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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 3 Jul 1958

Vol. 169 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Lands.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £1,147,410 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1959, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Minister for Lands and of the Irish Land Commission (44 & 45 Vict., c. 49, sec. 46, and c. 71, sec. 4; 48 & 49 Vict., c. 73, secs. 17, 18 and 20; 54 & 55 Vict., c. 48; 3 Edw. 7, c. 37; 7 Edw. 7, c. 38 and c. 56; 9 Edw. 7, c. 42; Nos 27 and 42 of 1923; No. 25 of 1925; No. 11 of 1926; No. 19 of 1927; No. 31 of 1929; No. 11 of 1931; Nos. 33 and 38 of 1933; No. 11 of 1934; No. 41 of 1936; No. 26 of 1939; No. 12 of 1946; No. 25 of 1949; No. 16 of 1950; No. 18 of 1953; and No. 21 of 1954).

In opening the debate I shall commence with some references to the major sub-heads which are very familiar to Deputies from rural constituencies. I shall then give an account of the progress made last year and, after that, I shall go on to deal with the main aspects of administration connected with this important Vote.

The net total of £2,009,380 for 1958-59 shows a decrease of £26,890 on the corresponding figure last year.

The provision in sub-head A for salaries, wages and allowances shows a decrease of £11,088. Normal incremental increases for staff are more than offset by a welcome reduction of 33 in personnel which has been achieved since last Estimate through improved methods and the general progress made in the vesting of lands in tenant purchasers. Incidentally, staff reductions totalling 189 have been effected since 1950, notwithstanding the fact that the overall volume of current land division has remained substantially the same.

Having regard to the rate of expenditure in recent years, a reduction of £1,500 in sub-head E, for legal expenses, is considered feasible this year.

Sub-head G, for collection of warrant fees, was raised last year by £3,000 to provide against an anticipated increase in the scale of these lodgment fees for county registrars' and sheriffs' services. The increase has not materialised and it is expected that a provision of £6,500 will be sufficient this year.

The group of sub-heads, H (1) to H (4), represents the large annual recurring liability of the taxpayer towards service of land purchase debt, incurred by Land Bond issues since 1923. The total of the group comes to £855,050, representing almost 43 per cent. of the net total of the Estimate. The group includes—£720,000 for halving of annuities; £88,400 for Price Bonus to Vendors of Tenanted Land; £28,800 for Costs Fund; £17,200 for resale losses on Land Bank and analogous estates dealt with in the 1920s.

The increase of £14,500 is entirely attributable to the halving of annuities on current allotments on lands taken over under Land Acts, 1923-54. The current Land Bond interest rate is 6 per cent. and the current annuity rate is 6¼ per cent. per annum.

Sub-head I provides the funds required for improvement works on estates taken over in the course of land settlement. These works include the equipment of new holdings with buildings and the construction of roads, fences, drains, etc., which are essential for satisfactory land settlement schemes. Over 30 per cent. of the net total of the Estimate is chargeable to this sub-head. The expenditure under sub-head I last year amounted to £623,761. The Estimate provision for this year is £605,105, which is £18,656 less than the amount expended last year.

With improved arrangements and insistence on reasonable contributions of self-help from allottees who stand to benefit greatly and permanently, it is envisaged that at least as much effective work will be secured from the slightly reduced Estimate provision for this year as was forthcoming heretofore. If it should become clear during the year that additional funds are desirable to facilitate the early disposal of acquired lands, then I shall have no hesitation in putting forward revised proposals.

Sub-head Q which shows an increase of £1,400 is another accumulating statutory commitment. Its purpose is to make good to the Land Bond Fund and Local Loans Fund certain deficiencies which continue to arise under Land Act, 1950. Formerly, where the Land Commission acquired a large vested holding for division, the existing purchase annuity was redeemed out of the owner's purchase money and the Land Bond Fund or Local Loans Fund was recouped if that annuity had been payable to either of these funds. Since 1950, existing annuities are no longer recoverable out of owners' purchase moneys. Instead, the existing annuities are formally terminated, being replaced by the new comprehensive annuities payable by the allottees. Cesser of such existing annuities has to be made good to the Land Bond Fund and Local Loans Fund to keep them in balance.

Sub-head R provides a limited amount of cash to enable the Land Commission to purchase lands in the open market for migrants and rundale purposes. Operations under this sub-head were at a standstill as an economy measure between July, 1956, and March, 1958. I have recently authorised a reopening of this business and it will be given a further trial at about the same level of funds formerly provided.

Sub-head S provides the money to pay gratuities to persons displaced from their employment on estates as a result of acquisition by the Land Commission. There has been a downward trend in the size of acquired estates and the number losing employment has fallen. A total of £14,643 has been paid by the Land Commission by way of gratuities to 137 persons since the system was introduced in 1950.

The other sub-heads are mostly self-explanatory and unchanged from last year.

I now turn to the general work of the Land Commission in the course of the past year. On the tenanted land side, the process of completing land purchase, that is, the conversion of tenants into proprietors of their holdings, is continuing at a satisfactory rate. Of 112,000 tenanted holdings which vested in the Land Commission since 1923, only about 12,000 now await revesting in the tenants. In other words, 90 per cent. of all tenanted holdings which vested in the Land Commission under the Land Acts, 1923-54, have been resold to the occupying tenants for advances being repaid by long-term purchase annuities, leaving an outstanding residue of 10 per cent., comprising exceptionally difficult cases, mostly in the western congested districts. As far as 1923 Act tenanted land is concerned, the work has been virtually completed in the 14 counties of Carlow, Cavan, Kildare, Kilkenny, Laois, Leitrim, Limerick, Longford, Louth, Meath, Monaghan, Westmeath, Wexford and Wicklow. The outstanding residue of tenanted land is made up of 12,000 holdings under the 1923 Act and an ultimate residue of 4,000 holdings on estates of the former Congested Districts Board. These outstanding 16,000 tenanted holdings represent the pending residual hard core of over 400,000 State-conducted sale transactions. Completion of the outstanding 16,000 cases is not an easy or inexpensive task. About one-half of them are in rundale. They are all affected in some way by projected acquisitions, migrations, rearrangement negotiations or other improvement schemes. Their completion is being pushed ahead as rapidly as the available resources in land and staff permit.

As regards land settlement, the provisional returns are that, in the year ended 31st March last, an area of 27,813 acres was acquired, resumed, or taken over by the Land Commission, and an area of 29,604 acres was distributed amongst 1,686 allottees. The corresponding figures for the year ended 31st March, 1957, were 28,756 acres taken over and 30,510 acres distributed amongst 1,452 allottees. Taking account of late seasonal weather, the allotment programme extended into April and May this year, and the total area allotted in the 14 months, 1st April, 1957, to 31st May, 1958, inclusive, was, in round figures, 41,000 acres. The total allotment in the previous corresponding 14-month period, viz. 1st April, 1956, to 31st May, 1957, was 36,000 acres.

There were 438 holdings in rundale or intermixed plots rearranged during the year with the co-operation of the tenants, this result being quite satisfactory. The number of holdings which can be rearranged is largely beyond the control of the Land Commission, as the work depends on voluntary co-operation of the tenants themselves. Rearrangement is very delicately-poised work calling for much patience, tact and resourcefulness on the part of the inspectorate. Difficulties and delays are inevitable and lack of co-operation on the part of an individual tenant can often result in the postponement or revision of an entire scheme.

As the work of rearrangement proceeds and as the hard core of intermixed holdings is being reached, the problem of dealing with outstanding cases inevitably becomes more difficult. My investigations have revealed that the precise reasons for this vary from one district to another. Generally speaking, however, the main factors impeding progress are the scarcity of suitable land, in the rundale districts, with which to enlarge the small holdings and reluctance on the part of suitable rundale holders to migrate to other districts, as well as sometimes a want of full co-operation on the part of the tenants. Nevertheless, over the past eight years, a total of almost 3,500 rundale holdings has been rearranged by the Land Commission, the vast bulk being substantially enlarged in size and equipped with necessary buildings and other improvements, in the process of rearrangement.

Deputies will be aware, of course, that the great bulk of land settlement is centred around the nine congested counties, viz. the five counties of Connacht and Donegal, Cork, Clare and Kerry. Of the total area of 29,604 acres allotted in the year ended 31st March last, about 21,000 acres were distributed in the nine congested counties.

During the past year, 40 long-distance and 35 short-distance migrations were effected. Migration is inseparable from rearrangement of rundale, it being absolutely essential to take out a few migrants from almost any group of intermixed holdings before a satisfactory rearrangement scheme can be formulated for them. As far as practicable, the Land Commission endeavour to find migrants who are already proficient farmers above the average, but, to deal at all with rundale villages, the field of selection of the migrants is rather limited. Migration is completely voluntary and it is not always the best farmers who are prepared to move. I am confident that the number of migrants during the current year will show a substantial increase on last year.

More than 1,100 turbary rights were provided by the Land Commission. Some 6,500 properties—comprising holdings, parcels and rights of turbary —were vested in tenant-purchasers during the year.

There were 212 new dwellinghouses and 264 outoffices built by or with assistance from the Land Commission, the total expenditure on buildings amounting to approximately £273,000.

I referred last year to the question of Land Commission housing designs and stated that, before going ahead with some new plans which had been contemplated, I wished to get the views of the Irish Countrywomen's Association. As a result, revised plans have been drawn up, following collaboration between architects of the Office of Public Works and the Irish Countrywomen's Association. The construction of prototypes, on an experimental basis, according to the revised plans, will shortly be put in hands.

As I announced some months ago, the Government has decided to provide relief measures for the farmers whose holdings in the Shannon Valley, between Athlone and Meelick, in counties Galway, Roscommon, Westmeath and Offaly, are liable to flooding. Planning of technical details for the individual cases is well advanced. Some migrations and resettlements will be involved, as well as the construction of buildings on about 70 farms seriously affected. The cost of the works, as distinct from land, will be in the region of £80,000 to £100,000, which will be defrayed from the National Development Fund.

The position as regards collection of land purchase annuities continues to be very satisfactory. At 31st March, 1958, arrears outstanding amounted to £141,690 being a reduction of £872 on the corresponding figure last year. The efficiency of the collection organisation has been maintained at the usual high level during the year.

In my statement on this Estimate last year, I expressed concern about delay in the allotment of land taken over for division. I had, at that time, given directions in relation to the early disposal of unallotted lands in two of the principal counties, namely, Roscommon and Tipperary. I am glad to be able to inform the House now that good progress has since been made towards the disposal of lands on hands —especially arable lands—in these counties; and the achievements to date reflect great credit on the officials concerned.

In County Roscommon, an area of 2,100 acres was allotted in the year ended 31st March last—compared with 1,135 acres in 1956-57—and in County Tipperary, an area of almost 1,000 acres was allotted last year compared with 874 acres in the previous year. In both counties, the areas allotted in 1957-58 were almost entirely arable land. Further areas of 2,700 acres in Roscommon and 980 acres in Tipperary were allotted during April and May, 1958. The effort to dispose of the backlog of lands on hands will be sustained; and I have directed that arable lands acquired before 1st April last in all counties should generally be disposed of by March, 1960.

The allotment of lands acquired by the Land Commission in the future will be hastened to the utmost, so as to ensure that approved allottees are put into possession of their parcels speedily. There will necessarily have to be some exceptions—for example, relatively small lots of land taken over for rearrangement purposes cannot be finally allotted until full rearrangement proposals are integrated for the particular neighbourhood, with the co-operation of all concerned.

Examination of the overall position regarding lands on hands inevitably took some time, and the results of my directions for their disposal will not be really evident until the end of the current financial year. The allotment figures for April and May, 1958, however, suggest that the prospects for the whole year are very bright.

With a view to securing greater output from lands divided by the Land Commission, every effort must be made in future to ensure that allottees avail themselves to the full of the advisory services provided by the Department of Agriculture and county committees of agriculture. In the case of migrants, it was felt that some advance instruction on good farming methods might stimulate them to seek this valuable assistance. Accordingly, prospective migrants were encouraged last autumn to take advantage of two short courses provided at Athenry Agricultural Station by arrangement with the Department of Agriculture.

A number of prospective migrants attended these courses—the cost of which, per individual, was a nominal £2 a week for maintenance—and it is hoped to arrange a further series of these special courses in the coming winter. The majority of migrants come from small holdings, generally comprising poor quality land, and the change-over to working a Land Commission standard holding may be a considerable one for them, especially in the early years following migration until they settle down in their new environment. Courses on practical farming such as those arranged at Athenry should be very beneficial in equipping them to meet the challenge of their new holdings but it will not be possible for a few years to assess the full advantages of these courses.

Land Commission allotments are made to selected applicants on moderate repayment terms. The funds available for land settlement are necessarily limited and, in order to secure the maximum land division from the amount of money available, it has been decided that future allottees of parcels given as enlargements will be required to make reasonable contributions by way of labour and materials towards essential improvements works.

Special consideration was given during the past year to the problem of minimising the disruptive effects of the compulsory acquisition powers of the Land Commission. Despite the long-term benefits resulting from the acquisition and division of land which is not being worked satisfactorily, some detrimental effects can occur from time to time during the period in which the acquisition process is under way.

At 1st April, 1957, the Land Commission inspectorate were faced with the formidable task of inspecting and reporting on 938 properties which were on the books for consideration with a view to acquisition. Of these cases, 516 were at a preliminary stage and 422 were at a more advanced stage. The total number represented far more than the inspectorate could hope to deal with expeditiously. With the constant addition of new cases, the overall position was seriously disimproving. In effect, it meant that almost 1,000 existing landowners and several thousand potential applicants were in a very unsettled position.

After a thorough examination, substantial procedural changes were introduced in the course of the past year. They relate to the period preceding the commissioners' decision as to whether, or not, to negotiate for purchase or institute acquisition proceedings. After that stage, the procedure is largely governed by statute. Under the old system, both voluntary and compulsory subjects generally underwent the same two successive report stages, namely, (1) preliminary and (2) suitability and price. That system involved two visits by the reporting inspector. A detailed valuation of the lands was invariably made at the suitability-and-price stage, although further progress may not have been indicated.

Under the new system, voluntary and compulsory subjects receive distinct treatment, there being only one report stage, namely purchase and acquisition. This new arrangement generally involves only one visit by the reporting inspector compared with two visits previously. A detailed valuation of the lands is omitted, unless there are sound indications that further progress towards purchase is feasible. Obviously, the new system has decided advantages from the standpoint of efficiency. The general aim will be that each acquisition case will be investigated and completed, up to price-fixation, within about six months. It is of the utmost importance that effort and expense will not be dissipated, particularly on trivial cases.

Having improved the inspection procedure, the next step was to afford the inspectorate an opportunity of clearing off the accumulated arrears. With about 45,000 acres arable on hands and with over 900 pending acquisition cases in the queue, it was time to be realistic. The investigation of new compulsory acquisition cases had to be temporarily suspended but any lands offered voluntarily were not affected. This course has been fully justified by the results. By 31st March, 1958, the figure for acquisition reports outstanding had fallen from 938 to 372—a reduction of 60 per cent. After another few months, it is expected that the arrear on the acquisition side will have been entirely eliminated. In some districts, clearance of arrears of work has already been accomplished. A return to normal working has followed in these districts. Elsewhere, the position is being kept under close review.

I also expressed concern last year about the long time which may elapse between the inspection of an estate and ultimate payment of the purchase money. On investigation, I have found that the time-lag is divisible into two stages—first, the period up to the giving of possession to the Land Commission; and secondly, the period from possession onwards. Up to last year, when the procedural changes to which I have referred were introduced, the average time taken in completing the first and second stages was three years and two and a half years respectively, or a total of five and a half years. Statutory periods for objections and appeals cannot be set aside by the Land Commission and allowance must be made for adjournments granted to objectors and applicants in the court proceedings. Nevertheless, I am confident that the procedural changes referred to earlier will help to shorten substantially the initial period of three years up to possession.

Only when the second stage is reached, that is after possession of the land is obtained, can allocation of the purchase money arise, and there the average delay of two and a half years is something for which the Land Commission are not responsible. It is for the owners themselves to see that they give their solicitors prompt and effective instructions about title. My Department is at present in communication with the Incorporated Law Society in relation to this side of the business.

I should like, at this stage, to say a few words about the extent of the congestion problem confronting the Land Commission and also to consider the practical steps which can be taken towards its alleviation in the immediate future. I speak of alleviation rather than solution, simply because congestion in this country cannot be solved in terms of land alone. According to the latest available figures of 379,000 holdings in the State, 215,000, or nearly 57 per cent., have rateable valuations between £2 and £20. In the nine congested counties, some 87,000 holdings are between £2 and £10 rateable valuation.

Since 1939, the aim of the land settlement policy of successive Governments has been the relief of congestion, with special emphasis on the scheduled congested districts. The Land Commission have been migrating as many tenants as possible each year as part of the answer to the congestion problem. Likewise, they have been engaged in the rearrangement or enlargement of about 1,500 small holdings annually. These measures do much to ease the extensive congestion in western districts. It is estimated that there are still about 8,000 unvested intermixed holdings in the nine congested counties and, at the recent rate of progress, it will take 15 years to complete their rearrangement.

Some idea of the magnitude of the general problem of small holdings uncovers itself in the figure of 165,000 as the number of holdings above one acre but not exceeding 30 acres: to enlarge these by no more than a dozen acres would require about 2,000,000 acres, that is one-sixth of the total area of arable land in the country. The fact is that the amount of land available for land settlement purposes is limited but the demand is almost unlimited. The current Land Commission programme catering for an intake and division of about 25,000 acres annually is as realistic as overall conditions permit.

For many years past, in the more western parts of the congested districts, the Land Commission have worked to a standard of £10 rateable valuation, that is to say, they have aimed at creating new units of that size or enlarging existing units as far as possible to that size. It has often been suggested that this standard is too low and, therefore, I have had this whole problem re-examined. Unfortunately, I have found that in most districts the intensity of congestion and the scarcity of land for division make it quite impractical to raise the standard. Indeed, in many areas the Land Commission have found it quite impracticable to achieve even this modest standard and have been obliged to adopt a lower one. For almost all these districts, therefore, there can be no question of going beyond the £10 rateable valuation standard.

In my examination of Land Commission problems, I am bound to face the unpleasant fact that the size of what is considered an economic farm has increased since the war. In this we must be realistic. While there will always be ancillary employment on public works, the income from these, in the long run, will not prevent the tendency for farms to become larger as the decades pass—even if the total population remains stable or slightly increases.

Unemployment assistance, moreover, should not be included in the computation as a permanent income, particularly as it does not appear to restrain emigration.

When I ask the question in the Midlands: "What is an economic farm?" most reply, "50 to 60 acres". But, of course, one-third of the farmers in the 30-50 acre class are making the incomes of one-third in the 50-100 acre class through greater use of fertilisers.

In examining the position, the prevailing standard of £10 valuation in the congested areas seems abnormally small. This very low standard can be looked at from two standpoints. It can be said that each beneficiary is given a good start and can progress from there onwards; at least the beneficiaries have a sound foundation in the shape of a good home and a compact farm. Or alternatively, one can say that the valuation is absolutely too low.

I have come to the conclusion that the £10 standard should be raised wherever practicable and this will henceforth be done up to a limit of £15. Because of the scarcity of available land in these acutely congested districts, I am not overoptimistic as to the results. In the remaining parts of the country, the standard of 33 acres of good land remains in force and, again, if the farmers selected are ambitious, a reasonable income can be secured.

Concluding on the subject of farm size, I might point out that all European countries carrying out consolidation of holdings have had to keep their standards low—notably France, Sweden and the Netherlands.

It is essential that the congestion problem be regarded with great realism. The number of 50 to 200 acre farms is increasing; not so the farms above 200 acres. I mention this point because occasionally I hear reference to big farmers increasing their property. There are, of course, also sales and sub-divisions to balance these enlargements. Consolidation of small holdings by the management of a number of farms by one person has proceeded rapidly in the western areas. The number of women left on the smaller farms irrevocably dictates the growth in the number of larger farms 30 years from now.

The Land Commission is most unlikely to secure greater subventions in the future for its work. The pool of badly worked land is almost certain to diminish. I asked the Land Commission to tell me whether, without limit to staff or finance, the intake of land could be substantially increased, assuming, of course, that the same regulations applied. While it is difficult to be definite I have been given an opinion that the intake might increase for a time by about 25 per cent. but it will be clear to all that the amount of land which can be acquired is limited.

I should make it clear beyond all doubt that the Government stands for the free sale of land when properly worked. Any agitation or interference in the normal pattern of land sales will be resisted as in the past. The Land Commission work has been confined in the past decade and will be confined in the future to the problem of alleviating the intense congestion in the West and to acquiring the larger tracts of badly worked land and of voluntarily offered land for this purpose and for the relief of local congestion. The result of this work, involving gifts of £400 to £3,000 per holding, must be directed so as to secure greater production as an investment in providing total employment.

I am doing all I can to see that the pattern of land division will conform to this concept more and more in the future and that the available funds are spent in the most productive manner.

Looking back on the results of land division in the past, while there can be seen many enlarged or new holdings producing more than before, the general picture as reported by the late Seán Moylan could not prove that production on small farms had increased. Thirteen per cent. of the land allotted in a sample area is now let.

I have made a close examination of the Land Commission methods of allocation for some years past and quite obviously as the pool of land has diminished the emphasis on the farming competence of potential allottees has been steadily increasing when allocating land. For example, I have been reading recent reports on allottees in order to analyse the reasons for including sub-standard landholders and I have noted that the frequent use of fertiliser is noted together with other technical features. This would seem reasonable. A small farm can reap just as good a harvest of grass or crops from its use as a big farm. Credit for fertilisers, I am told, is available to most in one form or another. The size of the farm does not make it more difficult to use fertilisers.

If land settlement is to achieve its purpose, two objectives must be secured. Badly worked land must be acquired to provide a better living for progressive uneconomic landholders. The allottees who receive a large gift, the largest the State offers to a family unit for social purposes, of from £36 to £87 per acre, should, by far greater production, help to employ some of the thousands who, as in other countries, will inevitably leave the farms to secure employment in industry.

The farmer creates the purchasing power which makes possible the employment of some of his family who will leave even if he secures a larger holding because on 33 acre holdings there can be no sub-division.

The standard of competence required should relate to the higher standards achieved in the general area, to the improvements in techniques carried out during recent years and allowing for local conditions of soil and exposure. In other words, under present practice the best group of small farmers in the area naturally set the standard for the remainder in the area when land is being allotted.

I have informed the Land Commission that the increasingly high standard of competence required of potential allottees—quite clearly emerging from allotments made in the last decade— can be continued and applied progressively. Having reviewed the general facts relating to land tenure in the country, I can sum up by saying that the demand for land is beyond the capacity of the Land Commission to satisfy. The same position obtains in many other countries. Not only do sub-standard landholders press for consideration of their claims but there are demands from landless men and sons of farmers for land.

With such a heavy burden of claims already, I should make it clear that to add these other classes generally to a land inspector's list from which to make a choice when dividing an estate only aggravates the already difficult task of relieving existing congestion. While there may be exceptional cases, the fact remains that in any ordinary land division the number of applications from the local uneconomic landholders exceeds the supply of land and a careful choice has to be made.

In the last 12 months, some farmers' organisations and individual commentators have been adverting to the need for providing a farming ladder by means of which young farmers with a belief in scientific methods could save money and secure land in the open market. Many interested in land usage have commented on the unique systems of conacre and 11 months grazing which give no security to the taker and too frequently reduce the fertility of the land. It is evident that a large proportion of the land affected is being let as a matter of temporary convenience and that the Land Commission, under the law, could not take successful acquisition proceedings in a very large number of these cases; in many others they would be proceeding for very small areas for allotment to one or two individuals—a completely uneconomic and socially undesirable policy.

I have been addressing my mind to the subject of the letting of lands in order to help the progressive landless farmer and to stimulate the better working of let land.

The existing law leaves it possible for the majority of landowners to make lettings for a term of years subject only to Land Commission approval and I would like the public to know that the Land Commission will readily grant approval to suitable letting contracts except, of course, where they see too much land being concentrated in the hands of one person or of persons not ordinarily engaged in agriculture. I feel that landowners, with surplus land for letting, can profitably avail themselves of this facility both for the better working of their own lands and in the interests of national production and rural progress.

In order not to interfere with the relief of congestion, these provisions will mainly operate outside the scheduled congested districts. Within these districts applications for permission to let lands will have to be considered in the light of the Land Commission's need to acquire land for the relief of local congestion. I hope that this encouragement of longer lettings will result in significant changes for the better in the general pattern of landholding, soil conservation and overall production.

The Minister's account of the working of the Land Commission for the past 12 months follows the pattern which has obtained for the past six, seven or eight years. The amount of land taken up is 27,800 acres and the amount allotted is almost 30,000 acres. The amount of land rearranged is 438 acres and that figure appears to me to be down somewhat. The number was in the neighbourhood of 600 acres. I suppose the Minister will tell me that because the work of the Land Commission has been brought down to the hard core, and to the more difficult cases, the work of the inspectors is more difficult. I quite admit that. That must be the case, but I would be more pleased if the number he gave us as rearranged last year was a bit higher. I should like to hear the Minister on that point when he is replying.

He said that 3,500 holdings have been rearranged and I take it finally settled. Even if it took eight years, since 1948 when I first came in close contact with the Land Commission, to do that it is a big bite out of the hard core. The Minister says there are 16,000 holdings outstanding yet, but I have always questioned the accuracy of that figure because in the congested areas, and in the uncongested areas also, each holding that has a receivable order in the Land Commission, or a folio in the Land Registry Office, is counted as a separate living for a person. Such is not the case. I am sure the Minister is aware it is not. I know one person who has 11 receivable orders and, therefore, that is counted as having 11 holdings. I contest this figure of 16,000 holdings as I believe the number is much smaller. The only way to tackle this question and to resolve it would be to ask the Land Commission inspectors to give the Minister an accurate return of the lands needing rearrangement, and the number of lands each man has.

In the case I have mentioned this man had 11 receivable orders, some as low as 6d. and 9d., and they amounted to something in the region of £3 10s. for the total. The Minister would be well advised to look into that question. No doubt the figures are 16,000 holdings according to the Land Commission, but that does not mean there are 16,000 families needing rearrangement. That would be a formidable figure at this time of the world's history.

I did not hear the Minister lay any emphasis on the relief of congestion, and I hope that was only an oversight on his part. I admit the Land Commission was not established to relieve congestion. In the dim and distant past when its purpose was, No. 1, to make the tenant farmer his own proprietor and, No. 2, to fix a judicial rent, as that work was cleared up other work was found for the Land Commission. The Land Commission found that making a tenant farmer a proprietor on a holding of a couple of shillings valuation was not good enough, and in 1907 or 1908 it was realised that a farmer had to have a holding of reasonable size on which to live. The Congested Districts Board or the Estates Board at that time had to turn their attention to that problem.

Knowing the congested districts, and knowing the uninformed criticism that the Minister and his Department are likely to meet, I want to say I sympathise with the Minister in the job he has on hands. I would advise him not to mind any of the uninformed criticism and to go ahead with the work. It is slow and tough work but the Minister should not pay any heed, even to Deputies, who advise steamroller methods. I do not know what the intentions of such Deputies are. I can only form my opinions from the words they have used as recorded in the Official Report, and year after year they have been advising Ministers for Lands, before my time and after my time, to take a short cut. The short cut is adopted only in one country in the world and that is Russia and we do not want Russia's method adopted here.

I should be greatly surprised if this debate concludes without a reference being made to the Land Commission as antiquated and out-dated, and that it would be a simple solution to grab the land and divide it. I expect Deputies who make these statements mean well. I suppose that is their solution for settling the question, but I am sure the Minister will give heed to what I said to him last year during the course of this debate when I told him he was the custodian of what is very dear to every farmer in Ireland, namely, security of tenure.

Hear, hear!

The Minister is the custodian of that right and I would ask him to let the advice I am sure he will get during the course of this debate slide off his shoulders, as I let it slide off mine. I remember a Deputy saying in this House he would not agree that any farmer should own his own land. I remember Deputies trying to fix a limit on how much property a man should own. That is very annoying if a Minister is genuinely interested in going ahead with the work of relieving congestion. I know it is a slow job and I have every sympathy with the Minister if he has to put up with that kind of criticism on the one hand, and if he gets very little help on the other hand from the sources of that criticism.

I do not want to adopt the attitude of criticising and preaching piously to the Minister but I do want to make one suggestion to him. This suggestion comes from a realisation that, as time goes on, the acquisition of lands is becoming harder and more difficult. I have often been puzzled that the Land Commission have succeeded in acquiring as much land as they have acquired with the method employed. They have only one method of acquiring land and that is by due process of law. They have another method but they have never asked this House to sanction it. I would suggest that the hard core of congestion that remains would be something in the region of 11,000 or 12,000 holdings, rather than the 16,000 the Minister has mentioned. I am speaking of house holdings rather than land holdings which receive receivable orders under the Land Commission.

I think the time has come to finish the problem of congestion once and for all and I suggest that the Minister use Section 27 of the 1950 Act to a large extent for three, four or five years. If necessary he should spend a fairly large sum of money, no matter what it costs. He should purchase 1,000 holdings each year for four or five years and have migrations on a big scale out of the remaining congested areas. Each holding may cost £1,000, and in the case of the Land Commission may cost £2,000 each. At the rate of 1,000 holdings a year that would cost £1,000,000 or £2,000,000, but even though it cost that much for three or four years it would settle the question once and for all.

I should like the Minister to consider that suggestion and see if it is feasible. I know he will have the Department of Finance facing him like a stone wall but there is no use in letting the remaining 10,000 or 11,000 vanish. All these people on small holdings have to make ends meet. They give half their attention to their little holdings but, in order to make a living for themselves, their wives and families, they have to find outside work with the county council, with the Department of Forestry or with any other source of employment that God happens to send into their localities. We shall lose 10,000 or 12,000 of our very hardiest people if we do not take steps to provide them with holdings now.

The Minister has said the £10 valuation ceiling is to be raised to £15 wherever practicable but I wish he would be more definite about it. You cannot give what you have not got. You cannot increase the size of a holding from one of a valuation of £5 to one of a valuation of £12 or £15 if you do not get the co-operation of the tenants.

I do not want to criticise the Land Commission or the Minister, or to praise them. I want to make a concrete suggestion that may help the Minister. It would cost a lot of money to do what I say. The Minister will be told that if he goes into the open market and purchases 1,000 holdings in any year, he will inflate the price of land, that the moment the Land Commission inspectors appear at the auction, the price goes up. When I was Minister for Lands, during the passage of the 1950 Act, the darkest and gloomiest prophecies were uttered from this side of the House as well as from my own side. None of those prophecies has materialised. The Minister has the means. I left machinery in the 1950 Act—Section 27. Let him purchase the land for cash. There is no question of the disposal of the holdings because the lands purchased under Section 27 of the 1950 Act can be used only for migrants, No. 1, or for rearrangement, No. 2. The machinery is available to the Minister and all he needs is the money to do it.

The Minister is probably saying to himself that I could have done this during the period I was Minister. At that time, it was not so difficult to get land by the ordinary process of acquisition and resumption; but, according as the pool of land is drying up and while the legal profession find loopholes in the various Land Acts, it becomes increasingly difficult for the Land Commission to acquire land, which causes delay in acquisition and resumption. The Land Commission are being brought virtually to a standstill. The only remedy is to scrap the old method of relieving congestion and to adopt a new way. It will not hurt anyone. It will not get people's backs up or cause a scare amongst people that their lands will be acquired, if the Minister goes into the open market to purchase land advertised in the papers. A bold bid should be made for two to five years. The work of the Land Commission in relieving congestion could then be brought to a close.

The Minister has told us that he has closed down on acquisition and resumption for the present in order to enable him to dispose of what is on hands now.

The Deputy misunderstood me. If he reads it carefully, he will see that we continued to acquire but reduced the rate of purchase in areas where there was a great number of arrears.

While I often ground my teeth in anger at delays in land division, damage can be done by too hasty division in certain cases. It is not always an easy matter for the inspector in an area to settle an estate or portion of an estate. Sometimes land is kept on hand for what seems a long period before it is allotted because they are waiting to get sufficient land in the locality so as to be able to make a decent rearrangement scheme. If the Minister hustles the inspectors too much in such cases, they will be able to make only a half-settlement or a bad settlement, whereas, if a little patience were exercised, a good and lasting settlement could be made. While speed is admirable and the Minister is to be applauded for it, in some instances, he should be guided entirely by the inspectors who know an area well, who know what is likely to happen. To rush out and settle an area for the sake of wiping it off the slate might result in a very poor settlement being made for the townland concerned.

The Minister said:—

"The funds available for land settlement are necessarily limited and, in order to secure the maximum land division from the amount of money available, it has been decided that future allottees of parcels given as enlargements will be required to make reasonable contributions by way of labour and materials towards essential improvements works."

Does the Minister mean that the allottee will be asked to fence and drain the land and carry out improvement work that the Land Commission have carried out heretofore under sub-head I? If that is the case, the Minister does not understand the difficulties besetting the type of people he is setting out to relieve. Let the Minister consider the kind of livelihood a man would have whose valuation is £3, £4 or £5, whose holding is a mountainy holding, who has to maintain a wife and family and who has to spend six months of the year in England in order to supplement his income. Is that the type of person he will ask to contribute?

Not that sort of people. Only in a limited way, where it is reasonable, and not in the rearrangement. I do not think it could be done in the rearrangement.

Without being critical, I want to give the Minister the benefit of my opinion. That may save a penny all right, but, by prolonging the work of the Land Commission, it will cost £1. I do hope that tenants in the congested areas will not be asked to contribute. The Congested Districts Board, during the first world war or about that time, when the British Government found money was scarce, tried to get the tenants to improve their allotments. It proved a ghastly failure. It is not easy for people living on small holdings to keep their own fences in repair, much less to make a new fence on a new piece of land.

On the question of the £10 valuation ceiling, while holdings of that valuation in some areas are quite economic, in other areas they are not. For instance, a holding with a valuation of £10 in Rush, within easy reach of the City of Dublin, where there is a first-class market for farm produce and which is farmed intensively, would be a reasonably good holding and might give a very good livelihood, whereas holdings of that valuation in other areas might be absolutely below the level. More power to the Minister in raising it to £15 and to £50, if he could. I would have done the same. The fact is that the Land Commission can give out only what they have on hands. A shopkeeper cannot sell goods he has not got. The same applies to the Land Commission. They cannot give out more land than they have. The Minister could remove the £10 ceiling and it would not make the slightest difference. The Land Commission will bring it up as far as possible.

There is one matter to which the Minister did not advert. I do not think any Minister has adverted to it for a long time. It is the money which is held by the Public Trustee which represents the price of land taken over by the Land Commission. Would the Minister take this opportunity to make a statement in order to clear the air on that question? I know all about it. The Land Commission is blamed for holding the money. I should like the Minister to make a forthright statement as to who is at fault. I do not care who gets hurt. The landowners are being fooled, on the one hand; the Land Commission are being blamed, on the other hand. The real culprits have never yet been exposed.

If I remember correctly, there is something like £600,000 land purchase money lying in the hands of the Public Trustee. The Land Commission have paid out money on the taking over of the land. They have nothing further to do with it. It is obviously the responsibility of the landowner to get that money out, but in many cases he does not understand what is preventing him from doing it, and he is inclined to blame the Land Commission. The Minister should make a forthright statement regardless of whom he hurts. He will not hurt anyone except those who deserve to be hurt badly.

I hope I will not fall foul of the Chair in what I am going to say now on the question of the building of Land Commission houses. The Minister for Local Government has decided not to give a water and sanitation grant, to which the builder of every house was entitled, to those who build houses with a Land Commission grant.

I suppose this idea saves about £300 or £400 a year, if it saves that, to the Government. There are two people side by side in the same townland. One builds his house with the Local Government grant and gets a water and sanitation grant, £40 for one and £20 for the other. As regards the other, the Land Commission are making a rearrangement to take him out of his poverty because he cannot do so himself. They give him a grant to build his house, but the Minister for Local Government will not give a water and sanitation grant.

The Minister should point out to his colleague how ridiculous and stupid that regulation is, no matter who made it. It was probably made by some bright angel in the Custom House who suddenly spotted that a man who gets a Land Commission grant gets £60 or £80 more than the man who gets a grant from the Department of Local Government. That money given by the Land Commission represents an inducement to some poor man to build a dwelling house which he could not afford otherwise. However, the joke of it all is that if this man in the course of the erection of the Land Commission house bores suitable holes in the wall and then plugs them up with plaster, he gets the full Land Commission grant and then the water and sanitation grant from the Department of Local Government. I have advised all I come in contact with who are building Land Commission houses to make their plans for a bathroom and lavatory and for a septic tank while the house is being built. However, there are some cases of people building Land Commission houses who are denied this water and sanitation grant, through some trick thought up by some bright boy in the Custom House.

The Minister for Lands has no responsibility in respect of the Custom House.

He has responsibility for protecting the interests of the tenants for whom he makes arrangements, and, when he finds a colleague working against those interests and giving those tenants a little chip with an axe on the back of the head, it would not be too much to ask him to stand up for them.

What does the Minister intend to do about the Shannon Valley?

Flood it again.

That would be beyond his power. I should like the Minister to give us a detailed account of what it is hoped to do there. When the disastrous flooding occurred there in 1954, plans were formulated and ready to be implemented. At the time, an expert sent by the American Government very graciously gave us an opinion of what should be done in the Shannon Valley, taking into account the water power and all the other factors. Plans were formulated and I must express appreciation of the quick way the Land Commission prepared plans for migration and for the removal of tenants to dwelling houses on suitably high ground in the case of farmers who did not want to leave the valley. I wish to know what the Minister intends to do now.

I was sorry to see the Minister made a cut of £20,000 in sub-head I, which is really the principal sub-head of the Vote under which the Land Commission carries out improvement works. In fact, if ever anybody wants to strangle the Land Commission, all he has to do is to reduce sub-head I to a token amount of £5 and the Land Commission will be frozen stiff. I am sorry that the Minister has done this under pressure from those who do not understand the work of the Land Commission and deliberately do not want to understand it, over the years. I am afraid the Minister will find in this connection that he has agreed to something that will land him in a lot of trouble by next October or November.

I want to repeat that it is high time to use sub-head R of the Vote on a big scale and to complete the work of the relief of congestion. There are some cases of congestion down in my county. We have the estate of the Marquis of Sligo, and the Dowd and Moore estates in the West. These estates have been on hands for a long time. A certain amount of good work was done for the relief of congestion in my time and has been done since I went out of office, but a lot remains to be done. These estates were virtually untouched since taken over under the 1923 Act. There are actually three estates there comprising all the land west of Croagh Patrick right up to Clew Bay and Killary harbour and back to Galway harbour. That is where the poorest land in the country is.

The people there are living in very bad conditions and it is in these districts that we have the most serious flight from the land, because the people have nothing to live on. Sometimes, if they are lucky like last year, when we had an exceptionally dry season, they might be able to sell turf but there is very little county council work being done there. I established a few forests in that area and I hope the Minister will help to increase the work there as a supplement to the people's earnings. About 70 or 80 of them who are lucky enough to be near the forests are employed there, but forestry work alone will not keep them, and unless something is done to improve their holdings we will lose all these families to England. It is a strange thing that although there is great poverty in these areas the finest and healthiest children seem to tumble out of the national schools at closing time. I do not know how it is done but it is a credit to the parents that they have done it.

There is the fresh air.

It would take more than fresh air to make them as good as they are. I have mentioned certain areas in the Kiltimagh and Swinford districts that are under resettlement. I should like the Minister to ask the commissioners to speed up the work in those areas.

I urge the Minister to pay particular attention to my principal suggestion. I think it is the only way to do it. I know that, as Minister for Lands, I would have a serious falling-out with the Government of which I was a member if I did not get my own way in certain matters. We have been reading recently in the daily papers that the work of the Land Commission has gone on for a long time. It has. If the relief of congestion side of the work were brought to a close, it would not be one bit too soon.

With the pool of land available for acquisition drying up, with the fact that big farmers seem to be working their lands much better than formerly and with the fact that local acquisition difficulties are multiplying day by day, the work of the commissioners is being brought to a standstill. The day they cannot get a pool of land on which to work will be a sad day for them because they will not have the raw material with which to get ahead with this very urgent work. During the war years—from 1941 to 1948, I think —land acquisition was virtually closed down and the work of the Land Commission came to a standstill. Only a small hard core still remains to be tackled. We shall have to be more liberal. The raising of the valuation from £10 to £15 will not help a lot. We should spend a little extra money for a few years and get the job done.

We are often prone to criticise the Land Commission and its work, especially when we do not realise the difficulties with which the commission and its inspectors have to contend. When we become experienced in the matter and appreciate the many problems that confront the local inspector in his job—for example, the unwillingness of rundale tenants to migrate or agree to a resettlement scheme and all the other difficulties that crop up from time to time—maybe then we are not so critical of the Land Commission. I have often criticised them for their delay in getting rid of holdings and estates which they acquired. However, when I see the Land Commission in operation, and the nature and extent of the problems that arise, I am inclined to feel more sympathetic.

There is a paradox which I have noticed in the past 12 months in the operations of the Land Commission. While the Land Commission is busy trying to relieve congestion in the West of Ireland by breaking up ranches, the opposite process is taking place in other parts of the country— the mass amalgamation of small farms. This mass amalgamation of small farms has been referred to somewhere as the "cheque-book evictions". It means that, in time, we shall have the problem which we had in the past; we shall have the large ranches reappearing in the east. That will not help to arrest the great problem of our time, the decrease in our population. Rather will it accelerate and accentuate that decrease. The Minister should address himself to that matter. If at all possible, he should put some ceiling on the buying of land. The small farmer is the king-pin of our economy and the backbone of the nation. If he disappears, everything we hold dear will disappear. At all costs, he must be preserved.

The Minister mentioned a number of matters in which I am interested in his introductory statement. He referred to the plans for Land Commission houses. Deputies have been very critical of Land Commission houses and of the plans drawn up by engineers and architects attached to the Land Commission. Last Sunday I was in Laurencetown in my constituency. I was shown by the local county councillor the Kenny estate, which was divided three years ago. Nine houses were built on that estate at that time and four of them are still unoccupied because prospective tenants would not agree to go into the type of house provided for them by the Land Commission. I went to the trouble of inspecting one of the houses. It consisted of four rooms. The only two bedrooms available in the house were so small that you could not put a double bed into either of them. Whatever engineer or architect attached to the Land Commission drew up those plans, and whatever senior official approved of them, should have their heads examined. Steps should be taken to avoid a repetition of that kind of bungling. In the three years, four holdings have been allowed to stand there unoccupied. I was told by people in the Laurencetown area that inspectors have been travelling all over the countryside in an attempt to get people to take over the four fine holdings but nobody would take them because of the type of house provided on them.

I was also shown the fencing done on the same estate. It is absolutely disgraceful. How it passed an inspector of the Land Commission is more than I can understand. No farmer, no matter how poor he might be, would put up a fence of the type provided on the Kenny estate, Laurencetown, by the Land Commission.

I am delighted to learn that it is proposed to take steps to relieve the flooding in the Shannon basin. I think the Minister stated that the 70 farms affected will be relieved to the tune of from £80,000 to £100,000. This money will come from the National Development Fund. The Minister did not mention the nature of the relief to be afforded to the tenants of land liable to flooding in my constituency.

In the past year another development has taken place, with the appearance of the syndicates. They have purchased holdings in the Midlands and other parts of the country and have divided them into suitable farms and sold them to suitable applicants as residential farms, or non-residential farms. This is an indictment of the Land Commission. Why could the Land Commission not engage in an activity of that kind? Apparently these syndicates were able to go into the open market, purchase a large tract of land, divide it up into holdings, and sell the holdings to suitable applicants for a reasonable sum, and make a profit on the transaction. I wonder could the Land Commission be empowered to engage in that type of activity? The Minister might give the matter consideration.

The Minister referred to a problem which has received much attention during the year from farming organisations and; as he said himself, from individual commentators. It is the problem of the young landless farmer. During the year I read a very interesting article in Volume 1, No. 2 of the University Review, where the young landless farmer is defined as a “young landless man who has a definite vocation for the agricultural calling and a remarkable aptitude for it.” He has a certain amount of capital but he is unable to get enough to purchase a farm. I am sure that the Land Commission could, in some way, through its own efforts, be able to come to the assistance of that type of man. I understood some years ago that the landless man occasionally got land, but nowadays very few of them are put on the inspectors' books and their chances of getting land in competition with the congests or the rundales are small indeed.

I would ask the Minister to consider fully the suggestions made in this article, which is a very thought-provoking one and which, I am sure, would give him some ideas on how to help the young landless farmer. The National Farmers' Association, too, made a very useful suggestion when they advocated a farming apprenticeship scheme. The Minister stated that annually about 1,500 holdings are allotted by the Land Commission. The National Farmers' Association have been very conservative in their demand. They ask that, of these 1,500 holdings, about 50 would be made available to suitable farm apprentices with a certain amount of capital of their own. Consideration might well be given to this suggestion.

I ask the Minister to look into the matter of the advertising of certain holdings. In my own county large estates are advertised and I—and other Deputies, I am sure—have taken steps to notify the commission that these holdings are on the market, but when the commission tries to purchase the estates they are immediately withdrawn from the market. That has happened in my constituency at Derry hivney near Portumna, and at another estate at Rathville between Loughrea and Athenry. The owners appear very unwilling to dispose of their lands when they hear the Land Commission is interested in purchasing them.

I come from probably one of the most congested counties in Ireland, Galway. In that constituency there is an area on the slopes of the Slieve Aughty range from Derrybrien and Loughatorick to Sonnagh, Kilnadelma and Kylebrack where most of the farmers have holdings of very small valuations. No serious effort, as far as I know, has been made to do anything for them, down through the years. Yet not 20 miles away, towards the east, and on the shores of the Shannon in the Laurencetown-Meelick-Eyrecourt area, upwards of 2,500 acres of land are held by three families. I understand that the Government, and previous Governments too, have taken a stand on the matter of private property, and rightly so, but the Land Commission and the Government could make inquiries and find out if these lands are being properly worked. If necessary they could use the compulsory powers which the commission have and which, as far as I know, they are very reluctant to use, or have been reluctant to use in the past six or seven years, and try and relieve the acute congestion that exists particularly in the southern part of my constituency.

I hope, too, that in the course of the next 12 months the Minister will live up to the promise he made in this House last year that estates which have been in the hands of the commission for a long period would be disposed of. There are plenty of them in my constituency, at Dalyston, St. Clerans, and Dunsandle, to mention but a few which have been in the hands of the commission for a long time and which they have not yet disposed of. I trust that they will be disposed of soon and that the Minister will see to it that all the other estates in their hands will also be divided as quickly as possible.

One of the biggest problems in land division is to see that the most suitable people get the land. It is one of the biggest problems which the commission have to face and I fully realise the problem of the local inspector, in finding such persons among the applicants entitled to get land in his locality. The commission have fallen down in the fact that they display little interest in those people after they have got the land. My experience is that the commission seems to lose interest immediately. That should not happen. They should keep a close watch on how those farms or portions of land are being worked afterwards. It has also been my experience that in some cases, not all, those people make no attempt to farm the land which they have got. They continue to set it. That is bad from the national point of view and very demoralising from the point of view of the people who have failed to get land. They are naturally very sore when they find that some people come along and get land, by a decision of the local inspector, and, when it is given to them, they make a very bad job of it.

I often wonder why the Land Commission do not go back over a number of years and see how these farms are being farmed. It would make very interesting reading—what the results have been and if the farming has been successful; what number of those people are farming properly and making a good living. It is very disheartening to see those people setting their land again. I know of cases which occurred quite recently. In one case, a man got 30 acres of good land. He was not in a position to farm that at the time; he was actually working with another farmer. For the past three years, he has continued to set that land. There were applicants in the district who would have been much more suitable and would have made a success of it. Naturally, those people are very annoyed to-day when they see that happening.

I know it is not general, but there are cases, and the Land Commission and the local inspectors should guard against that practice. Possibly, there are only isolated cases, but I think it is happening too often. There is not enough of attention paid to the type of person receiving this land. It seems that, if the applicant is convenient to the land and has five or ten acres of land himself, he is in line for a portion of the farm, whereas there may be men outside that regulation who are debarred. It is time for the Land Commission to change, to examine this situation and see if the right type of applicant is receiving land.

The Minister has referred to the landless man and a farmer who is not eligible for land because he is outside the regulations. The Minister said he must remain outside because the number of uneconomic holders is so large. I wonder is it a sound policy to stick rigidly to that type of uneconomic holder? There has been a movement— the last speaker referred to it—by the N.F.A. to devise some scheme for the farmer's son who is not eligible. There are quite a number of those people in the country. They would make excellent farmers. They have been working on their fathers' farms since they left school. There is no prospect whatever of such people owning a farm. The father is not eligible for additions to his land. He may have a 40- or 50-acre farm. With two or three sons working on the farm, he will not be in a position to buy those young men land.

The Land Commission should seriously consider giving those people a chance. They are the backbone of the country, excellent young men, with a first class knowledge of farming, who, if they were given a chance, would make a success of it. It need not be a matter of handing them over a farm at a low rate. There should be some security given by the Land Commission for the purchase of the land. If they got time, those young men would be able to pay back the Land Commission, pay the market value for the land. I should like the Minister and the Land Commission to consider something on those lines. I thought the Minister would have made some reference to these negotiations with the N.F.A.—I think he was at this conference himself—but possibly he may refer to it when concluding.

There is also the question of migrants being brought over to my constituency. So far, there have been isolated cases; and I think the isolated case is wrong. You might as well bring a man from China as bring him from the West of Ireland to Carlow-Kilkenny. We had a case of a man being brought from Galway. He told his neighbours when he was brought over that he had been completely deceived by the Land Commission. He did not expect anything like what he had been landed into. The first thing he said was: "There is no fishing here at all." He thought he would be near the sea. He said: "You could not make a living out of this farm." The Land Commission supplied him with seeds and fertilisers to start him off on this good holding. I understand that he sold both the seeds and the fertilisers locally, and the next thing he did was to pop off to England and leave his family behind him. That is very bad for the local people. They felt they were entitled to this holding.

The Deputy is citing a very exceptional case. Has he seen the good holdings in Kildare? There are some very well run holdings in Kildare.

This is a case in South Carlow. While a number of migrants may be satisfactory, bringing isolated cases into my constituency is very bad policy. It annoys the people eligible for land to see this happen. They feel they are entitled to the land. Then, somebody is brought over from the West and he makes no attempt whatever to farm that land properly. He is put in amongst very good farmers and he has no knowledge whatever of the type of husbandry going on in the district. The migrant looking for fishing in Carlow will be a long time waiting for it. This man said he could earn £10 or £15 per week fishing in Galway. The Land Commission had a right to leave him fishing in Galway.

There is also the matter of the land in the hands of the Land Commission which they have not yet divided up. There has been objection to that from all sides of the House over a number of years. But another extraordinary policy is the continuation of the setting of this land for tillage year after year until the fertility of the land is exhausted. When that happens, the land is divided amongst the applicants. It is a very bad policy. The Minister has stated he is trying to get this land divided as quickly as possible. It would be very good if that were done and if the policy of setting it for tillage year after year were discontinued. One would expect a Government Department to give a proper lead in this respect. To continue to run down the fertility to such an extent is a disgrace.

I know of a Land Commission farm advertised and set for tillage on 19th May of this year. The people in that district are laughing at the idea that the Land Commission knew so little about it that they set the land for tillage on 19th May. That land had to be ploughed and a crop put in after 19th May. The result was that the land was set at £1 or 30s. per acre—land which should have made much more. The very latest date for putting in a proper corn crop would have been around the end of April, but it was only put up by the auctioneer on 19th May. It is a disgrace and it has a very bad effect generally on the people. They say that the Land Commission do not care and are not interested in the land, that it will do any old time. The Minister referred to the difficulty of acquiring land and to the fact that the pool of land here is drying up. Deputy Blowick also spoke of the difficulty of acquiring land and he recommended to the Minister various ways in which he could succeed in acquiring it. It is extraordinary to hear the statements here by the Minister and at the same time realise what is happening in Carlow. There were two big estates there up to recently— one of 750 acres and another of 1,600 acres; and a foreigner has come in and purchased them. This land was sold on the open market. The Land Commission were quite aware of the situation there, but they made no attempt whatever to purchase it. It appears that they were not interested. At the same time, we have the Minister saying to-day that the pool of land is drying up.

In the first case, the Brownshill estate, 750 acres, it is six years since that farm was sold. At that time, it was offered to the Land Commission and they did not interest themselves in it. A foreigner came in and purchased it at a low price, as there was not very much competition for a farm of that size. He has continued to crop that land since then; he has corn on it year after year. Early this year, that man sold portion of it, which he had divided up into 100-acre farms; and he sold them at a very high price. At the time, the Land Commission were asked to interest themselves in it and take over the land. There are quite a big number of uneconomic holders in the district. The Land Commission have not sent an inspector down there to investigate the case. Those people have never been interviewed and no check has been made on the position. After years and years of continued cropping on that estate, this same gentleman this year bought the beautiful estate of 1,600 acres beside it. That land was purchased for £50,000 and the timber on the land is supposed to be valued at £20,000. The land is working out at about £20 an acre. Of course, there were no local people able to buy that land. The only people who could have competed against this gentleman were the Land Commission, so this man had the land at his own price. He is going to continue the same policy there. This year, he has 900 acres of wheat sown on that farm. Previously, there was a large herd of cows there and it was properly farmed. The herd supplied milk to Carlow town. That has all gone now and the herd has been sold off. The policy there now is to be continued—the continual cropping of the land until it is run down and then it will be offered again in the public market. The Land Commission are standing by.

The people there are very annoyed about it. The local people have tried everything to get the Land Commission interested, but they have made no move and never seem to take any interest. At the same time, we find the Minister saying to-day that the pool of land is drying up. The sons and daughters of those people will definitely have to clear out. They are industrious people and they are trying to carry on, on small holdings, by taking conacre for tillage and grass, while they see this land being taken up by the foreigner. The demesne walls are there for generations, of course, and it was the first hope of these people that they would be allowed inside those demesne walls and have this land for themselves. The Land Commission are not prepared to take action, although pressure was used in every direction. Outside the people immediately concerned, a petition was signed by the business people of Carlow town—I think it was sent to the Taoiseach—protesting against this situation. It is the most disgraceful thing that has happened for many years.

The previous speaker referred to big estates being offered in the public market and said that the very minute the Land Commission seemed to be interested in them, they were withdrawn. This is a different case altogether. This land was offered on the public market. It was not withdrawn because of Land Commission interest. The Land Commission never interested themselves in it and they even went further than that. They sent a notice to the auctioneer, when this farm was being offered at the previous sale, saying they had no interest in it; and that notice was read out at the sale, that the Land Commission had no interest in it. That seems an extraordinary thing and I hope the Minister will give an explanation of it when he is replying, as the people in that district require an explanation. The local people are anxious to see this land divided. The people who would be likely to get some of it have been very patient so far and, undoubtedly, they have been treated very badly by the Land Commission.

At least, an inspector should have gone down to investigate the position, but I understand nothing has happened. There was a deputation to the Minister early in the spring about this and no action was taken. The Minister was not prepared to interfere. He talked about the right of ownership and the right of those people to do whatever they wished with the land. I am completely in agreement with the Minister on that—the right of ownership and free sale. I am 100 per cent. behind him, but this situation is quite a different one. It is a most unusual situation, where two big estates are offered on the open market and the Land Commission will take no action.

On the other hand, the Land Commission from time to time investigate cases which there is no reason at all to investigate. I cannot understand their policy on that. Take the case where the owner of a farm dies and the children are young. An inspector comes along, because that farm is being set on the 11 months' system for a few years, until the eldest son is fit to take over. The Land Commission pester the widow and threaten that they may acquire the land. That is a terrible worry, naturally, to the woman left in that position. I should like to contrast that with the attitude adopted towards these two large estates I mentioned, which were given no attention at all by the Land Commission. When the Minister is replying, I hope he will give a reason for their refusal to take action in this case.

I am more or less disappointed in the Minister's statement, because, being a young Minister and a new Minister, I expected a new approach. Not alone I, but every farmer's son will be disappointed. Reading the Farmers' Journal over the past year and listening to speeches and also listening to the Minister, we were convinced that some new scheme was being worked out whereby the farmer's son would be catered for, but we find that that is not so.

In past years, I was critical of Land Commission policy; and I make no apology for being so, as I had good ground for being critical. The Land Commission got off to a bad start. Too many irresponsible people got land and it sickened almost every decent man to see the type that got it, how they refused to work it and what they did with it. We in the eastern counties, where migration was started and was continued in a big way, were disappointed in the initial stages of migration to our county, because the wrong type of migrant was brought in. That was a bone of contention for many years.

Another great problem was created by giving tenants holdings that were too small. At that time, anything from 19 to 22 statute acres of poor or fair land were the maximum. We know that in many parts of the country one cannot live on 19 acres, especially if one is placed on that farm with very little money or credit. I am glad that in recent years there has been an improvement and at present holdings of 33 to 35 acres are being allotted, with good houses, good out-offices and good roadways. The Land Commission are doing good work, getting good tenants, both native and migrant. In the last five or six years, the Land Commission have done really good national work and I give them credit for it.

In dividing an estate, the Land Commission make every effort to see that the amenities in the neighbouring villages are helped out. I recently approached the Land Commission in County Meath in connection with the village of Summerhill and helped the local body to get a Gaelic playing pitch. Also in regard to a hard tennis court, the Land Commission met us fully and gave us the facilities needed. That has meant an immense improvement in the district. They also met the county council and gave four or five acres of land for housing which tends to make these little villages worthwhile. I am thankful to the Land Commission for this work because we want to build up our villages and towns, and, if the Land Commission help in doing that, they are doing good work.

In connection with the acquisition of land, however, I think they have fallen down on the job, as far as Meath is concerned. They could have acquired far more land. Perhaps money was tight and if that is the case, I will forgive the Land Commission, but too many gentlemen have got away with increasing large holdings. The Land Commission should have seen to it that these people did not acquire the land when it became available in the area. I know the pool of land is diminishing of late and I know it is harder to get land, but are the Land Commission doing everything possible? I would ask the Land Commission to try to ensure that in the next four or five years land division will be completed. If so, we will have a well-balanced economy with good tenants working their land to the utmost.

Many large holdings in County Meath have been taken over and divided, but there are still too many large holdings where the land is not fully worked. I do not want these holdings taken from the owners, but I want them pared down. The man with 800 or 500 acres who is able to work only 200 should not be allowed to continue on that basis. It is time for the Land Commission to step in. The man who has only 200 acres and works it can make a splendid living. The balance should be allotted to the people who are looking for land. I am not against the farmers who have 1,200 or 1,400 acres and work that acreage to the utmost, employing 22 or 25 men all the year round. We have seven or eight of those in my county and I would not touch one of them, and I would not expect the Land Commission even to look across their boundaries. They are doing good work, perhaps better than if the land were divided, but too many mediocre people are getting away with very little tillage and half of their lives are spent abroad and their land is left with a few bullocks roaming through it and the grass almost up to one's knees. We should not stand for that. I would ask the Land Commission to get these estates which are not giving proper employment pared down. That is work the Land Commission should do and I would urge them to do it at the earliest possible moment.

I also suggest the Land Commission should purchase land in the open market. If a farm is advertised, of a suitable type, in the right place, I do not see why the Land Commission should not go in and purchase it at a reasonable price. If one or two big men with cheque books want to pay dearly, let the Land Commission make them pay dearly. I think the Land Commission are sitting down on the job there.

I am sorry to hear—because I know it will be bitterly opposed—that farmers are not to be included in the allocation of land. In my county, where we have suffered much, it is hard to think that a farmer living beside a large estate with five or six sons, able to put up only £100 or £200 and no more, will be ignored by the Land Commission. These farmers' sons are probably members of Macra na Feirme or Muintir na Tíre or other lively organisations that are rising up here. It is hard to think that these men are excluded from owning land and it is unnatural that they should have no hope of being able to purchase land because at present even the smallest farm goes to £2,000 and £8,000 to £10,000 is not unusual. The wrong type of people are buying these places and the farmers' sons in the locality have no hope, except to go back as labourers or get out of the country. If there are openings in Canada or Britain, those young men go there and they are a national loss.

It would be better to have such young men settle down here rather than have the men with the cheque books purchasing the big estates. What good are they to the country? They are just fly-by-nights and we do not want them. Let us place the proper type of people on the land. If we put a farmer's son on a holding near his family and if the family helps, after four or five years he will be a fully-fledged farmer. He will marry and settle down and acquire his own tractor or horses and work his farm to the utmost. Such types are excluded at present, but I believe it is within the Minister's power to exclude instead the other type of people from outside.

I would strongly appeal to the Minister, and I know my colleagues on the other side from County Meath will join with me in this, to end the present situation which is unfair. Hundreds of migrants are brought up from the West. We have no objection to them. They are good, honest, decent people and they have every right to get land and, when they get it, I am sure they will work it to the utmost. They are a credit to our country and to the West, and I say that as one who opposed the migration policy; but when it is a national policy, we must give credit where it is due. These people have fitted in well in County Meath and blended with the local people and are now Meath people themselves and just as good as we are.

At the same time, I would strongly press the Minister to make some effort on behalf of the landless men, the farmers' sons. If the Minister does not do this, he will do a great injustice to the country, and I would say that whether the present Minister or his predecessor is in office. Something must be done because, slowly but surely, the people to whom I have referred are leaving the country and they never come back because they are sick and tired of waiting to see if something will turn up. Why should we lose the services of those men and lose the national tradition that is behind them and, at the same time, allow a lot of place-hunters to come in here, buy up large ranches and give employment only to a man and a dog? That is what is happening.

I am not against migration. It must go on as national policy. There is a dense population in the West of Ireland that is unable to live there and I am satisfied that the Government is doing its duty in trying to make the small holdings in the West as economic as possible. However, I am also satisfied that in our county we have a problem. There are very large estates there to be divided within the next year or two and some of our men in County Meath, the good type of farmer, should be placed on that land. It makes no difference to me what their policy or their creed or their outlook is. If the Government do that, they will be doing good work.

I was under the impression that the Minister had a different outlook from past Ministers. Deputy Blowick was a good Minister, but, like the rest of them, he had his mind set on the West of Ireland and it did not matter about the people anywhere else. These people from the West of Ireland were welcome in County Meath because they were decent people, but I expect that some consideration should be given to the representations not only of Deputies but of clergymen of all denominations. We do not want to let the farmers' sons leave this country.

The houses being built by the Land Commission have improved immensely in recent years and I hope that the amenities given to other people will also be given to these and that they will have the same water, sewerage and lighting facilities as other people. I hope that this improvement in housing will continue and that we will not have a standard pattern of houses but that we will have a variety. I am proud of the fact that the people who got these new houses made a very good job of the surroundings. The way the approaches and shelter belts have been devised is a credit to those who did it. It has changed the face of what was once nothing more than the Pale where the large landowner owned everything and where the small man was nothing more than the serf who stood on the doorstep and touched his cap to the landlord. That day has gone and we are now placing the ordinary Irish in their rightful place on the land of Ireland.

In the past, the Land Commission made some shockingly bad roads, but in recent years there have been improvements. In County Meath, we have embarked on a scheme of taking over every road leading on to main roads and this will cost us something in the neighbourhood of £250,000 or £275,000. We expect to get these roads from the Land Commission in good shape and to have them made into proper approaches to the main roads without any blind turnings. I hope we will have consultation between the Land Commission engineers and the county and local engineers in this matter.

I would also like to see consultation between the Land Commission and the county councils with regard to the erection of pumps. We have a big problem in County Meath with regard to water and it is desperate to see the Land Commission sinking a pump for a new allottee and the county council sinking another pump a short distance away for the occupants of new cottages. Consultation in that connection would lead to economies.

Fencing by the Land Commission has greatly improved. The old sod fence was a waste of money and time and the new concrete posts with the thorn quicks are an ideal solution of the problem. We had too much of the sod fence and when the big white-headed bullock got at one side of it with his horns, the sod fence did not last very long. With the concrete posts and the thorn quicks, great improvements have been made.

The Land Commission in recent years have done good work in correcting the mistakes made in the past. In the past, men got land who never should have got it. They sold it and it made no difference to them to whom they sold it. All they wanted was the money. Now they are back where they started. They started off with nothing and they have ended up with nothing. They were not land-minded. It was not in their blood to be farmers and it was a waste of national money to have the Land Commission give £2,000 or £3,000 to each of these men. We have found out our mistakes now and we hope they will not happen again.

I would like the Land Commission to pay particular attention to County Meath. There are some men there who have from 1,000 to 2,000 acres of land each and they are not working the places at all. They were allowed to buy up land all over the place. Between Dunshaughlin and Navan, there are stretches of road where you will find land with nothing on it but the white-headed bullock. These men are just ranchers and nothing more and this land should be given to the ordinary farmer who will work it.

One of the biggest disgraces of the last number of years was the sale by large landowners in County Meath, who would not work their farms themselves, of their farms to speculators. All types of machinery were brought on to the land and it was mined and bored for years for the growing of wheat. That land is only a dust bowl at the moment, with nothing on it but dirt, scutch and weeds. These persons should have their big estates pared down. If you do that, you will be doing good work, and, if the Minister does that in County Meath, he will have at his disposal a fine pool of land for allocation. There is no use in the Minister saying that there is no land for allocation. If a man has 500 or 800 acres of land and is working only 300 acres of it, why should the remaining 300 or 400 acres be left to him? Let us cut down those big estates, but, if they are good farmers, we should leave them alone.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

I am sorry, Sir. I am just winding up. I would urge the Minister to cut down the big estates, and, where a big ranch is put on the market, he should purchase it so that speculators will not come in and keep the ordinary Irish people from getting their natural rights.

My contribution to this very important debate will be confined, in the main, to the activities of the Land Commission, with emphasis on the acquisition and subsequent sub-division of large tracts of land. I come from a county where the Land Commission has been particularly active for a considerable period, and where the present policy of allocation has been the subject of very adverse criticism. Therefore, I am very much concerned with the future and with the effect of the policy of the Land Commission in regard to the sub-division of land in Meath, and I am anxious to have this opportunity to express my views on this matter. It is the duty of the Government to ensure the land is used to the best advantage for the benefit of the nation. I do not mean that the Land Commission should waste time examining mistakes that may have been made in the past where the question of allocation of land was involved, but the Land Commission should take all possible steps to ensure that holdings will be allocated to those people who have proved they can make the best use of the land. It is only by making the best use of the land that prosperity can be achieved for the nation.

It would be foolish, of course, if the Land Commission did not see that the land was used to the advantage of the nation as a whole. It is of primary importance that the very best use should be made of the land by those people who are lucky enough to secure holdings. Probably that was not the policy in the past. There are cases where tenants are undoubtedly not making the best use of their lands and, no matter what precautions are taken by the Land Commission, there will be cases where the best possible tenants cannot be found. For years past, the policy has been to give priority to uneconomic holdings. That policy may be of advantage in certain parts of the country, but there are large areas in which I suggest a more flexible policy would give better results. Consideration should be given to local conditions and to those areas in which the best advantage is not achieved.

I do not at all wish to criticise to any great extent the present policy of the Land Commission or of the Government with regard to the selection of allottees, or to criticise the policy of migration, though I represent an area where there is a small percentage of local applicants and where very few of them succeed under the present policy. I do suggest to the Minister, however, that there should be a definite change in the present policy, because I know the enormous expense of migration, caused by the Land Commission over the last number of years, and I do not feel that the migration has justified its enormous expense. There is quite enough land, at least in County Meath, which could be acquired by the Land Commission and I do not agree with the Minister when he states that the pool of land available for acquisition is drying up. Deputy Giles has dwelt on that point very forcibly and, might I say, very intelligently. There are very large tracts of land in Meath that are not properly worked and the Land Commission should take cognisance of that fact and give that land to people who will work it.

There have been cases where people have got large tracts of land, and they avail of opportunities for having that land reclaimed and drained through the use of large grants. Then they sell that land and make a profit on it, having secured the grants. Others will come in and erect a couple of houses on it and have a stud farm for a couple of mares so that the Land Commission are not able to acquire the land from them. A lot of that is a sham. I know a couple of farms in Meath, not very far from the City of Dublin, where that is applicable, where people erected a couple of houses, had a couple of mares and were supposed to have a stud farm. It is a bad policy to allow that state of affairs to continue while so many people are anxious to have land and work it.

I was very disappointed that the Minister, in his opening statement, did not indicate that he would give some concessions, or at least make some change in policy, to bring farmers' sons within the category eligible for land. Many farmers throughout Meath and other places have two, three or four sons and they are not in a position to purchase a farm of land for each one of them. Many of those young boys have had vocational education, in the hope that some day they would qualify for a parcel of land. They are hard-working young men who stayed at home until such time as they decided to go out into the world, but then they found they were unable to secure a farm of land of any worthwhile size, because at the present time, due to the value of land, they would need a capital of £2,000 or £3,000.

It is rather unfortunate that those people should be overlooked. They are the backbone of the nation; they are the people who really would work the land. They have studied agriculture from their infancy, and have taken courses in agriculture in the hope that some day they might be the owners of their own farms. Now, I notice, the policy of the Land Commission will not be changed and a considerable number of these young men have no alternative but to leave the country. A farm of 50 or 60 acres is not large enough to maintain a couple of young men and they must get out in the world. They are ambitious and anxious to make a living for themselves, to get married and settle down. When they leave the country, they are a definite loss to the nation.

No matter how industrious they may be, they could never buy large farms in Meath. Most farms there are sold at from £3,000 to £4,000. Most of the farms in Meath are in the region of 150 acres upwards. Many of them are let on the grazing system. There are various people who have taken grassland over a number of years. There are others who are called landless men but who, over the years, have taken land on the 11 months' system and have considerable stock. When the Land Commission takes up a particular farm, such men must dispose of their stock and get out, which is a very grave hardship. It is unreasonable that men who, through hard work and initiative have accumulated a handsome sum of money, are unable to buy a farm which they took on the 11 months' system. When that farm is taken over and divided, the cattle are put out on the road and must be disposed of and the men must leave the country. These two types of people should get reasonable consideration and I would ask the Minister to take particular note of that matter.

I know of a couple of cases in Meath where men have gone into milk production. They have no land but take land on the 11 months' system from year to year and have built up a nice little dairying business. When the Land Commission takes the land they must get out and they have no alternative but to leave the country. These people also should receive very serious consideration.

There is a considerable number of cottiers in Meath and they also come into the picture more or less. They have been given labourers' cottages and they have an acre or two of grass on a convenient farm. Some of them have large families. They availed of the opportunity to have a cow or two to provide milk for their families. When the land is divided, they also are excluded from getting a parcel of that land.

During the period of office of the first Fianna Fáil Government, quite a number of these tenants of cottages got accommodation plots of approximately five acres. That was very useful. In some cases, there was abuse, but many of the tenants worked that small piece of land to good advantage. Men working convenient to an estate that is being divided, particularly those who work on the estate, and who have a cow or two, should also receive consideration from the Land Commission. There may not be very many. I know there is not sufficient land for everybody, but there are cases of extreme hardship where men have a couple of cows and have to dispose of them when the land is divided.

The size of an economic holding has often been mentioned in this House. Conflicting opinions have been expressed. In County Meath, where cattle raising is the chief occupation, a farm of less than 35 acres is, in my opinion, inadequate. In most parts of County Meath, milk production has increased considerably over the years. On small farms, six or eight acres are under crops and up to ten acres are required for meadow, which reduces the size of the farm considerably, particularly on a milk farm, because cows need a very considerable run. A small dairy would require at least nine cows. An economic holding would be at least 35 acres.

In the early stages of land division, 25 acres were the maximum. Those who received those holdings are now applying for an addition of land where land is divided convenient to them. They are also excluded because they already have received a holding from the Land Commission. Any man who has received 25 or 26 acres of land and who has proved a very good farmer, who has worked that land and who has had to take grassland or meadow in order to supplement his crops, is entitled to at least a few acres if it is possible to give them to him. He has proved beyond all doubt that he is worthy of what he has received from the Land Commission and has derived benefit from it for himself and his wife and family and for the nation generally.

On the question of the making of roads by the Land Commission over a number of years, the Land Commission should put those roads into proper repair. County Meath has been at very substantial expense in the last couple of years in taking over such roads and maintaining them. By-roads were handed over in a most deplorable state. More precautions should be taken by the Land Commission. The ratepayers of County Meath have quite enough to do to keep the roads in repair without having to bear any further burden. They had no alternative to taking over these roads. Most of these roads serve small farmers in the dairying business. Some of the roads were in a deplorable state, almost impassable for the farmers who had to come to the high road with milk. We had to spend £30,000 or £40,000 last year and the year before to put a number of these roads into proper repair. When the Land Commission are handing over these roads, they should see to it that they are in a reasonable state of repair.

The sinking of pumps is another matter which has been referred to. I hope the Minister will take note of it and will see to it that where there are five or six farms together, they will be supplied with a pump. Pumps have been sunk in some cases but the water was so bad that the pump was not used. Proper care was not taken to see that the water was fit for human consumption.

Many roads have been made without consultation with the county engineers and each county engineer has his own planning for the future upkeep of roads. There should be more coordination between the Land Commission and the local engineers so that those roads would be made the proper size and in the proper way.

I would ask the Minister to take note of what my colleague has stated in regard to the bringing in of farmers' sons and so on. The system that operates is most unfair and unreasonable and has created very bad blood in County Meath amongst a number of people there. If the policy is not changed, they may have to take very strong action and appeal to the Minister. There are a number of farms in course of division and I have had deputations from various people, even those who are not interested in land but who are very much interested in the changing of the policy of the Land Commission in respect of farmers' sons and other classes. We cannot expect the Land Commission to do impossibilities. It is very difficult to satisfy everybody, but I know there are several people in the categories I mentioned who should at least get some consideration. I hope the Minister will take action in that direction.

If one is to approach this Estimate in any kind of objective way, it must first of all be realised that the Minister, in conjunction with and by direction of the Government, is responsible for land policy in general and that the Land Commission, on the other hand, being a body constituted as it is, is entirely independent of the Minister and the Government in the working out of the details of Government policy. It must be clearly understood that, in matters of land acquisition and land allocation, the Minister or the Government has no function. That is a fact which has operated over the years, certainly as a theoretical fact. It is one that has been reiterated by several Ministers and particularly by the present Minister in what might be termed a ruthessly realistic approach in speaking on this Estimate last year.

In his introductory speech to the Estimate on this occasion, there is a trace of that ruthless realism still operating. Many matters have been discussed both by the Minister and following speakers from all sides of the House, but first I should like to advert to the question of land purchase by the payment of land bonds, very often payment being made by bonds which have dropped considerably in value and the yield from which is extremely poor. I would say that the time has passed—rather than say that it is high time—when there should be a revision of the whole land code and from that revision a consolidating measure presented to this House whereby there would be uniformity of approach in the matter of acquisition and allocation, and especially in the kind of payment made.

It seems hardly fair that one person whose lands are being acquired will be paid in cash, market value, and that another person whose lands are being acquired for the same purpose will be paid in land bonds which have considerably depreciated in value. That is something to which the Minister should direct his attention in the matter of policy and then leave to the Land Commission, as he very properly must leave it, the details of its working out.

On what basis is the decision made as to whether payment is made in land bonds or in cash?

It depends on what sections of the different Land Acts they are being paid under.

The cash is very limited, as the Deputy knows—only £25,000 a year compared with £500,000 land bonds.

I appreciate the difficulty but the Minister will appreciate that the differentiation operates quite unfairly. I know it is not the fault of the Land Commission, or the fault of the Minister or his predecessor. It is the fault of the machinery that has been worked out to bring this about. I should like to see a situation where everybody would be paid in bonds, on the one hand, or paid in cash, on the other. Of course, having regard to the limitation there is upon actual cash, I think one would have to revert to bonds. It might give the bonds a greater value if the unfairness of the cash system did not operate side by side with it. However, that is the situation with which we are confronted and one which requires examination, revision and ultimate consolidation. There can be no doubt that there are various gatherings of different societies some of them old-established, some of them new, with a growing interest in land, land cultivation and division.

It is not growing any more. I thought it was on the way out.

The interest is growing in the land and in the cultivation of the land by the young farmers' groups in their various voluntary bodies. A considerable amount of attention has been directed here this morning towards the necessity for giving land to landless men, but the landless men have been reduced by most of the speakers to one category, namely, farmers' sons. There are other people who could come into the category of landless men and have the same interest and the same knowledge begotten of experience and training in the working of land as any farmer's son might have, through the practical knowledge and training he has obtained in the working of his father's land.

I think the Land Commission have the power already in some of the enactments to give land to people of this type. I cannot give the exact reference at the moment, but I do know there is a paragraph of a sub-section in the Land Act of 1931—I am subject to correction—which sets out the classes of people to whom the Land Commission may allocate land. The paragraph to which I refer is paragraph (f) of the sub-section in the section of that Act, and it says: "Any other person or persons who in the opinion of the Land Commission should get land." That provision is wide enough to bring in the landless men, be they farmers' sons with practical experience or others who have gained experience and knowledge from other sources.

I think the exclusion of people such as those has been a matter of deliberate policy with the Land Commission by reason of the fact that if they were admitted as an eligible group to whom land would be allocated, it would increase considerably the number, when added to the congests, whose cases are being considered all down the years and at the moment. I should be inclined to agree with that policy if it is, as I say, a deliberate policy or, if not deliberate, certainly one that has a practical operation—that the congests, in so far as the Land Commission can do it, should be eradicated from the economic life of this country in relation to land and land tenure. Once the situation has been worked out to the ultimate relief of congestion, in so far as it can be done, you come to the stage of considering, from the pool left and the land coming on to the market from time to time, whether it would be feasible or practicable to include these persons in the category to whom allocations should be made.

I believe in free sale. I believe a man should be free to dispose of his land. I believe a man should be free to hold on to his land, if it is being properly worked. In that respect, from my experience, not alone political experience but also professional experience, I must say the Land Commission Courts are always extremely reasonable in their approach to the objector, if he shows he requires the lands for his own support or if he shows that the lands are being worked in a proper manner. There are times when it is essential to take over a holding of land or some holdings of land in an area so that the scheme for rearrangement will not alone be possible but be a good scheme of rearrangement.

There is always reference to migrants being brought from the West of Ireland to the various eastern and midland counties. While not discounting in any way or taking from the truth of the allegation made here this afternoon by Deputy Hughes of Carlow in relation to a migrant brought there, I agree with the Minister's observation at the time when he said he thought Deputy Hughes was quoting an extremely isolated and unusual case. I have visited very many times the holdings of migrants in Kildare and Meath, particularly the holdings of migrants who have come from my own County of Mayo.

What about the Galway men?

After last Sunday's performance in Tuam, I have no brief for the Galway men. I must say that the lands allocated to these migrants are being worked in such a manner as to enable the Land Commission to take very just pride in their method of selection. From County Mayo, certainly, and I am sure the same would apply to Donegal, parts of Galway and even the whole west coast, you can get people from smallholdings who have experience not alone of the difficulty of working such a smallholding but, in addition—due to seasonal migration for work on bigger farms in England and, even now, in this country on farms in the South and East—have a very specialised experience in and knowledge of the working of lands such as those of Counties Kildare and Meath. Having that experience and knowledge, they could hardly fail to be a success. I am satisfied they are a success. I am satisfied they are people of whom the Land Commission must justly be proud, in their reaction to the State's effort to help them. There can be no doubt now, after Deputy Giles's speech here to-day— having regard to his utterances of the past, which he freely acknowledges— that the success of the migrants is enshrined forever in the Reports of this House in what might be called Deputy Giles's Conversion.

I objected to single ones being brought in.

Could they not get jobs in the factories over there?

I am afraid this is not the Estimate on which I can deal with the factories situation.

You are sending the factories to the West and then bringing the people over here.

Deputy Hughes mentioned isolated cases and isolated people. I think what he had in mind was that they should be brought as communities.

Yes, into Meath.

I am satisfied that the migration system as operated up to date, with this particular exception, the truth of which I cannot doubt, has been a success and will continue to be a success, as long as the Land Commission continue to exercise the excellent discretion by way of selection which they appear to have exercised in the past.

Somebody mentioned grants for housing generally and for amenities and the distinction between the Department of Local Government and the Land Commission. Deputy Blowick brought that peculiarity to the notice of the Minister in the course of his speech. It is something of which I have knowledge myself. It is something to which the Minister would do well to direct his attention and collaborate and consult with the Minister for Local Government in that regard.

There is one thing which I do not understand. When the Land Commission are doing a scheme of resettlement in an area, they build houses for some and give houses to others—all the same kind of people and the same kind of holding. When somebody is being upset, as it were— being moved too far from his original place—the Land Commission will build a house for him. Where the site of the house is not too far removed from that of the old one, the person gets a grant instead. That causes a lot of dissatisfaction. There can be no doubt that the building of a house by the Land Commission, which is then given free to the occupier, will cause some jealousy to the person who has to build a house on the present grants available, which I am sure everybody will agree are not adequate.

On the subject of roads, I can hardly refrain from keeping one road in my home village out of my mind. Originally, the Land Commission built the roads notoriously narrow. Repair was difficult. The cart track was never able to be moved very much one way or the other and repair and maintenance were very difficult. I fail to see why the Land Commission say, when they come to a village again after ten, 15 or 20 years, on rearrangement, striping and building, could not do something with a road which was theirs originally. Having put it into good shape, it might be possible to get the local authority to take it over. In that way there might be initiated the system to which Deputy Giles referred and which he said is operating in Meath on a large scale.

To come back again to the relief of congestion, apropos of the pool of land being small, I do not think it is as small as the Land Commission make it out to be. The real truth of the matter is that the Land Commission have not got enough money at their disposal to purchase all the land they would like to purchase each year. I would say that probably had something to do with their reluctance, or possibly their inability, to intervene in the sales of these estates in Carlow, to which Deputy Hughes has referred. Perhaps they would like to intervene because nobody wants to see syndicates, combines or large investors, be they individuals or corporations, coming in and taking over land and cropping it to death over a prolonged period and then selling it to the people around the area, in such a robbed condition.

There is another way to help in the relief of congestion and I have adverted to this before. I have spoken with certain officials of the Land Commission, principally the outdoor men, the inspectors, about this. There are areas, particularly in the West, and more especially in Mayo, which have the appearance of bogland but which really are not boglands at all. They are areas which are quite capable of cultivation and if the Land Commission would only take a cue from the successful operations of peatland at Glenamoy, initiated by Deputy Dillon and Deputy Blowick jointly, they will see how much can be done by way of cultivation on virgin bogs.

The tracts I have in mind are not like that at all. They are almost a cross between bogland and land which has been lying fallow for years. I know of cases where the Land Commission are having difficulty in getting people in villages to move, people who would be only too glad to go a distance of two or two and a half miles to this kind of bog, which could be allocated to them in suitably sized holdings, and which they could work now with less difficulty than their forefathers who had to work with spades. Now that we have rotovators, bulldozers and the like it could all be done very cheaply.

I seriously suggest to the Minister, and to the Land Commission, that they could set up four holdings in such a manner at the cost of one in either Kildare, Meath or Carlow. They would have a happy contented people. The Land Commission's experience must have been the same as mine, that while there are some people clamouring to go to Carlow, there are an equal number who, if they were offered the chance, would want to stay where they are. They want to stay in the environment in which they were brought up; they want to stay near the sea or near the bogland and turflands, in the environment of their forbears. If the Land Commission want a particular instance, they have it in the Carter estate in the townland of Doolough where they are operating at the moment. There are people there who are willing to move the two or two and a half miles to bogland and fallowland, which could be extremely fertile, and bordering on which there is one fertile holding which, down the years, has been cultivated from the same land by hand labour, with the spade and shovel and with sea manure. It would be possible to put four people there at a cost of bringing one to Meath and it would probably do something to save that western population and particularly the Gaeltacht village there and keep that community together.

With regard to vesting, there are many instances in which the Land Commission rush into vesting rather too quickly. Anybody with legal experience, or practice, knows that it is very hard to find a valid objection to a proposed vesting order. It is extremely difficult and very often we have to put up reasons that are not valid, legal reasons but nevertheless reasons which persuade the Land Commission Court—very often in its reasonableness, and only in its reasonableness and not for legal reasons— to postpone the vesting until some of the problems regarding turbary and so on have been finalised by the Land Commission inspector.

As I said at the beginning of my observations, it is good to realise that the Minister and the Government are responsible for policy and that the Land Commission is completely independent in the regulation of its own operations. I should like the Minister to make it very clear, as he did last year, to Deputies of all Parties, that that is the situation and that there is no point, as I said last evening on the Estimate for Fisheries, in the Minister making pious utterances of that kind, utterances which, I would go so far as to say, he himself believes to be correct while, at the same time, Deputies are giving the impression in their constituencies that the ultimate acquisition and allocation of land—which is the same as boats in the Fisheries Estimate—depend on whether you support a particular Deputy or not.

I have had occasion to complain in my constituency, since the formation of this Government, about the impression which it was being sought to create by my colleagues in the constituency, and by the publication of replies to questions by the Minister. The impression which it was sought to create was that the Minister, and the Land Commission, were doing what they were doing, at that time, as a result of persuasions by the Deputies concerned.

I remember one time, I think it was at the time of the 1954 general election, when some comments were made in my constituency about the political loyalty of five or six families of migrants who had been moved from the area some time before, and who drove a long distance by car to come back to the polling booth in the constituency where their votes were on the register. I heard Deputy Calleary say: "That is the least they could do. Did I not get the holdings for them?" While that is going on, there is no point in the Minister trying to preserve the independence of the Land Commission and preserve the independence of those isolated and defenceless people scattered all over the country, the outdoor staff of the Land Commission.

Does the Deputy think he got the holdings for them or did he merely pretend he got the holdings for them? That is another good game, you know.

That is the kind of thing to which I am adverting. There are people who do not play that game. The Minister does not like it.

As we are on the subject, I should like to advert to page eight of the Minister's speech, under the heading "Collection of Annuities", in which he states:—

"The position with regard to the collection of land annuities continues to be very satisfactory. At the 31st March, 1958, arrears outstanding amounted to £141,690, being a reduction of £872 on the corresponding figure last year. The efficiency of the collection organisation has been maintained at the usual high level during the year."

Note those words: "The efficiency of the collection organisation has been maintained at the usual high level during the year." This is where the pretence comes in. In my constituency, there are lots of co-owners, usually in large tracts of mountain farms. In a particular instance, brought to my notice only last Sunday, there are two co-owners on the holding. One of the co-owners, either being unwilling to give his share of the annuity to the other man or the other man being unwilling to give it to him, sent to the Land Commission, through his solicitors, on 11th June of this year a money order for half of the annuity. And the Land Commission, by letter dated 23rd June, 1958, and addressed to this man's solicitors in the town of Ballina, said:—

"I am directed by the Land Commission to refer to your letter of the 11th June, 1958, enclosing money order for £2 4s. on behalf of E.M., one of the co-owner tenants of the above holdings and to state that your client and E.K."

—I am deliberately using the initials—

"are jointly and severally responsible for payment of the annuity, the annual sum payable out of these holdings, and payment by Mr. E.M. of a moiety of the amount due would not absolve him from any liability for the amount outstanding or give him immunity from any proceedings which might have to be taken for recovery. Accordingly, the money order forwarded by you is returned herewith."

There were no proceedings for recovery necessary, there were no arrears—and the money is returned. Listen to the next paragraph, which is a violent attack upon the ruthless realism of the Minister defending non-interference in Land Commission business. This is the paragraph:—

"I am to point out that Deputy Seán Doherty recently made representations in these cases and, at his request, Receivable Orders were issued in his name as he undertook to endeavour to have the instalments paid in their entirety each half year."

What are we coming to? What is the meaning of this new form of bailiff? There is one good explanation for this. The explanation is that the gentleman who interviewed Deputy Doherty in this House some weeks ago—I saw him here but I did not know at the time what he was at—now would be able to say to his neighbours: "I made the other fellow give my man the money," accordingly enhancing the prestige of Deputy Doherty as a person who had such tremendous influence with the Land Commission that he could get a Receivable Order in respect of land of which he was neither the owner nor occupier in his own name at his request on the fraudulent representation that he was representing these two men. Listen to what the paragraph says again:—

"I am to point out that Deputy Seán Doherty recently made representations in these cases..."

I want to inform the Minister and the Land Commission now, on behalf of the man to whose solicitors this letter was sent by the Land Commission, that not now or at any time will 1d. of his money be handed to Deputy Doherty for collection.

That is no new procedure at all.

If it is not a new procedure, it is a wrong procedure.

It is not.

Why should anybody be issued with a Receivable Order in respect of any land when he is not instructed to do so or given any permission to do so?

I know cases of people who have left the country for years and the Land Commission have issued Receivable Orders to other people.

These two people are living on their land. They are in occupation of their land. They have not left the country for years. One of them has given no permission to this Deputy to come to the Land Commission. I wondered if there might be some kind of statutory authority for doing this. I went through the Land Acts myself and, not being able to find it, I thought there might be some sort of Statutory Rule and Order with which I was not conversant and I rang the legal department of the Land Commission. I was informed by the legal department of the Land Commission that there is no statutory authority for the issue of a Receivable Order to third persons in respect of lands in the occupation of the owners.

That is not so.

Is Deputy Killilea setting himself up as a higher legal authority on land matters than the legal department of the Land Commission?

I am setting myself up as a person who knows something about it. I have known several cases where people left the country and the Land Commission issued Receivable Orders to other people.

I am not talking about people who left the country. I am talking about two people who, fortunately, are in this country on these lands paying their annuities every year.

Somebody tried to fix up things between them and the Deputy is objecting to it.

Nobody has been asked.

The Deputy is just like a little boy: he is just jealous.

Just because your neophyte has put his foot in it, you are not going to shout me down.

He has done good work.

He has not done any good work. He will not get a halfpenny of the money on foot of the Receivable Orders received by him at his request on the fraudulent representation that he was dealing for these two people.

The Deputy is making a sinister plot out of nothing.

Oh, it is not out of nothing.

Of course it is.

It is a good thing we have not that sort of thing in any other county.

It is; and I would advise Deputy Browne to go down to his Party room and speak to my colleagues and try to get them to lift themselves up to the standard of public representation in County Wexford. I am perfectly aware that the putting of a man's name on a Receivable Order does not give him any right, title, estate or interest in the lands; but there are people who would believe that it gives a right or title to an estate or interest in the lands, and there are people who believe that the prestige resulting from the policy of pursuing a course of fraud of this kind on the public is something that should be sought after and something to which due homage should be paid.

Land tenure and dealings with land and the fight for land have been part of our history. The people are extremely sceptical of any unauthorised dealings with their land. We in the West of Ireland have had bitter experiences of lands getting into the hands of business people by means which were often doubtful and which were often sinister. I am not suggesting that that is the case here but the case here is an effort to show the great influence some people have with a body which the Minister says nobody can influence. That is the part of it to which I object and that is the part to which the man who has authorised me to speak on his behalf here takes exception.

When I brought the matter to the notice of the Land Commission, they asked me if I wanted these Receivable Orders withdrawn. I said: "No; I do not want them withdrawn; I am not making any such request; what I want to know is whether there is any statutory authority for the issue of Receivable Orders in such circumstances; and, secondly, were representations made to the Land Commission that the particular Deputy was representing the two co-owners?" The answer to the first question was "no" and the answer to the second question was "yes".

There being no statutory authority and they being issued on the basis of a fraudulent representation, I would urge the Minister that, if he does not do it in public, he should seriously admonish privately the Deputy of his Party who lends himself to that kind of thing. It will have no result, in the collection of annuities or anything else, but the lowering of the prestige and the standard of integrity of the Land Commission down to the level to which Deputy Killilea would like to bring it.

First of all, I welcome the efforts of the Land Commission in the division of estates which are on their hands for quite a long time. I am glad an effort is being made to speed up their division. I heard Deputies, not merely to-day during this Vote but down the years, advocate the fixing up of landless men with land. I have always held that the purpose for which the Land Commission was established was to deal with uneconomic landholders. If landless men are to be fixed up, I am afraid another body will have to be established to do that job. All of us are pretty well aware that the amount of land available for division is very limited. It would never cover more than a very small fraction of the tenants who are on £5, £6 or £7 valuations, or less, at the present time. Therefore, the question of dealing with landless men must be left to some other body. Perhaps that might be done; but I would not like to see the Land Commission deviate from their principal job, that is, the bringing of the tenants on small valuations up as near as possible to an economic standard.

There is one very strong objection most of us have at present. Where holdings are up for sale and we remind the Land Commission that their acquisition would help to relieve congestion in a locality, the Land Commission ignore our representations and give some type of excuse which is plausible for the moment and so avoid taking over those lands. That course will lead to the moneyed element stepping in and purchasing holding after holding; then they will become ranches again and the Land Commission problem will not be solved for another generation or two. Even now, these estates are tending to become very large again and this question will have to be tackled again at a later stage.

The question of housing is certainly something which requires immediate attention. The houses built by the Land Commission to-day are not nearly as good as the labourers' cottages built by the county councils. It is deplorable to see the types of little bedrooms that have been provided, into which people are asked to go, where there is not accommodation for a man and his wife and one or two children. Everyone knows the small farmers have pretty large families and require a better type of house than that.

In my constituency, there are very large tracts of turbary which we have been pressing the Land Commission for a long time to take over, so as to provide the tenants with turbary. That is not being done and the representations to the Land Commission seem to be useless.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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