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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Jul 1958

Vol. 170 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3—Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy J. A. Costello).

In discussing this Estimate I was referring to the figures in the Statistical Survey and to the appalling situation which is disclosed from the point of view of unemployment, education, our health and social services generally, our agriculture and industry. However, probably the most disturbing feature, even more disturbing than any of those, and God knows they are bad enough, is the point referred to by Deputy Costello, the Leader of the Opposition. That was the general feeling amongst reasonable people who are prepared to accept the evidence of their own eyes and ears that there is a very precipitate loss of faith by the people generally in their politicians and in the effectiveness of parliamentary democracy.

In regard to emigration, unemployment, health, education, and so on, it is possible that we have not yet gone beyond the point of no return and that something may be done to create prosperity and a just social order. Our people were always politically conscious and very jealous of their political rights, in relation to the last general election when with the formation of the Government at that time there were Deputies who were pledged not to sit in this House.

The continuous drop in the polls in recent elections in respect of all political Parties—no Party is exonerated—is probably the most disturbing feature of all in a gloomy litany of unfortunate facts which we must admit here. That our people should be beginning to lose faith in parliamentary democracy is one of the most frightening developments of our history but in the light of the people's experience I find it difficult to blame them. I do blame them, of course, because if they hand up their right to form or displace Governments they merely surrender to the incompetence and inefficiency of the politicians. In that way it is a retrograde decision on the people's part, but at the same time it is difficult to place the entire blame on them. It is easy to attribute that development to a long list of promises made and broken by political leaders over the years. I think it is certainly due to some extent to the fact that on one side they have heard: "Lower taxes, better prices and better times for all"; while on the other side they have heard: "We will get your husbands back to work" and slogans of that kind which were ill-conceived, ill-considered and designed primarily and solely as vote-catching media.

To some extent the people's present attitude is due to that but I think that more than anything else it is due to the fact that our political leaders have failed the public in respect of every single one of their promises, with, perhaps, the exception of slum clearance. They have created in the public mind the certainty that they are not able for the jobs they set themselves. If it was the solution of Partition, Partition remains stronger than it ever was. I would have thought that those who vehemently and with deep emotion favoured the ending of Partition by any reasonable means would have seen that the fundamental changes in our economic policy which I have suggested and which the Tánaiste, Deputy Lemass, suggested only two years ago were first necessary. I would have thought they would have seen that radical changes were required as regards State investment in manufacturing industries, even at the price that would demand, that is the interference with the rights of the business minority, wealthy or otherwise, which seems to dominate the activities of the Government and its predecessors, even at the expense of hurting these people in their pockets for the sake of our own nation, our unemployed and potential emigrants, I thought they would recognise the need for the radical changes which the Taoiseach referred to in 1930 when he said that if we did not get prosperity within the system he would go outside it. Surely the case has been made for the Taoiseach to go outside the system which has been tried with such diligence and dedication by people who believed in the private enterprise system——

Is the Deputy advocating radical changes which require legislation?

Changes in Government policy.

Changes that would require legislation?

No, Sir, a change in the attitude to the use of capital investment. If the Government had increased the allocation of capital for capital development in the Budget it would have been possible to do it.

Without alteration in the legislation?

I do not think it would necessarily have meant a change in the legislation. However, I am talking on broad general principles and saying that if this Government could not see its way to do this on behalf of our own people then they should do it for the solution of the problem in which they have always been first to declare their genuine interest. I think it can be said of the Taoiseach that he has always insisted on his genuine anxiety—I am sure it is genuine—to see the end of Partition. They should have realised that one of the prerequisite conditions for the union of wills which the Taoiseach has spoken of, the ending of Partition by agreement, is the establishment of prosperity down here, first of all, a prosperous society and then a levelling-out of differences in relation to our social status. All these things are needed before there can be an end to Partition by the union of wills which we all wish to see. This could only mean the establishment of a welfare State here in order that the Protestant Unionist, the Catholic Nationalist or the Catholic Unionist would be agreeable to join with us knowing that he would not suffer in consequence as he would now most certainly suffer if he were to join with us certainly, in respect of social services, health services, educational services, old age pensions and other such amenities.

It surprises me that, even if it was not for the much better reasons, such as for the sake of our own people— reasons which appeal to me—but even for the reasons that would help to end Partition and make a real, tangible move towards ending Partition, the Taoiseach has not decided to make the changes needed in our economy, to create the full employment without which, of course, I think it is unrealistic to suggest that we could have a proper welfare State established.

We have failed without doubt. These people will not become second-class citizens or members of a second-class society from the social point of view. Our people have seen the political leaders promise that they could and would end Partition. The leaders have failed to do it even though they have had 35 years now to do it. We have also failed to realise another cherished objective of our political leaders, the revival of the Irish language. That is conceded apparently in the setting up of a commission——

Indeed it is not.

I have the greatest respect for Deputy Ó Briain. I feel he is one of the few genuinely interested in the revival movement but I do not think anybody would try to hold that the attempts of successive Governments to establish the language as the spoken language of the people have not failed. We have failed in that object also and we have now set up a commission. It is as clear as could be to me—I do not know all the members of that commission—that because of its constitution it will not examine the case, the possibility of the language revival, or any new moves that should be taken to revive it, if it is possible to revive it, because they are persons whose minds are already made up. They are persons who are closely associated with the older approach to the language movement. They are not fresh minds or new minds, and will not bring any new or fresh approaches to the consideration of the whole problem.

We have failed to create prosperity in our primary industry, agriculture. There has been very little development in it, and very little expansion of it, considering mechanisation and the advance of mechanisation over the last 100 years. Mechanisation has not been used to the extent that it should have been used. Agriculture has not been used as a source of raw materials for our industries, and the products of agriculture and of fisheries have not been processed to the full extent as food. We have not developed agriculture to anything like the extent that it is capable of being developed.

We have made no attempt to find alternative markets to the very difficult and highly competitive British market. We have made little or no attempt to try to rationalise a marketing system for the farmer. We have made little or no attempt to help him in the establishment of co-operatives from which he could buy the raw materials of his industry, his seed, farm machinery and equipment. Like the rest of the consumers he is at the mercy of the rings, cartels and monopolies which put up the price of the raw materials of his industry, the machinery and implements which he uses. These rings, cartels, and monopolies make it very difficult for him to produce a competitively priced commodity. On the other side, the farmer is at the mercy of a chaotic marketing system and little or no attempt has been made to find new outlets for his products.

I suggested in the past that a number of newly developed colonial societies might have a sympathy towards us and, with modern methods of food preparation, deep freezing, packing and tinning, we would have gone much further and fared better by initiating trade with these new countries.

I am not anxious to interrupt the Deputy but surely that is a matter for the Department of Agriculture? One may not go over every Department on the Taoiseach's Estimate. The Taoiseach is responsible for major aspects of Government policy.

In relation to agriculture, it is clear that no policy has been devised by the Government.

I should like the Deputy to keep to major aspects and not to details.

No policy has been devised for the dynamic development of agriculture. We have failed in that regard also. It is clear that industry has not been developed to the extent that would absorb the young people who will be looking for employment, and also persons unemployed at present. I have already outlined the reason for that failure. It is the failure of private business, private enterprise, to create jobs. Our dependence on the private individual, our belief that prosperity can be achieved as a byproduct of the private individual's pursuit of wealth, has not been justified.

We have failed in regard to the development of another very important industry, the fishing industry. We are now told by the Minister for Lands that we shall need to develop deep water and middle distance fishing fleets.

Surely the Deputy is travelling over the administration of all Departments, and is trying to bring the fault, if there is one, home to the Taoiseach? These matters should be raised on the respective Votes when they come up.

In dealing with these things in a very general way I think the Taoiseach has responsibility for Government policy.

He has not responsibility for the administration of the various Government Departments. He is responsible for major aspects of Government policy. He is responsible to this House for that.

The Taoiseach asked us this morning to apply ourselves to a study of the Irish Statistical Survey which covered all aspects of Government, including the ones I have mentioned, and two I now propose to mention, unemployment and emigration. I think there will be no doubt at all that in relation to unemployment and emigration no solutions whatever have been found for these serious problems. I think that that is the source of the great dissatisfaction, demoralisation and bewilderment which exist.

I think Deputy Costello is quite right. He says there is a state of indifference to politicians, political Parties and parliamentary democracy. I think it is worse than that. The situation has developed into one of contempt for politicians, political Parties and parliamentary democracy. That is largely due to the fact that our political leaders over 35 years have made these wild promises to end Partition, to revive the language, to establish a prosperous agricultural industry, to end unemployment and emigration, and have achieved none of these things. I do not know why the Taoiseach should still think that he can, with any authority, come in here to lecture us on the best ways of solving our problems, or on the likely ways of solving our problems.

As a young man he failed. Certainly, certain achievements were made in the 30's and I am prepared, and always have been on all occasions, to say that advances were made in social legislation, health services, house building and the establishment of industries, but the Taoiseach cannot continue to free-wheel on the goodwill created in the country, by those few prosperous years, for the rest of his life. Without any doubt I think that a case has been made showing that the present Government has no solution whatsoever for the serious problems of Government. Even the Taoiseach must know now in his heart that he cannot offer any solution for these problems. As is pointed out in the survey, there is a crisis in our very existence as a nation. At the present rate of emigration the nation could cease to exist as an entity in about 30 to 40 years. Does the Taoiseach not think it is time that he handed over the wearisome burden of office to his younger, more active colleagues? He has them in his own Government. He surely cannot have so much contempt for them that he does not think they are capable of taking over government and initiating new, virile and dynamic policies. It is true to say that he was in at the birth of our nation, but is it now his ambition to be in at its death?

I have listened to Deputy Dr. Browne with great interest. While he has been speaking, I have been trying to fathom what is in his mind. I have come to the conclusion that it is a good job we have not many more Deputies in the House with the same outlook, because I can only describe it as the outlook of a man completely without hope. I would suggest and recommend to the Deputy that he should spend a little time in the library and, right from the beginning of the re-establishment of this nation 35 years ago, examine everything—the Budgets, the legislation, the different documents that will show him what type of industries we had— and to follow it up year by year.

Is it the type the Deputy brought back from America?

What type?

That is what I should like to know.

I do not know what Deputy McQuillan is talking about. Perhaps he would be a little more lucid? The Deputy is fond of interjecting something that means nothing—just a loud, empty voice. Perhaps Deputy McQuillan would join with Deputy Dr. Browne and see what has been created? I believe they would then come to the conclusion that great success has followed our efforts in the last 35 years, and particularly in the last 30 years. I do not understand this idea of saying everything has ended and that we are here now presiding over the end of this nation. I hope there is a little bit of pride amongst the vast bulk of the Deputies of this House and that they see that further great advances can be made, nationally as well as economically.

I do not know whether it is appreciated that the standard of living of our people has improved out of all hopes and expectations of those who saw the beginning of our State, with this part of the country anyway under its own Government. I have a clear recollection of the standard of living of the people in my own native city. I am happy to say that the standard of living of all of our people has improved. Even those who previously were unemployed, but who were desscribed as destitute, have benefited— not as much as we should like to see, but at least they have been raised considerably from the level in which we found them.

Talking of social services, look through the records and see, as each year followed each year, the development of social services. I do not know whether Deputy Dr. Browne and Deputy McQuillan remember the workhouses that existed in this country. Have they now completely forgotten that such existed because they have not experienced it in their adult lives in the sense of seeing it? I am very happy to belong to the Party which is the present Government of the country because I am satisfied that genuine and honest efforts are being made, and will continue to be made, to make further advances in every sphere of activity here.

I rose particularly to refer to some remark made by Deputy Costello. During the course of his contribution to the debate, he singled me out and paid me a distinct honour. He said it was I, Deputy Briscoe, who had wrecked the housing policy of the Coalition Government. These were the words he used—that I had wrecked the housing policy by what I had said in the House, by what I had said in the corporation and by what I had said outside both these places. Does anybody believe that I, as a member of the Opposition, a back bencher, could have wrecked the housing policy of the Coalition Government, if they had a policy at all? What happened? When Deputy Costello's speech will appear in the verbatim report, it will contain the charge also that I had brought about in the corporation such restrictions in connection with the building of houses under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts that building had stopped. What were the facts?

During 1956 and 1957, local authorities, and in particular the one of which I am a member, the Dublin Corporation, were faced with a situation where we had a building programme which meant acquisition, clearance and development of sites, seeking tenders for schemes of two and, maybe, up to four- or five-roomed houses, submitting schemes to the Local Government Department for sanction and then asking tenders from contractors for the building of the houses. We went along those lines but we came to the point where, as far as ordinary contracts for housing schemes were concerned, in connection with housing schemes actually in the course of construction we had no money. We could not get money. I remember the matter was brought to a head when we sought a public loan. All Dublin Corporation public loans were always underwritten and guaranteed by the Government.

Candidly, I do not see how all this ties up with the Taoiseach's Estimate.

I am answering what was said by Deputy Costello. I want to show categorically that, if there was a wrecking of the housing policy under the Coalition, it was wrecked by themselves.

Surely that should be raised on the Vote for Local Government?

The Deputy would not come in and speak on the Vote for Local Government.

I do not know whether you were here when Deputy Costello was speaking, Sir. I took the precaution of going up to the office in this House and I read the proof of Deputy Costello's speech. It is in this regard he made his reference to me. As from to-morrow, when the verbatim report is circulated, there will be a statement by Deputy Costello on the records of this House that it was I, Deputy Briscoe, who had brought in new restrictions attaching to Small Dwelling (Acquisition) Acts loans. I want to say that these restrictions were brought in by order of the Coalition Government. In the financing of small dwellings, at one stage we owed £800,000 to the people who were building these houses for borrowers. We had not got that money. The Government then made available £1,000,000 which enabled us meet our obligations to the extent of £800,000, but we were only then enabled to allow a further £200,000 worth of houses to be built—some 100 houses.

What were the restrictions laid down by the Coalition Government? I am sorry Deputy O'Donnell is not here. I am sorry Deputy Sweetman is not here. They were the members of the Government then. They received deputation after deputation from representatives of the Dublin Corporation. I was one of the members of the deputations. When we were asking and giving facts about these things, they withdrew the right of the corporation to give money for loans for private houses if the applicants did not qualify for a supplementary grant. The matter was so serious that I took the best advice I could at the time from colleagues of my own as to what could and should be done in order to stop the rot that was setting in.

The failure of the Coalition Government in the question of housing in Dublin City was well recognised by the ordinary citizen of the city. The Minister for Local Government yesterday, in answer to a question by Deputy O'Donnell, gave the actual figures of moneys withheld by the Local Loans Fund from the other local authorities.

I have given the Deputy a certain latitude——

This Government has restored complete confidence——

You are building all the houses now.

In the next few years we shall, thank goodness, have built all the houses that are needed. We shall continue to build houses as they are needed to meet obsolescence or even further natural growth of the population.

The Deputy should now come to the Taoiseach's Estimate.

I do not know to what extent the Taoiseach's Estimate is or is not responsible for the policy of restoring the availability——

That is Local Government administration.

The Government has restored the availability of finance to enable local authorities to do their job properly and to the extent to which it is needed to be done by them. I listened to the speech made to-day by Deputy Dr. Browne. Other Deputies have also spoken.

Very few other Deputies.

Deputy Dr. Browne spoke as if there were no confidence in this Government. There was the suggestion that people were becoming contemptuous or negligent of their responsibilities as citizens with regard even to the election of members of this House. There was the suggestion that there is grave disappointment.

There is despair.

There is no despair now.

There is.

There is no despair now. There is a re-awakening of hope in the people. The people are not so stupid as to accept what Deputy Dr. Browne suggests, namely, that you can accomplish in any year or in the lifetime of any Government all your aims and ambitions and that you can have everybody satisfied and everybody happy.

You want about 40 years.

We would want about 500 years if Deputy McQuillan's Party were ever to come along.

At the rate at which you are going, nobody will be left in the country.

The census of population will show that the population of this country has not fallen to any extent. It is true that, as a result of emigration in every year of all the years about which we have been talking, the population of the country has been kept static.

It is lower than ever this year. The Taoiseach has the statistics before him.

As a result of what? Since when?

Ask the Taoiseach.

I am asking the Deputy to get up and substantiate what he is saying.

I shall, when I speak.

The Deputy should know now the extent to which the population of the City of Dublin will listen to his advice. The Deputy had an experience for the first time in his life of participating in an election in Dublin City. He has learned that probably he will be more successful in the constituency to which he belongs.

I shall be back here again, too.

I did not say the Deputy would not. What I said was that the Deputy has learned by experience that the citizens of Dublin are not prepared to swallow him.

They did not swallow much from Fianna Fáil in the last by-election.

Deputy McQuillan must cease interrupting.

I am trying to help Deputy Briscoe.

Or to encourage him.

Does the Deputy not realise that the people of the Twenty-Six Counties have now put into Government a Party with an absolute majority?

All the worse for the country.

All the worse for the Deputies opposite. It will be much worse for the Deputies opposite the longer we stay in office. I believe that, at the end of the period of office of this Government, a few Parties will be forgotten about and that there will be others much smaller even than when they came into this House this time.

Why do some people not accept decisions? The people of the country have stated clearly: "We have had enough of Coalitions. We have had two experiences of them. We have now restored single Party Government. Single Party Government is now being given an opportunity of trying to do, within the resources at its disposal, the best it can for the people of this nation." When the end of the period of office of this Government is reached, and when another election is held, it will be for the people to judge whether or not further progress has been made.

I am quite satisfied, and I say it without any reservations, that since the re-election of Fianna Fáil as a Government public confidence has been restored; hope is in the minds and hearts of the people; progress is being made every day, at what pace one cannot say exactly, but certainly, as year will follow year of the period of office of Fianna Fáil, the creation of new industries will follow and increased employment will follow; I hope a fall in the emigration figures will follow.

I am not prepared to follow the lines of thought of Deputy Dr. Browne and to say that everything is ended and that this country is finished. I do not know if people study problems that arise in other countries. Some of the wealthiest nations in the world with most progressive people, with the most up-to-date methods of production in every industrial commodity, and so on, have ups and downs. They have seasonal periods of unemployment. Numbers of their citizens undergo unemployment. We are doing the best we can for those of our people who are at the very lowest level and we hope, as time goes on, to do more.

Deputy Dr. Browne talked against private enterprise. It reminded me of the first few months of office of the first Coalition Government. What did we have then? We had definite expressions of hostility and objection to the development of the tourist trade. We had expressions of opinion to the effect that these foreigners should not be allowed to come in here to take the bread and butter off the table of our people. We had the destruction of our trans-Atlantic air service because it was said that this was a prestige project and that the only people who would be able to use it would be millionaires from other lands. Our trans-Atlantic air service was destroyed and our equipment sold.

Will the Deputy please come to the Vote?

Tell us what Gladstone said years ago.

I am not saying what Gladstone said but I am saying what the Deputy and his colleagues said.

What did we say?

You would not allow tourists. You would not allow private enterprise to have profits from the creation of industry. You have now learned that tourism is a good thing for the country. I think Deputy Lynch will agree with me on that.

I do not agree that the Coalition Government tried to do away with tourism.

Read the speeches of Deputy Dillon and Deputy Norton.

I say that they said it. We have now reached the stage where we accept the incentive of profit for private enterprise and we no longer say that the entrepreneur should be put in gaol. I should like to point out to Deputy Dr. Browne and to Deputy McQuillan that we have a Constitution which is the basis of our laws and which recognises the rights of private property.

Deputy Dr. Browne said that the only possibility of this country saving its people and securing unity between North and South was that we should become a welfare state. I do not think the Deputies on the opposite benches will subscribe to that. I think the question of Partition will ultimately be solved. I believe that if, in the North, they became an absolute welfare State, it would be one of the reasons why they would want to come down here and join with us where there is a real recognition of individual liberty and freedom.

The real reason I rose to speak was because of the references made to me by Deputy J.A. Costello. If it was correct that, instead of wrecking the policy of the Coalition Government, I had wrecked the Coalition Government itself I would be far better satisfied. That is what I believe was in the mind of Deputy Costello when he spoke.

Enthusiasm is no substitute for facts and still less for a lack of policy. Listening to some of the speeches here to-day one would be pardoned for labouring under the impression that some people think that talk in a particular manner or fashion can provide the remedy for some of the problems which affect the country. I believe that there is no quick or easy solution for many of the problems which confront the country. Some of these problems are peculiar to this country; others have similarities with problems elsewhere.

Looking at what has been accomplished elsewhere there is no indication that policies or programmes have been implemented rapidly to solve similar economic difficulties or to provide remedies for them. In no country in the world has a plan been adopted which provided for an absolute remedy for some of the problems comparable with those that exist here. We should endeavour to ascertain from facts and information at our disposal what is wrong with the policies that have been adopted, or the lack of policies or programmes in certain respects, and what changes are necessary or desirable in our national economic policy.

Much talk has been devoted to what has been called the twin problems of emigration and unemployment. Repeated references have been made to the statistics published in the recent statistical survey for 1957. Looking at some of the figures there certain interesting facts emerge. Table 23 on page 41 gives details of the census of population. Subsequent paragraphs refer to changes in the population during inter-censal periods. One of the significant and interesting conclusions made as a result of these figures is that the drop in population was less in the first decade of the State, between 1926 and 1936, than in the course of subsequent censuses.

On page 43 reference is made to the fact that the average yearly net emigration was higher between 1951 and 1956 than during any comparable period shown in the table and that the rate of net emigration per thousand of the average population increased steadily in each inter-censal period since the period 1926-36 when it stood at 5.6 per thousand. Subsequently, in the decade 1936-46 it was 6.3 per thousand of the population and in the period 1946-48 it was 8.2 per thousand. The censuses subsequently were more frequent and between the years 1951-56 the rate of emigration per thousand was 13.4. I mention these figures because I believe that whatever deductions can be drawn from them are not easily ascertainable by reading them. Experts, either economists or others qualified to evaluate returns impartially, should be requested to examine the significance of these returns and endeavour to ascribe, if it is possible to do so, the reasons for the variation over the last 36 years.

During the periods I have mentioned, with one exception, there has been a continuous decline in our population. The exception was for the census taken for the period 1946 to 1951. It may be that the rise, which was a comparatively small one of 6,000 persons, was due to the fact that that period coincided with the years immediately after the war when a number of people were obliged because of the war to remain in Britain and were unable to return home—there may be some explanation of that sort—but the significant fact is that the rate of emigration per thousand was lower for the first census period 1926 to 1936, which embraces a period in which we had the first Fianna Fáil Government, and that the figures for subsequent periods, alternating between Fianna Fáil and the inter-Party, show a decline more or less comparable for each period.

I do not believe that any real progress can be made by tearing down or trying to tear down what is already being built up. On the other hand we should endeavour to discover from the published facts which are available in great detail in a variety of official publications, and where possible and necessary, make changes which are desirable and which will operate to improve the national economy.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

In discussing this Estimate it is not possible to consider in detail, but rather in general, aspects of Government policy or general economic policy as the case may be. The returns which are published for agriculture during the past year indicate a reasonably satisfactory result but that result can only be maintained if measures are taken to provide a basis for further expansion.

Reference has been made here on a number of occasions recently to the need for speeding up the measures for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. I believe we have not realised sufficiently the urgency of that problem. Just four years ago the scheme was initiated. It commenced after the signing of the Grant Counterpart Agreement with the United States and compared with Britain, which is the principal market for livestock, we are many years behind. They have had over 20 years experience of intensive measures. I should like to hear from the Government what steps will be taken to speed up and to expand that service. When the scheme was initiated four years ago, the sum of money provided initially was probably sufficient to start it and additional sums have been provided since. However, in view of the declared policy that by 1960 many areas in Britain and a number of ports of entry will be cleared of tuberculosis and that animals not free from the disease will be refused entry into those areas, it behoves all of us in this country and the Government, as the responsible authority, to expedite, and do whatever is necessary financially to expedite, the expansion of that scheme.

The other matter concerning agriculture which I wish to mention is the Agricultural Institute. Just over four years ago I negotiated and signed the basic agreement with the United States ambassador for the use of the Grant Counterpart Fund. Although discussion had been proceeding for some years prior to the negotiation of that agreement, a great deal of talk and criticism flared up from a variety of interests, some of them vested interests, concerning the establishment of the institute. I refer to that for the reason that some of the most vocal critics of the delays, of the lack of progress and the failure to implement policies or programmes, are those who themselves by their action refuse to allow that institute to be established. Nobody presents reasonable criticism or even unreasonable criticism over a certain period but ultimately decisions must be taken and, although it is now just over four years since that agreement was signed, the institute is not yet established. Because of the criticism and objections made by a variety of interests the legislation to establish it was delayed. It was initially introduced in our time and the present Government has continued it and the Act is now law.

I notice that the necessary steps are being taken to establish the institute. I think it true to say in this matter that, whatever other criticism may be levelled at either or both Governments, the delay was not due to Government inactivity or lack of effort, planning, co-operation, or goodwill on behalf of any of the responsible authorities in the various Government Departments. But the delay in this case has extended already over a period of four or five or six years and now, with its establishment imminent, it will take another year or two before any worth-while results can be expected from the institute. It is a good thing, however, that the controversy has ended and that the institute is on the point of coming into existence. People who utilise the freedom which those without responsibility can use for the purpose of criticism, for the purpose of objecting to proposals which are made, should ponder the consequences of using that right without measuring fully the responsibility which should attach to it.

In the case of industrial development, the past year has seen little expansion apart from some increase in output. I believe it is now generally recognised that the weapon of protection as a means of developing industry has been exploited nearly to the full and that, in fact, in some cases, protection alone, while providing assistance for an individual industry or even for a group of industries, may create problems elsewhere. Quite recently an example of that sort occurred where a duty was placed on certain cotton goods. That duty has raised the price of a variety of articles of cotton to the trade generally, for the purpose of providing protection for an individual factory or one or two factories, as the case may be. I mention that because I believe that real progress in the future will have to be on different lines and that the highly competitive conditions which exist at present whether or not the Free Trade Area comes into existence —and that is extremely doubtful— make it imperative that efficiency, technical skill and knowledge should form the basis on which our industrial fabric should be framed.

There is general agreement in the House on the desirability of securing foreign investment and foreign technicians who have knowledge and experience. I do not believe we shall see any great contribution from foreign investment here and I think we shall have to rely, as in the past, to a very considerable extent on our own resources. We have had some notable examples of foreign technicians providing the know-how, technical skill and experience either in collaboration with Irish technicians or alone, and even in recent times we have had such examples in the case of the oil refinery and of those who have come to develop the mineral resources at Avoca, but on many occasions when we speak of the need for new industries we overlook our responsibility for maintaining existing ones and in some cases overlook the burdens placed on these industries either by the general level of taxation or by taxation in specific cases.

I want to refer to one matter discussed here on a few occasions recently. That is the decision to continue and, by reason of the Government's alteration of a decision, to maintain the duty on newsprint. That duty affects an industry that gives a great deal of employment directly and indirectly. It was originally imposed as a temporary measure to deal with the balance of payments problem but it was never intended to remain. It has recently been made permanent. That adds a burden to all industries in the country coming within the ambit of the duty, especially newspapers and periodicals using newsprint. That industry gives a great deal of direct employment and the indirect employment is probably even greater. It is a duty maintained at a time when encouragement and assistance are being offered to external investors to invest here. We are maintaining at this time a penal tax on an existing established industry.

Not merely is it a burden directly but the newsprint industry here has to compete with a very powerful industry of a similar nature in Britain that is enabled to flood this country with a variety of periodicals and newspapers and it has available far greater resources, a far larger reading population and, in consequence, is in a position to throw on to this market the surplus left over when it has satisfied its home needs. I therefore believe this is a special case in which a decision should be taken. I pressed the Minister concerned, the Minister for Finance, on it and he said it was not possible to revoke it this year, at any rate, because of the revenue factor involved. I understand the total amount involved is about £100,000 and, at the rate at which revenue was running this year, it is obvious that sum would not seriously affect the revenue return, while the advantages which would be derived from revoking the duty would be considerable.

Another industry which is sometimes referred to as offering great possibilities for expansion, and for which in this year's Budget a small sum of money was set aside for publicising it, is the distilling industry. That industry, in the main, provides male employment and draws its resources from home-grown materials. It has a great tradition behind it but it has to compete with one of the most financed competitors in the world, the Scotch distiller. I believe that the measures taken, both by this Government and the previous Government, are entirely inadequate to extend whiskey sales in the dollar market. I believe that not merely should further steps be taken but that the whole question of the level of taxation on that industry should be re-examined.

In seeking to encourage external investment here we have recently amended the Control of Manufactures Acts. I do not think anyone is entirely happy about the method in which that was done. In fact, it is questionable whether in some respects the whole atmosphere surrounding that discussion has not made the position worse, even if the actual statutory and legal position is somewhat better. No restrictions of any sort should be placed on the entry of foreign capital into this country. We have had extensive experience by different Governments of the comparative lack of success of our efforts in that sphere and I believe that the primary success of our industrial development will depend on our own exertions and our own capital. Whatever about the acquisition of technical knowledge or skill, in the main we shall have to rely on our own capital here. If we are to attract external investment no legislative provisions of any sort should be allowed to interfere, or even to give the suggestion that there is here what are regarded as bureaucratic and State restrictions which are so strongly resented, particularly in the United States and Canada.

The most pressing problem for a great number of people is the high and rising cost of living. The abolition last year of the food subsidies caused a very serious increase in the cost of bread, flour and butter. Over the last 12 months while there was an eight point increase, I think, in the consumer price index, the cost of food alone increased by 13 points. The cost of bread increased by approximately 50 per cent., flour by over 70 per cent. and butter by a considerable sum.

Subsequent to those increases transport charges have pressed heavily on users of the public transport system and, in addition, health charges have been increased, pressing on in most cases the same section of the people. While all are affected by increased prices charged for food, a great many of those who have been obliged to bear increased transport charges in the way of bus fares, have also been obliged to meet the increase in health charges because they are the people who come within that category. It is, therefore, important that no action of the Government should make that situation worse.

Recently we enacted a measure dealing with the purchase of tea. I do not want to go into the detailed administration of individual Departments, but this is a matter of general public interest. That measure confines the purchase of tea to a company set up under statute. I have read a letter which that company has sent to a tea trader who is not a member of it, informing him that if they are to provide services—and they are the only company authorised to import tea—they will charge 5 per cent. for those services. This man is not in a very large way of business but he said it would mean £18 a week additional in his case. That charge, of course, he will have to recover from the purchaser who is, in effect, the consumer.

I believe that any measure that affects a commodity so vital to the community, because this country is a very great consumer of tea—we consume in the region of between 22,000,000 and 24,000,000 lb. of tea per annum and I need not stress or elaborate on the importance of tea as a beverage in every household in the land—and anything that involves an increase in the price of that commodity because of a State decision, or the decision of a Government Department, is a matter that requires urgently to be re-examined.

The news in the last few days shows a a grave international situation because of events in the Middle East. Much of the unrest is of long-standing, aggravated by attempts to employ artificial remedies where an entirely different approach was, and is, essential. World events may have serious repercussions on this country. What is happening elsewhere is not passing unnoticed here and is influencing the minds of many people. So far as this country is concerned our interests and the interests of a great many, if not all, small countries lie in the preservation and maintenance of peace which is vital to our very existence. Many of the problems which exist in the world have their origin in mistaken policies adopted in the past. The area at present affected has been for a great number of years a source of potential trouble. We can only hope that the authority of the United Nations and the influence and power of the Free World will be such that world peace will be maintained.

As far as this country is concerned, the only remaining political problem is the solution of Partition. While differences arise on the method of achieving that aim, all Parties in the House and all sections outside are agreed on the aim of a united Ireland. Therefore, it is vital that care should be taken to ensure that national policy must be decided by Dáil Éireann and the Government responsible to the Dáil. Whatever decisions and actions are carried out must be based on the views of the majority of the people. While there is general agreement on the aim of ending Partition and of a united Ireland, differences have arisen in the past, and even exist at present, on how that aim may be realised. Public representatives in all Parties and those who have responsibility for guiding public opinion have in existing circumstances, and particularly in the light of the international situation, a heavy responsibility to see that public opinion is moulded and influenced in the right direction. It is not sufficient to say that nothing has been done about the Partition problem or that, because Partition still exists, the very existence of it entitles any group in the community to take whatever action they think is appropriate.

Frequently, too much attention has been paid to publicity and not enough to the requirements of a practical policy. Publicity may be useful or it may not. Where it wins sympathy and understanding for our objectives, it is beneficial but if it shows us in the contrary light, it is not helpful. Therefore, it is essential that we should realise that the solution of Partition, in common with a number of other problems, depends on our own exertions and on our own efforts. What has already been achieved here—the winning of freedom for the State established here—was, in the main, due to our own exertions and to the exertions of those who have gone before. With the exception of the very generous and welcome help extended by the United States and by our people in other countries, in the main, that success was due to our own efforts. Therefore, it is obvious from experience of our own history that the solution of the problem of Partition depends in the main of the people in both parts of the country.

We must seek to ensure that national policy is so directed that all sections are attracted to the idea and to the ideal of a united Ireland, that where necessary we should review existing policies or actions, continue those likely to lead to progress and reject those that have been found to lead nowhere or which fail to achieve what was expected from them. It is vital that no support should be given to any irregular force, no matter for what purpose. Anyone who, by the expression of opinion—and particularly those in public positions whose views carry weight—encourages these activities should ponder the consequences of his action.

Unfortunately, many of the mistakes made in the Middle East and in dealing with problems, including our own, are traceable to mistakes in British foreign policy over a long period. To proceed on the basis that conditions in the world to-day are the same as in the days of Palmerston is a contributory factor to many of the difficult problems existing in so many places. To-day, however, the dominant role in international affairs is played, not by Britain, but by the United States on the one hand and Russia on the other. The United States has repeatedly given evidence of a capacity for world leadership and it has not the colonial record that has been such a difficult legacy in the case of British foreign policy. We look with confidence tempered with anxiety, at the heavy responsibility which the Government and people of the United States have to bear, recognising that great sacrifices will have to be made to preserve the liberties of the Free World. What has been achieved by our own people can be extended, provided we show the same unity of purpose and the same determination to solve this problem as was shown in securing the establishment of an independent State for this part of the country.

The only other matter I should like to refer to is to ask the Taoiseach if he has any information on what progress has been made concerning the Lane pictures. Have there been any recent developments? One gathers the impression that not the same public interest is focussed on this matter as was the case some time ago. I should be glad to hear if any recent developments have taken place.

I was disappointed at the contribution of Deputy J.A. Costello this morning in so far as he went back again to the quite unfounded accusations that the members of the Party now forming the Government had, at the last election, held out promises of starting policies which would have immediate beneficial results on unemployment and emigration. The Taoiseach set the example, which was followed by all those of us who took part in that election. He made it perfectly clear that there was no easy solution for unemployment and emigration though these were two of the major problems facing the country. There was no magic touch-stone or magic formula whereby everything which was wrong would suddenly become right. Even if there were such, I cannot believe it would be healthy. The fact remains that, during that election and ever since, we made it perfectly clear that the only remedy is through the hard, unremitting labour not just of the Government but of every member of the public.

Reference was made by Deputy Dr. Browne to a loss of confidence in parliamentary institutions. I do wish that people in public life would not make such irresponsible statements. The only people who are constantly stressing this loss of confidence in parliamentary institutions is the small number of newspaper editors who have a rather over-developed imagination and also defeated politicians who feel that their defeat of their lack of success at a by-election is because the public have lost confidence in parliamentary institutions. It is not a fact. There is no reason to say that the poll at elections is steadily getting less and less. I grant that the poll at the last by-election was very low. There are numerous reasons for a low poll on that occasion but certainly it cannot be said that there was a loss of confidence in parliamentary institutions.

The very great majority of the people believe in parliamentary democracy. It is wickedly irresponsible of persons in public life to tell people that they have lost confidence in such institutions. Those of us in public life have a tremendous responsibility because the average member of the public is so easily led. If you tell the public that they have lost confidence, they will lose confidence simply because you have more or less told them to do so. I do not believe there is any spontaneous loss of confidence amongst the people at all and I should like to go on record to that effect.

Deputy Dr. Browne and also, I think, Deputy J.A. Costello referred to a general spirit of gloom and a lack of self-confidence in the country. Certainly, that was the case when this Government took office. It is never easy to find a remedy for a loss of morale. As I said on another debate, it is easy to start a slump but it is a shockingly hard job to stop it.

And it is particularly difficult for the creators to provide the solution.

The real trouble was that the creators of the slump decided they could take no further action. They dissolved the House and, therefore, they did not get a chance to find a solution or certainly to restore confidence. Having created a drastic trade recession, with mounting unemployment, they just walked out knowing that they had no solution.

Self-confidence is returning, though slowly. Once again, we find that business men are planning ahead with confidence. They are planning for export. They are planning for increased production. It is a very slow job.

I would be the first to admit that this is no time for complacency—and the Taoiseach has never given any indication that he thinks otherwise. At the same time, this is not a time for creating alarm and despondency. People who do so in this House or outside it are doing a very bad day's work for the country. Nobody on this side of the House is complacent for a moment about unemployment, emigration or anything else. We are trying to work steadily towards a known objective.

I appreciate that it is difficult for members of the present Opposition to speak on this Estimate with any great conviction. It must be disheartening for them as an Opposition, though I hope it is not disheartening for them in their private lives, to find that conditions are showing at least a tendency to improve. It is much easier for an Opposition if things are getting worse and worse. Where, however, the situation shows very definite signs of improvement, it makes it more difficult to offer either constructive or destructive criticism. For that reason, I was very glad to hear much of what Deputy Cosgrave said. I think he was making a very good effort to offer constructive and helpful criticism in some of the statements he made.

This improvement, such as it is, is due mainly to an increased atmosphere of political and economic stability in the country. The main trouble in the past, during the Coalition period, was that there was no stability. Nobody outside and possibly nobody even inside the political Parties concerned ever knew what the Coalition Government would do next. It was always the toss of a coin as to who would hold the whip hand at any moment.

Does the Deputy know what he will do next?

I certainly do and that is to try to explain to this House, for the benefit of those who have not yet appreciated it, that what we are trying to do is to increase the confidence of people in themselves; to leave it to the private individual and to private enterprise to increase production both on the agricultural and industrial fronts and to increase employment, thereby striking one blow at least against emigration.

It would be so nice if we could just say: "These problems come under headings A, B, C and D, and it is as easy as all that." I think that Deputy T. Lynch knows in his heart and soul that there is not an easy way out. It is a matter of hard slogging at a consistent policy.

Then Deputy MacEntee was wrong when he said, while he was in Opposition, that it is the duty of the Government to formulate a programme whereby emigration can be stopped.

I imagine it is more than possible that the Minister for Health will speak on this Estimate and doubtless he will answer for himself. It is never easy for a back bencher to answer for a Minister as I am sure Deputy Lindsay well knows.

Mention has been made of Partition. I do wish that that word could be banished forever from the language. Deputy Cosgrave did mention the word but I was glad that he coupled with it the question of unity. The whole problem should be viewed purely as a matter of unity and disunity. I am convinced that if the Border went tonight, and if all British troops disappeared from Northern Ireland overnight, we would not be one inch nearer unity than we are to-day. What we must do is to unite people who are at present disunited. That is a difficult job in view of past and recent history. To get a spirit of unity in the country we need to have stability again, we need respect for the law and respect for the Oireachtas. Those are essential. There has been a very regrettable outburst of lawlessness in the country with which the previous Government found itself unable to deal.

Oh, no. The Deputy is inviting a lot of trouble now.

I am not afraid of inviting trouble. I am merely stating facts.

Deputy Booth should be allowed to make his speech. Other Deputies will get ample opportunity of making their speeches.

We have been forced to take very strong action and such resolute action was not taken by our predecessors. I am all in favour of letting the law take its course. All my training would lead me towards that but when an illegal organisation sets itself up in armed opposition to the State and to the courts, and does not recognise the Oireachtas or the courts set up by law, and is prepared to intimidate the judiciary and juries, it is impossible to deal with such a situation in the normal way.

Nobody could be more anxious than I that anyone accused of an offence should have a fair trial. But when I know that the accused is a member of an illegal organisation or that there is reason to suspect that he is and that that organisation is prepared to intimidate the jury set up to try this accused man so that he will get a fraudulent acquittal, then the ordinary court system breaks down and becomes of no use whatever.

The only alternative is to make sure that anyone who is reasonably suspected of illegal activities would be put out of the way until such time as he is prepared to give an undertaking that he would comply with the law of the land. It is most regrettable that this should have to happen but we have tried to grapple with this problem. We have tried to establish law and order in the land again, not, I regret to say, with complete success. Anyone in public life must take a fair responsibility for what is taking place and we must all act together to ensure that no encouragement is given to these young men to take action which they know is wrong and ill-advised.

We have got to try to live as Irishmen and live together. It is a matter of great pride to me, as a member of this Party, that the two leading members of our Government are both people who are acceptable in the North. Anyone who goes there knows that the Taoiseach is welcome in Belfast at any time and that the Tánaiste has been invited there and is welcome there. You only have to ask any member of the Government of Stormount as to whether they would prefer a visit from anyone in the present Opposition to have it made quite clear that he is persona non grata.

That is most interesting.

That is probably because it has been clearly established that, while Unionists disagree radically with the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste on many points, they appreciate that they are men of principle, men with whom they can talk whether they agree with them or not. I would advise members of the Fine Gael Party to go North and ask whether any of their ex-Ministers would be welcome to go to Belfast and speak at a public meeting. They will find that they are not. I refer to that because it is only men of principle and probity who can contribute anything to this question of disunity.

We have been able, not to do anything very startling, but we have been able to make steady progress. We have been able, with the co-operation of the Provisional United Trade Union Organisation and the Federated Union of Employers, to achieve some stability in wages. We have been able to create conditions in which industry and agriculture have been able to increase productivity. I am far from satisfied on the question of the establishment of new industries but here I must admit that it is a slow job. You cannot establish a factory or a new business in less than two or three years. We are making steady progress. That is what is needed and not starting booms and slumps.

Deputy Cosgrave made a reference to the international situation. Here again I feel that the Government deserves great credit for its prompt answer to the appeal of the United Nations Secretary. I have long felt that we should take a more active part in international affairs and in the working activities of the United Nations. So far as I know this was the first occasion that a request came to an Irish Government from U.N.O. When we were asked to send observers to the Lebanon they were sent there at once.

Those officers in the Defence Forces are probably now in a certain amount of danger but, knowing them as I do, and I know some of them, I am perfectly convinced that they will behave in an exemplary manner no matter what conditions may arise. I hope everybody will join in expressing our concern for them with our confidence that, whatever they are called on to do, they will do it as Irish soldiers should.

We are trying, as a Party and a Government, not to be too introspective. That would be very unhealthy. We are trying to deal with our local, internal problems but we are trying also to make some contribution to the world in which we live. For that reason we have nothing to be ashamed of. We can take a certain amount of pride in our achievements. At the same time there is still no reason for relaxing our efforts or for any complacency. I would hope that the speakers from the Opposition would contribute in the national interest towards the restoration of public confidence by refraining from criticism unless they honestly feel they must criticise. I do not want to limit them in their criticism but I would warn them against spreading unnecessary alarm and despondency which would have a bad effect on national development generally.

The Government has been trying, with some success, to grapple with the problems with which it has been faced and given co-operation and more time —not an indefinite time, of course, but some more time—the progress which has already begun to show itself will continue and as progress continues the rate of progress will increase.

I usually make up my mind that, no matter what is said in this House, I shall not be led astray by the previous speakers, but I usually fall by the wayside. Deputy Booth said he hoped the members of the Opposition when speaking would not say anything that would bring about a cloud of despondency amongst the people. Deputy Booth need not have said that to the members of this Opposition, because whatever we could be accused of or whatever our faults and failings, we never ran down the country for the sake of political advantage. I remember Deputy Seán Lemass's pawnbroker sign when we issued a loan and I remember the former Minister for Finance, now the Minister for Health, advising people not to subscribe to a national loan. Only last year we had another former Minister for Finance, Deputy Aiken, now the Minister for External Affairs, saying that nobody would put a bob into the country. Notwithstanding all these remarks Messrs. Arthur Guinness and Son, Limited, invested £500,000 in Bord na Móna as if to stuff it down their throats that there was hope for the country.

Partition is often used as a smoke-screen especially when the Government wants to draw people's attention away from economic problems. We have gone into the slough of the main in regard to Partition. One of the main reasons for that is the intolerance of some of our people and the intolerance of our fellow countrymen in Northern Ireland. Deputy Booth was saying here that it was wonderful that the two leading members of the Government were welcomed in Belfast. I agree with the Deputy that it is a wonderful thing but when the man whose seat I have the honour to hold in Waterford, John Redmond, went to Belfast he was called a traitor.

I want to ask the Taoiseach if the way the year has passed has been satisfactory? The attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party to this Dáil, the manner in which they have attended to their parliamentary business, the way Ministers avoid answering questions here, the truculent and impertinent manner in which Ministers introduce their Estimates here—is that good? Is it good that the leader of the Irish Government spoke here this morning when introducing the Vote for his Department with only four members of his Cabinet and 15 members of his Party sitting behind him, while the Opposition gave him the compliment of having 23 members present? Does that show that the people in this great 78 member Party are taking their parliamentary duties seriously. They have run away from them in the past few weeks. Members just came in, sat down for a minute and ran out again. I had the experience of being a teller in a division and the Government members all charged in and asked: "What are we voting for?" or "Which way are we voting?" They did not know what business was on in the House or what was the intention of the Government.

Was it good when the Minister for External Affairs introduced his Vote here in the most truculent and impudent manner? Not one of the members of the Fianna Fáil Party that were selected by the Taoiseach to go to Strasbourg, to represent us abroad, spoke on the Vote for External Affairs. They had nothing to contribute and only two of the people who have been sent to Strasbourg at the expense of the Irish taxpayer, namely, Deputy Sir Anthony Esmonde and Deputy Declan Costello, showed any interest in that subject. Those who represent us aboard should be able to give an account of themselves when the Vote for the Department of External Affairs is before the House.

As far as the policy of the Department of External Affairs is concerned, the Minister when introducing that Vote mentioned nothing about policy, what our policy was or where we were going. To-day he answered a question and said he intervened with a friendly Power to look after any of our people who might be in Iraq. I asked him what was the friendly Power and he said he could not tell me. I suspect the friendly Power is Great Britain and——

Supposing we ask somebody to do something for us, we cannot say anything until he says "Yes".

He could have said to whom he had made the representations.

That may not be advisable either. If I asked somebody to do something and I tell beforehand that I am asking him——

He might be in doubt as to where he stood.

That is so.

Men of principle who have been welcomed by the Unionists of Belfast should not have any bother.

Tying up the whole position in relation to Belfast, and so on, let me say that I come from a port city. We looked out on the world on the Macha when she went to the south of France to bring back the body of W.B. Yeats. When she came to the British fortress of Gibraltar flying the Irish tricolour she received a thunderous salute of guns from the British squadron there. That was as it should be. Recently it was not an army squadron that went to Bantry Bay, but a training squadron of the British Navy.

That does not arise on this Estimate.

I thought I could raise it here.

That is a matter for the Minister for External Affairs.

The Minister for External Affairs will not talk. This is our only chance.

It would be irrelevant on this Estimate.

I shall ask the Taoiseach only one question: Does he consider that the action of the Minister for External Affairs did anything to improve our position as far as Partition is concerned? Somebody said in this House to-day that the people were not fools. The people are fools; and they have been fooled by the Fianna Fáil Party time and again. They were fooled with the green bill at the beginning saying Fianna Fáil would cure unemployment and bring back the emigrants. We had Deputy Booth saying to-day that they wanted time, but they did not want time last year when they were to "get cracking". The slogan was: "Vote Fianna Fáil; Put Your Husbands Back to Work". It was just like that. Deputy Lemass has his £100,000,000 plan and 100,000 jobs.

He did not say it would be done at once.

We should send over the present Minister for Industry and Commerce and get him to take the part that is being taken by Jimmy O'Dea because he would be a right leprechaun with the crock of gold. Fianna Fáil was supposed to "get cracking" and to do wonders. Instead they introduced a few smokescreens for the usual Chamber of Commerce dinners all over the country. Everybody listened to the wonders that were to happen. European Free Trade was one of the forms of dope given out-and dope it was, because anybody who examined it thoroughly could see that we could never have anything to do with it because of our hot-house industries and because we give imperial preference to British products coming here in return for imperial preference for our cattle. They do not like the word "imperial" in this House.

They do now.

Yes, when they are being paid for it. Another smoke-screen was the Shannon free port. Instead of following fairies and will-o'-the-wisps, I think we should look to the ports that are working and doing something, the ports that are paying. The Fianna Fáil policy was to centralise everything in the port of Dublin. I have the figures. I am not coming in here as Deputy Briscoe did, holding his thumbs——

As far as Irish shipping is concerned the policy of the Department of Industry and Commerce was to build 10,000 ton ships. I want to say that a stop should be put to that.

That would be a matter for the Estimate for Industry and Commerce rather than for this debate.

I have referred to this so much on the Estimate without effect that I should like to draw the attention of the Taoiseach to it because I do not think he would allow it to go on.

On this Estimate Deputies are confined to broad questions of policy.

It was the policy of that Department to build big ships and leave the little ports out of it. All Irish ports are little ports; Dublin is the only one that can handle these ships.

When the Taoiseach went to form his Government he showed straight away how short of mettle he was in the 78 men that he had. He was not able to select a team out of 78. He had to go outside and I am not saying that to the detriment of the fine man who is dead whom the Taoiseach brought in. I gave him a civic reception when I was Fine Gael Mayor of Waterford even though he was a Fianna Fáil Minister. I do not want any slap back about that. Then, when the Taoiseach found himself without any Minister for Agriculture, he brought in a confessed failure as Minister for Agriculture and I think that was part of the Government's policy——

Ministers may not be criticised on this Vote.

In his statement this morning the Taoiseach referred to the enormous importance of producing tuberculin tested cattle so that all our cattle would be tuberculin tested. I find we have only 58 accredited herds in the whole country. I shall repeat that: we have only 58 accredited tuberculin-tested herds in the whole Country. That is the result of "getting cracking," after 12 months, at a time when we have only a couple of years more to make our cattle T.B. free and when there is a £55,000,000 industry at state. I have the names and addresses of the people who own accredited herds and the name of the Minister for Agriculture is not amongst them. God knows if there was ever a crusade that was a success in this country. One crusade that was supposed to be a success was that of Father Mathew and he achieved success by taking the pledge himself and saying: "Here goes: in the name of God". The Minister should do that himself.

Take the pledge or get an attested herd?

Both. Does the Taoiseach approve of the conduct of his Deputies in this House when, even during the Taoiseach's own statement here this morning we, in the Opposition, had many more people in the House than his Party could muster? While he was making his statement one of his Deputies was reading a newspaper, holding it right out——

This matter is not relevant to the Estimate.

It seems to me that if it is Fianna Fáil policy to ignore——

It is all right; he was reading the Irish Press.

This is not a matter for discussion on this Vote.

Fianna Fáil Deputies take little or not interest in the business of the House. I think that is a matter for the Taoiseach who cannot be here all the time. The other day we had the Minister for Agriculture asleep at times, reading the paper at other times and then he would not reply.

The Deputy should make an effort to get back to the Estimate. Much of this is irrelevant.

Carry on with your lecture.

I wish you would carry on——

I am too disgusted, listening. Redmondites.

(Interruptions.)

I am proud to be a Redmondite. I was never with the emergency men, never with anybody that seized the farmers' beasts. Coming back to the Estimate——

The Deputies opposite always manage to make me do this. They have great fun but I shall let you have blow for blow any time but you have not the pluck to get up——

Is the Deputy addressing the Chair?

I am addressing these gentlemen through the Chair. I do not think it was good that during the passage of the Cereals Bill last week Deputies from the greatest wheat growing counties in the country, Fianna Fáil Deputies, did not think it worth their while to contribute anything to the debate on behalf of their constituents. They had nothings to say, whether they thought the policy was right or wrong. The only one who did get up to speak was a man whose conduct I do not admire in this House but at least he had the courage to say what he thought, and that was Deputy Corry.

Yet he voted for it.

I am talking of the grain growing counties, Kilkenny, Kildare, Wexford, Tipperary, Cork and Meath. The representatives from these counties were silent.

We certainly cannot have a repeat of that debate on this Estimate.

We grow it; we do no talk about it.

It was mentioned that there was a resurgence in industrial activity. I wish I knew where it was. So far as I know there is no resurgence in industrial activity, but the removal of the food subsidises has caused the cost of living to rise, has caused rates to rise, has imposed burdens on small shopkeepers, small farmers and ratepayers in small towns, as well as on big farmers. Business is in a shocking state down the country. I let Dublin speak for itself. Trade is falling off, the population is going down and costs have risen, thanks to the deliberate action of this Government in removing the food subsidises. The impact of the Government's policy in removing these subsidises has been shattering for the past two years and still goes on.

Last Monday night I was at a meeting of Waterford Corporation when we had to bring in a supplementary estimate to meet a rise in wages for our employees necessitated by the removal of the subsidises and the rise in the cost of living. That means we will start next year with a deficit. Deputy Dr. Browne said he thought the Taoiseach should hand over to his younger and more active colleagues. I do not think Deputy Dr. Browne is right at all. I do not think very much of the Taoiseach as a leader, but he has nobody to hand over to. That is the trouble; he is stuck.

Any chance we could win the Deputy over?

You come over this way.

Any kind of a small man could be a big man over there.

That is why I am appealing to the Deputy.

The Coalition were accused of slowing down the housing programme in Dublin, but what has happened during the past 12 months? Were more houses built in Dublin? They have had a year to "get cracking", and I should like to point out to the Taoiseach that they have done nothing, even though we are told the demand for houses exists. The Minister for Local Government has told us that the money does not matter, but the houses are not being built.

In 1957, a sum of £250,000 was voted in the Budget to be used in the improvement of marketing, to explore and find markets and to promote the sale of our goods abroad. I asked the question how much of that money had been spent, and I was told that only £80 or £90 of it had been spent, proving after some 15 months, that nothing had been done.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce went to London where he made speeches about selling our products in London, and spoke about new boards and new organisations to be set up for the promotion of sales of our products in England. The Minister apparently forgot that he was the man who had kicked the teeth out of the London tea merchants in Mincing Lane, two or three months before that. He was asking them to buy our products after he had told them that they dare not come in here to sell tea. Dealing with Government policy——

Dealing with what?

Here we go again.

We ought to find out what is Government policy, but the only time we can get any glimmering on it is when we pick up the newspapers and read the speeches of Ministers at dinners and other functions. The Taoiseach opened something down in Lahinch last Sunday, and he came out with the gospel that tourism was one of our greatest economic propositions, ranking with the cattle trade.

Hear, hear!

I had my poll broken because I tried to say that the cattle trade was necessary to this country.

That was high treason.

I, and all who ever stood with me were hounded and blackguarded everywhere we went. Bills were brought into this House to proscribe it, but now we have got it in the gospel of the leader of this Government that the cattle trade is all right—it is the business.

Deputy Briscoe said that we were trying to wreck the tourist industry. I do not want to say anything about it but, in the name of heaven, what kind of organisation had we looking after the tourist industry up to the time the inter-Party Government got into office? Termonfeckin, Ardmore and Tramore were all beautiful tourist promotions and the less said about them the better, because the taxpayers had to pay and pay heavily for them. The first time I ever got any idea about it was at a meeting of the General Council of County Councils, at a time when people were starting to come in here, when a man got up there and said: "We do not want people coming in here eating our steaks and giving us nothing but paper." This economist is now a member of the Government.

It was great fun interruption me here this evening. But I am clothed in the armour which Fianna Fáil supplied to me. I was brought up in the hard school of the storm of Fianna Fáil interruptions by all their henchmen. We have effected one improvement in the House. The Taoiseach made his statement this morning. As I said twice before, there was a very big attendance of the Opposition. It would be interesting for Deputies to look at the Dáil Debates of the 26th July, 1956 and see how Deputy John Costello, when he was Taoiseach, made his statement. His statement was punctuated, sentence by sentence, by the savage interruptions of a whole horde of interrupters over here. The present Taoiseach sat there at the time and smiled benevolently through the whole performance. I hope the example shown by the Opposition will be a lesson to the Fianna Fáil Party when they are in Opposition, and I hope that will be soon again.

I did not avoid talking about emigration. In regard to unemployment, I said in passing that Fianna Fáil could always fool the unemployed and always did. Unemployment is the Government's responsibility. The leaders of the Government, members of the Government and the Government's newspaper said they could cure unemployment and cure it quickly. All they wanted was an opportunity to "get cracking" and they could do something about it—this wonderful something. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, said he had a solution. He should have gone and boiled his head in it. Where is the solution? Where are all the promises made to the unfortunate people? When the Taoiseach wants to address a lot of Irish people now, he goes to London. Maybe he is not received as well there as he should be. We should stop this nonsense about foreigners and about these hated people over in England when we have the leaders of the Government going over there and saying we want to be friends with them. We read that in the papers, but when it comes to Bantry or something else, we find there is another side.

If the people are to have respect for this Parliament, Deputies, and particularly members of the Government Party, should have respect for it. They should use their parliamentary privileges, attend to their office, and take part in the business of this House. It is not sufficient to be elected, just to get letters and be a messenger boy for your constituents. You are there to represent them and the Irish nation. It is a great honour to do so. The members of the Fianna Fáil Party should take on themselves the responsibility for Government, attend to this House and attend to their business.

I do not intend to delay the House very long. I listened very carefully this morning to Deputy Costello, who led off for the Opposition after the Taoiseach's opening remarks. In the course of Deputy Costello's contribution, he pointed out how perturbed he and other people were at the air of apathy and cynicism that has now become apparent throughout the country in regard to political life. He expressed himself as being rather perturbed last year at the attitude of young people and older people towards this political institution. He went on to say that the air of apathy apparent last year has hardenced since, and has been shown in the manner in which the people have failed to cast their votes on a number of occasions. In addition, he pointed out that, outside this House, the public were beginning to say: "What is the use, they are all the same?" I hope I am not doing him an injustice when I give that as my interpretation of his remarks here to-day.

I should like to suggest that we here must be in a position to set the example if the public outside are to hold the little respect they have left for this House. It is our duty in this House and it is the duty of the Government to ensure that, when matters are discussed and problems raised in this House, the answers given are truthful and factual. At the moment, one of the greatest safeguards the public has against bureaucracy and a form of dictatorship that may be apparent in various Departments is the privilege of extracting from Ministers during Question Time the true facts of the various issues that may be raised.

If Deputies have brought to their notice matters which are of importance and if those Deputies raise questions or problems in this House on behalf of the public, surely the public are entitled to hear the truth to the questions asked? That is why I preface my remarks on this matter by pointing out that Deputy Costello, as Leader of the Opposition, is himself perturbed, and indeed so are many of the public, irrespective of what political Party they may support, at the fact that they are now beginning to believe it is an impossibility to extract in Leinster House, in the course of political debate, what is a fact or what is the truth.

One would imagine that the present Taoiseach, who has, throughout the country, a name for integrity, would be the first to ensure that, no matter who was hurt or where the blame lay, no matter what close friend of his might be hurt in the process of extracting the truth, the truth would be of more importance than the welfare of any member of his Party, be he Deputy or Minister.

I had occasion here very recently to cross swords with the Taoiseach on a matter which I do not propose to reopen on this Estimate except to refer to the actual questions I put to the Taoiseach himself in connection with a matter that was the responsibility of another Minister. Deputies in this House and the public will recall that there was quite a dispute in this House recently between the then acting Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and myself.

The Deputy may not raise a matter of administration, dealing with another Minister, on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

I have pointed out that I do not intend to refer to it in order to make a case now——

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy should get away from specific matters dealing with other Departments.

If the Acting-Chairman will allow me, the case I am making is directly in connection with the Taoiseach's own Department. I asked the Taoiseach a question in this House on the 24th June last. I asked him if he was prepared to set up a committee to inquire into the accuracy or otherwise of statements made in the Dáil on the 17th June in the course of supplementary questions relating to the recent appointment of sub-postmaster in Ballyfermot Upper post office.

Acting-Chairman

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is responsible for that matter. The Taoiseach is not. Therefore, the Deputy may not develop or pursue it.

The Acting-Chairman is being badly advised.

Acting-Chairman

I am making a ruling on what the Deputy is saying. I will not allow him to pursue it.

I have referred to the remarks of Deputy J.A. Costello and others in connection with the example that should be set by Deputies and by the Government to the effect that the truth should be respected in this House. I now state quite bluntly that the present Taoiseach has stood over falsehoods in this House and I have the evidence to prove it. I ask him to set up a Committee of this House to examine into the accuracy or otherwise of my remarks.

Is it in order for a Deputy to declare that the Taoiseach has stood over falsehoods in this House? If it is not, I would ask the Chair to request the Deputy to withdraw the statement.

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy certainly should withdraw that statement.

I am sick and tired of withdrawing statements and of being asked to withdraw the truth.

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy should withdraw the statement he has just made that the Taoiseach has stood over untrue statements in this House.

To my knowledge, whether or not it was through a lack of knowledge of the facts on the Taoiseach's part, in so far as the evidence is at my disposal, the Taoiseach is in the position that he has stood over untrue statements made by the then acting Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy may not explain away his statement. He made a statement which he should not have made.

I repeat that the Taoiseach stood over a false statement in this House which was made by the then acting Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy ought to withdraw that statement or else leave the House.

I am asking that a committee be set up to examine, or otherwise, into this matter. I am sick and tired of being asked to withdraw the truth. That is what I want to see proved here. The former Taoiseach has mentioned——

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy will discontinue his speech and resume his seat. Otherwise he must leave the House.

I cannot withdraw the truth.

Acting-Chairman

I order the Deputy to resume his seat immediately.

This has been a rather interesting debate—interesting because of the lack of contribution to it from Deputies on the Government Benches with the exception of the Taoiseach himself who, in his own inimitable style, sought to create an atmosphere wherein things were not too bad but that we must not be complacent.

The only other item of interest that we have had from the Government Benches has been the rather startling revelation by Deputy Booth that the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce—the head and the deputy-head of this Government— would be welcomed at any time by the Unionists of Belfast in their city. He added the rather significant rider that if any ex-Ministers sought to go to Belfast they would not be so welcomed.

It is rather strange that, on a subject so very dear to the Taoiseach, particularly abroad and notably in his contributions during his period in opposition—the subject of Partition— reference to it was missing from his speech to-day. It is wonderful to hear about this union of heart and spirit of which Deputy Booth told us to-day. It was wonderful to hear that these two people, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, would be welcomed in Belfast because they are recognised by the Unionists of Belfast, no doubt by Unionist standards, as men of principle. That was the only contribution we had to-day from the Fianna Fáil Benches apart from the rather facilely inept statement by the Taoiseach himself.

As has been pointed out by the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Opposition this debate provides an opportunity whereby a survey of Government policy can be made. I do not believe for one moment that the Government have any policy except the policy of hoping that something may happen through world circumstances of which they can boast, or, on the other hand, that world circumstances may be such that their circumstances will leave them with an excuse and an alibi for the fact that they failed to do any better.

"Things began to look right in 1957" said the Taoiseach to-day. If one kept trying to examine the various ways in which things came right, with the obvious implication of the Taoiseach that it is as a result of his presidency of the Government, one would find himself in that mental condition adumbrated by Goldsmith when he talked about the horizon—that however far you follow it it will still be further away.

The Taoiseach uses the expression: "Again we are on the right road." If the right road is to be understood as the road to the North Wall, to Dún Laoghaire, or to Shannon Airport then we are most certainly on the right road. I was hoping to-day that I would hear, as I was sure all northwestern and southern Deputies coming from the coast and congested areas, hoped to hear from the Taoiseach, something of the Government's plans in that regard and something whereby the lot of the people in those areas might be improved. Remarkable as it may seem, the Taoiseach's speech does not contain one reference to the resettlement on the land which he mentioned as Leader of the Opposition in 1956. It does not contain one single reference to the revival or survival of the national language which formed a considerable part of his speech as Leader of the Opposition in 1956.

To-day the Taoiseach did not make a case that he, and those supporting him now in the Government, made no promises to the people in the General Election of 1957. He carefully avoided it. It was left to Deputy Booth to say that such an allegation was quite unfounded. I do not know whether Deputy Booth is innocent or naïve or whether, in the remarkably short time he is in this House, he has got into the channels of brazen effrontery so characteristic of the Fianna Fáil Party.

One would have liked to have heard from the Taoiseach an explanation as to why the promises he made and the promises which were made on his behalf by his spokesmen and candidates, successful or unsuccessful, have not been carried out. Quite obviously the Taoiseach, as well as the other members of his Party, has arrived definitely at the point where public morality is to have a standard laid down as follows—promises are permissible to gain Government authority and, having gained it, performance is of no consequence.

How can one blame, as Deputy Booth seeks to blame, the Leader of the Opposition for speaking about cynicism, disillusionment and indifference among our people when those particular mental attributes must surely follow from conduct such as that pursued by the Fianna Fáil Party prior to the last general election, during the campaign and since? We are rebuked in very gentle language by Deputy Booth for trying, as he says, to destroy the national morale by reason of speeches such as those made by the Leader of the Opposition in reference to cynicism, disillusionment and indifference. Deputy Booth was not here prior to the General Election of 1957, but he could not fail to be aware of the conduct of the then. Opposition in this House during the tenure of the last Government whereby every act and every word on the part of the Fianna Fáil Party was directed towards destroying national morale, towards shaking public confidence and making it clear to the people that, in doing that, they were doing them a national service. The only service they did to the people was to gain their confidence to some extent and to get into power themselves.

In Volume 195 of the Dáil Debates, column 1903, the Taoiseach, then the Leader of the Opposition, is reported as having said this in relation to the then Government:—

"The doctrines they taught were quite the opposite and they got into power, in my opinion, by false pretences and it was false pretences that were the very beginning of original sin. It was false pretences that tempted poor Mother Eve at the start.

Mr. O'Leary: Captain Cowan and Dr. Browne.

Mr. de Valera: False promises— these were the basis and are the basis of the present Government. They have now had to play the part of the reformed rake in regard to these matters. Every single promise that they made on prices and all the rest of it—I could go through a long litany of them—bank restrictions, bank rates, etc.—they have proved false to and unable to carry out."

Then he adds, significantly I thought, words which must have been brought home to him in no very uncertain manner since he took office the last time:—

"How can people in the country rally around a Government of that sort? I do not think they can."

The Taoiseach in the course of the last general election campaign—and I do not think it can be said too often— made a specific promise to the people that the cost of living would be kept down in so far as the retention of food subsidies would keep it down. This promise was made obviously as a result of prior deliberation and consultation by the Deputy Leader of the Government, then Deputy Lemass. At Water-ford on the same night he said in relation to our charges that food subsidies would be removed on the accession of Fianna Fáil to power: "How definite must our denials of these stupid allegations be?" They did it and we have now, as the Leader of the Opposition said, had a full year in which to examine the effects of that.

I have been waiting anxiously and so, I am sure, has every Deputy not alone on the Opposition Benches but on the Government Benches, for some sort of plan or programme for the people of the congested areas of the northern, western and southern coasts. Permit me again to recall the famous promise of the successful candidate, now Deputy Doherty, speaking to the people on food subsidies when he said: "You can trust Mr. de Valera to do the right thing." The people of my constituency who are paying increased prices for flour, bread and butter, with nothing by way of compensation in their income, must now be amused and possibly hurt at Deputy Doherty's conception of the Taoiseach's doing the right thing. Absolutely nothing has been done in relation to the northern, western and southern coasts. Nothing was planned that was not in operation before. It is true that my successor, the Minister for the Gaeltacht, has engaged on some sort of business about pigs under the title of "Sceim na Muc" which is no great addition to the economy of the country. All of this was being effectively done——

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy may not discuss the details for which another Minister is responsible.

I am not discussing details. I am discussing Government policy and surely "Sceim na Muc" is Government policy.

Acting-Chairman

It is one of the many schemes operated under the Minister for the Gaeltacht.

One would expect the Chair not to be partial.

Acting-Chairman

Will the Deputy resume his seat? The Chair has ruled that the details for which the Minister for the Gaeltacht is responsible may not be discussed on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

The Chair has also said that Sceim na Muc is one of the many schemes——

Acting-Chairman

The Deputy may not criticise any statement made by the Chair.

Standards of criticism vary and the tests by which they are judged have an extraordinary sliding scale. Is there any improvement outlined in the Taoiseach's speech to-day attributable to any single aspect of what might be Government policy? I do not think so. On the introduction of the Estimate last year the Taoiseach, at column 821, Volume 163 of the Official Debates of the 4th July, 1957, said:—

"We hope the measures that will be taken will continue to have that result. There can be nothing spectacular about the results in the present year ..."

At no time to-day did we hear from him anything about the measures that he prophesied would be taken or the results they would continue to have. To-day's speech was nothing more than what the Minister for Health, then Deputy MacEntee, said in relation to Deputy Costello's speech two years ago when he used the words "stratagem", "sleight of hand" and other such words calculated to show disapproval.

This speech of the Taoiseach contained nothing by way of planning for the future. It contained no specific suggestion to deal with either unemployment or emigration. The Leader of the Opposition has already outlined what was described by the Tánaiste as the acid test whereby a Government should be judged and that acid test was how it dealt with the question of unemployment. It is true the unemployment figures are 1,700 fewer than last year. I do not think Deputies coming from country constituencies, particularly coastal constituencies, can shut their eyes to the fact that that 1,700 has been more than accounted for by emigration. On the occasion of the Budget of 1957, repeated this year with all its ferocity I prophesied that, in relation to my own constituency at any rate, all that it would mean would be that one more member of a family would have to emigrate or migrate and sooner than was anticipated. Speaking in that strain I challenge my colleagues in the Fianna Fáil Party to join in this debate and contradict me when I say that more people than ever before have either migrated or emigrated from the constituency of North Mayo to England, Scotland, America or other parts.

Deputy Booth said that the previous Government had entirely failed to deal with lawlessness on the part of illegal organisations. He knows perfectly well that is not true but he goes further and says that the action taken by the Government which he supports was taken because juries would be intimidated and judges would be thwarted. It is open to any Government, on the information they have, to take such measures as they deem fit, but speaking of the Government to which I had the honour to belong, I want to say we gave the courts a fair trial and they were working well. There was no indication of interference with justices or juries. The difference is the difference of method, but the difference implied in the Fianna Fáil method is that they would not allow the courts to operate, or allow juries to be intimidated, without having one solitary experience of that happening.

Credit is claimed on each side of the House from time to time for various things. Speaking as a country Deputy and recalling the times when calves were sold at 2/6 and 5/- each, while dropped-calves are now making between £20 and £30, one can get a true picture of the situation by looking at page 171 of the 1958 year book issued by the National Farmers' Association. That page is entitled: "At a glance; useful information for farmers.""Grants for erection of dwelling houses". They were there even before the State was founded and the principle of grants for dwelling houses was continued under the first Government, continued under Fianna Fáil, and continued by the inter-Party Government with greater vigour from 1948 to 1951, so that nobody can take any great credit for that. "Grants for reconstruction, improvement, or repair of dwelling houses"—the same remarks are applicable.

The next heading is: "Grants for Farm Buildings." Fianna Fáil were in power here from 1932 to 1948, an uninterrupted period, but they never thought of grants for farm buildings because these were started by the first inter-Party Government. The Taoiseach, who tells us to-day, and tells us truly, after years of bitter experience, great inconvenience and great national expense, that agriculture is the primary industry of the country, guided our destinies for 16 uninterrupted years. Agriculture is important to-day but during the whole of that period it was never important enough to have put into execution a plan for grants for land reclamation which was started by the first inter-Party Government in 1949. Neither did they think of the land project fertiliser scheme started by the inter-Party Government in 1950——

Surely that is agricultural administration?

This was Government policy.

Major Government policy may be discussed on the Taoiseach's Estimate but not departmental administration and this, surely, is departmental administration.

I submit, with respect, that schemes of the magnitude of grants for the installation of water supplies, fertiliser schemes, the T.B. eradication scheme, the accredited herd scheme, the soil advisory service, the contagious abortion scheme, and the parasitic diseases——

If we are to go into the administration of all Departments of State on the Taoiseach's Estimate there is no point in discussing the administration of the Departments individually at all. The only points that may be discussed are major aspects of Government policy, not administration of Departments.

I was about to submit that the covering of such a vast field by the first inter-Party Government and the utter neglect of it by the other Government over the previous 16 years is a matter of comment in relation to major Government policy.

It is not a matter for comment in relation to a major aspect of Government policy. If we were to adopt that course we would discuss all Departments of State on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

Agriculture had always been the cornerstone of Fine Gael policy. We always recognised that the ultimate prosperity of all our people in every walk of life depended in the last analysis on those who lived and worked on the land whether in big or small farms.

I should like to know from the Taoiseach, when replying, what are his plans for the people of the small holdings, the people he has blistered—in conjunction with his Government, of course—with the continuing effects of the 1952 Budget and the sorry present effects of the 1957 Budget? I see my colleague from North Mayo smiling. He must have sold a lot of suitcases this year to emigrants who had to go away to earn a living——

I think the personal activities of any Deputy should not be referred to in the House.

Seeing that they can be related to promise and performance——

The personal business of any Deputy should not be referred to in the House.

I am sorry. I really should not refer to it, because there is not any business, really.

The Deputy is only aggravating the offence by making remarks of that kind.

I want to know from the Taoiseach what he proposes to do regarding the provision of employment, provision of fishing facilities and amenities for those who live on the coast; what he proposes to do to alleviate the hardships caused to the people of whom I speak. People on fixed wage or salary scales have had their incomes stepped up a little in relation to the demands made on them, but the people for whom I speak have not had their income stepped up in any way. Even if cattle prices have increased they have so few cattle and the profit resulting from that increase is so negligible that it would not, and could not offset the hardships imposed by the removal of subsidies and increased taxation generally.

If there is no answer to that I am afraid we must accept as Fianna Fáil policy that their economy is the economy of the good land only, the economy of the economic holder, and that the sooner the hillsides, the valleys, the peninsulas and coastal villages are wiped out the better they will like it. We, on this side of the House, are prepared at all times to make constructive contributions but, when you find a situation whereby honest effort and honest endeavour, such as were displayed by the last Government in times of economic difficulty—now acknowledged by the Taoiseach and Tánaiste to be such times—and when you are faced with the vilest of campaigns, the strongest stalk will bend and probably break when struck by persistent blasts. That is what happened in this country in the latter days of 1956 and the beginning of 1957.

There was propaganda calculated to destroy national morale, calculated to turn men's minds away from honest endeavour, and to draw up the alluring horizon of "get cracking", of more employment, and the stemming of emigration. The people were led to believe by the present Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce that the cost of living would be kept within the limits of their capacity to pay. How can people be blamed if they are now to indulge in a period of disillusionment, cynicism and indifference when they find that when the objective, power, has been secured performance is of no consequence?

Democratic institutions in this and any other country must inevitably pay the penalty essentially resulting from such conduct. The Fianna Fáil Party will go down in the history of this country as the Party who made the best contribution—but which we hope will be foiled by the people—towards the destruction of the faith of the people, not alone in their country, but in those making honest endeavours to guide them along the road to national prosperity and national survival.

I was rather surprised at the Taoiseach's rather short, curtailed account of the working of his Department and of the Government in general during the last 12 months. He glossed over a lot of very important things very cursorily, and did not bother to go into detail. He did not seem to worry a lot about what are still our three major problems: emigration, the loss of our boys and girls; next in importance the huge figure of unemployment and last, but by no means least, the cost of living. These were not dealt with. Instead, the Taoiseach stressed that last year was a year of recovery. The only comment I wish to make on that is that the Taoiseach must be completely out of touch with the people of this country if he says last year was a year of recovery. Every single person to whom I speak, whether an ordinary working man, a small farmer, a shopkeeper or a businessman, says they have never had a more embarrassing or tighter year since the economic war. If that is the Taoiseach's idea of a year of recovery then we can only pray that we will not have many more such years of recovery.

Nothing has been done to try to stem emigration. It is all very fine to talk here and try to score politically over one's political opponents, but I wish to put forward a suggestion that might possibly help, if not altogether stop, the outflow of people from this country, and I want to give my reasons for making the suggestion. In the last 12 months it has not been the youth alone who emigrated. Whole families have gone. Whole families have locked the doors of, perhaps, brand new dwelling houses and cleared off to England, to the United States or to Canada, but mostly to England.

I hold that what is wrong is that the Government is not spending enough on employment. It is not for pleasure that people emigrate; it is to make a living. They are forced to emigrate when they cannot make a living at home and I do not know any of them who are going for pleasure. Some people go for holidays and come back again, but those who go for holidays are very, very few. On the cover of the Book of Estimates there is a sum of £110,002,220. I have just concluded examining various Votes under which money is provided for employment, and I find out of the total of £110,000,000 odd, a comparatively small sum, some £3,500,000. I think the Taoiseach should turn his attention to that and increase the amount of money spent on employment and on the ordinary working man.

We find that under Vote 10 there is roughly about £700,000 spent on rural improvement schemes and minor employment schemes which do very good work, even if they provide only part-time employment during the winter. In another Vote, £405,000 is provided for arterial drainage and, again, I believe there should be much more money spent on that. About £3,000,000 is provided for housing through the Department of Local Government, and I think it would not be unfair to say that, of that £3,000,000, only approximately a quarter is spent on labour. It is only fair to say that three-quarters of it is spent on materials and the figure left for employment is then about £750,000. The Land Commission spends £150,000 on employment, but forestry tops the list with about £1,500,000, and employs approximately 5,000 people. If the Taoiseach wants to seek a solution to emigration—and when I was a member of the Government that is what the then Government directed its attention to—he should try to give more employment at home because, if people could get employment at home, they would not emigrate.

There is no use beating around the bush, talking about emigration and the evil it is, until we get down to trying to stop it. What is wrong with government here is that it is costing £110,000,000 to run the country, on the face of the Book of Estimates, and only £3,500,000 is spent on employment. In the case of forestry, materials are mixed in with that figure, so that not even all that amount is being spent. Why then grumble about the youngsters leaving the country? It is quite evident that private employment cannot absorb them. The only way to check it is to try to give them employment at home. We have the most underdeveloped country in Western Europe to-day. If there is any money to be spent, we should spend it in giving them useful employment.

I shall not go into the details. I was very keen on forestry myself. Every single member of the Governments of which I was a member was very keen on forestry and pushed it ahead to the position it is in to-day. I was sorry to note that the number employed in forestry has dropped. I suppose the number dropped had to go across the water to get a living. We are spending a huge amount of money on various items but very little is being spent to provide employment for our young people at home. Then we tear our hair and shed tears over the fact that our youth are going. Private employment has absorbed as much as it can, but it is not enough. More money should be spent by the Government, especially in the rural areas where emigration is at its worst.

The cost of living has been spoken about so often—particularly when one remembers the promises made by Fianna Fáil before the last election— that I am loath to go over the same ground again. The present Government Party has the backing of a powerful propaganda sheet, the Irish Press. It is not a daily paper; it is a propaganda sheet for the Fianna Fáil Party.

On a point of order. Are we discussing the policy of the Irish Press or the Irish Press as a whole?

Deputies should confine themselves to the Taoiseach's Estimate.

All right, but we cannot overlook the facts of how they got back into power 15 or 16 months ago. I think we are justified in examining the means by which they got into power. Those means were, firstly, making promises they had no notion of fulfilling and, secondly, their backing by the Irish Press. I did not come in to attack the Irish Press. When we were in power and Deputy Dillon initiated the land rehabilitation project, side by side with the announcement of that was a series of gloomy disasters about floods and earthquakes in Japan in order to undermine the good of Deputy Dillon's programme.

The policy of any organ of the Press is not under discussion and does not arise relevantly.

Very good. However, I put it to the Chair that surely an instrument that had such a profound effect in undermining a Government in power and which, through false promises, put an Opposition back in power should be——

Is the Deputy entitled to attack the Irish Press in this House?

If an instrument such as the Irish Press is used by the Taoiseach to further his policy, I think you can talk about such an instrument.

I know nothing about the policy of any organ of the Press in the country, but I do know that the policy of any organ of the Press of the country does not fall relevantly for discussion on this Estimate.

Even when——

Deputy Blowick may say a particular organ of the Press is backing a particular Party, which may be the Government Party or not. That is a matter on which I cannot decide. But the Deputy should confine himself to what is in the Book of Estimates on the major policy of the Government.

Hear, hear!

Very good, I shall deal with the promises made. Several Deputies here to-day deprecated the fact that Government institutions are coming into disrepute. That is not due to the people outside taking a lackadaisical view of Government institutions, but it is due to our conduct here. Candidates going forward at general election time should not bid for votes with a bid they know they cannot honour, with a cheque that will bounce. A promise that cannot be fulfilled is a cheque that will bounce. The Government Party got into power on such false promises. One of them was the proposal of the present Minister for Industry and Commerce to find 20,000 new jobs for the boys and girls coming out of school each year. The cost was to be £100,000,000.

That is what is annoying you. We are finding the jobs every day.

Deputy Davern should not interrupt.

No, you are not. If the jobs were being found, even at a lot less than 20,000 per year, you would not have some 50,000 to 60,000 boys and girls leaving the country for want of employment.

There were 94,000 unemployed when the Deputy was in office.

I do not want to bring heat into this. I want to give my own views in the hope they will be of some help to the Government in solving the problems before them. I do not believe in introducing heat into a debate. Immediately it develops, one's judgment is warped.

I would not accuse the Deputy of that.

It certainly was wrong for the Government Party to lead the people astray. They definitely told the people that the food subsidies would not be removed and that the cost of living would not go up. The cost of living has gone up 11 points in the 13 months since they got into power. From 1954 to 1957, during the three years we were in office, the cost of living went up only two points. That was in the middle of a time when the Suez crisis definitely put us on the wrong foot. In spite of that, we succeeded in holding down the cost of living, with the exception of this slight rise of two points.

11 points.

Two points.

The Deputy should look it up. I shall not interrupt him again.

The cost of living has gone up 11 points since last May 12 months. That is where the 11 points come in. It was wrong to cheat the people into voting for them when they knew at the time that, not alone would they alter the food subsidies, but that they would go back on their promises and remove the subsidies. That is scandalous conduct on the part of public men. If these promises were made by a new Party, which suddenly emerged on the field, I would make every allowance for enthusiasm and inexperience. But to be made by a Party that was 16 or 17 years in office —more than that, I believe, at the time—was scandalous conduct and a scandalous betrayal of the confidence of the voters.

The Taoiseach dwelt on the fact that agricultural output has increased. It has increased and by much more than the 1 per cent. that the Taoiseach gave us. The Taoiseach is relying for his figures on the only yardstick by which agricultural output is measured in this country—the exportable surplus. No account is taken of how much of our produce is consumed by our own population. No account is taken of whether or not that increase has been brought about by lowering the standard of living of our people, by taking money out of people's pockets and preventing them from buying the produce of our farms.

When the Taoiseach says that the past year has been a year of recovery and that agricultural output has increased, does he think that people are now able to purchase goods to the same extent when the lb. of butter is 4/4 as compared with 2/8 in our time and when the sack of flour to-day is £3 9s. as compared with 33/- in our day? The sack of flour is common in the rural areas and the loaf does not figure so much there. Where does the Taoiseach think that the small farmer on a valuation of anything from, say, £6 to £50, if he is rearing a family, can get the money to pay the present price of a sack of flour a week, for example? It is no wonder that the exportable surplus has increased and that the balance of payments problem is coming right. It is—because our standard of living has been lowered and because the food we should eat is being exported. That is a very simple way of putting things right.

It is not as simple as that.

That is what is happening when people have not the money to buy the food and must go without it. That is the situation. The food is there but, as our people cannot afford to buy as much as they want of it, it is available for export. It helps to buy the luxury goods which we taxed when we were in office but, when Fianna Fáil resumed office, they removed those taxes. I stand over that act to-day just as I did then. I am proud of it. It was wrong that our small farmers and people generally throughout the country should have to work so hard to export just so that very costly luxury goods could be bought by the few people in the country who upset our balance of payments. They are the people who are doing it—not the small farmer, the businessman or the workman down the country.

The man who buys a few motor cars a year at over £1,000 apiece is the person who is upsetting our balance of payments. It is wrong that the people down the country should suffer in order that those other people can roll around in luxury. I am all for giving every man his due. I am strictly conservative on that question. However, we must have justice and fair play between man and man, particularly in times of crisis. A crisis arose in 1956-57 when every trick in the bag was used to embarrass us and to make the position of our Government as difficult as it could possibly be by the crowd who are at present in Government but who were then in Opposition.

There has been much talk about savings by the people. Questions are constantly being asked in that connection by various members of this Government and of the last Government. Where is the incentive to save to-day? Only the other day the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach told us that the value of the £ is now about 8/4 as against the value of the same £ in 1938. With money depreciating, where is the incentive to save? If it is put into a bank, into Government securities or into anything like that, it drops almost by a quarter or certainly by one-fifth inside a few years. The 4 per cent. National Loan is at present quoted at 84. Land Bonds are down in the very same way. There is no incentive to save. I want to put this question to the Taoiseach. Where is the incentive to work when there is no incentive to save?

Government spending has gone mad in some directions and has been tightened up and shrunken in the wrong directions, that is, where it would be giving employment. The Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach seem to be afraid to use money voted by this House to give employment. Our Government stood for increasing employment. We brought in the Local Authorities (Works) Act. We started arterial drainage. We increased forestry. We increased the work of the Land Commission. We increased the rural improvement schemes. We introduced the land rehabilitation project. We did all these things to develop the rural part of the country and to give employment there. Our efforts were crowned with a terrific measure of success.

Each time Fianna Fáil got back into office, first in 1951, after we had been three years there, they put a cold paralytic hand on everything we had done and froze it. For the first time since the Famine, the flight from the land had practically stopped during our first term of office. Fianna Fáil were back in office only one year when the flow of emigration started again. I should like to see the Government that would stop it now, after the way the people have been disillusioned. While that flight from the land goes on we cannot hope to have a prosperous country. There is no use in talking about it or in weeping about it, either here or outside. These people are going because there is no employment for them at home. Until we find employment for them, they will continue to go.

I do not see what Fianna Fáil have done—despite this particular organ to which we refer as an instrument— despite what they say to the contrary. I do not see what Fianna Fáil have done all down through the years or last year. I kept particularly quiet and silent for the past 12 months because, just this time last year, I remember, the Taoiseach was introducing his Estimate——

The Roscommon branch of your organisation——

Roscommon has to live just as well as Tipperary, and so has Mayo, Galway, Kerry and other parts of the West of Ireland. I hope Deputy Davern does not take the view of Deputy Corry that all the people in the West are a crowd of hen roosters. I wonder if Deputy Davern was in the House when Deputy Corry said that all the people in the West are hen roosters?

I have nothing but admiration for them.

Deputy Davern is constantly interrupting. Would he not make a contribution of his own?

He has not a contribution to make. What have Fianna Fáil got to show for the record? Even yet, I should like somebody to point out what they have done. I go up and down the country just as much as anybody. During the few short years when the inter-Party Government were in office, more development work took place of a new and absolutely necessary kind—the type I have just outlined—than ever before. Just consider arterial drainage, the Local Authorities (Works) Act and the land rehabilitation project. What have Fianna Fáil to show for their term in office?

As far as I can see, Fianna Fáil politics, backed by their organ, are merely to get into power and stay there and then do nothing. As far as I can see, that is Fianna Fáil policy. Coupled with that is the approach that any promise, any trick in the bag by which you can fool the voters, is good enough for the purpose of getting into power and keeping every other body out. That seems to be the policy. It does not matter how the country goes, what somersaults are being made or what promises were made at election time, once they are now in office. Every Fianna Fáil back-bencher went around the country saying that the food subsidies would not be reduced and yet each one of them followed their leader into the lobby to vote for the removal of the food subsidies. Every man who cooked up that lie walked obediently, just like a mouse, behind his leader to inflict that hardship on the poor people in our community. In that way, the price of butter was raised from 2/8 to 4/4 a lb. and the price of a sack of flour was raised from 33/- to £3 9s.

I am not saying all this for the purpose of political bitterness. I am saying it even at this late hour to try to put some little tinge of decency into the crookedness we have experienced. I have no other name for it. I do not know how I can describe it except as political crookedness.

I want to say in conclusion that if we wish to stop emigration the first thing we must do is to give employment at home. If the Taoiseach and his Ministers went over the Book of Estimates they could find savings to at least double the amount sufficient for the works that I have outlined.

Something should be done about the cost of living. At the present time homes that once were comfortable and in which they had meat every day except on a fast day are now lucky if they have it on Sundays. Despair is rife in the country and people say that there is not much good in having a change of Government because, they ask, what can be done after the destruction Fianna Fáil has wrought in five months. They say that it will take five years to undo it. That is the despair that has entered into the souls of the people. That is a nice record to have to expose in this House.

The Taoiseach described last year as a year of recovery. I hope it will be a long long time again before we have such a year of recovery as the one we have just had to endure.

Twelve months ago when speaking on this Estimate I stated that, should this Government succeed, credit would be due to one man only—the Taoiseach. We know the prominent part he played in relation to the election of the Government in the last election. Now we are taking stock and, unfortunately, we must see that events in the past 12 months have shown that things are going anyway but well. I recall during the last election reading statements by the Fianna Fáil Party that, to save the nation and its people, combined action, courage and foresight were required and that only Fianna Fáil could provide these.

Having heard the Taoiseach this morning, I was wondering what line of approach he would take in relation to the inaction of the past 12 months. Instead of giving us the action, courage and foresight that were promised we got a feast of statistics. We were told that if we studied the various books published we would understand the emigration situation, but we were not told anything about action, foresight or courage.

I notice that the Taoiseach kept very wide of the mark in relation to emigration. He stated that it would not be possible to give any accurate figures. It may not be for any member of his Government to give any figure which would embarrass the Government, but the irony of the situation is that while the Taoiseach tells us he could give no accurate figure, in the daily Press of 29th May, 1956, the present Minister for Finance, then Deputy Dr. Ryan, stated that we were faced with a desperate situation. He went further and said: "In the last two years 98,000 people emigrated, the greatest number since the Famine". He went on and said that almost 100,000 people were unemployed at the beginning of that year.

It is a pity that while, 12 months ago, the present Minister for Finance was able to be so accurate in relation to emigration, in spite of the various volumes of statistical abstracts which the Taoiseach advises us to read, he is unable to give us any accurate figure. Is it only when Fianna Fáil are in Opposition that they can give accurate figures?

Deputy Lemass, the present Tánaiste, a member of the Government whom we consider a man of outstanding ability in that Government, made a very strange statement some time back. He stated at the Fianna Fáil Árd-Fheis on 21st November, 1956, that the aims of the Fianna Fáil Party were unchanged and would remain unchanged. We are entitled to ask at this particular time whether it is correct for any member of the Government to say that the aims of the Government have any relationship whatever to the early policy of that Government.

We in the Labour Party consider that the tragedy of it is that, perhaps without knowing it, the policy of the present Government has been changed completely into a policy of a deeply conservative nature. The members of the Government seem to be satisfied to drift in that direction while the Tánaiste states that it is the same policy as it was in the past and that it will remain unchanged.

When the Taoiseach was speaking to-day he advised us to be more studious in relation to the reports given to us and among the volumes he mentioned was the report of the Central Bank. It is only a few months ago since I read in the Cork Examiner of 21st April, 1958, a heading in relation to the Central Bank report which read: “1958 Prosperous but Precarious”. We are told, even in 1958, that we must study these reports and according to the Taoiseach we should accept them. Apparently, we should accept the Central Bank as being the guardians of the finances of this country. That is a very strange thing when we realise that the present Tánaiste, when in Opposition, made it quite clear that he did not agree with the various reports of the Central Bank.

The present Minister for Lands, if he speaks in this debate, may go further than the Taoiseach and explain these reports to us, but let the Minister understand that where we differ from him, and where we agree with the present Tánaiste, is that we believe in a progressive line of thought in relation to matters in this country as against the conservative view expressed by the Central Bank, the view which the Taoiseach tells us we should read and accept as the policy which is the only hope of salvation for this country.

Another report which the Taoiseach has apparently taken deeply to heart and which every member of the present Government seems to have not only studied but swallowed hook, line and sinker, is the report of the Capital Advisory Committee in relation to the withdrawal of food subsidies in this country. It is true to say that that report was presented to the outgoing Government. It is equally true that the various Parties, in particular the Labour Party, supporting that Government had no intention whatsoever of accepting and putting into operation a policy which has proved within the last 12 months to be so detrimental to the economic and financial welfare of the people.

I do not mind whether the Taoiseach and his Minister made statements in relation to not removing the food subsidies but the fact that they have accepted a report of a committee which in itself advised the complete withdrawal of those food subsidies proves again the conservative line of approach of the Government in their general policy. I would not mind if that were the policy of a Government which from its very inception had a conservative policy but we know that from its early years that Government through its leadership put into operation a policy more in harmony with the teaching of Pearse, Connolly, and so on, a policy which had the support of the Labour Party. The members of this Government may ask themselves why it is that Labour are continuously opposed to their present policy. The answer is easily found by examining the political conscience of a Party that has changed so much in all these years.

It is right and proper on an occasion like this, particularly when we have reason to be disappointed with the introductory speech of the Taoiseach to-day, to draw attention to other factors in the Fianna Fáil policy but which are spoken of only when they are in Opposition. I have before me a publication which is not one of our daily papers or a weekly paper. It is a document issued for the electors of Cork City in relation to a by-election concerning a member of this House whom I deeply respect. What the name of the paper is I do not know but its main heading is: "Facts for Voters." Speaking for the Fianna Fáil Party they say: "We are working out the details of a dynamic programme of investment which in an expanding economy will bring the nation to that goal." They went further and said: "We are eagerly awaiting the opportunity of putting that programme before the people at the next general election." They did put that programme before the people and were elected to office.

I do not mind whether the people made a mistake or not. When the programme was put before them they apparently thought it was a good programme. I am entitled to ask now after 12 months: What if any part of that programme has been put into operation? Where is that dynamic programme of investment? We have been told not alone by the Taoiseach but by Ministers of his Cabinet that we must accept the hard economic conditions of the present time owing to financial restrictions.

We were faced with a tragic situation at the end of 1956 when a policy was introduced with which many of us could not agree, a policy of restriction which meant impositions directly on the people. People may ask why did we support that Government? Our answer is a simple, clearcut one: Where could we turn? Could we turn to the Fianna Fáil Party who for years had been so stringent in relation to the provisions of the necessary moneys for old age pensions, widows' and orphans' pensions and other social necessities? Time proves everything. It may prove the fallacy of many of the restrictions at the end of 1956 but the Fianna Fáil Party were the Party who told the people, through the Taoiseach and his Ministers, that that was not their policy, that they believed in a dynamic investment programme. We have not seen any of that yet.

This same paper displays a huge heading and tells the people of Cork City that all that was needed to solve our difficulties was right leadership. According to the Government and their supporters we have had that leadership for the last year but we are still in the doldrums. As the Minister for Lands, who is acting for the Taoiseach now, knows—and he is a man who believes in dealing with statistics as cold hard facts—even with the so-called right leadership unemployment is at a worse figure to-day than it was in 1956. If they wish to use for their own benefit the end of 1956 and the beginning of 1957, it is true that the figures may help them but let them compare the figures for this year as against 1956 and even with the dynamic investment policy and right leadership, we are still worse off.

At the by-election in Cork, according to the Fianna Fáil propaganda, prices had gone up. What has happened since? I will admit that if prices do go up, if the economic situation is such that wages can go up accordingly, then such a situation may continue even though it may not be the best in the world. However, we have seen that within the last 12 months although prices have gone up, wages have not gone up accordingly. We know the mistake made by this Government in relation to State and other employees during the last six or eight months when the Government went so far as to say that those people were not entitled to and would not get a wage or a salary increase. But they saved the situation when they realised they had gone too far.

The Taoiseach gave us no indication to-day as to what Government policy is in relation to emigration. In fairness to the Taoiseach, I will say that like all other members of the House he regrets emigration, but that is not sufficient. Least of all is it sufficient when the Taoiseach just mentions it here and is not in a position to offer any genuine solution for even an easement of that situation.

I know the Ministers may say there was emigration before their time. There was, and unfortunately, the tragedy is that nobody knows a year when there was no emigration, but one must consider that in relation to the huge heading on this leaflet: "Fianna Fáil plans to end emigration." That was given to the people of Cork City when asking their support. It also said: "Fianna Fáil plans to increase over five years the number of new jobs by 100,000." That meant there would be 20,000 extra in employment each year. This is not a quotation from a daily newspaper: it is from election literature issued by the Party now holding power. The Taoiseach to-day recommended us to study statistics. When we do, we find that, compared with the situation this time two years ago, instead of an increase of 20,000 in employment, there are now more people drawing unemployment benefit or assistance than in 1956.

It is easy to draw attention to many of these things but, as Deputy Blowick asked, will it get us anywhere? It must be admitted inside and outside this House that the word of the Taoiseach counts more in this country than the expressions of many of us put together. Where has that led us? Members of the present Government condemned the previous Government for 50 broken promises, a list of everything that went up in price. I would like to hear the Minister for Lands defend the Taoiseach in regard to 50 or more broken promises. Have they been mended since? Has the present Government relieved the situation, relieved unemployment or reduced emigration?

In the Cork by-election Fianna Fáil secured support when they stated that private housing was almost at a standstill. Where is it to-day, and what has happened for the past 12 months? Surely it is no better. To frighten people who might be inclined to vote against the Fianna Fáil nominee they said that worse was yet to come. They pointed out the terrible calamity of the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts position, but what applied then to that position applies to-day. Statistics may show there are more applications now but the real answer is not found in statistical reviews which we are told to study. It can be found in one single sheet of paper supplied every so often to every member of the House giving the number of people without employment. That is the answer, and it is a condemnation of the lack of policy on the part of the present Government.

I shall finish by drawing attention to the outstanding statement—in my opinion—of the propagandists of the Fianna Fáil Party at that time. They said: "The Coalition Government have not even recognised that a dangerous unemployment problem exists." It went on to say: "How many more thousands of workers are going to lose their jobs before the Coalition agrees to stop playing at politics and get down to work?" Who has realised the situation in the past 12 months? The people of the country have got the right leadership; the Party that was dynamic in every way forms the Government; the Taoiseach is supported by able Ministers and yet they have not realised the tragedy of unemployment.

We were condemned for supporting the previous Government but we can say openly that we fought hard, as good men will, to put into operation a policy which might give better results. If that Government failed over six months, it can be said that prior to that six months, that policy and the Government supported by the Labour Party, brought unemployment down to a lower figure than Fianna Fáil ever achieved.

Even under the "right leadership" we now have, tragic statements may be made here, not only by the Taoiseach but by his Ministers. I have no intention of being personal but over the last few months we have all heard Ministers replying to questions and making statements that officials of local authorities, even if they fail to attend to their duty, are entitled to do so if they have a national record. That was stated by the Minister for Health, under the jurisdiction of the Taoiseach, like many other statements——

That does not arise on this Vote.

Except that the policy of this Government shows more contempt for the Constitution put into operation by the present Government than the actions of any individual in any part of the country. The policy now in operation is not the policy of the Government when it was in Opposition. Fianna Fáil then made it clear to the people that they had a dynamic programme. Who can blame us for being critical in our discussion on such an important subject as the Taoiseach's Estimate?

I appreciate that the debate must end to-night and that many members are entitled to speak. Had we unlimited time I might do otherwise but because time is limited I shall finish as I began by saying that Fianna Fáil asked for overall support from the people and they said that the Taoiseach could give the right leadership. The people accepted the promises and gave their support but now, 12 months or more since the introduction of that policy, the people are still in the tragic situation of having to meet higher prices due to the removal of the subsidies. They suffer a higher emigration rate. They must be satisfied to see more people going to unemployment exchanges for benefits which it would not be necessary to pay if the Party's "dynamic policy" to provide an extra 20,000 jobs a year had been put into effect. That is not the situation and the Taoiseach, and the policy of his Government must, therefore, be condemned for inactivity and failure to implement their own promises.

I want to deal again with the charge made by the Opposition that the general election was fought on our side with lavish and fulsome promises that we would put the economic situation right overnight, that we would provide people with 20,000 jobs overnight, that we would be able to give large scale, tremendous employment overnight and that we would be able to effect any improvement in an immediate short period. I travelled around the country during the general election speaking a great deal. I never heard, during the course of the general election, excessive promises made that there would be a specific performance within a very short period, that the country's difficulties could be put right in a very short period. I have read through the whole of the speeches made by Ministers, as reported in the Press during the general election, a few weeks ago in order to see whether I was deluding myself, and to see if those allegations had any foundations. Having read through the speeches I find the election was conducted in a most tremendously realistic atmosphere. On a very great number of occasions Ministers, including myself, made it clear that the way would not be easy, that a quick success could not be achieved, that the difficulties we had to face were mounting for a period of ten years.

Even in connection with the blueprint, the study of our economic future, that was prepared by Fianna Fáil, the most careful steps were taken to publish, in October, 1956, an addendum to that blueprint which sought to indicate the manner in which we could advance as a nation, the manner in which we could secure full employment. In the addendum it was made absolutely clear that the financial conditions had so far deteriorated that any statements made in the first statement, apart from their being a study of what we might achieve, should be regarded in a most conservative light. It was pointed out that the balance of payments position was so serious that the statements of the capital required would have to be examined in the light of the balance of payments circumstances in which we would find ourselves when we would achieve office. The addendum showed that we were careful to indicate that the programme in the blueprint would have to be closely scrutinised in the light of the balance of payments circumstances as we would find them.

I hope, anyway, that my word will be taken for it that, during the course of my travels and perambulations around the country, I never heard any wild or excessive promises being made by my colleagues at that time. The general election leaflet, the main leaflet published, equally contained no wild promises that there would be an immediate and tremendous increase in employment and prosperity. The reason we did not make these promises was this: we were fully aware that we were facing a change in our circumstances, one that might be of a permanent kind. We realised we had come to the end of an era during which successive adverse balances of payments had resulted in incurring foreign debt and in liquidating our resources to the value of £200,000,000. That expenditure gave the appearance of prosperity. The spending of that money, the incurring of that debt, and the liquidation of our resources at that time had the effect of stimulating a considerable amount of employment, employment not of a permanent char acter, but employment which must be replaced by permanent employment derived from productive services.

I do not think yet that many people in the country have fully understood the change in the position which has taken place and which, I am glad to say, was admitted to a considerable degree by the former Minister for Finance. If we discharged savings and incurred debts to the value of £200,000,000 from the end of the war, this is equivalent to some £37 being spent each year in every household in the country for ten long years, extra, additional spending power with all the employment capacity that that means. Once we reach the end of that era and when, by the admission of all concerned, the immediate external reserves for capital purposes have reached their lowest figure, not only do we have to make up for the loss in purchasing power occasioned by the ending of that era and that way of economic life—we have to make up for that first, we have to restore that purchasing power before we engage ourselves in the work of increasing production and giving employment.

As far as I know there is not much controversy on this subject. We do claim the Coalition Parties gave too much encouragement to the idea of liquidating these savings and spending our assets and, whatever certain members of their Parties said about it, others took their words in vain and encouraged people to adopt the idea that people were entitled to a good living, that external assets could be freely spent without danger to the community. We have had to face that particular difficulty first of all. Secondly, we have faced another problem that no matter what we do about it and, no matter what money we could make available, the housing programme of local authorities is steadily and slowly coming to an end.

That programme provided a large source of employment in different ways, in the manufacture of house building materials and in the building of the houses themselves. As has been seen from the recent Housing Bill we have taken what seems to us to be wise steps to carry out certain housing activities, that seem valuable from the point view of preserving the capital value of the houses we have available, and from the point of view of filling in certain gaps that exist in the housing programme. There is no good pretending that we have not got a major problem in the slackening of employment due to the completion of the great panoply of housing carried out in a short ten years. To-day we have to provide substitute employment, and substitute capacity to make up for a great deal of that. As I have said, a great part of the housing programme has been completed and, in counties like my own, something like 90 per cent. is completed.

There naturally is disillusionment when the country has to live off current savings having been accustomed to live off war savings. There is an atmosphere of shock. Other countries in Europe have faced the same difficulty. We cannot stimulate recoveries by waving a wand, and so establish within 12 months sufficient new production to make up for the change of circumstances we have had to face. A number of Deputies have already suggested we could give all the employment we wanted by increasing our expenditure on non-productive services. Everybody knows what the results would be. It would be possible to print money and carry out a series of enormous, expensive road building programmes, but at the end of a certain period the only result would be an increase of imports as a result of inflated purchasing power, and we would be back again in the same position we were in in 1951 and 1955. As we made perfectly clear in the second blueprint we published in October, 1956, in view of the financial situation as we saw it, and in view of the burden of debt, we would have to secure some notable increase in production before we could then proceed to spend sums very much larger than those available on public works in order to ensure that our exports would pay for the imports that would inevitably mount up the moment public expenditure was increased on non-productive services.

I might add that there has been a certain amount of misunderstanding about the employment-giving value of non-productive services which, I think, is becoming apparent to us now. People seem to imagine that if you employ people on housing no disemployment results in other fields. Everybody knows that, over the period of ten or 20 years during which the debt on housing loans is amortised, the people are paying for the debt. Their purchasing power is being diminished by the amortisation of the debt. If you build houses, you have to do without other things in order to build the houses—not over a period of one or two years but over a period of ten or 20 years.

In order to build houses, the public who pay the taxes for the building of houses have got to do without other things. They have got to spend less money on the products of Irish factories other than those providing housing materials. If you have production springing up, the increased production can take care of the whole work of building houses, roads and all the other non-productive amenity works. The whole of the economy can swim along in fine fashion. Unless you have a sufficient increase in production, the building of houses deprives someone else of spending money on the products of Irish factories, money being diverted, for social reasons and for the consideration of the community, to the building of houses.

I mention that because, reading the speeches of people around the country, some people seem to think that non-productive expenditure simply results in a net increase in employment, as you find that expenditure is being canalised into a particular and valuable social service. It does not mean that there is any large net increase in employment as indicated by the figure for those employed in housing.

There have been a number of references to increases in the cost of living that have taken place during Fianna Fáil's period of office. We might just as well give the figures correctly. I may have misunderstood some of the speakers on the opposite side, but in actual fact the cost of living went up from February, 1948 to May, 1951 by ten points. It went up from May, 1951 to May, 1954 by 15 points. It went up from 1954, the nearest period to the general election, to the period in 1957 by 11 points; and it has gone up from 1957 to now by 11 points. It would appear that both Governments were responsible for increases in the cost of living.

I might add that we have also had a great deal of nonsense on that subject. If the figures for the increases in the cost of living in the sterling area and a very large part of the European area are examined, it will be found that there has been in a great number of countries an increase in the cost of living corresponding to that here. It is always easy enough to talk about increases in the cost of living when it is realised that that part of the increase in the cost of living which is attributable to us was due to the necessity of dealing with unbalanced Budgets. If Budgets are not balanced, the only result is further inflation; and the cost of living will go up through inflation if it does not go up through the reduction of subsidies.

I might also add that there are some encouraging features in relation to the increase in the cost of living for which we can be thankful. In a recent period—I am not quite sure of the present figure—but up to a very recent period, it could be said that industrial earnings have gone up slightly more than the increase in the cost of living.

So has unemployment.

That shows that there have been certain compensations. I thought I would deal with the cost of living because it seems to me that we had better get the facts straight. Both Governments have been responsible to some extent for living cost increases, in so far as their economic policies could affect the cost of living. The major reason for the increase in the cost of living has been the increase in the cost of imported materials and increases in the cost of food here, resulting from the export prices attracting higher prices for the food consumed at home.

I wanted to mention those facts because they seem to me to be important. A lot of Deputies talk as though the Government had sat still and done nothing since they achieved office. The first thing we had to do was to find capital for some of the public services, where capital had virtually dried up. I need not go into detail about that. Everybody knows that the money was found to continue housing, to continue road building and other services. We managed to find capital under difficult circumstances in the last financial year for the public services, and the Government were able to continue essential work because of the confidence expressed by the investing public in them.

Then we found that a great deal of what I would call a dynamic programme consisted in a multitude of changes of a complex character in our arrangements for encouraging industrial production. Again, when we debate in this House, we have got to realise that a great many of the easy jobs have been completed. And most of them were carried out by Fianna Fáil. The easiest way of starting industries is to give industrial protection and establish tariffs. When you have done that, it is done, and the industries start to grow. When you have to expand production in a period where competitive conditions exist, when the war boom is over, you have to study the needs in far more detail.

A great many of the things done by the Government in the last 12 months are not spectacular things. Nevertheless, they are important. Nevertheless, they have a dynamic effect so long as the people of this country have confidence in themselves and so long as we can attract other people to what we believe are attractive conditions here upon which to base industrial promotion. For example, we have increased the tax concessions for export. We made greater allowances in respect of plant and machinery. We have overhauled the Industrial Credit Corporation and made it possible to get more finance from that organisation. We have given further facilities to Córas Tráchtála Teoranta.

We had to alter the import levies, abolish a great many, reduce others, substitute others by permanent import taxes, and that, in itself, had a considerable effect on a number of industries, enabled production to increase and further employment to be given. We amended the Control of Manufactures Act in order to encourage foreign capital to come in here. We made connections with a number of international organisations and financial organisations abroad with a view to interesting them in capital projects. We made increased provision for capital grants to industry. We have given more money to the Tourist Board. We are trying to establish Shannon Airport as a centre for new industry. All these matters require careful consideration. None of them is spectacular. However, if there is confidence amongst our own people, if there is ambition amongst our own people and if people coming from abroad see this country as one in which costs are being kept reasonably low and in which they can establish production at lower costs than in their own factories we will, not immediately but in the future, see much greater industrial production.

I have mentioned just some of the Government's activities in the past 12 months. I might add that these changes cannot be effected overnight. All of us who have had experience as Ministers know that it takes time to develop new policies. We know it is impossible to do anything complex such as altering tax concessions overnight. It takes time and study. A great many of the things we shall have to do in the future will take time and study.

We have appointed an agricultural marketing committee consisting of the best experts we can find to deal with the appalling problem of the pig and bacon trade, to see how far they can make proposals to us whereby we can have a higher share of the British market than some £4.9 million out of a total of £86,000,000 a year. That problem is best investigated by experts. I hope their reports will be useful. I can see tremendous difficulties in the way but, nevertheless, the establishment of an agricultural marketing committee should, I think, bring good in the future.

There were complaints in regard to the Budget. I should have thought people had had enough. I should have thought that, after the previous Budget and after the special Budgets put into operation by the Coalition Government, people would be content for the moment with a standstill Budget in the hope that we might be able to make some improvement in the future.

A great many other policies are being examined in the Departments. Just to give one example of the difficulties involved in a simple change of policy I will point out that if you double the grants for private forestry you have to make quite sure that sufficient seedlings are available for the trees. Then you have to establish quite an elaborate organisation for reaching the farmers themselves—an organisation which can meet Macra na Feirme, the National Farmers Association, Muintir na Tíre and other organisations, to give them in a practical form the economic results of private forestry and technical advice. This kind of policy cannot be carried out overnight.

There is no good in my promising that I can get many thousands of acres of trees planted by farmers privately within 12 months. It may take several years to establish the conscious feeling that private afforestation brings benefits. The same applies to the fishery industry. There is a matter on which it is absolutely impossible to make speedy progress because any progress must relate not only to an increase in internal consumption but to an increase in export trade. Unless the two of them proceed together, the inevitable result will be a slump in fish prices and difficulties experienced by inshore fishermen.

We have made a real effort in the past 12 months in that regard. I mention it as one of the many special problems facing the Government. I am glad to be able to tell the House that there are more projects for canneries and curing stations around our coasts than ever before in the history of our Department of Fisheries. I do not intend to speak of or mention any of them until I see the foundation stones laid. However, I can say in respect of some of them at least that, unless some disaster takes place, they will mature. There are difficulties arising there. Fishermen and processors want to export to Great Britain. They said the freight rates were too high. It may seem a very little thing to have to negotiate with various organisations to establish a bulk lower freight rate from Irish ports to London. The work is not even yet completed. I should like to be able to say in respect of the whole of the reduced freight rates for fishery purposes that all the negotiations have been completed, but work of that kind is not done within any 12 months. It requires long and patient negotiation.

We are looking forward to increasing our fishing potential. All the advice I have received has suggested to me that at least from now on fishermen should be trained technically in navigational techniques. We started a small training school for fishermen. Not very many applied. We have to establish consciousness of the possibility of fishery development. It cannot be done in 12 months. It will take some time.

Details in relation to fisheries scarcely arise on the Taoiseach's Estimate.

A lot of cod is coming in there.

A great deal of the work the Government does is highly technical. It is divided into many detailed actions and policies and it takes time to mature.

Deputy Briscoe told us that in the States before.

Deputy Coogan must cease interrupting.

In the course of this debate, I heard the statement made that the whole of the improvement in agricultural production that had taken place was due to the Coalition Government. We have had that statement many times. I am afraid we shall have once more to contradict the statement.

Sure, the Minister never killed a calf?

Without wanting to detract from the work of any Government, it is just as well to make clear the agricultural policies for which this Government was responsible. Some Deputies like to take credit for what were Fianna Fáil decisions. We were responsible for the decision to encourage tillage by guaranteed prices. We were responsible for the expansion of the beet sugar factories.

You called them "white elephants".

The Chair will have to take action if Deputy Coogan does not stop interrupting.

We started the first land reclamation scheme. I have publicly accorded credit to Deputy Dillon for having mechanised and extended the land reclamation scheme but a great deal of valuable and useful work was done under the Fianna Fáil reclamation scheme which started in 1939. Valuable and useful work was done by small farmers throughout the country under that scheme.

I heard somebody speak of arterial drainage as the work of the Coalition Government. If I remember rightly, the Arterial Drainage Act was passed in 1945. I think the former Taoiseach, Deputy J.A. Costello, when blowing the whistle announcing the initiation of the Brosna Scheme, was generous enough to say that a great deal of the planning had taken place under the previous Government.

The farm buildings grants arrangements were left on the desk of the Minister for Agriculture in 1948 and were prepared by the previous Government. The first artificial insemination station started under the Fianna Fáil Government. The first scheme for extending the agricultural advisory services was started by Fianna Fáil and we planned and extended the number of agricultural advisers under the programme of increased agricultural instruction. The first prototype ground limestone scheme was ready in 1947.

We also heard much talk about the volume of agricultural produce produced in 1947 compared with a later date. If we are to compare volumes of production it is as well to compare them over a number of comparative years and not to take one particular year in which, owing to unprecedented inclement weather, the volume of production had dropped extremely low. There is the habit of comparing the volume of production in 1951 or 1958 with that in 1947 in order to give the impression that 1947 is the only base year that can be taken. Most international organisations seem to have a habit of taking 1939, 1949 and 1953 as their base years and they make use of them for general economic considerations. So far as our work for agriculture at the present time is concerned, the Department of Agriculture relief of agricultural rates statistics show an increase of 40 per cent. over the expenditure for 1954-55.

I want to deal with some of the issues which face us. So far as I can see, in the future all the work of increasing production will be non-spectacular. Little of what we do will excite flaring headlines in the newspapers. It will be patient work in which the will and the ambitions of the community will be deeply involved. The development of many economic assets is under way. Power development is reaching the end of its first phase. Rural electrification, again started by Fianna Fáil, will be completed, at least in its first phase, in four or five years. The work of increasing production which lies ahead of us involves much technical investigation and work on marketing devices, market research and organisation. This is not dramatic work but work which is essential. I believe that this Government will achieve very useful results in the next year or two.

The Minister for Lands has gone to great trouble and made a valiant effort to assure the House that his Party made no promises of employment prior to or during the last general election. The whole tone of his speech was that he went up and down the country and read all the Ministers' speeches and at no time did they promise that they would do anything about employment. That is a direct repudiation of the Deputy Prime Ministers' speech at Thomas Street on 22nd February, 1957, in which he said that Fianna Fáil had decided on works for which financial control must be taken by the Government in order to give employment. There was also an advertisement which was headed: "How to put your men and machines to work", and that was followed by a statement that the country needed a Government the members of which had thought out the problems and who were offering themselves as the men who would do the work that was to be done.

In the face of that advertisement by Fianna Fáil the Minister for Lands gets up blandly and tells us that they made no promises and that they could not do so. He told us all that Fianna Fáil and the Government had done for agriculture but he forgot to mention that in 1956-57 Deputy Childers, as he then was, in my own constituency, told the farmers of Longford-Westmeath that the bottom had dropped out of the cattle market and that the people could no longer expect to have a substantial cattle trade in the country. There were people foolish enough to ignore the advice of the Minister for Agriculture, then Deputy Dillon, and myself, who told them to hold their cattle and that the price would rise. They believed Deputy Childers and sold their cattle but they do not think too much of him ever since. Of course, he was only following in the footsteps of his leader, who, years before, declared that the cattle market was gone and gone forever.

Anybody who spoke for agriculture, as Deputy T. Lynch has spoken, or who spoke for the farmer was a rancher. He was an imperialist who had only one ambition and that was to feed John Bull. That was most unpatriotic. Deputy Booth told us here this evening that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are very welcome in Northern Ireland. That is something I have believed for a very long time. I believe that it is true because there is no Party in this State has done as much to preserve Partition as that Government and that Party. So long as they are able to keep up that situation they will be very welcome in Northern Ireland because these fellows in the Government posts up there will then be always secure.

I think it would be a very wise thing indeed if some of the old campaigners of the Fianna Fáil Party told the youth of the country to-day what exactly brought about Partition.

Surely, we cannot discuss that on the Estimate.

We can, Sir. It is a matter of major Government policy at the moment that Partition is an issue in this country. While it is true that the Taoiseach to-day did not specify any plan to end it, he did say that there were such matters as education and Partition with which he would like to deal. That will be his alibi when he is replying to this Estimate. He will tell us then what we should have said in this debate and what advice we should have given him.

I propose to give this advice to the youth of the country who are wrongly and without full knowledge of what they are doing, making Partition more permanent by the use of physical force. They should be told by some members of the Front Bench of the present Government and some members of this bench what brought about Partition in 1922 and that if to-day the head of the Government went to Belfast or if the head of the Northern Government came down to Dublin and if either of them could get the Craig-Collins pact of 1922, they would be hailed as the saviours of the country.

What happened 35 years ago is not relevant on the Estimate. It would widen the discussion considerably.

I bow to your judgment but I submit that one of the two main reasons this Government got into office was that we were not dealing effectively with the people who were raiding across the Border. We took the constitutional line and allowed the ordinary courts set up under the Constitution to deal with them. We were told that we had not the strength of a Government that would be a one-Party Government, that because we were of various sections we were weak.

In the doing of that they have done something that has unsettled the minds of the people. When they came into office they opened the internment camp and they sought to justify that by saying that the courts had failed to do their duty. The fact is and was that the courts were functioning legitimately and well and that there was no intimidation. Intimidation might arise but a Government would certainly have resources enough to deal with that if and when it did. My contention is that the youth of the country do not know the facts and that there was a responsibility on the Minister for External Affairs to tell them to-day what the facts were and what the results of physical force were in the past.

The other reason this Government got into office was that we were supposed to be spending too much. The Minister for Lands, then Deputy Childers, went up and down the country declaring that the inter-Party Government had nothing but slush money, that our external assets were being wasted and that our external assets were a standing army of occupation for us in Britain. He said that it was imperative to retain our standing army of occupation in England in the form of external assets. Of course he forgot that in doing that we would be sending an army of occupation through emigration to follow the external assets.

We have the Taoiseach, however, very properly telling us to-day that he is not disturbed about our external assets. The Minister for Lands is. The Taoiseach told us to-day that our external assets were not threatened and that the Government did not propose to rebuild them. What are we to accept as Government policy on that point? Is it the Taoiseach's view—I think it is —or that of the Minister for Lands? We were charged with speaking with different voices, that we were a disunited Government but here on a fundamental issue is a divided counsel in that Front Bench and we are entitled to ask who is stating Government policy.

And the Taoiseach laughs heartily at the very inquiry.

I am laughing heartily at the mess of reasoning to which I am listening.

There are two voices, but it has ever been that way with Fianna Fáil. The Taoiseach can say one thing here, a Minister of State can say another, and the back benchers can say something different down the country, whatever suits. Deputy Desmond said to-day that Fianna Fáil announced that there was no change in the objects and aims of Fianna Fáil from 1932 to the present day. Of course that is true. Their aim in 1932 was to hoodwink the people and they did it with the poster: "More employment, more money for everybody, and why should it ever stop?" If I am challenged on that I can produce the poster.

At that stage people in the benches which Deputy Desmond now occupies, voted for Fianna Fáil because they believed them. Labour then were the white-haired boys because they were following Fianna Fáil. Worse than that, my colleague here, Deputy James Dillon, voted for them and voted for the election of the Taoiseach, Deputy de Valera, as President of that Government in 1932.

The Deputy is going back rather a long way.

Only to this extent, that during this debate and during this session, Deputy Dillon has been held up as unpatriotic, un-Irish and having no merit whatever.

The Deputy is confirming the story by revealing what I did.

I am trying to prove that the Deputy had a great deal to live down, and he did it, but he is in the same boat as I am myself, and also General Mulcahy, the two generals to whom a Minister did not like to talk. We did the same thing and we are trying to live it down ever since.

He is taking us for a ride in our time.

There is no change in the aims and objects of Fianna Fáil. The only difference is that those of us on this side of the House have found it out long ago. When you follow Fianna Fáil, the moment you become a nominee of Fianna Fáil, even if you get into the Agricultural Credit Corporation, every virtue is given to you. You become a patriot, you have a record and you are one of the brainiest people in the country when you take out a membership card of Fianna Fáil. It is time that should stop. Deputy Costello as Taoiseach in this House appealed for co-operation from every side to end the problems and the difficulties that confront the country. It was a proper appeal to make but it was not well received. Nevertheless, I do suggest that if the lawful, legitimate Government of this country now occupying the benches over there ask for our support and co-operation to meet the difficulties, they must get it. They will get it so far as is humanly possible. I am glad that, even at this late stage, after 35 years, when the Taoiseach went down to Ennis, whatever question was raised, he declared that in a democracy an Opposition had a very great service to render to the nation and that the people rendering that service were doing great work. But it took him 35 years to find that out and to admit it. It was a very costly education. Yet we are grateful for small mercies and I am glad that to-day we heard the Minister for Lands trying to prove that the measures which will be effective and valuable in the coming year are the very measures that the inter-Party Government and Deputy Dillon put into effect in regard to agriculture.

Our industries, while valuable in themselves, are only what Griffith and every Irishman said they would be, a part of the economy of the country in which agriculture would be of primary importance. That has now been discovered by Fianna Fáil and I would suggest that in putting that policy into effect they should keep in mind the advice and the headlines that the former Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dillon, left them.

It is true—and no statement by the Minister for Lands will get over it— that the Fianna Fáil Government got into office on the grounds that they would end unemployment. They had a £100,000,000 plan. Deputy Desmond has spoken of it, but everyone knows of it.

That was to put 20,000 people into employment each year. All the people had to do was to vote for the Government, the Party united among themselves, and then they would have a strong Government that would realise the ideal of full employment.

Another point was the ending of emigration. The Taoiseach wept at the vast number emigrating daily and he declared he had practically the exact figures. Now, he cannot tell us what the exact figures are, although he has all the facilities of the Statistics Office to get them for him. Now he can only get them at the end of the five-year census period. How could he be so positive in opposition and so unreliable in Government? That should not be; he should have more information as Taoiseach than as Leader of the Opposition.

Fianna Fáil has a very serious responsibility as a Government. If they fail, the responsibility of a Party such as we are becomes heavier but we have never shirked responsibility. If and when the people fully understand our policy and programme—as I believe they will—they will give us the support necessary to rebuild the country, to maintain it and bring to it that unity that every Irishman worthy of the name desires.

The views expressed here are the conventional views expected from Deputies. I am not a Party man and I never was, although I was a member of a Party. That is why I ceased to be a member of a Party. I speak as an Independent Deputy and I am not prejudiced against either of the Parties. I believe every Party does its best. Every Party wants to maintain itself in power. It is the system that is at fault. The Opposition may criticise the Government who attained power, admittedly, by big propaganda, especially through the medium of a newspaper trust. I shall not mention names but they did influence public opinion. I think it is most unfair that any Party should have the support of a newspaper trust. It brings democracy into contempt because many small people say: "What is the use? You have no chance." They sneer and jeer and will not vote. They join illegal organisations. When people feel they have no chance, they develop contempt for institutions.

The Opposition do not say what they would do if they were back in power. It is agreed that they did not deceive the people as much as the Party in power, which actually bulldozed the Coalition Government out of office. The Government should have been able to redeem some of its promises. Admittedly, there is a slight improvement in employment after 18 months but that hardly justified a change of Government. At the same time I do not believe any miracles can be performed. I am not as well educated as some gentlemen here but I have what is known as "savvy" which you get when you come up the hard way in life. This is not a rich country; we have no raw materials worth talking about and we could never be prosperous. We depend on agriculture which has its limits, especially where employment is concerned. If it was the other way round, if we were exporting industrial goods, we could probably employ twice as many people. I believe we shall always be struggling. We make little gains here and there but I doubt if, under present circumstances, any great gains will be made. That is why I say we may always have a certain amount of emigration and unemployment.

I find fault with the Government because of the niggardly manner in which they treated those who, we must accept, will be always with us, the unemployed, because of the miserable pittance of one shilling that they gave people receiving social benefits when they came into office. I feel bitter about this, as did a former member of the House, Deputy Murphy. There is an extraordinary case. He is a simple man—do not mind what you hear about him. He came here to advocate employment and better conditions for his fellow workers and very few men have resigned from the Dáil as he did. People think he is mad; he is honest.

The Deputy should come to the Estimate.

I think it is of major importance to know why a member resigns from the Dáil. He must have contempt for the Dáil and that is of major importance——

What is relevant is the administration of the Taoiseach's Department and major aspects of Government policy.

The Taoiseach is the Prime Minister and Ministers are really his deputies. I hold he is responsible for anything and everything done by his Government. I hold that the Government have treated people in a miserable manner with regard to social benefits by refusing to give some increase to meet the rise in the cost of living. Workers received an increase of 10/- a week but no commensurate increase was given to the recipients of social benefits. I want to draw the attention of the House to Lord Brookeborough's speech the other day when he compared the social benefits in the Six Counties with ours, and when he sneered at our miserable contributions and asked who would come in here. He was right. It is a matter of public importance that, if we cannot keep in line with social benefits in Britain, we should at least follow them as closely as we can.

I am principally concerned with Dublin and here there is grave unemployment, especially in the labouring class in the building trade. We know that trade is filtering away. There were, at one time, 4,500 men engaged in it in this city and now there are only 600. There is nothing to take the place of the building trade and I hold there should be other constructive, massive works which would absorb the unemployed in the building trade. We seem to be depending entirely on the efforts of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to get in foreign capital, but what will happen if he fails, and if the amount he gets in will give employment only to a few thousand boys and girls?

Six million pounds are spent annually on the Army and surely there could be savings made there to help to give some extra allowance to those people who are condemned to remain unemployed. The Minister for External Affairs has been making grandiose speeches around the Continent, but he treated this House with contempt. He hardly had a word to say. Not so long ago I read that one of our consular offices was to be raised to the status of an Embassy. That is happening all over Europe.

Partition is a very touchy subject. It is a subject, like many other things, about which we are not supposed to talk, but I would like the Taoiseach to remember that in view of his stand with regard to the Treaty, much more was expected of him in this connection when he got into office. I was the man longest in jail, still I am neutral. I believe that opposing the Treaty was wrong, but, seeing what happened has happened, I expected, as did many other people, that the Taoiseach, having opposed the Treaty, would have done something more in that direction. The Government can point out that certain objectives, in connection with the King, were achieved without any man getting a smack in the face. The external associations link was got rid of in a constitutional way, and when I look back at what has happened I ask myself: "What were we fighting about, what do we hope to achieve, and is there anything further we can do about Partition"?

Mention has been made of the political prisoners. I have strong views on that subject. I consider myself a responsible person and I do not care what other people think.

Hear, hear!

I am aware of the danger of talking about Partition. I am not a fool and I want to point out that there has not been an occasion in history in which a Government, supposed to work against a common evil, aided the people who were holding us down. The Government's attitude is, perhaps, that certain people have not a monopoly of patriotism, that these upstarts should toe the line and enter politics. These people have not much faith in politics and are not desirous of entering into them, due to the fact that they believe the whole political system is so fifth-columnist. I believe these boys feel as we felt in the old days. They see certain people holding part of our country by force.

I am a good student of history. I know as much of the history of this country as the Taoiseach does, and he knows a lot. I know the whole origin of Partition; I know the situation in the North was brought about by physical force, but I am not aware that anything brought about by physical force can be undone except by physical force. The Taoiseach himself admits that he has no policy on Partition. I, therefore, admit, and though it is dangerous, I hold that we have certain rights and, to some extent, I am in sympathy with the people up in the North. Knowing my history, knowing how Partition was brought about, knowing how it is maintained and knowing that no claim of of ours will ever convince those people, because they are a junta in office and will not agree to anything that might mean their losing power, I ask will the British do anything to help in any way? No, not at all, they will not, and it is clear that this is a Machiavellian creation we are up against. The answer to it is something which admittedly is dangerous, and that is why I have certain sympathies with these young fellows because they believe they are right.

Is the Government going too far in dealing with these people? The Government's argument is that they will not permit these people to challenge the authority of this State. I am not aware that they do. These people have gone across the Border and in the area in which we have no jurisdiction they have committed certain acts. I am not aware that they ever tapped the noses of our Guards. On occasions when the Guards met them they surrendered their weapons and, by doing that, in my opinion they were guilty only of having weapons illegally. These are young men who believe they are doing the right thing. They believe a certain method is the only method, and I believe it too. I believe the Government is powerless; and we must not get away from the fact that this is the only method. I am speaking as a responsible person and, if these young fellows feel they should do that, my attitude is that may be they might give the authorities up there so many headaches that maybe some responsible people in Britain would start talking about Partition, which they are not prepared to do now. I hold that, in a way, these young men are right. I shall say no more on that subject.

I want to refer now to the question of the allowances made to Deputies. There is hardly a Deputy who has not discussed this question and who is afraid to talk about it—but I am not afraid——

This is not an aspect of major Government policy.

Is it not a matter of importance that Deputy Murphy resigned because the man could not live?

The Taoiseach is responsible to this House for major Government policy. Surely this is not a matter of major Government policy?

Supposing men refused to stand for election because they might go like Deputy Murphy? Would that not be a matter of importance to the House?

The Chair cannot discuss hypothetical matters.

I am not trying to involve the State in any extra expenditure.

I am not trying to save the State expenditure; I am just pointing out the matter is not relevant.

A man resigned. The reasons should have been of some importance to the House. Other men may resign. I shall not. I came in here representing a certain viewpoint—the viewpoint of those who do not vote— that is the majority of the people to-day. The majority do not vote. I claim to represent the majority. I know it is a joke, but when you take into account the South Central election and the fact that 35,000 people refused to vote, I think it is a matter of importance. I headed the poll in North Central. I can assure the House that, if I had not been a candidate, 90 per cent. of the people would not have voted. On two previous occasions, when I happened to be eliminated, most of the votes were non-transferable.

I am speaking on behalf of the majority. I want to make one more protest against the deception the Government employed to oust another Government. I want to protest against the action of a newspaper trust in denying individuals any opportunity of becoming members of this House. In the general election, although I phoned twice and wrote twice, I was denied my name in this paper.

The policy and activities of a newspaper do not fall for discussion.

It is at the back of it. It is of vital importance. It is responsible for the present Government being in office.

Will the Deputy try to distinguish between importance and relevance? It may be important, but it is not relevant on this Estimate and I cannot allow the Deputy discuss it.

All right; I have mentioned it anyway. I have made my contribution and my protest. I shall make them again in the name of all the unemployed people and all the unfortunate people compelled to live on a pittance in spite of the deceptive claims of Fianna Fáil 18 months ago.

When Deputy Costello was speaking this morning, in the opening stages of his remarks he made what I thought was a very striking admission—at least by implication. He claimed that this time last year the present Government was putting through Bills which his Government, the second Coalition Government, had prepared. I presume that, in making that claim, Deputy Costello included in this category the Budget which this Government introduced in 1957? If he did not intend to make that claim, I think he ought to, because it was his Government which left behind it the conditions which made the 1957 Budget inevitable.

Let us consider the facts. On the 8th May, 1956, Deputy Sweetman, then Deputy Costello's Minister for Finance, introduced the last Budget of the second Coalition. Deputies who listened this morning to Deputy Costello's speech will be surprised to learn that, in the Budget to which I am referring, the second Coalition proposed—I am afraid, Sir, I will have to sit down until the conversazione on the other side has ended.

Order! The Minister for Health.

As I say, those who listened to Deputy Costello this morning talk about reducing taxation will be surprised to learn that, in the last Budget of his second Coalition, it was proposed to increase taxation by no less than £8,300,000. Of this sum £5,300,000 was appropriated to defray current expenditure, and an estimated £3,000,000 was ostensibly and very ostentatiously earmarked for capital purposes. But even the £8,300,000 was not sufficient for the Coalition's purposes, and Deputy Sweetman, Minister for Finance as he was then, proposed to snitch £500,000 from the Road Fund in addition to the £8,300,000.

It would be useful to examine how that Budget worked out. It discloses the grim reality of the economic plight to which the policies of Deputy Costello's second Coalition had brought the country. First of all, the yield from the special import levy, instead of just being £3,000,000 as Deputy Sweetman had estimated, was actually £4,270,000. Usually, when a tax yields a greater amount than was anticipated, one is glad. At least, the person responsible for the tax is glad that such has been the case. But there is nothing to be jubilant about in the fact that the yield from the special import levy was almost 50 per cent. higher than Deputy Sweetman had budgeted for, because that levy was a blanket levy; it fell on everyone and was imposed on everything. Raw materials of industry, tools of trade, commercial equipment were subjected to it, as well as luxuries or articles which might reasonably be dispensed with in an emergency such as the Coalition Government was facing at the end of 1955 and in 1956.

As I have said, the levy caught everyone and everything. Of course, it had inevitable consequences. As a result of it we had a marked slump in industry. It is undeniable that such a slump took place. Everybody began to pinch and pare. People stopped spending, even for the most essential purposes. The consequence was that we had soaring unemployment—unemployment figures which had not been reached in this State before. We had a real genuine unemployment.

We had unemployment in industrial occupations. We had unemployment of insured persons who had never been out of a job in their lives. That was the consequence of the policy which the Labour Party, as a member of the Coalition, endorsed when it was put before this House. The results of this economic collapse were, of course, reflected in a diminished yield from the other customary taxes, the normal taxes. As I have mentioned, Deputy Sweetman estimated that the yield from these taxes —the taxes on tobacco, spirits, beer, petrol, and so on—would give him about £94,479,000, let us say £94,500,000 in round figures. Instead of that, in actual fact, they yielded only £89,800,000—a short-fall of £4,700,000 in the yield from the customary taxes.

That short-fall was entirely due to the dislocation, the uncertainty, the sense of impending disaster which was created not merely by the levies—let me be fair about that—but by public uneasiness as to what would happen to the finances of this State. This was reflected in every part of the fiscal sector. Even the motor vehicle duties from which, as I had told you, Deputy Sweetman as Minister for Finance anticipated he would secure £500,000 additional revenue, slumped. Under Fianna Fáil, the revenue from the motor vehicle duties was increasing. It was going up rapidly. It was going up much more rapidly than even the most optimistic of us could have anticipated in 1947-48. They were budgeted to bring in about £5,750,000 in 1956. In actual fact, the yield from motor vehicle duties slumped by £1,000,000. There was £1,000,000 less to finance essential works of economic development in this country.

The extraordinary thing about it is that, though the yield from the motor vehicle duties was £1,000,000 short of the estimate, that did not deter Deputy Sweetman as Minister for Finance from seeking to appropriate that £500,000. It was brought into the Exchequer, as it began to come into the Road Fund, to defray certain types of expenditure which, when Fianna Fáil were securely in office, had always been met out of revenue. The tragic final outcome of this, the second Coalition Budget, which increased—let me remind the House again—rates of taxation and imposed new taxes in order to get an extra £8,300,000 was a deficit on the 31st March of last year on the current Budget of £6,000,000. Therefore, one can say that, so far as budgeting was concerned, the last Coalition Budget was a disaster. It was £14,000,000 odd on the wrong side.

That was the situation which we had to face when we took office in the middle of March. People say that history does not repeat itself. History will, if the same men continue to pursue the same policies. It is extraordinary how the position in March, 1957, resembled the position in June of 1951.

During the course of this debate, I understand that there have been gibes about promises. Deputy J.A. Costello took occasion this morning to refer to some statement of mine. I should like to refer to a statement which I took the trouble of posting to himself and every member of his household who was on the Voters' Register during the general election of last year. I assume somebody read it for him. After all, he would have to decide at some stage when he was going to the polling booth to mark his ballot paper as to whether or not he would give me any sort of preference. As a man of balanced judgment, no doubt he weighed the pros and cons. If he did read this document, here is what I said in relation to this question of broken promises and good and bad faith: "We do not promise to perform miracles." This was issued on behalf of my colleague, Councillor Seán Moore, and myself, to all the electors in Dublin South-East.

This was before Deputy Doctor Browne——

This was in March, 1957. After all, the Deputy was a much closer associate of Deputy Dr. Browne than I ever was. He sat in the same Cabinet with him and I am told he is the man who upheld his hands.

The statement circulated on my behalf said:—

"We do not promise to perform miracles. We do not promise, as our opponents did last time, to increase expenditure and, at the same time, to reduce taxation."

There was no promise there. In fact, there was an emphatic declaration that we were not making any promises. I went on to say:—

"With a full sense of responsibility to all our people, a Fianna Fáil Government would scrutinise every channel of public expenditure and cut out every item which can reasonably be dispensed with. The result should enable taxation, particularly of the kind which is a discouragement to effort, thrift, and enterprise to be reduced."

Reduced? Sevenpence on butter; 3/6 on flour and sixpence on the two-lb. loaf?

Will the Deputy try to contain himself?

Just wait now. The sugar for the Deputy was on the top. He has licked it off now. The pamphlet continued:—

"We should like to be more specific in regard to this most important matter and we would be if we knew the whole truth of the financial situation of the State. But Mr. Costello's Coalition has denied this knowledge to the people. He has dissolved the Dáil at the very period when the facts should be forthcoming. Therefore, we will not make blind promises. We ask you to vote for us as honest and honourable men."

That is the point. The facts of the disastrous 1956 Budget were known to Deputy J.A. Costello when he secured the dissolution of the Dáil in February, 1957. They were known not only to Deputy J.A. Costello but to Deputy Sweetman, Deputy Dillon, Deputy O'Donnell, Deputy Corish, Deputy Norton, Deputy Blowick—to every one of those who have been vilifying us on the alleged ground that we deceived the people.

We had not the facts of the financial situation before us during the election. They had. Every tittle of information that would enable the Government to forecast what the situation was likely to be was before Deputy Costello when he went to the President in February of last year and asked him to grant a dissolution of Dáil Éireann. Everything, as I have said, was known to him during the 1957 General Election and yet, not a hint, not a whimper, was given by him as to the facts of the situation. He asked the people to vote in ignorance of it, to vote blindly, although his own eyes were wide awake to it. And now Deputy Costello talks of deceiving the people.

I said that Deputy Costello ought to claim the 1957 Budget among his achievements. He shares half the responsibility for it, the first half, the responsibility for creating conditions which made such a Budget inevitable. He was not responsible for framing the Budget. Everybody who remembers the 1951 procedure and what was done in regard to the 1949 and 1951 Budgets will realise that the framing of an honest Budget, in the circumstances which I have described, was a task beyond Deputy Costello's courage and mettle. Just as in 1951 he took refuge from his budgetary difficulties by having Dáil Éireann dissolved, he resorted to the same strategy last year. He ran away from his difficulties. He refused to face up to them. He shirked the odium of putting things right. And now he and his colleagues are criticising and blaming their successors for doing what they themselves should have done if they wanted to serve this country and its people well. Our critics, who have full knowledge of the facts, know that the 1952 and 1954 Budgets were unavoidable, that they were an imperative necessity for the economic salvation of this country and that they were necessitated by the policies pursued over the 1948-1951 and the 1954-1957 periods by the Coalitions.

Deputy Costello referred this morning to the 1952 Budget. Perhaps it was as a result of that 1952 Budget that Deputy Costello became Taoiseach for the second time in 1954. Why did he not openly reverse the policy enshrined in the 1952 Budget? Ours was a policy of meeting our obligations honourably, of paying our way as we went, a policy of being frank with the people and telling them that they could not have their cake without paying for it, that they could not have all the services that they were demanding unless they were taxed for them.

Deputy Costello had an opportunity, when he came into office for the second period in 1954 of frankly abandoning the principles upon which Fianna Fáil had based its policies. Why did he not so abandon them? Why did he not reduce taxation by £10,000,000? That was the bait which had been held out by his former Minister for Finance and subsequent Attorney-General on the very eve of the poll in the 1954 general election? Why did Deputy Costello, like a man, not honour the pledge given to the people by one of his closest associates?

The lesson of the 1956 Budget to which I have referred should be obvious to us all. It is that as a result of the Budget and the policies pursued by the Coalition during the two years 1954 to 1957 we had a progressive reduction in tax revenue despite the most stringent increase in tax rates. In this there was revealed the unwisdom of the blanket levy. We, the successors of the Coalition, were faced in 1957 with the stark fact that no matter how high we might increase the rates of taxation, the resultant revenue could not carry the burden of expenditure which the Coalition policies had placed upon the State.

As I have pointed out, despite the fact that they budgeted for £8,300,000 more there was a short-fall from tax revenue, the proceeds of which are used to defray the current expenses of the State, of almost £5,000,000. There is only one lesson to be drawn from that—that the stage of diminishing returns had been reached, when if you did increase the rates of taxation, you were not going to get more money. Therefore, the only way you could balance you Budget was to reduce expenditure. Just as in 1952, so too in 1957, we had the unpleasant task of increasing taxation on the one hand and reducing expenditure on the other in order that we might secure a balanced Budget.

I referred to the unwisdom of the blanket levy on imports. I do not wish to derogate in any way from the achievement of Deputy Sweetman. I think it was a signal achievement for him to have persuaded the Coalition, having regard to its composition and having regard to its record as a Government, to do something about the rapidly deteriorating position. It is well known that my colleagues and I supported him in this House when he told the people frankly that something would have to be done if we were not to rush to disaster in 1956. But we supported him with definite reservations. We pointed out that the blanket levy did not discriminate between goods, between those which might reasonably be taxed in order to discourage their importation because they could be done without, even at the cost of some little inconvenience, of perhaps deprivation, to a number of people. But not only did it tax these not indispensable articles, but it also, as everybody knows, taxed the raw materials of industry, the tools of trade and commercial equipment.

There was no sense in that and we made that view clear at the time. We did not, of course, indulge in the rhetoric which was so common from the Opposition benches during the debates on the 1952 and subsequent Budgets but we did make our point quite clear, that while we were not prepared in the circumstances to embarrass the Minister for Finance in the task with which we thought he was trying to grapple, to the point of dividing the House, we had these reservations. We only refrained from a division in regard to them, in order that we might make it quite clear to everybody that we thought the position as it then existed was one of the utmost gravity. We were acquiescing, if you like, in the imposition of this levy because to divide the House on it might have created the impression in the public mind that the position was not grave enough to justify drastic measures.

We also urged that there should be some attempt to secure economy in Government and some attempt to reduce expenditure. In everything I personally said inside and outside this House I stressed the need to reduce expenditure and, concomitant with that, to reduce taxation. Deputy Costello this morning said that he considered there was nothing more essential for the well-being of our economy, for our economic progress, than a reduction in taxation. You cannot, however, have any real reduction in taxation unless you first reduce expenditure or at least take steps to ensure that if you do reduce taxation the reduction in expenditure will take place more or less simultaneously.

We have been faced with a very difficult situation recently. We have had something which we never anticipated, something which none of us desired. We have had for the first time since the Famine an exportable surplus of grain, grain which has to be exported unless we are prepared to let it rot in the fields, a wheat surplus which has to be exported and exported at whatever price it will fetch on the world market. A guarantee was given to the farmers, always on the assumption that they would produce only enough for our own needs, and nothing for export. Nobody would ever think that we would start to compete in the markets of the world with Canada and Australia and the vast ranching countries so far as wheat was concerned.

Therefore, there was no use in any Deputy arguing here that the price undertaking was given without an implied limitation as to quantity. But it was given admittedly, and in consequence the production last year far exceeded what any person ever anticipated. On top of that we had inherited a considerable quantity of wheat purchased by the millers on the instructions of Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture, which could not be disposed of, not even for animal feeding. It had to be got rid of somehow.

It could only be got rid of by sending it out of the country.

Blather.

That may be, but Deputy Dillon is famous on this question of wheat. He once said he would not be found dead in a field of wheat. Thank God he was not found dead in a field of wheat; otherwise the Dáil and the country would miss a great deal of entertainment from time to time.

Coming back to this question, there was the problem of having to export considerable quantities of wheat surplus to our requirements and export them at a loss. We had to pay those who had produced the wheat but, in order to make certain that the problem would not become unmanageable in future years, certain steps had to be taken. One of the effects of the step undoubtedly would have been to reduce the obligations of the Exchequer in respect of surplus wheat. There would have been a reduction in expenditure which might not lead to any reduction in taxation but which would certainly prevent an increase in taxation. We had the same problem in regard to butter.

What sort of support has the Government had from the Opposition in the endeavours which it was making to ensure that the expenditure on export subsidies would not increase? The House listened to the debate yesterday on the Grain Bill. The very Party whose leader this morning told the House that he felt it was essential that taxation should be reduced were the Party who were criticising the Government because it was taking steps which would certainly ensure that taxation would not be increased. I am not going to say that the steps which were taken will result in any reduction in taxation but certainly they will mitigate the effect on the taxpayer of the fact that we have a large exportable surplus of wheat, the export of which has to be subsidised.

On this question of taxation Deputy Costello made what was a very startling claim. I can only think that he had not read his brief or that perhaps he was not even briefed on the point and that it was an impromptu remark. He claimed that his Governments had been the Governments which had reduced taxation and the only Governments which had reduced taxation. He went further and said that when Fianna Fáil were in office taxation had always been increased. He had the audacity to say that, because the two things which naturally are prominent in the public mind are the Budget of 1952 and the Budget of last year.

Let us look at the facts. Nineteen hundred and thirty-seven is a convenient date to begin with. In that year there was a Fianna Fáil Government in office with an overall majority. So far as finance was concerned, it could shape its own fiscal and social policies as it liked. It was not dependent on any Party in this house. It was an independent Party with—I think—a majority of at least 11, and perhaps 14. In that year, the last before the international situation became critical, the Fianna Fáil Government reduced the duty on tea at a cost of £325,000, and on sugar at a cost of £121,000. May I say that we inherited the duty on tea and on sugar from our predecessors, the Cumann na nGaedheal Government? We abolished the customs duty on wheat at a cost of £170,000. In addition to that, we increased widows' and orphans' pensions and Army pensions; we reduced the price of butter by 2d. per lb. and improved social services.

The cost of the tax remissions was over £600,000—I think it was £611,000. The cost of the improved services, the increased widows' and orphans' pensions and the Army pensions, and the reduction in the price of butter totalled over £612,000. By increasing social welfare benefits and reducing taxation the Fianna Fáil Government in 1937 succeeded in lightening the burden on the taxpayer to the extent of £1,200,000. It has not been done since, certainly not by either of the Coalition Governments.

Having done all this we wound up the year, not with a deficit of £7,000,000 as was the case with Deputy McGilligan's Budget in 1951, or of £6,000,000 as in the case of Deputy Sweetman's Budget of 1956, but with a surplus of £629,000. In addition, we had paid all housing charges and a substantial proportion of capital expenditure out of revenue. That was done in 1937.

Deputy Costello said only Coalitions could reduce taxation. In contrast to the 1937 result we may place Deputy McGilligan's performance on the 1949 Budget. He gave some small concessions in that Budget. I think they cost about £700,000 or something like that but that Budget closed with a deficit of £2,265,000. It is easy to appear to reduce taxation, if you deliberately budget for a deficit and then borrow to pay what you should have taxed for. That was a device resorted to continuously by the first Coalition. The result was, as I have said, that Deputy McGilligan's first Budget closed with a deficit of £2,265,000, and this after putting £4,500,000 to capital account for items which would previously have been charged against revenue. Deputy Dillon's day-old chicks were one of the items.

We can see that so far as the first Coalition Government was concerned it did not reduce taxation. On the contrary, it increased it considerably and where it did not increase it, it borrowed money to avoid temporarily the need to do so. We now have the unpleasant task, having cleaned up after two Coalitions, of taxing the people to pay for that £4,500,000 which Deputy MacGilligan should have secured out of taxation in 1949.

I have already mentioned the £7,000,000 deficit on the 1951 Budget, but when we came into office in 1951, and I came to this House and pointed out what would be the outcome of the 1951 Budget, we were bitterly attacked. We were told we were alarming the people, disheartening them, creating gloom and depression. One does not create gloom and depression by having the courage and manliness to face up to a situation which requires these qualities. If you give the people right leadership, they will follow you as they have shown in the last two by-elections but I do not want to get on to that trend.

When we took office in 1951 the financial outlook was even worse than the £7,000,000 deficit suggested, for not only had we to budget to cover that deficit in 1952 but we also had to budget to finance commitments not only in respect of social services but of external borrowings. The new Fianna Fáil Government, first of all, had to make provision for the deficiency in revenue. It also had to provide for the Coalition's—in my opinion wholly unjustifiable—borrowing from the United States. Then the Budget had to provide for the new social welfare code, a Bill for which had been introduced by Deputy Norton as Minister for Social Welfare in the first Coalition. I was very doubtful as to the wisdom of that measure, not as to the desirability of it, but as to the capacity of our people to pay for it.

It will be remembered that we divided the House on the Second Reading of that Bill. We did so for this reason: no financial particulars were given as to what the Bill was likely to cost. But we did not divide on the principle that something should be done to improve social services. We felt that in the manner in which the scheme had been presented to the House we had not got the information that was essential if the effect of it was to be judged fairly. We also said another section of the population should be given priority over those who were to be covered by the Bill. The net effect of all this was that, when the General Election of 1951 was fought and won by us, we had to have regard to the fact that this Bill had been introduced, and to the fact that both sides of the House had asked for an increase in the rates of old age pensions. We had to have regard to the fact that it had been agreed that it was necessary to extend and improve health services. But none of these commitments had been covered by Deputy McGilligan's 1951 Budget. We were faced with a situatian then, that we had first to find £7,000,000 to cover the services as they existed at that time and then we had to find an additional sum to cover the increased remuneration of civil servants which had been met by borrowing in the previous year. We had also to find money to finance the Social Welfare Act of 1952 and the Health Act of 1953, which was in the offing.

All these things had to be done and the consequence was that we had to face the fact that we could not pay our way because there was a gap of £15,000,000 between the revenue which we expected to collect and the expenditure we had to meet. We decided we could not impose £15,000,000 in additional taxation on the people. We went very far in what we did, so far that we passed, for the time being, the borderline of expediency inasmuch as the result of the 1952 taxes was as disappointing as the result of Deputy Sweetman's taxes in 1956 and instead of realising the full amount—let me be clear about this; we did not have an absolute fall in total revenue—we did not get from the increased taxation the yield which we anticipated. Though we did get a considerable increase in total revenue the disappointing return, as I have said, indicated that we have gone to the very borderline of expediency in trying to tax people.

It is an old saying that "one cannot take breeks from a Highland man", and there is also a point beyond which you cannot tax people and get an adequate return. We decided it was necessary to lay solid foundations for all State enterprises, for economic progress, and to restore public confidence in the integrity of the Government, and in the manner in which the nation's finances were managed. We decided that, since we could not take in £15,000,000 in taxation, we had to reduce expenditure and we did it in the way which is well known to everyone.

As I say, we did not quite balance the 1952 Budget. That Budget is now a part of history but we must still think about it. Nothing which was done in the 1952 Budget was undone by the second Coalition. The taxes which were imposed in 1952 are still there. The subsidies which had to be reduced have remained reduced. Nothing the second Coalition did lightened the burden on the people. The 1952 Budget, as amended by the 1954 Budget, remains as the solid foundation which made continued economic development possible. It is true that, by its policy and its ineptitude, the Coalition weakened that foundation, and brought our economy once again in 1956, as in 1951, to the verge—I will not say what I was going to say—they brought it to a perilous condition.

The Minister was not so scrupulous when he put the three brass balls on his poster.

Deputy Costello in his remarks this morning said that only the Coalition reduced taxes. In the 1954 Budget I was able to grant several income-tax reliefs under various headings. I was also able to reduce the beer duty, the entertainments duty, the match duty, and to reduce the stamp duty on the sales of property. All told, the cost of these tax reductions came to £900,000 in 1954. On the other side of the account I provided a similar amount to reduce the price of flour and bread, and by this subvention and these tax reductions I was able to ease the position for the taxpayers to the extent of almost £2,000,000, or £1,800,000 to be exact. Not only that, the 1954 Budget would have balanced but for the fact that it was sabotaged by the second Coalition, which undertook expenditure that was not contemplated, and for which money had not been provided.

What then becomes of Deputy Costello's boast this morning? As I have shown, the Coalitions did not reduce taxes. On the contrary they increased them considerably and, where they did not increase them to meet their obligations on current account, they borrowed to cover the deficiency. Now the country is paying for that borrowing. The marked characteristic of all recent Budgets has been the amount required to meet the charges on national loans. It has been increasing because of past borrowings, to cover all the budgetary deficits to which I have referred. The taxpayer is not only repaying the money borrowed in past years to meet current obligations, but is also paying interest on it. He is, in fact, worse off than if the Coalition Government had met their own obligations, honestly and honourably, as they arose.

This morning, in an attempt to comfort his followers, Deputy Costello had quite a number of excuses to offer for the position in which his Government left the country in February of last year. He said they had been struck by an economic blizzard, and he referred to the fact that the terms of trade had been turning continuously against them. He seemed to think that in some magical way that trend had been reversed and, in 1957, had been flowing in our favour. I have here the Irish Statistical Survey and I find on page 31, prices Table 17, with the price index number on the basis of 100 in 1953.

Deputy Costello said this morning that import prices had fallen by 7 per cent. and I find in the year 1951-52 the index figure for import prices was 106.6.

What Deputy Costello said was 6 per cent. this year.

It was 104.1 in 1955 and 106.1 in 1956.

What is the Minister quoting from?

From Table 17 of the Irish Statistical Survey. I am very sorry if the Deputy does not hear me.

I hear the Minister now.

That is good. Now that the Deputy's sense of hearing is good I hope his intelligence will be equally acute, and he will be able to follow the figures I am giving.

Give the figures but do not ascribe them to Deputy Costello.

I was referring to the figures given by Deputy Costello.

That was not what he said.

I have read the typescript of Deputy Costello's speech myself. I know the gloss that Deputy Costello put on it, but I am now giving the official figures. Here they are: The index figure of import prices in 1952 was 106.6. In 1955 it was 104.1, in 1956 it was 106.1 and last year, though we were told this morning that import prices had fallen by 7 per cent., for the year 1957 the index of import prices stood at 111.9. Last year, let me repeat, the index of import prices stood at 111.9.

And the years we were in office it was 117.6.

For 1956, which is the year with which the Deputy was immediately concerned, the import price index was 106.1. It rose by approximately 5 per cent. last year. We did not grumble and complain when this happened, or say: "That is our excuse for having made a mess of the country's affairs." On the other hand, take the trend of export prices. According to this table, the index of import prices in 1952 was 99.3. It was 100 in 1953, 98.4 in 1954, 101.4 in 1955, 95.9 in 1956 and 97.6 in 1957.

But Deputy Costello referred to the terms of trade. Let us see what happened to the terms of trade, because that is a really significant thing in relation to our balance of payments. In 1954, the terms of trade were against us at 97.8; in 1955, the figure was 97.4; and in 1956, 90.4. In 1957, which is the critical year for us, they were lower still. The position may have been bad enough under Deputy Dillon, Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Costello, but it was far worse for us last year because there was a decline. There was a further swing against us of 3 per cent. in 1957. But we did not complain. We did not try to say: "That is the reason why things are not much better than they are." The real fact of the matter is that, once you begin to look at the figures in this connection, the whole of Deputy Costello's apologia this morning is exploded.

Take the question of high investment. Ah, no, I shall take the balance of payments first. Deputy Costello said he had been grappling with the balance of payments problem in 1956. That is quite true. He had been grappling with the balance of payments problem in 1956. He should have grappled with it very much earlier in 1955. When there was a motion down here in 1955, I called attention to the fact that the balance of payments situation appeared to be getting out of hand. In any event, let us see what the position was in relation to the balance of payments.

The balance of payments occupies a very significant position in my memory because I remember that, when I came in in 1951 and warned the country as to what the outcome of our trading for the year 1951 was likely to be, I was told I was an alarmist and that my statement would not hold water. Deputy Costello was most emphatic in that regard. Let us look at the position as it developed from 1949. In 1950, we had an adverse balance of £30.2 millions.

What is the Minister reading from now?

I beg the Deputy's pardon. Will he enunciate a little clearer and a little less noisily?

What is the Minister reading from?

Well now, I think the Deputy has a copy of it.

Perhaps I have.

I am reading from page 17, table 9.

It is always well to keep one's eye on the Minister.

As I was saying, in 1950 the balance of payments was on the wrong side to the extent of £30.2 millions. We were not in office then. In 1951, as a result of the policies which had been set in train and commitments which had been entered into and which we had to honour, the balance of payments was £61.6 millions, and the Budget of 1952 was designed to correct that situation. We were wiser in the measures we took than was Deputy Sweetman in regard to those which he was permitted to take by the second Coalition. In consequence, in 1952, the adverse balance fell to £8.9 millions; it was £7.0 millions in 1953 and £5.5 millions in 1954.

In 1954 the Fianna Fáil policy was still working out, because we did not leave office until after the critical period in that year. But what happened? The Coalition came in. It set its targets high in the matter of rash expenditure. Its members appeared to regard the fact that when they were previously in office the adverse trade balance had been £30.2 millions in 1950 and was more than double that in 1951, when they left office as fixing their goal, and to have decided to emulate their previous record. Whereas the Coalition had been left by us in 1954 to meet a modest deficit on foreign account of £5.5 millions, they jumped the figure to £35.5 millions in 1955 and to £14.4 millions in 1956.

£14.4 millions in 1956.

Yes, and——

And in 1957——

What happened then?

We came in and took over. That is what happened then.

And a right mess you made of it.

Go on and let us have the trade figures for 1957.

The figures for 1957 are not at all disquieting.

Read them out to us now.

I have given the figures for 1957.

The Minister has not.

I am sorry. You asked me what happened in 1957. There is a balance—a balance on the right side of £9.2 millions, which you cannot claim.

And in the Minister's own words, it is as a result of the policy put in train before you got in and admitted by your Minister for Finance in March, 1957.

When Deputy Sweetman was spending his time more pleasantly, but not more profitably elsewhere, I dealt with that point. He can read my speech in the morning.

I do enough penance without inflicting that on myself.

The position is that, in 1957, we made the position right.

By exporting the cattle.

Quiet, now. Even if it were true, and I deny it is true, that you succeeded in retrieving the situation, let me say that the mess was of your own creating. The balance of payments figures show it. £8.9 millions in 1952, £7,000,000 in 1953, £5.5 millions in 1954—a continuous fall from £61.6 millions in 1951. And then you take over. Of course, the bull frogs start inflating. They are blowing themselves up. We have to be big fellows buying cargoes at the rate of £6,000,000 or 6,000,000 dollars— cargoes of wheat we do not want, as has been shown last year and the year before. So we find that in 1955 the adverse trade balance has jumped to £35.5 millions and in 1956, it is £14.4 millions.

There is no use coming in here and claiming credit for cleaning up a mess which you, yourselves, created. But you did not clean up the mess. As in 1951, you left us to clean it up by the Budget of 1957, the results of which are now plain to be seen throughout the whole economy in reduced unemployment, in increased production and in the general confidence throughout the country. The credit of the State has gone up since we took over. The people are beginning to have some sort of heart.

Another point that Deputy J. A. Costello made was that the policy of his Government had been high investment in Ireland based on high saving. The actual figures deny the statement which Deputy J.A. Costello made. He is an advocate. He ought at least to know, as a serious practitioner, that one ounce of evidence, one five minutes of incontrovertible evidence, is worth all the eloquence that one can bring to bear in making a case before a jury. In this case, the jury is the Irish people. Deputy J.A. Costello said their policy had been one of high investment in Ireland based on high savings. Let us see how that has worked out.

I understand there is an Order of the House to let the Taoiseach rise at 10.30 p.m. The Minister has now been speaking for an hour. Just as a matter of interest, does he intend to talk it out?

Not very much longer. But I should like to get these figures on the record.

Does the Minister intend to talk out the half hour?

No. I have not occupied the House for a very long time.

I have spoken for an hour before. I hope it was an enjoyable hour for those who have been listening.

It was instructive, in any case.

Hope is a harmless virtue.

We had to take over in 1951. In 1952, the gross national capital formation was £56,000,000. National savings were £42.9 million. The adverse balance on external account was £8.9 million.

In 1953, the gross national capital formation was £71.9 million. The national savings were £56.5 million. The balance of payments deficit was £7,000,000.

In 1954, the gross national capital formation was £62.2 million. Savings amounted to £44.4 million. The balance of payments deficit was down to £5.5 million.

Then, of course, the big men took over—the men who pretend to believe in high investment in Ireland based on high savings. The gross national capital formation fell from £62.6 million in 1954 to £48.2 million in 1955. Savings fell from £44.4 million in 1954 to £29.3 million in 1955. Where is the high saving? Where is the high investment? The adverse balance of payments jumped from £5.5 million in 1954 to £35.5 million.

In 1956, the gross national capital formation amounted to £53.8 million. Savings were slightly better; they amounted to £32.1 million. The position in relation to the balance of payments was somewhat better still. The adverse balance had fallen from £35,500,000 to £14.4 million. These are the figures for 1955 and 1956 when the Coalition Government was supposed to have been pursuing a policy of high investment based on high savings.

The rate of capital formation was very much lower in 1955 and 1956 than it had been in 1954. The rate of savings was very much lower in 1955 and 1956 than in 1954. The adverse balance on external account was very much higher than it had been in 1954.

Now we come to last year—the year when we took over from Deputy J.A. Costello and his merry men. What happened? The gross national capital formation jumped from £53.8 million to £79,000,000. National savings jumped from £32.1 million to £55,000,000. Instead of having an adverse balance on the external account, we had a favourable balance of £9.2 million for the first time since, I think, 1946.

There is the situation. We are offering no alibis or apologies. We do not have to make alibis or to find excuses because we have done the job in 1957 and in the first six months of 1958 which you ought to have been doing in 1955 and 1956.

The most interesting thing about the last hour is that we have been talking about 1938 and 1939, but we have not been talking about 1958.

Deputy J.A. Costello was talking about 1952.

We have not been applying the acid test, the only test that counts—the results of policy, the performance of undertakings.

Deputies will remember that the present Taoiseach, the moment he took office, wished to be judged by two criteria—the success or failure that attended his efforts to increase employment. Yesterday, he was asked to give statistical information about the number of persons in employment in this country. He himself elected to measure it—albeit, approximately—by the number of social service stamps sold, on average, in the past three years. Allowing for the discrepancies that might occur, he made the astonishing revelation that the number of persons in employment in this country was 35,000 fewer, on an average, in 1957 than in 1956.

The present Taoiseach wished to be judged by his success or failure in checking the flow of emigration. If you take the figures, as revealed by the initial purchase of social service stamps by Irish nationals in Great Britain, checked by the figures for net passenger landings and departures at our ports, you will find that emigration has been running at substantially over 55,000 in 1957 and that, for the first five months of 1958, it has exceeded 19,000—without taking into account anybody who has emigrated to Canada, the United States, Australia or elsewhere, but confining ourselves exclusively to the figures of those of our people who have gone to Great Britain in search of work.

The present Minister for Health glories in the exertions which in his day certainly reduced the adverse balance of payments, according to the figures he read out, but sent abroad a mighty tide of emigration which justified Deputy Briscoe's saying in New York that there could not be a financial crisis in this country because we were already too poor.

I did not say that. I was reported wrongly.

It does not matter. Let him say that you did.

He knows I did not say that.

The facts are that, by those criteria, this Government has signally failed and these are the criteria that this Government chose itself. The facts are that the results of the policies pursued by our Government and by the present Government are to be seen in the trade returns. It would be true that we would have very little to boast of if the £9.2 million of a credit trade balance was derived exclusively from a reduction in our exports, but that is not so. All of that £9.2 million of a credit balance in our balance of payments was achieved by increased exports. Those exports, as the Minister for Health well knows, were largely the live stock that the Minister for Lands said represented a bankrupt trade out of which the bottom had fallen. Not even the Minister for Health will contend that the cattle shipped abroad in 1957 were born in the last nine months of that year. They were the fruit of the policy operated by the inter-Party Government designed to expand agricultural production in this country.

That policy resulted in the largest exports of cattle from Ireland ever recorded in the history of this country, the largest production of wheat ever gathered from the land of Ireland, the largest output of barley ever grown off the land of Ireland, the greatest quantity of milk ever delivered to the creameries of Ireland and the highest output of butter ever known in the history of Ireland. Was that a good result or a bad result? Is that not to be compared with the well-known consequences of Fianna Fáil policy which brought agriculture in this country to the lowest depth of degradation ever recorded in Ireland since the Famine, when we had the lowest number of cattle, pigs and sheep on the land of Ireland since 1848 and when the land was in such a state of dereliction that large numbers of live stock were in danger of starvation for the want of phosphates and lime in the grass?

I put those policies in comparison and I direct the attention of this House to one of the most dastardly blows that even Fianna Fáil has ever struck this country. I do not forget the varieties of wars into which Fianna Fáil drove our people, but the bitterest blow ever struck by that Party was the campaign, very largely conducted by the Minister for Health, who has now withdrawn from the House——

Let him go.

——the purpose of which was to create the impression, and he very largely succeeded, that the economic position of this country was in jeopardy. Do you remember the threats of economic crisis and impending bankruptcy? Do you remember the description of forthcoming crises and the crocodile tears about the failure of the national loan? Do you recall that all those were in the year 1956 and in the first quarter of 1957? Do you remember the election posters: "Elect us to beat the crisis." That campaign successfully injured our international reputation for solvency, but, what was worse, it took the heart out of our own people.

In the first quarter of a year which ended up with the highest level of exports this country had ever had and the first credit balance of payments outside the war years that had been recorded since the State was founded, that campaign was carried on. Was there ever a more ignoble instance of placing the passing interests of a political Party before the true interests of the nation? Do you remember Deputy Briscoe lamenting loud and long on the fact that the national loan fell £1,250,000 short of being filled because the interest rate offered was somewhat lower than the money market was prepared to accept? Within a month, a New Zealand loan at the same rate of interest failed to fill by 90 per cent. but nobody in New Zealand spread rumours throughout the country that their credit was gone.

They said that the terms of the loan were unsuitable to the then condition of the money market. As the price of money was rising to the fantastic level it reached in the early part of 1957, the Government rightly refused to follow its gyrations in the sure foreknowledge that it was reaching rates which could not last. It was our obligation to secure national loans at a level that would bear some true relation to long-term money values. Those fantastic rates have since fallen by 2 per cent. from the apex at which they then stood.

It was from Fianna Fáil that we got the prophecies of woe. It was Fianna Fáil who spread the belief that there was no future in Ireland, that it was a place to get out of, and very largely as a result of that advice, the young people have gone and are going. They have the authority of the leaders of Fianna Fáil that there is no use in staying or working here. It was they who told the youth that this country was foredoomed to bankruptcy and futility. It was Fianna Fáil who urged them to get out and who said that there was no prospect for them here, but Fianna Fáil will pay a bitter price for that kind of inter-Party political competition. I believe that many Fianna Fáil Deputies now know that what I am saying is true and it is too late to regret it.

It is easy to shake the confidence of a people in their own country. It is easy to spread the word amongst young people that if they want to thrive and prosper, there is nothing for them but to get out because there is no prospect for them at home but hard work and little pay. That is the gospel Fianna Fáil preached, in the hope thereby that they would bring down the inter-Party Government but oblivious of the fact that in their attempt to serve that purpose they were tearing down the very foundations of our common country and they have never done this country a greater injury than when they did that.

Fianna Fáil are beginning to feel the draught but what I resent is that we are all beginning to feel the draught. They won the last election on flagrant fraud. Deputy Sherwin paradoxically stated here to-day that he represented all those who did not vote. It sounded funny when Deputy Sherwin said it, but there is a great deal of truth in what he said. Do not let us forget that in the last by-election in the City of Dublin, the Fianna Fáil candidate trailed into this House an elected Deputy, for the first time in my recollection since the State was founded, without a quota at a by-election. Deputy Sherwin is right. He challenged the principal Parties in this House and he beat them both because a large percentage of their traditional supporters would not bother to vote. Does anybody deny that in the Dublin South Central by-election as the principal Party in this country knows right well the bulk of their supporters did not come out to vote. Why?

It was raining.

The Deputy may laugh but there is one man in the Deputy's Party at least who does not laugh and that is his leader, for he knows that what I say is true. The people did not come out to vote because they remembered this. They remembered the last occasion on which they were invited to vote in a by-election and that the then Government Party—that was our Party —made the case that if the Fianna Fáil Party were elected, they would abolish the food subsidies. The voters of this city, the voters of West Mayo and the voters of Waterford remember that Deputy Lemass, as he then was, stated on the eve of the poll:—

"Some Coalition leaders are threatening the country with all sorts of unpleasant things if Fianna Fáil becomes the Government—compulsory tillage, wage control, cuts in Civil Service salaries, higher food prices and a lot more besides.

A Fianna Fáil Government does not intend to do any of these things because we do not believe in them. How definite can we make our denial of these stupid allegations? They are all falsehoods."

Those are the words of the Tánaiste but any man might in the heat of an election speech go a bit further than he meant to go. I will concede that but that did not happen on this occasion.

The Deputy can quote the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice.

Yes. That did not happen on this occasion because this was a preconcerted speech and it was arranged that the Taoiseach would make his version of that speech at Belmullet on the same night as the Tánaiste spoke in Waterford. But let us hear the old performer. He was more circumspect when he came to deal with this tricky job. He had gone down to Belmullet, to the poor West of Ireland, to Mayo, God help us, to speak to his people openly and above board and to tell them what the Chief was going to do, and I understand that they came out with torchlights to illuminate his way. This is what he said:—

"You know the record of Fianna Fáil in the past. You know that we have never done the things they said we would do. They have ... told you that you would be paying more for your bread. They do not say that it was as a result of a legacy in the shape of £62,000,000 deficit in our international balance of payments and a Budget deficit of £50,000,000 from them that bread was increased before."

What is the Deputy quoting from?

I am quoting from a speech made by the Taoiseach at Belmullet.

Is it in the Official Report.

It has been put into the Official Report.

Does the Deputy want to repudiate it?

Is it not the custom when a Deputy quotes or purports to quote, that he gives the reference?

I am quoting from Volume 161, column 1299 of the Official Debates. I know what the Deputy is thinking. He thinks I have only five minutes more and he wants to shut me up but he will not. Deputy Traynor, now the Minister for Justice, took the field.

This was all at Belmullet?

Not at all. It was the Chief who was in Belmullet. He had a long black cloak and he was looking like Father Christmas in mourning in order to preserve the general atmosphere of sanctity that surrounds him.

That does not arise.

I take it sartorial details about the Taoiseach are not in order?

They are very relevant to his performance on occasions. Anyway, Deputy Traynor was sent out and Deputy Mrs. Lynch was also enrolled. I am quoting from column 1300 of the same Volume:—

"Mr. Oscar Traynor at a Fianna Fáil meeting at Doyle's Corner, North Circular Road, described as a ‘bloodcurdling' story a warning by Mr. Norton that a Fianna Fáil Government would withdraw the food subsidies. Mr. Traynor said the Coalition groups having no further promises to make for themselves, had switched to making sinister promises on behalf of Fianna Fáil."

That is precisely what happened.

And Deputy Mrs. Lynch was sent out to say: "A Fianna Fáil Government is the housewives' choice." Then they came in and they put 6d. on the loaf of bread, 7d. on the pound of butter and 3/6 on the stone of flour.

They did it again the week before last.

They did, but without meaning any disrespect to out new colleague and Deputy, they chose him very much as a cat would choose cat's meat three weeks old. I was commenting just before the Minister rambled in that, in my memory, he is the first Deputy who was ever elected to this House in a by-election without reaching the quota.

They preferred him to Fine Gael.

However, I do not want to repeat what I have already said for the benefit of the Minister for Defence. The public have indicated their contempt and loathing for that kind of political fraud. But if the Fianna Fáil Party has injured this country in the eyes of the young they have also injured Parliament in the eyes of our people and I warn Fianna Fáil Deputies that if they continue—we shall try to prevent them continuing— that kind of fraud on our people, Parliament itself will become disreputable in the eyes of Irish voters. The tragedy is that if it does—it threatens us here—it does not matter who is the personnel of this House; but what does matter is that this House is our own—a poor thing it may be, but our own. It represents our people. It is the citadel in this country of the individual liberty of the great and the humble.

So long as we sit here and are free to debate, and to legislate; so long as the Government sits there and is accepted by the people as the unchallenged authority chosen by this House to dispense the power of God in governing our people, so long shall our people be free. But if our people's confidence is undermined in the parliamentary system so painfully built up in this country, our people will suffer and the reputation of this country will stink in the nostrils of the free democracies of the world.

There are more ways than revolution whereby freedom and individual liberty may be destroyed in the nation. One of them is to make the standards of public life disreputable. I charge Fianna Fáil with having done that by making promises to our people that they never meant to keep. I charge them with the basest treason to the institutions of this State when they sank so low as to put up posters in this city calling on the wives of the unemployed to vote for Fianna Fáil so that they would get jobs for their husbands. To trade on the hunger of the afflicted is the basest traffic in which a man can engage and that was the traffic on which Fianna Fáil embarked in the last general election.

If it was in their power to do that, if they were in a position to get those votes and to give to hungry families that for which they must long, then they were right to give the undertaking. But they knew they could not do it and they knew that, by implication, in making the promise, they suggested that the Government they sought to overthrow was indifferent to the sufferings of the unemployed. That was a base and shameful fraud on our people.

I must remind the Deputy that the House has agreed that the Taoiseach shall reply at 10.30 and that time has now arrived.

Very well. He is entitled to that and I shall see that he gets it by sitting down forthwith. I hate the fraud of which Fianna Fáil is guilty. I hate it because it hurts not only themselves and us, but it hurts what ought to be precious to all of us—our good name before the world and our freedom in our own country.

When listening to Deputy Dillon I remembered something that was attributed to Dr. Johnson— that the Irish are a fair people; they never speak well of one another. I feel he must have had a preview, somehow, of Dáil Éireann when the Taoiseach's Estimate is under discussion. In my opinion—and perhaps I can now claim to have experience as long as that of any other—Dáil Éireann in general, as a representative assembly can stand up to any representative assembly in the world.

A Deputy

Not excluding the Mother of Parliaments.

It is a hard thing— as I think the Leader of the Opposition said some time ago—to do what one conceives to be one's duty as a member of the Opposition—to criticise and yet not do public harm. Deputy Dillon and some other members of the Opposition accuse us of doing that. As I sat here to-day I listened to a number of speeches and there was scarcely one of them that was not in one way or another calculated to do considerable public harm.

Democracy, in a sense, is a tender plant and it can very easily be made to wither and die. We are here in one of the free democracies of the world but we must be careful that in the exercise of our freedom we do not destroy democracy itself. That is something that has happened before and we must be careful in our circumstances that we do not presume too much on our rights to criticise and suggest. I could go back if I wished over the record of Fine Gael. I could talk of the election of 1954 and "back to 1952 prices". I could, if I wished, take the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, the speech which I regarded at the time as a disgraceful speech, made on the 1952 Budget.

We tried, when in Opposition, when the difficulties of the balance of payments arose, to help and not to hinder those who were trying to set our external payments account right. We tried to help because we knew the disaster that would follow for the country if a deficit like the 1955 deficit were allowed to continue. We knew it was necessary to take steps to remedy that.

Members of the Opposition are very angry now because the people remembered some of the things they had said, remembered their shortcomings and took action accordingly. They are very angry because they were put out of office at the last general election, not by bargaining of groups, but clearly and fairly by the vote of the people. It is suggested that the people do not care about political issues. I quite agree that our people, like people in other democracies, do not, unfortunately, take the day-to-day interest in political matters that would be desirable for a full understanding of the issues. In that respect, they are not much better or much worse than other peoples. On balance, I would say they are probably better than most other peoples in understanding politics and economic issues.

The people are not such fools as some of the Deputies who have spoken to-day would seem to suggest. They had two terms of the Coalition and they decided that two terms were enough, and that they would not give another Coalition the chance of doing the things they did during their previous terms of office.

Reference has been made to the numbers who voted in the by-election. I for one, wish that more voters had come out.

Hear, hear!

I had urged them to come out but——

They did not.

—but the suggestion was made from the opposite side: "You cannot change the situation; it does not matter now; the Government is strong enough without getting another vote in the Dáil. You cannot change the Government by electing somebody else." The whole suggestion was that it did not really matter who was elected in that election. I do not want that. I have striven on every occasion to get our people to come out and vote. There was a small vote in the by-election, but everybody who has studied the workings of democracy knows that, in general, a by-election does not have the same interest for the ordinary voter that a general election has.

If you want to test and see how our people are interested, whether they have confidence in the policies of the political parties, you must look at the numbers who voted in the general election. Due to the energies of the political parties and their organisations in the last general election, there was a vote of over 70 per cent. of the electorate. Between 70 per cent. and 75 per cent. of the electorate voted. That is not a bad record when you take into consideration various things that can happen during an election. It may happen that in rural areas the weather is of a kind that suits farmers to go out to the bogs, and so it would be very doubtful whether you would get a good vote on such an occasion, but 70 per cent. is not such a bad percentage when you consider there are no penalties. Other democracies try to ensure that voters will come out to vote by putting penalties on them if they do not.

The suggestion that there is something corrupt, something rotten in this country, is wrong, and the Deputy who was most responsible for that suggestion, the one who brought it first into this House, was Deputy Dillon. We went to the election on the basis that a Coalition Government was not the type of Government that could serve this country best. The people had proof of that. Two of these Governments had broken up already. People with different points of view, completely diametrically opposed views, in a Government, will not make that Government work as a team. The people have realised that, and it is because they did realise it that they said that two Coalition Governments were enough. They went out of their way to do something which, with our system, seemed to be almost miraculous, something that certainly could not be counted upon to occur— they gave an over-all majority to a single Party. That Party was not a new Party. It had been tested over the years. We have stood in, and won, more general elections than probably any other single Party in existence in the world to-day.

We went to the people whenever there was a question of policy. We put it to the people, and the people returned us despite all the eloquent misrepresentation of those who opposed us. We took over a hard task when we came into office on this occasion. We took over a difficult task on the previous occasion also. The Opposition ask why we took off the food subsidies in 1952. Why? Because the only alternative was to put on ruinous taxation. That was the reason we had to do it. We had no policy aimed at doing that.

I am accused of misleading the public at Belmullet. I answered charges that we intended to do a number of things which we had not intended to do. It was suggested it was part of our policy to reduce the subsidies. It was not part of our policy to remove the subsidies in the last election any more than it was in the previous one. After the previous election, we had to reduce the subsidies to meet the situation that was handed over to us by the people who were in office before us. We had to meet a deficit on the current account, and we had to deal with a huge deficit in the balance of payments which would have ruined the economy of the country had it been allowed to persist. On a previous occasion, when there was an external deficit of £30,000,000, Deputy Costello, who was Taoiseach at the time, spoke to the people about that alarming deficit and about what it would mean. We had to meet an alarming one of double that amount and we dealt with it. The Coalition Government had to meet a deficit of half that amount but they left it to us to deal with.

The people suffered, no doubt, as a result of the unemployment and the restrictions that followed the efforts to try and deal with that situation, but we did not go out to try and make it appear that such action was not necessary. We did not talk about cruel Budgets, or about doing damage to our people, and we did not compare Budgets to hairshirts, as was said in 1952. We went out to try to build up a sound foundation on which there would be hope for further progress.

There was a very bleak outlook as far as finances were concerned when we took over office some 16 months ago. That situation existed from the budgetary point of view, and from the point of view of industry and employment. Knowing the difficult situation, we set out deliberately to bring about a change. We were hardly more than a week in office when, through the Minister for Local Government, we began to try to ease the situation. We tried to get work going again through the local authorities and, in so far as it was possible, through the State.

We have one fundamental belief, and that is that an increase in lasting employment can only be secured in this country on the basis of sound production. There is, of course, the difficulty that in long-term planning one has also to think of the people who are unemployed. I have often said, in criticising the other Parties when they were in office, that "live horse and you will get grass" was not good enough and, whilst we are trying to plan for the future, we do have regard for those who are suffering at the moment. But there is no use trying to relieve these at the expense of the time to come. Future good has often to be secured on the basis of present abstentions and denials. Like the individual, the community has to deny itself to secure future goods. Sometimes you have to deny yourself present advantages. We have tried to keep a balance between these two.

While we are working on the ultimate basis of sound industry giving permanent employment and helping to increase the standard of living of our people, at the same time we have to have regard to the need of those suffering at the moment. As far as our means would permit, we have gone to their assistance. Even when we were trying to balance the two Budgets, of 1952 and 1957, we had regard to the weaker sections of the community and tried to mitigate, in so far as we could, the effect of the changes in regard to subsidies and so on.

We must have regard for the sufferings of those undergoing hardships at the moment while we are trying to plan for the future. That is the basis that I, for one, have adopted. When I get programmes from economists pointing out that you must do this and you must do that if you want to be ultimately successful, I have always to ask myself "but what about the people at the moment?" We have to keep these in mind just as well as the ultimate good.

It is all right for the economists to say that in the very long future, if you want to be successful, you will have to refrain from using capital resources, or give up to the greatest extent possible—I do not think they will go much further than that—the use of capital resources in developing or producing amenities. You have to beware of devoting too much capital to, say, houses, because sometimes you may be taking away some of the capital necessary for industry and other projects which will be of lasting benefit.

Everyone of us knows that to put people into employment on what is called relief works is costly. These are works providing amenities of various kinds, things that in themselves would no doubt be of advantage to the community and would add either to the beauty or convenience of the community. The annual cost of putting one person into that type of employment used to be about £1,000. That was the cost on the average of putting to work an unemployed person on work of that kind.

What does it cost to export them?

It is all right for Deputies like Deputy McQuillan to have chit-chat without any foundation of a plan of any kind. All these people have bubble plans and bubble organisations. There is no plan and no thought has been given to the questions at issue. Over the years, we have given thought to them. Deputy Norton quoted what I said back in 1928, some 30 years ago, that in this country there was a cure for employment which was not available in any other country at the time. He even read it out. It was true then because we had no industry here at that time.

We have put far more men into permanent employment in industry since that time than were unemployed at the time. I remember the figures well. About 85,000 were unemployed at the time. We made a calculation and showed that in the production of boots, clothing and other things which could be made here, we could give employment to a greater number than the number unemployed. That was true. Over the years, we have put tens of thousands of people into permanent employment, who would otherwise be without employment, by the process of trying to build up industries to supply us with our own needs.

We have been told that we have no policy. We have had a consistent policy over all the years, and the people know it. We set out to give employment to our people as best we could by encouraging the building up of industries here to supply us with our own needs and, in that, to provide employment. We tried to provide in the same way work upon our farms by trying to give the farmers the home market. Our policy was a policy of self-sufficiency to the utmost extent that could be regarded as reasonable. So much so, that we were accused of asking the people to grow tea and oranges.

We wanted the people to grow wheat and they have grown wheat. They have grown wheat to the extent, not merely that they are supplying our own needs, but that they have a surplus. We were successful in our efforts despite everything that could be done by Fine Gael to prevent us, and again by the eloquent Deputy who spoke before me, Deputy Dillon. He did everything he could do to prevent us from getting our farmers to utilise their land to grow for ourselves the food that would supply our people. We have done that. We also did it with sugar beet and in the factories that manufacture sugar for us. We also tried to get our people to grow for themselves the grains that were necessary for animal food.

Therefore, we had a consistent policy of self sufficiency to the extent that was reasonable or possible. It did not go to the extent of trying to grow oranges and tea. But it would go to the extent, if it were carried out systematically, of growing fruit other than oranges. We could grow apples here in such sufficiency that we would not have to import them. There are a number of other things we could grow. We are growing tomatoes. I hope we will grow them to the extent that we will not have to get any from outside. There are a number of other ways like that in which, if we pursue steadily the policy of self-sufficiency, we can, in our opinion, get more employment than in any other way.

It is all the time suggested that all our interest has been in manufacturing industry. That is not so. We were blessed here in this country by having as Minister for Industry and Commerce one of the most energetic Ministers in any Government in the world. And because of his immense success in trying to build up industries here and because also of his care for the workers— and I must say in fairness there is nobody in my acquaintance so genuinely anxious about the interests of the workers as he has been; he worked to build up industry to give them employment and he strove manfully to see that the conditions under which they worked would be the best possible conditions—it is because of his outstanding activities and achievements that the suggestion has been made that we have been neglectful of agriculture. We have not, as I have shown. We have given the farmers the home market. Even this year, there is something like £18,000,000 of State aid for the encouragement and help of agriculture.

There may be a difference of opinion as to whether that money is being spent in the best possible way either from the farming point of view or from the community point of view.

Suggestions have been made that that amount should be increased but the trouble is that, under the circumstances, it is very difficult to add to it because we have not got the abounding expansion in revenue that would enable us to make available increased sums without increased taxation. It has also been suggested that we could put the £18,000,000 to much better use in the interest of the community and in the interest of farming. That matter is being thoroughly examined. We are examining it from the point of farming policy, to see whether there is any better way in which that money can be used.

I have my own views on some of the suggestions that have been put forward. So has every member of the Government. Ultimately we shall have to get down to completing our task in that regard by making up our minds in what way we can best help agriculture by means of aid from the community as a whole.

One thing that is obvious to anybody is the question of getting more production from the land. We all know it is possible to do it and to get an increase of almost 50 per cent., if land were properly treated, if our pastures were properly treated and, generally, if agriculture were practised in accordance with the most modern methods.

We know perfectly well if we want to increase the produce of our soil we shall have to lime it first, that is, where it is necessary. First of all you will have to have soil analysis. We held that all the time. We have been doing everything that is possible to initiate it. We initiated it really and we have been persuading farmers to have a proper soil analysis, to know exactly the constituents that it is required to add to the soil in order to get from it its maximum production.

We know that in general the soil needs lime. We have given ample assistance to bring that to the notice of practically every farmer in the country. There is not a farmer in the country who ought not to know by now —even from looking at what his neighbours are doing—that if his land wants lime and he puts lime upon his land, he will get a very high rate of return, since lime is relatively cheap. In the past, portion of the cost was borne from Marshall Aid moneys. These have disappeared. We have given more from the public purse this year, from Exchequer resources, than was given in the past.

If I had to choose as regards the giving of money, though I know that lime should come first, I would say we have given demonstrations that people ought to know by now the value of applying lime. It is relatively cheap. The expenditure has not to be so great. It can be done step by step by farmers who are not able to deal with the whole of their farm at once. But, having done that, I would rather use the money that is now available for fertilisers.

People talk about policy. If a person says: "I get up in the morning; I put on my shoes; I clothe myself; I eat my breakfast; I have my dinner."—that is a policy according to some people on the opposite benches. Common sense is the best policy.

It is not a secret from one side of the House or the other that, next to lime, come phosphates.

That is why you put a tax of 20 per cent. on it.

We did not.

I took it off.

As far as that is concerned, we wanted to try to produce to the utmost extent at home. As far as phosphates are concerned, the trouble is that, on account of the prices, to give any significant help would involve a very big public burden on the Exchequer.

The farmers who know the value of phosphates, and who can afford to apply them, are getting a good profit. If farmers are assisted from the public purse to buy phosphates some farmers will be helped who do not need to be helped. How are you to select? Probably you have to give a big subvention in order to achieve a big increase in the use of phosphates. If I had the choice I would rather see the money, at the present time, given not for lime—if I had some millions to spare—but for phosphates—and, when we had secured an increase in the use of phosphates, potash and nitrogenous manures would have to be applied.

For any farmer who is interested in getting the most from his soil, there is a definite procedure which he can adopt. Many of them have the capital themselves if they would use it; I do not say that everybody has it. If we could separate those who need public assistance and those who do not, I should like to help those who at the moment have not capital to provide themselves with these manures. We know that, if a proper fertiliser policy is followed, we can increase the produce of this country certainly by 25 per cent. and I think most experts would say that even 50 per cent. was not an exaggeration.

An increase of 50 per cent. in the production from our farms would give tremendous advantage to the economy of this country. It will be asked by some, if we get increased production from our farms, where are we to sell it? They will say: "Will the effect of it not be that we shall have to reduce prices?" That shows at once the great importance of trying to get the best markets possible and to have the best marketing system possible. We were so conscious of that problem that we established a committee, and made available to it a quarter of a million pounds, to study that problem and to try to see where there are any extra markets.

I heard a Deputy to-day say that canned foods can be sent to various areas and that that aspect of the matter is not being investigated. If the committee is doing its business, it must be investigating that possibility. It is up to it to investigate the possibilities of the sale of dairy or other produce in the most remunerative markets we can get.

Some people think that if you increase production and if there is some diminution in the unit price you will work at a loss. That should not happen at all. It does not necessarily follow. If you increase your production sufficiently and if you are able to cut down your costs of production sufficiently, you ought to be able, by your increased production, to sell them at reduced unit costs and yet have a bigger total profit. We have to get our people to realise that but I do admit at once that there is the important question of trying to get markets for our produce. We realise that and we are out to try to get, as best we can, a consistent policy for our agriculture. The basis of that policy will be as before, to supply the home market and to endeavour to secure remunerative markets for any surplus. If we are to get into foreign markets we must see that unit costs of production are reduced, and it is very much better as a national policy that we should try to give inducements and incentives of a kind that will reduce the production costs rather than try to subsidise the final product.

There is nothing wonderful about that. It is a common sense view, but it is very much easier to realise that that is true than to see that it is effectively put into operation because, unfortunately, Governments in democratic countries cannot go out and regiment the population and make the population do what the Government thinks is best in the common interest. They cannot do that, they have to meet the wishes of the individual who is living his free life. I am one who believes that the value of that freedom is so great that it is worthy of being preserved. Consequently, I do not believe in this method of harnessing the people, of putting them under a yoke and compelling them to do what those who are governing regard as being best in the public interest. You may get results by methods like that and we have people here talking, from time to time, in a way that suggests they are thinking in terms of a system of that sort. We do not want that type of system in this country. That would not appeal to the majority of our people who believe in individual freedom and the dignity of the individual.

Those are admirable sentiments.

Consequently we are doing our best, within the system we have to try to get results. It was suggested that at one time I said—as I did say, under the circumstances of the time, and perhaps because I did not know as much about other systems as I do now—that if we did not get certain results within the system we would go outside it. I would be willing now to go outside it if I saw a prospect of getting these results, but I know from experience that you do not get these results. They look fine when they are merely put down on paper as plans but when worked out in detail it is quite a different story and you are driven from one system of coercion to another.

I shall pass on now from agriculture. I think I have made quite clear what the Government is aiming at in regard to agricultural industry. We shall have to do our utmost to get production at the lowest unit cost and to get remunerative markets. That again, will not be done overnight. It has been suggested by the Opposition that we told the electorate we could get things done overnight. I have made more speeches probably than any person here—at least there was a time when I made quite a large number of speeches—and if anyone cares to go over them, he will find in most of them that I laid stress on the fact that these things are not done overnight; that it is the charlatan who pretends you will get them done overnight. I do not think the people are so foolish as to think that you will get these results overnight. You will not get progress in regard to the farming programme overnight. We hope we shall make rapid progress but the farming industry will want to make the most of its opportunity.

In regard to manufacturing industry, is there anybody who doubts what our general plan for it has been? We have given every encouragement by protection. Frequently when talking about protection and the need to shelter national industries until they are strong enough to be able to compete elsewhere, I have pointed out that the trouble was that when they do get strong enough to be able to compete, they will not do it. They are inclined still to be dependent upon the support you are giving them. It takes time again, in that case. Remember that we came in very late in the race of industrial development. Remember also, that the standards which we are supposed to reach in regard to our workers, living standards and so on, are always compared with those in the most progressive nations in the world, from the industrial point of view, the nations that had empires and millions of square miles of territory behind them and many millions of people to provide a home market. We have not had these advantages. We have had to build up from the bottom and it has been a great achievement for this country to have reached the position it has reached.

It is quite true we have taken the cream off and now we are trying to extract, from the remainder, whatever fat there is. There is not the same amount of fat as in the earlier days. If you look over the list of imports, you will see a difference now compared with the position back in 1930 and 1932. There is a very big difference with regard to articles and quantities imported, if we go over the imports and try to pick out which articles we should set out to produce ourselves. We are not an autocratic or totalitarian State in which we can say: "This thing is being imported; let us stop importing it", and then compel the people to produce it. We have to depend in matters of that sort on private enterprise. Whenever an endeavour by private enterprise was forthcoming the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been only too glad to try to assist production.

We have found it desirable to get from outside people with technical knowledge, particularly if, at the same time, the technical knowledge was accompanied by capital and it was not merely a question of a subordinate group from some other factory. It is our aim to get capital into this country particularly if that capital is accompanied by technical knowledge, knowledge of markets, with connections already made, and so on. Again, you cannot get that simply by a wave of the hand or by a fiat. These things are done slowly and all the evidence is that our people are beginning to make progress in this particular line. Although the task is more difficult, we are getting enterprises of that sort, both to produce the things we have to get from outside and to produce for the export market. It is very desirable that we should get into the export market because, as I said to-day, we are rather anxious to balance our external accounts at a high level and not at a low level. We want to balance our economy at a high level.

As far as the finances of the State are concerned, I think the finances are sound. I agree with those who said it is unfortunate that we cannot reduce taxation. I agree that if we could reduce taxation it would be of the greatest help to our economy, but we cannot reduce taxation if we are to maintain the services. You can cut out some services here and there which will save small amounts, but you cannot have such a substantial cutting off as would enable you to reduce taxation to any significant extent. At least I agree with Deputy Costello in this, that it is by increased production and by expanding the total yield that we can reduce the burden of taxation. Looking at the causes of the growth of taxation, the capital we have to borrow and the interest charges on that, all these help to add to the yearly amount that has to be met. Therefore, I cannot say that I can see immediately, much as I would desire it, a hope for the reduction of taxation. Of course, I have not got in my pocket the £20,000,000 that were so freely available on the other side of the House. If any Minister for Finance, who knew his business, could lay his hands on that, it would be easy enough to deal with the reduction of taxation. Unfortunately, that does not exist. It never existed. It was known not to exist. Unfortunately, there is no use talking in terms like that.

I have dealt sufficiently with the economic side. We are for the present moment in a most dangerous world situation and I pray and hope that the dangerous possibilities may not eventuate and may not occur. If some of the things, that could happen do arise, we would be talking about different things than those about which we are talking here at the moment. However, let us pray the thing will not happen.

About ourselves, one other topic was referred to here. Again, I regret the terms in which it was mentioned. The question of Partition was mentioned. There is no doubt that Partition is an injustice to a large section of the Irish people, if not to the whole nation. I issued a challenge many years ago, not to-day or yesterday, when this question was up before, that anybody who would get the solution would be regarded as one of the greatest men in Irish history. We were working very quietly and in my opinion we were making some progress towards getting a solution of that. I do not want to talk about what might have been and so on, but I do say that the fact that a solution has not been got by the methods that have been tried is not an excuse for the attempts that are being made to use force.

If there were to be an attempt to solve the problem by force, that attempt could be made only by the Irish nation and by those who are authorised to act on behalf of the Irish nation. If force were to be used it would have to be used with the authority of this House. I do not think it would be the right method in any case. As far back as 1921, the Republican Government of that time, in one of their communications to the British Government, pointed out that, in trying to get a solution, we did not contemplate the use of force because we believed that, even if force were successful, it would not give us the unity we desired.

We want something more co-operative than some of the speeches we have heard this afternoon if we are to save our people serious losses in various ways. As regards the question of authority, there is no doubt whatsoever where the authority in this State lies. We are here freely elected by the majority of the people of this country. If anybody is entitled to speak on behalf of the Irish nation it is this House. Nobody else can authorise himself to speak for the Irish nation.

They talk about past history. They choose to misread past history. They choose to forget the fundamental factors of the situation as it was when force was used here before. There is no authority for the use of force outside side the authority that is derived from this House. There can be but one Government and one Army in this country if it is going to last. We, as a responsible Government, have got to do everything in our power to see that fact is realised. We do want support —the support of public opinion—and remember those who might have any secret sympathies with those young men are doing a bad day's work for them if they encourage them in any way. If these young men are brought up against the State, the full authority and power of the State will have to be used in order to vindicate the authority of the State.

We have done nothing but what was absolutely necessary, and despite the things that have been done, we still have recurrences of these incidents which result in the loss of life. Even when we, away back in 1922, took up a position that authority at that time was usurped by those who got into power, we still believed and held it as a basic theory that we had not the right to take life. Human life is a sacred thing. What we, as a Government, ask is that those who made appeals when they were in office will support us now similarly, as we did them. We did not need to be pushed.

I spoke at the Ard Fheis before anybody in the Government spoke because I realised the importance for our nation that there should be no countenance given to these young men, and that every countenance given to one act would mean that other young people, fresh from school, would be put in danger. A lot of those people were actually recruited in the schools for this organisation. Everybody who gives support is helping to put other lives in danger and helping to endanger the country as a whole.

Some Deputies said that these people are not threatening this Government. They are not threatening it for the moment. Who will suggest that if they were allowed to organise they would not threaten it? When Captain Cowan was here many years ago and started an army, I made a speech on that occasion. I have not looked at it since but I am perfectly satisfied it would bear examination as regards the fundamentals to which I refer.

This is a serious matter for the nation. We know there is an evil. We must do everything in our power to get rid of that evil if we can but we must not, because we are exasperated, go and do things which in themselves are futile and worse than futile. We will have to vindicate the authority of the people. That is what this Government is here for, to preserve the rights of the people. We will not preserve those rights, and would not, if we were to allow to be built up round about us an organisation that would be in a position in which they could threaten that authority.

Now I ask the Deputies to realise what they are doing, whether they are in one way or another helping these people by saying to the Government, as was said unfortunately by the Leader of the Opposition on a previous occasion, that we could proceed in this way simply by ordinary law. He knows or should know that ordinary law, when juries can be threatened, is not sufficient. We may have to come to this House and look for further powers, if these things are going to continue, in order to see that we would not be committed to war by people who have no authority and no right to commit us to war. We must not be dragged into violence by the action of people who take on themselves to act for the nation.

I do ask again people in this House to remember their responsibility and I would appeal to all sections of the people outside who did help in previous times when they were appealed to by the previous Government. We have not used these appeals any more than we did on a previous occasion. We have not used appeals to the same extent but we do want the same co-operation. And let our people remember they are playing with fire. They should not behave in an irresponsible way particularly if they are members of this House. They should not behave in an irresponsible way in dealing with organisations of this sort.

I have been told the time is up and I will therefore say that I am in no way despondent about the future of our country. I believe our sun is but risen when others are setting. That is the attitude we should adopt about our affairs. Great sacrifices were made for our freedom here and these sacrifices would never have been made unless there were men of faith who believed in the nation. We have always shown, in our Party anyway, that we believed in the nation and in its future. We have striven in certain directions and if we have not yet reached our goal we will go on in the conviction that that goal will be reached.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 53; Níl, 70.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James.
  • Byrne, Tom.
  • Carew, John.
  • Carroll, James.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Daniel.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Esmonde, Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hogan, Bridget.
  • Hughes, Joseph.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Lindsay, Patrick.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, John.

Níl

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neal T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Thomas A.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Eamon.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Griffin, James.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kenneally, William.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Sheldon, William A. W.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies O'Sullivan and Kyne; Níil: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman.
Motion declared lost.
Original motion put and agreed to.
Barr
Roinn