I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Committee on Finance. - Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1957—Second Stage.
The purposes of this Bill are, firstly, to provide for the continuance of powers in relation to certain miscellaneous social welfare schemes which were conferred on local authorities by three Emergency Powers Orders made under the Supplies and Services Acts, which are due to expire on the 31st December next, and secondly, to remove doubts which have arisen in the interpretation of the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts, 1914 to 1930.
The social welfare schemes concerned are the cooked meals scheme, the cheap fuel scheme and the public assistance footwear scheme. In relation to the cooked meals scheme I should explain that, to meet the possibility of the dislocation of essential services, the Government decided in 1941 to invest county borough corporations with power to establish emergency food centres either directly or in association or by arrangement with any other person or body. The Emergency Powers (No. 109) Order, 1941, was made accordingly. The Order has been used in Dublin and Limerick as the authority for payments by the corporations concerned to voluntary bodies to assist them in providing meals for poor persons. There is no cost to the Exchequer, the subsidies being borne entirely by the local authorities, but the Minister's sanction is necessary to the operation of any scheme. It is proposed to continue the powers contained in the Emergency Powers Order substantially unchanged and Section 2 of the Bill provides accordingly.
Turning now to Section 4 of the Bill. The cheap fuel scheme was introduced as an emergency measure in 1942, when fuel was scarce, to ensure that fuel would be available at a low price to poor people in areas then classified as non-turf areas. The service is operated in 16 cities and towns mainly on the eastern seaboard. A modified service is operated in Limerick City. During the winter months—November to March inclusive —one cwt. of fuel (turf or timber) is provided each week for households in the following categories:—
(a) home assistance recipients free of charge, the cost being met by the public assistance authority,
(b) persons in receipt of old age, blind and widows' and orphans' pensions, who pay 6d. per cwt.,
(c) unemployment, assistance recipients with dependents, who pay 1/- per cwt.,
(d) persons with low weekly incomes, outside the above categories, who pay 2/- per cwt.
The net cost of the fuel supplied is recouped from the Social Assistance Vote, No. 62, to local authorities operating approved schemes. The amount voted for the current year is £161,750 and there will be no increase in this amount as a result of the proposed legislation.
Certain of the powers given to local authorities in Emergency Powers (No. 108) Order, 1941, and (No. 310) Order, 1944, are necessary for the operation of this service. The No. 108 Order empowers county councils and urban authorities to acquire, fell, transport, use, sell and dispose of timber. Article 18 of the No. 310 Order empowers them to purchase, sell or dispose of turf. It is proposed to continue these powers for urban authorities as provided in Section 4 of the Bill.
The public assistance footwear scheme is operated by public assistance authorities under the Public Assistance (Footwear Regulations) Order, 1944, made under the Public Assistance Act, 1939. The scheme, which was initiated in 1944, was designed to ensure that a proportion of the leather then available would be utilised for footwear for children up to the age of 16 years, whose parents or guardians were in receipt of home assistance, or were deemed by the public assistance authorities to be unable to provide footwear for their children. Home assistance recipients receive the footwear free of charge, and other recipients pay a contribution, fixed by the public assistance authority, according to their means.
The annual sum voted for the scheme under the Social Assistance Vote is £37,500. Within this limit half the net cost of expenditure on footwear is recouped to public assistance authorities, No extra cost is involved in the proposed provision.
The Emergency Powers (No. 351) Order, 1945, provides safeguards relating to inspection, sale, purchase and use of the special footwear manufactured for the scheme and also for penalties for abuse. In practice, it has not been found necessary for many years to utilise any of these powers, other than that of inspection which has, in general, prevented abuse of the scheme. It is considered necessary, therefore, to continue only the powers of inspection by inspectors appointed by the Minister and by the public assistance authorities and the associated penalty for obstruction and these are provided for in Section 5 of the Bill.
Reverting now to Section 3 of the Bill as regards the school meals scheme, operated by urban authorities under the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts, 1914 to 1930. Certain doubts have arisen in connection with the administration of the schemes following the consideration of questions raised by the Committee of Public Accounts in relation to the Appropriation Accounts for the years 1951-52, 1952-53 and 1953-54. In general, the Act is designed to provide for the supply of school meals on a contributory or repayment basis but provision is made for remitting part or all of the cost where the parents are unable to pay and for supplying meals free of charge to children who are unable, by reason of lack of food, to benefit from the education provided for them.
Since the inception of the service as far back as 1914, the schemes have been operated mainly on the free-of-charge basis, the cost of the food being met out of the rates in the first instance.
One half the cost of the food supplied in the meals is recouped from the Exchequer to the local authorities. The amount provided in the Social Assistance Vote for the current year is £77,500. There will be no increase in this amount as a result of the proposed amendment.
The view has always been held that local authorities were entitled, to operate non-contributory schemes only if they so desire despite the provisions relating to contributory schemes. I have been advised however, that this interpretation of the Acts is not free from doubt. I have also been advised that the only cost which under Section 3 of the 1914 Act may be met out of the rates is the cost of food and that the cost of preparing a meal, over and above the cost of the provision of the food, cannot legally be met out of the rates. In fact, of course, the preparation of food — the cutting and buttering of bread, the slicing of meat and preparing cocoa or stew — is essential to the provision of the meal and the cost involved is inseparable from the cost of the meal and has to be met.
Section 3 of the Bill proposes to set this matter right by amending the Education (Provision of Meals) Acts, 1914 to 1930, so as to place beyond doubt the right of local authorities to continue to operate non-contributory school meal schemes under Section 3 of the Act of 1914 and to defray the cost of preparing the meals.
The purpose of this Bill is quite clear. As the Parliamentary Secretary said, it is a Bill to assist the administration of the scheme and to clear doubts which have arisen. I think it meets those requirements. Accordingly, we have no objection to the Bill and trust that its intentions will be achieved. As the Parliamentary Secretary stated, there is always difficulty in relation to the preparation and operation of meals in various places. I do not know how the Parliamentary Secretary can say that there will be no additional charges. The chances are that there will. It ought to make for the more extensive use of meals.
We are all very glad that the Parliamentary Secretary brought in this Bill to clear up any doubts that may have existed. The fuel scheme is in operation only from November to March, and I thought, when the Parliamentary Secretary was bringing in a Bill such as this, he would have made the fuel scheme apply all the year round. Old age pensioners. especially those living on their own, find it very difficult at any time of the year to provide themselves with fuel out of the miserably small pensions they have. This is especially the case, as I have said, when they are living on their own. I think the least the Government should have done was to ensure that the free fuel scheme would have applied the whole year round.
With regard to providing meals in the county boroughs, the Parliamentary Secretary might have gone further and allowed public authorities in other towns, where unemployment is so rife and where people are not able to get a meal, to provide free meals. He should have brought in a section to enable this to be done by the other local authorities.
I have received complaints now and again that the footwear provided under the footwear scheme is of very poor quality. People who have to contribute quite a share towards the cost were very aggrieved when they found the quality of the footwear supplied was so poor. I know there are inspections, but these inspections are concerned more with ensuring that the right people get the vouchers and do not hand over their vouchers to others. I think there should be more inspections to ensure that the quality of the footwear supplied is better than it has been. I am glad to learn that matters in regard to the charges for and preparation of school meals have been cleared up.
On the point made by Deputy MacEoin, we have found that there was abuse of the free meal scheme, particularly in the City of Dublin. Bread and food were pegged about and the Minister's predecessor in office investigated this and tightened up the whole scheme. There was a considerable saving as a result of that investigation and there will be a considerable saving in the present year. The last Deputy who spoke referred to the free fuel scheme operating the whole year round. The experience in the Department was that practically no one availed of a summer fuel scheme which was in operation in the years after the last war. On that account, it was scrapped.
I do not agree with the suggestion of extending the free meal scheme all over the country. I do not subscribe to the welfare state at all and the more we can avoid it, the better. People stand on their own feet in this country. They supply their children with meals and take pride in supplying them with substantial meals. I would hate to see the day when we would do away with that system. In cities like Dublin and Cork, there may be a case for it; but, subject to the approval of the Minister, while I am in this position, there will not be any extension of the scheme to other parts of Ireland.
Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 6th November.