Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 17 Jun 1958

Vol. 169 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration—(Deputy Cosgrave).

In reply to a question I raised last year in regard to profit-sharing, the Minister informed me that this matter was being actively pursued but it is like the electric hare. The Minister seems to be pursuing it but he will never catch up with it. One of the greatest faults of our industrial set-up is lack of incentive. Profit sharing, of itself, could increase the output of our industrial arm and at the same time help to do away with many of the strikes and agitations arising from time to time.

The action of workers, such as those employed by Messrs. Arthur Guinness and Company, in creating a fund for the establishment of small industries, is highly commendable. The purpose is to prevent emigration. The Minister should take a leaf out of their book. Little industries can go a long way. If they collapse, the effect is not the same as in the case of a major industry.

I referred to factory inspectors last year. I should like to mention them again, and in particular their domineering attitude when they visit certain small industries. They are prepared to find fault but are not prepared to suggest a remedy or give advice. I do not know where they get their standards or how they are qualified for their positions. In spite of all these inspectors do we find the figure of 1,800 accidents last year. The Minister should tell these inspectors that when visiting small industries their attitude should be to try to help them in every way and not to shut them down.

When speaking last week, I referred to the tourist industry. I am prompted to refer to the number of civil servants who learn the Irish language for the purpose of securing their positions. A lot of them are now learning Spanish, German and French for the purpose of touring the Continent. Would it not be more patriotic for them to see Ireland first?

Is the Minister responsible for this?

Seeing that these people have secured their jobs in this country, they should at least plough back into it a little of their money.

That is a different matter altogether. Only matters for which the Minister is responsible may be discussed.

The Minister might set a headline in his Department by encouraging those under him, and he has quite a lot of them. They could play a big part by visiting our small resorts now and then.

Even though we may be critical of them at times, Bord Fáilte are to be congratulated on the excellent propaganda films they have produced. We saw some of them at a preview recently before they were sent abroad. They are well worth while. I am glad to see the establishment of an Irish film industry. There is a great future for it. We have the materials, the actors and scenery second to none. I hope however we shall see something more uplifting than the films produced by certain people who came here to produce films and held the country up to ridicule.

It was rather amusing to find the Taoiseach stating recently that this country has regained a confidence it has not had for years. That statement reminds me of the young man, going home late at night, who whistles very loudly when he is passing the graveyard to give himself a little courage. Will the Minister give the Taoiseach the figures issued recently for a balance of trade? To say the least of it, they are disturbing. Were it not for our agricultural exports, what would the figures be? Of course, some Deputies on the far side of the House boasted at one time that the British market was gone—"and gone forever, thank God!"

Prior to the last by-election, the Minister promised £100,000,000 and 100,000 jobs. I do not know when he intends to tap that £100,000,000 to let the honey flow, but I am prepared to settle with him for 1,000 of those jobs in my constituency. We shall give him every co-operation. We shall even help him by supplying free sites for the establishment of industries.

Does the Minister recall talking in this House about the size of the loaf during the inter-Party Government? He said they had cut a slice off the loaf. Whatever they may have done about cutting a slice off the loaf, they certainly did not increase the price of the loaf to the figure at which it now stands. I would ask the Minister to state if he is prepared to put that slice back on the loaf. In a large family, even a slice counts.

As the Minister emphasised in introducing this Estimate, the problem of unemployment, and its concomitant evil, emigration, can be tackled effectively only if we provide sufficient industrial employment. It is true to say that in successive Governments over the past 30 years considerable progress has been made in the provision of industrial employment. On an analysis of the figures over the past 30 years, there is no doubt that the increase in industrial employment is over 100 per cent. That is a very creditable performance for a small country, short of capital, short of technicians and short of an industrial tradition. It is not a bad thing to keep that in mind when we are critical of progress or are not satisfied that we are making sufficiently quick progress to enable us to catch up on the leeway in relation to unemployment and emigration, which, incidentally, are the legacy left us since the affairs of the Twenty-Six Counties were taken over some 35 years ago.

We should also remember that the provision of employment in industry over the past 30 years has had to be done at considerable capital cost, and, having regard to the cost of the heavy investment in industry over the years, we should now pause to consider what the cost will be in terms of capital to provide the number of jobs required every year if we are to offset the present heavy rate of emigration and make some substantial reduction in the very high incidence of unemployment, which even to-day is running at the rate of 60,000 to 70,000.

Examining the prospect, we must admit that at this date there is no possibility that out of our own resources, we will be able to provide the necessary openings in industry and manufacture to absorb the 15,000 or 20,000 men who come on the labour market every year. The Minister realises that and has endeavoured to give some practical effect to the position by introducing his recent Bill to encourage external investors to invest money here in order that we may successfully tackle the problem of unemployment.

Industrial expansion depends on two outlets—the home consumer and the export market. It is admitted by all that the home market is now reaching a stage at which there is very little room for industries set up here with the idea of supplying the home market solely. Any future developments, therefore, must be on the basis of exports. The question of increasing consumption at home is, of course, not entirely a matter for the Minister. It is a matter for the Government as a whole. I regret that so far the Government have not indicated, other than in very indefinite terms, their proposals for expanding the home market by giving employment to a substantial section of the large number at present drawing unemployment benefit and unemployment assistance.

I appreciate that one cannot wave a magic wand and create jobs overnight. We are living in an age, however, where almost every Government, certainly in Western Europe, has laid out five-year or ten-year plans, indicating quite clearly to the people what they intend to do to grapple with the problems of unemployment and under-employment, both in human and material resources. These targets are arrived at by bringing together the best brains in the country to draw up the plan or scheme, a plan or scheme which will go on irrespective of changes of Government. I am not a believer in the theory that planning is a solution to all our evils.

Hear, hear!

I do not believe planning is the solution, but it is only reasonable to accept the proposition that, whether you are running a business or running a country, you must set yourself some target two, three or five years ahead, and sufficient capital must be set aside out of the country's resources to implement the plan in the different sectors of the economy.

It is equally important that the young people growing up should see that there are opportunities in their own country. A large proportion of the young people leaving the country every year—some of them leaving good jobs—are not going because they are not satisfied with their present jobs, because they have to go or because they suffer from a wanderlust. They are going because they do not see sufficient future in the country not only for themselves but for their children. If they felt they were in a country which was expanding economically and in which there was a spirit of enterprise and a desire to progress, a very large proportion of those who are going would remain at home. Future Governments will have to direct their attention to supplying that need in the lives of our young people, a need which is psychological rather than material, but a need which is nevertheless very evident.

Over the past 30 years this country, through its taxpayers and its ratepayers, has made a heavy contribution towards the protection of Irish industry. The Minister might agree, possibly, if he were to turn back the pages of those 30 years during which protection has been in existence, that he might be more discriminating in selecting industries for protection, that having regard to the necessity of keeping down production costs, particularly in regard to agriculture, protection might not have been afforded on such a wide scale. However, it is easy to be wise after the event and I do not wish to criticise the Minister on that account. From 1932 onwards the conditions were far different from what they are to-day and it needed some new departure to give the country that impetus towards industrialisation, let alone to supply employment to any degree.

The time has now come for reassessment and the Minister who, I am quite certain has the necessary foresight and courage to implement it, should be quite ruthless in regard to inefficient protected industries that have not justified themselves over three decades. A number of first-class industries have made the most of their protection. Some of them entered the export market and are doing remarkably well, and the people directing those industries deserve the greatest credit for their achievements. However, a number of other industries have not availed of the protection to modernise their plants, to see that their industries were organised in greater depth, that more processing was done in this country rather than bring in material processed to quite a degree and then just rounding it off or packing it here. That type of industry has been of little benefit and has largely succeeded in raising costs to the other sections of the community.

Some years ago the Minister was bringing in a Bill—I have forgotten the title of it—the substance of which was to carry out a very searching inquiry into all industries and to insist on industry putting its house in order or else going out of business altogether. We are coming to the stage where being so dependent, as we are, on the export trade for future development and for the future creation of employment, we must be ruthless in the interests of the community in seeing that every section of our manufacturing industries is run efficiently and competitively.

The decentralisation of industry, while having substantial advantages from the point of view of giving employment in country towns and rural areas, has also had its disadvantages. We find that dotted throughout the country are a number of factories making the same type of goods that could most certainly be made more efficiently and at a lower cost in a smaller number of factories concentrated in a smaller number of areas. If European free trade comes into existence it is difficult to see how these small uneconomic industries can exist. I know the Minister is watching that aspect of the position carefully and that Ireland, along with some other undeveloped countries, will get protection which will allow us 15 to 17 years or longer to put our house in order, but it is difficult to see how a small factory with an uneconomic output can put its house in order unless it is prepared to consolidate or co-operate with other factories of a similar type. The Minister may find it necessary either to encourage or to force such industries to take this drastic step.

Future industrial development should be very closely linked with agriculture. When I say agriculture, I mean efficient agriculture. The greatest hope for our future is the development of agriculture but when we use that sweeping term we do not go far enough. It is not sufficient to develop agriculture. The solution lies in the development of agriculture and industry together, industry being, as Arthur Griffith described it many years ago, the second arm, and depending largely on its raw material from this country. That means a scientific approach to the whole question of raw material and the expenditure of far greater sums on that aspect. The weakest possible position for any country is to be an exporter of raw materials. The closer we can get to the processed article the stronger will be our position.

There may be possibilities for expansion in plastics. I do not mean in plastic articles but in the manufacture of the raw material. I know that means a very costly plant and very heavy capital investment but, with the substantial increase in the number of firms making articles from plastics, the time has arrived when it might be well worth examining whether it would be economic to make the actual plastic here. If that is economic or practicable it will be a welcome development.

During various debates, there has been a great deal of discussion on the question of C.I.E. It is a pity we did not integrate C.I.E. more closely over the years with our industrial development. C.I.E. is essentially suited for drawing heavy loads over long distances. We could have done more to link our industrial arm more closely to the national transport system. A recent example of what I have in mind has been the co-ordination of the cement factory in Limerick with the C.I.E. system. If that had been done in other respects, it would have guaranteed the type of carriage for which C.I.E. is particularly suited and have given us an efficient service.

I should like to dwell for a few minutes on the problems of my own area, Limerick. In Limerick we are in the invidious position of being almost on the edge of the undeveloped areas and at the same time contiguous to Dublin with all the attractions for almost everybody wishing to set up a factory in this country. Quite a number of industries have been set up in recent years in the undeveloped areas under the Act and, naturally, I hope those industries will be successful.

The Minister should seriously consider extending the benefits of the Industrial Grants Act to areas at present outside the undeveloped areas. Under the Act of 1956, two-thirds of the cost of any new building will be given by way of non-repayable grant. That concession would be far more valuable if it were applicable to plant and machinery. It is a very big factory building two-thirds of the cost of which would amount to £50,000. It is not unusual for manufacturers nowadays to hire or rent factory buildings. The items that produce the wealth and give the employment are the machinery and equipment that go into the factory. The Minister might seriously consider extending the scope of the Act to include plant and machinery. An argument against that is that the Act was designed specifically for certain areas on the western seaboard, but, if we are to achieve a balanced industrial development, some extension of the Act or some improvement of the terms of the Act is necessary.

I sometimes think that it might be far better, instead of concentrating on one area such as the western seaboard or the western countries, to select regional centres and to develop them. In order to have anything like substantial industrial development, there must be a community of a minimum size. What that size is, I could not say —20,000, 30,000, or 50,000. There might be a better return and more efficient factories if we concentrated on certain selected areas and gave special encouragement for the establishment of factories in those areas.

Within recent years, the decision to cut down substantially on imports, particularly imports of feed grain, wheat and so on, has very severely hit the Port of Limerick. Limerick is essentially an importing port, dependent largely on grains, timber and coal. Due to Government policy, all of these items have shown very heavy reductions during recent years. We are now in the position, in Limerick, of having spent almost £400,000 on a port development scheme. We are awaiting delivery of a dredger which will cost £100,000, against which we are getting a substantial grant from the Department. The trade of the port is now in such a state that the present financial position will allow the port only to balance its outgoings and income over the next six months. Unless there is some substantial improvement, either in exports or in imports, it is very difficult to see what the position will be after that.

I am quite sure that others of the smaller ports suffer from the same difficulty. With the huge concentration of shipping in Dublin, which takes something like two-thirds of the total shipping, the smaller ports have suffered severely, particularly the ports on the South and West which together take only 5 per cent. of the total shipping in and out of this country.

Limerick is not essentially a manufacturing centre. That is one of its weaknesses. The average employment there over a number of years has not been more than about 3,500 people. It is the type of city that I had in mind when I spoke about a centre that would be suitable for industrial development. It is big enough to carry the necessary technical schools to give technical training, which is an essential part of any scheme of industrial development. The Minister would be very well advised to consider giving special encouragement to centres like Limerick, which can carry schools, colleges and technical training centres for young people for labour purposes.

I notice from the terms of trade for last year that the only area with which we have a very satisfactory trading position is the Six Counties. I wonder if more could not be done between the Governments concerned to expand trade between the Six Counties and the Twenty-Six Counties. I do not know whether I am going beyond the confines of the Estimate in suggesting that there should be joint consultation, if not between the two Governments, at least between groups of industrialists on both sides of the Border to promote joint industrial or other enterprises, such as atomic energy, tourism, and a cross-channel service. These are the types of development on which there could be very useful discussions with our fellow Irish citizens in the Six Counties. I am quite certain that if the proper approach were made, we would find them receptive. They are hard-headed, realistic businessmen in the North, but co-operation between North and South, in the interests of the country as a whole, would be a very desirable development indeed.

Whether we should go to the lengths of having some form of trade commission to promote trade between the North and South, I do not know. That is a matter that could be considered by the Government. Anything that encourages economic and industrial co-operation, co-operation between manufacturers and workers North and South of the Border, would be a very welcome development indeed. In that regard, it might be well to consider giving some preferential treatment to imports from the Six Counties in order to encourage greater cross-border trade. That is a development that might be taken up by the Minister and his colleagues in the interests of the country as a whole.

The Minister mentioned that there is to be a committee to consider the question of the future of An Tóstal. My view is quite simple. I think An Tóstal should be wound up. Instead, I should like to see some form of encouragement given to tourists to come here in a particular month, say, the month of May. There should be some publicity drive to bring tourists to this country early in the year rather than spending money on the Tóstal which now seems to be concentrated in a very few areas and on lines not originally envisaged.

I have already referred to technical education. Next to the provision of capital, technical education is the most important development that we could encourage. If we can provide intelligent, trained labour, I have no doubt that we will succeed in encouraging outside capital. We are living in an era that has advanced very far, even since the emergency, and our young people should be trained to use their heads and their hands for their own benefit in this country or, if they cannot get employment here, to give them the technical qualifications to get the best possible employment outside. Much more money should be spent on that kind of development.

Another project that is, I regret to say, languishing for lack of financial help is Mianraí Teoranta. It was decided some years ago that Mianraí Teoranta would cease to do exploration. It think that was a pity. The Minister has at his disposal there a very efficient office in charge of a very competent director. To my mind, it is a pity, for the sake of a few thousand pounds a year, that Mianraí Teoranta should not be allowed to continue to do exploration. If we allow outsiders to come in to do exploration for us, I agree we save capital outlay, but at the same time we throw ourselves to some degree at least on the mercy of these gentlemen when it comes to determining the terms under which they are prepared to carry out development. We would be in a far sounder position if we had such areas as Avoca already explored to offer to outside capital to exploit.

The Minister's speech referred to a substantial number of applications for industrial grants that did not come within the provisions of the Act. Part of the reason for that, I believe, is that the Act, although it contains only a few lines, contains quite a few ambiguities which should be cleared up. The first of these is that the industrial grant will become payable on three grounds, that is, if the new industry will provide substantial employment, or will make available in the State substantial quantities of the commodity or will provide an opportunity for developing an export trade. It is quite possible that one might make available in the State substantial quantities of a commodity and yet employ very few people. That aspect of the Act needs clarification and perhaps the Minister would give it his attention at an early date.

Quite a few references have been made recently to the difficulties of old-established Irish companies in securing capital. I think it is not unfair criticism to say that for some years past we have been concentrating on encouraging new capital enterprises in this country and to some extent at least we have neglected the older manufacturing firms which have managed to carry on generation after generation in the teeth of world-wide competition. A number of them have been established here for over 100 years and there should be some provision to help them over a difficult period or to enable them to expand their plant or factory or improve their equipment, if they so desire.

I appreciate that the Industrial Credit Company exists to fill this want to some extent, but I do not believe it is completely filled by any of the existing financial institutions. It is a great pity that the banks here—or some of them, at least—have not before now come together to set up a financial corporation like the Industrial Credit Company, which, as that body's annual report shows, has done magnificent work over the years in expanding Irish industry and making available capital which is very close to risk capital for new enterprises. Our banks must appreciate how essential industrial development is and it is a pity they do not co-operate in setting up a financial institution for making capital available to industries, old and new. Such a development is quite common in England and Scotland and I think our banks here are lacking in enterprise to the extent that they have not gone into that market.

The type of capital we are likely to get for our new industries for export would be very close to risk capital. For that reason, I think it is very necessary to ensure that the terms given are very generous. I know the Minister had this in mind in introducing his new Industrial Development Bill, but, as I mentioned at the time, I do not think the Bill goes far enough to encourage the type of risk capital we want. I believe we can reasonably supply the type of capital we require for the home market ourselves, but the capital that involves substantial risk, large-scale capital involving technical knowledge, is not likely to be available here and the only way to get it is to make investments here more attractive than it is in other countries.

Reference has been made to the advantages of encouraging State enterprise and setting up of State-sponsored industries. In the early days of the State, no doubt, there was no agency available to initiate industrial development on a substantial scale and the State had to step in and take the place of private enterprise. I do not think that development should continue or that it is necessary to-day. I am satisfied that, given proper encouragement by the Government, private enterprise is competent and willing to undertake the risks necessary to provide industrial development and employment opportunities here, but I am quite certain that you cannot have it both ways. If you want to have State management or a State-controlled economy, you should not go around shouting about the advantages of private enterprise and saying how anxious you are to encourage private enterprise.

If we want private enterprise to operate, we must create an encouraging attitude. That is a factor that has not been altogether appreciated by successive Governments. If we want the private entrepreneur to take a risk, invest his capital, we must give him an opportunity of earning good profits. From time to time, there has been the suggestion that there is something immoral or wrong about earning a profit. Any country that has built up its economy on the basis of private enterprise has done so because it gave the private investor, businessman or industrialist, or even the small man starting on his own, reasonable encouragement and allowed him to reap an adequate reward.

Another factor which I think is essential here if we are to achieve further success in industrial development is co-operation between capital and labour. All the brains and capital and all the technical training in the world cannot succeed, if there is not amity and co-operation between labour and capital. In our small country, with our philosophy and our tradition of Christianity we should be able to set an example for every country in that respect. Perhaps, as one representing, I suppose, the capital side, I should say how much I appreciate the necessity of a fair and just approach to the worker so as to make him feel he is not working for the enterprise, but that he is working with it and that the enterprise is in his interest as much as in the employer's.

That is not merely a matter of preaching: I know the responsibility rests largely on the employer to demonstrate to the worker that the industry is there as much in the worker's interest as the employer's, that it offers the worker security, a decent livelihood and a human interest in the enterprise and that a worker cannot be regarded as a cog in a machine. He is a human being, just as the employer is, and on that basis I think we should be able to achieve a far greater degree of co-operation than has been achieved up to now, except in certain instances in certain industries to which great credit is due.

I was encouraged to see in the Minister's speech a reference to the future Shannon airport. The Minister appreciates from the queries, questions and annoyance he gets from Deputies, particularly Deputies from Counties Limerick and Clare, that we are all anxious that Shannon airport will be preserved. We are all anxious that everything possible will be done by the Government so that Shannon airport's place as the sole transatlantic airport in the country will be assured. I quite realise that the Minister can do only so much and that the future of the airway is completely outside his control because the future development of aircraft is something over which he has no control.

This country has a very substantial investment in Shannon airport. I am certain the Minister will do everything in his power to ensure that that investment is protected. We cannot ask him to do more than that. Nobody can foresee what line the future development of flying will take. All we can do, as a small country, is try to be a little ahead of the other fellow and ensure that we can offer at Shannon services as efficient as those available at any other airport in the world.

Apart from its employment content, Shannon airport is now reaching the stage where it is a paying enterprise. Its duty-free shop is now one of the biggest industrial undertakings in the country. I am quite certain that, with the development of the airport authority, a greater income will accrue. It is too soon yet to hazard a guess as to what the future of the new transatlantic airline will be. I can only say that probably the Minister's decision in regard to the service will be justified by future events and certainly will be justified as regards the position of Shannon airport.

I should like to see some form of maintenance set up at Shannon airport. That may be outside the Minister's control but, looking ahead, it seems reasonable to expect that at some future date a maintenance works or depot of substantial size will be required. The obvious location for that is our transatlantic airport at Shannon.

There has been quite a good deal of talk recently about developing a free port at the Shannon estuary. I know the Minister's mind on this matter. I suggest more steps might be taken by his Department to advertise the natural advantages of the Shannon estuary. Nobody can guarantee that, if you spend a considerable amount of money on fitting out a free port there, it will in fact be used. At comparatively small expense, however, the geographical and natural advantages of the Shannon estuary could be made known all over the world. We might be very surprised at the people who would be interested in such a development. It would cost the country only the price of advertising and sending out an attractively covered brochure to our embassies and various commercial organisations all over the world. It would be very well worth the comparatively small investment involved.

I should like to finish my speech by quoting from an address given recently in San Francisco to a gathering of international manufacturers by Mr. Robert L. Garner, President of the International Finance Corporation, which was reported in the magazine Progress. Mr. Garner had some interesting things to say which are not without relevance to our country. I shall quote briefly:—

"‘The bulldozer', he said, ‘can move almost anything except a habit or an idea'. It was inertia and vested interest, he believed, more than shortage of machines and capital that was holding back development—and in this several representatives of the underdeveloped countries agreed with him. Garner continued:—

‘Progress has its price, to be paid in hard thinking, hard working and a sacrifice of many of the accustomed ways of life. It requires not only energy but patience to lay sound foundations and to build effectively on them. It cannot be won by the spectacular and the merely politically popular measures and projects ...There needs to be law and order, a reasonable degree of political responsibility and stability, and a respectable administration of financial and other public affairs. Perhaps no country has ever combined these elements to perfection, but history has demonstrated that economic development is speeded up or slowed down in relation to the extent they have existed.'"

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has responsibility for so many things that it is difficult to know where to start when speaking on the Estimate for his Department. I prefer to confine myself to a few small points.

Deputy Russell congratulated the Minister on the improvement in industrial employment since 1932 or 1933. That may be so but, when we talk about employment, we must think outside the Department of Industry and Commerce. Whatever new jobs have been created under the aegis of the Department of Industry and Commerce or the various Ministers have not compensated for the enormous number of jobs lost on the land and in other forms of employment. We have lost hundreds of thousands of people in the past 36 years but particularly so in the past ten years.

To-day, a member of my Party asked the Taoiseach for emigration figures. In reply, we were informed that an average of 39,400 persons per annum emigrate from this country. On several occasions I asked the Taoiseach to establish some system whereby we could have an effective check on emigration. Invariably, he has told me it was impossible to do so—especially since we discontinued permits or passports from this country to Britain.

I have received some information in recent weeks from the British Ministry of National Insurance. It will amaze the House to learn that, in 1957, 58,496 workers from the Twenty-Six Counties applied for and received new national insurance cards—permits, so to speak, to work in Britain.

We have spoken about 50,000 people emigrating from this country every year, but here I have information which tells me that last year 58,496 people asked for permission to work in Britain. On top of that figure, we must add a certain number of wives and children because some of the workers who have emigrated during the past three, four or five years have taken their wives and children with them, and most of those wives and the grown members of the workers' families are not included in that figure of 58,496. For the previous year, I might say that the figure of persons applying for permission to work in Britain was about 1,000 less. I mention that figure to demonstrate that I do not hold the present Minister or the Government responsible for the colossal size of the figures I have given. However, the fact is that the figure for last year showed an increase of 1,000 as compared with 1956, and it does show the immensity of the problem which the Government and, in particular the Minister, have to tackle.

In my opinion, we have had an awful lot of airy-fairy talk in recent times about the establishment of industries. The workers and the people in general are becoming a little cynical about announcements in various newspapers to the effect that there were 50 new industries established last year, that there are plans for 96 more and that there are prospects for another 120. We never seem to feel or see the effects of the so-called establishment of these industries, but, on the other hand, we have examples of decreased employment in certain of our industries, and we have seen the closing down of a good number of them.

I am inclined to think that our whole approach, over the past 20 or 30 years, has been absolutely wrong in regard to the establishment of industries and I could not agree more with Deputy Russell when he says—it may be a cliché; it may be a well-worn phrase in this House—that we will not be able to establish industry on a proper footing, unless we can tie it up with agriculture. We find that as far as the majority of our industries are concerned, they are dependent on raw materials that must be imported from abroad. In some cases, we have even imported timber. For plastic factories and even heavy machinery factories, we have to go to Germany, Britain, America, or some such country to secure the raw materials necessary and, in the majority of the cases, to get the machinery to establish industries here. Therefore, I think, unless we can tie up industries with agriculture and with fisheries, they will not have a reasonable chance of success, and they will not provide the security in industry which not alone the employer but in particular the worker wants as well.

Why we do not engage in the canning and processing of our agricultural products to a greater extent than we are I cannot understand. It is true we are doing this, but only to a very small degree, and we must exploit the agricultural industry which we have to a greater extent in that regard. In my opinion, the Minister should not work in, let us say, the vacuum of the Department of Industry and Commerce. There should be close connection between his Department and the two Departments I have mentioned, that of Fisheries and Agriculture, and I suppose one could include Forestry as well.

It was Deputy Russell, I think, who mentioned co-operation between what he described as capital and labour. By and large in this country, there is good co-operation between employer and employee. It is true to say that there may be disputes from time to time about wages and conditions of employment, but, by and large, as compared with other countries, it can be said that co-operation does exist between capital and labour. With regard to the relationship between employer and employee, the employers should remember this: It is not sufficient to say to the worker "out of 12 months, you got nine months' employment, or ten or 11 months." What the Irish worker wants is what every worker in the world wants, that is security in his job.

Hear, hear!

To the Irish worker, a job is not a job, unless it gives him work for 12 months each year. Every professional man would feel it if he were paid for only ten or 11 months out of each 12 months, and he would know the effect of the decrease in his monthly salary. The employer should remember that if there is a slackness, and it is not a severe slackness, the last thought he should entertain in his mind is the laying off of staff.

Hear, hear!

At the present time, if an employer who experiences a slackness in business—not a severe slackness—lays off ten men, not alone will he himself lose those ten men, because they will not be available for him when he wants them back, but the country will lose them as well. It is relatively cheap for a man to book his passage for the 54 miles trip from Rosslare Harbour across to Britain, or from the North Wall, and such an employer who lays off men like that would be doing wrong both to himself and his country, particularly if the men laid off should be fitters, moulders, carpenters or men with skill, or men who have a good trade. I have seen it happen in certain parts of the country where, during a slight slackness, for the sake of saving money, employers laid men and women off for two or three weeks at a time, and I have seen some shopkeepers attempt it.

In certain parts of the country, I have seen a move by shopkeepers to cut down their staffs by half, on the plea that half the time the shop assistants were doing nothing. We know that may be a fact on Monday mornings or Tuesday afternoons because shops have their own peculiar days when there is no business, but on Fridays and Saturdays there is a rush and shopkeepers need all the assistants they can get at those times. If shop assistants are laid off like that, and if they have to emigrate, it will come to a stage when employers will not be able to find the staffs they want to cope with the rush periods in their business.

The same can be said in regard to the farming community. I do not want to encroach on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, but it seems to me that we are arriving at a situation in which we will not have enough agricultural labourers, by reason of the fact that these workers will refuse to work on a month to month basis, a week to week basis and as happens at the present time in a lot of cases, on a day to day basis.

I should like to make a few comments about what is described as our second biggest industry, the tourist industry. I read some figures recently upon which the Minister for Industry and Commerce did not comment. These figures show hotel bill receipts for the nine months January to September for the year 1957 and the year 1956, and there is a drop in 1957, compared with 1956, of something like £150,000. There may be various reasons for that. We may not have had as good weather in 1957 as we had in 1956, but what annoys me is that while the hotel bill receipts from the United States and Canada increased by about £50,000, the hotel bill receipts from Great Britain decreased by a very considerable amount. I wonder what is the reason for that.

In my opinion, Bord Fáilte, those responsible for the tourist industry, are paying far too much attention to the American tourist, and are paying far too much to attract him here. I may have said this on last year's Estimate, but I do not mind repeating it. We should pay much more attention to attracting the British tourist, and in particular the British workingman, who spends much more money than the tourist from any other country in the world. The Minister should inform An Bord Fáilte that much more attention should be given to attracting to this country the British workingman and his family, who, as all of us know, spends a considerable amount of money and is a person who goes out to enjoy himself. I do not want to criticise the American tourist, but, without particularising or going into detail, it would be right to say that the British tourist spends much more money.

I wonder to what extent the propaganda in British newspapers was responsible for the drop in hotel receipts last year in respect of British tourists. There was what could be described as a Border situation at that time, but it was greatly exaggerated by the newspapers in the Six Counties and in Great Britain, to the extent that many people sheered off from coming to this country for holidays last year. This part of the country was represented as being dangerous. From some of the articles written in some British newspapers, one would imagine that as soon as a British visitor landed here his life was in danger. I do not suggest that the Minister could do anything or should do anything to counteract that sort of thing but it was in part responsible for the drop in hotel receipts from British tourists.

The Minister knows by now my opinion of the Tóstal. It was the Minister's baby, but it was an ill-conceived child. The Minister is a very courageous man but his experience at the G.P.O. when he opened the Tóstal this spring should teach him that the Tóstal is pure waste of money. I do not suggest that there is a considerable amount of money expended on the Tóstal celebrations, but the amount that is spent does not give any return. Even the people of Dublin have not shown any interest in the Tóstal celebrations.

The Minister's intentions were good when he initiated the Tóstal many years ago, but I do not think that there has been a good return. In many parts of the country, the Tóstal celebrations have developed into Anglicised feiseanna where the locals amuse themselves and do not expect to attract tourists. I have experience of it in certain parts of the country. The locals do quite a good job, put on quite a good show but not a show designed to attract tourists. They amuse themselves. Sometimes they make a profit; sometimes they incur a loss. From the point of view of local amusement the Tóstal is all right, but, from the point of view of attracting tourists, it just does not do it.

The Tóstal celebrations in Dublin, such as the Tattoo and other shows in Croke Park, were magnificent, but they were not designed to attract tourists. I would support Deputy Russell in his plea that, if the Tóstal is to be continued, the form should be drastically changed. There should be concentration on the currach races in Galway for one week; there should be concentration on the Wexford Festival for whatever period it is on and there should be concentration on the Cork Choral Festival and on a drama festival in the City of Dublin.

It amuses me when I hear from Tóstal organisers that they have lined up 871 attractions. Ninety-five per cent. of those attractions would be there, if there were no Bord Fáilte and no Tóstal. They have tried to bring everything under the umbrella of the Tóstal—a carnival, a marbles match, an aeríocht, a football match, a swimming race. Those who were responsible for organising the Tóstal took all these things unto themselves and regarded them as their own. That sort of thing merely brought the Tóstal into disrepute. I think the Minister did say that there was a committee examining the position. We hope that by this time next year there will be a new form of tourist attraction and that the money which is now spent will be put to better use for the encouragement of tourists.

The Minister spoke about trade loans. I have asked about this matter privately many times in the Department and I should like now to ask the Minister in the House, without mentioning the name of a particular firm, whether or not a decision has been reached. I do not know whether they deserve a trade loan or not. All I should like from the Minister is a decision because workers in the particular firm have been sacked for want of a decision. It is important that the firm should know where it is going. I am not trying to tell the Minister that they should get this trade loan. All I am telling the Minister is that he or his Department or the Department of Finance should make up their minds and say "yes" or "no". I am sure the Minister and his Secretary know very well the firm to which I refer.

In conjunction with many other Deputies, I should like to congratulate the Minister on his encouraging and realistic statement in introducing the Estimate. From an industrial point of view, Ireland is a relatively poor country. It is poor in national wealth and mineral resources generally. Capital for industry is difficult to get. The Government is competing with industry for capital to pursue its own capital development programme. Government loans are gilt-edged. They pay a certain specified interest and the full amount of the stock at the end of a specified period. Unfortunately, in this country and in many countries in Western Europe, Governments have had to increase their interest rates because of inflation, with the result that it has become more difficult to get money for industry.

It is understandable that the Government must raise money for its capital development programme, such as the development of roads, housing, water and sewage schemes, shipping, aviation and so on, most of which are vitally necessary for the success of our main industry, agriculture, and to a large extent, also for the success of our second greatest money-earner, tourism. Foreign investors will rarely invest money in that type of development.

It takes a considerable capital investment to secure the employment of one man in industry. If foreign capital could be attracted to this country for investment in industry, the saving to our own capital resources would be tremendous. New industries could be developed by subsidiary units of old and well-established industries that cater for the world market. The tax-free profits derived from exports and the improvement of the facilities available to Irish industrial concerns to secure capital for expansion is injecting new life into many industries and must attract American and British industrialists if only to enable them to compete in the European Free Trade Area or Common Market when it is in operation. It is essential, however, that this tax-free concession should be continued on a long term basis and I was glad to note in the statement of the Minister for Finance that it is being extended to a ten year period.

Many industrialists are sceptical of this type of policy because they feel it may be of short duration. It is understandable that sudden changes in industrial policy are damaging, and in fact, I feel that one reason why industrialists and industrial workers alike are anxious to see a Fianna Fáil Government in power is that they know where they stand and do not feel that there will be radical changes with every wind that blows. With regard to factories with 100 per cent. export, I was sceptical as to whether these concerns could be a success or not. I have had contact with some of these firms during the past year and I have more or less changed my opinion in that regard. I have not much experience of industrial procedure and the one thing that worried me was that a temporary loss of place on the world market could cause very considerable unemployment.

The essentials for successful industry are good management, skilled and semi-skilled labour, the know-how, good plant and good salesmanship. Over the past 30 years, we have made very great strides in acquiring these essentials, but we still have very considerable headway to make. It is clear that we can learn a lot from countries which have a long industrial tradition behind them. I am glad to note that in my own constituency many of the industries are making strenuous efforts to acquire all that is vitally necessary to progressive industrial development.

The Government is giving, and I feel it will continue to give, all the necessary help to advance efficiency in all branches of industry. It takes a long tradition to effect good management, to acquire know-how and to improve salesmanship to a degree which is necessary in competing in the industrial world to-day. In some of our industries, we have that tradition and in some of them, through no fault of their own, we have not got it. The workers in our industrial concerns have attained a very high standard of skill and efficiency in the short period in which we have been endeavouring to develop our industrial arm.

I was very pleased that the Minister gave due consideration to our native industries when introducing the Industrial Development (Encouragement of External Investment) Bill, 1957. In my constituency, as I said, we have many industries which are constantly working to develop and improve themselves. They are spending very considerable sums of money on the expansion of premises, on acquiring know-how by sending some of their workers to other countries where they can get this very necessary asset, by improving salesmanship, and on making and extending a place on the export market. It would be calamitous if we were to allow foreign combines to come in here and undersell our native industries for a time, with the object of forcing them out of business and leaving these combines with a monopoly. Too keen competition in a limited market will force up overheads, with a resultant loss in the quality of goods and an inability to keep abreast of modern designs.

I would appeal to the Minister to lean over backwards, as it were, to protect our older-established industries. These industries are traditional in this country and it is very difficult for them to conform with the many pieces of legislation passed in this House, and much more difficult for them to comply with them than it is for new industries and new factories. I feel that if they present their case to the Minister, he will give them a sympathetic hearing.

I have no doubt that appeals are made on this Estimate year after year to support and to buy Irish goods. I cannot understand why, in this day and age, it should be necessary to make such appeals because of the extent of our industrial development. When we come to consider the trade returns, however, we can see that it is very obvious that they are still necessary. It is clearly recognised by industrial management and by industrial workers that emigration has a very adverse effect on industry, but what does not appear to be just as generally recognised is that buying foreign goods, in the place of goods which are already being manufactured at home, is driving our people abroad and creating a vicious circle of declining demand. There was a time when it was possible to say that Irish manufactured goods were not up to the standard of foreign goods, but, generally speaking, that day is past. Our goods to-day in most cases are as good as any foreign goods and, as a matter of fact, in some cases they are better than those produced abroad.

Sometimes the matter of price was given as an excuse for not buying home produced goods, but when we take into consideration that there are levies on most of the imported goods to-day that argument will hardly hold good. I made an effort to try to find out why in many cases Irish goods were not bought in preference to foreign goods which did not appear to be as good and I came to the conclusion that it was simply carelessness. In 19 cases out of 20, a person going to buy an article is not interested in where it is made. We have got to shock our people into a realisation of what they are doing. We must endeavour to get them to realise that every time they buy a foreign article, of a type already produced here, they are not only helping to put some more Irishmen on the unemployed list but are, in fact, jeopardising their own jobs as well.

A strong, virile economy here would give a good living to everybody, whereas a weak economy would place every man's job in danger. I realise that paying a little more for an article and taking a little less profit is a difficult matter in these days of financial stress, but when we realise that the whole economy is dependent on this and that the livelihood of every one of us is at stake, I think we will agree we have not very much option in the matter. A combination of industry always striving to turn out a better article more efficiently and a buying public which would insist on buying Irish goods, not only on St. Patrick's Day but all the year round, would curb unemployment and emigration more quickly than any other system.

I should like to take this opportunity of thanking the Minister for his initiative and foresight in establishing the Dundalk Engineering Works. I always found it difficult to reconcile the peculiar lack of interest of the Coalition, when in power, in this very grave and serious problem and their sudden awakening of interest when we took office in March, 1957. Perhaps I should give a short account of what led up to the situation in Dundalk. In November, 1955, Lord Glentoran, Minister of Commerce in the Six Counties, announced that it was the decided policy of the Six County Government to close down practically all the railway lines in the Six County area, excluding the line from Belfast to Derry via Coleraine, which was not the property of the G.N.R., and a few short branch lines in the vicinity of Belfast.

Immediately this announcement was made, it became clear to everybody, and particularly to the workers in the Dundalk locomotive works, that this would have very serious repercussions on the employment in those works because of the fact that the works catered for the G.N. lines in the Six Counties as well as the Twenty-Six Counties. It also became clear that certain G.N. lines in the Twenty-Six Counties, which had been losing heavily prior to that date, would be put in an almost untenable position when the Six County branch lines feeding them closed.

The ultimate result was that a very large number of men in the G.N.R. works were faced with unemployment within the number of years specified by Lord Glentoran, something over two years. That was obvious from November, 1955. It would be only natural to expect that the Coalition should have made some effort to try to right the position. In fact, they did nothing except possibly the usual procedure of waiting for something to turn up; and nothing did turn up during the remaining one and a half years they were in office.

That was the situation we faced in 1957. Strangely enough, after March, 1957, the Fine Gael Party in particular, which had been rather mute during that year and a half, suddenly became very active. We had motions in connection with the Great Northern Railway at the Louth County Council, at the Dundalk Urban Council, in the Seanad and so on. These all expressed concern about the problem of the works, a problem which they clearly considered insoluble because when the present Minister took office, there was not a single plan on his desk from the Coalition time to deal with it. We had a campaign of rumour, rumour, rumour all over the place in Dundalk. The people of Dundalk, already worried to death about future unemployment and understandably so, were driven almost frantic by it. Hundreds were to be sacked on a certain date. When that date came and nobody was sacked, a new date was specified.

I had one serious worry during this time. I did not mind what was being said about myself or about the Government, but what worried me was that skilled men in the Dundalk works would, under the influence of this campaign, give way to despair and leave the country. If that had happened, there would be no Dundalk Engineering Works to-day because there would be no skilled men left. I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating the trade unions concerned, particularly the body which represented the workers at various meetings I attended. It would be impossible to meet a more responsible body of men.

During that period, it was even inferred that if the Coalition had remained in office, the Bundoran line would have been kept open. It was stated by one prominent Fine Gael supporter that if the Coalition had remained in office, they would have kept the lines open in the Six Counties as well by the use of subsidy. When you consider the financial condition of the country when we took over, that would indeed have been a wonderful achievement. When the people of Dundalk got over their initial anxiety, they realised the matter was in good hands and nobody paid any heed to these rumours. Deputy McGilligan spoke here about brutal letters in a very obvious attempt to intensify the anxiety being felt in Dundalk. I should like to say that the so-called brutal letter writer has contributed far much more to the peace of mind of the citizens of Dundalk by successfully endeavouring to get an industry to replace the G.N.R. works than Deputy McGilligan has done. Nobody pretends that this problem is solved. It is a problem of the first magnitude, but it has been tackled in the right manner by the Government and I have no doubt that it will be successfully overcome.

I want to refer now to the Free Trade Area. Whether this area will become a reality is still uncertain. Our main difficulty at the moment is concerned with the possible effect on our economy of the withdrawal of protection against imports of manufactured goods. The gradual character of this proposed withdrawal should be stressed and also the fact that the problems of underdeveloped countries are recognised and given due consideration. In some cases such countries, at the beginning at least, will be allowed the benefits without having to shoulder the obligations.

We have industries here which, although protected, do not need that protection. We have industries operating at less than maximum efficiency because they can make a profit on present methods. No doubt they could improve their methods. We have industries which, because they rely on the home market, need protection since the home market is not wide enough to absorb all their products. Irish industry, if the occasion demands, will face up to this problem and will emerge successful. We already have industries which are competing successfully abroad. There will, of course, be difficulty for some. The overall picture should be one in which the expansion of industries able to compete will do much more than absorb any possible unemployment which would result from industries that might fail.

With regard to the Free Trade Area, I have been wondering for some time whether we will need to make a change in the Undeveloped Areas Act. I concede that it was necessary to give an added incentive to some industries to go into these areas, but the Minister should be particularly careful about the type of industry allowed in, because even a fraction of a penny of an increase in the cost of the finished article for export could mean that the commodity would lose its place on the foreign market. For that reason, serious consideration should be given to every project coming before the Department before a decision is taken as to where the industry should be located. It would be nonsense to set up an industry in an area when the common sense of the officials in the Department shows them clearly that such an industry could not possibly succeed in that area. I hope I am not adopting a selfish attitude in this matter.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his decision to restore the 50 per cent. subsidy for rural electrification. In conjunction with the other Deputies who have spoken on this matter, I would ask the Minister to re-examine the position with regard to the special charge system. It seems to me rather odd that because a very small area was declared uneconomic, very often in cases where the E.S.B. lines actually transversed the area, the people in that area should now be asked to pay a special charge for being connected. I am glad to note from the Minister's statement that there is an increase in the consumption of electricity. Demand is generally a barometer of national progress.

I have already spoken on the subject of buying Irish goods and the need for patriotism in that regard. I should like again to appeal for patriotism on the part of those who are wealthy. I would ask them to forgo the 1 per cent. or 2 per cent. more they might get by investing their money abroad and to invest that money at home and bring to their own town or village, even though the investment may mean a slight sacrifice on their part, an industry which will help to provide employment for the unemployed. As Drummond said many years ago; "Property has its duties as well as its rights." We can no longer live in self-contained classes and the happiness a man will get by helping to provide work for his unemployed neighbours will be much greater than any joy he may get from having thousands lying idle in a bank. In general, we pin our faith to private enterprise. It would be wise for those who have most to gain by that policy to ensure that, as a system, private enterprise does not fail. If it does not succeed in a reasonably short time in solving to a large extent our unemployment and emigration problems, then there is no doubt that it will have failed.

Is the Deputy not going to finish that sentence?

What sentence?

The Deputy broke off with the word "will".

I said it will have failed. If a worthwhile industry is lost to a town because local capital is not forthcoming, even though the money is there, and as a result unemployed fathers are left without work and forced to emigrate, then the moral responsibility will rest on those who failed in their duty. There are people who have taken very considerable risks over the past 30 years to establish and to improve our industrial arm. There are many who have not, and it is to those I appeal now. One bright sign I have noticed over the past year is the spirit of co-operation which is evident, particularly in my own constituency, with regard to the establishment of new industries. As a nation, we have now reached adult stature and we are no longer depending entirely on Government for what we want; rather, we are going out to fend for ourselves. Chambers of commerce and trades councils in my constituency are coming together and are showing, as I said before, commendable enterprise in endeavouring to get new industries. The Government are giving a lead. I know that they will give every help possible and, if we continue to put our backs into the work and continue along the lines of co-operation, we cannot fail.

There is a queer, unctuous quality about the orthodoxy that Deputy Faulkner preaches. I think he must have congratulated the Minister for Industry and Commerce five times. He expressed his joy at the Minister's speech not less than seven times. He declared that all was well in this happy world he now inhabits, all the problems were on the road to resolution, dawns were breaking and new eras dawning until I began to wonder did he believe it all? Then it began to occur to me that, remembering some of the unorthodoxy that I have heard recently from Fianna Fáil Benches, a different tune might attract attention from the Minister, who is now returning to the House, and if there are any future vacancies in the junior Ministries, a bell that strikes with the main orchestra will be more welcome than the cracked note of discord. I would appeal to Deputy Faulkner, for the sake of us all, to forgo sometimes all this ghastly gospel of assent. If he wants to congratulate the Minister so obsequiously, it might be easier on the rest of us if he would write him a letter. I am sure the Minister would read it, and act accordingly.

Deputy Russell spoke about the atmosphere of disillusionment abroad in the country. I think there is, but if there is, it is very largely the responsibility of the Fianna Fáil Party which has spent so much of its time crying "stinking fish" about its own country. Remember the whoops of joy from the Fianna Fáil Party if a national loan did not fully fill. It was proclaimed that this was evidence of the impending bankruptcy of the Irish nation.

That does not seem to have any connection with the Estimate.

It has a connection with the disillusionment referred to by Deputy Russell and I propose to comment upon it. If there is disillusionment which operates to promote emigration, and which deters people from embarking upon enterprises on which they would otherwise cheerfully venture, can it be dissociated from the campaign operated by the Fianna Fáil Party to suggest the economic foundations of this State were in jeopardy? Can it be denied that the Party which remained silent when a New Zealand loan filled only to 10 per cent. in the London money market, rejoiced and gloried in the fact that underwriters had to subscribe £1¾ million to a £20,000,000 loan floated in this country because the rate of interest was somewhat lower than the public money market at that time expected? There is your source of disillusionment. If a national Party sink to the level of denigrating their own country, they certainly promote disillusionment amongst young people. They certainly do create what Deputy Russell referred to, a belief amongst the young people that there is no future here and that Ireland is a place to get out of.

I frequently advised those in this House and outside, who told their tale of woe, to look around the world. I asked: "When all is said and done where is there a better country to live in than our own?" Those who thought they could find a paradise in the United States and Canada are finding that the realisation of their dreams is far different from the dreams which begot their adventure. Those who enjoy the benefits we have enjoyed since we got our freedom, and which we do to-day enjoy, might with advantage read of the murder of the Prime Minister of Hungary and his colleagues which is now accepted as part of the norm in Eastern Europe.

The Deputy is getting away from the Estimate for Industry and Commerce.

If disillusionment is assigned as the cause of emigration, let us deal with the question of disillusionment. If there is responsibility, I fix responsibility on the Minister for Industry and Commerce, first, for crying "stinking fish" about his own country and not directing the attention of the young people to the fact that in all the circumstances this is a good country to live in and has great advantages. Secondly, I fix responsibility upon him because he misled our people. He told our people that if he were afforded the chance he would implement a plan he had prepared for the investment of £100,000,000 designed to secure 5,000 new jobs every year.

The Minister for Lands, Deputy Childers, has perennially stated, since that statement was originally made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, that that plan had turned blue, and that meant he never meant it. It was only a blueprint but the Tánaiste did not say that either on the occasion when he got the Irish Press to publish it as a supplement or when he was speaking in Graiguecullen, Carlow, on the 11th November, 1956, when he was questioned about it and when he said that “he had published on behalf of Fianna Fáil proposals for a full employment policy designed to secure that in five years capital investment would be extended until jobs were available to every boy and girl leaving school as well as absorbing those unemployed at present. “These proposals still stand'.”

These are categorical words. Are Deputies surprised that there should be disillusionment when specific undertakings of that kind are given and repeated by the Deputy Prime Minister of the country and uttered in a form calculated to suggest that the then Government is failing in its duty in not undertaking that which Deputy Lemass was prepared to undertake if the people would but vote him into office? Is it any wonder people turn with disgust from the democratic institutions of their own country when they think of their votes having been fraudulently suborned by a man who has the standing of Deputy Prime Minister and who has been for 20 years a Minister of State with the fullest understanding of the significance of the words he uses and the meaning of the undertakings he has given?

There are some matters in the Minister's speech to which I wish to refer before turning to the special matters which I mentioned. The Minister, as reported at column 1518, Volume 168, of the Official Debates of the 11th June, 1958, said:—

"The special measures taken in 1957 included the removal of special import levies on a number of commodities, and the granting of licences for the importation, free of special import levy, of materials intended for a process of manufacture or for the equipment of an industrial undertaking; the removal of restrictions on hire-purchase transactions; and the provision of tax reliefs for industry, including an extension of the tax concessions in respect of profits derived from industrial exports."

In regard to the removal of the import levies, many of them have been reimposed in the form of permanent taxes but they have carried with them the granting of licences for imports under special circumstances. With regard to the removal of restrictions on hire-purchase transactions, I wonder if the Minister has begun to awaken to the significance of the trade returns for the first five months of this year? He is now bereft of the relatively flexible instrument of special levies to discourage imports. If the trade pattern continues for the rest of this year on the lines on which it has been proceeding in the first five months, there will be very grave danger of a serious adverse trade balance at the end of the year, involving an adverse balance in our balance of payments. What are we to do then? Is it the intention to introduce physical control?

Poor Deputy Faulkner was breaking his heart because there were no public meetings held in 1955 to declare our intention in respect of events which were likely to transpire in regard to the Dundalk Works, but on that it must be said that none of the men lost their jobs—and that is what really matters. This is 1958 and the trade returns are going badly, according to the returns for the first five months of this year. What does the Minister plan to do if they continue on those lines? He ought to tell us what steps he will take in the course of this year, if he finds that we are importing more than we can afford to pay for.

At column 1526 of the same Volume, the Minister said:—

"By March, 1958, the last of the four small generating stations to burn hand-won turf was commissioned at Gweedore, County Donegal. These stations will provide a market for surplus hand-won turf available in the main turf-producing areas of Counties Donegal, Galway, Clare and Kerry."

The Minister is extremely sensitive about certain matters when they are raised in this House; but I want to draw his attention to this point.

A station has been set up in West Donegal, nominally to provide for the surplus production of hand-won turf. Now is the time to direct the Minister's attention to this fact, that it will not look well if the bulk of this station's fuel requirements are ultimately supplied by a private company consisting of two Government appointees to public boards and a Minister of the Government, who propose to produce machine-won turf in that area. If there is anything on those lines proceeding, now is the time for the Minister to say to his colleagues and to his two appointees on public boards: "A company so constituted as yours could not be considered; and if you want your company to engage in this activity, you gentlemen ought to resign; or as long as you remain members of public boards or of the Government, you should pass the management over to some other trusted persons who will carry it on, at least while you are in public employment." If there are ructions about this hereafter, at least the Minister cannot complain that he was not forewarned of the kind of danger that manifests itself on the horizon.

At column 1528, the Minister said:—

"There is nothing exceptional to report regarding trade agreements except the difficulties experienced in reaching agreement for the re-entry of Irish cattle and meat into Germany. For that reason, the exchange of notes relating to quotas for non-liberalised goods under the trade agreement with Germany was delayed and has only recently been effected."

The Minister does not tell us what the trade agreement provides. I used to be under strong pressure, when I was Minister for Agriculture, to "get tough" with Germany and I was told that I was gravely remiss in my duty, for not putting the pistol to the Germans' head. I understand my successor proceeded to do just that. I should like to be told the result of the new policy. I cannot find any detailed description of the trade agreement or any comparison with the situation that obtained before this new trade agreement was initialled—but, so far as I know, the representations made by us have not been successful and the net result is that we are buying £2 worth from Germany for every £1 worth that Germany buys from us.

I suspect that, when it came down to the tin tacks of telling the Germans -as I think they could be told—"That must stop; if you are not prepared to buy more from us, we will buy less from you," then the time came when the Minister was told that the bulk of our imports from Germany were motor cars, which constituted the assembly business in various centres in this country, and that we were not in a position to say any such thing to the German Government. The Minister might with advantage return to that matter, certainly between now and the occasion for renewing this trade agreement; and, if necessary, facing whatever has to be faced in order to bring Germany—as well as every other country—to a realisation of the fact that there ought to be some attempt made on their part, if we are buying £6,000,000 worth from them, to stretch a point in order to bring their purchases from us into some kind of balance on the account.

At column 1548, the Minister said:—

"I mentioned, however, in the course of the Budget debate that the Government has decided to provide further financial facilities to encourage the expansion of hotel facilities in tourist areas."

I should like to put this point before the Minister, that there is one thing blocking the development of hotel facilities on the scale we want, and that is the general belief in the minds of hotel keepers throughout the country that, if they carry out improvements, their rateable valuation will promptly be raised. I am finding it extremely difficult to get clear in my mind what the present position is. Do they enjoy seven years' exemption?

I do not think that they know that, strange as it may seem. I suggest to the Minister that any of us who have had the experience of being in office have learned painfully that we become so familiar, when in office, with the fundamental provisions of the various schemes we promote, that we entirely forget how difficult it is to get the public to appreciate their nature.

If you asked the bulk of the hotel proprietors in rural Ireland to-day why they do not take more advantage of the facilities available for improving hotels, half of them would say:"I do not want the Commissioners of Valuation to be down in the morning; if I speculate my own money to increase my accommodation, it may or may not fill, but I will get an increase in valuation clapped on my back whether it fills or not; and it is bad enough to take the risk of having rooms empty, but it is quite intolerable if, on top of that, I have to bear the burden of increased valuation." I believe the Minister could with advantage invite An Bord Fáilte to emphasise the position in regard to freedom from any increased valuation for a seven-year period. Indeed, the period might be made longer, where improvements are carried out in order to provide tourist facilities.

I would ask the Minister whether he can do anything about a specific problem relating to County Monaghan, in regard to which I accompanied a deputation to his Parliamentary Secretary. A very interesting deputation it was. I do not think it would be any breach of confidence if I referred to the proceedings here. Deputy Mooney and I accompanied the deputation from Clones. The purpose of our visit was to see what could be done for Clones. I am going to ask that particular question myself in a moment. Our main preoccupation was the hope that we might get Clones scheduled under the Undeveloped Areas Act. We all went in and were received by the Parliamentary Secretary, who was extremely courteous, as he always is. The proceedings began by the Parliamentary Secretary saying: "Well, gentlemen, I am glad to see you, but I have to tell you at once that there is no prospect whatever of anything being done for you under the Undeveloped Areas Act." We brought the proceedings alive again as best we could, for decency's sake, as it would not seem to be expedient to get up and leave the room, but I may say that it was not very encouraging.

I want to put this point to the Minister in regard to West Cavan. Years ago, West Cavan was brought into the "congested areas" under the Congested Areas Act, owing to its special circumstances. It was added to the congested areas long after the original Congested Areas Act was passed. The condition of Clones is perfectly desperate. It is situated in a peninsula which projects into the Six Counties. It was bad enough when they had nothing but a border to contend with, but practically every road out of the town of Clones is now cut, physically cut, by the Northern Ireland authorities, and the town is virtually isolated and its whole hinterland completely cut off. If that were not bad enough, on top of it has come the closing down of the railway and the removal of a considerable number of railway personnel who worked in Clones as a centre. I do not believe there is another town in Ireland or in Monaghan which can make the same case for some special consideration as the town of Clones.

I undertook that special consideration—and I meant special consideration—would be given to any proposition for Clones but not under the Undeveloped Areas Act; I said, if necessary, under special Acts.

I am not asking the Minister to make any special concession to me. I do not suppose I am more anxious about Clones than is Deputy Rooney, but what I would ask the Minister is to make it a bit more explicit that he is seriously concerned for the peculiar conditions in Clones and appreciative of the fact that the cutting of the roads has made the problem very acute, firstly, through the diminution of business, and secondly, because it makes it very hard to get anybody to establish an industry in a town which appears to be virtually cut off. I think with those very peculiar conditions obtaining some modicum of initiative should be taken by the Minister to see if anything could be done to meet these special circumstances.

I have been 20 years a member for Monaghan and I do not think I have ever made a special claim in Dáil Éireann for Clones before, because, although I felt its difficulties were very substantial as a result of the Border, there were other towns which were hit by the Border also. Clones is now virtually cut off except for one road and the situation has become so extremely difficult that I feel it is right that the Government should be asked to take the initiative to give the town some help towards employing its people. That is all they want. I am not by any means asking for relief grants or anything of that kind, but rather something that will employ the people who will otherwise be driven out of the district in circumstances which would make it highly unlikely they would ever be able to come back.

There is another matter about which I want to ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce. In the past ten years, from 1947 to 1957, we have planted 90,000 acres of forest and that has been added to the existing acreage, That is a very substantial national asset but it has cost a pile of money. Those of us who have consistently advocated forestry have always made the case that, although we might have to wait a long time for a return on the money expended, it would ultimately come and it would begin to come as the thinnings from the forests became available and came in greater and greater flood as lumber matured. For the past five or six or seven years, thinnings are coming from these forests in considerable volume and a certain modicum of lumber. The astonishing fact is—and I relate this to County Monaghan—where lumber, that is, matured trees, was advertised for sale and the sale was to be by tender, the Forestry Section got one tender which was approximately, I think, 30 or 40 per cent. higher than the other tenders, but they were not allowed to accept it because the Minister for Industry and Commerce said he would not allow timber to be exported, unless it had been subjected to some manufacturing process.

That is a residue of the situation that obtained during the war when there may have been an absolute shortage of lumber, but there is now an abundance of lumber, and surely the sensible thing to do is to let our lumber from our own forests be sold to the highest bidder and let the domestic processer of lumber who cannot buy Irish lumber import foreign lumber as an alternative. Surely it is quite wrong to use the vast investment we have made over the past 20 or 30 years in forestry for the purpose of subsidising certain limited, circumscribed industries thereby prohibiting the Forestry Section access to foreign purchasers who would be prepared to pay them substantially more than existing domestic consumers are prepared to give.

If that policy continues, it will react disastrously on the whole economic picture of forestry here, because it will be represented at some future date that the investment in forestry was misconceived and that, in fact, we are losing money, while the real truth will be that if we permit the Forestry Section to sell the output to the best advantage, forestry would be a remunerative occupation. If the present policy continues, a very strong argument will some day be made to prove that forestry is all cod.

I think I have leaned over backwards —perhaps too far back—in trying not to cause Ministers embarrassment by asking them questions on the eve of their departure for negotiations in London, but I think they are going very far in making an announcement that they have signed an agreement in London but that nobody can be told what the agreement contained, even——

That was not our wish.

Well, the Minister went on himself, when asked at the Press conference, to say it would be noted that it was concluded on Friday, June 13. That was not actually calculated to lift the hearts of the Irish creamery industry. I appreciate one cannot be too critical of every word a Minister speaks, particularly at a Press conference, although I cannot claim to have received that consideration. Usually, I found the London Correspondent of the Irish Press—the Lord have mercy on him: I believe he died in the past few days—to be the most difficult correspondent I had to handle whenever I was in London, but that was on instructions from Burgh Quay. I do not criticise the Minister for any casual word he spoke in a Press interview, but I think the British Board of Trade should be told that it is an impossible situation to keep facts of that kind back——

It is only a matter of a few days.

It certainly creates a difficulty, more particularly when the Minister's Estimate is before the House and I would like to comment on it but I do not know what the result of the negotiations is. All I do know is that the 1948 Agreement, which I negotiated with the British Ministers of Food and Agriculture, specifically states that Great Britain is to take from this country 20,000 tons of butter per annum and any additional quantities we are in a position to offer. That was not only the letter but the spirit of the agreement and if there is any departure from it, it will come with a great shock to me. I would regard a departure from it by the British Government as a repudiation of their pledged word, on the foot of which they have enjoyed not insignificant advantages during the past ten years. But there is no possibility of making any comment of an effective character at this time because we do not know the result of the negotiations that have taken place.

There are some specific matters to which I wish to refer. I am sorry Deputy Corish is not here. There is only one thing I regret doing as a Minister and that is giving my consent to the experimental imposition of duties on agricultural machinery. I think that was wrong. However, it was given subject to certain considerations one of which was that a committee should be set up representative of the National Farmers' Association and of the manufacturers of agriculture machinery and that they, together, would make certain experimental checks on the efficiency and design of machinery made available by the Irish producer and in due course report to the Ministers for Industry and Commerce and Agriculture, that that report would be made available to both Parties and, in the light of that report, that the whole matter would be reconsidered and any representations that either the manufacturers or the National Farmers' Association had to make would be received with very careful and sympathetic consideration when a final decision was being made on the permanence of existing protection or on the desirability of terminating it.

I do not think I should have gone even as far as to consent to that but I did. I am now concerned that the undertaking I gave, and that Deputy Norton as Minister for Industry and Commerce gave, should be fulfilled because I believe it to be binding on our successors and it was given at a conference at which the Taoiseach presided.

So far as I can find out, no copy of that report has been made available to either Party—to the National Farmers' Association or to the machinery manufacturers. I do not know if such a report has ever been formulated or what has become of that transaction. I specifically recall it to the Minister's mind and specifically state that, in my judgement, an undertaking was given in the presence of the then Taoiseach to both these bodies which is binding in the letter and spirit on our successors in office. I should be grateful if the Minister could arrange for the redemption of that undertaking.

I cannot help hearing with some emotion the flattering references of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to the Industrial Development Authority and the confidence with which he commits into its care the delicate work of inviting foreign capital for investment in this country. I think it is for the good of his soul that I should remind him to-day of the speech he made on the Second Reading of the Bill which established that Industrial Development Authority. It is for the good of his soul that I should remind him and his colleagues of that speech. He was then in these benches. He announced his unalterable intention of repealing the Act and abolishing the Industrial Development Authority the day after he got back into office. That is a form of political argument which people ought to be very circumspect about applying.

So long as we have free parliamentary institutions in this country it is always possible for the Opposition gravely to abridge the prospects of the success of any enterprise the Government of the day undertakes if they categorically announce that, whatever the consequences, they will terminate the experiment when they get back to office. As the Minister now knows, that announcement by him caused us some additional difficulties in establishing the Industrial Development Authority in this country.

Not in the slightest. The Industrial Development Authority of which the Deputy speaks was not concerned with that work. It got that work for the first time in 1951. It was concerned, up to 1951, with issuing licences.

The irresponsible language used by the Minister created certain difficulties in establishing the Industrial Development Authority. He knows that to be true. He is ashamed of his performance on that occasion. He is embarrassed about being reminded of it. I do not blame him. That is the purpose of this salutary exercise which I am requiring him to undertake now.

We discussed that in 1951—seven years ago.

And we will discuss it now. If the Minister's past sins—he is a fine vigorous fresh young man—are revived every seven years it will make him a better, a more cautious and an easier man to work with in the future. I am giving him a septennial exercise now. He can interpret them as a pilgrimage to the fountain of truth for the good of his soul. In any case, he is sorry.

I hope Deputy Faulkner, who loves him so much, if he ever has the kind of responsibility the present Parliamentary Secretary has, will take note of the present position of the Minister he loves so much and resolve that neither he nor any of the rest of them will do the like. I hope the present Minister will not do it again either.

The last thing I want to do here to-day is to refer to the dilemma I conceive confronting not only the present Minister but everybody else who puts himself the task of developing effective industries in this country. I am a pragmatical man. I do not believe in all the hot air talked about inducements and persuading people to invest their money here, and such blah. I am interested in getting factories built and operated which employ men. I have heard no suggestions of how that will be done or how this dilemma will be resolved. I encountered this repeatedly when I was Minister for Agriculture.

You want to develop an export industry. Your first problem is to command the technological skill to produce a marketable product. Your second problem is to get a market wherein to sell the product when you have it. If you are prepared to pay enough and give a sufficiently attractive contract of employment, you can get technicians but very few private enterprise firms are prepared to pay the prohibitive terms that are requisite to bring in a highly qualified technical person when the future is obscure, because both the highly qualified technical person and the investor know that, having brought in the technical skill, you are faced with the problem that if you set up the sales organisation to dispose effectively the capacity of your enterprise to produce, you must have goods to sell but you cannot have goods to sell unless you have an organisation wherewith to sell them. That delimma has often involved this country in great misfortune.

For instance, I think the hand-made tweed of this country suffered a disastrous reverse because somebody with an excess of enthusiasm rushed out and, to his astonishment, was able to get a very substantial market which he greedily and enthusiastically grabbed. He entered into various contracts which he was wholly unable to perform, because he had not the material wherewith to fill them. Not being versed in the ways of foreign trade, he regarded that as a minor misfortune and proceeded to build up supplies to meet such demand as he had found to exist.

He sallied out the second year by rejoicing in the announcement that he was now in a position to guarantee delivery only to be met by those whom he had called on before and to be told: "Not likely. We have suffered great losses as a result of your failure to deliver last year. We would not touch you now with the other end of a 40-foot pole lest you fail us again. We are not interested in whether your supplies are great or small. Our only concern was that if you sold us a parcel for delivery on a certain date, whether large or small, it would arrive to sample and in the volume you undertook. Our whole production plan had been based on the assumption that the proportions of our raw materials would arrive promptly."

I do not know how we would get out of that. There is only one way in which I can see we can get out of it and that is the way adopted in regard to the factory concerned with the processing of agricultural materials. I there insisted that, far from making it a 100 per cent. Irish enterprise, those who were promoting it should bring outsiders into it and require their potential market to give heavy hostages to fortune to ensure they would take up the output of the factory, not only for the first or second year but for a protracted period, as a result of the magnitude of the investment of their own capital in that enterprise. As a result that factory is pouring its output into the production programme of a vastly larger enterprise in Great Britain, and though its total output is relatively small in comparison with their overall production, they are mighty careful to see that every ounce of it goes into consumption because every pound wasted means they have to bear approximately 50 per cent. of any loss.

The second case is Athy. The product was excellent but it had reached a stage where production was piling up and, while nobody contested its quality, there was no means of marketing it because the channels needed for the principal centres of consumption were all monopolised by those who, though they had less supplies, were in a position to guarantee prompt and accurate delivery dates. However, even though that industry stood on the very verge of dissolution they established contact with one great international organisation with the result that overnight their whole production was taken up, and they are now actually doubling their production.

The same situation has arisen in connection with the Waterford cardboard factory where I imagine the association into which they have succeeded in entering with an American firm will be greatly to their advantage, and to the advantage of our economy as a whole. In all the cases I have referred to, marketing machinery was the principal factor.

People used to say to me: "Why do you not divert the surplus milk into dried milk and into condensed milk? There are countless millions in Africa and the Far East who have no milk and who would be delighted to be supplied with dried milk." It is true that there are, but you try and market Irish milk in those areas and see what happens. Yet, at the same time, I know there are various international organisations marketing vast quantities of milk, organisations which are controlled in Holland, some in Britain and some in Belgium. It would be perfectly simple if we could get any one of those organisations to come in here and process our total surplus milk, and I can say that the total surplus we could produce would be only a drop in the bucket as compared to their entire output and sales. The trouble is that the co-operative industry has the monopoly of milk production in this country but they have no marketing organisation. I often began to wonder whether we should invite some of those international organisations to come in here, process our supplies and direct the product into their marketing machinery.

I do not think that the Minister was honest when speaking at Graiguecullen. I do not think that he believes the scheme he proposed could be extended to the point where jobs would be made available for every boy and girl leaving school and that, as well, it would absorb our present unemployed. That may be by-election pyrotechnics but, when one reaches the Minister's position and age, I do not think one is entitled to engage in that kind of pyrotechnics because we have attached too much importance to them. I believe, however, the Minister is right in saying that is what they want, but there is only one way we can get it, and I think it is a practical way. I am not now on a public platform and not for the first time in this House do I say that we must have a system exclusively based on free enterprise.

It seems to me to be so obvious that there is, as we all know, a great ideological struggle proceeding throughout the world at the present time. The two main protagonists are Russia, representative of Communist philosophy, and the United States, representative of free enterprise and free democratic processes. Russia has given ample evidence of how she can help those who can help her. Mr. Kadar sold his country to Russia and Russia not only murdered thousands of Hungarian people but has now gone further and executed the Prime Minister, the Chief-of-Staff, and such other members of the Hungarian Government as Mr. Kadar wants murdered, so that everybody on that side knows what they are entitled to— everything, including murder on a wholesale scale.

On the other hand, the United States has poured out countless millions of dollars all over the place. Perhaps it is easy to be wise behind the fence and to say it has been misdirected, but I cannot understand why the Minister for Industry and Commerce cannot say to the American Government: "We do not want a penny, we are well able to meet our own cost, we have enough capital to do the essential works that require to be done and, because of that, this country is unique in Europe. If anything we have too many houses, too many hospitals, too many roads and too good roads, and the only thing we lack is jobs to prevent our people leaving the country." Our people are leaving because every other country in the world is anxious to get them; there is no other country faced with that problem. Every other country requires houses, their roads are hopeless, their hospital accommodation is deplorable, and their populations are piling up into a massing flood behind locked gates because no other country requires their surplus people.

We are in a unique position and we can say to the American Government that we do not require any capital to carry out public works. Capital is not our primary problem. Our primary problem is to get employment, and it is simply not possible in our set-up in this modern world in which we live to break into international marketing, to resolve the question of whether the egg should precede the hen or the hen should precede the egg. We have never put it to the United States: "If you want to give a demonstration that free enterprise, free democracy, works and can be made to work whatever temporary difficulties exist, all we ask you to do is assemble a group of your great industrial entrepreneurs in a corporation, to do a service to the cause of freedom, at no cost to themselves—to put a series of branch plants in Ireland, each of which is designed to employ 500 or 1,000 men.”

We should say to them that every facility will be available to them in Ireland, that nobody cares what they do with their profits, that they can take them all back to America, that our only concern is to get employment for men on what must be, from the American point of view, relatively low rates of wages, to keep them in a reasonable standard of comfort in their own country and that they can draw the output of those factories into the massed volume of their total production and market it through their normal channels, wherever it is convenient for them, with every kind of undertaking from our side that any defect in work or any loss involved in training personnel here could be sympathetically considered by way of indemnity by us for any loss sustained in the process of training, and so on.

I do not think that that is an end in itself but I think that it is the beginning of a truly dynamic system of industrial development of the best possible kind because, once you get units of that kind coming here, they will be expanded. I believe that those who will establish them will discover what the wallboard people discovered, that their product is very well made and that this is a very good place to expand in. But, suppose they never expand; suppose they remain the units first established, employing 500 or 1,000 men, I believe there will grow up around them a series of small, privately-operated factories giving employment to ten, 20, 30 or 40 men, producing components for the central branch factory.

I directed the Minister's attention before to the fact that the General Motors Corporation of the United States of America has been conducting a long advertising campaign in the leading papers of the United States of America to demonstrate that where they set up a branch factory in an outlying State it not only provided employment for the citizens of that State but it evoked employment. They published photographs and stories about the numerous small ancillary industries that grew up around their branch plant because, they pointed out, it was very often cheaper for a man employing 20 or 30 of his neighbours to manufacture the mats that they put into the cars or the hubcaps of the wheel or something of that kind and supply that branch plant from the local factory with these components rather than draw them from some central factory 1,000 miles away in Cincinnati or Detroit.

Maybe the United States of America would reply to the Minister that they were not in the least interested in that proposition. If they do, that is all there is about that. I do not think it inconceivable that we might go to Western Germany with a proposal of that kind because we have here a number of people who want work and we have a passionate desire on the part of everybody to make work available for them in their own country.

Sometimes I think we go too far in dreeing our weird about the horrors of emigration. I do not believe that the kind of emigration going on at present involves any serious hardship on the individuals in the vast majority of cases but there is no doubt that there is a certain type of emigration going on from the towns and cities which involves the separation of a husband and father from his family, which is a very great evil and which no effort is too great to correct.

You have the desire on the part of everybody here to help; you have available labour, you have—the plain fact is—a very stable political system, whatever Government is in office, and this is a very pleasant country to live in. If you ask people to establish factories on the Gold Coast or in the remoter parts of Central Africa or Southern Asia, they may inquire what the climate is like or whether children will survive there. Most people who come here, even on holiday, come back a second time and I am told that diplomats prefer this country to almost any post in Europe. There is a good deal that we have to offer of those kinds of intangible advantages although the availability of labour and the desire of all to help are not so insignificant.

That scheme will work if either the United States of America or Western Germany will collaborate with us in operating it. I have heard nobody else put up a scheme which will work except in the dim and distant future when we shall all be dead and, to tell the truth, I am not vitally concerned about what is going to happen here or anywhere else when I am dead. Let posterity worry about that. I am concerned for my neighbours who are now living, trying to rear families, and primarily for them, so that they will not be denied the opportunity of living with their families here at home.

If there is any flaw in that plan, I wish someone would point it out to me. I do not believe there is. It may require some selling, either to the United States of America or Western Germany, but it is quite illusory for the Minister to say to me, as he said on a previous occasion, that this involves State enterprise. That is the very thing I want to avoid. What I want the United States of America or Western Germany to do is to get a group of their own manufacturers to give a demonstration that free enterprise will work.

In case there is any Deputy here who shakes his head and says that this is moonshine, that I have just thought this up, I want to make it clear—and I invite the Minister to correct me if I am wrong—that I believe such a corporation is at present operating from the United States of America in the Middle East and that a group of large business firms, who are frequently called upon by the United States Government either to offer personnel or other facilities in the service of common cause, are in fact locating branch factories in certain countries in the Middle East for the purpose of shoring up the economies of those coun- tries. They must be facing very great difficulties there and very substantial perils. For instance, take firms that have established themselves in the Lebanon. They are now threatened with the development of a fierce civil war all round them and it is difficult to point your finger to any part of the Middle East which is not sitting on a volcano.

The worst that can happen to anybody who sets up his establishment here is that some fellow will go around one night with a bucket of paint and paint "I.R.A." on the gate and if he wants us to go around the following morning with a pot of white paint to bolt it out, we shall do it for him. I understand that that service is extended to the Taoiseach, that whenever anybody plasters up a notice wherever he has to pass by when coming to his office, the following morning the Guards go around and blot it out—a very sensible arrangement. Everybody is happy and nobody is the worse off. That, as far as I know, is the maximum penalty confronting any entrepreneur who comes to this country unless he falls foul of the Minister for External Affairs, in which case he may be forbidden to bathe in Bantry Bay or take part in a regatta there. Apart from that kind of thing, this is a very comfortable country for a civilised entrepreneur to come to, whether from Western Germany or the United States of America.

Personally, I think the United States of America is the best because we have, pace Deputy Ó Britain, the advantage that there is no language difficulty between ourselves and the Americans, seeing that there are people who have not yet become monolingual in Ireland, and that is not an unsubstantial consideration. If you are trying to educate Arabs in how to operate intricate machinery through the medium of Aramaic which neither you nor the Arab understands too well, it must be very difficult but, so far as our population is concerned, if they are addressed in English they will understand and, if they are addressed in Irish, they will at least pretend to understand and will get somebody to interpret it afterwards and there will always be an abundant supply of interpreters available.

These are concrete proposals for the provision of employment for our people in their own country. Before anybody knocks them down, I think he ought to be able to put forward some alternative proposal other than sending. Deputy Briscoe to pirouette round every entertainment that has been operated by the Jewish charities from one end of the United States to the other, an occupation which is quite harmless, quite justifiable and, I believe, most remunerative. I believe he commands a splendid fee for every dinner, dance and dog fight he goes to.

That is uncharitable.

Is he not perfectly right?

It is scarcely relevant to the Vote.

It is certainly a legitimate activity, but it should not be presented to us as a substitute for some concrete effort. I have no criticism of the Deputy, or any Deputy at all, who can get a lecture tour in America and get a good fee for it. Why should he not? There are thousands of people doing it every day and every week from Europe and other parts of the world, but what I do object to is presenting this as a great effort of Fianna Fáil putting their shoulder to the wheel. That is all cod and we know it is all cod. I want something concrete done and I want it to be something of a character which has been examined by this House and approved by Dáil Éireann.

Can anyone propose a better scheme than the one I have now put forward? If he can, let us hear him, but if he cannot, I hope he will save his breath to cool his porridge and spare the House the kind of performance which we had to endure from Deputy Faulkner. I am not a bit depressed about the future of this country, if we can get rid of Fianna Fáil. If we cannot, we will survive them as we did in the past. The only real danger confronting this country is a loss of faith in our capacity to survive the disaster of Fianna Fáil and any other act of God which descends upon us.

I want to say that despite the difficulties which confront this country, at the present time, looking around the world, I have the strong impression that this is not such a bad country after all and if we could get people to act reasonably, which of course is a very considerable reservation, there is no reason why this could not be a very happy and comfortable country for a reasonable population. I think a lot of people make this mistake: they are surprised at young people looking out into the world and wondering why they want to go away. I think it is quite simple. The young people know what all of us know, that is, that it is highly unlikely that, if you stay in Ireland, you will ever be rich. I think a lot of young people have an earnest desire to acquire great riches and believe they have the capacity to get them. They think that if they go to America, or Canada, or Great Britain, there are great avenues open to them to obtain positions of power and wealth which are not available here.

It is all eyewash to be telling them that is not true. They are perfectly right. Of course there are avenues to wealth and material power in these countries which are not available here and never will be. I mentioned recently the case of Mr. Grace of Ballylinan. If he had stayed in Ballylinan, he might have become a big farmer, or he might have become an industrialist under Fianna Fáil; he might even have made all the electric lamps which were required until Philips came in and put him out of business. He would never have become the owner of a shipping line, or of a bank, or of an import and export business and would never have controlled all the great industries which that group controls; but because he went from Ballylinan and fared forth to the Argentine, his descendants are very wealthy people to-day, much wealthier than if he had remained at home.

Those who want that kind of thing are very wise to go, but they should realise that one of the blessings with which they were born was that they were in a country from which they had the right to go if they wanted to, and the freedom to go anywhere in the world that their fancy took them, to exploit to the best advantage the gifts they believed God had given them. There is no other country in the world of which that is true. If they had been born in Holland, France, Belgium, Norway or Sweden, or any other country in the world, they would not have that freedom to fare forth wherever their heart encouraged them to go.

One of the great considerations of being born in Ireland is that they are free to stay or free to go, and I do not believe—with the exception of that small element of married men who are being forced to emigrate from our towns and cities and which we ought to be well able to help from our own resources—that there are any emigrants leaving this country under the spur of economic adversity at the present time. They are going because they want to go into a wider field.

I remember the situation when they really did go through economic emergencies and I know the difference between their going then and their going now. The more I look around me then, the more I think this country is the best place in which to be born and in which to live and to rear a family. The more I look at what is in front of me in this House, the more discouraged I am, and likely to become; but when I realise that every now and again we have the opportunity of a by-election, and that Galway started the disintegration of the deplorable set-up which we have in the Fianna Fáil Government, and that Dublin is likely to give it another check, the more optimistic I am that sooner than any of us think we may be getting going again.

That does not mean that I believe we will solve all our problems overnight, or that I would wish all the women to vote for Fine Gael so that their husbands will be put back into jobs. I would not wish to purchase a single vote in this by-election, or in any by-election, by the dirty, fraudulent misrepresentations engaged in by Fianna Fáil. In spite of all that, I am not without hope that, facing the plain facts of the existing situation, the people will help to remove the present incumbents and that we will all— Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour and the rest—come to realise that Ireland is not such a bad place to live in and that it is well within our own resources—even if we want the help of some of our friends, whom from time to time it is worth cultivating, instead of giving them a kick in the pants whenever we get a chance—to solve any problem which we have in this country.

In this debate, it is only reasonable to expect Deputies to congratulate the Minister when he is able to do something that in itself is in accordance with the general pattern of Government policy, namely, to make a worthwhile contribution to reduce State expenditure. I wish to congratulate the Minister, not because I am a member of the Minister's Party, but simply because the Minister has introduced into this Estimate an overall reduction of £1,700,000. This is achieved notwithstanding the fact that the Minister has been able to make substantial increases under a number of sub-heads.

A reduction of that magnitude is not to be deprecated, particularly when it concerns a Department controlling such a large volume of activity. I am happy that, even though that reduction has been brought about and forms part of the overall reduction in national expenditure, the Minister has been able to arrange the various allocations in such a manner as to give substantial aid in regard to, perhaps, half a dozen very important activities over which he has control.

In the Minister's opening statement, we note that he has found it possible to increase the allocation to the Industrial Development Authority by £20,000 and £50,000 under two sub-heads. He has increased, by £50,000 the grants-in-aid to An Foras Tionscal and has provided £67,000 for technical assistance to executive and business managements and industrialists in general to assist them to bring about improvement in their organisation and business activities. It is significant that the personnel of the Minister's Department has been reduced from 602 to 567. I am sure that that, in itself, has contributed in some measure to the overall reduction the Minister has been able to record in his Estimate.

Quite a number of speakers have contributed to this debate already and it would not be right for me to go over ground already covered, except to refer to some particular point not dealt with. The Minister referred to the general improvement, but in that connection he was very careful not to be over-optimistic as far as industrial production and employment are concerned. He quoted very solid facts— undeniable facts, I think, because they were mostly obtained from official statistics—which every Deputy has to accept. He quoted those facts to prove that there were signs of national recovery. The volume of production of transportable goods industries, based on the 1953 figure of 100, rose from 100.1 to 108.8 during 1957. There was a substantial increase of approximately 7 per cent. since 1956. The Minister was also in a position to show that there was some sizable increase in the number of workers employed in industry during the past year. We are all aware that the increase that can be reported in that connection is not as substantial as we would like.

It is obvious that industry in general has been subject to very difficult times in recent years. I am sure few Deputies will give the reasons for that difficulty with the same voice. There are various opinions. While we all have our own views. I think that a good deal of the difficulty experienced here was due to the general unsatisfactory position of international affairs and at the same time, of course, to certain difficulties in domestic management which arose. These last difficulties could have been minimised to a great extent, if a certain line of action had been adopted.

During the year, we had reason to feel that certain measures taken by the Government since assuming office had brought about beneficial results. In my opinion, the removal of the special import levies on a number of commodities has contributed in a substantial way to the improved position in which we find trade and industry at present. The granting of licences for the importation of certain raw materials required for processing manufactured articles, moreover articles for export, has been a very important factor in bringing about the recovery the Minister has reported here. However, the general benefits that will eventually accrue from that development have not been noticeable so far because, for obvious reasons, it takes a considerable time before there is any worthwhile advantage from the operation of licences in connection with the manufacture of the articles I referred to.

One very important help the Minister was able to introduce about a year and a half ago was the general easing of restrictions on hire purchase. A number of Deputies—particularly in last year's debate; I do not know if the same attitude has been adopted this year—were inclined to exaggerate the easement the Minister gave. A number of firms who have substantial hire-purchase dealings have told me that we probably did not go far enough at all. However, in that matter it is better that we should be somewhat cautious. I am quite sure that if a case can be made to the Minister for a further relaxation in the regulations covering hire purchase at present, he would be prepared to consider sympathetically any representations made.

A very important factor which helped to stimulate industry as a whole, particularly industry which has its roots in outside sources, has been the concession which the Minister has given by legislation in respect of profits derived from exports. The general increase in industrial production has been very satisfactory. Certainly, there has been a good start. Let us hope we will be able to eclipse that figure in the present year. There is considerable leeway to be made up and it will require the co-operation of the various sections of the business community to enable us to forge ahead to the extent we require if we are to survive.

I was pleased to find that the Minister dealt rather fully with the question of technical assistance for industry. He indicated that the existing arrangements would be continued whereby one third grant would be made towards any expenditure incurred in engaging industrial consultants or technical experts, with a view to improving the efficiency and general organisation of any industrial undertaking. That is a very important scheme in relation to industrial activity. I suggest to the Minister now that arrangements should be made to publicise the advantage of that scheme. It is also very important that medium-sized businesses should avail of the advantages of the scheme and set about reorganising their businesses with the assistance of those competent to advise on their problems.

This is a relatively new scheme. It occurs to me that we are, in all probability, not satisfactorily equipped to take full advantage of the scheme in so far as we are not able to provide the necessary technical personnel—at least not in sufficient numbers— competent to advise those seeking help and assistance. I am rather wondering if, in fact, there are any recognised bodies or persons on any approved panel, or elsewhere, who the Minister is satisfied are capable of giving advice. As it stands, the scheme is rather loose and the general terms and conditions attached to it do not exactly specify the type of personnel or organisation which must be employed, if businesses set out to seek technical advice.

The bigger business undertakings here have learned a good deal by following American pattern and have already in most cases got that advice so essential to bring about the desired measure of efficiency which every successful business undertaking must acquire nowadays if it is to survive. The smaller or medium-sized business can contribute substantially to our general economy and it is on that type of business we should concentrate. There is greater scope for development and, pro rata, greater scope for increased employment, as compared with the bigger business undertakings. There are many reasons for that. It is not necessary to elaborate on them here.

I appeal to the Minister to initiate some type of publicity campaign which will bring the terms of this scheme to the notice of business people and others eligible to take advantage of the scheme. I ask him to use every means in his power to influence these people and urge them to avail of the splendid service the scheme can give. I also hope that the Minister will find some means of setting up an approved panel giving the names of the authorities, organisations or individuals competent to advise, so that when a business executive requires the services of these people, he will have a ready reference wherein he will find the name of an approved person. What I have in mind is a panel such as that complied in connection with the appointment of public auditors for the auditing of the accounts of certain public companies, co-operative societies and so forth. I suggest that that aspect is rather important. I hope that the few points I have made in this connection will be considered by the Minister at his earliest convenience. There is absolute necessity, particularly in the medium-sized and smaller businesses, for advice along the lines this scheme is in a position to afford.

The Minister referred to the Undeveloped Areas Act and to the increase in the amount of grants. That increase sanctioned for An Foras Tionscal is very heartening. The only comment I should like to make is that the deficiency as between the amount sanctioned and the amount actually paid is very considerable. There is probably some good reason for that. The amount outstanding is £1,368,000 odd, which is very considerable. Perhaps when the Minister is replying he will be in a position to enlighten us as to why there is such a very substantial sum allocated but not paid.

It is satisfactory to note that the number of projects which reached production stage during the year shows an increase on the previous year and that almost a couple of thousand hands have found new jobs in these new undertakings. The Minister's statement indicates that there are 21 further projects which have not yet gone into production. I am sure it is unnecessary to urge the Minister to use his good offices with the Industrial Development Authority, or the relevant sections of his Department, to bring these projects to finality. It is most desirable that operations should commence at the earliest possible moment.

I have long felt that there are too many bodies under Government auspices dealing with industrial activity. There is a section in the Department of Industry and Commerce dealing with one line of industry. We have, then, the Industrial Development Authority dealing with another line, and we have An Foras Tionscal dealing with applications for grants and assistance under the Undeveloped Areas Act. We have Córas Tráchtála dealing with exports, in so far as external marketing is concerned. Unless the terms of reference of that organisation have been changed recently, I think I am correct in saying that Córas Tráchtála does not look after exports to British Commonwealth markets or to certain European countries. Their activities are confined to export markets in the United States and other American countries.

These bodies have been doing tremendous work and every Deputy will readily agree that the progress they have been making is both substantial and satisfactory. I am not to be taken as suggesting that there is any evidence of lack of co-operation between any of these bodies to which I have referred, but as long as they remain separate entities, you cannot secure that degree of co-ordination which is so necessary in a job of this kind. Sooner or later, it might be possible to amalgamate these four bodies into one centre of activity and, at the same time, departmentalise the various activities assigned to these separate bodies.

The present position causes a good deal of confusion. I have known a number of people who have come to Ireland for the purpose of setting up an industry. They make certain contacts at Government level when they arrive and eventually they find they have to go to two or three different Departments. That procedure is irritating and causes a good deal of disappointment. Business people, when they get down to a job, are accustomed to getting decisions as quickly as possible.

I submit to the Minister that the personnel strength of most of those bodies is insufficient to cope with the increased activities which it is understood will be assigned to them for the future. The personnel of the Industrial Development Authority is two or three men; Córas Tráchtála probably have a few more and, as far as I know, the executive authority of Foras Tionscal is limited to about three. The Industrial Development Authority is a very important body and could very well afford to be strengthened in personnel. If there is some good reason why the existing personnel cannot be increased, some part-time members should be appointed.

There are many outstanding men who in their own sphere of industry have proved that they are capable of being an advantage to any type of industry. By virtue of what they have been able to do in their own business well, whether it is a private or semi-State enterprise, they have proved that they would be excellent people to include in the Industrial Development Authority. A good deal of the time of the existing members is necessarily taken up with interviews, and so on, and they find very little time to study the possibilities that exist in the international sphere of securing industries for Ireland. I am sure the existing members would be only too glad to have outside assistance, and, with the technical experts who are available, could do considerably more effective work. I sincerely hope the Minister will find it possible to take some early action in that connection.

In the matter of finding industries for this country I often wonder how effective our embassies and consulates abroad have been. I have only one personal experience. Some few years ago, I was one of a party interested in securing an industry for a certain town. On that occasion, my colleagues and I came to the Industrial Development Authority with whom we had a very courteous interview and from whom we got some very satisfactory and practical advice. Part of that advice was that we were enlightened from an official list as to the goods which were then imported and as to the feasibility of setting up an industry to manufacture a certain class of these goods.

It was suggested by this body that if we communicated with a certain embassy abroad, they would probably make very useful contacts for us. We did communicate with the particular Minister attached to the embassy in a certain place. I am glad to say that in due course we established contacts, but through no fault of the people who came to our assistance or of ours, the project fell through. Greater use could be made at Government level of our embassies and consulates abroad.

On the question of grants under the Industrial Grants Act, 1956, we find a sum of £193,850 approved but only the very small sum of £9,000 paid out. There was a substantial balance of £184,850 outstanding on 31st March last. The Minister's explanation with regard to the misunderstanding which seems to exist as to the scope of the Act is a very good explanation. Nevertheless, it would save intending applicants and the staff attached to the Department which administers these grants a good deal of unnecessary work if some comprehensive brochure or pamphlet were issued explaining the position. The average businessman or the man in the street is not always competent to interpret from an Act the conditions that might be attached to a form of assistance available from the Government. If the matter were explained through a pamphlet and perhaps made available for publication in the Press, it would save a good deal of time and annoyance and bring this form of assistance to the notice of people who would be very glad to take advantage of it, if they got the slightest encouragement.

I am rather disappointed by the Minister's reference to the technical assistance scheme for the exploration of coal deposits. I am not disappointed because he introduced the scheme—I think it is long overdue and that he could be congratulated on making this substantial grant from public funds available, in addition to the E.C.A. grant—but because his main emphasis was on Leinster. He mentioned Connacht also, in a general way. My disappointment arises from the fact that Munster has not been singled out for special exploration. We admit that Munster is a smaller province than Connacht, but I think we have a strong case in regard to this scheme. For its size, I submit it has quite a formidable area of coal deposit. If we are to rely on the reports available from surveys made over a number of years, the deposits in Munster are regarded as very hopeful. Generally speaking, the Minister should see his way to widen the scope of the scheme so as to have the exploration programme extended to Munster.

What is most encouraging about the scheme is that it comes at a time when we are not in a very satisfactory position with regard to the quality of certain types of coal—household coal, particularly. We encountered considerable difficulty in getting suitable anthracite coals for certain types of ranges patented in recent years. Since the war, householders, particularly in rural areas, have installed modern types of fire boxes and cookers. I have been told by quite a number of people who have got in Esse, Aga and other types of cookers, that they find it difficult to get reliable qualities of anthracite beans. I hope the coming survey will discover coal deposits of a kind which will make up the present deficiency and remove many of the housewives' headaches in this respect.

The activities of Bord na Móna continue to be most satisfactory. Those of us old enough to remember the start of Bord na Móna 25 years ago and who happened to be associated with it, even in a small way, feel very happy to note the high place this industry holds now in the economic life of the country. The difficulties the board encountered in its formative years are probably not generally understood by many Deputies. A person would need to have been associated closely with its activities, to realise the prejudices and the extraordinary difficulties that existed when the board was formed. Its early activities were confined to the production and sale of hand-won turf.

I would not like to let this occasion pass without putting it on record that a good deal of the credit for the board's satisfactory position is due to those who supported its activities in those early years. I could scarcely refer to their "success" at that time, as one could not call it a success. They merely carried on. At the same time, they were able to carry on without a subsidy. They often found they were short of money and were obliged to get it from State sources. It is on record that any moneys advanced to them were paid back fully to the State with the standard rate of interest.

The board at that time found it exceptionally difficult to sell hand-won turf. Shortly after its formation—about 1936 or 1937—the board took a very bold step and expended considerable sums on modern machinery and equipment, which had to be brought in from other countries. In this way, it was possible to undertake the production of machine-won turf on a commercial basis. This product came to be offered to the people as "machine-won turf". I think the earliest customers the board could find with any degree of certainty were the various public bodies, whose members must be congratulated now for the patriotic outlook they then displayed.

The world at that stage was very peaceful and, even though a war was remotely predicted, we thought that at least the generation then living would pass away before there would be a major catastrophe in Europe. We had not very long to wait for the catastrophe to come. Fortunately for this country, Bord na Móna—or, as it was then, the Turf Development Board— was turning the first corner and was able to fill a very important requirement which existed when the war broke out. People who had not been favourably disposed towards turf were glad to cash in on the situation and found themselves depending substantially on the fuel produced by Bord na Móna in those years. Were it not for the fact that that industry was organised by the Fianna Fáil Government—the second Fianna Fáil Government, after 1933—and had been set on its feet a few years before the war, we would certainly have suffered a fuel famine between 1939 and 1945.

Bord na Móna can be described truthfully as one of the most successful and most important industrial undertakings we have. From the lowest paid employee to the highest executive on the board, there has been outstanding national and patriotic service. I hope those who supported the board's products in early years when support was difficult will not be forgotten now. At the moment, machine-won turf is marketed on a very restricted basis and I think the board's local bogs will not supply domestic requirements from their reserves of machine turf. That is rather a pity because the ordinary householder who supported the board when its products were so hard to market should not be forgotten now. It is the ordinary business rule that the good customer should be remembered. While the board might be compelled somewhat to adopt its present restrictions it is a rather short-sighted policy and an effort should be made to provide reasonable quantities of machine-won turf for private householders.

In regard to rural electrification, I am happy to find the Minister has found it possible to reintroduce the subsidy for the board's capital expenditure in that respect. The Minister has stated that there are 184 areas yet to be developed. I join with other Deputies in lodging a very strong protest regarding the board's present policy of fixing what are known as "fixed charges". The time is long past when a charge of that kind should exist. I see no reason why it should not now be possible, particularly with the subsidy restored, to fix a standard flat rate charge. If houses in a rural area are in what is known as "the uneconomic unit", according to the board, it is not the fault of the householders who have no say in the definition of "the uneconomic unit". It is very unfair that such people should be obliged to pay very substantial excesses above the charge fixed for the neighbouring house probably 50 or 100 yards away. Unfortunately—why, I do not know—the E.S.B. seems to decide that quite a lot of areas in these rural development schemes are "uneconomic". The result is that there is a doubt about the prospects of fixed charges and this militates considerably, in my opinion, against the success of the initial canvass.

While the Minister, presumably, has no direct responsibility for it, I think, seeing that he is subsidising the capital programme, he is entitled to indicate his views to the board on this matter. I would respectfully ask him to consider recommending that, as far as possible, the unskilled labour employed by the E.S.B. should be recruited through the local employment exchanges and that workers should get preference of employment in their own districts. At the moment, there seems to be a system of conveying personnel required for this development work from outside areas. I am sure other Deputies have received protests, as I have, from time to time on this point. Preference should be given to workers resident in a district which is being developed and when the scheme goes to the next district the people of that district should get their turn. If the Minister could make any recommendation to the board in that connection I think it would be much appreciated.

As time is running out, I shall confine myself to mentioning just a couple of important matters I have listed among others that I should like to deal with. The Minister referred to the wages policy. I think we should not allow this occasion to pass without conveying our best thanks to the Minister for the initiative he displayed on this very vexed question and also to the trade unions who showed a fine, national spirit and what I regard as a realistic approach—I might term it a most practical advance. For the first time, I think, we found ourselves united in trying to solve this problem this time last year. The approach was somewhat novel and it is most satisfactory that when the respective unions got together they were able to agree on a reasonable formula for increases which, I hope, eventually industry has readily paid and will find possible to bear.

The amount of the increase was not very substantial but it was a figure that required a sacrifice from the workers in a little way, in view of the position of business then, and a sacrifice from the employers in a rather bigger way—which was to be expected. The general approach was most satisfactory. The negotiations generally were carried through in a spirit of friendliness and co-operation. When the general position had resolved itself we found everything had gone right without industrial unrest, and that was a very important achievement.

The Minister referred to the allocation of £249,000 for harbour works this year and also to the provision of a major dredger which is being built in Dublin at the moment and intended for Limerick Harbour Commissioners. I am glad the Minister saw fit to indicate that the dredger may be used at western harbours. I should like to draw his attention to the fact that several of these harbours and those on the Shannon Estuary, especially those on the Kerry coast, require attention, and have required it for a number of years. They are in a very bad condition at present, not suitable as harbours at all, and they will remain so unless some of the assistance allocated for major harbours can be given to the smaller places. I hope that, from the general allocation the Minister has announced, he may find it possible to re-allocate any moneys left over, if they are not spent, during the coming financial year to those small harbours which are so important to their districts.

As we are on harbours, I should like to deal with the question of the Shannon Estuary. In recent months, we have initiated in the Shannon air base a Free Airport Development Authority. That step was rather important not alone to the general economy of the area but to the general economy of the country. That put a certain number of people thinking as to the practicability of developing a similar free port at Shannon Estuary. A number of local bodies in that area met under the auspices of the Limerick Harbour Commissioners in Limerick some months ago. They decided to set up a joint committee to approach the Minister and exhort him to take some action at Government level in that connection. A number of local committees, naturally interested in their particular locality, were also set up, but, in general, all these local committees were in very close liaison and co-operated with the parent committee in Limerick. I understand that that committee asked the Minister on that occasion to receive them in deputation to enable them to make some proposals relative to the possibilities of developing the Shannon Estuary.

A number of Dáil Questions were asked at the time. The reply was to the effect that, generally speaking, there did not seem to be any immediate possibility of deevloping the Shannon Estuary. It was stated that the question of establishing free ports at various centres was considered by the Ports and Harbours Tribunal, 1930, and by an inter-Departmental Committee in 1945. It was made clear by those investigations that the cost of providing the necessary facilities which were considered then to be applicable would be very substantial and that the extent to which they might be utilised was highly problematical.

It was more or less the general answer from the Minister or from the Department to any inquiries made in recent months that it would be imprudent in the extreme to incur any heavy State expenditure on the establishment of a free port purely on a speculative basis. In recent weeks, we have noticed that a private company, known as the Shannon Estuary Company, Limited, has been set up. Inquiries at official sources have so far failed to reveal who the promoters or directors of that company are. We have been able to ascertain that the company has been registered in the names of two promoting directors—a legal person here in Dublin and his assistant. Beyond that, we do not know who are the people connected with this company. The articles of association of the company, so far as they are available, seem to indicate that the company is being set up for the purpose of enabling an undertaking, whether on their own or through Government action, to survey the Shannon. I sincerely hope that, in view of the fact that there are local interested parties already on the field in this connection, the Minister will be very conservative about giving any group the right or the authority to undertake the survey.

One of the aims and objects, accordin to the Gazette on which particulars of the company have been registered is:—

"To apply for and acquire and hold any concessions, grants, rights, powers and privileges for the establishment and operation of a free port and a customs and excise free and tax free area on or near the estuary of the river Shannon or elsewhere in Ireland, and to develop and turn to account the same."

I do not want to labour this point too much. I would request the Minister to provide the committee which has been set up in Limerick for some months, and which is entirely representative of Limerick and the areas adjoining the Shannon Estuary, with the opportunity of discussing their ideas with him in this connection and, if they have any proposals to make, to facilitate them as far as possible in submitting those proposals for his consideration. I hope, when he is replying, the Minister will find it possible to make some reference to this matter.

I come now to the subject of tourism. It is the last but not the least. First of all, I am very happy the Minister has found it possible to give a very substantial increase this year to An Bord Fáilte: it is in the neighbourhood of £40,000. It is a very considerable sum. It should enable the board to make up for some of the deficiencies which exist at the moment in their organisation and scope. I think there is very little difference of opinion about this matter. Every side of the House accepts that tourism is one of the principal props of our national economy. Furthermore, it is an industry that has continued to register progress every year, particularly since the war years. It is an industry which contributes very substantially not alone to our balance of payments but to the general improved trend of the national economy.

There are various ideas as to the best method of administering the tourist business of this country. Nearly everybody attempts to give an opinion. From time to time, we have been subjected to quite a lot of criticism, some of which is constructive but quite a lot of which is destructive and given by people who do not first go to the trouble of ascertaining the facts. There is quite a lot of loose thinking and loose talk and irresponsible propaganda about An Bord Fáilte at the present moment. It is only right that Deputies should first of all give the lead in endeavouring, so far as it lies within our power, to kill any campaign that might attempt to exist in this direction. We are dealing with a very valuable asset. So far as I know, tourism now ranks second to agriculture. I am sure that if any of the other principal industries were attacked as tourism is attacked at the moment, we would all be rather perturbed and go out of our way to defend them.

There are many differences of opinion as to the best method of developing our tourist industry. There will always be differences of opinion as to the best means of doing anything, and unless there were differences of opinion, the industry would not be worth surviving at all. There is a way of resolving those differences without embarking on or engaging in a campaign—call it harmful propaganda because very little said in the case of our tourist industry can do immeasurable harm.

Like Bantry Bay.

Why Bantry? One very wise step taken by the Minister is the decision to revise the scheme of assistance that was in operation for the development of hotels. Heretofore, there was available only the guaranteed loan system which was reasonably satisfactory when it was possible to get the accommodation approved of by the board. Now, however, the Minister has found it possible to provide grants for the extension of existing hotels. This is a far more practical approach to the question of improving hotel facilities than the arrangements that were available under the loan. I am quite sure most hotel proprietors would be only too happy to take full advantage of this new scheme, but I think there will be a marked reluctance, unless there is some clearer understanding with regard to the question of increase in valuation. A previous speaker asked the Minister if the seven years' exemption would apply in this case. I take it that when he is replying the Minister will deal with that point. Generally speaking, hotel proprietors, who, without any scheme of assistance at all, were anxious to improve the amenities of their hotels were frightened off in past years from doing so because of the experience of neighbours who improved their business and found themselves faced with an increase in valuations.

That would seem to be a matter for another Minister.

I accept the ruling of the Chair. I make the point to indicate that the present position with regard to revaluations has retarded general progress in the hotel industry, so far as the improvement of buildings is concerned. If the Chair says it does not come within the scope of this debate, I will leave it at that.

The Deputy will get an opportunity on another Estimate.

I hope I shall not be in the House.

We have the Irish Tourist Association, who were pioneers in promoting tourism and should now have certain definite assignments. The Tourist Association was set up as a voluntary body many years ago and survived at that time without any assistance in the way of State subvention.

Who were the pioneers of tourism in this country?

The Danes.

Exactly. They came in and built Reginald's Tower in Waterford. We might as well try to lighten this debate, if we can.

In due course, the activities of the Irish Tourist Association were taken over by the Irish Tourist Board. The Irish Tourist Association exists at present but, in my opinion, it has very little definite work to undertake. An Bord Fáilte, more or less, farms out certain activities to the Irish Tourist Association, in the knowledge that they will be carried through very well. It would be in the interest of the whole tourist industry if the Irish Tourist Association were charged with certain definite responsibility. In that connection, I think they could relieve An Bord Fáilte of tasks such as internal publicity, contacts and negotiations with travel agencies and, more particularly, with initiating and setting up local development associations.

At the moment, the whole position of the Irish Tourist Association is rather obscure. Even those of us who are representative directors of the association find it very difficult to explain what useful purposes we serve. The local authorities make very generous contributions to the association every year. It is, of course, doing very good work in its own way, but the credit, unfortunately, for most of the work it does goes to An Bord Fáilte, which is the parent body and which naturally has to get the credit. I think there is a danger that in due course local authorities will become rather reluctant to continue the annual grant they make from the rates, if they cannot see some more positive evidence of activities on the part of the association than is to be seen at the moment.

Kerry could not grumble.

They could not— £55,000 tourist road grant.

I am making my point as an individual, that the Irish Tourist Association is a very well-equipped body to do specific and, I would say, difficult work in the matter of the tourist industry. I am making the appeal to the Minister, so far as it is within his power, to request An Bord Fáilte to farm out certain specific tasks which they have direct responsibility for to the Irish Tourist Association. If it is in order, I would suggest that Bord Fáilte is spending far too much money on publicity, both internally and externally.

That is a matter of administration which should be taken up with Bord Fáilte.

I accept your ruling, but surely when this House is providing an annual grant to Bord Fáilte, it should be possible to make reference to it. That is all I have to say.

As a new Deputy, I am not as well acquainted with these Estimates as other Deputies who are quite veterans. However, I represent certain people and I am putting forward their viewpoint; in other words, the viewpoint of the man in the street. In the first part of the Minister's statement, he referred to the number of persons employed as a result of grants. He referred to the figure of 1,500. The point that interests me is: how many of those 1,500 were male adults? Statements appear from time to time regarding the number of persons employed, the number of factories started, and the number of factories which it is hoped to start, but it all boils down to this question: who were employed? To employ 1,000 girls is all to the good, but it would be far better if the people employed were the fathers of families. A thousand girls employed at 25/- a week would be some help, but 1,000 male adults, if they earned £7 or £8 a week, would keep 1,000 families.

From what I know, it is not very hard for a girl to get a job in Dublin, but it is impossible for a boy or a male adult to do so. If there are to be grants, and if there is to be help given, priority should be given to anything that will mean employment for the fathers of families, for male adults, those who would receive a wage of £7 or £8 a week. The employment of a girl at, say 25/- a week will not do a great deal of good, and I am afraid that a great deal of the employment we hear about is the employment of young girls.

We hear a lot about the shortage of capital, but the man in the street does not know much about capital. He might as well be reading a doctor's prescription when he is reading about capital, and economists should make their pronouncements a little plainer so that they may be understood by the ordinary people. It seems strange that our whole hold-up is due to lack of capital. We are told, at the same time, that there is unlimited capital in the banks, in insurance companies and so forth, and yet we are depending entirely on foreign capital. I have no great faith in foreign capital, but I say that any capital which gives employment is better than no capital and no employment, but foreign capital can often dictate conditions.

There is plenty of capital here. Perhaps the Minister has not the power to control it. We praise democracy, but in a democracy we do not seem to have power to control capital, although we can control almost anything else. If the Minister lacks that power, I would not hesitate to suggest that he should be given it. De Gaulle in France, within a democratic system, is getting power for six months to do what he likes. I would not object to the Minister being a dictator for 12 months, if it meant getting control of the necessary capital. It is strange that we always seem to depend on the outsider instead of controlling what we have. When it was a matter of the freedom of the country, we depended for a long time on outside forces, but it was we who won in the end.

We are told that we can hope that something will come out of the Free Trade Area. In any deal, somebody gets the better of the other. I have a suspicion that, situated as we are, we may come out of it the worst. That is a matter the Minister is quite capable of watching. I have no hesitation in saying that. He is an able man and if he wants to be a dictator in finance, it is all right with me, so long as he produces the goods.

What about the rest of his colleagues?

There is nothing much we can do about it. That is one of the failings of democracy. While it may shove an able man up, it may shove up other people who are not so able.

On the question of the tourist trade, we always seem to think in terms of the well-to-do tourist with the big cigar, and the hotels. Any tourists are better than none. The wealthy tourist spends money, particularly in the country. As a Dublin Deputy, I am concerned with the city. There are no great opportunities for people who are unemployed in the city and no great hopes. One of our principal industries, housing, is petering out. There were 3,000 or 4,000 men engaged in the housing business. There are now fewer than 600. It has been stated that no obstacle will be placed in the way of providing money for flats, but that will not be any substitute for the building of houses.

I am afraid housing does not arise on this Estimate.

I know, but it has to do with employment. I want to refer to the unemployment position in Dublin. Regardless of what capital is made available for the building of flats, that work will not be able to engage more than 200 men per annum. The building of flats is not like the building of houses. There is compulsory acquisition of sites and litigation of all kinds arises. The Minister holds up the acceptance of tenders. There is a deputation at the moment about a case in which he held up acceptance of a tender. We need not have any high hopes of solving the unemployment problem in Dublin.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has no responsibility in that matter.

The Deputy is referring to people who are looking for employment in industry.

Deputy Sherwin will get another opportunity of discussing the housing situation.

Again dealing with tourism, I would point out to the Minister that there are 10,000,000 workers in England whom we should try to induce to come here, unless the people dealing with the tourist trade are snobs and do not want workers from England. There are 10,000,000 of them. These people join clubs. They save all the year and the poorest employee in England has £30 or £40 for his two weeks' holidays. All they want here is a bed. The Minister might consider establishing tourist camps where they would be provided with a simple bed, somewhere to wash up and a help-yourself snack bar. With plenty of publicity, we might get 20,000 or 30,000 tourists here for five months in the year, if it were properly organised.

It is sometimes suggested that workers in England get holidays at the same time. I am quite sure that with proper organisation, we could do a substantial trade with the British workers over a period of five months. I was in Blackpool last year in the month of June. Certain towns take over Blackpool for two weeks of the entire summer. If we could organise cheap excursions and establish large tourist camps where these people could at least lie down, they might come here. I put forward that suggestion for consideration. We should try to cater for the British worker, just as we cater for the American tourist. The British worker will spend as much and, what is important from my point of view, he will spend his money in Dublin. The well-to-do tourist travels the country. The British worker will come to the eastern seaboard, more particularly to Dublin.

There is a good deal of poverty in this city. Small shopkeepers come to me to fix up the question of their rates. They are unable to meet their rates because of unemployment in Dublin and because people have left the centre of the city. They find it very difficult to make ends meet. If the tourist trade could be organised for four or five months of the year, it would be of great benefit and would give employment in that period.

Certain industries could be built around a large-scale tourist trade with British workers. It is a practice of tourists to bring home a souvenir for every member of their families. If there were 30,000 or 40,000 people buying souvenirs, it would represent a substantial industry. People like to bring home a souvenir of the place they have visited and industries could be built up around the manufacture of souvenirs.

A friend of mine who is an ecclesiastical sculptor told me that he could not get a man in this country. He told me that he could engage three men, but had to bring a man from England. He blamed the unions. He was allowed one apprentice. He asked that he should be allowed to have other apprentices, but his request was turned down. That may have nothing to do with the Minister, but the Minister can bring in rules and regulations. This sculptor told me that there are not many in the trade but that if he were allowed to take on extra apprentices it would mean more employment.

In certain trades, there is a practice of allowing into the trade only the sons of men in the trade. That is most undemocratic. That practice means that there is often a shortage of skilled persons in a trade. That business should be done away with. It means that people are going into industry who might have no heart for industry and are just placed in something in which they have no interest, whereas others would have an interest in it. I hope the Minister will do his part to bring that to an end. There is too much of that amongst politicians; they show a bad example. So much for that.

I put down a question in connection with the manufacture of ammunition and I was told that about £250,000 worth of 22 ammunition and explosives is imported and another £300,000 worth of metallic cartridges is imported. Of course I got no information from the Minister for Defence, so I am taking it that about £750,000 worth of explosives and ammunition is imported here annually. Surely we could do something about that? I was talking to some people who are interested in this and they said that if they got some grant towards the plant, which is very expensive, they could do something about it. Ammunition is something you can export. It is something which does not go bad and which can be stocked. There is always demand for it. Every year, there is a revolution somewhere.

We ourselves were in a panic during the last emergency, and there were references in the newspapers to that panic and to our efforts to get ammunition from America. I am putting the point that approximately £750,000 of ammunition, which we could export, is imported. We could export some of it, anyway, and we could stock it. If there were an emergency to-morrow, we would be in a panic trying to get ammunition and we would be prepared to pay out £10,000,000 for it. Ammunition is something that does not become obsolete. We used some Boer War ammunition during the Black and Tan war.

If we are importing that amount of ammunition, we must be importing a lot of other things which, with a little help, we could manufacture here. Our imports are greater than our exports and if you went through the list, I am quite sure you would find a lot of things that could be manufactured here, even in some synthetic form, but good enough to be satisfactory. We are talking about creating employment and the accent is on exports. We have no guarantee that our export markets will always be there; there is always a danger of restriction. If we thought in terms of industries producing goods for home consumption, especially in regard to articles which we import, we would have something that would last.

As I said at the beginning, I came in here, one might say, a bit green, so far as these Estimates are concerned, but I made up my mind that I was going to stand up and speak, not like some people who only listen, and listen for years. I intend to join in the battle and in so far as I have made my contribution, I am satisfied.

I should like to have got in before the last speaker to say something about the speaker who spoke before him, Deputy Moloney, and also about his colleague, Deputy Faulkner. They appear to have prepared speeches to congratulate anybody who ever had anything to do with Fianna Fáil and to congratulate the Minister. As a matter of fact, Deputy Dillon had counted Deputy Faulkner congratulating the Minister seven times—17 times, it appeared to me. Nobody, however, mentioned anything about the Minister's undertakings to the people, as a responsible Deputy and as a man who has been a Minister of State for more than 20 years, going before the hustings and, where he was not able to go before the hustings, having his face placarded all over the country, with the words: "Let us get cracking."

He has been in office now for over a year and the Government, of which he is Deputy Prime Minister, has been in a coma for a year. He promised the people he could produce 100,000 jobs in five years. We do not hear anything about that now. I want to talk about the unemployment and about the misery of the people. The people are becoming hopeless about this. We had a smokescreen put up this evening and it reminded me of the best days of the Parnellites in the House of Commons preventing anybody from talking, like Deputy Faulkner and Deputy Moloney letting nobody in.

We had the meanderings of Deputy Moloney talking about Bord na Móna filling the gap during the fuel famine. We had a fuel famine and it was mainly the responsibility of the present Minister. Coal could be bought in England for 30/- a ton, but we did not want to burn British coal and we nearly left ourselves with nothing to burn. It is about time we got away from that kind of nonsense. The people were cheated in the most despicable fashion by that statement about the £100,000,000 and the 100,000 jobs. A special supplement of the Irish Press was printed to propagate those statements throughout the whole country.

As I come from the constituency of Waterford, I should like to review Fianna Fáil's industrial record in that city. Fianna Fáil came into office in 1932. The first thing they set about was the destruction of the pigs and bacon industry by two Acts in this House which were welcomed by members on the opposite benches. They welcomed these Acts because they would destroy the pig trade and the pig buyers. We have no export bacon trade, no export live trade——

That is a matter for another Estimate.

There were industries, and big industries. Matterson's cellar and Denny's lower bacon cellar were big industries, and they were closed.

It is a matter for the Agriculture Estimate.

If sacrifices had ever to be made in any town or city, Waterford was always picked to have its throat cut. Waterford merchants with Waterford capital, on their own initiative and without grants, had an investigation into the pros and cons of having a cement industry in Ireland. Did we get it in Waterford? We did not. An oil refinery was established elsewhere. Some years afterwards, as a result of its being established elsewhere, McDonnell's margarine factory, a long-established industry in Waterford, had to leave and set itself up alongside the oil refinery. There was a battery factory in The Glen, Waterford. It is up here in Dublin now. The H.M.V. radio and gramophone factory was established in Waterford. It is up here in Dublin now. That is the industrial record of Fianna Fáil.

We have the Waterford glass industry in Waterford. They did not come because anybody liked our faces. They came because Waterford was famous for its glass, because Waterford had a name. During the term of office of the previous Government, the wallboard factory was erected in Waterford. It was not erected because the previous Government—the Government which I supported—liked the faces of the Waterford people. It was put up there because the experts said they would want so many million gallons of water an hour at a certain time in the process and that Waterford was the best place to put it. It is better that these things be put on record in the House.

That brings me to the question of the centralisation of industry in Dublin. I think it is a frightful mistake. Some years ago, I put down a question as to how many industries had been established in the country over a period of a couple of years, how many had been established in County Dublin and how many established outside. The figure was 200 odd for Dublin and about 28 for the remaining 25 counties. It has been mentioned that fine business towns down the country are dying. There are towns in the western part of my constituency, fine towns like Tallow, Lismore and Cappoquin, where people are willing and anxious to work.

It was mentioned here that there is a scarcity of capital. I know there is not a scarcity of capital and that the Minister is only too willing and anxious to help people down the country; but perhaps those people are not as slick as the gentlemen in the Gresham Hotel and the Shelbourne Hotel at grabbing what we might call the industrial plums because they are not up here at the centre of things. Many industries have been established around here where the only thing necessary for them was a power line. They should have been established down the country, or in the West——

God knows there is enough encouragement for them to go to the West, anyhow.

There is an awful lot of encouragement for them to leave the West because of good wages.

If industries are started, I am satisfied that the trade unions will look after the wages end of it. Even though there are plenty of young boys and girls who want to travel, there are many who would prefer to stay at home. It is the Minister's duty, and our duty, to provide work for them to the best of our ability. What Deputy Dillon said is right: we do not want any foreigners coming in here to patronise us with capital, but we want them to patronise us with their know-how. We have sufficient ties with the United States to enable us to make overtures to them to put up industries here. They are putting up industries in risky countries like the Lebanon.

We have no Communists. That is the reason they would not come.

I agree. If we had Communists, they would come to save us. They could give us a lot of know-how and show us a lot in salesmanship. I should like to talk about salesmanship as it concerns industry and commerce. There were many industries here which had the proper technicians, raw materials, processes and which produced a perfectly finished article. Where was the failure? The failure was salesmanship. Men were sent out to sell the stuff who had been used to selling protected goods. They were described as "salesmen"—God save the mark. They could not sell sovereigns at 10/- apiece.

That is where we are losing. When we go into outside markets, we send salesmen who have never known competition. I saw some of them sitting in their glass offices, reading the Irish Press or the Irish Independent and waiting for people to go in and buy their stuff from them. The people never did and they could not sell anything. We can learn a lot from the Americans in that way. There are competent industries here, and I may be pardoned for picking out an industry in my own constituency, Waterford glass. It is run competently; it exhorts; it takes every opportunity of promoting its sales and having its products mentioned. They take the greatest care in the world with their products. No seconds or damaged articles are sold out of the industry. If an article is not completely perfect, it is smashed. There is the headline for Irish industry. They are not afraid to go out, risk their money and pay for rooms in the most expensive hotels in American to send out their salesmen and send out their technicians and let the world see them.

Another catchcry which Fianna Fáil has swallowed now is: "Thank God, the British market is gone." Now we have a new body set up to foster the sale of Irish goods in Great Britain. Thanks be to God that, even at this late stage, they have come to realise there is a market in Great Britain. I have a great respect for the Minister as an administrator, but I have no respect for his salesmanship in two matters here. The Minister was piqued by the tea merchants of Mincing Lane in London and he brought in an Act which was the equivalent of a slap in the teeth to the English tea trade. Then, a month or two afterwards, the Minister travels to London to try to sell our butter to the British.

I am never afraid to ask a question, but I never get an answer from the Ministers opposite. I asked the Minister a question on the Committee Stage of the Transport Bill with reference to the canals. I had had a communication from the Inland Waterways Association. The Minister said that they were people who owned a few yachts and did not matter. But they were taxpayers and they had their democratic right to communicate with me or any other Deputy. They made a certain statement. If that statement was wrong, it should have been repudiated by the Minister. The statement was that the canals were taken over by C.I.E. and, at the time they were taken over, they were making a small profit. After some time the canals were losing a good deal of money. The Minister said that C.I.E. were forced to take over the canals. I do not care whether or not they were forced to take them over; the point is that, after a short time, they were losing money.

The Inland Waterways Association stated in the circular sent to almost every Deputy some of the reasons why the canals were losing money after being taken over by C.I.E. The servants of the Canal Company were forbidden to look for traffic and if anybody in the canal service looked for traffic he was subject to disciplinary action. I asked the Minister if he would deny that statement. The Minister is a very clever man; he fenced. He told me how the railway companies were taken over on such and such a date and what happened in 1951. Even at this late hour I ask the Minister to answer my question. If the servants of the Canal Company were subject to disciplinary action for looking for traffic, that should be exposed, and the people who gave that order should themselves be subjected to disciplinary action because, if it is true—and I have asked the Minister to tell me whether or not it is true—then a State subsidised body, C.I.E., deliberately sabotaged the property of the State, property turned over to them by an Act of the Oireachtas.

The Minister's solution for everything not so very long ago was "increased production". Every time he made a speech to a Chamber of Commerce meeting that was the solution propounded. Last year, by way of question and in the Budget debate, I asked several Ministers if they wanted increased production. I asked the Minister for Agriculture if he wanted increased butter production and increased wheat production. Every single Minister dodged the issue. Now Ministers are responsible people. Their speeches are reported and the people read them. It would be a simple matter for them to say: "We want increased production, but we do not want it in butter and we do not want it in wheat."

Wheat production may perhaps be the bailiwick of the Minister for Agriculture but sales of wheat are the responsibility of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. At the direction of the Minister, wheat was sold in six-ton lots by the millers to the farmers at £26 per ton. A good deal of wheat was sold at £20 per ton to the biscuit manufacturers. Some wheat was exported at £18 per ton. Asking the Irish farmer to take six-ton lots debarred the average feeder from buying any wheat at all because even if he had the money he would not have the storage facilities. The sale of wheat at bargain prices to the biscuit manufacturers was justified on the ground that the biscuit manufacturers have to compete. Could we not apply the same justification in the case of the pig feeder and the poultry feeder and give them cheap wheat so that they could compete in foreign markets?

The whiskey industry is based on the land. The Irish farmer is producing surplus wheat. One of the ways to remedy that situation would be to get the farmer to grow more barley instead of wheat. I hope the new body the Minister is setting up to look after sales will look, in particular, to the sale of Irish whiskey in America and England and ensure that a uniform quality of whiskey will be shipped. Where other exports are concerned we try to make sure that they are uniform in quality and of the very highest standard. We will ship nothing but grade A bacon and the best butter. That is perfectly right. Not only should we ensure that good whishkey is exported but we should also ensure that Irish whiskey will not get a bad name. This may be a cause for merriment. I went on a pub crawl on one occasion with some friends of mine in London. It was not necessary to take very much drink because we had only to go into the biggest public house in London and ask for two or three "Irish" to be told that they had none. Usually the barman was an Irishman. We asked him why he did not stock "Irish" and his reply was that nobody came in to sell it to them. There, again, one comes back to the question of salesmanship. We want salesmen—not sleepwalkers.

There is one other matter upon which I should like the Minister to say something. I do not know a thing about it though I hear many people shouting their heads off about it. But I am an innocent man. I refer to the Free Trade Area. I do not know where it is—I have a good knowledge of geography—and I cannot get anybody to tell me. One sees great headlines in the newspapers about it. Where will we be in this Free Trade Area? We have this horrible foreign market over in Great Britain, about which some Deputies talk here as if it were a disease. That market takes £50,000,000 worth of cattle and it takes a great many of our surplus sheep. It takes the bulk of our commodities. Now we have this new body to deal with sales organisation and foster sales.

We are going into a Free Trade Area. At the moment we have a preference in the British market and, in return, we give the British certain preferences. If we go to deal with the Dutch, the Danes and the French and give them the preferences the British have, where will we be in the British market as far as our agricultural produce is concerned? The position in regard to free ports is a mystery to me, and I was born in a port town.

Since I mentioned ports I might as well deal with harbours. There are many Deputies, even on my own benches, who will start throwing bricks at me now. No money should be provided for harbours or piers unless there is some hope of ships using them. A certain harbour was built in this country and opened with a great flourish of trumpets. A cargo went out of it but it would have been cheaper to have bought a fleet of Rolls Royces, put the cargo into them ounce by ounce and send it out. Nothing went out of that harbour since. I know the Minister is a wise enough man about this now but pressure is being brought by Deputies from all sides to construct harbours and piers, and so on. They go to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to obtain £250,000 for this purpose, but they should say to themselves: "Is this a wise project? Will it give a good return for the money involved? Would it not be better to go to the Minister to obtain that money, put £150,000 of it into an industry and have £100,000 behind us to subsidise it and give the people work?" I make that suggestion to the members of Parties on all sides of the House, including my own Party.

At Waterford Harbour we have a new dock on the north side. It was built during the Minister's term of office. He came down and opened it. I, as mayor, welcomed him and was glad he came on such an occasion. Then I was shocked because the Minister made a speech that night, and announced that Irish Shipping were going to build ten 10,000 tonners. I pointed out to the Minister that none of the ships he intended to build would ever tie up at the port he had opened. I afterwards ascertained that none of those ships would tie up at Cork, Limerick or Waterford. They could only tie up at Dublin fully laden. I give the Minister full marks for altering the size of the ships. They are big enough for this country, 7,000 to 8,000 tonners. It is all right going into this cargo trade, but we adhere to the policy of keeping a fleet here so that we shall not be caught out, as we were, in a time of emergency. In the event of an emergency I would rather have 40 5,000 tonners than 20 10,000 tonners. You can sink 40 ships 40 times and you can sink 20 ships 20 times.

One thing we should have done after the war—and we could have built some of the ships in Dublin—was to get into the coasting trade. We saw the way the Dutchmen got into it. They are part owners of their ships. They got loans from the Government. It was a mistake that we did not give the same opportunity to seafaring people in Ireland. We are providing facilities for the people who are in the fishing industry by financing boats for them.

In regard to tourism, this whole business is bedevilled by people wanting the Tourist Board and the Tourist Association to work miracles. We should count our blessings. This is a good tourist country and we must give full marks to the hoteliers all over the country. The hotels have been improved immensely through the Tourist Board driving them on in many cases and helping them in almost every case. There was an outcry of holy horror when the Tourist Board started to inspect hotels. The Minister was right in pursuing the policy that the hotels must be improved.

I agree with many Deputies that it is a good thing to bring in as many American tourists as we can, but the greatest benefit to the tourist trade is the English tourist and the tourist from over the Border. They are mostly ordinary working people who have saved up their money and they are free spenders. We do not get many American tourists on the south-east coast of Ireland but we get many British tourists through the ports of Rosslare and Waterford. A forward step by the Tourist Board was that, in conjunction with the Waterford Harbour Board and other bodies, they got a low rate from British Railways on cars coming over in the months of April and May, which has helped a great deal.

I would suggest to the Minister to make a recommendation to C.I.E. that there should be more excursions and more cheap week-end rates from England to Ireland. I am old enough to remember the old week-end cheap rates. In those days the week-end started on Friday. People could buy a ticket on Friday, arrive in Waterford on Saturday morning and sail out of Waterford on Tuesday. I do not see why we cannot get back to that arrangement. There are many of our people in England who have married English or Irish people. They cannot afford the high normal rates but they would like to come home and bring their children. There is a great potential trade there and I would respectfully draw the Minister's attention to it. There should be special week-end fares in the months of May and June, or in the month of September, when the resorts are slack.

I do not know whether this is the Minister's bailiwick but in reading through various allocations for roads I discovered that the Minister has allotted for tourist roads——

It seems to be a matter for the Minister for Local Government.

I bow to your ruling but I am given to understand——

It arises on Local Government, the next Estimate.

Very well. I shall wait until then. The tourist Board has done a good job in preserving ancient monuments and the Board of Works has helped. I have heard the Tourist Board criticised about, say, Bunratty. The Bunratty effort was a great one and, even though it is not finished, it has paid for itself. I have many relatives in America who send me newspapers which have an enormous circulation. One had the whole story of Bunratty on it and that was as good an advertisement as one could get. That is something the Minister can stand over.

The same thing happened in Waterford. With the aid of the Tourist Board, Reginald's Tower was restored and is a great tourist attraction. We were able to put a curator there and charge 6d., and it pays. There is a visitors' book, which is signed by people from all over the world. They can write and make inquiries there. That is the correct line to go on. There are many ancient monuments in towns, especially in the West of Ireland, and it would be a good idea if An Bord Fáilte, instead of taking a house for offices, used one of these monuments and had it opened for inspection and had a representative there so that it could be a local inquiry office.

In regard to the German Trade Agreement, it is said the Germans are often tough. We do not know what the agreement is yet, although Ministers are driving around in German cars. The Germans are doing all right out of us—we spend £2 or £3 with them for every £1 they spend with us. I suppose they were always a cocky nation and can never forget it; they were always a people who could not be dictated to. We were always a people who never took dictation from anyone and we should not take it from them. We should give them a fair deal and if they do not want that, let them "go fish" and let us buy English and American cars.

Going back to tourism, I was on one of the boats on the Shannon the other day. It is a great idea. I saw people in Galway booking at various hotels and going out on the Corrib and they are delighted with it. The Corrib is beautiful and so is the Shannon. I am not being parochial about this. In my constituency, in the south-east, we have the Blackwater, the Suir, the Barrow and the Nore and no pleasure boat on any of them.

That would be a matter for An Bord Fáilte and not for the Minister.

If the Minister only gave a whisper to An Bord Fáilte, it would be done. It would be excellent tourist promotion. Coming back to where I started, there was the cry, "£100,000,000 and 10,000 jobs". The Minister said that. I would like to see him do it and hope he will be able to do it. We would be fortunate if he could, but if he cannot, he should be brave enough to say so, to tell us: "I did not mean it; it cannot be done."

I listened to a number of speakers in the past two or three days of debate on this Vote and thought I would hear something constructive or original, but I heard only long rambling speeches.

The Deputy should have heard Deputy Moloney.

I was not in the House during that period.

You are a lucky man.

I heard Labour Deputies and some leaders of Fine Gael, and all they could do was rehash something said on this side of the House. They said also they hoped we would not be here very long and made other suggestions of that kind.

I have been looking down over the amount of work carried out by the Minister, good lasting work for the nation. As a result of his work in the formation of various industries and of State bodies, thousands of people have got good employment. People may say what they like about him, but his record will stand the test of time. Even posterity will not be able to shake it. In the few recent years he has been Minister, he has succeeded in contributing more to making this country self-supporting than any other Minister will succeed in doing. Due to his energy, we have reached saturation point in certain products, but that was to be anticipated.

The Tourist Board was descried by the members of the Opposition and our tourist trade in general was decried. Now they have adopted it. We have also Bord na Móna, which was established by the Minister and we know what it has done. We have Aer Lingus and Aer Línte, Irish Shipping Limited, mineral explorations, numerous factories, the extension of the Sugar Company and rural electrification. Then they ask: "What has Fianna Fáil done for the workers and for the people?" The people who criticise us in that way had six years to try to do something original, something better than we did in our time. When they got the opportunity, they did one thing —they succeeded in destroying the economy which it took years and years to build up under a Fianna Fáil administration.

They are out on the hustings now in Dublin, decrying Fianna Fáil, as they will be at any by-election, and asking what we did for the workers. In 1948, when this country was handed over to the inter-Party Government, the Minister rightly said at that time: "We are giving you over a country in a sound financial position; give it back to us in the same way." At that time, I was a member of this House and had been very pleased at the trend of affairs, economically and politically. It was going up and up. More people were anxious to put money into industry and to do the things that mattered. In 1951, we came over to this side of the House again and had to try to undo the harm done in their period of three years in office. Again, from 1951 to 1953, things were reasonably good, until 1954, when we were defeated again.

I have heard a lot of philosophy used by Clann na Poblachta, by the Labour Party and by others. There is only one philosophy so far as the economic well-being of any nation is concerned. That has been proved by the successful nations of the world. It is to produce what you can within your own country to feed your own people and try to get into the export market. The Minister is trying to get into the export market with Irish products and trying to encourage Irish industrialists to go into the export market. I have read, so far as I could, about the economic philosophies of successful nations and that is the way they became successful. A few of them have mineral resources which we have not, but I believe a number of industrialists here could make better efforts to get into the export market. Even if the Minister had ten times the power he has, unless the people in a position to assist do a bit more for the nation as a whole, we will not get anywhere. It was the individual enterprise of great men in other countries that helped to build these countries economically and politically, whether large or small.

Recently I asked a question in this House about a product for which we have raw materials here and, to my amazement, I found those producing this product are only on the fringe of an industry that could employ thousands of our people. I asked the Taoiseach to state the quantity of whiskey exported to the United States and other countries during the five years ending on 31st March last. Our export trade to the United States in 1958 in whiskey was only 36,211 gallons. The export trade of the Associated Distilleries of Scotland during the same period was 11,200,000 gallons. Our contribution seems very small and indicates that we have not even made an effort to get into the export market. Surely there is something there to be developed. We have the raw materials and the land to produce them and, if our blend of whiskey is not suited to American taste, if the Scottish distilleries are able to sell their whiskey to the extent I mentioned, surely we should be able to do better than 36,000 gallons. Last year alone, the Scottish distilleries increased their export trade by over 1,000,000 gallons.

Recently the Parliamentary Secretary to the British Board of Trade paid the Associated Distillers of England and Scotland this tribute. He said they were responsible for exporting £128,000,000 worth of whiskey, ale, stout and other products, and he said that the brewing trade had contributed more towards redressing the adverse trade balance than had the export of motor cars, petrol or anything else.

I want to emphasise the importance of developing a larger export trade in whiskey. We have the land to grow the barley and we have the breweries, and I feel that if the brewers and distillers of the country got together, they could handle their job better than it is now being handled. All we need is the salesmanship and the method of producing the whiskey. When the Associated Distillers can export over 11,000,000 gallons and we can export only 36,000 gallons, our distillers and brewers should be ashamed of themselves. They are contributing very little towards helping their nation compared with their counterparts in other countries. If it can be done in Scotland, we should be able to make a better attempt here, and, if the export of whiskey could be increased, it would give employment to thousands of our people. It is an enterprise which would benefit farmers, workers and the country as a whole.

It would be pointless for me to traverse ground already covered by my colleagues in the Labour Party or on this side of the House, and I intervene for only one reason. I wish to refer to comments made last week in regard to the capital made available by the Government and the provisions for port development.

Deputy Corry deprecated in no uncertain fashion last week the fact that the Government had made capital available for Cork harbour development. He deprecated the fact that the Government, which he supports, and the previous Government, adopted a policy of injecting necessary capital for the development of one of our more important ports located in my constituency and his constituency. The Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary know Deputy Corry longer and better than I do and I am sure they will judge better than I could the merits of his argument and the responsibility of his statement on this and other subjects, but, as a Deputy from Cork City area, where this is a very vital matter, it is my duty to keep the records straight, lest perhaps the Minister, in replying to the debate, might not think it worth while to comment on the contribution of his colleague.

I want to assure the Minister that his policy in making the necessary capital available for the development of Cork port—it was also the policy of his predecessor and that of other Ministers for Industry and Commerce before him—is deeply appreciated by the people of Cork generally. They realise the necessity for this type of capital investment and for the development of the port. When I say that, I hope I am not appearing in the role of a person arguing strictly from a parochial point of view. The development of our ports is a question of vital importance to the nation. It is regrettable that any Deputy, for the sake of furthering his own personal cause, should take it upon himself to sabotage the earnest endeavours of any Government in this connection.

I will quote what Deputy Corry said on this matter last week. He said:—

"There was the extraordinary position that, some years ago, an expert was brought over to examine the port and was paid a fee of £12,000. He made recommendations on proposals, all of which were carefully filed away in the wastepaper basket of the Cork Harbour Commissioners."

The report of the expert to which Deputy Corry refers was made in 1922. It may not strike Deputy Corry that a lot of water has passed under the bridges and down the Lee since the Nicholson Report was issued in 1922. In his usual form, he quotes a figure of £12,000 as being the cost of the report at that time. The total fees which were paid to Mr. Nicholson who made that report—both his salary and travelling expenses—amounted to just over £1,000. The whole report was produced—Mr. Nicholson's fees, draughtsman's fees, printing and other expenses —for a total of £1,370. Deputy Corry said it cost £12,000 and that the whole thing was put in the wastepaper basket.

I am quite sure the Minister knows long before now that when Deputy Corry has a personal axe to grind the difference between £1,500 and £12,000 is a mere bagatelle. He endeavours to press his case from his own personal point of view, and to collect a few votes in the process, irrespective of the effect it may have, not alone on his own locality but on the nation.

I simply intervene to say that, first of all, and, secondly, to say that the recommendations made on that occasion were not duly filed in the wastepaper basket of the Cork Harbour Commissioners. Deputy Corry was a member of the Cork Harbour Commissioners long before I came into public life. He is not so now and I think he is a bit sore about it. He should know more about its operations than I do. I can assure the House that report was not filed away in the manner Deputy Corry has mentioned. The preliminaries of that report were estimated in 1922 to cost £1,042,000. Multiply that figure by four to get the up-to-date costs. Many of the recommendations in the Nicholson Report have been adopted as policy for the development of the port of Cork by the Cork Harbour Commissioners and have had the blessing and support of successive Governments. It is not true that nobody took any notice of that report and that nothing was done about it.

I should like to place on record one of the recommendations in that report to which Deputy Corry did not advert. It appeared from his contribution to this debate that his own Minister was misguided and that previous Ministers were misguided in developing the port of Cork as against developing the lower harbour at Cobh. His pet subject all the time has been that the moneys being spent in the upper reaches of the harbour should be spent in developing the deep water quay at Cobh in his constituency. I want to quote from the Nicholson Report, on which he appeared to be leaning when he spoke on the previous day.

This is what Mr. Nicholson had to say about the improvement of the Cobh deep-water quay which is the pet subject of Deputy Corry:—

"In my opinion, the development of the deep-water quay, an extension of same to the west, would be a grave mistake as far as terminals from oversea shipping are concerned and I should not like to see the harbour board expend £1 on this location."

I said when I started that I did not intend to intervene in the debate, except to keep the record straight and to place these facts on the records of this House—facts which are completely contrary to what Deputy Corry would like the House to believe and to what he would like his constituents to believe. I have no doubt that the Minister from wide experience of the Deputy, is well able to assess the merits of any argument he puts forward and adjudicate on the responsibility or otherwise of his statements.

It is regrettable that any Deputy should use his privileged position to endeavour to drive a wedge, to create differences and opposition, between adjoining communities, as Deputy Corry has being doing for quite a while now in relation to the people who reside in the town of Cobh and the City of Cork. There are other people as well as Deputy Corry who, on every occasion, endeavour to create differences between people who live in towns and people who earn their livelihood from agriculture. I think that is a regrettable state of affairs. All of us should be adult enough now, particularly members of this House, to know that we all sink together or we all win out together. I cannot be too strong in my condemnation of anybody, including Deputy Corry, who endeavours to create these differences and these oppositions between town and country.

I noted that when the Minister was introducing his Estimate he said that last year, 1957, was a year of recovery. It goes without saying, of course, that statement was welcomed by everyone in this House, because we are all trying to achieve recovery from the economic blitz which hit this country in 1956 and prior to that. However, when the Minister referred to 1957 as being a year of recovery, he conveniently forgot to mention the reason for that recovery. It was due to the steps taken by the previous Government in an effort to redress the very bad balance in regard to our external trade. In great measure I would say the levies imposed by the previous Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman, did the work which they were intended to do, with the result that the Minister for Industry and Commerce was able to come into the House the other day and say that 1957 was a year of recovery.

However, when we read the papers and see that in 1958 the pendulum is beginning to swing back it is time for us to take stock again. There are signs that the adverse balance of trade is increasing considerably. I admit it is the present Government's policy to do what it can to stimulate production in every sphere and, in their efforts to do so, they will naturally have the full support of every Party in this House. The Minister described the various measures which the Government intended to implement, and which they are implementing at the present time, to achieve this stimulus to production. The previous Government did something to try to increase production; Governments in the past did likewise but, in my opinion, no matter what any Government does to achieve that very important goal of increased production their efforts will be in vain unless there is harder work from everybody. When I say "harder work" I refer not only to ordinary workers throughout the country but also to those who employ those workers, those at management level.

I would suggest also, in order to inject into industry the much needed capital which the country requires, if we are to succeed in our efforts to achieve increased production, that capital might be found if banks and insurance companies were more ready to provide the money. It is good to note that in recent times the banks have expressed a greater readiness and a greater willingness to do so. The Minister referred to the step which one Irish assurance company took recently when it said it would be prepared to provide capital needed for increased production. I hope and trust that many other insurance companies will follow suit.

Another pleasing thing to note is the recent step taken by the employees of Arthur Guinness & Co., and also by the members of the Local Government Officials' Union, who decided to donate a certain proportion—a very small proportion, admittedly—of their salaries towards setting up a fund for starting some industries in their particular areas. Of course, the little mite stopped from those people's wages is very small. It represents the widow's mite but, please God, it will grow and grow and achieve something worth while.

Mention has been made during the debate of the infusion of foreign capital into this country. I have read accounts in the newspapers of criticisms levelled at the step the Government is taking to attract foreign capital. These criticisms say that Irish industrialists are being sacrificed to make way for foreigners. The critics conveniently forget—I do not know if it is conveniently or not but they do forget—that the same privilege and the same aids are given to them, if they want them, to increase their export trade. The main reason the Government is anxious to attract foreign capital is to be in a position to promote the export of our products, and it would be interesting to know, or ascertain if it were possible, what benefits have accrued since this step was intensified to attract foreign capital.

How many people have become employed or how many factories have been set up as the result of foreign capital coming in? I am not asking these questions in any spirit of criticism; I am just asking them as a matter of curiosity. In connection with attracting foreign capital to this country, it is very important that technical training of apprentices be intensified and modernised as much as possible. Having that end in view I would suggest the Minister should whisper into the ear of his colleague, the Minister for Education, and ask him to provide as much money as possible for the equipping of vocational schools so that vocational teachers will be able to teach and train the apprentices who pass through their hands. These apprentices, in later years, will become the craftsmen of this country and will be able to justify the confidence which any foreign industrialist may place in them.

Mention was made of how the free Trade Area will affect this country. I should like to take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the Minister for the many public statements he made as the months progressed. He went to Europe and to London many times to ascertain the various implications of this project as they would affect our country and, even though he could not give many concise or exact details of the project, he kept us abreast of the various moves made. Whether or not this proposed Free Trade Area will materialise in fact is very hazy, especially in view of recent developments in France which was one of the countries which mooted this project originally. Assuming it will materialise, it is of importance that we should know where we stand.

Deputy Lynch referred to the agreements which we have with Britain at the present time, and asked how would those agreements fare in a Free Trade Area. He said preferences were given by Britain to us, and by us to Britain, and he asked would those preferences be removed in a Free Trade Area or would we be asked to give preferences to Holland, Belgium, France and other countries on the Continent. My impression of the proposed Free Trade Area working arrangements is that there will be no preferences at all. Each country will be free to import and export its various commodities, without restriction within that particular area only. If we go into the European Free Trade Area and Britain does not, it will mean that we cannot export our cattle to Britain and, as we know, our cattle trade with Britain is valued at approximately £50,000,000 a year. It is very important we should safeguard ourselves in that respect.

I agree that, this being an underdeveloped country, it would be entitled to favourable consideration from those who will manage the Free Trade Area, for about 15 years. That is a very involved subject and I am not very competent to discuss it, but I could not help making these remarks. I will leave that subject, expressing the hope that, if we go into the area, our native industries will be safeguarded as much as possible. I have in mind a particular industry in my constituency, the boot and shoe industry. We have a big number of such factories in County Louth and if foreign shoes and boots are allowed in indiscriminately, it will do very much harm. However, I feel sure that those who guide our destinies in that regard will keep these matters in mind.

The Minister referred to the various ports around the coast and, in particular, said that the port of Drogheda in my constituency has a scheme pending. That scheme envisages the building of wharves and the dredging of certain sections of the river. As the Minister said, very much increased activity has been evident in this port in recent years. It is imperative that the port be brought up to modern standards. That is why the Drogheda Harbour Board is doing all it can to meet the situation. Of course, there are the usual impediments. Vested interests are complaining that their interests will be in jeopardy. For instance, there is the mussel trade, which is flourishing in Mornington; and also the salmon interests are in danger. I hope the various interests will be reconciled eventually and that this scheme will proceed. I also hope the Minister will expedite the sanctioning of the scheme and that he will issue as liberal a grant as possible.

With regard to provincial ports, it is unfortunate that in recent years they have been suffering great hardship. One of the reasons for that is the change in the import of coal. I have in mind the port of Dundalk in particular. Coal is being imported now through Dublin instead of Dundalk and that has hit Dundalk port very much. Of course, when one looks at it from another angle, one cannot quibble, because it seems that it means cheaper coal for the people and I would be the last to say that that is wrong. However, I see that £250,000 is being allotted for the improvement of various ports and harbours and I hope that will to some degree improve the situation of our provincial ports.

Mention has been made here of tourism. Together with other Deputies, I am glad to see that a sum of £40,000 has been added to the usual grant to An Bord Fáilte, with the result that they are getting £440,000 to further the tourist industry. We all agree that the advancement of tourism is very important. Any money invested in that industry is a safe investment. On an average, I would say that it yields us about £30,000,000 annually. Many people will say that a large percentage of that is in the form of remittances from emigrants. However, it is money coming in which would not come in otherwise. I would ask the Minister to impress on his colleague, the Minister for External Affairs, the importance of having those spikes planted on certain roads along the Border removed as soon as possible. Now, especially during the summer months, they are a deterrent to prospective tourists from the North of Ireland. I hope the Minister will do what he can and use what influence he has with his colleague in that regard.

I am glad to see that the recent innovation with regard to the admission of foreign coach tours has met with success. The Minister told us that already nine applications for such tours had been approved. It would be interesting to know how many had applied already. Grave fears were expressed, when this proposal was first mooted, by various sections of our people, especially the trade unions. They were afraid that the introduction of foreign coach tours might impinge on their employment prospects. I do not think there is any danger in that regard, as certain safeguards have been introduced into this system of organising coach tours. It is very interesting to note that, in spite of the admission of foreign tours, C.I.E. has increased the number of its tours by 50 per cent. Therefore, I do not think the foreign coach tours will prove to be any serious competition to the native coach tours.

With regard to loans given to hotels for the improvement of their premises, I would urge the Minister to expedite their issue. Very often, there is a time lag between the application and the issue, with the result that people who might otherwise contemplate extending their hotel premises become discouraged when they hear of neighbours having to wait a long time before the loan is issued.

In the same way as many other people, I feel that An Tóstal does not serve the purpose for which it was set up, that is, the extension of the tourist season. Personally, I think that An Tóstal is held too early in the year, when the weather is not conducive to certain functions, especially open air functions, and does not attract tourists. I see that this whole question is to be reviewed very soon, so something may come from that review. I should like to express appreciation of the many organisations and voluntary committees which during recent years did so much trojan work in local areas to make An Tóstal a success. They were imbued with a fine civic spirit and I am sure I am expressing the feelings of many people when I say that they deserve the heartiest congratulations.

I should like to refer for a moment to the working of the Factories Act which was passed a year or two ago to help factory workers. There are many sections in the Act which might hurt small concerns. I would ask the Minister to instruct his inspectors to go somewhat slowly in their interpretation of the various provisions of this Act as it applies to small concerns which are struggling to exist. It is easy for a big concern to comply with certain conditions and to set up various committees to do this and to do that, but they want to be flush with money and the small concern has not got that money.

The Minister criticised the non-setting up of safety committees in factories and it is a pity that such committees have not been set up, because, as the Minister said, they were introduced for the express purpose of safeguarding the employees. I wonder is the reason they were not set up the fact that the management of the factories have not drawn the attention of the employees to the conditions attaching to the setting up of such committees. I would think it was the responsibility of the various managements to do so and so get the thing going, because when we recall that last year there were about 1,800 accidents in various factories throughout the country, it will be realised that these are essential and that it is in the interests of the workers to co-operate as much as possible with the management in the matter.

I was interested to read recently that legislation is contemplated in relation to apprentices. I trust that before the legislation is introduced the views of both sides, managements and workers, will be examined, so that the scheme will be a success, because it is very important that we should have a good apprentice scheme.

One perfect example of success in our efforts to attract foreign industry here is the present development of mineral exploration at Avoca. I was glad to see that the Government have lent £1,750,000 for further exploration and further activity at St. Patrick's Mines. The Minister said that one great difficulty and fear which he had with regard to the immediate working of this mine on an economic basis, was that the world prices of copper had declined to a dangerous level and he expressed the hope that world prices would rise soon so that this mine would get a chance to prove itself, and to justify the confidence which has been reposed in it by the infusion of so much money. It would be a disaster if world prices continued to fall and stayed at a low level, because this would mean that all the money which the Government and the foreign industrialists had pumped into it would be lost.

We welcome the Government's decision to restore the subsidy of 50 per cent. for capital purposes with regard to rural electrification and I am glad that the less populous areas are now to be attended to. The Minister said so, and he said that about 184 areas have yet to be done, 80 having been done last year. I wonder does this restoration of the subsidy mean that the special levy will be effective in favour of the consumer? I hope it does because the Minister knows full well that there is a serious objection to it. The special charge which is imposed on the people throughout the country is very burdensome, especially for those living on the fringe of areas in which the light is installed. People are more eager now to avail of the modern amenity of electricity and I trust this will give a further impetus to the completion of rural electrification.

I should like to refer to a point in regard to my constituency, which relates to the oft-recurring matter of Greenore. The Minister has often heard about it before and I should like to refer to the answer which he gave to the House on 23rd April last, when I asked him what was the purpose of the loan which had been given to Gypsum, Limited, in County Cavan. He said that the purpose of the loan was:—

"The purchase of Greenore port and railway station, the transfer of machinery and equipment from the factory of Weatherwell, Limited, at Clondalkin to Greenore, the manufacture of plaster board at Greenore, the development of a gypsum mine at Kingscourt and the provision of working capital."

And he went on to say:—

"As it was not feasible to arrange immediately for the transfer of the plaster board manufacture to Greenore, approval was subsequently given for an alteration in the purposes of the guaranteed loan, the effect of which was to delete from the purposes already approved:—

‘the transfer of machinery and equipment from the factory of Weatherwell, Limited, at Clondalkin to Greenore, and the manufacture of plaster board at Greenore'."

That is all very well. That is a laudable explanation of the position, but it does not satisfy those who lost their employment in Greenore when that port closed down some years ago, and I have been asked to raise this question here again. Two reasons are evident for the giving of this loan. One was to help this company to set up an industry in Greenore, and the second was specifically to help the port of Greenore. That money, I presume, was to be a sort of compensation for the injury inflicted on them when the Greenore port and the Greenore line closed down. I say one reason still remains why help should be given to this port, because the people still need work. They are still out of employment and, as a matter of fact, most of them have had to emigrate, but they are hoping something will be done.

I suggest that the idea of exporting cattle from Greenore should be examined. I do not know whether it is feasible or not, but with the facilities there, the marshalling, yards and so on, I cannot see why we do not set out to develop that port and export cattle from it. It is a deepwater port and it may be the only deepwater port between Dundalk and Belfast. With regard to the exporting of cattle, perhaps the Minister might contemplate setting it up as a tuberculosis free port. I do not know whether there are any possibilities in that or not.

Some months ago, 400 tons of timber were exported from Greenore to Holland. It was timber which grew in the local Ravensdale forest and one grievance which has been mentioned to me was that no local labour was employed for the loading and the shipping of this timber. I understand—I am not sure—that the labour was supplied by the Forestry Section which actually felled the trees and transported them down to Greenore, a distance of about 12 miles, but the local people in Greenore complained that they did not get any work. I hope if any further exports of such timber products are to be made from the port, that local labour will be employed as much as possible.

With regard to Coras Tráchtála Teoranta, I suggest that they coordinate their activities with the committee which has been set up for the marketing of agricultural produce. We know that the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, recently visited London in connection with the butter crisis. The result is we are confined now to the export of 14,000 tons of butter as against the 20,000 tons provided for in the relevant agreement. I would suggest that the efforts to find additional markets for our agricultural produce should be redoubled. With that end in mind, I think that a liaison between Coras Tráchtála Teoranta and the Agricultural Marketing Committee would be helpful. Coras Tráchtála Teoranta are, perhaps, in a better position than the Marketing Committee to know where possible additional markets may be.

I cannot sit down without referring to the transport services provided for in this Estimate. Two very important steps are being taken by the Minister to try and solve this hardy annual of the transport problem. He has introduced two Bills, one relating to C.I.E. and the other relating to the G.N.R. We know, of course, that the end of the agreement with the Northern authorities is in sight. In September they will terminate that agreement with the result that we shall have to make some provision for the future carrying on of the G.N.R. system as far as the Border. I do not intend to make any reference to the Bill which the Minister has introduced. I shall reserve whatever comments I have until next week when the Second Stage will be taken.

I want to refer to some statements made this afternoon by my colleague, Deputy Faulkner, when he gave the history, as he saw it, of the developments which led up to the formation of the Dundalk Engineering Works. I should also like to take this opportunity to thank the Minister very much for what he did in that regard and to express the hope that the confidence which Deputy Faulkner has in the Minister, and which I and many others share, will be justified by events.

In the course of his speech to-day Deputy Faulkner said that the Coalition should bear, and must bear, the blame for not doing what the Minister did when he set up the Dundalk Engineering Works. We must remember that the Coalition, represented by the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Norton, consistently and persistently refused to agree to the closing of the three cross border lines closed last year. Such a proposition was put to the then Minister very often by his counterpart in Northern Ireland, but he continually refused to accept it. We know what happened when the present Minister went up. He went up in the morning, came down that night and the three cross border lines were closed. That was that. That was the contribution of the Coalition towards solving this problem; they refused to agree to the closing of the lines, but the present Minister did agree. Those are the facts.

Deputy Faulkner also referred to a number of motions protesting against the closing of these lines moved at the Louth County Council and also in the Seanad. I do not know what was Deputy Faulkner's reason for criticising those motions. It was our duty to move those motions and we did our duty as we saw it.

Deputy Faulkner also said that when the present Minister came into office, there was no plan on the Minister's desk in relation to the Dundalk works. The Minister then set up this company, and, as I said, I hope and trust very sincerely, because I know the feelings of the men down in Dundalk, that it will be a success. But Deputy Faulkner cannot accuse us in Dundalk of political agitation or of taking advantage politically of the position as it then was. They were certain protest marches made in Dundalk. Neither Senator Donegan, my colleague in Louth, nor myself had anything to do with those marches and would never have anything to do with them.

With regard to transport in general, I am sure the Minister saw in the papers last week where a section of a line, between Monaghan and Cavan, I think, which had been closed down was opened to accommodate people who wanted to go to a football match in Monaghan. Everything worked smoothly and the people were conveyed to and from the football match. I wonder would it not be possible to apply the same procedure, for instance, to the line going to Lough Derg, especially in the summer season? That, of course, would involve getting the permission of the Northern authorities to pass through their section of that particular line, but I should think that they would not object. If we were prepared to operate that line as a through service to Lough Derg for the few summer months in which the pilgrimages take place, it would help in some way.

Above all I would urge the Minister not to allow the company—C.I.E. as it will be then—to lift rails. It is a terrible mistake to lift rails and not make provision for a rainy day. God forbid that we should have another emergency in the country—a world war or a shortage of petrol—but if the rails were lifted, there would be no hope at all. The rails cannot be put down again because that would involve too much money. I do not think the maintenance of the line would involve a lot of money. It would be worth while and might pay big dividends in future years.

With regard to the Dundalk Engineering Works, leaving aside its connection with the railway, this House as we know passed a guaranteed loan of £500,000 to enable this company to be set up. We know they will not survive unless they can get foreign orders. I would think that Coras Tráchtála Teoranta might come into the picture here as well and help to get orders for this company. Since it has become more or less a private, commercial company on contract jobs, it is the biggest industry of its kind in the country and should merit special treatment. At the moment they are adapting the workshops with a view to setting in motion the various workings of the concern. Although a number of inter—union disputes are going on, I hope they will be reconciled and that they will get on with the job.

Will further financial assistance for the company be forthcoming from the Government? I doubt very much if the £500,000 which has been granted to them will last very long. I am afraid they will be coming to the Minister for a much larger sum. I hope if they ask him for further financial assistance, they will get it very willingly.

I was surprised that the Minister made no reference in his introductory statement to the report of the commission set up to investigate the possibilities of introducing atomic energy into this country. I have read extracts from the report. It was suggested that a nuclear reactor should be built and that it should be sited, above all places, in Dublin. I was very surprised at that suggestion and I hope the Minister will not implement that recommendation in relation to the location of the reactor. We are all agreed that a nuclear reactor would benefit the country. The initial financing involved in this kind of project may be prohibitive. The commission gave figures and set down the cost at £300,000 with an additional £30,000 per annum for maintenance. The setting up of this type of installation is not in the same category as the setting up of a factory. There is an excuse to a certain extent for setting up factories in Dublin and along the coast because in that way transport charges are reduced. I fail to see why a nuclear reactor should be set up in such a built-up area as Dublin.

One of the terms of reference of this commission related to the possible dangers to public health. Remembering that, I wonder why the committee recommended Dublin. I hope the Minister will avail of the opportunity, if and when the recommendation comes to be implemented, of proving that he is against centralisation by sending this reactor, if it materialises, down to somewhere in the provinces. The same argument applies to the fertiliser factory about which we have heard so much and which may be built some time.

I am surprised that the Government did not send some delegate to or have some representation at the Brussels Exhibition. Millions of people from all over the world will pass through the gates of that exhibition. The exhibition will run for about nine months and it provides us with a golden opportunity of publicising what we have to offer to the world. I can recall the brochure issued by the Industrial Development Authority recently setting out the attractions and conditions in regard to foreign industrialists who might wish to found industries here. I wonder has that brochure found its way over to Brussels. We can rest assured that there will be many industrialists knocking about that exhibition. I am surprised we have no stand and no delegate there. Perhaps the Minister will give us some explanation for that omission.

Our efforts to solve the terrible evil of unemployment will not come to fruition unless there is a calmer atmosphere in industrial relations and unless there is a greater degree of consultation between workers and employers. Each side has a contribution to make. If workers were less inclined to take strike action and employers showed more earnestness in their efforts to offset wage increases by increased production, things would improve very considerably. It must be admitted that, compared with other countries, we have a good record so far as trade disputes are concerned. It is, however, our bounden duty to co-operate, one with the other. If employers would do everything possible to increase the employment content in their respective concerns and if workers were more conscientious about doing a fair day's work for a fair day's pay this country would be a better place to live in.

Since March, 1957, the Government have been engaged in an intensive drive for the expansion of agriculture and industry. Only by those means can the country be provided with the resources necessary to finance future progress and improve social amenities.

Listening to the Minister's introductory statement here last week, I think Deputies on both sides, irrespective of Party affiliations, must admit that it was most encouraging. While there may be some complaints and a certain amount of dissatisfaction expressed, that dissatisfaction and those complaints are not due to any lack of hard work on the part of the Minister and his Department. The Minister is a practical man who uses his judgement, common sense and intelligence. He is thoroughly conversant with business affairs.

Over the past 12 months a genuine effort has been made by the Minister to solve the problems confronting the country. His task is a difficult one. It is easy for Deputies to stand up here and criticise. This is the first occasion on which I, or any Deputy representing North Mayo, had any real reason for speaking on this all-important Vote. It is the first occasion also since the foundation of this State that we in North Mayo have got any worthwhile project established in our area, namely, the E.S.B. power station at Bellacorick, together with the Minister's promise that the bogs in Bangor-Erris will be further developed. For too long in my constituency we had the red and amber lights. From the present Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Fianna Fáil Government we have at last got what we were looking for for the past 25 or 27 years, namely, the green light.

In case there may be any element of doubt in regard to this project at Bellacorick, I want to put the facts on record now. The project was initiated in 1947 by the Minister for Industry and Commerce at the time, Deputy Lemass. In 1948 it was hit with a 14 lb. sledge by the Coalition Government. In 1951 Fianna Fáil returned to power and the project was once more started. In 1954 it was hit a far more severe blow than any 14 lb. sledge could inflict, and anyone who knows the former Minister for Industry and Commerce will admit that there is a vast difference between him and a 14 lb. sledge. In 1956 the go-slow policy was put into operation in Bellacorick and it was practically closed down. We are back once more and the power station is going up. No Coalition Government will interfere with its completion. On behalf of my constituents, I wish to express to the Minister our sincere thanks and appreciation. I hope this is only the first of similar projects to be initiated in my constituency in the near future.

It is also heartening to note that the power station at Bellacorick by the time it is completed in early 1963, having regard to the rate of the growth of demand for electricity, will be fully required. I would appeal to the Minister to use his good offices to have the bogs at Bangor Erris developed as soon as possible so as to enable the married folk around Bangor Erris to get employment and thus remain at home.

In relation to the Undeveloped Areas Act, which covers all the western seaboard counties, including Mayo, it is interesting to note that industrial development is progressing favourably and also that we contribute in a fairly substantial way to exports. I cannot say that is the position in regard to North Mayo because we have no industries. One-eighth of the total emigration figures represents emigration from our county. For years we have been confronted with these two major problems, unemployment and emigration, to a greater extent than any other constituency in the Twenty-Six Counties. We have more reason than ever to crib about these two great evils and I think I am entitled to bring the position to the notice of the Minister.

Employment is the solution to our problems in North Mayo, 45 per cent. of which is in the Gaeltacht and the whole of which comes under the Undeveloped Areas Act. Forestry is one of the main activities that can help us and should be encouraged. Our bogs should also be drained and, if possible, a small factory or two erected. While I agree that factories do not grow overnight, I would ask the Minister to provide a living for our people from the natural resources of our countryside by helping us to encourage fishing.

These would be matters for other Ministers not for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

I want to urge the erection of a fish meal factory or some other factory for which we can provide the raw materials. A factory can, I believe, be erected to suit seasonal occupations, for example, the processing of wool, in the winter and of sea-rods in the summer. I do not know that is correct. I must admit in regard to North Mayo that native enterprise has not made an all-out effort to expand or develop industries. There may be some obstacles of which I am not aware or some raw materials may not be available, but these obstacles certainly do not arise from lack of capital and initiative. I would appeal to my constituents that, with the help of An Foras Tionscal and the necessary capital, they would make an all-out effort to erect a factory or two in North Mayo. If foreign investors can do the job I cannot see why, with the capital available, we cannot do the same.

I may be going back a bit far but 60 or 80 years ago we had two industries in existence in my constituency which have since been closed down. One was a copper mine and the other a granite quarry. I understand that copper sulphate dressing has had the most beneficial effects at the experimental station in Glenamoy. A copper mine was worked about 60 years ago in a place called Glencallery. I suggest that a survey should be made with a view to developing it and processing the product for use in Glenamoy, thus reducing the cost of transport to a minimum instead of bringing it from foreign lands.

The other product, granite, was available from a quarry in the Black-sod area about 80 years ago, and the existing buildings there were built from that material. I would ask the Minister if a market could be found for its products, as there is an unlimited supply. This granite can be broken into chips for pebble dashing and I understand that these chips are imported from Spain by some of our big contractors. I know of a few private residences at home where the material used for pebble dashing was imported from Spain. Would the Minister say when replying if at any time he had proposals for the erection of a factory in Newport, County Mayo, and if so would he give the source of the proposals and what the results were?

The most important step in the solution of our unemployment problem is the development of our industries. Banks and insurance companies can provide us with the necessary finance and they are both experienced in investing it wisely. For the economic development of our country, it is important that all banks and insurance companies be registered and controlled in Ireland.

In regard to the E.S.B., one of the most important statements we have heard here for a long time was the statement by the Minister that he has reintroduced the 50 per cent. subsidy for rural electrification. The electric light is a boon to the rural areas. In my constituency, the E.S.B. did a very fine job last year. I sincerely hope that the more backward areas in my constituency will be completed by the end of this year. There was a lot of complaint about the method by which they developed rural areas. I am speaking of the special charge system.

That would seem to be a matter for the board and not for the Minister.

It is very unfair that one, two or three houses should be singled out for a special charge, sometimes double what their neighbours pay. I would ask the Minister to see that that system of special charging be dispensed with, if possible, and an over-all level charge be introduced in every area.

On tourism, it is a well-known fact in Ireland that the income we receive from the tourist trade represents the second greatest of what are known as our "invisible exports". As that trade will not be injured in any way by the Free Trade Area, surely it should receive the same benefits as other overseas currency-earning industries?

I should like to mention one place in my constituency in regard to tourism, that is, Achill. The people of Achill are most industrious and progressive and they have built up a huge tourist trade in recent years. I appeal to An Bord Fáilte to give them every assistance and to help them to make a survey of their mountain lakes with a view to developing them as trout fishing lakes or tourist lakes, thus inviting in more of the sporting tourists and keeping them there as long as possible. The recent concessions announced for additional hotel bedrooms is welcomed by everyone. I hope the people of Achill and the rest of the people in my constituency will avail of this great opportunity.

I would dearly love to be in a position to-night to share the optimism of Deputy Doherty and other Fianna Fáil Deputies who spoke this evening, as well as of the Minister himself in introducing his Estimate last week. It seems to me that the Minister and the Government are completely out of touch with the people, when they paint these rosy pictures and speak of last year as "a year of recovery". I think the Minister's optimism is completely unjustified; and I say so sincerely. With the unemployment and emigration figures presented to us, with the recession of trade in towns and villages and the many closures of shops, with the almost impossible task of selling a closed shop, we have a Minister of a Fianna Fáil Government trying to paint the picture that last year was "a year of recovery". I am one of those who would join with the Minister no matter who he may be, if I honestly believed that was the case, but from my experience as a country Deputy, I know that one of the most serious problems besetting the country to-day is the decline in business in our towns and cities. I do not know how that problem is to be overcome, but every Deputy here realises that the future of our towns and villages is in jeopardy.

I am about to say something which may be unpopular, even for myself, but I say it because I believe it to be true and because I intend to make a suggestion to the Minister in the hope of helping towns and villages. I believe that one of the most disastrous things in our towns is the operation of co-operative creameries in business which should be left to the traders there. Some Minister some day soon will have to limit the activities of cooperative creameries to milk and dairy products; otherwise, we will have no towns or villages in rural Ireland.

I do not know if the Minister agrees with me in this. I have nothing to say to the creameries as such—they are useful from the farmers' point of view. I believe they should continue as effectively as at present, but should confine their activities to milk and dairy products. At present they are selling everything from a needle to an anchor. The farmer who takes his milk to the creamery just delivers the milk, goes into the store, gets his docket and takes home the goods. The creameries, as we know, are entirely free from any competition; they are competing with the ordinary tradesman maybe three or four doors away in the same village, who has to pay rates and taxes.

The serious part of the problem is that in the towns it is mostly farmers' sons and daughters who are employed. If this continues as at present, the farmer is only cutting a stick to beat himself. My remarks might be interpreted in a way that will not make me popular politically. I have no interest there, but I have an interest in the towns and villages, and I believe that unless something is done they will disappear. At present, businesses are closing there. These businesses cannot be sold and we have unemployment and entire families are emigrating. That is a situation serious enough to call for some drastic action.

One of the suggestions I make is the limiting of the activities of creameries —and, indeed, of travelling shops also. I have heard much talk here about setting up industries and much emphasis has been placed on attracting foreign capital. Personally, my belief in regard to the setting up of industries—and I had this note made before Deputy Dillon spoke, and I think he expressed the same idea in a much better way than I can—is that we should set up small industries in towns and villages. These industries would employ from 20 to 60 people. That would be better than trying to set up big industries in cities like Dublin, Cork and Limerick employing 300 or 400 people. It is a mistake to concentrate industries in cities.

By setting up small factories in the small towns we would have the advantage of local capital which I believe is available for such small industries. Labour would be available locally and would prove no problem. We all agree that unemployment is rampant and such a move would help to end it. These small industries would help to solve the housing problem also because the people would find work near home. If approached in that way, on the lines Deputy Dillon suggested, I think the proposal is worthy of the Minister's consideration.

I heard Deputy Corish, Deputy Russell and, I think, Deputy Coburn, refer to tourism and the best method of approach to it. I entirely agree with Deputy Corish's view that the best spenders we can get as tourists are the English people. I say that from a little business experience. I think the efforts of Bord Fáilte should be directed more towards encouraging the English workingman to come to this country than spending so much money trying to induce Americans to come here. I personally believe that an all-out effort should be made to attract fishermen for salmon, trout and coarse fish. In Birmingham alone there are 30,000 rod fishermen starved for an outlet for their sporting proclivities. That gives us an idea of the possibilities.

In my own town, Fermoy, a committee was set up last October to attract coarse fishermen to the Blackwater and its tributaries. That committee, representative of the different political Parties and other interests, has been remarkably successful in a few months. Already from different towns in England they have over 110 bookings. Some of these visitors have already arrived and from conversations I have had with some of them they are more than satisfied with their stay and the fishing they have had.

We should encourage more of those people to come here. I have a complaint to make about Bord Fáilte and it is only right I should make it in the Minister's presence. When that committee was set up last October the secretary on different occasions wrote to An Bord Fáilte and asked them to have a representative attend our meeting. They said they would do so as soon as possible. The secretary came to Dublin on one occasion and with me visited the offices of An Bord Fáilte and we were assured a representative would come to one of our committee meetings.

As the representative did not come, the secretary wrote a few further letters and then asked me to call to An Bord Fáilte. I did so and told them that it had been advertised and that notices had been sent out stating that a Bord Fáilte representative would attend the meeting. I was assured the official would be in Fermoy on the night of the meeting. As a matter of fact, they were so anxious in Bord Fáilte to get in touch with the secretary that they asked me if he was on the phone. I said he was not but that it did not matter because if they wrote a note to him that night he would have it in the morning.

Two hours before the meeting was due to take place a telegram was received from An Bord Fáilte saying that unfortunately none of their officers could come down. At that meeting a local domestic economy instructor was invited to give a talk to caterers who would be catering for the visitors. I felt badly about this; I hope I am expressing myself with prudence, but An Bord Fáilte fell down on the job so far as Fermoy was concerned. This is particularly pointed when we note that two of the board's representatives attended some meetings in the West of Ireland. I trust this will not be taken personally by any member of the board, but I believe the South of Ireland is being neglected in favour of the West and that An Bord Fáilte, for some reason, is diverting all its attention and energies to getting tourists to the West of Ireland. I may be right or wrong, but that is my personal belief.

Everybody agrees that investment in Irish industry is desirable. I think encouragement of such investments requires that profitable openings should be made apparent here. The openings we offer must be more profitable than those offered elsewhere because, no matter what we say, I believe nobody will come here from abroad for sentimental reasons to start a factory. While I am not as competent as others to speak on the matter, and have not the knowledge which others have of industry and commercial life, I suggest that the most useful step the Government could take towards promoting capital investment in industry is to give confidence to private enterprise by maintaining conditions of reasonable freedom. I honestly believe that if such reasonable freedom is given private enterprise will show up more to advantage.

Deputy Russell and Deputy Corish referred to the employer-worker relationship. I believe the standard of that relationship is as high here as anywhere, but I have always held that employers and workers must— especially at present—attempt to understand one another's difficulties and realise their interests are in harmony rather than divergent over a very wide field. If that realisation is there, there will be better production and both workers and employers will benefit greatly.

Finally I want to ask the Minister two questions. One is connected with the town from which I come and the other with another town in the East Cork constituency. Many representations have been made by Fermoy Progressive Association, Fermoy Urban Council and different bodies in Fermoy to get some industry for the town which, as the Minister knows, suffered much from the fact that we gained our freedom—it was one of the garrison towns. I understand that the Minister for Industry and Commerce, at some political function in Fermoy, assured the people there some years ago he would not forget Fermoy if he should again be Minister for Industry and Commerce. I want to remind him that a terrible unemployment problem affects that town just now and there is a shocking recession in trade there.

Many attempts were made by the local people to get an industry of any magnitude for Fermoy. A line they followed to the greatest extent was the possibility of getting a wood pulp factory established there. Can the Minister indicate what progress the Government have made, if any, or what developments have taken place in the past 12 months with regard to the establishment of a wood pulp industry in the country and can he indicate where it may be located?

It is generally believed in Cobh and district that a big development is to be undertaken shortly in Cobh Harbour and Haulbowline in regard to ship-building and ship repairs. It would seem that there is some secrecy surrounding that project. There is also a rumour—to what extent it is true, I do not know—that there is bungling in some Departments and that that is holding up the bringing into being of that development. I want the Minister, when replying, to clear the air in regard to that project. I hope the rumour is true that there is a big future in Cobh and Haulbowline with the new ship-building and ship-repairing business that is to start there. In view of the many rumours, the Minister should, when replying, allay the fears that, because of some departmental bungling, the development is being held up.

My main purpose in rising is to draw the attention of the Minister to an answer he gave to a question here a few months ago in connection with electricity development. I must claim the indulgence of the Chair in this regard as I noticed, a while ago, that Deputy Doherty was not allowed to proceed. I shall make a very brief reference only.

We have no way of putting our problem before the E.S.B. Our only method of approach is through the Minister, to whom the board is responsible. I do not know the Minister's view on this particular point. I should like him to declare openly, so as to influence the E.S.B., the position with regard to isolated pockets where individuals or groups of individuals were left without current when electricity development was taking place all round. It is iniquitous that they should be asked to pay a special charge. It represents a penalty on them, on top of other penalties, that, because of their isolation, hardships and difficulties—away from populous areas, and so on—they must bear a special charge.

Some time ago I was speaking to a very progressive farmer a mile from whose residence there was electricity development. Away behind his holding, there was no indication of any likely development in the foreseeable future. On inquiry, he was told the special charge to him would be between £300 and £400. That is clearly iniquitous. When I asked an E.S.B. official if the farmer paid this special charge now, would the board refund him that money when it came to the time that the place all around him was developed, I could not get an answer. I advised the farmer not to undertake such a responsibility because of the uncertainty of the investment he would make in order to get current.

We all understood, when the rural electrification scheme was initiated, that current would be brought to each person's house, irrespective of location. I understood that; I may be wrong. The Minister says that electricity development should be finished in about four years' time. The matter will then be righted. These isolated pockets will then get the benefit of current side by side with their colleagues and competitors. They have waited so long that they are entitled to that little concession.

We all sympathise with the Minister in the difficulties that face him in this trying time. His Department is very complex. He and his Department are responsible for a good deal of the activity that goes on in this State. In his comprehensive statement the Minister gave certain indications of encouragement but they are not sufficiently encouraging to dispel the gloom that is over the country. There is an increase in industrial employment. However, taken side by side with the emigration and the unemployment figures, that increase is not nearly as significant as we would like it to be. Nevertheless, we are glad there is an encouraging trend or indication, as mentioned by the Minister.

Deputy Cosgrave contended that no Government can solve the unemployment question. I believe it is true that no Government can get sufficient industries going to solve the unemployment problem. Industrial development will come only at the instance of men of enterprise who are trained technically on certain lines and who are anxious to expand and develop. I do not know whether it is altogether right that we should depend entirely on foreign capital. We might arrive at the day when we would be dependent entirely on foreigners, if that goes too far. We spend about £16,000,000 on health from taxation and about £25,000,000 for social services from taxation. It is strange that we cannot afford the few millions that would be so important and that would obviate the need for some social services and the large health services if this expenditure were ploughed into some industrial project to employ our people.

I do not know what the trouble is with this country. To my limited knowledge and experience, the avenues for employment are closing rapidly. I do not know whether it is due to automation or more efficent, more scientific and more rapid output, but it seems that we cannot employ our population here to the full. It is extraordinary. This is an age of very high competition. I know traders who, under the greatest possible difficulties, are trying to hold on to their staffs. They maintain, and I agree from my limited experience, that many trades and businesses are overcompetitive in this country. That is one of the causes of the recession we now find around us in our towns and in some of our cities. I do not know the remedy, but the trouble is there.

I appeal to the Minister, if he has any choice, say or influence in the setting up of industries, to try to interest persons in heavy industries rather than in light industries. A generation ago, except perhaps in the smaller factories that gave light employment, very few females were employed. To-day, females are competing with men for jobs, for some very important jobs, and I believe in our limited circumstances we should aim at catering for the chief breadwinner, the man who will be saddled with the responsibility of maintaining a family. I am not against female labour in any way, but in our circumstances at the moment we cannot have it both ways.

The Minister himself said we would have to provide 15,000 to 20,000 jobs every year if we were to retain our people at home. I do not know how he made that estimate but we have no chance of achieving that aim at the present time, in the near future or even in the remote future, and I do not think we can arrive at a stage when we shall be able to provide an extra 15,000 or 20,000 jobs a year. I am sure the Minister did not include in that figure provision for replacements for those retired or reaching age limits, for those forced to retire for health reasons, or for those who pass out of this world altogether. We know that the building industry is at a standstill and many people in it are about to be disemployed because of the current recession in that trade. We have reached saturation point in it long ago, and these operatives will now have to turn to other avenues of employment; where they are going to find those other avenues is the problem.

I think our failure in the past has been that we relied too much on the home market. If we had the 800,000 emigrants who left this country during the last 30 years, we would have no problem at all with regard to the disposal of our present surpluses of butter and wheat. Those emigrants would be very valuable consumers of the products of our industries. From that it can be seen that unemployment, emigration and industry are all very closely related and one is really ancillary to the other.

It is extraordinary that despite our efforts during the past 35 or 36 years we are still at a stage when we are just struggling along. We have never yet got any industries as stable and as secure as the old brewing and distilling industries, Jacobs Biscuit factory, the woollen industry, soap and candle manufacturing and so on, all of which we had before the State was set up. The reason for that is that we went in for industries for which the raw materials had to be imported, and that meant prohibitive costs for the finished articles. I do not know if that problem can be overcome or if there is still a further opening for industries closely associated with agriculture, industries for which we would be able to provide some of the necessary raw materials.

We all admit that great strides have been made and I am not blaming anybody for the failures. In the competitive world around us to-day we realise we are very limited here territorially. We are at a great disadvantage in being an isolated island away from centres of population and markets. We find it very difficult and it is not very encouraging when we see that long established free nations, that have had international contacts over the years, are themselves so economically dependant on one another that they have to come together, in order to have collective security and stability. It makes the problem all the more serious for us.

We also see that we have very few workers in the docks at present. The quay labourer, as he was known in Cork City, is becoming a thing of the past. Such avenues of employment are being closed up rapidly by the introduction of automation and by means which will obviate the need for human labour at all.

Emigration has been mentioned a great deal during the course of this debate. I was speaking to a gentleman in Cork last Saturday. He is in the vocational line and is a Kerryman. I might add, in passing, that Kerrymen come to Cork like Corkmen come to Dublin and very often stay and settle down there. This man told me that in the parish of Camp in County Kerry his own niece and nephew, aged 19 and 20, who lived on their own farm, recently left the land and went off to America. They had no reason to go but their excuse was that they had nobody in their own locality with whom they could associate. That is rather pathetic.

There was also the case of the parish west of Skibbereen to which His Lordship, the Bishop of Cork, referred. In that place all the girls have left and the boys remaining, even if they want to marry and settle down, have no one to marry. In regard to emigration I suppose the old proverb is true that far away cows have long horns, but a good deal of the fault lies with ourselves. We have no conception here of our obligations and we live on ad lib from day to day. There was a time when a man would be ashamed if he wore an English made suit or English made boots or shoes, but at the present time our civic spirit is very bad in that respect. A buy-Irish drive should be initiated to stimulate interest in our own products. Deputy Norton, when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce, appealed in this House for that very same thing. His appeal must have fallen on deaf ears because I do not see any great change.

Three months ago I was talking to a cousin of my own who was wearing a beautiful coat that she had purchased the previous day. I asked her was it Irish made. I thought it was Midleton worsted, a product of the Midleton factory in County Cork which makes the most perfect and beautiful cloth. By the look of it I thought it was a product of the Midleton factory, but there was no label on it to indicate where it was manufactured and my cousin did not know. I asked her to go back to the shop and find out, and there she was told it was an English-made garment. I was horrified, and she was more horrified. Our people have lost the national and civic spirit which they should have, and which, if it were present, would help our factories to develop.

These are the few points I want to make. I stress particularly the matter of rural electrification, and I should like the Minister to give his views on that when he is replying. Perhaps he will use his influence with the E.S.B. to get them to realise their obligations in the matter.

I should like to take up the case that Deputy Manley cited about the E.S.B. It is not peculiar to his constituency; it is very important to practically every constituency in the country. The areas concerned were not included in the original drafts that were drawn up by someone or other, setting out the parts of each county that would secure the benefit of electric power and light. It is a matter that deserves the Minister's consideration because there are people in isolated areas all over the country who, through no fault of their own, have been unable to get electric light or power. In my own constituency there are people who have repeatedly written to the E.S.B. and who actually approached me as well. I have been in touch with the E.S.B. on their behalf, asking that an inspection be made for the purposes of their getting power, but I cannot even succeed in getting the E.S.B. to visit them.

I am wondering if any specific direction went out from the Government to the E.S.B. telling them to go slow, as I know that this state of affairs has come about only during the last 12 months. Perhaps the Minister will inform the House whether or not he has given such a direction to the E.S.B. I understand more funds have been made available but, at the same time, I understand the charges about which we heard so much when we were in office will not be reduced. That I think warrants a long statement from the Minister when he replies to this debate. Such a long statement would by no means be out of place.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn