Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Oct 1957

Vol. 164 No. 2

An Bille um Thionscail na Gaeltachta, 1957—An Dara Céim.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Micheál Ó Moráin)

Táirgím go léifí an Bille seo don dara uair.

Ceapaim nach miste ar dtúis cúntas gairid a thabhairt ar stair na dtionscal tuatha atá á reachtáil ag mo Roinn-se, chun cabhrú le Teachtaí cuspóirí an Bhille seo a thuiscint. Síad na tionscail tuaithe atá, i gceist ná tionscal an bhréidin, an tionscal cniotála agus bróidnéireachta agus tionscal na mbréagáin. Bé Bórd na gCeantar gCúng a bhunaigh na tionscail seo, ach amháin tionscal na mBréagán don chéad uair mar cuid de na hiarrachtaí a bhí á dhéanamh aca chun saol geilleagrach na gceantar gcúng a fheabhsú. Chuir an Bórd rompa tionscail bhaile nó tionscail teaghlaigh a chur chun chinn tré deontais agus iasachtaí a thabhairt agus teagascóirí a chur ar fáil.

D'éirigh go réasúnta maith leis na tionscail seo, go h-áirithe i rith an chéad chogaidh mhóir i gcás an bhréidín. De dheasca na ndeacrachtaí a tháinig ann tar éis na bacanna agus na coscanna a bhí i bhfeidhm ar an tionscal thall i Sasana i rith an chogaidh a bheith scaoilte tháinig meath orra timpeall na bliana 1920. Cuireadh deireadh le Bórd na gCeantar gCúng sa bhliain 1923, agus socraíodh go roinnfí na dualgais a bhí á gcoimhlíonadh aca ar Rannaí éagsúla. Faoí Ordú a rinne an Rialtas i mí Deireadh Fómhair, 1956, do haistríodh na tionscail tuatha go léir ón Roinn Tailte go dtí Roinn na Gaeltachta.

Rinne Coimisiútn na Gaeltachta staid na dtionscal tuatha a scrúdú agus mhol siad go mba, chóir Lár Ionad Margaíochta a chur ar bun chun cúraí díolacháin d'fheabhsú. Mholadar freisin go mba chóir tabhairt faoi athbheochaint tionscail an bhréidín. Ag éirigh as na moltaí sin do cuireadh Lár Ionad Margaíochta ar bun i mBaile Átha, Cliath agus tugadh an t-ainm "Gaeltarra Éireann" air. Níl ins an ainm sin, ár ndóigh, ach ainm trádála agus is faoin ainm sin a díoltar anois na hearraí uilig atá dhá ndéanamh ins na tionscail tuatha.

Tá borradh mór taréis teacht ar na tionscail tuatha ón uair a chéad bunaíodh iad. Do cuireadh tionscail nua ar fad — tionscal na mbréagán — ar bun sa bhliain 1938 agus rinneadh forbairt mhór ar na tionscail eile, go háirithe tionscal an bhréidín. Tugaim anseo cuntas gairid ar gach tionscal ar leith ón uair a cuireadh an Lár Ionad Margaíochta ar bun.

Sa bhliain 1929, bhí an tionscal seo i riocht chomh holc sin go raibh líon na bhfíodóirí ag dul i laigheadh go tapaidh ó bhliain go bliain. Ní raibh eagraíocht ar bith ann chun bunábhar nó cumraí a chur ar fáil nó chun an bhréidín a dhíol. Shocruigh Seirbhísí na Gaeltachta ar mhuileann sníomhacháin a bhunú i gCill Chtártha agus eagraíocht margaíochta a chur ar bun. Cuireadh ranganna ar bun chun tuilleadh fíodóirí d'oiliúint agus cuireadh cumraí nua ar fáil. Mar thoradh ar obair na mblianta ó shoin i leith tá monarchan curtha ar fáil anois i gCill Chártha inar féidir gach gné den obair a dhéanamh idir sciúráil, meascadh, cárdáil, sníomhacháin, físiú, agus críochnú, agus ina mbíonn breis agus céad oibritheóirí fostaithe ó cheann ceann na bliana.

Chomh maith leis na h-oibritheóirí seo bíonn timpeall céad go leith fíodóirí —agus an chuid is mó díobh ag obair ina dtithe féin — ag obair go rialta chun freastail ar ordaithe. Tá díolacháin bréidín méadaithe ó £18,075 sa bhliain 1935-36 go dtí £276,810 sa bhliain 1956-57. Díoltar 50 per cent. den bhréidín seo thar lear.

Tá 26 ionad cniotála agus dhá ionad bróidnéireachta faoí chúram Ghaeltarra Éireann faoí láthair agus cuirtear obair ar fáil do 300 oibrithe lán aimsireach agus 700 oibrithe páirt aimsireach a oibríonn in a dtithe féin. Cé nach ndeacha an tionscal maisín cniotála— munab ionann is an tionscal láimhchniotál — ar aghaidh chomh tréan le tionscal an bhréidín tá earraí maisínchniotála de luach timpeall £100,000 a ndíol go rialta le roinnt blianta anuas. Maidir leis na tionscail lámh-chniotála agus bróidnéireacht bhí díolacháin de luach £46,500 ann sa bhliain airgeadais 1956-57.

Cuireadh an tionscal seo ar bun ag Cuan Éilí Co. Mhuigheó sa bhliain 1938. Osclaíodh monarchan eile ag Croilí sa bhliain 1940 agus sa bhliain 1949 osclaíodh monarchan eile ag an Spidéal chun páirteanna bábóg a dhéanamh. Chomh maith le bréagáin, déantar málaí siopadóireachta ins an tionscal seo. Sé luach na n-earraí a díoltar sa bhliain ná timpeall £70,000. Tá tuairim is 130 oibrithe fostaithe sa tionscal seo.

Is léir mar sin go bhfuil athrú mór tagtha ar chúrsaí na dtionscal ón uair a chéad bunaíodh iad mar thionscail teaghlaigh ag Bórd na gCeantar gCung. Chomh maith leis an obair sa mbaile tá obair ar siúl i monarcain agus ionaid scaipithe ar fuaid na Gaeltachta. Tá an cur-amach méadaithe go maith agus tá na tionscail anois ag braith cuid mhaith ar margaidh thar lear chun obair a choinneál leis na hoibritheóirí go mór-mhór i dtionscal an bhréidín.

Ag féachaint don bhfás mór atá taréis teacht ar na tionscail le roinnt blian anuas agus don bhfíor go gcaithfí bheith in ann seasamh i gcoinne coimhlint, go mór-mhór ins na tíortha thar lear, socraíodh go mba chóir a mheas ar cheart eagraíocht tráchtála a chur ar bun chun na tionscail a stiúriú agus gan iad a fhágáil ag obair go díreach faoi Roinn Stáit. Taréis dul isteach san scéal go mion is go cúramach táim sásta nach bhfuil módh oibre na StátSheirbhíse oiriúnach chun gnó tionsclaíochta den tsaghas seo d'oibriú go héifeachtúil.

Ní chuig obair den tsaghas seo a ceapadh módh oibre agus rialacha na Stát-Sheirbhíse. I dtreo is go mbfhéidir na tionscail a fhorbairt níos fearr fós tá sé fíor riachtanach im thuairim eagraíocht tráchtála i bhfoirm Boird mar a léirítear sa Bhille, a chur ar bun agus na tionscail a chur faoin a chúram.

Ní dóigh liom gur gá dom dul isteach ró mhion i bhforálacha an Bhille féin mar is dóigh liom go bhfuil siad iontuigthe ionnta féin. Tá an soláthar ins an mBille seo ar aon dul go ginearálta leis an soláthar a rinneadh i mBillí a ritheadh cheana féin i leith Boird Reachtúla. Go hathcomair tá beartaithe Bord ar a dtabharfaí Gaeltarra Éireann a chur ar bun agus na tionscail tuatha a chur faoí'n a gcúram. Tá sainmhíniú tugtha sa Bhille ar chomhachtaí agus dualgaisí an Bhoird agus tá sé ráite ann cé'n chaoí a ceapfar baill an Bhoird agus cad iad na coinníollacha a bheas i bhfeidhm maidir leis na ceapacháin. Aistreófar socmhainní agus dliteanais na dtionscail tuaithe chuig an Bord nua. Cuirfear airgead ar fáil don Bhord faoí Alt 25 mar dheontas chun gná-chostais d'íoc agus faoi Alt 26 cuirfear airleacain inaisíoctha ar fáil le h-aghaidh caiteachas caipitil an Bhoird. Faoí mar is gnáthach, cuirfear mar dhualgas ar an mBórd cúntais a choinneál ar a n-ioncam agus ar a gcaiteachas, agus na cúntais a chur faoí bhráid an Aire.

Beidh ar an mBord, freisin, tuarascáil a thabhairt ar a gcuid imtheachtaí gach bliain. Tá soláthar san mBille —Altanna 31 agus 32—go bhfuighidh an Dáil cóipeanna de na cúntas agus de na tuarascála a chuirfidh an Bórd ar fáil agus coinneófar Teachtaí ar an eolas sa dóigh sin, ar conus mar atá obair an Bhoird ag dul ar aghaidh.

Is eol don Teach cé chomh deacair is atá sé cúrsaí geilleagrach na Gaeltachta fheabhsú. Is léir dúinn anois nach mbíonn aon fhonn ar tionscalóirí dul isteach in áiteacha iargúlta d'ainneoin na mbuntáistí atá curtha ar fáil chun pé ceataí a ghabhann le tionsclaíocht sa chuid is fuide siar den tír a mhaolú. Is mór is fiú dúinn mar sin, aon tionscal atá againn cheana sa Ghaeltacht a chaomhnú agus a fhorbairt oiread agus is féidir. Chomh maith leis sin beidh sé de dhualgas ar an mBord nua tionscal oiriúnach ar bith a chur ar bun sa Ghaeltacht. Sé an cuspóir atá ann: go gcuirfear obair Ghaeltarra Éireann idir lámha i slí gnótha, agus go mbeidh an Bord i ndon na tionscail tuaithe a leathnú agus tionscail nua a bhunú chomh luath agus is féidir. Ins na cúrsaí uilig, níl aon amhras orm ach gur ionmholta go maith an togra san mBille seo, ar an ábhar go dtiubharfaidh sé seans ceart do na tionscail seo dulchun-chinn níos fearr fós a dhéanamh.

Molaim an Bille dá réir don Teach.

Mr. Lindsay

Somebody said in the course of previous debates here that the speaker whose speech he was then criticising had succeeded in making a molehill out of a mountain. The speech which the House has just heard delivered by the Minister for the Gaeltacht is an attempt at making a molehill out of a mountain——

Mr. Doherty

How does the Deputy know?

Mr. Lindsay

It is not my fault if Deputy Doherty insists on giving a display of his lack of knowledge of manners and the other things incidental to it——

Mr. Doherty

Níl aon Gaeilge agat.

Mr. Lindsay

Tá níos mó Gaeilge agam ná mar atá agat. If Deputy Doherty persists with his display of lack of knowledge of Irish, English and manners, it is not my fault. He might discover that parliamentary representation can never be reduced to that kind of conduct. This speech is demonstrative of the molehill of success side by side with the mountain of failure. We welcome this Bill, in principle, on this side of the House. We welcome it in principle because its presentation to the House is the result of a decision of the previous Government, as enunciated by the then Taoiseach, Deputy J.A. Costello, in October, 1956. However, while we may welcome the Bill in principle, in the light of all that has happened in relation to Gaeltarra Éireann since October, 1956, up to the present day, we hold ourselves free to criticise it by way of timing, by way of the ultimate date for its operation and in detail in relation to the administrative contemplation contained in its various provisions.

The Minister's speech gives certain details. It sets out how many are employed in this branch or that branch of a particular industry. It resembles very much the description given in an editorial of a national newspaper to a certain report issued by another public body a short time ago where it was described as "an unrevealing document." The Minister's speech is of very little value to the House and to the people of the country who will have to give reasonable thought to the prospect of investing State moneys in an industry such as this, particularly when the speech is, as I say, an unrevealing document in so far as it fails to give any comparative knowledge, namely, the number of people employed in each industry last year, the year before, and so on, instead of leaving it at the bald figures obtaining at the present time.

The Minister knows perfectly well that there has been a serious fallingoff in production in most aspects of the trade conducted by Gaeltarra Eireann and, up to recently, that was true of all, with the exception of tweed. The Minister implies that the main reason for bringing this Bill before the House at this stage is to foster and promote that further development of tweed which has been so apparent in the years gone by. That speech, delivered in this House this evening, contrasts — I might say conflicts — in an extraordinary way with the speech delivered by the general manager of Coras Tráchtála, Mr. Walsh, in an address to the Dublin Chamber of Commerce, as reported in to-day's issue of the Irish Independent.

The Minister for the Gaeltacht says, in effect: "We are ‘up-and-coming' and, accordingly, we want this Bill to establish a board on a business basis that will make that ‘up-and-coming' more accentuated and will give rise to further promotion of the trades relevant to Gaeltarra Eireann." Listen to the report of Mr. Walsh's speech at the Dublin Chamber of Commerce yesterday, as reported in to-day's issue of the Irish Independent:—

"Restrictions on the importation of woollen and worsted cloths imposed by the U.S. Government were described by Mr. W.H. Walsh, General Manager, Coras Tráchtála Teoranta, in an address to Dublin Chamber of Commerce, as a serious blow not only to Irish weavers and mills but also to the efforts of all concerned with the encouragement of Irish-American trade.'

Mr. Walsh said that the quota on woollen cloths imposed by the U.S. Government early this year had the effect of increasing the duty from 25 per cent. to 45 per cent. after a quota figure of 14,000,000 lbs. weight from all countries had been reached. By July all the quota was filled, and U.S. importers were not willing to pay the extra duty as it priced the Irish cloth out of the market.

‘Our handweavers and mills are, therefore, getting no repeat orders and the immediate prospect is partial elimination from the market—perhaps total elimination for buyers and makers-up are disinclined to do business in cloth that is on and off the shelves in jack-in-the-box fashion,' he said."

How these two statements can be reconciled, I do not know. How the Minister, at this stage — having regard to the peculiar position obtaining, particularly with regard to our American trade — can ask the House to set up a board to which moneys will be advanced from the Oireachtas is to me somewhat inconceivable. That is but one of the details of timing with which I quarrel.

Everybody in this House and most people in the country are conversant with the situation as it obtained in Gaeltarra Eireann — the situation as I found it in October of last year. It would be an excellent thing if the Minister would direct his mind towards the clearing-up of all the doubts and suspicions that were in the minds of most people before asking any body of men in this country who, presumably, will be decent business men, to take over a concern which, not alone in my opinion but in the opinion of many other people, merits the closest scrutiny and inquiry.

The accounts of Gaeltarra Éireann for the years 1955-56 and 1956-57 have not yet, I think, reached the Public Accounts Committee and before any body of men are asked to give their time and energies and the benefits of their experience and knowledge to the running, on a business basis, of this board, the Minister, I strongly urge, would be well advised to await the findings of the Public Accounts Committee on the transactions and dealings, internally and externally, of Gaeltarra Éireann.

I am not going to weary the House or the country by repeating verbatim all and every one of the allegations which I made here last June but, with all deference and respect to the reply given by the then acting-Minister for the Gaeltacht, I now repeat each and every one of these allegations for the benefit of the House and the country. If I so wished, I could give information this evening upon which all the publicity of Dáil and newspaper reports could be turned regarding the affairs of Gaeltarra Éireann since last June. I shall refrain from doing so with this suggestion to the Minister, that before he proceeds further he should make inquiries into and concerning inquisitions which are being conducted at the behest of outsiders and by officers of Gaeltarra Éireann within their own Department.

I shall give the Minister, expecting from him the same confidence as I now promise him, information which will warrant that inquiry by him. If he fails to take advantage of it, then it is for the House and the country to judge.

I should like to know in relation to Section 1 of the Bill why Arramara Teoranta is not being included. That brings me to Section 8 of the Bill. This Bill purports to ask the House for power to set up an independent board to conduct the affairs of Gaeltarra Éireann on businesslike lines and promote other industries in the Gaeltacht in addition to those already operated there. "Independent", would appear to be the key word in relation to this board but Section 8 says in one simple and sweeping sentence: "The Minister may at any time remove a member of the board from office"— no cause, no reason, no stated misbehaviour, no stated incapacity, no reason to be given to the House or to the Government.

I want to make it clear that I do not think the Minister for the Gaeltacht is in any way personally responsible for taking upon himself such large, sweeping and absolute power and I would commend to him — I shall certainly have something to say about it on the Committee Stage of this Bill —the terms, or a combination of the terms, of Section 5 of the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1927 and Section 10 of the Turf Development Act of 1946. The members of a board are there afforded the protection of being given a reason for their dismissal, and a dismissal, mark you, not by the Minister but by the Government, and I think it would be an advantage to the Minister to have taken off his shoulders the individual responsibility for such dismissals, however necessary, and make it the collective responsibility of the Government. In any event, in those two sections I have mentioned I think the Minister will find, to his advantage, a possible amendment of Section 8. I think it would probably be preferable, and very probably lacking in contention, if the Minister were to consider that and if he brought it in as an amendment himself rather than have it tabled from this side of the House.

With regard to Section 12, the Minister will understand me when I say that I recognise it as a standard provision in articles of association of companies and, indeed, it is a provision contained in many other Acts that have set up similar boards in this country. But I wonder is it workable? Admittedly, it is in other Acts. Section 12 reads:—

"A member of the board who has any interest in any company or concern with which the board proposes to make any contract or any interest in the contract shall disclose to the board the fact of the interest and the nature thereof, and he shall take no part in any deliberation or decision of the board relating to the contract, and the disclosure shall be recorded in the minutes of the board."

There are two aspects in relation to that section which I want to put before the House. One is that this creates a farcical situation bordering on corruption, and the other is that it is unworkable if the members of the board are men of substance and knowledge, experience and ability.

Take the latter case first. When this board is appointed by the Minister— the chairman, managing director and three other members — it is reasonable to assume that they will be men with a knowledge of business. By the way, it is also reasonable to assume that there will be a representative from the Department of Finance having regard to the fact that the moneys voted by this House will be advanced to this board.

Assume one of these men is a man with wide interests, not alone in one aspect of this business but in more than one and that there is a company in which he has an interest. Assume that the board proposes to make any contract or to have any interest in the contract with that company, is that man expected to give his assistance on this board and at the same time be denied the advantage of operating as a member of one or other of his own companies? That is arguing all the time that members of this board will be men of standing and integrity. I see no reason in the world for precluding a man of good business standing and integrity from the deliberation or decision of the board relating to a contract in which any of his business interests would be involved. That is the unworkable side of it as I see it.

On the other hand, take the farcical side. This board is about to do some business with a company of which one of the members is also a director. As such director of this board of Gaeltarra Éireann he is precluded from taking any part in the deliberations or the decision. Can anybody envisage anything funnier or less likely than that he would have a private word with his other directors, saying: "Well, boys, I cannot open my mouth either in the deliberations approaching the decision or in the decision itself, but I am sure, like old pals, you will look after me."

On those two bases I suggest to the Minister that Section 12 is unworkable, on the one hand, and farcical on the other, depending entirely in either case whether the members are going to be men of good business standing and integrity or whether they are not.

The figure which may be advanced to this board by the Oireachtas is £500,000. I refer again, on the question of Section 31 relating to accounts and audits, to the importance of the State being in a position to examine how that money was spent and generally allocated. It is true that in the two Acts I mentioned already, the Electricity Supply Act and the Turf Development Act, there are two different methods of audit. In the Electricity Supply Act there is a resemblance to this one. In fact, I think it is word for word as in Section 31, sub-sections (1) to (4). Sub-section (5) is, if it is to stand, a healthy addition, namely, "the Minister shall cause copies of the documents furnished to him under this section to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas." I would prefer — and it is something which the Minister might also consider —the wording of the particular section in the Turf Development Act in relation to accounts and audits where the Comptroller and Auditor-General is given access and power in relation to those audits.

In conclusion, I urge the Minister to take stock and not to rush or attempt to rush this Bill through the House. I do not know whether it is competent to discuss the personnel of the proposed board in relation to the constitution of the board in Section 5 but, apart from my suggestion that somebody from the Department of Finance should be there, with regret, I cannot recommend to him anybody else.

Mr. Blowick

I think this Bill is a step in the right direction. Of course, the Minister will say that I am clapping myself on the back when I say that because it was while I was Minister for Lands that I caused the Bill, now before the House, to be sent to the draftsman. It is something that is necessary and it will, I believe, have a beneficial effect on the whole working of what were formerly the Gaeltacht Services Division of the Department of Lands and recently the Department of the Gaeltacht, particularly in the matter of trading, employment and so on. It will give much needed freedom to the new board that will be set up under this new Bill which the officials of the Gaeltacht Services Division or the Minister for Lands and the Minister for the Gaeltacht never had.

Naturally enough, being under Government and under Finance control, there were certain rules which had to be observed and which oftentimes had a near disastrous effect on the working of certain sections of the Division. I am glad the Bill has come before the House. I think the Minister can be assured there will be no opposition to it and that any criticism made will be of its nature helpful. Seeing it is the first measure the Minister, in his capacity as Minister for the Gaeltacht, has brought before the House he will get every assistance as far as I am concerned and, indeed, as far as everybody is concerned. I cannot help recalling the first piece of legislation which I brought into the House. It did not get the speedy passage through the House that this Bill is getting.

I hope the new board when it is established will help to spread industries throughout the West of Ireland, in much the same way, and in conjunction with An Foras Tionscal, if such is possible. I believe it will be possible for the new board to do that. It is absolutely essential to do so if we are going to keep our dwindling population, particularly in the Gaeltacht and in the poorer areas outside the Gaeltacht, at home. If we are not going to lose more of our population it is absolutely necessary to establish new industries.

The point I am coming to, and it is just as well to put it bluntly once and for all, is that we are talking about keeping the Gaeltacht alive and about stopping emigration. There is only one way to stop emigration and that is to spend money in the form of employment in these areas. It is not for the good of their health that boys and girls are leaving the country. It is not because they want to see what foreign countries are like. It is because the particular area in which they live is not able to give them the livelihood they can earn elsewhere. That is putting it more bluntly than it was ever put in this House, but there is no use in dodging the issue. If we are earnest about keeping in this country the remnants of the people who are left in the rural and Gaeltacht areas, there is only one way of doing it and that is to spend money there. There is opposition to spending money in such areas but there is no other way of keeping them at home.

I do not know of anybody who would not have stayed at home for a lesser wage than he could get abroad, if it were possible to get work. That is my experience and I have talked with hundreds of them. None of them has gone just for the sake of travel or for the sake of amusing himself. Such people have gone to make a livelihood for themselves. I fully agree with their going as long as they cannot get a living at home. No boy or girl should waste their best years in searching for employment at home when it is not there. I would be the very last to ask them to stay under such circumstances. On the other side, we are sent here to represent those people and it is our duty to pour money into these areas. While it can be very easily held by some that such would be a waste of money, there is plenty of money being spent in other directions that could easily be diverted into these areas.

The reason I rose to speak was to impress on the Minister and the new board, whoever the members will be, the necessity to establish industries down the country. The Minister is the vehicle through which the board will get their money from Oireachtas Éireann and I am impressing upon him the need not to stint them for money. It was not stinted while I was Minister for Lands and while Deputy Lindsay was Minister for the Gaeltacht. If we are genuine about it, nice talk, flag-waving, beating drums and all the rest is not worth a button to the people down the country. The young people, if they get nothing will go; if they do get something they will stay at home.

Mr. Corish

This is being done for the sake of the Irish language, not for the people.

Mr. Blowick

If some people are doing it for the sake of the Irish language let them. I am speaking from the prosaic point of view of keeping our young men and women at home, whether they speak Irish or English.

With reference to Section 4 of the Bill I was very particular, when this Bill was first sent to the draftsman, that the powers given to the board under paragraph (c) of sub-section (3) of Section 4 should not be given. The Minister in sub-section (1) of Section 4 is giving power to the board to carry on, control and manage the present rural industries and to exercise the functions in relation thereto which were previously vested in the Minister.

Sub-section (2) states:—

"The board shall have all such powers as are necessary for the purposes specified in the foregoing sub-section."

Paragraph (c) of sub-section (3) states that the board shall have power

"to discontinue, either generally or in a particular place or district, the carrying on of any industry, being one of the rural industries, or any industry or productive scheme of employment provided by it under this section or any activity carried on by it in relation to or as part of the rural industries or any industry or productive scheme of employment so provided by it."

That is a paragraph I think is unwise. Possibly with the first board there may be no need for alarm, or with the second or third boards, but the day will come when it might be our bad luck to have a weak-kneed Minister in charge of the Gaeltacht who would give way to pressure by a Minister for Finance or by some other body, to effect savings.

We all know that none of the Gaeltacht industries can show a profit. They were never intended to do that. They were intended to give employment, to produce goods to be sold to the best advantage. I can easily see the day coming when a situation will arise when it will be pointed out to a Minister for the Gaeltacht that all these things are running at a loss and that they should be all centralised. I would ask the Minister to look over that section again, to hold some power in his hands and be in a position to put down his foot and say that such and such an industry will not be closed.

Perhaps in Section 8, to which Deputy Lindsay has referred, the Minister has retained enough power to cover such an eventuality. Under that section he can sack the whole board if they go against his wishes. I agree fully with Deputy Lindsay in that regard. It is an extraordinary section. The Minister is a legal man and I am not. I am sure he appreciates better than I do the implications of that section but, with regard to sub-section (4), the Minister would be wise to retain at least such power in his own hands as would prevent any board from closing down an industry without his consent. That is absolutely essential.

I wish the new board every good luck. They have a big job in front of them and the only thing that will ever cramp, stint or stultify their efforts will be shortage of cash. If we are genuine about our desire to keep our young people at home in rural areas, the key to the problem is simple — that is, to give them employment, and employment means money. Give the board the necessary money to establish industries in these areas and if such industries do not stop emigration completely, they will at least cut it down to harmless proportions.

Cormac Ua Breisleáin

Ba mhaith liom cúpla, focal a rá fán Bhille seo— Bille a bhfuil baint aige le muintir na Gaeltachta agus lena mbeatha, Bille, tá súil agam, a chuirfeas deireadh le himirce agus a fhágfas rathúnas ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta ó Thír Chonaill go Ciarraí. Tá an Ghaeltacht á bánú lá i ndiaidh lae, tá an t-aos óg á tréig-bheáil agus muna mbunaíthear tionscail ins na háiteanna seo ní bheidh sábháil le déanamh ar an Ghaeltacht. Tá na daoine ag fágaint na Gaeltachta le leath-chéad bliain anuas agus má leanann sin ní bheidh Gaeltacht ar bith ann i ndiaidh fiche bliain. Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo agus tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh Aíre na Gaeltachta agus an Bord nua a ndícheall an Ghaeltacht a choinneál beo.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt do Ghaeltarra Éireann as an méid tionscal a bhunaigh siad sa Ghaeltacht, i gCiarraí, i nGaillimh agus i dTír Chonaill, tionscail a bheireann fostaíocht do na céadta a chaithfeadh dul i gcéin ach go bé go bhfuil siad ansin.

Rinne na hoifigigh ins an Roinn agus ins na monarchain a gcuid oibre go héifeachtach agus tá muidne sa Ghaeltacat buíoch díobh. Más rud é go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht le sábháil, caithfear tarrtháil a dhéanamh uirthi in aithghiorracht agus tá sé de dhualgas ar an Rialtas sin a dhéanamh.

Ní aontaím leis na daoine adeireann nach ndearna Rialtais na hÉireann dada don Ghaeltacht ach isí an cheist anois — caidé eile atá le déanamh más rud é go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht le slánú. De thairbhe deontaisí ón Rialtas agus ón Chomhairle Chontae tá tithe comh maith sa Ghaeltacht inniu agus atá in aon áit eile sa tír. Gan dabht ar bith, tháinig biseach mór ar shaol na ndaoine sa Ghaeltacht le scór go leith blian, ar thithe na ndaoine, ar an chaighdeán beatha, ach ina dhiaidh sin is trua linne atá inár gcónaí i gcroí na Gaeltachta, bheith ag coimhéad ar an aos óg ag fágáil na tíre lá i ndiaidh lae. Ba cheart dúinn anois bheith ábalta i bhfad níos mó cuairteoirí a tharraingt chun na Gaeltachta. Ní bheidh sé i bhfad anois go mbeidh críoch curtha leís an scéim aibhléise ar an Claidigh agus le stáisiún na móna ag Mín a Cuing. Bhéarfaidh an stáisiún seo obair do mhórán ins na ceantair mhóna i nGaeltacht Thír Chonaill, agus cheana féin rinne aibhléis an saol níos socúlaí do bhean a tí agus cuideoidh sé fosta le tionscail a bhunú ar fud na Gaeltachta.

Mar adúras tá dualgas ar an Rialtas fóirithint ar an nGaeltacht go tapaidh. Tá saoirse againn ins na Sé chontae fichead agus ceannaíodh an tsaoirse sin go daor. Dá gcaillimís an tsaoirse sin ar maidin d'fhéadfaimís í a bhaint amach b'fhéidir i gceann 50 nó 100 bliain ach má chaillimid greim ar an nGaeilge ní féidir í a fháil ar ais. Ar an ábhar sin impímid ar an mBord úr a ndícheall a dhéanamh agus táim cinnte go ndéanfaidh siad sin i dtreo is go sábhálfar an Ghaeltacht agus go gcoimeádfar an t-aos óg sa bhaile.

Mr. Corish

Cosúil leis na Teachtaí eile, is mian liom comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Áire. That is just a preliminary in Irish because it is as much as I think I can do without being incoherent or unintelligible. I should like to make a few comments on this question. I am not one of those who is encouraged to speak Irish by way of grant for roads or houses, a special deontas under the Undeveloped Areas Act or anything like that. I learnt mine through the very imperfect system of teaching Irish that is now operated in the schools.

The Minister is charged with the affairs of the Gaeltacht. Everything he is doing or proposes to do in this Bill is, I expect, for the encouragement of the Irish language in those areas and to try to ensure that the Irish language will grow. Many efforts have been made in the past and much money has been spent to ensure that the Gaeltacht will grow and that the number of Irish speakers will accordingly increase. I should like to ask the Minister one simple question, because if I ask him too many, he can evade the main one, though not deliberately. Is the Gaeltacht growing or is it failing? He can take any period of years, the last five, ten, 20 or 50 years. Many of us over on the east coast want to know is the expenditure of so much money, relatively, on the Gaeltacht worth while?

If my information is correct, the Gaeltacht is a very small area indeed, something like the size of County Louth, or perhaps even half that size. I should qualify all these statements by saying that I want to see the Irish language a live language in Ireland, but I believe that the methods being employed, particularly in the schools, are doing nothing but attempting to kill the language.

Deputy Blowick said: "Lash the money into it." I think that is the expression he used. I do not think it should be lashed into it, and I do not think it is a fair crack of the whip for people from the east coast who have no Gaeltacht to have to look on as, in the words of Deputy Blowick, money is lashed into the Gaeltacht, unless we see results for it. We have not had results over the past 35 years. The Gaeltacht is particularly situated in respect of Government grants, and that is why I want to know if it is not worth while. I am not saying it is not, but the Minister, the Government and the departmental officials should know whether or not it is worth while. They have special housing grants over and above the ordinary housing grants, special road grants over and above the ordinary road grants, special bounties for Irish-speaking children. I am sure there are many more grants they enjoy that I cannot bring to mind at the moment.

The Minister for Local Government said to-day that, in view of our financial circumstances, we are doing pretty well by the old age pensioners, and that we could pay the old age pensioners only what the country could afford. He said it was a formidable bill — £11,000,000. When we add up all the money spent in the name of the Irish language, we ought to ask ourselves is it worth while. Again, I qualify all that by saying that I believe the Irish language can be revived, not with the lashing of money into the Gaeltacht, not with paying special bounties or allowances to those who can teach through Irish, but by a voluntary effort which should be encouraged and which can come from the people. It is only when we have compulsion that we cannot get things done. No matter what anybody may say, I believe that, in the schools at least, the Irish language is being forced down the necks of children who, in the heel of the hunt, will turn against it.

Deputy Lindsay talked about the recent difficulty in respect of the export of tweeds to America. It is unfortunate but I do not think we should entirely depend on the American market or any other market for the disposal of our tweeds. I do not think Irish people generally appreciate the value there is in Irish tweeds. We in the House do not seem to appreciate it. If there were a "Buy Irish Tweed" campaign, Gaeltarra Éireann would make tremendous strides. That would apply not merely to the factories owned by the Government but to the private enterprises that are manufacturing excellent tweeds. We should not depend on the German or American market too much, but should make our own people conscious of the excellence of Irish tweed and try to get them away from the idea that the English cloth is the best. There should be a home market for Irish tweed, not an exclusively export market.

Mr. Rooney

I shall contribute only a few words to the debate because, like Deputy Corish, I represent an eastern area which is not affected by the various problems with which this measure proposes to deal. This measure is designed to hand over responsibility from the Department of the Gaeltacht to a managing board which will organise industries and arrange for the sale of the finished articles and their export.

I am inclined to the view that we must examine the outlook of people in the western areas. Naturally, we must contribute towards their welfare in some way or another. They complain that they were driven to Connacht by Cromwell. This measure is an effort to keep them there and to preserve the Irish language amongst them. We should decide which is in the best interests of the nation — to adopt measures which will have the best cultural results or measures which will have the best economic results. In connection with many Gaeltacht schemes, apart from housing grants, road grants and rural improvement schemes, the emphasis is on home crafts and industries arising therefrom. Such schemes provide work mainly for womenfolk, while the men are obliged to emigrate. In my view, it would be better for the new board to concentrate on providing the type of activity that would keep the men at home in Connacht. We will not succeed in keeping the people in Connacht if we do not provide the kind of activity that will keep the men there, as well as the women. In that respect, I suggest that the new board should endeavour to encourage poultry-keeping, pig-rearing, forestry and other types of industries which would employ men.

I hope the new board will concentrate on building up an economy on the basis of agricultural or industrial activity in these areas — they are mainly rural areas — which will provide such incomes for men as will encourage them to remain at home and which will replace the system of emigration which exists there at the moment and which seems to go hand in hand with the home-craft industries which have been sponsored by the Gaeltacht Department and which will be handed over to the managing board.

Mr. J. Brennan

I welcome the measure before the House to-night. It certainly has not come before its time. When I spoke on the Estimate for Gaeltacht Services two years ago, I pointed out that, in fairness to private enterprise engaged in the same type of production as Gaeltarra Éireann, the duties of the board of Gaeltarra Éireann should be handed over to a private board in order to eliminate unfair competition. Deputies from Donegal are well aware of what the position was. People who were making every possible effort to place goods on the export market complained, rightly or wrongly, that Gaeltarra Éireann, which was in a position to go to the Exchequer at the end of the year for a subvention to make good any loss which it had sustained over the year, was able, when necessary, to undercut private enterprises that were trying to market their products. This Bill will eliminate that complaint.

Nobody suggests that Gaeltarra Éireann is not doing an excellent job in the tweed industry, but those private enterprises that have swelled their exports to America and other countries over the past few years will be happy to know that, in Gaeltarra Éireann, they will have a fair competitor and that any grouse or complaint they may have had in the past will be obviated by the establishment of this board which, I hope, will not give reason for any complaint from private enterprise in the future. It is a good omen. I believe the function of Gaeltarra Éireann was to set up industries which private enterprise could not undertake by reason of their type or location. We always regarded that as the main function of Gaeltarra Éireann.

When it was a matter of producing something which private enterprise could produce successfully, we did not think it necessary that a State-sponsored body should undertake such work. No matter how a State-sponsored industry may be run, overheads will outweigh the profits. If everyone is to keep himself correct in front of a superior or ultimately with his auditor, the overheads will on all occasions be many times that which they would be if the enterprise were run privately. That is unavoidable. It does not attach any blame to the officers who have brought Gaeltarra Éireann to the very fine state it has attained to-day. I hope we have a right to feel that the step which is now being taken is the beginning of a new and important era for the Gaeltacht and the congested areas.

I am more than interested in Section 4. It is by that section that the success of the new board will stand or fall. Under Section 4 they have power to establish new industries. If the board is an efficient one, it will take over and conduct successfully the work which is already well operated by Gaeltarra Éireann. If it can make a success of that at the outset, then it will be encouraged to expand, to establish new industries and — as we were saying a while ago in connection with a similar Bill which was before the House — we can find place for quite a few more industries of that type in some of the congested areas.

It is for that reason that we are enthusiastic with regard to the Bill which is before us to-night. Our enthusiasm may be justified. A good deal will depend, not on lashing money into it so much, as Deputy Blowick said, but on the useful, careful and prudent management of the money placed at its disposal. If the board undertakes its work in a businesslike way — it is handling an industry which can easily show a profit — it will be capable of expanding and we hope it will have no inhibitions about expansion in the areas concerned. If it sets about the work in that way, we may well welcome the measure to-night and look forward to a brighter era for the congested areas and for the Gaeltacht as a whole.

Deputy Corish — and Deputy Rooney, to some extent — gave us the other angle on this question of money for the Gaeltacht. I suppose that in the case of a Deputy from a part of Ireland which does not benefit under any of the little schemes which are calculated to benefit the Gaeltacht, it is only natural that he will see no good or little good in a piece of legislation such as this. We would remind those people that, apart from the important task of preserving the Gaeltacht and thus preserving our ancient culture and language, we have souls to feed and people to maintain in those congested areas, for there are more people to the square mile there than there would be in 20 square miles in some of the counties from which some of those Deputies come.

After all, in the last analysis, we are aiming at supporting more and more people instead of, as at the moment, a falling population. Those areas are congested areas; they contain a greater proportion of population than any other areas in the State. Therefore, we are expending some money on giving certain advantages to the Gaeltacht or congested areas. It is not money lashed out, as Deputy Corish seemed to indicate, for something which is doubtful — he questioned whether the Gaeltacht was expanding or shrinking — but it is money provided to keep people in a reasonably modest existence, in decent homes where they have always lived along the western seaboard. We will thus arrest the flight from those areas and the shrinkage of the Gaeltacht and the depopulation of those rural townlands on the western seaboard. If a Deputy is broadminded enough, I think that, irrespective of whether a piece of legislation of this kind is of benefit to his own constituency or not, he should see enough good in it to realise that it tends towards assisting an increasing population or arresting a declining population and in the last analysis that is what every side is geared to accomplish. If we do not achieve that, then we have achieved little success in any efforts we make in industry towards providing employment.

I do not want to deal with the question of any set-back Irish tweed has got. Irish tweed — or, as it is better known to us, Donegal tweed— is capable of surmounting any temporary set-back which it may experience on the world market, in America or elsewhere. It is interesting to note that its popularity, in spite of any tariff walls raised against it, is even in the ascendant to-day on the world market rather than in a decline in any area. The outlook there is good. If we produce sufficient, and of the perfect quality which we are producing at the moment, it is completely unnecessary to organise our own people to start wearing it, since there will be sufficient markets abroad to consume all we can produce. That will be so, so long as we keep abreast of the times, so long as we keep abreast of fashion and produce the type of material wanted by those who in advance are studying trends of markets abroad. Some of our producers in Donegal are sparing neither effort nor money to send representatives abroad, to appoint agents to study the trend of the market for years ahead. While we have people prepared to do that we need have no fear about the future of the tweed industry.

I hope that on the board which the Minister will appoint there will be at least a few people who will understand what tweed production is. I hope they will be business people who will understand what a competitive business and an export business are. I am not concerned with what politics they may have, if they are a board which will do a good job. They have an important task ahead of them. I would ask the Minister to impress upon them the importance of their duties under Section 4. It is the one section which would appeal to the people of those areas, that is, finally to expand the industry to the extent where more and more people will find suitable employment in the areas where it is so badly needed at the moment.

Mr. Wycherley

I am sorry indeed that I cannot report for my area the same as Deputy Brennan has done for his. In West Cork there is a considerable portion of Gaeltacht area — Ballyvourney, Ballingeary and Cape Clear Island. All down the years, since those areas were placed in the Gaeltacht, very little attention indeed has been given to them. Cape Clear, of course, is at a little disadvantage, being an island, with its nearest port nine miles from the mainland, the port of Baltimore.

I wonder, if we are to succeed in our deliberations to help these backward Gaeltacht areas, if it would be possible to establish some industry in the port of Baltimore, which is nine miles from Cape Clear. It is actually the port which serves that very big island. It would be desirable that the Minister should consider doing something to help those unfortunate people in Cape Clear. They have never received any assistance hitherto. The Minister is a new Minister and I appeal to him to ensure that the people in West Cork will not continue to be neglected in the future. I appeal to him to establish some new industries there under his aegis.

Micheál Mac Cárthaigh

Is í tábhacht an Bhille seo ná Alt 4, faoi mar adúirt mo chara, an Teachta Seosamh Ó Braonáin, agus seasfaidh nó titfidh an Bille de bharr an Ailt sin. Tá súil agam go gceapfaidh an tAire daoine don Bhord seo go bhfuil eolas maith acu ar an nGaeilge mar, muna ndéanfaidh sé é sin, níl sa mBille seo ach píosa páipéir. Tá súil agam — agus tá mé cinnte de nach dtiocfaidh cúrsaí polaitíochta isteach sa scéal. Is cuma liomsa cé hiad na daoine a cheapfas an tAire ach má cheapann sé daoine go bhfuil eolas acu ar an nGaeltacht agus ar na deacrachtaí a bhaineanns leis an gcuid sin den tír, faoi mar atáim cinnte de, déanfaidh an Bille seo gar mór don teanga agus do mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Sinne, a bhfuil eolas againn ar an nGaeltacht, tá a fhios againn go bhfuil sí ag cúlú. Mar adúirt an Teachta Cormac Ua Breisleáin cúpla nóiméad ó shoin, i gceann deich mbliana nó mar sin is fíor-bheag di a bheas fágtha muna ndéantar rud éigin ar a son gan mhoill. B'fhearr liomsa a lán tionscal beaga a feiceáil innti, tionscail cois teallaigh, mar shampla, ná aon tionscal mór amháin. Do bhí caint ann tamall beag ó shoin mar gheall ar an mbreidín ach breathnaigh anois ar an scéal nuair atá cuid mhaith den margadh a bhí againn ins na Stáit Aontaithe imithe. Bíodh sin mar atá, dá mbeadh chuid mhaith tionscail bheaga anseo is ansiúd tríd an nGaeltacht ceapaim go mbeadh sé i bhfad níos fearr mar dá dteipfeadh ar cheann acu ní theipfeadh ar an gceann eile. Tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh an Bord nua atá le ceapadh ag an Aire ceist na dtionscal beag in áiteacha anseo is ansiúd ar fud na Gaeltachta a chur fé mhion-scrúdú. Do bhí roinnt tionscail bheaga ann cheana agus dá ndéantaí iad d'athbheochaint agus d'athbhunú cé go bhfuil cuid acu imithe, dhéanfadh sé maitheas mór don Ghaeltacht.

Má tá scéim amháin a moladh don Ghaeltacht agus ar éirigh go rí-mhaith léi is í scéim na dtithe gloine í a cuireadh ar bun roint bhliain ó shoin. I dtús báire, do chaith roinnt Teachtaí droch-mheas ar an scéim sin ach tá a fhios agam gur éirigh léi go hanmhaith agus is féidir liom é sin a rá go háirithe mar gheall ar Ghaeltacht Chonamara, an chuid sin den Ghaeltacht go bhfuil an-eolas agamsa uirthi.

I gcionn tamallín, beidh an Bille seo ina Acht. Iarraim arís ar an Aire a bheith an-chúramach ar fad maidir leis na daoine a toghfar don Bhord seo. Braitheann an Bille ar na daoine a toghfar. Is cuma cé hiad; is cuma cén creideamh polaiticiúil atá acu; impím ar an Aire gan daoine a thogadh don Bhord seo nach bhfuil eolas maith agus tuiscint acu ar an nGaeltacht agus ar na daoine atá inti.

Pádraig Pámar

Ceart go leor.

Mr. McMenamin

While I am gratified at the introduction of a measure of this kind to deal with a problem that seems to have evaded solution since the foundation of this State — one cannot say it had been solved prior to that —there are certain remarks which I must offer. When one looks back over the past 35 years, the little that has been done in relation to this matter is a semi-tragedy. One feels, for that reason, somewhat sceptical as to the possibility of the success of the present proposals. Apparently the success of the proposals revolves around the board. I do not know how one should approach that matter. Whether or not one should approach it with confidence will depend on who is appointed to the board. Unless the members of the board are people in whom the people of the Gaeltacht have confidence and also in whom the people of the country have confidence then one must be quite sceptical about the prospects of the success of this measure.

Speaking for myself, I feel sceptical about this proposal — coming, as it does, 35 years after the foundation of this State. How is it that it did not dawn before to-day on those in control? What has induced us to take this step, after all that long period of years? It is a confession of the absolute failure of efforts by various Governments in the past because a failure it has been, I regret to have to say. One would like to speak rather severely of this chapter in our history, in our dealing with this problem.

In my opinion, the very first thing that should have been done in connection with this matter was to make a national effort to create an industrial arm in this country. The obvious place in which to develop that arm was where there was an abundance of labour and that abundance of labour was available in the area with which we are now dealing.

Anybody considering the setting up of an industry will look first of all for availability of labour in the area concerned. You cannot establish a new industry or extend an old one in an area where labour is not available. Here we are, after 35 years, and we have not made the position any better in these areas. What should have been done at the beginning was to establish a board which should have been given ample funds, controlled by this House, to establish industries from Donegal to Kerry. Had that been done originally, the Irish language and the Irish way of life about which we hear so much might have been preserved.

Actually the position has become worse after 35 years. In areas where the Irish language was spoken exclusively 35 years ago the people are now, at best, bilingual. Many of them have lost the language entirely. We have been fiddling while Rome was burning. Nothing practical was done in these years. A board such as I have suggested could have, 35 years ago, made employment available in the Gaeltacht areas which would have kept the young people at home. How did we expect the young people to remain at home when they had not available to them weekly pay packets? Did anybody think that these young people, reading about high wages elsewhere, would remain at home where there was nothing for them? Perhaps that could happen 60 or 70 years ago when there was no radio and when newspapers were not plentiful in these areas. That position does not obtain now: these young people know everything now; they are as well up as the people in Dublin City.

We have been talking during the years about preserving the Irish language, about preserving Irish traditions and Irish culture while all these things have been dying slowly for lack of support from us. I am very cynical and sceptical about all that has been said in this regard during the past 35 years. I have nothing but the best wishes and the best hopes for this Bill. I hope it will have the success that it deserves. My belief is that there is only one way to cure this position and that is to create employment with consequential weekly pay packets for the young people in the Gaeltacht areas. That is the only cure.

At the moment, these young people are handicapped at the start. There is no attraction for them at home. Accordingly, the members of any new board which is set up will have to take off their gloves. Any such board must be comprised of men with wide experience and wide ability in big business. The members of such a board must have vision, courage and industrial ability. Otherwise their work will fail and there will be a worsening instead of an improvement in the position we are now trying to cure.

We must be prepared to devote huge sums of money to the establishment of industries in the Gaeltacht areas. I will not attempt to suggest the sum that would be required to do the work that is needed, but some very large sum must be earmarked if an impression is to be made on the solution of this problem. The necessary attractions must be provided to keep the youth of these areas at home with their parents until such time as they get married and set up homes for themselves. One of the difficulties confronting this board is whether at the moment there are sufficient young people in the areas to man the factories it is proposed to set up. Unless these industries are created this Bill is mere eye-wash. I do not use that term in any offensive way, but for want of a better word.

We have all this talk about the Irish language, but some of these areas have become English-speaking, and Irish is not spoken there at all. In my own native parish, 50 or 60 years ago, and before that, there was practically nothing spoken but Irish; now there is not a word of Irish spoken there, unless you meet some of the old people who bid you the time of day or God's blessing in Irish. The young people have all been away to England, Scotland, Wales or America and have lost contact with the language entirely. That is the result of our efforts. This is a new adventure. We are sending up a new satellite, as it were, and I hope that its motive power will be as successful as that of the recent satellite, that it will keep going and will overcome every obstacle.

The only way that success can be achieved is through the character of the men appointed to the board, if they have the qualifications to which I have referred and if this House makes available to them the money which they consider essential to create industries down the whole line from Donegal to Cork. Let nobody deceive himself; it is, was, and will continue to be a huge and difficult problem. I baulk at the problem when I think of this House making available to them the amount of money which I think they would require to make a success of the job. I have sprung from these people and I have watched the tragedy of their decline and their departure from this country. I shall be proud of these measures if they succeed, but yet I face them as a sceptic, and I make no apology for that.

We are dealing with a problem that has so far evaded solution, for the reasons I have already stated. If we are to tackle it, let us tackle it with vision, courage, and energy, plus the necessary cash. I certainly shall not condemn the men appointed to this board if they fail in their efforts because of lack of finances, because this is, was and will remain a question of finance in regard to floating and keeping afloat these industries. Let us not talk about what we have done. We have some handwoven tweed industries, but we always had them and there is nothing new about them. There was practically no townland in the Gaeltacht that had not one or two weaving houses. They have now become centralised; their products have become a huge success and they are a credit to the Department.

The board will require the assistance of this House as soon as it tackles the job and shows itself capable of making a success of it. We cannot hand these men five broken swords. That has been done already and has ended in disaster. The very introduction of this Bill is an admission of failure. Sixty years ago, these areas were comfortably happy. They had an Irish way of living; they were far happier than they are to-day; but they underwent a revolution, and I use that word in the sense that these people desired progress and aimed at a higher standard of life. That is natural in human beings and it will continue to be. Certainly I could not condemn young people for leaving the Gaeltacht areas and hoping for a higher standard of life, but I am very doubtful that they have found it. Many of them are perhaps financially better off, but financial success is not everything; there is more in life than money. Yet we find thousands of them going miles away to get lost. That is the tragedy of the whole situation and anybody who does not admit it is evading the whole question. I wish the Minister good luck and God's blessing, prosperity and success in his endeavours.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Tá mé féin idir dhá intinn, ag breithniú dhom ar an gceist, cé acu ba cheart an gnó bheith ar siúl ag Gaeltarra Éireann mar atá sé, nó é a chur fé bhord neamhspleách. Is féidir a rá gur shíleamar go ndéanfaí níos mó ná mar atá déanta. Tá níos mó déanta i bhFálcarrach. Ní féidir linn breithniú a thabhairt go fóill ar an obair a cuirfear ar bun de bharr an Bhille seo.

Tá súil agam go gcuirfear feabhas ar na tionscail tuaithe atá bunaithe. Tá súil agam fosta go leathnóidh obair na dtionscal seo agus go gcuirfear tionscail nua tuaithe ar bun de bharr obair an bhoird. Dúradh anseo anuraidh go raibh a lán airgid á chaitheamh ar Ghaeltarra Éireann agus sa Ghaeltacht.

Caithfear "dole" a thabhairt do na daoine a bhí dí-fhostaithe ins na tionscail seo agus i dtionscal an bhréidín agus nach fearr don Rialtas tionscail tuaithe den tsaghas seo a chur ar fáil agus airgead a thabhairt de thairbhe na hoibre ná "dole" nó "unemployment benefits" agus deontais eile a thabhairt do dhaoine nach mbeadh ag obair? Sílim gur fearr i bhfad an t-airgead a chur ar fáil do na daoine ar an gcuma sin ná é a thabhairt gan fónamh ar bith.

Rud eile, sílim gur cheart cuidiú leis na comhluchtaí príobháideacha a bheadh i mbun an tsaghas chéanna oibre. Má tugtar deontais do Ranna rialtais agus do bhord nua den tsaghas seo chun tionscail tuaithe d'fheabhsú, nach ceart rud éigin a thabhairt do chomhluchtaí príobháideacha agus do dhaoine príobháideacha atá ag déanamh an tsaghas chéanna oibre ar a gcuid airgid féin?

I am not too sure whether the new board will be an improvement on the existing arrangement in regard to these Gaeltacht cottage industries and industries such as hand-weaving which were run, in the main, by Gaeltarra Éireann. That does not say that I have any fears that a board such as this will fall short of the work that has been done. They can progress. It is too soon to say that it is a better or a worse arrangement than we had previously.

Séamus Díolún

Cad na thaobh gur athraigh an Teachta ón Ghaeilge go dtí an Béarla?

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Tá cúis agam leis.

Séamus Díolún

Tá Gaeilge ag an Aire, tá a fhios agat.

Micheál Ó Móráin

Agus agatsa freisin.

Séamus Díolún

Beagáinín di.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Ar labhair an Teachta go fóill? I think that a board such as this can do very useful work. I hope — I am not too clear on this point — that moneys will be made available from time to time to this new board. They should be told they are being given a certain sum of money to carry on and try to make the business of Gaeltacht industries pay its way. It is a good aim but I should like to be sure that moneys will be made available, if necessary—up to now it has been necessary — and that these moneys will be available in the future to carry on and improve these industries.

Two things are required. In establishing any new industries and improving existing ones, the idea should be to help the people of the Gaeltacht to get employment in the Gaeltacht areas. Secondly, we should try to improve and develop existing cottage industries which are in areas outside the Gaeltacht, in the West of Ireland and the western seaboard generally. It is important to the country that these Industries should be developed even if they are outside the Gaeltacht area. Where new industries can be set up, even if they are outside the Gaeltacht area, the board should assist them, provided they are in what is known as the Ceantair Cúnga.

The board should not confine itself solely to the purely Gaeltacht areas. Industries of this kind should be fostered and helped in the Breac-Ghaeltacht and other areas of the West of Ireland. I would also urge that the new board should assist private individuals and private companies who are doing the same kind of work in the congested areas as the board itself will be doing. After all, when an individual or a group of individuals sets up cottage industries or an industry such as hand-weaving at least some help should be given to keep that industry going so that there will be fair competition between private and State-owned or semi-State owned industries.

A good deal has been said to-night about the large sums of money spent in the Gaeltacht and in the West generally. It is no harm to spend these sums of money. They are not outlandish sums, by any means. Comparison with larger sums spent in other directions shows that the amount spent for development of the Gaeltacht is comparatively small. If these sums were not spent in order to keep industries useful to the people, to the Gaeltacht and the State as a whole, in existence, the State would then have to meet unemployment and the payment of unemployment assistance and other unemployment benefits in these areas.

Therefore, this is something which I favour very much, even though it costs the State money to provide work and have goods such as Donegal tweed and other products of Gaeltarra Éireann factories and depots available on the markets at home and for export. It is better we should have these than that we should have to pay various social welfare benefits. It is better for the country, the Government and, above all, better for the people themselves. In the West of Ireland, what they want is work; they want to produce goods, and it is only when work is not available that they resort to unemployment benefit of one kind or another, or take the emigrant ship. I think the people of the West prefer to emigrate rather than depend on doles and other allowances from the State.

A good deal more can be done. We had the ex-Minister for the Gaeltacht referring to the slump at the moment and he said that just because there was a slump, we should do nothing about Gaeltacht industries or cottage industries in the West——

Mr. Lindsay

I said no such thing.

Mr. Cunningham

What he did say was that we should not set up the board——

Mr. Lindsay

I said no such thing.

Mr. Cunningham

Right. My impression of what he said was——

Mr. Lindsay

Quote.

Mr. Cunningham

——that this was not the time we should set up the board; that we should not seek to improve on what we had——

Mr. Lindsay

I said no such thing.

Mr. Cunningham

——because the bottom seemed to have fallen out of the American market——

Mr. Lindsay

I said no such thing.

Mr. Cunningham

——and because of that, everything was lost.

Mr. Lindsay

I said no such thing.

Mr. Cunningham

I do not think we should have such a pessimistic view just because the Americans have increased the tariffs on imported tweeds from 25 per cent. to 45 per cent. With the help the new board can give, with new energy and a new drive and exploration of other markets — and there are other markets as well as the American market — we can improve on the very favourable position in which Donegal tweeds and other products of Gaeltarra Éireann are, or were up to a few months ago.

We had slumps before. The last speaker came in here running down Donegal tweed and the price and quality of it, tearing it up here in the Dáil. Yet, by sheer perseverance, by State and technical assistance of all kinds, we were able to improve our product to the stage when it is now regarded, not alone here but all over the world, as a first-class article of clothing, fetching high prices in foreign markets.

The new board would be well advised to seek other markets than America. We had a good innings there and there are no grounds to fear that market will fail us completely. Even if it does not fail us, we should still seek other markets because we have a first class article for sale and one which is sought by foreigners who come here.

When I mentioned that the board should assist private individuals, I had in mind one case where a local group in Clonmany, County Donegal, has started weaving classes. A local committee has provided a hall and secured an instructor from the vocational committee and they have 10 very enthusiastic boys attending. Inishowen is an area where weaving was carried on but died out, and this is an effort to revive it. The weaving classes are in progress now and will continue for some months, and I would urge that when those classes are finished, every assistance should be given to the boys — I know they will be anxious to continue to improve their knowledge of weaving — by allowing them to purchase thread and after that, by seeing to it that a market is found in which to sell the goods they produce.

While up to now, the industry is confined to purely Gaeltacht areas, I think where private groups such as the one I mentioned are anxious to introduce the industry to other congested areas, they should be given every assistance, because while it may not help the Gaeltacht, it will do it no harm and it will help the country and congested areas. It will prevent emigration or payment of social benefits.

I trust the new board will be more successful than Gaeltarra Éireann has been, although, unlike the speaker who has just concluded, or the Minister, I would say that Gaeltarra Éireann has had a good deal of success, despite initial difficulties of great magnitude. It was not easy to succeed when Gaeltarra Éireann first went into the Kilcar factory, at a time when, not alone Donegal tweed but any Irish-manufactured article had keen competition here. It was not easy to go down there and help in the manufacture of Donegal tweed, but they did it and they have kept up the drive, with the result that we have come a long way since then. I want to give them credit for work well done, despite many handicaps.

Some people may say more could be done. Possibly it could; had there been more money available, a good deal more could be done. That is why I mentioned earlier that I am anxious to know whether sums of money will be made available from time to time to the new board in such a way that they will not be asked at too early a date to carry on under their own steam. It would be bad to set up a board, give them money and then cut them adrift. I hope it is not the intention to do that. State aid should be forthcoming, especially if it is clear, as it is in this case, that the board will advance and expand existing industries. I should like to sound that note of warning. It was mentioned that the board would be something on the style of some of our existing boards such as the E.S.B., the Turf Board and the Sugar Company who are able to carry on without any State aid. As far as I can see, knowing the position in the Gaeltacht and the congested areas, State aid must be a feature of Government policy for a long number of years.

Mr. Palmer

The various views expressed by Deputies on this Bill are interesting. The object of the Bill is to set up a board and the various clauses dealing with it set out the salaries and pensions of the members of the board and the members of their staff. The real point is should we or should we not have such a board?

During all the years this State has been in existence, this problem of the Gaeltacht seems to have been the Cinderella of Irish politics. At the very outset, there was a kind of partition of the country. I am not now referring to the Partition of the North. We had the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, the Gaeltacht, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and the Galltacht. One Partition should have been enough. I know the people of the Gaeltacht. I was born and reared there and I grew up amongst them.

This problem of the Gaeltacht is really historical. It is a problem that will not be solved for very many years. It will not be solved by the setting up of a Minister for the Gaeltacht or by setting up a Gaeltacht Board. My personal view is that this problem is one that goes very deeply into Irish history. I need not develop that here because Deputies know it began during the Plantation time when the people were driven back from Leinster and Northern Munster. That is what brought about the congestion of the Gaeltacht and the undeveloped areas we were discussing earlier to-day.

The only solution I can see is this. Those people have a perfect right to come back, where possible, to the land from which their ancestors were driven. We talk a lot about setting up industries in the Gaeltacht for the preservation of the Irish language. The problem will be eventually solved in this way — it should have been solved to a great extent earlier — that when those large estates in the Midlands and in eastern Ireland are divided——

Captain Giles

When will that be?

Mr. Palmer

Numbers of them have been divided. Bring those people from the congested Gaeltacht areas back to those lands. Eventually, you will have solved the problem of the Gaeltacht because you will then be able to have economic holdings for the people who remain behind. Is that not the problem of the Department of Lands and of the Land Commission? They are very slow about doing their job.

There is another question. Around the whole coast of the Gaeltacht areas and the undeveloped areas, there are the finest fishing grounds in the world. Is it not the problem of the Minister for Lands in charge of fisheries to develop those fisheries to such an extent that we shall be able to give employment to those who cannot live on the land? Furthermore, all the beauty spots of this country's tourist areas are along the west, south-west and south coasts. By developing them, we can also develop and help those areas. Surely it is also for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to look after whatever industries may be set up under the Undeveloped Areas Act? Is it not also the duty of the Department of Agriculture to do everything possible to help the farmers in the Gaeltacht areas to drain, reclaim and fertilise their lands?

I cannot see the necessity in the first place for setting up a Ministry for the Gaeltacht. That is my personal view. But if it is set up, then I think the Minister should be responsible for his Department, without any help from a board. We have too many boards entirely in this country. Ministers have various boards and advisory boards. They are all expensive. Every Ministry and every board set up will mean extra expense. We hear a lot of talk about restriction of credit, adverse trade balances and so on, yet we are always doing something that involves further expenditure. I am sure this very Bill will involve a great deal of extra expenditure. I have no idea what the amount will be. Perhaps the Minister will tell us when he is replying, but I suppose he could not really estimate what it will be eventually.

Cuireadh an díospóireacht ar athló.