Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1958

Vol. 169 No. 3

Adjournment Debate. - Amendment of City and County Management Act.

Mr. Larkin

The necessity for raising this matter arises out of the fact that up to the present the representations made by the Dublin Corporation in connection with the vacancy for the post of city manager have met with little other than contempt. This city of ours has a population of 600,000 people. It has had the doubtful distinction since 1930, or thereabouts, of functioning under an ill-conceived type of administration—a city manager acting not only for the Dublin Corporation but for a substantial contiguous local authority, the Dublin County Council, and a third authority which is not germane to the present discussion.

This intolerable position has created serious difficulty over the years and has provided the City of Dublin with a most unsatisfactory type of administration. Nobody could conceive as reasonable a position in which the city manager or the Dublin Corporation desirous of getting information from the adjoining authority sits down and writes a letter to himself and, in due course, replies to that letter written by himself to himself as manager of the Dublin County Council. That situation has rendered the administration of the affairs of this city most difficult.

One difficulty has been the failure over the last ten years to appoint a housing architect despite all the efforts made by the members of the Dublin Corporation. The work which should appertain to a proper housing architect has been carried on by an officer not charged with that responsibility.

An Ceann Comhairle

The administration of the Dublin Corporation does not arise.

Mr. Larkin

I am pointing out that, because of the fact that the city has not got its own management, there are certain difficulties.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not hang on that peg the administration of the Dublin Corporation.

Mr. Larkin

On the 8th August, 1955, a resolution was adopted by the Dublin Corporation under the provisions of the relevant statute calling for separate local government of the city and for the appointment of a city manager solely responsible for the administration of the City of Dublin. A copy of that resolution was forwarded to the Department of Local Government. The adjoining local authority, in accordance with statutory provisions, adopted a similar resolution calling for a manager responsible solely for the administration of the county. No positive action was taken in that matter by the Department or the Minister concerned.

On 8th July, 1957, the matter came before the City Council again. A resolution was adopted appointing a deputation to wait upon the Minister. That deputation was constituted of the then Lord Mayor of Dublin, Councillor Lorcan Burke, Councillor Robert Briscoe, T.D., P.C., Councillor William Coleman, P.C., Councillor Michael G. Dempsey, Councillor Denis Larkin and Councillor Thomas Stafford. Nothing was heard as to the reception of that deputation by the Minister. Later in the same year it was decided to enlarge the deputation. As far as I am aware—if I am wrong I shall willingly express my regret to the Minister—no invitation was extended to the elected representatives of the City Council to meet the Minister and explain their difficulties. Whether correspondence passed between officials is of no immediate concern.

I hold that before appointing a new city manager the Minister should meet the local representatives and hear their case for the appointment of a city manager to administer the affairs of the city alone. I cannot read the Minister's mind, but from information available to me as a Deputy or as a member of that local authority, it seems the Minister has not given any indication of the situation and certainly has not, as far as I am aware, had any discussions with the elected public representatives.

One of the reasons I raise the matter on this occasion is that it appears the Minister has exercised the power which he possesses to refer the filling of the post to the Local Appointments Commissioners. Evidently he was not prepared to hear the reasoned representations even of members of his own Party representing the corporation before he took the steps he has taken. The fear of many of us in this city is that the position may be filled under conditions of which we are not aware, on which we have no opportunity of commenting. The citizens who are supposed to rely in municipal matters on the work of the city manager, the local council and the staff will be faced with a fait accompli. Consequently we may arrive at the situation of having a joint manager or a manager occupying two posts or occupying a dozen posts in the next 20 or 25 years and nobody can do anything about it.

The legislation referred to by the Minister this afternoon indicates that the Minister will require the concurrence of the Ministers for Health and Social Welfare because the administration in our city is so inextricably linked up that very few people know exactly at what point the various authorities start and finish. While the council was making its representations to the Minister we were informed that his colleague, the Minister for Health, is insistent on having a unified health authority. Therefore, the legislation by the Minister which appears to make it easy for him to consider favourably the representations of the local representatives may well be prejudiced to such an extent by other Ministers in the Government that he may be actually powerless.

On at least two occasions since 1955, when the acting city manager of Dublin indicated his desire to retire from office, the council, because of the unsatisfactory nature of the present position, have refused to operate the machinery for the appointment of a successor. I personally am not concerned with how the manager is appointed or who the individual is, but I am concerned that the ordinary citizens of Dublin, who will depend to a great extent on the administration by a manager, should be aware of the conditions governing the appointment and the powers and the duties of the manager.

The Minister must accept the responsibility for his Department and possibly for an act of his predecessors. I am anxious to ensure that those who represent the citizens of Dublin will be given an opportunity to meet the Minister not just as members of this House, whether of his own or of any other Party—there is no great value in that except perhaps to the members of a particular Party—but as members of the local authority, and that the Minister will consider their representations before taking action. In this case I regret very much that it appears to be a fact that the Minister has taken action without affording the elected representatives of the citizens of Dublin an opportunity of speaking to him on the matter.

That is hardly an action that would commend itself to any responsible individual and I do not think that any Minister, no matter what Government he is in, will gain any kudos by dealing with matters purely on the basis of consideration for his own political supporters. This city has a body called the Dublin Corporation which is supposed to have some authority in local affairs, but if local Government is to continue on any satisfactory basis some effort should be made to deal with this matter in a spirit of harmony. On this occasion, perhaps we do not want harmony because we have all kinds of statements being made and possibly only because in the City of Dublin a by-election is pending.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy is conscious of the time. He has spoken for 20 minutes and the Minister is entitled to ten minutes.

Mr. Larkin

In conclusion, I would ask the Minister, if he has not taken final action in the matter, to defer a definite decision pending the reception by him of the appointed representatives of the City of Dublin and consideration by him of their representations on the question of a separate manager for the City of Dublin.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Blaney)

Deputy Larkin is in some way confusing the issue when he fears that the action of filling a vacant post will preclude degrouping in the future. In fact, written into our legislation is the procedure whereby, at any time, whether the post of city manager is vacant or filled, degrouping can take place. It was in the full knowledge of that legislation and its availability to support degrouping in the future, if it were so decided, allied to the fact that three years have passed since this vacancy first came to hand, that I had the statutory request made to the Appointments Commission for the filling of the post. I want to reiterate that that in no way prejudges the issue which Deputy Larkin appears to be most concerned about, the whole question of degrouping Dublin City and County. This will not and does not in any way prejudge or prejudice what may be done in the future about that aspect of the matter.

Deputy Larkin also gave it as his considered opinion that there is much wrong with the methods by which Dublin has been governed locally since 1930, that an amount of confusion can exist and that it is a rather intricate problem tied up between the three Departments, Local Government, Health and Social Welfare. From my slight knowledge of the problem, I am inclined to agree with his statement that it is a difficult problem to see in all its details and in full perspective. It is for that reason that, in the few short months I have been in Local Government, I could not at this stage reach a decision, with my limited knowledge, as to whether or not degrouping of Dublin City and Country would be in the best interests of the city and of the county ultimately. Because of its very difficulties, I must keep away from it until I know more about it—and the Deputy will admit that there is a lot one should know about this whole problem.

On top of that, I cannot go along willy-nilly at any stage—even if I had a mind on this matter, which at this stage I have not—to make up my own mind, when the agreement of two other Ministers is necessary. That is something which we will have to deal with. Whatever is the outcome, the three Ministers and their various administrations must have some co-operation, so that the best system may be evolved. The Deputy will agree that this matter is an important and a difficult one. I do not feel myself in a position to decide—and I make no apologies to anybody for not being in possession of the full knowledge I would need—about this degrouping problem.

The Deputy also has a complaint that the deputation requested to be met by the Minister was not received. I may be wrong. Did I gather from him that this request was made some time ago? Is this a deputation which was to be met by the Minister some time ago?

Mr. Larkin

In 1957.

Mr. Blaney

I was wondering about that, as I have been trying to find out where I had fallen down. In the normal course of events, in a case where there is discretion left with the Minister in regard to a particular decision which a local authority disputes, I would be most anxious to meet local representatives, coming as a deputation from a local authority. That goes in particular for Dublin, of which I feel I know less than I do of the workings of local authorities throughout the country, which are not so complex and of which I have some experience.

Three years have gone by since this vacancy first arose. Three months was allowed to the two councils, during which either one of them the city or the county, could make a statutory request direct to the Appointments Commission for the filling of the post. Why was it not done? Why was the baby let go by default to Local Government and to the Ministers who have since been there? Having allowed the baby to get across to Local Government, if the child has been mistreated since then, I think the responsibility must to a large extent rest on those who allowed the child to go, by their own voluntary lack of effort.

Mr. Larkin

The Minister should read the files.

Mr. Blaney

I am not going into that, but that was something the council could do under the law. As to what is in the files, that is a completely different matter. The council had three months to do the job in its own way. Now, because it is being done at all, or is proposed to be done, there is exception being taken to it, on the ground that the terms of the appointment should have been discussed with the corporation. Actually, had I been made as fully aware of their desire to discuss the terms, before the announcement that the appointment was about to be filled, as I have been since, I can assure Deputies I would have met them, although what conclusion might have been reached I really do not know. Suffice it to say that the conditions which apply to the filling of this post differ in no way whatever from the conditions which have applied generally for a number of years to the filling of all similar posts of county and city manager.

Mr. Larkin

That is what we are afraid of.

Mr. Blaney

It may well be that the Deputy is afraid of it. He will agree with me that seeing what was done there, what had been allowed to operate, what had not been changed, and on which I had not got any direct recent intimation from anybody, it is rather difficult for me to find that everybody else was out of step over these years in Local Government and that I should change the step in order to put it right. I was not aware that that was so; I am not sure even yet that it is so. Again, let me say that it does not affect the degrouping position in any respect that I can visualise. The law is still there. Whatever effort the corporation would wish to make in the future can still be pursued without any prejudice because of the action taken in filling this post.

It has been said, as a finish up and possibly it was accidental—I do not know—that dealing with matters purely on the basis of Party interests in regard to local administration is a bad thing. I wonder what Deputy Larkin is trying to get at. No action I have taken and no action I may not have taken, has been dictated by the views of any Party, not to talk of my own—none whatever—and I want him to understand that clearly. I want him to understand that my apparent reluctance to deal with the degrouping problem is due to its being a matter which was before two previous Ministers for a long period, a much longer period than I have had in Local Government. My reluctance is not due to any ill-will I bear the corporation or its members—far from it—but due to my lack of complete knowledge of the entire case, which, on his own admission, is most difficult.

All I can say to Deputy Larkin and to the corporation is that, on this degrouping question—this is the main trouble—anything they have to put forward, any views they wish to express, will be considered. Indeed, if they wish to have a deputation sent in order to let me see their way of looking at things, I should certainly be only too glad to receive those people and get from them the knowledge I have not got and could not be expected to have in such a short time.

The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 24th June, 1958.