parliamentary Secretary in conjunction with General Mulcahy, during the summer and autumn entirely through the medium of the Irish language. He is an Irish scholar in the best sense and a man supremely qualified for the post for which such qualifications are so urgently required.

Mr. Derrig

Will the Taoiseach state whether there will be a Supplementary Estimate in connection with this?

The Taoiseach

Another piece of play-acting.

Mr. Derrig

Am I entitled to an answer, a Cheann Comhairle?

The Taoiseach

I gave you an answer.

Mr. Derrig

If the Taoiseach does not want courtesy, we can turn on the other thing.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 67; Níl, 62.

Tá

• Barrett, Stephen D.
• Barry, Richard.
• Beirne, John
• Belton, Jack.
• Blowick, Joseph.
• Burke, James J.
• Byrne, Patrick.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Carew, John.
• Casey, Seán.
• Coburn, George.
• Collins, Seán.
• Coogan, Fintan.
• Cosgrave, Liam.
• Costello, Declan.
• Costello, John A.
• Crotty, Patrick J.
• Crowe, Patrick.
• Deering, Mark.
• Desmond, Daniel.
• Dillon, James M.
• Dockrell, Henry P.
• Dockrell, Maurice E.
• Donegan, Patrick S.
• Donnellan, Michael.
• Everett, James.
• O'Donovan, John.
• O'Hara, Thomas.
• O'Higgins, Michael J.
• O'Higgins, Thomas F.
• O'Reilly, Patrick.
• O'Sullivan, Denis J.
• Palmer, Patrick W.
• Pattison, James P.
• Fagan, Charles.
• Finlay, Thomas A.
• Flanagan, Oliver J.
• Giles, Patrick.
• Hession, James M.
• Hughes, Joseph.
• Kenny, Henry.
• Keyes, Michael.
• Kyne, Thomas A.
• Larkin, Denis.
• Leary, Johnny.
• Lindsay, Patrick J.
• Lynch, Thaddeus.
• McAuliffe, Patrick.
• MacEoin, Seán.
• McGilligan, Patrick.
• McMenamin, Daniel.
• Manley, Timothy.
• Morrissey, Dan.
• Mulcahy, Richard.
• Murphy, Michael P.
• Murphy, William.
• Norton, William.
• O'Carroll, Maureen.
• O'Connor, Kathleen.
• O'Donnell, Patrick.
• Roddy, Joseph.
• Rooney, Eamonn.
• Sheldon, William A.W.
• Spring, Dan.
• Sweetman, Gerard.
• Tully, James.
• Tully, John.

Níl

• Aiken, Frank.
• Allen, Denis.
• Bartley, Gerald.
• Beegan, Patrick.
• Blaney, Neil T.
• Brady, Seán.
• Brennan, Joseph.
• Brennan, Paudge.
• Breslin, Cormac.
• Burke, Patrick J.
• Butler, Bernard.
• Calleary, Phelim A.
• Carter, Frank.
• Childers, Erskine H.
• Colbert, Michael.
• Colley, Harry.
• Collins, James J.
• Corry, Martin J.
• Cotter, Edward.
• Crowley, Tadhg.
• Cunningham, Liam.
• Davern, Michael J.
• Derrig, Thomas.
• de Valera, Eamon.
• de Valera, Vivion.
• Egan, Kieran P.
• Egan, Nicholas.
• Fanning, John.
• Flanagan, Seán.
• Flynn, John.
• Flynn, Stephen.
• Galvin, John.
• Geoghegan, John.
• Gilbride, Eugene.
• Gogan, Richard.
• Harris, Thomas.
• Hilliard, Michael.
• Kelly, Edward.
• Kenneally, William.
• Kennedy, Michael J.
• Killilea, Mark.
• Lahiffe, Robert.
• Lemass, Seán.
• Lynch, Celia.
• Lynch, Jack.
• MacCarthy, Seán.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• MacEntee, Seán.
• McQuillan, John.
• Maguire, Ben.
• Maher, Peadar.
• Moher, John W.
• Mooney, Patrick.
• Moran, Michael.
• Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
• O'Malley, Donough.
• Ormonde, John.
• Ryan, James.
• Ryan, Mary B.
• Sheridan, Michael.
• Smith, Patrick.
• Traynor, Oscar.

Tellers:—Tá: Deputies O'Sullivan and Mrs. O'Carroll; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain an d Hilliard.

Question declared carried.