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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Dec 1956

Vol. 160 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Industrial Grants Bill, 1956—Money Resolution.

I move:—

That for the purpose of any Act of the present session to provide for the making of grants in aid of industrial development in areas other than areas to which the Undeveloped Areas Act, 1952, applies, and to provide for other matters connected with the matters aforesaid it is expedient to authorise:—

(a) the making, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, of grants not exceeding £2,000,000 in the aggregate to the Industrial Development Authority to enable them to perform their functions under such Act;

(b) the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of the expenses incurred by the Minister for Industry and Commerce in carrying such Act into execution.

On this, Sir, I desire to get some guidance from you. You have informed me that you propose to rule out of order an amendment which I have moved to this Bill to delete sub-section (4) of Section 2, which relates to the undeveloped areas, on the ground that the Money Resolution provides that the funds to be provided under this Bill will not be usable in the undeveloped areas. Is it in order for me now, in view of the fact that this Bill is being taken in Committee to-day, by arrangement, to move to amend the Money Resolution so as to permit that amendment of mine to be considered?

If I were to allow the amendment, it would increase the area and therefore put a charge on Government funds.

I do not propose to contest the Chair's ruling in that regard, but the Bill provides for a fund of £2,000,000 to be expended on grants as prescribed in the Bill. I am not proposing to increase the amount of money to be provided, but merely to enable the board which will function under the Bill to use the money in a different way.

The amendment would appear to be against the principle of the Bill even if it did not impose a charge on public funds. I will allow the Deputy to discuss the matter on the Money Resolution.

That will do me just as well, although my difficulty is that I hope to persuade the Minister that my amendment is desirable and I want to see him in a position in which he can accept it. I do not think the Minister has fully appreciated the fact that the exclusion in this Bill of the areas defined in the Undeveloped Areas Act can operate to the detriment of industrial development in that area. It would be quite reasonable to provide that an industrial concern which qualified for financial aid under the Undeveloped Areas Act should not qualify for additional aid under this Bill, but there is the possibility that industrial concerns which we would like to see operating in the West will not qualify for aid under either measure.

When the Undeveloped Areas Act was being debated here, I, as the responsible Minister, made it clear that the intention was, by means of grants given by Foras Tionscal to industrial concerns in the undeveloped areas, to provide against the possibility that a new industrial undertaking there would be at a competitive disadvantage as compared with similar undertakings in the eastern part of the country; and Foras Tionscal was directed to measure the aid they gave in any individual case by reference to the economic disadvantage associated with the selection of a western location.

There were numerous occasions upon which concerns applied to Foras Tionscal for aid under the Act and were refused on the ground that there was no economic disadvantage associated with the western location. The examples I will give are, first of all, a project for the manufacture of ground limestone. The Board contended rightly that ground limestone can only be worked where the limestone is and consequently there could be no other location chosen for that enterprise except the one proposed to be adopted. In other cases, companies proposed to manufacture commodities for sale in the western areas only, furniture for distribution in Mayo, Galway and so forth, or some other commodity which they did not intend should be brought into the more competitive markets of the east, but would be sold only in the western areas. Again, the Board held that as the intention was to develop a market in the west, the right place to put the industry was in the west and there was therefore no competitive disadvantage in putting it there.

There were other cases. There was a printing concern which intended to do a local business in a western area whose application for a grant was rejected on the ground there was no competitive disadvantage in choosing the western location. There is no such restriction put upon the Industrial Development Authority under this Bill. They can give a grant to any industrial concern without any attempt to measure competitive disadvantage, if any, which the industry may have because of location or other circumstances. Consequently, it could happen that a certain type of new industrial project could qualify for a grant under this Bill where a similar undertaking, to be located in the west, could not qualify for a grant under the Undeveloped Areas Act.

In the circumstances, it seems to me desirable to exclude altogether from the scope of this Bill the areas which are designated in the Undeveloped Areas Act and I do not think that there is any disadvantage in giving to the Industrial Development Authority under this Bill the right to consider applications from the western counties where these applications relate to projects which Foras Tionscal, by reason of the limitation put upon them, are unable to consider. If it is thought desirable, a provision could be put in to ensure that a concern which would qualify for a grant under the Undeveloped Areas Act would not qualify for a grant under this Act; but in view of the possibility that there will be concerns which are entitled to apply for aid under neither Act, I think the complete elimination of the western counties from the scope of this Bill is undesirable.

Again, I want to protest as strongly as I possibly can to the Minister in relation to the disastrous effect this measure will have on the West of Ireland. Here, last night, the Minister very cleverly suggested that Deputies like me, who are arguing the case of the West, are, by their arguments, showing a detestation for the rest of the country. That is, of course, quite untrue.

I had hoped to see the Minister introduce a measure here which would be a measure of industrial expansion, not a panic measure such as that introduced here now and for which this Money Resolution is being debated to-day. The Minister is on record as stating that he was as anxious as any other Deputy to see industrial development in the West of Ireland. In the course of a speech here, he stressed the fact that he was worried and perturbed that the Undeveloped Areas Bill, as it then was, would not be of any great benefit to the West. He stressed the point that he believed more appropriate steps should be taken and he suggested that, if he had the responsibility of dealing with the West of Ireland, he would not introduce such a measure as Deputy Lemass was then introducing; he would produce a far better one, a far more practical measure and one that would ensure that, if private enterprise failed in its responsibility, with all the inducements offered to it, Deputy Norton would induce the State itself to interfere through the Industrial Development Authority and start industrial development in the West, instead of private enterprise.

Now the people in the West of Ireland, as a result of that statement, believed that the present Minister was dissatisfied with the Undeveloped Areas Act. When it was introduced, he was of the opinion that it would not give any great benefits to the West, that his view was that legislation should be introduced which would give the State authority to establish industries in the West and, at a later stage, these industries could then be either leased or sold to co-operative groups which would establish themselves in various centres throughout the West of Ireland.

Remembering that that was the view of the Minister then, is it not rather an extraordinary situation to find that he himself should introduce legislation aimed at expanding industrial production, legislation calculated to do harm to the West of Ireland? The Undeveloped Areas Act was passed to entice, if I may use that word, or induce, industrialists to go west of the Shannon. The inducements in the Act were such that the wording of it in many cases, through Civil Service interpretation, prevented almost any attempt at establishing certain industries in the West. Bad as that situation was, the steps the Minister has now taken have made the position infinitely worse.

The Minister has stated that he is anxious to see every part of the country get an opportunity to establish industries. Every Deputy will agree with that. This is not the correct occasion to argue the merits or the advisability of shovelling out public money by way of large State grants to private enterprise, without any tags. If I were to go into that, I would suggest that any such action of deliberately dipping into the public pocket and forking out £40,000 or £50,000 of public money to private enterprise, without any tags, is a most dangerous form of legislation and one that is in direct contradiction of Labour policy.

The Deputy should not pursue that line on the Money Resolution.

I just wanted to make that clear. Seeing, however, that that line of action has now been adopted and remembering that the Undeveloped Areas Act set the example of giving out this money, I presume the present Minister is following in the footsteps of his predecessor in giving the same type of grant to industrial groups over the rest of Ireland. I suggest that the incentive and the attraction that were available to private enterprise in the West under the Undeveloped Areas Act will now disappear as a result of this measure.

It is all very fine for the Minister to say that grants up to 100 per cent. are available for the erection of factories in the West of Ireland under the Undeveloped Areas Act and that grants of up to 50 per cent. are available for the purchase of machinery and the training of personnel. Will the Minister tell me, since the Undeveloped Areas Act was implemented in the West, how many full cost grants of the nature he has suggested here were given to the West of Ireland? Is it not a fact that under this new Bill, which this Money Resolution is to cover, it will be possible for private enterprise to get a grant of up to two-thirds of the cost of starting an industry in places like Dublin and that, in so far as the West of Ireland is concerned, under the Undeveloped Areas Act, no single industrial project has got more than two-thirds up to the present? I have grave doubts if any industrial project got even two-thirds by way of grant.

Does that not prove, therefore, that there is now no incentive and no attraction to private enterprise to go west? Is it not human nature for an industrialist to set up camp in what is, after all, the hub, namely, here in Dublin? I do not want to delay the House on this because I do not think we will get anywhere with it, but I would appeal to the Minister at this stage to give some reassurance to the people in the West that he is prepared to give more than just lip sympathy to their predicament. I would ask him, before he concludes on this measure, to state specifically what plans or programme he has to meet the grave unemployment and emigration problem that exists in the West. What plan has he from the industrial point of view, now that he has introduced this measure which, when it becomes law and comes into operation, will undoubtedly have a disastrous effect on any and every industrial undertaking in the West of Ireland?

As far as I know, the industries set up under the Undeveloped Areas Act got about one-third of the total overall cost. It has been more in some cases but I think that on the average they got about one-third in grants. The provisions of this Bill will now offset the attractiveness of any grants that have been available under the Undeveloped Areas Act.

Without interfering with the proposals enshrined in this Bill, that matter can be remedied. If the present attractiveness is offset by this Bill, then the only thing to do is to increase the amount of the grants given under the previous measure. There is provision in this Bill for a larger percentage of grant than is given by the Department at present. Accordingly, if the Undeveloped Areas Act is to function, is to function properly, and if the West is to get industries, then there must be a departure from the present policy of giving roughly one-third of the total cost.

There are other industries in the West which did not get any contributions from the State because of the fact that there were other such industries in the West previously. Take for instance the manufacture of Donegal homespun. Since 1952, new branches of that industry were set up in the county, new branches which have now entered the export market, the dollar export market at that. They did not qualify for a grant because it was felt that it would be unfair to give them any competitive advantage over similar undertakings that had been established some years ago under their own steam.

I think it is most unfair now to give grants outside the undeveloped areas and at the same time to exclude completely industries that were about to be started in those areas and which will not qualify for grants because they have some of the characteristics of other industries which started since the passing of the Act and which did not get grants. I think that would be most unfair, and if there is provision in this Bill which would permit that to happen it should be remedied. An industry started in the West, which for some reason or other cannot qualify for a grant under the Undeveloped Areas Act, should surely be given the benefits being made available under this measure.

I want to endorse what other Deputies have said about the obvious effects of this measure on previous legislation passed for the benefit of the undeveloped areas. I think we stressed the fact here on the Second Reading that there was no spirit of criticism of the proposals of this Bill in our remarks. It is not that we, representing the undeveloped areas, had any envious feelings toward equivalent help to industries in the better favoured parts of the country, and if the Minister is going on that line I would offer to him, as a very effective reply, that nature itself is the reason. Nature's dispensation is the reason why there was the discrimination, if such it could be called, in the Undeveloped Areas Act. Agriculture is the main activity of the country. The great central plain, the province of Munster and the eastern regions, as we know, have been favoured by nature for the development of agriculture. No such conditions exist over the greater part of the territory west of the Shannon. It is inexplicable, therefore, why this present Minister, who has shown such appreciation of factors in many other spheres, ignores this. I can only conclude that he is deliberately cynical about the effect on these undeveloped areas.

Some years ago, I recall, when there was a choice as to the location of an industry between Kerry and Kildare, the Minister favoured Kildare because he represented Kildare. That was his own statement. If he was speaking as a Deputy, one could understand it but it does indicate that the Minister has not that solicitude for these areas which we would expect in a man in his high position. He did seem to think after the last war that industrialists generally in the country were pretty well supplied with finance to expand their industries. I need not dilate on how he expressed that viewpoint but he was sufficiently eloquent and forceful in his description of the conditions of affairs which he thought existed to indicate that he thought they would not require any assistance by way of legislation to finance any further development which they might conceive.

This is a marked and noticeable change in the attempts which the Coalition have been making for the last two years to show that they were able to go one better than Fianna Fáil. Where we had a Parliamentary Secretary to represent those areas, they were not satisfied until they gave them a Minister. Whether it is the Minister's change or the Government's change I do not know, but certainly there is a very marked change here. There is no question of going one better in respect of the undeveloped areas. Without any formal recantation a measure is brought in whose obvious effect will be to nullify completely the good effects of the Undeveloped Areas Act.

The Undeveloped Areas Act may not have been a spectacular success taking all the undeveloped areas as a unit, but there were spectacular results in certain parts of those areas. While within those areas we may not have had the diffusion of industrial effort which we would have hoped for, industries of a very considerable size and significance were established which would, to some considerable extent, keep migration at least west of the Shannon, and that would have been some achievement. Now the only hope for industrial development in those areas will be wherever very large scale industries will be capable of establishment for an export trade. In so far as the home market and the smaller type of industry are concerned, this Bill spells finis and we have no chance from now on of getting those very valuable smaller class industries which would not urbanise our Gaeltacht areas but would give employment of a permanent character. That development was possible and had shown some signs of giving help under the Undeveloped Areas Act.

If we seem to feel bitter about this we have very good reason for so doing. I do not know whether it is possible for the Minister to have second thoughts about this, whether he would not consider referring this matter to some sort of committee or body, let it be an all-Party committee of this House or some such body, with the aid of the best economic advisers he has got, to try to anticipate and to analyse what its possible effects will be.

I recall to mind, before the passing of the Undeveloped Areas Act, the case of a very interesting project which I had hoped would come to one of the poorest parts of my constituency. It was an industry which would have given employment mainly to girls. At the time there was a very heavy emigration of young girls from those areas to England. The promoters of the project were very interested themselves, from, I should say, patriotic reasons as well as other reasons, in decentralising and coming in to a Gaeltacht district. They examined the project thoroughly and informed me subsequently that they regretted very much their inability to establish the industry in my constituency because of the economic factors which we all know existed before the passing of the Undeveloped Areas Act.

That is one very striking personal experience I have had and I was very gratified when the Undeveloped Areas Act came into existence to remove those handicaps and relieve such patriotic promoters from the economic disabilities which existed. Now the Minister, with a complete disregard of the effects on the achievements and possibilities of that Undeveloped Areas Act, introduces, a measure which will wipe all that out. It is not conceivable that anybody who has £50,000 to invest in an industry in Mullingar, Clonmel or Kildare, will go down to Oughterard or Louisburg with it. I certainly would not expect them to do it. I take it that henceforth all the people west of the Shannon can hope for from the direction of industry as we are now experiencing it is to follow the industries as it is quite obvious that, under this measure, the industries will not go to them.

It is quite true that there are areas in this country which, owing to the changed conditions, are in as poor an economic plight as certain areas provided for in the Undeveloped Areas Act, but, by regulation or by Order, the Minister could have extended the benefits of that Act to these areas. Under that system, I think they stood a better chance and I say so for this reason, that these areas could easily have been pinpointed and concentrated on and the Minister, had he so wished, could have made a regulation applying to these areas in response to any local effort they have been able to make. Now the whole field and the whole country is opened wide by this measure and, in consequence, they have to compete with the whole country. This Bill does not improve the position of these areas at all. Many of them were major military posts and stand more or less in isolation and the change-over was so speedy that in many cases the men have emigrated and the women are working the homes and it is very difficult to get local finance to make the necessary effort to establish industries in these areas. Under the Undeveloped Areas Act, they could get help if the intention was there, more so than under this Bill.

There are a number of such areas in the constituency which I represent, places like Kinsale, Passage West, Bandon and others which are well known to the Minister; but in these areas any effort to establish an industry would have behind it the inspiration that they were getting special consideration from the Minister by reason of their position and plight. Now, as I say, the whole field is open, and, in consequence, their chances are lessened because people setting out to establish industries can select any part of the country and therefore these areas will remain in the position which they have been in for the past number of years.

The Minister has said that more money has been spent by the present Government in the undeveloped areas than by Fianna Fáil. Surely a start had to be made? Fianna Fáil in its three years of office had to put that Act through the House and just about the time there was a chance of operating it favourably, there was a change of Government. Therefore, it is no credit to a succeeding Government to say that they spent more money in their time. That happens in every case and I think the Act itself, and the idea behind it, which was promoted by Deputy Lemass, was, as has been shown, the first favourable sign of a concentration on industrial development along the western seaboard, in what were known as the congested areas and the depressed areas, away from the big centres of population.

The Minister mentioned last night that there were depressed areas for which nothing has been done, and I would ask him if anything can be done for them under this Bill when it becomes an Act. I only hope my forebodings are not proved correct and that these areas, which for so long have been looking for development and which have not got the finances to make much of a local effort, will not now go into the background again and be left there to decay under the new idea, so to speak, of industrial expansion. To my mind, that was already there, in a general way, and there is now only a providing of the help of certain finances for any part of the country that may be selected. In consequence, I have to say that I see no great hopes that the position will be improved for these areas we have in mind. They are depressed, owing to the change-over to national freedom and have been left there, more or less derelict, to decay by reason of lack of local finances and consequently lack of local enterprise. I hope the position for them will change and that the Minister, at any rate, will show that there is some merit in the Bill.

Once again, the members of the Opposition are talking with different voices, clearly indicating that they have a different outlook on the matter. Deputy Bartley spoke without, apparently, hearing what Deputy Lemass said. Deputy Bartley and Deputy MacCarthy say that this Bill will sound the death knell of the Undeveloped Areas Act, a phrase used by Deputy Brennan in the course of this debate. Speaking on the Second Stage of this Bill, Deputy Lemass said at column 1950, Volume 160, of the Official Debates:

"The Minister can have his Bill, as far as I am concerned, but I want to make it clear that, in my view— and I may at some time in the future be empowered to influence Government policy—I think it has no importance whatever in relation to our industrial development."

So while Deputy Lemass approaches it from the standpoint that it makes no difference at all, Deputy Bartley waxes eloquent about its deleterious effect.

Because I think the Minister believes it will have that effect.

That is not true. I never saw such a collection of more distressed travellers for the undeveloped areas than those to whom I have listened here last night and this morning. I never saw so much misery purveyed as by the Deputies who spoke.

Does it not suit the occasion?

Does the Deputy want to make another speech?

It suits the occasion.

I think the undeveloped areas have an attraction. I think the undeveloped areas will have attractions when this Bill is passed and I cannot see why Deputies cannot comprehend the obvious advantages still residing in the western areas. Under the Undeveloped Areas Act, a board administering the funds allocated for the administration of that Act can give promoters of industry 100 per cent. of the cost of buildings and in this Bill the maximum they can get is two-thirds.

Under the Undeveloped Areas Act the promoters can get 50 per cent. of the cost of machinery. Under this Bill they can get nothing. Under the Undeveloped Areas Act they can get a contribution for the training of workers. Under this Bill they get nothing. Therefore, there are clear advantages so far as the undeveloped areas are concerned by locating an industry in those areas.

In any case, there are other parts of the country besides the undeveloped areas—some of those areas to which Deputy MacCarthy refers but at the same time wants to give them nothing. How many places are there outside the undeveloped areas which are as badly off as the undeveloped areas and in some cases worse off than some of the places in the undeveloped areas?

On a point of explanation. I did not say that I wanted to give them nothing. I want the undeveloped areas benefits extended to them by ministerial Order.

If the Deputy was keen on that he could have moved an amendment when the Undeveloped Areas Bill was going through the Dáil.

There was no need.

No amendment is necessary.

Deputy Lemass knows only too well—and students of past speeches can look at his speeches at the time—that the intention of the Undeveloped Areas Act was to delineate a certain portion of the country and say that was the undeveloped area but an effort was made, when the Bill was under discussion, to bring in other areas contiguous to those which constituted the undeveloped areas. If Deputy MacCarthy reads the speech of Deputy Lemass on this, he will see that Deputy Lemass stated that he was not prepared to bring them in but that he would consider what he could do and that if, in certain circumstances, they could get an industry for them it might be possible to apply the benefits of the system to them but no guarantee was given. That was done in particular so far as I can recollect in the case of Cavan, where efforts were made to get certain areas in there but no Deputy from Cavan was produced to say he disliked this Bill.

In fact, the Opposition have virtually excluded our eastern, southern and midland Deputies from participation in this debate. Instead, others have been sent in to wail about the deleterious effects of the Bill which Deputy Lemass, who knows much more than all the others put together, says will have no effect whatever on the western areas.

I did not say that.

The Deputy knows his own words.

I said it would have no effect on the overall industrial development of the country. It undoubtedly weakens the inducement for western development.

Will the Deputy say openly that if there is a county in this country where there is no industrial development, a place which has no chance of industrial development, it is wrong to provide that area with State assistance for the establishment of an industry?

State assistance of the right kind.

Does the Deputy deny the claim of such an area? Let him say "yes" or "no". He cannot straddle two horses.

This will slow down industrial development rather than help it.

If you give them nothing, you encourage industrial development and if you give them money to establish a factory you discourage development?

I think the Deputy will have to explain it to himself. I cannot understand him.

I think time will prove that I am right.

It is easy to understand.

Deputy Cunningham raised a question about Donegal homespun industry. So far as Donegal homespun industry is concerned, of course, the industry has been located in the main in Donegal and no place else or along the western seaboard. So far as the real handwoven tweeds are concerned that is an industry in the main indelibly associated with that portion of the country. I do not think that efforts to establish a similar industry in the East, the Midlands or the South will achieve any measure of success. Deputy Cunningham complained that that industry got no assistance up to now.

Under the Financial (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, passed by the Dáil, that industry for the first time since this State was established will now get a substantial drawback for taxation purposes on its exports over and above a datum year. They never got that before. They are getting it now for the first time and, just when they are getting it, Deputy Cunningham was sent in to bewail the fact that they are getting no assistance. Are they not getting assistance now they never got before in that field? Can that be denied? If they stimulate their exports which I hope they will—their exports are of excellent quality for which a market is available and is always likely to be available—then there are distinct attractions to these firms in exporting a number of their products, since 50 per cent. of the profits on the export trade will for the first time be exempt from income-tax and corporation profits tax.

It may cost £10,000 on the most optimistic estimate.

The Deputy sees no value in the Bill which the Minister for Finance has introduced. I do not think that is a realistic approach.

I do not think the Government has begun to understand it yet.

The Deputy hopes it will confer no benefits. Therefore, he will keep the centre of the stage in this matter as long as he can. Is that the reason? So far as the question of where a firm makes an application for a grant to Foras Tionscal is concerned and fails for one reason or another to get the grant, perhaps because there is no competitive disadvantage by going west or maybe for other reasons associated with the unsoundness of the whole enterprise, Deputy Lemass thinks they should get the grant provided for in that Bill.

Only if it is turned down and there is no competitive disadvantage.

So far as the second matter is concerned they will have to run the gauntlet and if we are to do anything there may be some case for examining the question. I think it should be done through the Undeveloped Areas Act. If it was felt that there was not a competitive disadvantage to the firm by operating in an undeveloped area the application would be rejected. In that event there may be a case for saying: "We will give you the benefit of the Acts which will apply elsewhere," and I would undertake to have that matter examined in connection with the Industrial Grants Bill.

As Deputy Lemass knows only too well, the undeveloped areas is really an arbitrarily defined area, a line of demarcation drawn for administrative reasons more than anything else. A number of areas on the eastern side of that line are in fact just as badly off——

Certainly.

——as places on the other side.

They can be brought in.

They can be brought in and I have undertaken to bring a number in. If they go east they can get an industrial grant. So far as the competitive disadvantage is concerned, if the firm does not get a grant within the undeveloped areas because of the competitive disadvantage, the firm can move over the border, if it wishes, and go outside the undeveloped areas where economic conditions are quite indistinguishable from conditions in the undeveloped areas. Therefore, while a firm might, on competitive disadvantage, not get a grant from An Foras Tionscal for operation in the undeveloped areas, all it has to do is to move across this virtually indefinable line from the economic point of view, camp outside the undeveloped areas where conditions are exactly the same as they are in the undeveloped areas; and in that case they qualify for entitlement to the two-thirds grant provided under this Bill.

Does the Minister understand what he is saying—that they can qualify for the grant by getting out of an undeveloped area?

There is no point in carrying on a manipulation of words to that extreme. I am saying that anyone who does not want to go into the undeveloped areas can, if he satisfies the provisions prescribed in this Bill— which are more onerous than the conditions prescribed in the Undeveloped Areas Act——

That is so; they are more onerous.

——can start outside the undeveloped areas, and no one can prevent him; but if he wants to get the higher grant—eligibility for 100 per cent. cost of a factory building, half the cost of machinery, a grant for the training of workers—he will move into the area under the Undeveloped Areas Act.

The Minister is an adept at changing his step.

Is the Deputy objecting to factories in Dublin?

Let Deputy Lemass read it and he will see I am not changing from what I said before. There are obvious advantages. There are some good, large-sized towns in the undeveloped areas. There are substantial hinterlands around those towns from which a substantial labour force can be drawn and it is an intelligent and adaptable labour force. The undeveloped areas will continue to give these attractions, while the financial attractions of the Undeveloped Areas Act will remain; and, in my view, they are substantially better than those which will be provided under this Bill. There are places which deserve consideration outside the undeveloped areas. It is the money of everyone in the country which is to be utilised for helping the undeveloped areas; is it too much to expect that other areas, in the east, in the Midlands, in the south and in the north-west, should not be denied assistance——

——in a matter of industrial development?

Who said that?

No one suggested that.

I do not believe that is a fair way to treat them. This Bill preserves all that the undeveloped areas had up to now. There will be no change in that regard.

The Minister will give the facilities to Dublin?

The Deputy should not always talk through his hat. He should take time off sometimes. So far as the other areas are concerned, this Bill will give them, for the first time, some financial assistance in promoting industries in those places which at present are bereft of all industries, and which have defied 34 years of native Government in the matter of having an industry established in those places.

On the point raised by Deputy Lemass, I will undertake to look into it sympathetically on the amendment of the Undeveloped Areas Act.

On a point of clarification, may I ask the Minister now, if an industry is proposed to him outside the demarcation line of the Undeveloped Areas Act, and if it would be a marked advantage to get by Order an extension of the Undeveloped Areas Act to apply to that industry, would he be prepared to consider that aspect, rather than act under this new Bill—if what I have said would help the industry better? Would the Minister apply both considerations to his examination of the problem? I am asking this because I can see this point arising by reason of the fact that it has arisen already and that representations were made to the present Minister and to his predecessor regarding some of these areas, to extend by regulation the provisions of the Undeveloped Areas Act. If the proposition comes up now under this question of foreign industry, would the Minister be prepared to consider both aspects of the matter when he is dealing with the problem?

How far does the Deputy propose extending it?

As far as Kinsale.

Did we not accept the case made by the Minister as regards these areas to which he has referred as being bereft of industries? It is because we were aware of their existence that provision was made in the Undeveloped Areas Act to bring them in. Far from begrudging those areas the meagre help which is provided for them in this Bill, we were prepared to see them getting the bigger help which is provided under the Undeveloped Areas Act. We think that areas such as he has mentioned, like West Cavan, are entitled to the benefits of the Undeveloped Areas Act. Why will the Minister not give those benefits to them?

No application has been made for that; and my predecessor refused to write it into the Bill. What is the use of being hypocritical over it?

Does the Minister not know they can be roped in under the Undeveloped Areas Act by Order?

If the need arises, that will be considered.

Question put and agreed to.
Money Resolution reported and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn