Might I point out at this stage that the Government spokesman will be called upon to conclude at 4.30 p.m.?
Adjournment Debate—Economic Position (Resumed).
May I just intervene to protest that since this Adjournment debate started, the Chair has seen fit to call members from the Opposition and Government sides and that an Independent Deputy has offered himself on each occasion, and, though whatever this Independent Deputy would have to say would carry little weight anyway, surely he has the same rights as other Deputies to express the views of the people whom he represents?
The Chair has called members from both sides. Members of Parties must be called first before Independents.
There were six members of the political Parties——
The Deputy was not here to rise on several occasions.
The Deputy has been here since 10.30 a.m. with only half an hour break.
And very few others.
Would Deputy McQuillan allow Deputy O'Malley to speak?
I think that if Deputy McQuillan or any other Deputy is anxious to make his presence felt in this House the time will not be too short when the most expressive method will be the Division Lobby.
We have to have our say.
I agree with that. The last speaker on the Government side of the House was Deputy MacBride and it is about time that Deputy MacBride's tactics and those of the remnants of the Clann na Poblachta Party were finally exposed in this House. We see letters almost nightly in the Dublin evening papers, under noms-de-plume, which are obviously inspired by the Clann na Poblachta supporters. Deputy MacBride at least has seen the writing on the wall. Last Saturday a meeting took place—and let him deny this if he likes—of the Clann na Poblachta National Executive. At that meeting, Deputy MacBride gave a dissertation on the present economic crisis and the difficulties facing the Government and on what he as leader of the Clann na Poblachta Party suggested and how the Government treated his suggestions. There were a few members, I am glad to say, of the Clann na Poblachta Party who were a bit tired of Deputy MacBride's tactics and a vote was taken. The vote was that the three members of the Party would withdraw from the Government before April. Deputy MacBride pleaded with the members of the National Executive to be allowed to stay on and support the Government until April. I think the voting was 38 to 2. He chose to-day to come in and criticise Deputy MacEntee and members of the Fianna Fáil Party for speeches which they had made and general Fianna Fáil policy and I am simply taking this opportunity of exposing the hypocrisy of Deputy MacBride and his two companions.
I am glad of the opportunity of saying some words here. I had hoped to get in on the housing debate and deal particularly with the problems which exist in Limerick. Every Deputy could talk about the housing difficulties of his own locality, but the information I will give the house in the few short minutes at my disposal will stagger the members of the House. The housing position, as set out by the City Manager and not by me, is incredible at the present time. In a reply to a question in this House, the Minister for Social Welfare showed that there are now over 800 men unemployed in Limerick City more than there were this time last year, not taking into a consideration those who have emigrated. Things are critical in Limerick and the highest incidence of unemployment is in the building trade.
The Minister for Finance chooses to say that the whole financial crisis in the country at the present time is attributable to circumstances outside the control of the Government. I am now going to expose something which the Government is directly in control of. Through the neglect and apathy of the Minister for Local Government, the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach and the Government generally, this unemployment position in Limerick has been caused. I believe the position is the worst in the country, comparatively speaking.
We have one housing scheme in Limerick which is worth £75,000 for which we have applied to the Minister for Local Government for a loan. We have another housing scheme of £330,000. We also have schemes of site development and applications for further housing. The application for the loan of £75,000 has been with the Minister for Local Government for many a long day. I think it could be said it is with him since shortly after he came into this House. The Minister for Local Government has actually come to Limerick and opened a scheme and made a very nice speech congratulating all parties concerned, and what did we get? We did not get a light. But what does the Minister for Finance say? On November 2nd when the heat was being applied and when questions were being put down here weekly, the Department of Local Government recommended that the Commissioners of Public Works should pay this loan. The houses are built and occupied and we have not received one shilling.
There is another scheme in Limerick which is known as the Garryowen scheme, costing £330,000. In the case of this scheme, £140,000 has already been spent and we have to pay the contractors every month. We did not get a light for that scheme either, but on November 2nd also the Minister for Local Government recommended that the Commissioners of Public Works should pay the grant allocated.
The position in regard to housing in Limerick is most serious. We have reached the limit as regards our overdraft accommodation with the bank and in that connection I should like to refer to a statement made on 29th November, 1956, by the Minister for Finance in reply to a question by me in this House.
I asked the Minister for Finance if he would state in relation to the Limerick Corporation what proposals for loans from the Local Loans Fund were at present before him, the present position in each case, and when payment would be made. In reply, the Minister for Finance said that proposals in relation to Limerick Corporation for loans from the Local Loans Fund amounting to £410,200——
Surely this is a travesty of a general economic question?
I agree it is a travesty of the whole general economic policy of the Government and this travesty in Limerick is but a typical example of it.
I thought the Deputy would not have even enough intelligence to appreciate it.
I suppose the Minister would have enough intelligence to grant the loans to the Limerick Corporation which he admitted on 29th November are due to us. As I was saying before I was interrupted by the Minister, his reply to my question was as follows:
"Proposals in relation to Limerick Corporation for loans from the Local Loans Fund amounting to £410,200 under the Housing of the Working Classes Act and £26,500 under the Sanitary Services Acts are at present before me and are being examined departmentally."
And now let the House hear what follows:—
"Pending the completion of this examination, I cannot say to what extent these proposals will be accepted."
The Minister says he cannot say to what extent the proposals will be accepted in respect of houses completed, occupied and the builders paid by the Limerick Corporation by overdraft, the interest on which is being subsidised by the ratepayers of Limerick City. It is about time the Minister for Finance copped himself on and told the people of this country a bit of truth. The Minister further stated in his reply:—
"The Deputy will appreciate that detailed scrutiny of proposals involving such substantial outlay from the Local Loans Fund is essential in the public interest."
Later on, in reply to a Supplementary Question, the Minister said that only last month or this month these matters were put before him, which was an admission by the Minister for Finance that his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, had fallen down completely on the job. It is scandalous to say that there is a sum of £410,000 owed to the Limerick Corporation and that the housing of the working classes is held up. We cannot embark upon any future schemes. We have got to the highest peak of the amount we can draw from our treasurers, the Munster and Leinster Bank, and we are in the position that we do not know what the future holds.
The position in regard to the housing of the working classes is bad enough, but what is the position in regard to private building and housing under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts? I can tell the Minister straight off. On 11th June, 1956, a mortgage was signed by Limerick Corporation and the Commissioners for Public Works for £100,000 which sum in the main covered people who had erected houses, had houses which were substantially erected or who had entered into arrangements with contractors. Since 11th June, 1956, all the Limerick Corporation has drawn is £40,000 and we cannot, despite deputations and pleadings by the City Manager, myself, Deputy Carew and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, get the £60,000, out of the Minister for Finance and even if he gives us the £60,000, we are in the position that private building in Limerick at the present time is stopped because the total commitments at the present time in Limerick are £98,260. If we get the £60,000 in addition to the £40,000 we have got already, it will leave us with only a couple of thousand pounds.
Private building has stopped in Limerick and housing of the working classes has been held up. The Minister for Finance will not tell us when we can get the money or how we can get it. There are very many members of the present Government who criticised Deputy Smith and the Fianna Fáil Party, when the rate of interest rose before, for not giving consideration to people who had entered into commitments under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts or make some concession to them with regard to the rate of interest.
What is the present position with regard to the rate of interest? It is that all future issues from the Local Loans Fund are lent at 5¾ per cent. Even though the Minister for Local Government in his Housing (Amendment) Act, 1956, gave the local authority the power of lending that money at any rate they wished—1 per cent. if you like—nevertheless, no member of a local authority asked the ratepayers to subsidise private housing or housing under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts by lending the money at a lesser rate than that at which they can borrow it. People have entered into commitments in Limerick and have built houses and instead of 5¼ per cent. the City Manager is trying to charge those people 6¼ per cent., the 5¾ per cent. which the Minister for Finance intimates was the borrowing rate at which they would get the money and the ½ per cent. extra for administrative costs.
I could talk all day on this question and expose the whole position in regard to housing, but I want to give my colleague, Deputy Flanagan, who has some important points to make, an opportunity of presenting them.
Deputy Flanagan will have three minutes.
I am glad to have even three minutes to be able to say something. I do not intend to deal with the general economic situation, but I do wish to say a few things in regard to the position obtaining in the part of the country which I represent. It is a part of the country which is dying, where the old customs and traditions are falling into disuse, where the social fabric is disintegrated and where migration to supplement part time production at home has been supplanted by whole time emigration with no home production at all. The effect of the policy of this Government on the area I represent has been far worse than on the tillage areas of the country and it has been conceded that the congested areas have a proportionate higher productivity. The mainstay of our economy, eggs, poultry, pigs and bacon has been destroyed by the present Administration. At the present time, our capacity to produce and our capacity thereby to be an asset to the country has been ruined by this Government. Let any Minister in this Government who talks about sabotage come to the West of Ireland and he will see nothing there but empty houses to-day. The songs that used to be sung in these homes are no longer sung because the people are not there to sing them.
If the Government are satisfied about the present position, as their smug appearance to-day would suggest, they should have no qualms about going to the country; but they are not and they will get their answer if they come to the West of Ireland from the people they have sabotaged. This very day the Government have passed an Industrial Grants Bill which is designed still further to stab those people in the back and is also designed to get us away from the policy of decentralising industry in this country. I hope that the day will come soon when we will be able to get back to the policy enunciated by Deputy Lemass in introducing the Undeveloped Areas Bill when he said that his Government would go even further in order to give a chance to the people in the West to get back on their feet.
People have spoken here on our having too many social welfare benefits. That may be so, but social benefits are not what the people in the West of Ireland want. They want work and a chance to contribute to the nation and make a living for themselves. Social benefits are only substitutes and we are fed up with substitutes in the West of Ireland now.
The Government spokesman is entitled to be called now.
We in the West of Ireland, a dying people, are prepared to make sacrifices, but we want to know for what purpose we should make them. One thing we know is that the present Government has no purpose whatsoever, nothing to guide them, that they are going no place and going there fast. We will make the sacrifices and we will produce and live and revive our customs in the West of Ireland, if given a chance by a Government which knows what it is doing, where it is going and why it is there.
A very constructive suggestion.
Debate adjourned.