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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 6 May 1958

Vol. 167 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 49—Roinn na Gaeltachta

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £292,500 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Márta, 1959, le haghaidh Tuarastal agus Costas Roinn na Gaeltachta maille le Deontais le haghaidh Tithe agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

Taispeánann an meastachán don bhliain seo breis de £51,560 glan thar an soláthar a rinneadh don bhliain seo caite. Chífear gur méadú sa tsoláthar do na Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin is mó faoi ndear an méadú sin ach taobh amuigh de sin tá athrú bunúsach sa Mheastachán seo de bharr Bord neamhspleách a bheith bunaithe do na tionscail tuaithe—sé sin, in ionad soláthar sonrach a dhéanamh do chuspóirí éagsúla na dtionscal mar a deintí roimhe seo tá soláthar do Dheontas-igCabhair don Bhord. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais chuige seo níos déanaí ach ba mahaith liom a mhíniú don Dáil conas mar d'athraigh bunú an Bhoird foirm an Mheastacháin.

Maidir le Fo-mhírchinn A, B Agus C, chífrar nach bhfuil soláthar dá dhéanamh i mbliana Íaoi Fho-mhírcheann A do phostanna éagsúla cléireachais agus teichiúla a bhíodh ann do na tionscail tuaithe. Tá formhór na nOifigeach a bhí fostaithe sna postanna sin tugtha ar iasacht sealadach don Bhord. Tá soláthar i gcnapshuimeanna faoi Fho-mhírcheann A do thuarastail na nOifigeach sin agus tá soláthar faoi Fho-mhírechinn B agus C dá gcostais taistil agus costais teagmhasacha a bhaineann leo, ach chífear go bhfuil soláthar freisin faoi Fho-mhírecheann R. 5 chun a geaithfear ar na hOifigigh sin atá ar iasacht d'aisghnóthú ón mBord. Mar sin, ní bheidh de mhuirear glan ar Vóta na Roinne ach tuarastaií agus costais na nOifigeach atá fostaithe ar obair na Roinne féin.

Maindir leis na tionscail tuaithe, a bhíodh faoi stiúrú mo Roinne-se roimhe seo, mar is eol do na Teachtaí eitheadh an tAcht Um Thionscail na Gaeltachta anuraidh. I bhfeidhmiú na gcumhacht a tugadh dom faoi Alt 2 den Acht sin, tá an chéad lá d'Aibreán, 1958, ceaptha agam mar an lá bunaithe, agus dá réir sin tá rialú agus bainistíocht na dTionscal aistrithe anois chuig Bord ar a nglaoítear Gaeltarra Éireann.

Dá bhrí sin, ní déantar siláthar i meastachán mo Roinne do na tionscail tuaithe amhail a rinneadh sna blianta roimhe seo. Ina ionad, tá soláthar á dhéanamh fé Fho-mhírcheann D sa mheastachán seo le haghaidh deontas-i-gcabhair de mhéid £220,000 chun a chur ar chumas an Bhoird a chuid dualgas a chomhlíonadh. Tuigfear, ar nodóigh, gur breis an deontas-i-gcabhair ar aon teacht-isteach is féidir a bheas ar fáil don Bhord ó dhíol déantúisí na dtionscal tuaithe. Roimhe seo taispeántaí an teacht-isteach sin i meastachán mo Roinne mar leithreasaí-i-gcabhair—Fomhírcheann R.

Fé mar a socraítear faion Acht, cuirfidh an Bord at fáil dom in am tráth cuntais bhliantúla iniúchtha maraon le tuarascáil ar a n-imeachta i geaitheamh na bliana, agus leagfar cóipeanna de na cuntais agus den tuarascáil bhliantúil faoi bhtáid gach Tí den Oireachtas.

Le linn na bliana atá thart bhí méadú i ndíol earraí de gach tionscal. Mhéadaigh díolacháin bréidín de níos mó ná triocha-sé míle punt. Mhéadaigh díolacháin earraí maisín-chniotála de níos mó ná fiche-seacht míle punt. Mhéadaigh díolacháin earraí na dtionscal láimhe—sé sin láimh-chniotáil, cróise agus bróidnéireacht—de níos mó ná trí mhíle déag punt, agus, i gcás ná mBréagán, bhí méadú de níos mó ná hocht míle punt ann.

Mar sin bhí méadú iomlán de níos mó ná ochtó-sé míle punt sna díolacháin, uile, sa bhliain seo caite. Chuir an méadú sin na díolacháin suag go dtí £580,000 i gcomparáid le tuairim £494,000 don bhliain roimhe sin. Tríd síos bhí cúrsaí trádála na dtionscal tuaithe go sásúil i rith na bliana. Maidir leis an scéal amach anseo, is deacair é a mheas go cruinn ag an am seo. Bhí deacrachtaí ar leith i gcúrsaí díolacháin an bhréidín sna Stáit Aontaithe toisc an dleacht ar éadach olla agus uarstaid a bheith ardaithe ó 25% go dtí 45% ó mhí Iúil seo caite. Tá áthas orm a rá, áfach, gur éirigh linn an dleacht ardaithe sin d'fháil maolaithe go dtí 30% i gcás an bhréidín láimh-fhite tré bhithin ionadaí a cuireadh go Washington chun cás an tionscail bhréidín láimh-fhite a phléadáil i Mí Nollag seo caite.

Maidir leis na tionscail torthaí mara déantar soláthar dóibh fé Fho-mhírcheann E, agus tá an soláthar beagnach mar an gcéanna agus a bhí sé anuraidh. Clúdaítear ann ceannach agus seachadadh slata mara agus carraigín a díoltar le Arramara Teoranta, gnólucht ar leis an Stát formhór na scaireanna ann. Tá monarcha ag an ngnólucht seo i gCill Chiaráin, Conamara, ina ndéantar na slata mara a thriomú agus a mheilt. Déanann an gnólucht an mbin d'onnmhuiriú dá éis sin faoi chonradh atá acu le gnólucht iasachta. Déantar an carraignín d'ullmhú do mhargaí éagsúla sa Bhreatain agus ar an Mór-Roinn. Tá breis agus fiche duine ar fostú lán-aimseartha ag an ngnólucht seo.

Fé mar is eol don Tigh cheana, leagtar cuntais an ghnóluchta, maille le tuarascáil bhliantúil ar a chuid oibre, ar Bhord na Dála gach bliain.

Faoi Fho-Mhírcheann F, déantar soláthar le haghaidh deontas faoi Achta na dTithe (Gaeltacht). Sa bhliain 1957-58, tháinig laghdú, a raibh coinne leis, ar an méid oibre a rinneadh faoi na hAchta. I dtús na bliana sin, hí ceist ann faoi na deontais forlíontacha ó na húdaráis áitiúla a bheith ar fáil agus, mar gheall air sin, bhí o leor deontaithe nár thosnaigh ar an bair go dtí go raibh sé ró-dhéanach le go bhféadfaí íocaíocht a dhéanamh leo sa bhliain airgeadais sin. Ar an ábhar sin, meastar gur mó an caiteachas a heas ann i mbliana.

Is féidir nach mbeidh na deontais rlíontacha ar fáil ó na húdaráis áitiúla uile, ach ní braithfear a thoradh sin go hiomlán sa bhliain airgeadais seo ach amháin i gcás líon na n-iarratas úr—is dóigh go mbeidh laghdú mór orthu sin. On méid cásanna atá ceadaithe cheana féin, ní dealraitheach go mbeidh aon laghdú ar an obair a déanfar. Sna cúrsaí uile, ceaptar gur leor an £90,000 atá á sholáthar i mbliana.

Sa bhliain airgeadais seo caite, críochnaíodh ós cionn 200 tithe nua, feabhsaíodh beagán níos mó ná sin, cuireadh saoráidí séarachais agus soláthar uisce príobháideach ar fáil i gceithre fichid sean-tithe agus rinneadh leathnúchán speisialta le haghaidh cuairteoirí ar chúig cinn déag de thithe.

Tugadh sonraí áirithe, i ndáil le Meastachán na bliana seo caite, i dtaobh na scéimeanna éagsúla a bhfuil soláthar á dhéanamh dóibh faoi Fho-Mhírcheann G. Ní raibh ach scéim amháin díobh siúd .i. Scéim na mBóthar Gaeltachta, a bhféadfaí bheith ag súil leis go gcuirfí i gcrích go tapaidh í. Maidir leis na scéimeanna eile, ba éigin do na húdaráis áitiúla nó do na dreamanna eile a bhí i gceist roinnt mhaith ullmhúcháin a dhéanamh roimh ré ina leith sa chuid is mó de na cásanna. Ar an ábhar sin, cé gur tharla i gcás cuid mhaith tograí go raibh an pointe sroiste acu, roimh dheireadh na bliana airgeadais seo caite, ina bhféadfaí iad a cheadú go sonrach, ní raibh ach fíor-bheagán tograí ann inar ghá aon íocaíocht a dhéanamh ina leith. D'fhág san gurbh í an tsuim £45,000 a híocadh i leith Scéim na mBóthar Gaeltachta an príomh-chaiteachas as an bhfo-mhírcheann seo sa bhliain 1957-58. Maidir leis na scéimeanna eile a ndéantar soláthar dóibh faoin bhfo-mhírcheann is léir, ar na cúinsí a luadh cheana, gur sa bhaliain airgeadais reatha a braithfear muirear na scéimeanna sin don chéad uair.

Tá méadú £48,000 déanta ó anuraidh ar an soláthar faoi Fho-Mhírcheann G sa bhliain airgeadais reatha, sé sin, £125,000 i gcomparáid le £77,000. Tá gá leis an méadú sin chun go bhféadfar cuid de na scéimeanna a tugadh isteach cheana a leathnú agus chun go mbeidh airgead ar fáil le haghaidh roinnt scéimeanna nua nach ndearnadh aon tsocrú cinnte ina dtaobh faoi mheastachán na bliana seo caite.

Seacht gcinn de scéimeanna Íeabhsúcháin atá i gceist i bhFo-Mhírcheann G anois. Is iad seo a leanas na scéimeanna:— (1) Scéim trínar féidir do Roinn na Gaeltachta deontas 100% den chostas a thabhairt do na hUdaráis Aitiúla d'fhonn feabhas a chur ar mhion-bhóithre contae sa Ghaeltacht, a cheapas an Roinn chuige sin tar éis comhairle a ghlacadh leis na húdaráis áitiúla sin agus leis an Roinn Rialtais Aitiúil.

Táthar ar intinn feidhm na scéime sin a leathnú sa bhliain airgeadais reatha le go bhféadfar soláthar den tsórt céanna a dhéanamh i leith an chineál bóthair ar a dtugtar bóthar áise .i. bóithre nach mbíonn aon bhaint ag na húdaráis áitiúla leo. Maidir leis na bóithre áirithe sin, is í an Roinn a thoghfas iad i gcomhairle le hOifig na Scéimeanna Fostaíochta Speisialta agus is ar an Oifig sin a bheas an cúram i dtaobh na hoibreacha a chur i gcrích tar éis a gceaduithe.

(2) Scéim trína gcuírtear ar chumas na Roinne deontaisí a thabhairt d'údaráis áitiúla mar chabhair chun mion-scéimeanna uisce-sholáthair a chur i gcrích sa Ghaeltacht. Is í an Roinn a thoghann na tograí, tar éis dí comhairle a ghlacadh leis na húdaráis áitiúla agus leis an Roinn Rialtais Aitiúil.

Ó tugadh Meastachán na bliana seo caite isteach táthar tar éis feidhm na scéime sin a leathnú le go bhféadfaidh an Roinn deontaisí 25% den chostas measta a thabhairt freisin i gcás mórscéimeanna, mó scéimeanna réigiúnacha, uisce-sholáthair agus séarachais sa Ghaeltacht. Tugtar an deontas sin 25% i dteannta an ghnáth-chúnaimh airgid a chuireann an Roinn Rialtais Aitiúil ar fáil i gcásanna den tsórt sin, agus toghtar na tograí ar an mbealach céanna ina dtoghtar na mionscéimeanna uisce-sholáthair a luadh cheana.

(3) Scéim trína gcuirtear ar chumas na Roinne deontaisí 100% den chostas a chur ar fáil i leith muir-oibreacha áirithe sa Ghaeltacht ar choinníoll go mbeidh na húdaráis áitiúla iomchuí sásta cothabháil na n-oibreacha sin a ghlacadh mar chúram orthu féin tar éis a ndéanta. Fágtar faoi Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí, de ghnáth, tograí den tsórt sin a chur i gcrích.

(4) Scéim trína gcuirtear ar chumas na Roinne deontaisí, nach mó ná 80% den choctas de ghbáth, a thabhairt d'údaráis áitiúla, nó do chomhluchtaí nó coistí iontaofa eile, mar chabhair chun áiseanna éagsúla, mar shampla, páirceanna imeartha, cúirteanna liathróide láimhe agus a leithéid, a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Ní mór na heagrais sin a bheith sásta cothabháil na saoráidí sin a ghlacadh orthu féin tar éis iad a bheith ar fáil.

(5) Scéim trína geuirtear cúnamh airgid agus cúnamh eile ar fáil d'iarratasóirí oiriúnacha sa Ghaeltacht mar chabhair chun cránacha a cheannach agus a bheathú. Tugadh sonraí na scéime don Dáil cheana agus táim sásta go bhfuil ag éirí go maith leis. Dá chomhartha sin, tá an Coimisiún Muc agus Bagúin tar éis níos mó ná céad go leith cránacha a dháiliú ar iarratasóirí faoin scéim. Tugtar síolta agus ábhair leasuithe ar théarmaí speisialta do na hiarratasóirí a ceadaítear faoin scéim.

(6) Scéim trína bhféadfaidh an Roinn airgead a chur ar fáil d'fhonn Scéim na dTithe Gloine sa Ghaeltacht a leathnú. Tá ar intinn ag an Roinn, i gcomhar leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta, suas le £50,000 a chur ar fáil chun tuilleadh tithe a mbeidh gléasanna téimh ionta a thógáil agus chun gléasanna téimh a chur i roinnt eile tithe atá ann cheana.

(7) Scéim chun cabhrú le meánscolaíocht sa Ghaeltacht. Mar gheall ar an easpa meánscolaíochta sa Ghaeltacht, is beag an bhreith a bhíos ag buachaillí agus cailíní óga sa Ghaeltachta ar an oideachas a bhéarfadh postanna rathúla dhóibh sa tseirbhís phoibilí, sna gairmeacha ná, i gcoitinne, i saol tráchatála na tíre. Agus ar an taobh eile, is cailliúint don Stát gan cainteoirí dúchais oilte a bheith i roinnt postanna den tsórt sin. Chun an scéal sin a leigheas, tá scéim ceadaithe anois trína bhféadfaidh Roinn na Gaeltachta deontaisí airgid a thabhairt, ar choinníollacha áirithe, chun cóiríocht meánscolaíochta a sholáthar, a fheabhsú nó a leathnú sa Ghaeltacht. Fé mar is eol don Dáil, ní thugann an Stát cabhair den tsórt sin le haghaidh meánscolaíochta i gcoitinne, agus is eisceacht ar fad cás na Gaeltachta sa tslí sin.

I dteannta na scéimeanna atá luaite agam, tá tograí éagsúla eile ullamh nó á n-ullmhú ag an Roinn i gcomhairle leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta agus leis na coistí talmhaíochta contae. Mar shampla, tá scéim trialach ceadaithe chun subhanna talún d'fhás i leith-inis an Daingin i gCo. Chiarraighe agus tá Coiste Talmhaíochta Chontae Chiarraighe ag féachaint i ndiaidh na hoibre. Tá scéim trialach eile ar siúl faoi choimirce na Roinne Talmhaíochta in Árainn féachaint an fúidir fásóga inniúin a thairgeadh ann. Má éiríonn go maith leis na scéimeanna trialacha sin, leathnófar go dtí áiteanna oiriúnacha eile iad ar fud na Gaeltachta.

Tá míle tunt á sholáthar arís i mbliana chun deontais bheaga a thabhairt le haghaidh imeachtaí cultúrtha agus sóisialacha sa Ghaeltacht. Níor baineadh mórán feidhme as an gcúnamh seo anuraidh, ach is cosúil go bhfuil muintir na Gaeltachta ag cur tuilleadh suime anois ann agus go mbeidh éileamh ar an soláthar iomlán i mbliana. Cheana féin tá roinnt tograí a bhaineas le fearaistí stáitse, oirnéisí ceoil, feiseanna agus a leithéid faoi bhreithniú ag an Roinn.

Mar is eol do na Teachtaí, do haistríodh roinnt seirbhísí chun mo Roinnse ón Roinn Oideachais. Is é an ceann is tábhachtaí orthu sin ná an bónas £5 a tugtar faoi scéim a bunaíodh i 1934, do thuismitheoirí nó caomhnóirí sa Ghaeltacht nó sa Bhreac-Ghaeltacht, i leith páistí scoile leo idir 7-17 mbliana d'aois, arb í an Ghaeilge teanga a dteaghlaigh agus a labhrann í go líofa nádúrtha. Is é cuspóir na scéime seo an Ghaeilge a chothú agus a choinneáil mar theanga teaghlaigh sa Ghaeltacht agus níl aon amhras ach go bhfuil an-leas á dhéanamh ag an scéim chuige sin. Faoi láthair, tá tuairim 4,600 teaghlach ag fáil an deontais i leith tuairim 10,000 páiste ar fad.

Faoi Fho-mhírcheann O den Mheastachán, tugtar cúnamb airgid do choistí áitiúla, faoi scéim a bunaíodh i 1936 chun scoláireachtaí saoire sa Ghaeltacht a thabhairt do pháistí ó áiteanna taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht. Sa bhliain 1957, cuireadh os cionn trí chéad páistí chun na Gaeltachta faoin scéim. I moliana, méadófar an deontas ó £3 10s. go £4 10s. in aghaidh gach scoláireachta, i gcás coistí i gCathair nó i gContae Bhaile Atha Cliath, agus ó £3 go £4, i gcás coistí eile, ar an gcoinníoll—a bhí ann cheana—nach mbeidh an deontas, in aon chás, níos mó ná leath an chostais a bhainfeas leis an scoláireacht.

Tá soláthar faoi Fho-mhírcheann P. do Cúnamh Teicniúil agus mar a chífear ó Fho-mhírcheann R. 6 beido an t-airgead a caithfear ar an gCúnamh Teicniúil seo le fáil ar ais ón gcuntas speisialta den deontas Mheiriceánach. Sé an cúnamh teicniúil atá i gceist ná comhairleoirí bainistíochta d'fhostú chun eagraíocht na dtionscal tuaithe a scrúdú go hiomlán agus chun scéim ath-eagraíochta iomláine a chur le chéile d'thonn riaradh na dtionscal a chóiriú do réir cleachta bainistíochta éifeachtúla nua-aimseartha, agus tá san áireamh ann freisin soláthar do chúrsaí tréineála, sa bhaile agus thar lear, don bhfoirinn teicniúil agus oibrithe nua-thagtha a fostaítear sna Tionscail Tuaithe.

Ar an 14 Meitheamh seo caite shínigh an tAire Gnóthaí Eachtracha agus an tAmbasadóir Meiriceánach Comh-Aontú leis na Stáit Aontaithe um Chúnamh Teicniúil agus chlúdaigh an Comh-Aontú sin an cúnamh teicniúil seo.

Fé mar a cuireadh in iúl don Dáil aimsir na Meastachán anuraidh tá airgead eile ar fáil don Roinn seachas an t-airgead a luaitear go sonrach i meastachán na Roinne, is é sin an t-airgead a cuireadh ar fáil as Cionroinnt na Gaeltachta den Chiste Forbartha Náisiúnta. Fé mar adúradh anuraidh cuireadh suim £30,000 i leataoibh as an gCiste sin le go bhféadfaí deontaisí 25% den chostas measta a thairiscint do na húdaráis áitiúla i leith scéimcanna uisce-sholáthair agus séarachais sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Táthar tar éis an t-airgead sin uile a dháileadh na Gaeltachta. Maidir le scéim na mbád iascaigh ar cuireadh airgead ar fáil di freisin as an gCiste céanna, táthar tar éis cúig dáid mhóra, ar £12,000 an ceann tuairim, a chur ar fáil faoin scéim. Ina theannta sin, tá tosnaithe anois ar scéim chun báid bheaga inneall-chumhachta—ó naoi dtroigh déag go dtí sé troigh ar fhichid —a chur ar fáil agus tá suim £10,000 curtha i leataoibh chun na críche sin. Tá socrú ginearálta déanta cheana fein chun ocht gcinn de na báid sin a chur ar fáil ar chostas £3,500,tuairim, agus tá ceithre cinn de na dáid sin á dtógáil i láthair na huaire.

Tuigfear ón méid atá ráite agam go dtí seo, sílim, go bhfuil bonn leaghta anois ar a bhféadfar obair na Roinne a bhunú as seo amach. Chífear go bhfuil socruithe déanta cheana féin trínar féidir don Roinn cúnaimh airgid a chur ar fáil do thrí cinn de na heagrais is tábhachtaí ó thaobh fostaíochta sa Ghaeltacht, is é sin, na comhairlí contae, Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí agus Oifig na Scéimeanna Fostaíochta Speisialta. De dhroim na socruithe sin, féadfar an caighdéan maireachtála d'árdú, do réir a chéile, trí Íheabhas a churar mhion-bhóithre contae, bóithre áise, saoráidí uisce-sholáthair agus séarachais, muir-oibreacha agus taitneamhachtaí i gcoitinne. Tá buíochas ag dul do na hudaráis áitiúla, do na hOifigí Stáit atá luaite agam agus don Roinn Rialtais Aitiúil as ucht na cabhrach a Íuarthas go fial uathu ag ullmhú scéimeanna fiúntacha don Ghaeltacht. Ba mhaith lion, chomh maith, buíochas a ghabháil leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta agus leis na coistí contae talmhaíochta agus leis na gCoimisiún Muc agus Bbágún as ucht na cabhrach a fuarthas uathu san freisin, go háirithe i ndáil le Scéim na Muc. Is mór agam, treisin, an comhoibriú atá áfháil ag ionadaithe áitiúla na Roinne ar fud na Gaeltachta. Bhéarfaidh na hIonadaithe sin gach cúnamh do na heagrais áitiúla chun moltaí fiúntacha d'ullmhú agus dúanfar gach iarracht sa Roinn chun moltaí den tsórt sin a bhreithniún go báigiúil chomh fada agus is acmhainn don Roinn é.

Pádraig Mac Loingsigh

Is gairid an scéal seo. Níl mórán sa Meastachán ar fíu trácht air. Níl aon rud nua ann ach amháin an méid atá curtha síos faoi uimhir a seacht, leathanach a 4. Is rud nua é sin. Molaim an méid sin ach ní féidir liom dul níos faide. Thuigeamar —thuig mise, ar chuma ar bith, agus thuig go leor daoine eile—go raibh rudaí móra ag teacht, ag éisteacht linn le oráid an Taoisigh i Roscomáin le linn an olltoghcháin. Bhí sé i m'áit féin an oíche roimhe sin ach is beag baol go ndéarfadh sé na rudaí céanna sa cheantar sin a dúirt sé le haghaidh Roscomáin.

Tá Aire nua againn anois agus conas atá an scéal? An bhfuil sé comh maith agus a cheapamar ó oráid an Taoisigh i Roscomáin? An bhfuil aon rud mór á dhéanamh? Tada—díreach mar atá an scéal 'sa Roinn Tailte agus eile. Níl aon rud nua i Scéim na Muc ach amháin an abairt íontach atá ar an bhfoirm iarratais "Slán folláin, aon chráin amháin." An bhfuil an Ghaeltacht slán folláin? Níl. An bhfuil Roinn na Gaeltachta Slán folláin? Níl.

Conas atá ceist na Gaeilge i Roinn na Gaeltachta? Tá scéal greannmhar ag dul thart i gcuid den Ghaeltacht ar thug an tAire cuairt uirthi. Tar éis do na leanaí bheith ag éisteacht leis an Aire ag caint ina dteanga dhúchais thosnaigh siad ag imirt cluiche áirithe a bhíos á imirt acu anois i gelós na scoile, cluiche mar "Ring a Ring a Rosy," mar adéarfá. Canann cuid acu:

An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?

An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?

An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?

agus canann cuid eile acu ar ais:

Níl, Níl, Níl, móráin.

Maidir le ceist na Gaeilge, an bhfuil aon fhírinne sa scéal a bhí sa Sunday Review ar an 20 lá d'Aibreán seo caite?

Pádraig Mac Loingsigh

An raibh aon thírinne sa scéal sin am ar bith? An bhfuil an tAire ag rá "Níl" anois?

Pádraig Mac Loingsigh

B'fhéidir nach bhfaca cuid de na Teachtaí an giota nuaíochta seo sa Sunday Review ar an 20ú lá d'Aibreán seo caite agus, mar sin, le cead an Chinn Chomhairle léifidh mé an píosa sin do'n Teach anois:

Ban on Irish

"Top officials in the Gaeltacht Department in Earlsfort Terrace, Dublin, are faced with a big problem. Most of the junior officers, including typists, young clerks and messengers, have refused to speak Irish.

Even though they work in a Department that does all its work through Irish, there is no way of forcing them to use the language.

The trouble started when a high official of the Department got himself a new secretary who has no knowledge of Irish.

The juniors claim that her pay is much higher than that earned by them, and that it is unfair to expect them to use a language which they speak with difficulty, when she is allowed to use English only.

Threats have been made by Gaeltacht Department bosses but so far no disciplinary measures have been taken.

Said one official ‘I cannot condone this protest publicly but I sympathise with the juniors. They are certainly not being given a good example'."

An bhfuil aon fhírinne sa scéal sin? Cé hé an duine a thóg isteach an Béarlóir in ionad Gaeilgeora sa phost sin? An Stát-sheirbhíseach é, nó an é an tAire féin é. Ba mhaith liomsa é sin a fháil amach agus ba mhaith leis an Teach seo agus leis an tír go léir an t-eolas sin a fnáil amach. Tá dualga ar an Aire a insint don Teach seo cé thóg isteach an duine seo, cé hé, nó cé hí, an duine a tógadh isteach agus, ina theanta sin, tá dualgas air a insint dúinn an raibh sé, nó sí, ag obair roimhe sin. An bhfuil sé, nó sí, ina rúnaí pearsanta? Cad é an saghas oibre a bhíonn ar siúil aige nó aici? An féidir leis nó leí obair rúnaí phríobháidigh a dhéanamh? Cad na thaobh go raibh sé riachtanach rúnaí pearsanta a bheith ag an Aire nuair a bhí rúnaí príobháideach agus clóscríbhneoir príobháideach aige cheana féin—agus sin sa Roinn is lua dá raibh riamh sa Stát?

Tuigim ó chaint an Aire go bhfuil laghdú £28,000 ar an méid atá le caitheamh ar Oifig na Gaeltachta. Ní hé sin an taon drochscéal amháin, agus ní aontaím leis an méid a dúirt an tAire le linn a chuid óráide. Is náire é agus is mór an náire é. Tá fhios ag gach aon duine a bhfuil eolas aige ar an nGaeltacht go bhfuil na mílte rudaí le déanamh ann. Tá mórán daoine ag tógáil tithe go fóill inti, ach mar sin féin tá laghdú de £28,000 sa Meastachán seo.

Bórd atá i nGaeltarra Éireann anois. Níraibh focal le rá ag an Aire mar gheall ar an mbórd seo. Cén saghas bóird é? Cén saghas daoine atá ar an mbórd sin? Cad na thaobh gur toghadh iad, sa chéad dul síos? Cé tá i gceannas ar an mBórd? An fear éifeachtach é? Níl fhios agam, níl fhios ag an Teach, agus níl fhios ag muintir na tíre. Cad na thaobh?

Ag labhairt dom anois ar nithe a bhaineas le Gaeltarra Éireann, is gá dhom leanúint i mBéarla ós rud é nach dtuigeann go leor daoine an méid atá á dhéanamh sa Roinn seo.

Lean leis i nGaeilge. Tá tú ag dul ar aghaidh go maith.

Pádraigh Mac Loingsigh

Ná bac leis sin. Inseodh mise an scéal anois. Beidh ar an Rúnaí Parlaiminte a bhéal a choimeád dúnta anois.

Tá tú ag dul ar aghaidh go han-mhaith. Lean leis i nGaeilge.

I now resume in English, because I have things to tell this country in which, in spite of the impression people try to give by sniggering and sneering, in spite of the hypocritical efforts to prove otherwise, there are still people who would not understand Irish and to whom the intermation could not be conveyed through the medium of Irish.

I want to know from the Minister what this board is like. Who are the personnel? What are their special qualifications, political and geographical, not to mention their business qualifications? I want to know what sort of direction has been given to them by the Minister and his officials and in what manner they are expected to tackle this job. I want to know also how far the affairs of Gaeltarra Eireann have been cleaned up before anybody was asked to take it over.

I appreciate that there is a matter in relation to Gaeltarra Eireann which is being investigated by the police. I had better make a clear what that matter is. It relates simply and solely to charges made by me in this House in February last in relation to fraud in wool sales by description and by weights. All consideration of that matter and all reference to it I shall leave in abeyance, the matter being not sub judice, but the subject matter of police investigation. I shall accordingly leave it, lest it might be prejudiced in any way by what I might say.

I want to warn the Minister and the House that this is an investigation which can have only one result—a successful conclusion in the eradication of fraud. When I examine matters that have taken place in the last few months, I want to warn the public what they are likely to expect from a Government—directed investigation and a Government—directed inquiry. It will be recalled that, in the course of my allegations last June on this Estimate and in the course of subsequent allegations, similar and new, repeated by me here, the Minister for Education, when acting Minister for the Gaeltacht, said he had investigated fully and found there was nothing wrong. The present Minister, leaping to the defence and following in the footsteps of his predecessor, declared— and it was a banner headline in a daily paper—"There are no scandals in the Department of the Gaeltacht."

I understood the Deputy to say he did not wish to continue this discussion, which was before the Dáil some weeks ago.

Only in relation to charges concerned with the sales of wool. I respectfully submit that everything else is open, except the matter being investigated by the police at present.

I do not want to interrupt Deputy Lindsay, but every and any charge made by the Deputy in this House was given to the Garda authorities. The matter is now under investigation. I think it would be very wrong, from the point of view of public interest, that we should have a rehash of them here now.

That beats Banagher.

Might I point out to the Deputy that the motion, still on the Order Paper, relates to "the management and conduct generally of the affairs of the Gaeltarra Eireann Section of the Department of the Gaeltacht, with particular reference to the production and marketing of Gaeltarra Eireann goods over the past five years"?

I quite agree, but the Minister asked that this motion be adjourned in order that charges of a criminal nature made by me be investigated. I made a charge against an agent who put linen into Gaeltarra Eireann of a type and quality never used by Gaeltarra Eireann, got a credit note for tweed but had to take it back. That is fraud. That is not being investigated. So that every charge made by me is not being investigated by the police.

Every charge of fraud made by the Deputy is being investigated.

That is fraud and it is not being investigated.

In view of the Minister's statement that all charges are now the subject of investigation, I feel it would not be proper for the Deputy to pursue the matter any further.

Well, I can pursue a matter that was investigated and is finished. I want the House and the country to listen to this tale. Over the period of the last year, during the Minister's term, a gentleman in the public service, in the Department for which the Minister is responsible and in the Gaeltarra Eireann section of it, took the nearest cut. He did not bother converting tweed or knitwear, by percentage or otherwise, into money. He took the money. He was suspended, very properly, by his superior officers. He confessed to the police to having embezzled a sum approaching £300. He was brought before the District Court in this city by summons on ten counts. That happened in December last.

The matter was adjourned—very properly, in my view—in order to give him an opportunity of paying back the money. In fairness to him, it must be placed on record that he did pay back every penny of it. He lost his job. In my view, that was sufficient punishment. The matter was in the hands of the police and in January, when the whole case had to be dealt with by the district justice either summarily or that he be returned for trial, we had the extraordinary spectacle of police officers standing mute in the District Court in this city and, by the direction of somebody, tendering no evidence. The order on the books is: "No evidence; dismissed."

Why was that done? I should venture one explanation. Here you have evidence which includes a confession from the culprit. I would be satisfied if this case were dealt with properly in due process of law and, having been so dealt with, if the justice thought fit —and I would also agree with it if he thought fit—to apply the Probation Act, then the case would be dealt with after evidence duly sworn and taken. But, no evidence—dismissed. That was in January, 1958.

Deputy O'Donnell and I had a motion on the Order Paper of this House asking for an inquiry into the affairs of Gaeltarra Eireann. We were resisted right down along the line. We were resisted even to the point that the Minister spoke to it on the last occasion this motion was before the House alleging that there was nothing wrong, thinking, naïvely, that it would never come to the light of day that something very wrong had not alone been suppressed in the courts, but that no evidence was tendered on behalf of the State.

I know nothing about this matter. I am not responsible for it. If there is anything in the Deputy's allegations, it is a matter for the Department of Justice, not for my Department.

The Minister is responsible for the proper termination of a charge against an official in his Department.

I am not responsible for court procedure.

The Minister for Justice, who is responsible for the case being brought to its final conclusion, the Attorney-General who directed the prosecution, in the first instance, and then suffered this miserable state of affairs—no evidence; case dismissed— all have a case to answer to the people of this country. They have a case to answer to the vast majority, the great majority, the almost 100 per cent. majority of our civil servants who are doing their work in an excellent manner. That was suppressed and that course was taken in order to prevent the public from having, on the one hand, information in relation to anything being wrong in the Department and to prevent the publication of any such thing buttressing the case Deputy O'Donnell and I were making and, it will now be conceded, are making with some force and with no small degree of truth.

I propose in relation to this matter to write a letter to the Taoiseach, who is the nominal head of all Departments, asking him whether the Attorney-General took this course in consultation with the Minister for the Gaeltacht or the Minister for Justice, or whether it was a Government direction that the thing should be let lie so as to give no support to the rumours abroad and the charge made here that all was not well in the Department of the Gaeltacht.

When the Minister is replying, I think the House and the country should be informed as to why that course was taken and, if the Minister is as ignorant as he says he is of the details of this case, I will give him the name of the person and the amount.

I know both the name and the amount.

He can find it on the record of the District Court. Thanks be to God, there are some records that are available to members of the public who wish to inspect them and that are not faked.

"There is nothing wrong in the Department of the Gaeltacht," said the Minister on various occasions. "There is not a scintilla of evidence or scintilla of truth in the allegations Deputy Lindsay is making," said Mr. Lynch, the Minister for Education, on a former occasion. "These are wild and baseless allegations." Fortunately—fortunately for me and for my political reputation and for the belief which I hold in the integrity of public men and the necessity for it—the Public Accounts Committee came to my assistance, and the Public Accounts Committee, as everybody knows, is an all-Party Committee. The Report of the Committee of Public Accounts for 1955-56, page xiii, under the heading Gaeltacht Services, paragraph 23, says:—

"The Committee had under consideration the question of the safe custody and accounting for stocks of finished goods, including tweed and knitwear, at the Dublin depot of the Gaeltacht industries. The Committee was informed that the value of finished goods held at the various centres had increased from £14,000 in 1940 to £213,000 in 1956; that book records of the stocks of knitwear had been kept until 1956, when they were allowed to lapse; and that no store accounts were kept for tweed. In the absence of proper store accounts for tweed it was not possible to measure the accuracy of the stocks as ascertained at stocktaking. The evidence indicated that when an attempt was made to assess what tweed should be in store at 31st March, 1956—by aggregating receipt vouchers and issue vouchers—a surplus of 30,000 yards emerged. Questioned regarding this discrepancy, the Accounting Officer advanced the view that the stocktaking must have been incorrect, as the 1957 stocktaking on the same basis revealed a surplus of only 8,000 yards. The Committee feels that little reliance can be placed on these figures. In its view, while the discrepancies might have been due to faulty stocktaking, they might equally be attributable to other causes.

"The Committee fails to understand how a business of this magnitude could be efficiently carried on without proper records of the movement of stocks. It feels compelled to record grave dissatisfaction with the methods of control as being entirely inadequate for the proper safeguarding of stores. It has been informed that a system of store accounting was installed in October, 1957, and it desires to be informed regarding the efficiency of its operation,"

"There is nothing wrong in the Department of the Gaeltacht," says the Minister. Does the Minister challenge, even at this stage, the Report of the Committee of Public Accounts?

I do, because it has been discovered now that there was wrong stocktaking.

Does the Minister dispute the Report of the Committee of Public Accounts when they say:

"In its view while the discrepancies might have been due to faulty stocktaking, they might equally be attributable to other causes"?

I am telling the Deputy that it has been now proved that it was due to faulty stocktaking.

And faulty stocktaking only?

And faulty stocktaking only.

Does the Minister realise that consignments of goods were leaving the warehouse at Westland Row without the knowledge of the people who should have that knowledge? Is that faulty stocktaking?

That did not happen in my time.

That has been happenning for 20 years and the Minister—in fairness to him—could take the line in this: "This is not my problem." I am making an attack on a system and the Minister is endeavouring to defend that system as if it were an attack on himself and his Party. It is not.

I am merely pointing out, Sir, in respect of these 30,000 yards referred to in the Report of the Committee of Public Accounts that, on a re-check on the stocktaking on 31st March, 1955, it has been discovered that the figure given then was wrong and that there was no such thing as 30,000 yards in fact missing. That is what I am telling the Deputy.

Nobody ever suggested that 30,000 yards were missing.

Well, 20,000.

The suggestion is that there are 22,000 yards of tweed missing, and in the absence of an authoritative statement and evidence brought before the Committee of Public Accounts, as far as I am concerned and as far as the country is concerned, I still say there are 22,000 yards of tweed missing for that year.

Let us now take the Appropriation Accounts for 1956-57. In spite of the discovery that everything is all well now, according to the Minister, listen to what the Comptroller and Auditor-General has to say on page 17 of the Report under the heading Vote 49:—

"An examination of records of knitwear yarn held in Dublin disclosed that stock was taken at intervals and the records adjusted by the storekeeper to agree with the physical stock. No evidence was available that discrepancies were investigated and they were not included in the list of discrepancies revealed at the independent annual stocktaking. I have communicated with the Accounting Officer on this matter, and also regarding defective control over these stocks which are held at three separate stores."

Does the Minister dispute the truth of the comment of the Comptroller and Auditor-General in the Appropriation Accounts 1956-57?

I do not. The whole system has been changed.

I am not talking about the system that has been changed. I am talking about the system that was in operation before it became necessary to change it, before it became a public scandal, which it now is, a scandal of such magnitude that I regret the Minister sees his way to defend it on all occasions before this House.

When the Report of the Public Accounts Committee was made known, that the results were, according to them, attributable to other causes, I shall not put a tooth on what those causes were. They were larceny, fraud and conversion of some sort. Those are the only other causes because, when goods leave without permission and in accordance with the regular system of a business house, the cause can be only one kind of cause.

I wish to place on record to this House a tribute to one provincial paper that took this matter up. I mean the Kerryman of the 28th April, 1958. In a column entitled “Comment” it stated:

"‘There are no scandals in Gaeltacht Department,' ran a daring headline in an Irish newspaper last November when the fusillade between Messrs. Lindsay and Lynch, with Mr. Moran holding a watching brief, was at its height.

Mr. Moran, of course, was leaping to the defence of his Department in the approved tradition of not letting the side down.

Unhappily, time has not vindicated his assertion. The Report of the Committee of Public Accounts has a sad tale to unfold about the Gaeltacht Services and the very perfunctory way their records of stock have been kept.

In 1956, book records of stocks of knitwear were allowed to lapse. No store accounts were kept for tweed; an attempt was made to assess the tweeds in March, 1956, by aggregating receipts and vouchers—and some genius came up with a surplus of 30,000 yards. The same genius could not have been in operation in March, 1957, as using the same method of checking stocks, only a surplus of 8,000 yards could be found this time.

‘Little reliance,' says the report heavily (and no wonder), ‘can be placed on these figures.' It also added a thought that a great many people must be thinking: ‘That it failed to understand how a business of this magnitude could be efficiently carried on without proper records of movements of stocks.' The Committee records ‘grave dissatisfaction' with the methods of control.

There are a great many things the average person does not understand about the Gaeltacht activities. Why do they issue no statement of accounts? They are in the position of a public profit-making organisation. Even if they regard themselves as a charitable organisation, they must know it is customary for all reputable charitable organisations to issue public accounts. Their system of selling also has come under fire; they pay low wages to the workers, have no selling set-up themselves, and hand over the work of selling to agents who draw extraordinary commissions.

But one would hardly have suspected that a Government offshoot would be so notoriously lacking in the elementals of accounting for stock. In a bureaucratic world where everything is tied and knotted with red tape, we find a Gaeltacht Department counting their stock like the old Rochroe farmer counting his sheep, ‘Well, you're there, and you're there...and you're all there.'

The new Gaeltacht Board should remember the cardinal principle— business is business. The Gaeltacht industries are business; they should be efficiently managed as a business and not as a means to giving charity to Gaeltacht workers; they should make a profit; and all their trading activities should be clearly shown in a balance sheet and a profit and loss account.

It is a disgrace that the Government, who insist on these conditions for ordinary public companies, should be able to ignore them when it sets up in business itself. The taxpayer is a shareholder in Government business; what's the objection to treating him as one?"

One could go on. One could pursue this litany but is there any point? Is there any point in trying to pursue the honest course, to pursue the path of integrity in public life, when one is thwarted and impeded as I have been in this House ever since I introduced this matter to it? Even this evening you had the spectacle of two Parliamentary Secretaries trying to cover up fraud by an effort to sort of ridicule my continuing, or by making my case in English.

It is not in order to assert that Parliamentary Secretaries are endeavouring to cover up a fraud.

If there is any other less innocuous phrase I am willing to use it. Is there any point in trying to keep the standard of public life as high as we all, I am sure, agree in our hearts it should be, when we are thwarted and impeded in the manner in which I have been impeded in relation to this matter?

In view of what the Comptroller and Auditor-General has to say in the Appropriation Accounts, of what the Committee of Public Accounts have to say in their report, in view of my disclosure this evening about the queer and curious ending to a straight case, it is small wonder that there is so much contempt for politicians and public men throughout this country. Will somebody in the Fianna Fáil Party try to impress on the Minister for the Gaeltacht that it is not his function to defend this kind of thing, to make excuses for it, and try to persuade him further that his real function in the Department of the Gaeltacht, as indeed it is the function of any Minister in any Department, is to be a representative of the public and a protector of the public interest? The Kerryman said on 28th April, 1958, that “time unhappily, was not on the side of Mr. Moran”. I confidently assert here this evening that, in spite of any efforts to the contrary, however long they may be pursued and with what methods they may be pursued, time will be on the side of right. Time will be on the side of truth and, when right and truth shall have prevailed, maybe conscience might smite the Minister for the Gaeltacht, the Minister for Education and the Minister for Justice, and they might then have the grace, after all their thwarting, all their denials, all the impeding of the machinery of justice, to approach the Taoiseach and tender their resignations.

Seán Mac Eochagáin

Nuair a bhí mé ag caint ar an Meastachán seo anuraidh, dúirt mé gur cheap mé go raíbh sé ceart Bord a chur ar bun ar son na Fíor-Ghaeltachta ach ní hé an sórt Boird a bhí í gceist agamsa a cuireadh ar bun. Sé mo thuairim féin gurab é rud is fearr don tír, don teanga agus do mhuintir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta Bord Speisialta don Ghaeltacht a bheith ann.

Dúirt mé freisin go rabhamar ag iarraidh an teanga a choinneáil beo sa tír; an Ghaeltacht a chaomhnadh agus na daoine a choimeád sa Ghaeltacht. Ach, faraoir, tá go leor daoine ag imeacht as an Ghaeltacht. Ní mór dúinn ceist a chur orainn féin istigh anso agus taobh amuigh den Teach cén fáth a bhruil an scéal amhlaidh.

Tá mé ag ceapadh gur ceart don Aire féachaint le scéimeanna, ar nós scéim na dtithe gloine, a chur ar bun sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Ba cheart dó scéim mhór eile ar nós scéim na dtithe gloine a chur ar siúl sa bhFíorGhaeltacht.

Tá tithe gloine im cheantar féin agus táid ag déanamh go maith. Tá na daoine ag déanamh airgid as na tithe seo. Tá scéimeanna uisce curtha ar bun agus tá na scéimeanna sin ag déanamh go maith freisin.

Níor mhiste don Aire monarchana beaga a chur ar bun sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht i dtreo is go mbeadh obair le fáil ag daoine óga na Gaeltachta a choiméadfadh sa mbaile iad. B'fhearr le muintir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta fanacht sa mbaile ná imeacht thar sáile.

Bhí mé ag éisteacht leis an Teachta Mac Loingsigh ag caint trasna an Tí. Bhí sé ag cur a lán ceisteanna ar an Aire. Tá mé ag ceapadh nach raibh na ceisteanna sin ceart. Bhí an Teachta Mac Loingsigh tráth san Oifig seo agus cad a tharla nuair a bhí sé bliain ann?

Cén fáth nár fhéach seisean isteach sna ceisteanna úd ar labhair sé orthu nuair a bhí sé féin san Oifig sin? Níor chaith sé aon duine amach as an Oifig sin go dtí an lá deireanach, gur imigh sé féin amach as. D'fhag sé an gnó go dtí an lá deireanach a raibh sé fein ag imeacht as an Oifig. Tá mé ag ceapadh nach raibh sin ceart.

Connachtach is ea an tAire. Is fear maith é. Tuigeann sé a ghnó agus tuigeann sé cad tá ag teastáil ó na daoine i gContae Mhuigheo thiar agus thuaidh, i gContae Chiarraí, Thír Chonaill agus Ghaillimh Thiar. Tá mé bródúil as. Má fhaghann sé an seans tá mé cinnte go gcuirfidh sé rudaí ar bun a raghaidh chun leas mhuintir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta, Rinne sé go rí-mhaith ó chuaigh sé isteach san oifig.

Before I deal with this Estimate, I should like to refer briefly to the case mentioned by Deputy Lindsay and, in doing so, I would ask the Minister if he would be man enough to admit that the reason this case was dropped was that this man paid very large sums of money into the Fianna Fáil election fund in the West of Ireland.

Nach bhfuil aon Ghaeilge agat?

B'fhéidir go bhfuil níos mó Gaeilge agam ná mar atá agatsa.

Má tá Gaeilge agat, labhair í.

You may try to put up a smokescreen to hide this whole matter, but that will not shut me up. I met your type before—at the crossroads and elsewhere.

Má tá Gaeilge agat, labhair í.

I am aware, if the Minister is not prepared to admit it, that that is the case and that is why this case was dropped. Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile.

In the Railway Hotel.

An raibh tú ann riamh?

Ní raibh mé ann.

Is áit dheas é freisin. We have here an Estimate asking up to £250,000—an increase on last year of £50,000. This Department was set up for the building up of the economy of the Gaeltacht, the preservation of the Irish language and the stemming of emigration. I should like to know how much of this money will ever reach the Gaeltacht; and how much of it will ever leave Dublin. The need for stopping emigration is in the Gaeltacht. It is not by hand-outs or doles it will be done but by something definite.

Does the Minister think that by handing out a few lorry loads of sows around the country and calling it "Scéim na Muc," he will save the Gaeltacht? The Irish language can only be preserved by preserving the Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht. Girls come into Galway City, which I represent, merely in order to obtain a working knowledge of the English language for the purpose of fitting themselves out for England, the United States and other places. If we had less lip-service about the Irish language and more action, we might have more results. This Vote will not stop one emigrant from leaving although it is expected to cost £250,000. I would suggest that the Minister should hand the whole thing over to Gael Linn. They are making a fine effort at present and they are to be complimented. They have stolen a march on the Department for the Gaeltacht and have shown what can be done. I hope they will get the full co-operation of the Department.

This Vote, as far as I can see, is only a bit off this Department and a bit off that Department in order to create a Ministry. There is nothing new to add. Even Scéim na Muc is in the Department of Agriculture under a different name. "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." While I admit this Department is a new one and that by trial and error it may arrive at something, it will have to do something very quickly to justify its existence. Let us hope that, through the action of the Department, we will see less emigration and that moneys will be more wisely spent than they have been spent in the past.

Ba mhaith liom cómhgáirdeachas a dhéanamh leis an Aire nua i ngeall ar an obair a rinne sé i gcaiteamh na bliana seo caite ar son na Gaeltachta. Thaispeáin sé go gcuireann sé suim thar an gcoitceann in imeachtaí na Gaeltachta agus ins na daoine atá ina gcónaí annsin. Molaim an Bord a chuir sé ar bun agus molaim na daoine a cheap sé don bhord sin. Thogh sé go cúramach iad agus is dóigh liom go gcruthócha siad go raibh an cheart ag an Aire nuair a chuir sé an bhord sin ar bun agus go mbeidh toradh dá réir as a cuid oibre.

Sa ráiteas a thug an tAire uaidh nuair a thug sé an Meastachán isteach, chuir sé síos ar a lán scéimeanna atá beartuithe aige. Tuigim go rí-mhaith go mbrathann cuid mhór de na scéimeanna sin ar na húdaráis áitiúla, na comhairlí conndae. Maidir leis an gcéad scéim, bronnann sé sin deontaisí ar na húdaráis le bóithre a dhéanamh. Ní dóigh liom go dtuigeann na húdaráis áitiúla maitheas na scéimeanna sin agus ba cheart don Aire litir a chur amach chuig na comhairlí conndae ag míniú dóibh cé na cumhachtaí atá acab leis na scéimeanna sin a chur chun cinn ar mhaitheas leis an nGaeltacht. Bóithre beaga atá luaite, sé sin, "minor roads" agus ní go ró mhaith a thuigim céard tá i gceist murab iad bóithre nach mbaincann scéim ar bith cile leo. Sa leagan Béarla, séard tá curtha síos dóibh "accomodation roads."

Tá scéim eile ann cun uisce do sholáthar agus tá sé sin an-thábhachtach ar fad. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil na deontaisí fán scéim sin sáthach árd agus mholfainn go gcuirfí ar a laghad leath den chostas ar fáil in ionad an ceathrú cuid. Tá oibreacha mara luaite comh maith. Sin ceist a gcuireann comhairle Chonndae na Gaillimhe suim mhór inti, ach aon uair a theastuigh uainn dul ar aghaidh le scéim den tsórt sin ní raibh an tairgead ar fáil. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sé ar fáil anois fán scéim seo.

Molaim go hárd scéim 4 atá luaite annseo fá'n a mbeidh sé ar cumas an Aire agus na Roinne deontaisí a chur ar fáil le pinniúr agus páirceanna imeartha a chur ar fáil do mhuinntir na Gaeltachta. Maidir leis na páirceanna imeartha, sé an deachracht atá ansin teacht ar áit mhion réidh chuige sin sa nGaeltacht, ach maidir leis na pinniúr agus a léithéidí tá géar-ghá leob i gConnamara go háithrid.

Ní bhacfaidh mé le scéim na muc. Tuigeann muintir na Gaeltachta buntáistí na scéime sin agus is cuma cén droch-mheas a chaitheas an dream thall air. Scéim isea í go bhfuil meas ag muintir na Gaeltachta uirthi agus scéim a rachas chun cinn i gConnamara go háithrid.

I dtaobh na scéimeanna a luaitear fá uimhir a 6, sé sin, tithe trátaí nó na tithe gloinne, is mór an trua nach féidir leis an Roinn dul ar aghaidh níos tapúla len a dtógáil. Thug Fianna Fáil an scéim sin isteach don chéad uair agus dá bhféadfaidís dul ar aghaidh níos tapúla leo agus a dhá oiread den na tithe sin a thógáil, is amhlaidh is mó a bheadh meas ar an scéim i gConnamara.

Maidir le hUimhir a seacht, ba mhaith liom dá míníodh an tAire dúinn céard tá i gceist aige ansin agus cén chaoi a gcabhródh sé leis an gcóras meán-oideachais a chur chun cinn. An geabhródh sé leis na clochair agus leis na Bráithre? An bhfuil sé ar intinn ag an Roinn coláistí agus a léithéidí a chur chun chinn dóibh?

Chuir mé ceist i rith na bliana faoi mheán-scoil nua atá bunaithe sa Spidéal agus ní dóigh liom go raibh sé ar chumas an Aire an uair sin aon deontas a thabhairt dóibh cé go raibh dea-obair dá dhéanamh ag na mná rialta sa Spidéal. Má tá sé in ndon cabhrú leo anois is maith an gar dóibh é agus is mór an gar don Ghaeltacht é. Tá súil againn go ndéanfaidh an tAire pé rud is féidir leis chun slánú na teangan agus slánú na Gaeltacht a bhaint amach.

Bhí mé ag éisteacht anseo inniu leis an Teachta Mac Loingaigh agus bhí mé ag éisteacht leis seachtain ó shin ag caint ar an Suimreamh. Mothaím rud amháin fá dtaoibh dó—nuair atá droch chás aige, ní sé fobha pearsanta. An lá fé dheire rinne sé fán Teachta Ó Dochartaigh é agus inniu rinne sé fán Aire é. Tá iontaoibh againn anseo as an Aire agus sílim go bhfuil an tAire sásta le sin agus nach mbeidh sé d'aontaoibh leis an Teachta Mac Loingsigh.

Ba mhaith liom dá smaoineodh an tAire ar níos mó a dhéanamh fá chuairteoirí a fháil don Ghaeltacht. Tá baint agam le coláistí Gaeilge agus tig cuid mhór páistí sa bhliain go dtí an chuid seo tíre agus caitear an-chuid airgid ar fad sna tithe agus sna siopaí agus sílim féin go bhfuil sé sin chomh maith le déantús éadtrom ar bith.

I láthair na huaire in áiteacha fán Ghaeltacht, tig cuairteoirí ar laetha saoire. Tá cuid de na háiteacha is áille sa tír ar fáil sa Ghaeltacht. Cuir i gcás i dTír Chonaill tig cuid mhaith cuairteoiríansin agus béarlóirí beagnach ar fad atá iontu. Tá moladh mór ag dul do na daoine atá in a gcónaí ann toisc an Ghaeilge a bheith slán acu go fóill in ainneoin na mBéarlóirí sin a thagann isteach.

An bharúil atá againn ná dá dtiocfadh linn níos mó Ghaeilgeoirí a mhealladh isteach sna ceantracha sin go gcuideodn sé leis na daoine atá ina gcónaí ann. Tá an tír lán de Ghaeilgeoirí i láthair na huaire ach nil a ndóthain ag dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht.

I láthair na huaire tá Treoraí Saoire nó "Tourist Guide" á chur amach ag Comhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge agus tá notaí ansin fá na ceantracha is foirstiní le laetha saoire a chaitheamh. Tá colas bailithe acu fá na tithe a bheadh sásta daoine a ghlacadh. Tá gach eolas acu fá na tithe sin—an méid seomraí atá iontu, an méid seomraí le uisce reatha agus mar sin. Tá léaráidí ann feasta ag teaspáint suíomh na Gaeltachta—ní Gaeltacht ar leith ach na Gaeltachtaí uilig. Tá moladh ag dul don Bhord Fáilte toisc an cuidiú mór atá dá thabhairt acu leis an Treoraí seo a chur amach agus tá sé ar intinn acu 20,000 cóip a scaipeadh ar fud na tíre. Mholtainn don Aire cuidiú a thabhairt don Chomhdháil san obair seo. Ba mhaith liom fosta a iarraidh ar an Aire níos mó a dhéanamh fá dtaoibh de scéimeanna uisce sa Ghaeltacht go mór mhór sna háiteacha ina bhfuil na coláistí Gaeilge.

Téann scaifte mór páistí ansin achan bhliain agus tá siad sin cleachta le rudaí ar leith, le uisce a bheith acu sna tithe sa bhaile. Sé mo bharúil féin nach leanfadh siad ag dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht mura bhfaighe siad an saghas céanna tí ansin agus atá acu sa bhaile. Ar feadh blianta fada bhí daoine sasta dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht ar cuma leo na háiseanna a bhí le fáil; ach anois tá athrú ann. In áiteacha tá go leor uisce reatha le fáil; in áiteacha eile, níl. Dá smaointeoch an tAire air sin, ba mhaith an rud é, mar tá géar-ghá leis in áiteacha.

An raibh tusa sa Ghaeltacht riam?

Bhí mé sa Ghaeltacht go minic, go mion-minic.

I dTir Chonaill. Tá baint agam leis an Ghaeltacht. Nach mbeadh a fhios agat sin? Ba mhaith liom an tAire a mholadh fosta fán dóigh a rinne sé athrú ar scéim Choiste na bPáistí. Bhí géar-ghá le sin. Ní raibh go leor airgead le fáil. Sílim go gcuideodh sé sin go mór leis na ceantracha sa Ghaeltacht.

Fá dtaoibh de scéim an Chúig Púnt, sílim gurb é an Teachta Mac Aogáin, atá anois ina Aire Gnóthaí Eachtracha, a chuir an scéim sin ar bun ar dtús, mar scéim an Dá Phunt. D'ardaíodh go dtí Cúig Punt é. Níl fhios agam an leor sin anois. Tá sé doiligh airgead d'fháil ach b'fhiú don Aire smaoineamh ar sin.

Scéim mhaith eile is ca an scéim fá na Meán-Scoileanna. Cím go bhfuil meánscoil á cur ar bun anois i nGaoth Dobhair agus sílim go gcuideoidh sé leis an cheantar fosta agus leis na daoine sa cheantar.

Fá dtaoibh de na bóithre, in áiteacha níl siad ró-mhaith agus in áiteacha tá siad fíor-mhaith. Chonaic mé sampla de bhóithre fíor-mhaitne agus b'fhiú don Aire dul ar aghaidh chomh gasta agus a thig leis le scéimeanna sin na mbóithre. Cuidíonn sé, ní hé amháin leis na daoine sa cheantar ach leis na cuairteoirí a mhealladh isteach ann.

Domhnall Ó Maoldhomhnaigh

Ba mhaith liom labhairt ar an Vóta seo. Tá brón orm nach bhfuil go leor Gaeilge agam le caint a dhéanamh ar an Mheastachán i nGaeilge. Mar sin caithfidh mé Bearla a labhairt. I represent a constituency in the Gaeltacht, North Kerry, and I am anxious to say a few words on this Vote in connection with the various matters which have been raised here by the Minister to-night and by other Deputies.

First of all, I feel I ought to thank the Minister for having succeeded, after some months of initial work, in bringing some of the schemes of his Department into operation, in so far as our part of the Gaeltacht is concerned. The lot of the people living in the Kerry Gaeltacht is, I am sure, no different from that of those living in Gaeltacht areas in other parts of the country. Nothwithstanding anything said to the contrary, I feel it was a step in the right direction, for the previous Government actually to have set up a separate Gaeltacht Department to deal with the problems of the people in the Gaeltacht areas.

A previous speaker said here that the schemes in general being administered now by the Department of the Gaeltacht were heretofore given to the people under the auspices of other Departments. I cannot entirely agree with that statement. If those schemes were available already, I submit that the various Departments which happened to be administering them failed to get them over to the advantage of the people and certainly failed to get them over to the extent that they have been got over under the separate Department at the moment.

I feel that while the various Departments of State which handled those schemes in the past were, no doubt, anxious to administer them to the benefit of the people of the Gaeltacht, they had not the necessary machinery or the type of organisation suitable for the implementation of such schemes. The Department of the Gaeltacht, a comparatively new Department, can rightly claim to serve this purpose best and it has succeeded, in the short time it has been in existence, in initiating and putting into operation, to the benefit of the people of the Gaeltacht, schemes which are appreciated by the people.

I was glad to find in the Estimate which the Minister introduced to-night that an additional financial provision of £51,000 is being made and I am quite certain that in order to get that extra money the Minister had to make a very strong case to the Government. I must congratulate the Minister, in the first instance, on being able to get that money and on formulating schemes during the short time he has been in office, schemes very much needed in the Gaeltacht areas and which appear very practicable.

In his statement, the Minister mentioned a number of schemes that his Department is now administering on a more or less independent basis. The first scheme dealt with is the scheme for the repair or general improvement of minor county roads in the Gaeltacht. In the past these roads were neglected. I would say that up to 1952, when special grants were made available by the Fianna Fáil Government for the reconstruction of certain important roads, it could be truthfully said that the position of the Gaeltacht roads generally was deplorable. Considerable improvement was made at that time and has been maintained since, but in the allocation of grants by local authorities, it often happened that Gaeltacht areas were not lucky enough to get the allocations that certain other parts of the country outside the Gaeltacht were able to obtain.

Probably a very good case was made for the system of allocation which at that time unfortunately deprived Gaeltacht areas of the grants which other parts of the country got. It may have been due to the fact that population and traffic considerations were more favourable in non-Gaeltacht areas.

I am sure it was in an effort to make good that deficiency that the Minister has re-introduced the 100 per cent. grant for the steamrolling and general reconstruction of county and main roads in Gaeltacht areas. I am glad to see that such work is being carried out under the auspices of the local authorities who are, no doubt, the most competent people to undertake that kind of job. In my constituency some thousands of pounds were spent on schemes of that kind during the past year but I feel that the Minister should try to step up the amount of grants made available for roads, generally, in Gaeltacht areas, particularly for roads that have a tourist importance. I know some very important roads in the Dingle, Corea Duibhne, Gaeltacht which are in a very bad state of repair and generally cannot be used to the advantage of the district because funds have not been available in the past to have them reconstructed or steamrolled. In the allocation of funds this year I hope the Minister will consult, as I am sure his officials always do, with the local authority with a view to bringing those roads into the list for improvement.

I regard the Minister's provision for the repair and improvement of accomodation roads as very important. I am particularly glad that such work will be carried out and administered by the Employment Schemes Office in co-operation, of course, with the Minister's Department. It would be a very unsatisfactory state of affairs if these roads were neglected because, while we might all wish the main road arteries in the Gaeltacht to be in very good condition, we must accept the fact that there are many remote villages in all Gaeltacht areas off the main roads that must have some form of highway to serve the people living in those villages.

It was very thoughtful of the Minister and his Department to make provision for these accomodation roads. Undoubtedly, provision was made for them in the past through the Special Employment Schemes Office but I would submit that very often some of those roads did not seem to qualify because of various circumstances outside the control of the Department of Education or whatever Government Department was then handling Gaeltacht problems. The conditions applicable to the Employment Schemes Grants were somewhat unfavourable to the circumstances governing roads in these areas and it is very satisfactory to know that the Minister's Department will now have applications for grants for these roads dealt with on a more practicable basis.

I hope the Minister's representative in the Gaeltacht areas, the director he has appointed to administer the various schemes, will pay special attention to this problem because there has been—and, I would say, rightly— a good deal of complaint and a great volume of dissatisfaction in past years because of the very few accommodation roads dealt with under the Employment Schemes Grants. I sincerely hope that we have seen the end of that unsatisfactory situation now and that roads of any real importance, even though they are accommodation roads, will get the advantage of any grants that may be going.

The most important scheme yet introduced I think is that for minor water supply and sewerage schemes. In most Gaeltacht areas there is a very good possibility of building up a tourist trade of a kind, but, in the past, conditions, particularly sanitary conditions, apart from roads, militated very much against any possibility that might exist in that direction. The local authorities during those years were examining this question of a water supply. The county medical officers of health, whose job it was to select the most appropriate areas for the schemes in the different counties, no doubt gave due attention to the matter, but it was found in every local authority that the farthest they got was to prepare a list and to have these water supply schemes scheduled in order of priority. Due to lack of funds, and particularly since the recent credit squeeze came along, the schemes never got anywhere.

In our local authority, we had 20 of those schemes listed for many years in the Dingle Gaeltacht and various attempts were made to provide a number of pumps at that time to supply water to some of these villages. We only succeeded in a period of about ten years in supplying three or four pumps to the whole area. We were still left with a list of 20 important and very necessary water supply schemes of which we could not possibly take care.

Some months ago, the Minister made an offer to the local authority and suggested that, if they were prepared to carry through the schemes in accordance with his requirements, his Department would make a grant available to the extent, I think, of 50 per cent. I am very happy to be able to say that the local authority gladly accepted the offer and instructed the county engineer to prepare the necessary plans and specifications for submission to the Minister's Department. No doubt these plans and specifications were examined by the Minister and, with some modifications, were, I understand, readily sanctioned and passed on to the local authority, with a request that the work in question should be undertaken and carried through as quickly as possible.

The local authority—Kerry County Council—was very glad to make provision in its rates estimate for the current year to provide the necessary local contribution to enable these schemes to be carried out and I am very happy to say that work on most of the schemes has now commenced. I think the Minister did specify to the county engineer that he would expect that, as far as possible, the water schemes should be worked on a gravitation basis. That was very wise on the Minister's part, because experience has shown that the provision of water supplies by pumps is not usually satisfactory. I should like to inform the Minister now that the people of the Gaeltacht in my constituency are very satisfied with the steps the Minister proposes to take. All they ask is that the schemes be carried through with the least possible delay, so that the water they have been waiting for for generations will be available to them in adequate supplies and in satisfactory condition in the future.

The Minister referred in the course of his speech to some experiment or scheme that his Department has in connection with the strawberry industry. I am glad to say that the Minister did offer the advantages of that scheme to Kerry Gaeltacht through the county committee of agriculture and, due to the very close degree of co-operation that has existed between the county committee of agriculture there and the Minister's Department, it has now been made possible to start ten pilot schemes in the county. I understand that the Minister's Department laid down a target of ten plots in each of the two Kerry Gaeltacht areas. In fact, the ten plots in North Kerry and, as far as I know, in South Kerry, for which South Kerry Deputies are more competent to speak than I am, have been achieved.

I think there is now justification to consider this scheme on a more extensive scale and I would suggest to the Minister that he should, at this stage, plan ahead for next year and go all out to have many more; I should say nearer 100 rather than ten of these plots should be established and worked in the area. I believe that the results from the growing of strawberries can be very satisfactory and very remunerative, and I am quite sure, once the people of the Gaeltacht are satisfied on that score, the Minister will have very little difficulty in getting that part of the scheme worked to his satisfaction.

There is one important matter I am anxious to bring to the Minister's notice in connection with rural electrification in the Kerry Gaeltacht. The E.S.B. carried through the necessary canvass with a view to connecting up the Gaeltacht to the rural electrification scheme a couple of years ago, but, due to the poor result of the canvass at that time, the area was not listed in sufficiently high priority to have it connected up. The E.S.B. are being approached in the matter, but they are unable to help very much. The E.S.B. take the attitude that the area cannot, as far as they are concerned, be treated on any priority basis. It has to take its place in the queue with all the other areas. I think that the factors which are militating against the area in this case will not be overcome for many years, unless the Minister comes to the assistance of the matter.

The first difficulty is the flat rate of charges in the scale operated by the E.S.B. It is considered too high, due to the fact that most of the houses in the area are big houses. They have a large floor area, and I am inclined to suggest to the Minister that he might consider devising some scheme whereby he could help either by way of cash contribution or by persuading the E.S.B. to give special exemption for part of the floor space in these houses. Now, with the water and sewerage facilities which the new scheme will bring to the area, it would be a pity if the current could not be supplied into all these areas without undue delay.

All these matters were the subject matter of two conferences in my time.

Yes, but the Deputy did not do anything about it.

I want to know what has been done since.

That is for the Minister to answer. It is not for me. I am trying to find out.

The whitewashing has gone on long enough.

The Deputy, started the whitewashing, but he did not finish it. We have been practical. The Deputy talked about what he was going to do in our area and he did nothing. He never visited the area.

That is wrong; that is untrue. I visited Dingle area.

The Deputy never visited Dingle area whilst he was Minister for the Gaeltacht.

I most certainly did.

These interruptions should cease.

This whitewashing will not get the Deputy anywhere. I have to make another proposal to the Minister. Perhaps this, too, was the subject of a conference in Deputy Lindsay's period. I am referring to the extensions of the existing Gaeltacht area.

All these things were the subject of conferences.

I am speaking only for my own area. The Dingle Gaeltacht, the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and the Gaeltacht proper for the purpose of the Minister's Department, is, in my opinion, far too small. I am not saying it is too small because it contains only a certain area. I cannot understand why, originally, when these areas were defined, only a certain number of electoral divisions in the particular district were treated as Fíor-Gaeltacht and other areas with equally strong claims were not included. I refer to areas such as Brandon which is at the north-eastern side of Mount Brandon, right across the mountain from the Cúis area on the other side, Cloghane and Annascaul.

The people of those areas are mostly Irish speakers—as much, I would say, as they are in the Western area. They are competent to speak through the medium of Irish and they have kept the Irish traditions all down through the years. These people certainly have a grievance nowadays, with the Department of the Gaeltacht functioning so efficiently, that they are not included in the Gaeltacht area. I do not know if it is possible to do so under existing legislation but I assume it is as otherwise I would not be in order in making the point that the Minister might consider including those areas in the Gaeltacht and thus make it more compact and workable.

I am glad the Minister has selected a local director for the Kerry Gaeltacht and that he is resident and available there to give the people any service they require. I should like the Minister to go a little more frequently amongst the people of the Gaeltacht. He cannot be expected to live a week in this part of the Gaeltacht and the next week in some other part of it. He has certain administrative duties to perform in Dublin and he must be in his office quite a lot.

He could get a caravan.

For the past seven or eight months the Minister has been doing a very important job of work in trying to organise his office and to put various schemes into operation. I think there are sufficient schemes at the moment and the people of the Gaeltacht appreciate that they have been put into operation with the minimum of delay. There are, however, many problems which they would like to discuss with the Minister and it would give more satisfaction if he would go among the people collectively and from time to time take the opportunity of discussing their local problems with them.

At the cumainn.

I hope the Minister will find it possible to visit the Dingle Gaeltacht area as soon as possible and get the views of the people at first hand in relation to those schemes already initiated and, secondly, as to any other schemes which they feel should be introduced for the benefit of the area.

On account of the new set up in relation to this Department this year, I should like a statement from the Minister as to how the position will actually operate. I find it difficult for this House to follow the workings of the Department in its various branches. It seems to be much too loosely constructed and to contain too many sections. Apparently the Gaeltacht Commission will deal with tweeds, knitted goods, sprigging and so on. Is that the sole function of that branch of the Department of the Gaeltacht? If that is so, seeing the amount of money turned over by savings in relation to items over which the commission have control, I am curious as to why a Grant-in-Aid of £220,000 is being given to it. Surely the proper thing to do was to have audited accounts which apparently they must have by statute, and which the Minister will place on the Table of the House so that we can see how they stand. It is very dangerous, where a board is handling some £300,000 worth of goods each year, to hand over to them a Grant-in-Aid of £220,000. It is dangerous to have so much wealth knocking about. The people concerned might get quite loose about it.

They have been very loose.

I do not know if the Minister was then a member of the House but the late Deputy Dockrell in his own way and with his extensive business knowledge took an interest in this Vote and used to speak on it each year. He always asked for a detailed audited account for presentation to this House so that we should know how the work was being carried out and whether or not any profits were being made. The answer always was: "This is not a profit-making institution." That is a very bad thing.

It is a social service.

It is a very bad principle in any line of business that "there you are, off you go and it does not matter about profits or losses, and so forth." It is very dangerous and a bad system. For that reason, I should like the Minister to tell the House why a Grant-in-Aid of £220,000 was being given to a board that was handling roughly some £200,000 or £300,000 annually. It is an unfortunate thing. I hope it works out well. I am very doubtful about it.

When this commission was set up, my idea about it was that it would be in the form of the old Congested Districts Board and that it would embrace all the activities of those areas. Now it is subdivided into various sections. Aranmara, Teoranta, apparently, will deal with sea rods and carrageen. Why was that not handed over to the commission? Is it that the men in the commission were not suitably qualified in respect of this particular work? Was it not one of the related things and should it not have been handed over them? Why was a separate board set up to deal with that work? Apparently it has entered into contracts with somebody else to send these rods to the Continent. The carrageen, also, is to be dealt with by them.

I am saying all I have to say on this Vote in a perfectly friendy spirit to the Minister. I am deeply concerned about the matter. Then we have the pickles, strawberries and onion seeds. It is not stated who will deal with them but apparently the Gaeltacht Commission will not deal with them. Why all this segregation into water-tight compartments and then again trying to get them as a unified whole and get control of it? It seems to me a ridiculous set-up without any good business, top, bottom or middle, in it. I have read the report of the Public Accounts Committee in relation to the Appropriation Accounts. One can well understand how certain things can happen. I am giving the Minister the benefit of my experience and I hope he will accept my advice. I fear he is in a dangerous position with all these sectional set-ups. Who invented the system, I do not know, but certainly it is beyond my comprehension as an efficient instrument to deal with this problem.

Are all these people to be independent or are they to be part of the set-up of Gaeltarra Éireann? They should be all under the board. Either that, or not at all. I regret to have to say it, but in my opinion this set-up is utterly unworkable and will fail. These areas will not reap the benefit this House intended they should reap when it passed this Act and made financial provision for it. Perhaps it sounds hostile. I am not concerned, about that. All I am concerned with is the efficiency and success of this. What I say may be critical, but it is friendly.

The Minister was highly unfortunate in the advice he got not to take possession of the whole area and put it under one commission. Even if worth-while salaries had to be paid to the members of that commission, it would be money well spent provided the right men were got. Surely they are available? I have long experience now both under the Congested Districts Board and under native Governments. I am disposed to pit civil servants against the new administration, this mixum-gatherum of commissions and companies dealing with these things. Is it not obviously a matter for one body to deal with a particular areas requiring specialised treatment? That was always admitted. Even the British Government, about whom we said so much in this country, had the "savvy" and the skill of organisation to place this whole area under one board. Considering the amount of the money available to it, it did a very good job. There were some distinguished and brilliant men on that commission. Surely this country has not degenerated so far that equally able and brilliant men could not be got to do the job the Minister has divided now into separate enclaves?

We are all worrying about tweeds, crochet and sprigging. We go some place else and look for sea rods and carrageen. Then we go some place else and look for onion seed and strawberries. You will have to get a helicopter to get around all this show. Does the Minister or anyone who knows anything about business organisation, think that this will succeed? I think it will not. We are doing the job, but we are doing it badly although we had the opportunity of doing it well.

I do not know anything about the difficulties that have arisen and that have been referred to here to-night and on other occassions. In my opinion they are inevitable from the nature of the institution and the way it is being dealt with—I should not say "institution" but a whole series of separate institutions. The whole thing is a joke. A full-blown commission, which the public thought would deal with this whole problem in the same way as the Congested Districts Board, will only deal with, the industrial side of it. They will have charge of £200,000 or £300,000. Yet we are making available to them a Grant-in-Aid of £220,000 to keep them in pocket money until they get into funds. Would the Minister put that up to any board of businessmen? He is putting it up to the House and asking Deputies to vote for it. If he put it up to a board of competent businessmen they would jeer at him and tell him to get out, that it was a joke.

I think it is inviting trouble. If the Minister escapes he will be a lucky man. I can tell him that from my long experience. Who will deal with the onion seed and the strawberries? Will you have another board to deal with them? Who will deal with the pigs? Is that not a function of the Department of Agriculture? Why are we so fond of splitting up things in this country? Is the Gaeltacht Department just supposed to deal with industries and with giving work in that area? What are we to do with the pigs and the onion seed? Surely some of these questions are matters for the horticultural side of the Department of Agriculture?

I regret to say it but I do not see any hope for the success of this scheme. Why could this new board not pay the salaries out of its turn-over? We had to give them £220,000 to pay the officers. Of course they will pay it back. But could they not pay it out of their ordinary income from normal sales? I shall be very glad if the Minister comes successfully out of this. I wish him good luck in the task before him. But let him keep his boots laced. Apparently, there has been some "trip-me up" already. Let him watch he does not trip over his head and perhaps break his political neck in the journey.

Ba mhaith liomsa cúpla focail a rá ar an Meastachán seo, Meastachán a bhfuil baint mhór aige leis an nGaeltacht, an ceantar ina bhfuil an teanga beo. Tá muid ag caint ar an nGaeltacht anseo anois le huair go leith agus ní leanfaidh an díospóireacht seo i bhfad. Sílimse dá geuirfeadh an Teach so suim mar is ceart i gceist na Gaeltachta go mbeadh an Dáil ag díospóireacht beagnach go lá ag scagadh ceist na Gaeltachta.

Tá buíochas mór tuilte ag muintir na Gaeltachta as an seasamh atá déanta acu le cúpla céad blian. Choimeád siad an Ghaeilge beo, rud nár dhein na ceantar eile. Má thug ár Rialtais náisiúnta cuidiú fé leith don Ghaeltacht, ba cheart é. Tá an Ghaeltacht ghá bhánú bliain i ndiaidh bliana. Tá an t-aos óg ag imeacht agus muna mbunaítear tionscail maithe in aithghiorracht ní mhairfidh an Ghaeilge i bhfad. I gceann roinnt blian ní bheidh Gaeltacht ar bith ann agus ní bheidh fáth ar bith le "Aire na Gaeltachta meastachán a thabhairt isteach le cuidiú a thabhairt don chuid sin den tír."

Admhaimíd go dtug na Rialtais uile cuidiú don Ghaeltacht ó fuaireamar an chéad Rialtas. Tá, cuid mhór déanta ach féadfar i bhfad níos mó a dhéanamh. Caithfimíd bheith buíoch, agus támaid buíoch faoin méid oibre atá déanta. Chuidigh scéim tithe na Gaeltachta go mór le tithe bréatha slachtmhara a thógáil sa Ghaeltacht in ionad na mbothán a bhí ann le na céadta blian. Tá siad le feiceáil san Ghaeltacht anois, go speisialta i dTír Chonaill. Ní dóigh liom gur bhain ceantar ar bith eile úsáid as an scéim sin oiread agus a rinneadh i dTír Chonaill. Tá na tithe le feiceáil ag na cuairteoirí a théann go dtí an pháirt sin den tír. Cuidigh na tithe go mór le muintir na Gaeltachta agus le scéim na gcuairteóirí agus tá na cuairteóiri ag teacht go Tír Chonaill níos líonmhaire bliain i ndiaidh bliana.

Tá lúthgháir orm a chloisteáil ón Aire go bhfuil sé ag tabhairt deontas fé leith le scéimeanna uisce a chur ar bun, scéimeanna a cuidaíos go mór le saol agus beatha na ndaoine d'fheabhsú, maraon leis an tionscail sin atá ag dul ar aghaidh cho mór—tionscail na gcuairteóirí. Má bhíonn tithe maithe ag na daoine agus scéim uisce ag teacht isteach i gcuid mhaith de na bailtí, beidh daoine i n-ann i bhfad níos mo cuairteóiri a choinneáil.

D'iarrfainn ar an Aire deontas a chur ar fáil leis an scéim a leathnú chun na gcoláistí Gaeilge, go speisialta i dTír Chonaill agus go háirithe i Rann na Feirste and Gaoith Dobhair. Tá sé fíor a rá go bhfuil scéim uisce i Rann na Feirste ach tá an chuid is mó den cheantar gan uisce ar bith go fóill. Tá daoine i gCarraig an Choill, Doire na mBráthar agus Gaoith Dobhair, bailtí a thógas cuid mhór de na daoine na thagann go dtí Coláiste Bhride i Rann na Feirste, agus dá mbeadh scéim uisce ar fáil dóibh thiocfadh leo i bhfad níos mó daoine a choinneáil agus an coláiste a dhéanamh i bhfad níos mó ná mar atá sé.

Tá sár-obair déanta ag an gColáiste sin agus má tá an Roinn ionraic fé cheist na Gaeilge, seo dóigh a dtig leo cuidiu leis an Ghaeilge a spreagadh ar fúd na tíre. Go Coláistí Rann na Feirste agus Gaoith Dobhair tig, go céadta as gach aon pháirt den tír, go speisialta ó na Sé Contáethe. Bliain i ndiaidh bliana tig na páistí, na gasúra agus na girrseacha go Tír Chonaill as na Sé Contaethe íe eolas fháil ar an nGaeilge. Dá mbéadh an spiorad céanna anseo ins na 26 Contaethe ó fuaireamar ár saoirse bheadh Gaeilge i ngach áit inniu. Tá súil agam go dtuigeann na daoine ins na 26 Contaethe an obair atá déanta ag muintir na Sé Contaethe, agus atá á dhéanamh, leis an Ghaeilge d'aithbheochaint.

I bparóiste Ghaoith Dobhair tá aisteoirí a bhfuil cáil mhór tuilte acu. Os rud é go bhfuil an tAire ag tabhairt deontasaí d'amharelanna, ba mhaith liom ceist a chur air an mbeidh an deontas seo a bhí le fáil ag aisteoirí Ghaoith Dobhair le mórán blianta le fáil feasta. Nuair bhí an Rialtas deireannach istigh thug siad geallúntas go bhfaighdis deontas leis an amharclann a thógaint. Ni bhfuair. D'iarrfainn ar an Aire cuidiú a thabhairt do na h-aisteoirí seo atá ag déanamh obair mhór ins na Ghaeltacht. Dá mbeadh amharclann aca bheidis i n-ann an obair sin do mhéadú.

Bhí lúthgháir orainn go léir gur cuireadh Bord Ghaeltarra Eireann ar bun agus bheireann an Bord sin dóchas dúinn go bhfuil an Rialtas ag dul ag déanamh rud éigin a chuideos go mór leis an nGaeltacht ins na blianta atá romhainn. Támuid sásta go bhfuair duine as Tír Chonaill áit ar an mBord sin, fear a bhfuil eolas maith aige ar an gContae, fear atá eolach ar chursaí tionscail a chur ar bun, fear atá eolach ar gach aon tsórt a bhéarfadh cuidiú do mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Tá muid buíoch den Aire gur chuir sé a leithéid de dhuine ar an mBord. Tá fhios agam go ndéanfaidh sé a dhicheall ar son Tír Chonaill agus ar son na gcontaethe eile go léir.

Bhí lúthgháir orainn fosta a chloisint ón Aire go bhfuil siad ag scrúdú scéim na dtithe gloine a mhéadú. Sin scéim a chuidigh go mór leis na daoine agus dá mbeadh an scéim fairsing déarfainn go mbéadh sé chomh maith le tionscail ar bith a d'fhéadfaidh an tAire a chur ar bun. Tá fhios againn an cuidiú atá sa scéim sin le daoine a choinneáil sa bhaile. Déarfainn féin dá ndéanfadh sé méadú ar an scéim sin go gcuideodh sé go mór le saol na ndaoine a dhéanamh níos fear sa pháirt sin den tír.

Deirtear go minic go bhfuil na Gaeltachtaí marbh, ach sílimse gur chuidigh na scéimeanna atá ar bun le mórán blianta go mór leis an Ghaeltacht a shábháil.

Tá scéimeanna iascaireachta ag dul ar aghaidh go maith agus tá ag éirí le scéimeanna na gColáistí do na páistí.

Tá na tionscail a chuir an Rialtas agus Roinn na Gaeltachta ar bun ag dul ar aghaidh go maith. I gcás tionscail na mbréagán, tá an ceann i gCruadhlaoich ag dul ar aghaidh go maith ó bhliain go bliain. Cuidíonn an scéim sin go speisialta le cuid mhór de na cailíní a choinneáil sa bhaile. Bá mhaith liomsa dá mbeadh an Bord seo ag breathnú ar scéim eile a chuideodh le na buachaillí a choinneáil sa bhaile. Feicim fhéin obair le déanamh sa Ghaeltacht; agus dá mbeadh siad ag obair sa Ghaeltacht tá seans níos fearr go bpósfadh siad ann agus go dtógfadh siad a gcuid páistí ann. Faoi láthair, tá an taos óg ag dul go hAlbain agus go Sasana agus ag pósadh i nGlascú, i mBirmingham, i gCoventry agus i Lonndain, agus ag tógáil a ndaltaí thall ansin. Cuidigh an scéim aibhléise fosta le saol na ndaoine a dhéanamh níos fearr.

Indiaidh na sceimeanna uilig, tim go bhfuil níos mó daoine ag fáganít na tíre anios ná 50 blian ó shoin. An t-am sin, ní raibh scéim na dtithe, scéim na gCúig Punt, Scéim na mbailtí mora agus an scéim leithreas acu, ní raibh scéim ar bith; agus ina dhiadh sin is uile ní raibh níos mór daoine ag fágáil an t-am sin ná mar atá anois. Tá an t-aos óg ag imeacht anois as tithe maithe, i bhfad níos fearr ná mar a bhí ag na daoine rompu, agus tá siad ag dul go Sasana agus go hAlbain. Is doilligh sin a thuigbháil. Sílim fhein dá mbeadh seans oibre ag na buachaillí óga nach rachadh an oireadh acu, ar scor ar bith.

Tá buiochas ag dul do na Rialtais agus do Roinn na Gaeltachta mar gheall-ar na rudai atá deanta le 20 blian agus níos mó. Rinne siad tionscail a bhunú i dTir Chonaill agus tá siad sin ag dul ar aghaidh go maith. Tá súil agam go mbeidh siad dá méadú ins na blianta atá romhainn.

D'fheadfaimís tri lá a chaitheamh ar an abhar seo in ionad trí huaire nó mar sin. Ba cheart go mbeadh níos mó suime againn ins an gcuid sin den tir a d'fhan dílis don teanga agus don náisiúntacht leis na céata blian. Choinneáil muintir na Gaeltachta ag Ghaeilge beo nuair nach raibh mórán le fáil as. Mar sin, tá sé beag go leor a iarraidh ar Rialtas náisiunta cuidiú fá leith a thabhairt dóibh.

Tá ceist na Gaeilge agus na Gaeltachta dá phlé go láidir i mease an phobail fá láthair. Tá díospóireacht ar siúl agus daoine ag rá nach bhfuil an dul chun cinn a mbeadh daoine ag súil leis déanta i gceist na Gaeilge, agus ag rá go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht ag dul i luighead, agus go bhfuil labhairt na Gaeilge ins an Ghaeltacht ag dul ar gcúl.

Ní aontaoím fhein leis na tuairmí sin. Rinneadh a lán ar son na Gaeltachta ó cuireadh tús leis an Stát. Roimhe sin, bhí daoine a raibh spiorad an naisíúntachais iontu ag obair go cruaidh sa Ghaeltacht agus taobh amuigh di ar son na teangan. I dtosach, chomh fada is a bhaineann sé leis an Ghaeltacht, bhí an bhéim ar fhóirthint ar chultúr na Gaeltachta, an cultúr Gaelach, a choinneál beo ins an chuid sin den tír ar imeallbhord an iarthair. Bhí béim fosta ar chluichí Gaelacha, ar dhamhsaí Gaelacha agus mar sin de. Bhí sár-iarracht á dhéanamh chun daoine óga a thabairt ón Ghalltacht go dtí na Colaistí agus na scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht, go dtí na ceantracha i a bhfuil an Ghaeilge á labhairt iontu. Sílim féin gurb é an dearmad is mó a rinneadh ansin, go ndearnadh faillí i saol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta. Anois tá an baol ann go ndeanfar dearmad ar fad ar an saol culturtha, ar labhairt na teangan, na cluichí Gaeltcha agus mar sin de, agus go mbeidh barríocht béime ar thionscail agus sceimeanna mar seo agus mar siud.

Ba cheart an dá rud—fóirthint ar shaol eacnamaíochta na Gaeltachta agus gan dearmad den saol culturtha chomh maith.

Is gá, maradúirt an Teachta Ó Breisleáin, obair a chur ar siúl do na fir óga agus do na cailíní óga ann. Is fíor gur caitheadh a lán airgid ar scéimeanna éagsúla chun socair na Gaeltachta. Cuireadh mór-chuid de na buntáisti a ba cheart teacht as na scéimeanna sin ar neamh-ni de dheascaibh na heisimirce as an Ghaeltacht go dtí ní hamháin an choigeríoch, Sasain agus Alba ach go dtí na cathracha móra sa tír seo.

Cuireadh scéimeanna ar bun a thug roint oibre do na fir sa Ghaeltacht ar feadh cúpla mí nó cúpla seachtain agus tréimhsí mar sin anois is arís ach níl mórán maithis san obair sin mar, nuair a bhíonn an obair críochnaithe, imeoidh na daoine chun obair d'fháil in áitheacha eile. Is é an aidhm a ba chóir a bheith ag an Rialtas, Roinn na Gaeltachta, agus Bord na Gaeltachta obair leanúnach a chur ar siúl i dtreo go mbeidh na daoine ógra—go mór mhór na fir óga—sa Ghaeltacht ábalta obair d'fhail ó thús go deireadh na bliana nó, pé, scéal é, ar feadh mór-chuid den bhliain. Is féidir sin a dhéanamh.

Sa Ghaeltacht, tá go leor talaimh nach bhfuil dá úsáid fé láthair— talamh nach bhfuil ag tabhairt buntáiste ar bith do na daoine. Is féidir an talamh sin a úsáid agus scéimeanna foraoiseachta a chur ar siúl agus in áit mór-chuid den phlanndáil atá ar siúl a bheith in oirthear na tíre ba cheart níos mó a thabhairt don iarthar. In áiteachta ar nós Cill Manntáin táthar a rá go bhfuiltear ag dul ró-fhada leis an bhforaoiseacht agus go bhfuiltear ag úsáid talaimh atá oiriúnach i gcóir talamhaíochta agus mar sin de. Dá gcuirfí scéimeanna forleithne foraoiseachta ar siúl i ngach Gaeltacht bheadh dhá bhuntáiste acu. Ar an gcéad dul síos thabharfadh sé obair leanúnach do na fir ansin agus ina dhiaidh sin thabharfadh sé buntaiste don tír ar fad.

Rud eile, dá ndéanfaí na scéimeanna a leathnú ar fuaid imeallbhoird an iarthair, tar éis roinnt bliain thiocfadh as go gcuirfí feabhas ar aeráid na tíre. Tagann an ghaoth ar feadh an chuid is mó den bhliain ón iarthar. Thiocfadh le crios foraoiseachta maolú a chur ar an bhfliuchra agus an stoirm, agus bheadh buntáiste na haeráide le fáil ní hamháin sa Ghaeltacht ach ar fud imeallbhoird na tíre ar fad san iarthar.

Ag tagairt do cheist na hoibre leanúnaí arís, is féidir an iascaireacht fheabhsú ó Thir Chonaill do dtí Corcaigh. Dúradh nach bhfuilimid ach ag baint greama anso agus ansúd as tionscal na hiascaireachta ar fuaid na tíre go léir. Cén fáth nach gcuirfí tosach le scéim fiúntach chun tionscal na hiascaireachta a chur ar a chosa mar atá sé i dtíortha eile agus go gcuirfí tús leis an dtionscal sin sa Ghaeltacht?

Ar an gcéad dul síos ba cheart báid a chur ar fáil do na hiascairí atá ina gcónaí na Ghaeltacht. Tá taithí acu ar na báid beaga ó 30 troigh go dtí 40 troigh. Níl taithí acu ar na báid atá níos mó ná sin. Tá eagla orthu báid den tsaghas sin a fháil mar tá baol ann nach mbeadh siad ábalta íoc as na báid sin. Ba cheart don Roinn deimhin a dhéanamh de go dtabharfaí eolas dóibh ar conas na báid so a láimhseáil agus na gléasraí nua-aoise, cosúil leis an radar, a láimhseáil.

Má deintear sin, sílim féin go dtiocfaidh feabhas ar an iascaireacht san iarthar agus ní bheidh an baol céanna ann go bhfágfaidh na hiascairí a gcuid bád ar an gcladach agus go raghaidh siad go hAlbain nó go Sasain. Sin mar atá an scéal fé láthair. Tá iascairí maithe ann ach níl na gléasraí acu.

In áiteacha, chuir na daoine suas lena lán cruatain agus a lán contúirt ar an aigéan Atlantach ach níl aos og an lae inniú sásta an cruatan céanna d'fhulang. Aontaím leo. Ní cheart go mbeadh orthu an cruatan céanna d'fhulang. Le 15 bliana anuas tá gléasraí ann a chuidíonn leis na hiascairí chun níos mó iasc d'fháil agus a ghníonn an obair níos réidhe agus níos furasta dhóibh.

Fosta, cé go bhfuil an talamh atá acu sa Ghaeltacht olc—agus an-olc in áiteacha—ní cóir dúinn an talamh sin a "scríobh amach" agus a rá nach féidir son rud a dhéanamh leis. Is féidir. Chruthaigh scéim na dtrátaí i gCloch an Fhaoilligh gur féidir tionscal proifitiúil a dhéanamh as an drochthalamh. Cuireadh na tithe gloine sin ar siúl agus tá na feirmeoirí ábalta cuid mhaith airgid a dhéanamh dá bhárr. Is féidir an rud céanna a dhéanamh i nGaeltachtaí eile agus is féidir dul níos fuide ná trataí.

Tá foilsiúcháin Ghaeilge a bhfuil díol ortha ins an Ghaeltacht agus mór-chuid aca ag fáil deontaisí ón Roinn Oideachais. Cuirim ar shúile an Aire gur ceart deontas a thabhairt do cheann acu i dTír Chonaill go bhfuil a lán díol air agus atá ag déanamh obhair an-mhaith, sé sin "Amarach". Ní féidir liom a thuiscint cén fáth nach bhfuil deontas le fáil aige nuair atá sí le fáil ag foilsiúcháin eile, cuid acu nach bhfuil comh maith leis.

Molaim don Aire an obair atá ar siúl aige i dtaobh scéimeanna, agus mar sin de, a choinneál agus a leathnú ach gan dearmad a dhéanamh, san gnó seo faoi'n saol eacnamaíchta, ar shaol cultúrtha na Gaeltachta chomh maith.

If it suits the Minister's convenience, we are prepared to let him finish to-night.

Very well. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí i gcoitinne mar gheall ar na rudaí a dúradar. Níl Roinn na Gaeltachta ach ag tosnú ar an saothar mór atá rompu. Mar sin táim buíoch as na móltaí agus na comhairlí a tugadh inniu. Is mór an chabhair na moltaí sin d'fháil agus más féidir aon rud a dhéanamh in a dtaobh ar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta déanfaidh mé é, Níl ach foireann bhéag againn agus ní féidir gach rud a dhéanamh ar an bpointe. Do réir a chéile a tógtar na caisleáin, adeirtear. Tá súil agam, má gheibhimíd co-oibriú, go mbeimíd i n-ann saol mhuintir na Gaeltachta d'fheabhsú agus an Ghaeilge a chur ar aghaidh sa tír agus a choimead beo sa Ghaeltacht.

Deputy Lindsay appears to think that I have some special reason for what he calls covering up as far as Gaeltarra Eireann is concerned. There is no reason in the world why I should try to cover up anybody or anything in connection with Gaeltarra Eireann.

I agree. I said that.

The matters to which Deputy Lindsay has been referring have occurred. The complaints are that they did occur before ever I became Minister for the Gaeltacht. Some of them occurred, I think, when Deputy Blowick was Minister for the Gaeltacht and the accounting system and the complaints about which Deputy Lindsay is so verbose now were in existence there when he himself was Minister for the Gaeltacht, in respect of which, let me add, there was no change made by Deputy Lindsay when he was Minister.

If the Minister is taking up this attitude he will have it good and hard.

I want to refer briefly to the Report of the Committee on Public Accounts which has been quoted here. I want to make it clear that the report of that committee on the facts before them was, in my view, thoroughly justified. What I did point out to Deputy Lindsay by way of interruption was that these stocktaking figures that were before the committee were wrong and that it has been discovered——

Did it ever happen before?

I shall explain to the Deputy if he has sufficient patience to listen for a few moments. I shall quote what the committee said at page xv of their report:—

"...The evidence indicated that when an attempt was made to assess what tweed should be in store at 31st March, 1956—by aggregating receipt vouchers and issue vouchers —a surplus of 30,000 yards emerged. Questioned regarding this discrepancy the accounting officer advanced the view that the stocktaking must have been incorrect as the 1957 stocktaking on the same basis revealed a surplus of only 8,000 yards. The committee feels that the little reliance can be placed on these figures. In its view while the discrepancies might have been due to faulty stocktaking, they might equally be attributable to other causes."

That figure of 30,000 yards was due to faulty stocktaking on the 31st March, 1955. It has now been discovered that although the physical stock was correctly taken, in making out the summary for the whole Department portions of the stock were omitted. Whoever was preparing the summary evidently slipped up and portion of the stock that was in fact there was omitted. At that time, on the 31st March, 1955, had the correct figures been given the physical stock would have tallied quite closely with the notional, stock that should be there on paper. When I saw this I thought that some mistake must have been made in the stocktaking. I should point out that this mistake would account for a major proportion of that difference of 30,000 yards of the stock and that the basis on which the Committee on Public Accounts thought that 22,000 yards were missing was erroneous by virtue of the fact that this mistake was made in bringing out the totals of the physical stock after the physical stocktaking.

Does that mean the situation is correct now?

It means that that has been accounted for and I am satisfied, in the light of the papers and the accounts that will now be supplied to the Auditor-General and possibly to the Committee on Public Accounts—I am not quite sure what the procedure is—that they will be satisfied that this stock that both the committee and the accounting officer thought was missing when they were dealing with the matter was not in fact missing.

Why has not the Government auditor signed the trading accounts, if everything is as correct as the Minister says it is?

I am pointing out to the Deputy, and I am not going to be twisted on this——

There is no twisting— 18 miles of tweed.

I am pointing out that when this matter from the Public Accounts Committee came along in the ordinary way to the Department for the Gaeltacht, a check was made on the figures prepared and submitted to the Public Accounts Committee and that this has now been discovered— that they did in fact make this omission in compiling the stock lists and these figures. They have discovered the mistake and these figures are now being submitted to the Auditor-General. I have no doubt that, if the Auditor-General is not satisfied, he will say so; but what I am pointing out is that when the stocktaking—and I will underline the time it happened; it started on 31st of March, 1955—was accepted as being wrong, of course the position was that it was wrong since; the position was wrong at the end of the year naturally, and wrong all down the line. It would now appear that the major portion of that 30,000 yards is accounted for by the fact that part of the summary of the stock was left out in the final summary submitted.

That is as far as I want to go in dealing with the report of this committee, except to say, of course, that they were quite right on the information before them, as to their report. I also want to say that the accounting system followed out over a number of years was not satisfactory. It was anything but satisfactory from a business point of view. That system has been changed and a different type of stock records is now being kept, and the system has been in operation since last October in Gaeltarra Eireann. The records they had were not at all adequate for the job that has to be done. Possibly the system of records which they had might have been sufficient years ago when their turn-over was very small and when the business of Gaeltarra Éireann was very small. That system would be completely inadequate for the business that has been carried on in recent times by Gaeltarra Eireann, a business with a turnover of practically £1,000,000.

I understand the Auditor-General is to check the new system that has been introduced and he is to say whether he considers it satisfactory or otherwise. I do not think he has done so. Possibly he is waiting for the other figures to go back to him from Gaeltarra Éireann. In my view, the present system which was introduced in October last is quite a good system and is quite adequate for the purpose it has to serve.

And was necessary.

And was necessary and was introduced. I should also say that the accounting officer who was the accounting officer before the Public Accounts Committee is not now responsible for Gaeltarra Eireann, and the figures relate, in the main, back to the year 1955-56—I assume from 31st March, 1955.

Reference has been made by Deputy Lindsay to a case against an official and it is correct—I have got the latest information about this matter—that this official did misappropriate funds, I think Deputy Lindsay said £300; in actual fact, it was £219. The position he held was cashier and I suppose it is not the first time that we have had complaints of this sort. From my experience in the Cabinet, unfortunately, civil servants from time to time do get into trouble of this kind and not alone are they dismissed, but where money is misappropriated, they are prosecuted.

When was the last case?

In this instance, this money was misappropriated by this man and evidently the misappropriation was discovered. When it was discovered, he confessed to the irregularities and undertook to pay back the amount involved, which he did long before court proceedings were instituted against him. The money was paid back by this unfortunate man, but in all cases of this kind the Department of Finance, as I understand the procedure, insist on prosecutions being brought, irrespective of what the position may be in regard to repayments. This man was duly prosecuted for misappropriating this money, which, as I say, had been paid back before the prosecution was brought. He was dismissed before the prosecution and when the case came to court, I am informed that appeals were made by his advisers on compassionate grounds, that he had a young family and that he had succeeded in getting another job and if a conviction was recorded against him, he would lose the employment he had succeeded in getting.

In these circumstances, the Minister for Finance agreed not to press the prosecution—in view of the fact that the money had been repaid and the fact that he would lose the employment that he now has, if a conviction were recorded against him. It was for that reason, and solely for that reason, that the Attorney-General did not tender evidence when the case came before the court again, so that he would be enabled to continue in the employment he now has.

The Minister knows well that the application of the Probation Act does not amount to a conviction. Why was it not dealt with in that way?

The application of the Probation Act is in fact a conviction.

I beg to dispute it.

I assert it is. You are convicted but you are given the benefit of the Probation of Offenders Act. The situation was reported here is that if there was a conviction recorded against him, he would lose the employment he has now succeeded in getting following his dismissal from the Department.

The Minister has legal experience. Has he ever seen a criminal case treated in this manner before the courts, namely, no tendering of evidence by the State in the face of a confession of guilt?

I have often seen a nolle prosequi entered for the State for various reasons——

This was not a nolle prosequi.

——or charges withdrawn by the State.

This was deliberate suppression of evidence.

These are the simple facts.

They are not correct.

I do not know this man. I do not believe I ever saw him. I did not know the basis of what the Deputy spoke about until I got this information here to-night. I am quite satisfied that the effect on this man's present position was the sole reason.

How could it affect his present employment when it is with a committee operated by public funds and over which the Government has control? Stop whitewashing this thing.

I am not whitewashing this thing but I will not let the Deputy get away with the suggestion that this man's unfortunate lapse had anything whatever to do with the position in Gaeltarra Éireann or what the Deputy terms "cloaking up things in Gaeltarra Éireann". This man did wrong. The money he misappropriated was paid back. After that he was prosecuted. The matter came to court and when representations were made that he would lose his present job if there was a conviction, it was on these compassionate grounds that the Minister for Finance agreed that the Attorney-General would not offer evidence.

The Probation Act or a nolle prosequi would have met the case.

It might suit the Deputy's purpose to argue technicalities. Surely I am entitled to——

The Attorney-General, the Minister for Justice and the Minister for the Gaeltacht are bound up in this effort to prevent the law taking its course.

I insist on speaking without interruption on this matter.

The Minister should be allowed conclude.

I do not know what position this man is in now. All I know is it was strongly represented that if a conviction were recorded against him, he would lose his present employment. I do not know whether or not on previous occasions the State took a similar line. I feel quite sure it must have happened on different occasions.

I never saw it.

Has the Minister evidence of it?

If it were put to me that it was a question of this man losing his employment as a result of this lapse and that the State had recovered the money and lost nothing, I would consider that the proper course had been taken in his case.

Is the Minister serious in suggesting that the suppression of evidence is a proper course?

I am quite serious in suggesting that—taking into account the compassionate grounds, that the money was paid back, that he was prosecuted, had to come into court and was represented—after all that, when these representations were made the right line was taken. In these circumstances I certainly would not take the line of hounding this unfortunate man.

There is no hounding. I would be satisfied with the Probation Act or a nolle prosequi.

I think the proper approach was taken by the people concerned.

I am not satisfied with it.

A hungry man gets two months in jail for stealing a loaf. There is justice!

This seems to be a matter for another Minister.

Unfortunately I was not aware of this during the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Justice.

What happened in this matter is not a matter for decision by me, but having received the explanation of what did happen, it is only fair I should give it to the House.

The explanation is that adverse publicity for Gaeltarra Éireann at that time would have been bad.

The Minister should be allowed conclude.

If the Deputy thinks he is frightening anybody by referring to adverse publicity, he is only fooling himself.

Wait and see.

I do not see why I should be concerned about matters that happened away back—

Frankly, neither do I.

—before I came to the Department

The Minister has set himself up as a champion of the fraud.

The Deputy has just made the remark that the Minister has set himself up as a champion of fraud. He must withdraw the remark.

Yes. I will say he has set himself up as a champion of the suppression of evidence.

Ba mhaith liom an tAire a chosaint ón a thuille cur isteach air agus é a chur deire leis an díospóireacht.

Why did the Parliamentary Secretary not come in earlier? The Parliamentary Secretary always runs out of the House.

In the years gone by when the Estimates for this Department came before the House, the fact that the accounts of Gaeltarra Eireann were not conducted on a satisfactory system evidently was not then adverted to by anybody. It is true that, from a business point of view, the business carried out by Gaeltarra Eireann was completely, unsuited to the Civil Service system under which it has to work. The people who were there, and the civil servants in particular, were trying to do the best they could under the system they had. The system they had, as far as any businessman would look at it, was a complete joke. That has been put on record by some American consultants who were called in some time ago to look over their operations. It was for that reason and because the Civil Service system was unsuitable for running, a business of this kind, that the Bill, providing for the new board was brought in here.

Deputy Lindsay asked about the new board. I did not think there was any necessity for me to give the names of the members of the board to the House; I thought everybody knew all about them—and possibly Deputy Lindsay does, too. The four members appointed are experienced businessmen, with one exception; and that individual has a very long connection with the Galway Gaeltacht and has done a tremendous amount of work there. To my mind, he was a very suitable person to have on that board. I should say, in case there is any misunderstanding, that the Secretary of my Department, Mr. Ó Braonáin, is there only in a temporary capacity. I made that arrangement for two reasons. The first reason was that it would be unfair to any board that I should pick their chief executive officer, without the board themselves having a say in the matter and trying to find an individual qualified and satisfactory from their point of view. Secondly, we are engaged in the change-over period, when it would be useful for me to have the Secretary of my Department there while the board are building up their own organisation and when we are getting back a number of the civil servants still employed in Gaeltarra Éireann.

The Minister would not like to give a third or more cogent reason?

The Secretary of my Department is there in a purely temporary capacity. Immediately we find a suitably qualified man as managing director for Gaeltarra Eireann, Mr. Ó Braonáin will resign from that board and the new man will come in. It is not very easy to get the type of man who is qualified and experienced in this work from the business point of view and who also has a thorough knowledge of the Irish language. However, when they do not get the man and are satisfied that he is suitably qualified, Mr. Ó Braonáin will come off the board and the new managing director will go on.

Deputy Lindsay or some other Deputy raised a question as to the figure of the Grant-in-Aid we have here. That figure is the difference between the expenses of the board and the amount which was estimated will come into the board from sales. That is the basis on which it is done this year.

Speaking generally of the board and its functions and powers, it appears to me that Deputy McMenamin did not follow the debate when the Bill was going through the Dáil under which this board is established. Firstly, the board are charged with the duty of running the existing Gaeltacht industries, with the exception of Arramara, Teoranta. The reason why Arramara, Teoranta, was specifically excluded from the Bill is that it was a company in which the Minister is a shareholder but there is also an outside concern with a shareholding in it; and the outside concern is located the other side of the water and it is through them that the products of Arramara, Teoranta, are sold. The position is really like that of any private company in which there are other shareholders. That was why it was not brought under this new board. This board have the power to extend any of the existing rural Gaeltacht industries, if they can, and to start any new industries which would appear to them to be feasible in the different Gaeltacht areas.

As to any directions given, to the board, they were told that they could work in close co-operation with Córas Tráchtála Teoranta andn that their job is to extend, if they can, the existing industries; and if they can get new industries going, all the better. Their first job is to reorganise the existing industries. I understand they are now engaged in that task. So far, at all events, I have received no complaint about the board, whatever Deputy Lindsay may say of them.

I have not said anything about them.

As far as I know, they are a very competent board. The members were chosen because they were the most suitable I could find and they, are, in the main, all very experienced businessmen. I have the utmost confidence in them and I believe that, given a chance, they will show results.

Deputy McMenamin also seems to be under another misapprehension. In the case of any of these new schemes, particularly Scéim na Muc, An Scéim Súgh Talún or the others, all my Department does is provide the money. We work through the most suitable organisations we can find who have the necessary technical staff and training to carry out these schemes. For instance, we are working in close co-operation with the county committees of agriculture in different counties. I am glad to say I have received tremendous co-operation from them and from the local authorities. These schemes, such as strawberry growing, onion growing and Scéim na Muc, are administered through the county committees of agriculture, and some road schemes are being administered through the different county councils.

We have a number of other trial schemes in progress at the moment, in addition to those to which I have referred. In addition, we have Scéim na nlnniún and scéim na Bléibiní, growing Dutch bulbs on the Aran Islands. They have been more than successful in the Outer Hebrides and I hope, for the sake of the Aran people, that, through their experimental plots, their district will prove suitable for that development. The economy of the Gaeltacht areas varies very much as between different counties and different places, and while it would be very difficult to apply a scheme nationally that would suit every Gaeltacht, in my view and in the view of the Department, it is necessary to have a greater amount of flexibility and to try to encourage what may be the most suitable for people in the different Gaeltacht areas.

I do not suggest for one moment that any of these schemes is the answer to national emigration. There is emigration from the Gaeltacht, just as there is from the congested districts. In fact, in one way it is surprising that there is not much more emigration even from the Gaeltacht than from other areas, because in the main the worst of the land slums were in these districts. The people are not now prepared to put up with the standard of living that their fathers or grandfathers were prepared to endure. While I do not suggest that the schemes I am introducing will solve this problem, I do suggest that the provision of these schemes will bring considerable relief to those areas and enable them to make better use of what is already there. That is the most I can hope for them.

I hope that with the co-operation of the county committees of agriculture and the local authorities we will be able, during the coming year, to introduce more of these schemes to the different areas and provide at least that much to help the people living there. I have taken a note of the points made by the other Deputies. I am very glad for Deputies' co-operation and for any suggestion they made to help me to deal with the task I have in the Gaeltacht.

Vote put and agreed to.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 7th May, 1958.
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