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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Mar 1959

Vol. 173 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When progress was reported, I was dealing with a very undesirable feature of public life in this country, a feature which came to my notice only a few short months ago, that some people who are particularly favoured by the Government and have received immense benefits—I do not think the term "immense benefits" is an exaggeration—are closely associated with the Fianna Fáil Party or Fianna Fáil circles. That is a situation which should never arise.

When I read, for instance, the statement made by Deputy Dr. Browne on the personnel—what I may call the governing body—of Irish Press, Ltd., and I found the Taoiseach made a pronouncement that these people are giving their valuable services free to the board of directors of the Irish Press, I felt great resentment in view of the fact that some of the people so mentioned have benefited immensely— if I may use the term again—as a result of Government policy, and as a result of the tariffs provided by the Fianna Fáil Party to bolster and help their industries.

On a point of order, is it permissible to make a charge against private persons who are not here to reply to it, a grave charge such as that now being made?

Is not one of the names mentioned by the Taoiseach——

The Deputy is only aggravating the offence by proceeding any further.

I do not regard it as an offence. It is a statement of fact. I am only repeating the Taoiseach's statement and facts that are well known to every member of the House. I am not misquoting.

It is not relevant to the matter before the House.

If the Deputy wishes to draw attention to a matter of that kind he can do so by a substantive motion. This is not the occasion on which to refer to it. It is unfair to the people concerned and unfair to the House.

My remarks are more or less of a general nature. I shall not deal any further with the reprehensible conduct on the part of some Government Ministers in giving preferential treatment to some of their friends.

Summing up my remarks, what do we find in this Vote on Account two years after the Fianna Fáil Party came back to power and some four years subsequent to the painting of that lovely picture by the potential Taoiseach in Clery's Restaurant? That was the occasion when he announced to all and sundry, that the day for the 100,000 extra jobs was at hand, and that Fianna Fáil, when they shortly returned to power, would have £100,000,000 to implement that promise, the day when we would be able to make, as I have mentioned, a little heaven of this country, with no such thing as unemployment or emigration, provided, of course, that Fianna Fáil were returned as a stable Government. It would not do if they were returned as a minority group, even in the smallest degree, because they do not associate with other groups. They do not recognise them in this House and they have no regard for their co-operation and intentions; they must do the job themselves.

Fianna Fáil got that stable Government in no small way, due to dishonest announcements. I do not wish to refer to that any further, but, as a result, they have a commanding majority in the House and whatever plans they make can be implemented. What benefit is there in that for the people I represent in West Cork? What benefit is it to the progress of the workers dependent on local authority employment for their living? Surely the only outcome of Fianna Fáil policy for the past two years, as the result of the change of Government, is a big reduction in the number of such people employed? An air of despondency is apparent in towns and villages in my constituency, greater than ever existed before. There is a feeling that there is no money available for business. Shopkeepers are standing inside their counters and few are calling on them. Very little money is passing through the hands of the shopkeeper, and the small shopkeeper has been practically wiped out. That is the picture in Dunmanway, Bantry, Skibbereen, Castletownbere, Clonakilty and other towns to-day. That is the picture which has been painted by such newspapers as the Independent and the Cork Examiner recently, two reliable journals. It is a statement of fact. These people are naturally despondent.

What is the position in the rural areas, comprised mainly of self-employed people, small farmers and others? They thought they would get some benefit from the Milk Costings Commission, but instead they are being robbed to the extent of almost a penny a gallon in the price of milk. What have we got in the line of money to develop industries in the congested areas? There is no sign of any help from the Government. No industrial employment, good, bad, or indifferent, has been given in my constituency and I think the same picture could be painted of a great portion of the West of Ireland. Surely then the people have nothing to be grateful to Fianna Fáil for. They have nothing to be grateful for in the stability of Government which they got, and the only hope left to them is that these forthcoming elections will be unfavourable to the Fianna Fáil Party, and I mean both elections.

Fianna Fáil have been in office long enough and, as a result, there is hope throughout the country that the people will get new confidence, and that we are in the immediate vicinity of a change of Government, a change to the type of Government we had from 1948 to 1951 and from 1954 to 1957, a Government representative of all sections of the people, of different groups, pooling their energies together to formulate a policy which will be of benefit to all sections of the people. It is only from such a Government that we, in West Cork, got a ray of hope before. It was only by the efforts of Deputy Norton, as Minister for Industry and Commerce, with the co-operation of his colleagues in the inter-Party Government, that we succeeded in getting one industry in West Cork. The inter-Party Government were responsible for developing the Allihies copper mine and, judging from accounts published recently, that mine may be in full production in the not too distant future.

I do not blame any of the Deputies now sitting on the benches opposite. They have no more to do with it than any person you would see outside in Molesworth Street. The present Government is dictatorship by the Taoiseach, and what he formulates and thinks in his mind, his Party must accede to. That was demonstrated clearly when he said they must abolish P.R. None of them thought about that before, and the same applies to the formulation of all Government policy. The Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are not conversant with the position obtaining in rural Ireland, with the difficulties confronting workers, small shopkeepers, farmers and others. They are out of touch with the conditions obtaining, and they are not anxious or willing to accept good advice from some of their back benchers, who are in closer touch with conditions throughout the country.

That is the position in which we find ourselves to-day, and I conclude by vehemently protesting against the policy of the Government. They are completely ignoring the dire position obtaining in most of the congested districts, and they are neglecting to provide more money for development in these areas. They are not providing enough money to help our people and make life brighter for a greater number of them. However, at the moment the position is at a standstill. We cannot make any further comments until after the outcome of the two elections which face us, and possibly as a result of these elections, with a defeat in both of them for the Government, we shall have some different comments to make in this House within the next 12 months, because the Government may be composed of different people.

The Vote on Account affords the House an opportunity of surveying the general economic picture of the country, and of examining the situation in general. This Book of Estimates shows that expenditure for the current year, on both capital services and other services, totals £115.5 millions. Last year, it was £109.9 millions and in 1957-58, during the term of office of the previous Government, £112.5 millions. When the previous Government were spending that amount of money on capital and current services, they were criticised on the ground that they were squandering the nation's resources, and depleting the availability of capital for various capital schemes.

When this Government were elected, they withdrew the subsidies on bread, flour and butter and, as a result of those reductions, saved £6.9 millions on bread and flour, and £2.5 millions on butter, making a total of £9.4 millions. Allowing for compensatory benefits, which amounted to about £2,000,000, there was a net saving of £7,000,000. Now we find, less than two years after that money was saved, that the Estimates presented to this House are higher than they were during the term of office of the previous Government, when a total of £9.4 millions was provided for subsidising bread, flour and butter.

We are entitled to ask what is the justification for this increased expenditure? What improvements have been effected and what has happened to the money saved from the subsidies. It appears to have been spent. We find that as a result of the decision to withdraw these subsidies, the cost of essentials increased and the Government recognised that at the time, and granted an increase of 1/- a week to old age pensioners, widows and orphans and blind pensioners.

The Government at that time also expressed the view that other sections of the community should not ask compensation for the increased cost of living. It was stated that if it was in the national interest to save this money, the other sections, except the very weakest, should accept it as a contribution towards the financial requirements of the State. However, in a few months, various claims were submitted by different categories of workers, employees of public undertakings such as C.I.E., the E.S.B. and so forth, as well as those employed by private firms. A little later increases were granted to civil servants, the Guards, the Army and other State personnel, and the general pattern which was subsequently negotiated by representatives of trade unions and the Federated Union of Employers provided for a wage increase of 10/- a week to meet the increased cost of living, the increased cost of food, which was a result of the decision to withdraw the subsidies.

Now the effect of all that is being felt by the national Exchequer. Quite recently, the Minister had to introduce a Supplementary Estimate for portion of the year in respect of remuneration for public employees, and quite rightly their interests were safeguarded by granting them an increase in wages and salaries. Similarly, employees in public undertakings got compensation, but C.I.E. were unable to meet that commitment from their own revenue and they had to pass it on to the public who were obliged to pay increased bus fares in order to meet that increased demand.

Similarly in the case of different local authorities, especially health authorities who, faced with the increased cost of food and the increased cost of maintenance, had to charge more. The result is that there is not only a direct increase in the health charges from 6/- a day to 10/-, but, in addition, as a result of the increased health charges and the increased outgoings by the public health authorities, this in turn meant that rates must be increased as a result of those transferred burdens.

While that is true of those categories which were catered for directly by the State, or who were in a position to negotiate and secure increased emoluments to meet the rise in the cost of living, a very large section of the community received no other benefit at all. Retired persons, persons living on pensions other than the old age pension, the widows' and orphans' pensions and those I have mentioned, received no increase, although they had to pay more for bread, flour, butter and other commodities. In addition, people living on fixed incomes got no increase. People who were in receipt of income from investments or from any other source which remained static, received no increase in their emoluments. The effect of all this has been that, as a result of the Government's policy, the consumer price index for food increased between 1957 and 1958 from 109.2 to 118.6 and the consumer price index generally increased from 140 for 1957 to 146 for 1958.

While that occurred in respect of direct Government action, the import price index went down from 111.9 in 1957 to 107.0 in 1958. Some of those figures from the Economic Series are provisional and may have to be corrected later. While that occurred, the Government paid less to our own farmers for wheat, but charged more to our own consumers for bread and flour. For milk supplied to creameries, they paid less, while at the same time, the price charged for butter increased from 3/9 to 4/2 and subsequently to 4/4 per lb. On two occasions, the Government either saved entirely in the case of the last withdrawal of the subsidies, or as on a previous occasion, when the subsidies were reduced. On both occasions, the effect on the Exchequer has been completely nullified because of increased demands and increased expenditure directly by the State and indirectly by the other bodies I have mentioned. This has resulted in increased burdens, because of increased transport charges, increased health charges for hospital accommodation, increased maintenance charges in respect of those institutions and increased outlay directly on food as well as on the other items included in the consumer price index.

Therefore, having failed to implement the policy they set out to implement and having apparently realised that that policy, for which they secured a mandate at the last election, was incapable of providing a remedy, they directed the Secretary of the Department of Finance, in collaboration with the officials of other Departments, to prepare and publish, in a White Paper entitled "A Programme for Economic Expansion" and in the other publication "Economic Development", a list of the various plans and schemes—which, in the main, were initiated by the previous Government and which they recognised had achieved satisfactory results.

When considering this, it is well to see what was accomplished by it. The export figures for different years were given recently here, in reply to a parliamentary question. For 1931, they totalled £36.3 millions. For 1947, after 15 or 16 years of Fianna Fáil administration, they had gone up by just over £3,000,000 to £39.5 millions. But in 1957, after two periods of the inter-Party Government, which initiated a programme of capital development, which initiated the Trade Agreement of 1948, exports were valued, for 1957, at £131,000,000.

This White Paper, and the grey book, recognises the value to the economy of increased cattle numbers. It is interesting to see that, in 1931, we had 4.4 million head of cattle. In 1947, it was down to 3.9 million and in 1957, after the policy which was initiated had borne fruit, the number had increased again to 4.5 million. In the case of sheep, again there was a drop and subsequently a rise. The case of pigs was even more dramatic. In 1931, there were 1.2 million; in 1947, there were 456,900; and in 1957, the figure was back to 1,000,000. I quote these figures because they demonstrate what could be accomplished by an economic programme which was implemented in practice and which achieved important economic returns in respect of increased numbers of live stock, increased exports and increased trade.

When that policy was being operated, it was criticised by the members of the Government, who were then in opposition. While a change of place has probably meant a change in outlook, one doubts if the Government will be capable of implementing a policy which they previously criticised. As other Deputies have said, it is not sufficient merely to have a policy set out in a White Paper or a grey paper or a blue paper. One of the temptations to which a number of representatives of outside bodies have probably succumbed, having read this programme and having read the book on "Economic Development", is to make speeches, as speeches have been made by presidents of federations, chairmen or presidents of chambers of commerce, all lauding that programme as though it were something new.

It is only reasonable that none of those people, or few of them, could be expected to be familiar with the various details of Government policy or of national policy. When they see it presented in simple tabulated form, they welcome it as something they can read, examine and discuss. The fact is that, with few variations, this is the programme implemented by the inter-Party Government and this is the programme that achieved substantial results. But, however effective it was, remember it was criticised by Fianna Fáil when they were in opposition, and it was criticised by others as not having achieved the success necessary to produce a sufficient increase in employment or to reduce emigration.

Yesterday, the Minister for Health had the temerity to allege here that emigration had been reduced and conditions had improved. Whatever figures are available, I do not think it is fair for anyone to claim as a result of those figures that there has been any worthwhile change in the pattern. The recent Third Report of the Capital Investment Advisory Committee comments on the fact that the average annual number of emigrants in the last eight years, or so, has been about 40,000. The report goes on to say:—"These figures indicate the problems which beset this country." That period includes terms in office by both Governments, the Fianna Fáil and the inter-Party. Some few months ago, a figure was given by the British Minister of Labour in the House of Commons as to the numbers seeking employment. Between 1st January, 1958, and 31st October, 1958, 48,000 odd new employment permits were issued in Britain to Irish people seeking work there. The most recent indices indicate therefore that last year something around 50,000 emigrants sought employment.

We come then to the figure for those unemployed. There has been some slight reduction as compared with a couple of years ago, but, if one takes into account the increased employment as a result of the oil refinery in Cork, the Avoca mines project, the briquet-ting factories and other projects initiated by the previous Government, there is really very little change—very little change more especially when we consider the figures published in the Quarterly Industrial Review for December, 1958. The figures show that for the four quarters in 1958 the average for the total numbers engaged in manufacturing industries was 142,435 as compared with 145,159 for the four quarters of 1956. These figures prove that there has been little or no change. In fact, in respect of manufacturing industries, a few thousand fewer are employed as compared with two years ago. Emigration has undoubtedly brought about a reduction in the numbers on the unemployment register. The small increase in the numbers employed has reduced it still further, but, in effect, what the Capital Investment Advisory Committee found to be the position is still true. Large numbers are emigrating. The average number of persons unemployed between 1949 and 1957 was over 60,000.

As I say, the problem is there irrespective of what Government is in office, and both Governments have had the responsibility of endeavouring to provide a remedy for it. When we examine the matter at home, we have to take into account that under existing conditions in Britain employment opportunities are fewer now than they were a couple of years ago. The unemployment problem there has been giving more trouble in the past 12 to 18 months than it did previously and it is, therefore, more difficult probably for people from this country to secure employment there than it was previously.

One of the most dangerous illusions that can be created, and it is one that was created by the Government when in opposition and by others outside the House, is that Government action alone or Government policy can create employment. Neither Government action nor Government policy, no matter how energetically pursued, can, of itself, create employment. In the main, this is a private enterprise economy and, with the exception of certain State undertakings which cover certain sectors of our economy, certain categories of work or certain schemes which it is impossible for private enterprise to undertake or in relation to which private enterprise is unwilling to accept responsibility, any expansion in employment, any increase in the numbers of jobs provided depends ultimately on the creation of successful conditions for an expansion in the private sector of our economy. There are, of course, certain exceptions. There is the E.S.B., the Sugar Company, Bord na Móna, Aer Lingus and so forth. Leaving all these aside, any increase in employment depends on the successful expansion of private enterprise. With the exception of certain State schemes and local authority schemes in relation to housing and drainage, or other public undertakings, increased employment depends on an expansion in private enterprise, industrially as well as agriculturally.

One of the essential prerequisites of improved economic conditions is stability. Stability can be created by the assurance of guaranteed prices and by the assurance that economic conditions will remain unchanged, thereby ensuring a market for the goods or commodities produced or manufactured. A significant fact in that regard is to be found in agriculture. Leaving aside the question as to whether or not the price is sufficient, the fact is that because of guaranteed prices for milk and wheat, production increased.

So far as general stability in prices is concerned, the Government can do only a certain amount and can only create certain conditions by the application of a sound policy. One of the things which has caused a good deal of dislocation has been the rapid change on various occasions in the banks' approach to the question of credit. For two years practically, we have had a restrictive and conservative policy. Four or five years ago, the same policy developed. After a time, credit was made more freely available, but, as I say, within the past 12 or 18 months or two years, restrictions were operating again. Now we have the announcement that credit is freely available again. While it is desired that adequate credit should be available, these dramatic changes, and these repeated alterations between a restrictive policy and a policy of easy credit, create difficult situations.

One of the problems which they created before was increased imports. It is quite obvious that while it is not always possible to ensure that money will be spent in the way in which it is most productive, or most desirable, on projects which will be approved, nevertheless, the imports for the month of January showed a substantial increase in the trade figures. While it is admitted that a good deal of this credit is being granted for specific purposes such as the increased use of fertilisers or the purchase of foundation stock for increasing our live stock, in respect of cattle, nevertheless one of the results of that policy will be an increase in the import of non-essential or less essential commodities.

I believe it is important that the banks, in consultation with the Central Bank and the Government, either through the Department of Finance or whatever other Departments are appropriate, should endeavour to secure a greater measure of stability, a greater degree of uniformity in the granting of credit, rather than, on the one hand imposing severe restrictions beyond what is requisite, and on the other hand, the easy granting of credit, in many cases resulting in the importation of goods and the expenditure of money on commodities that are either non-essential or less essential.

There has been a good deal of talk by this Government in the past on the need for spending money on productive work. This White Paper and the talk of economic development indicate their recognition that the programme which was being carried out by the inter-Party Government was sound. If it is proposed to concentrate on worthwhile projects in the future it is to be welcomed.

One of the items of heavy Government expenditure which is less productive—which in fact is non-productive —is large expenditure on roads. While it is necessary that we should have reasonably good road facilities, expenditure on roads is unproductive and, for the size of the country, too much money is being spent. With the rapid development of machinery and heavy equipment in the last ten or 12 years, the employment content in road-making is far less than it was, so, from any angle, there is no compensatory economic advantage in heavy road expenditure. It does not provide employment commensurate with the investment because of the increased use of machinery. While it is essential to have reasonably good roads it does not directly, but only remotely, give aid to production.

I should prefer to see increased expenditure on land reclamation or on drainage. In that connection one of the worthwhile schemes which was stopped by the Government was the work proceeding under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. I do not deny—I do not think anyone on either side of the House would deny—that some of the money on some of those schemes may have been spent unwisely. In any scheme which involves public expenditure, some money is bound, in the nature of things—I do not mean that money was squandered by anyone—to be wasted because public expenditure is often more wasteful than expenditure by private enterprise or by individuals; but compared with expenditure on roads, money spent on drainage either on arterial drainage or schemes under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, acts as an incentive to production and is an essential requirement for increased production from the land.

One criticism that is sometimes made is that expenditure on the Dáil, on missions abroad, and so on, should be curtailed. I have no doubt it would be possible to work with a somewhat smaller Dáil, just as it would be possible to arrange in some cases for less expensive missions abroad, but it is wrong for anyone to create the impression that if we save a few thousand pounds on either somewhat fewer Deputies, or somewhat fewer missions abroad, that would solve our problems. In fact, I often think that those who make these suggestions are really covering up for their lack of a positive constructive programme, or a positive constructive suggestion, to deal with the economic difficulties of the country.

Undoubtedly, taking it by and large, there could be some reduction in our expenditure under those headings, but compared with the total national expenditure it is infinitesimal and would mean that, under no heading, would sufficient money be made available for any worthwhile scheme, and merely to offer these suggestions as they are offered sometimes by people who either have nothing better to suggest or who have not thought sufficiently about them, is wrong. Deputies on both sides of the House recognise that some saving might be made, but these suggestions will not solve, and do not provide a remedy for, our various problems. No one could imagine that any such reduction or changes could help in the solving of our problems.

The policy of the Government, having failed, as I believe, in respect of reducing expenditure, and despite the food subsidies, and the temporary saving effected by their abolition, merely had the effect of bringing about a further increase in the cost of living and once again generated demands for increased wages and salaries. The Government have now abandoned their own policy and, as a result of the exertions of the Secretary of the Department of Finance and other officials in collaboration with him, they have catalogued the various schemes which were either in operation, or initiated by the previous Government, and they are now published and adopted as this Government's policy. It is said that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery and, while we may be impressed by the Government's conversion to our policy, we doubt their capacity and ability to work a policy which they previously condemned.

It is quite wrong to imagine that any Government can, by itself, solve these problems, but what is wrong is that this Government, when they were in opposition, created the illusion that if there was a change of Government, the various problems and difficulties would be surmounted. They claimed that all that was necessary was a change of Government and that action would follow.

In the Budget of 1957, the Government provided a sum of £250,000 for market research and, after some time had elapsed, a committee was set up to inquire into it. I understand that that committee has furnished two reports, but so far these reports have not been published. It is difficult to understand the delay in publishing them, as the Government expressed so much concern about market research and the need for guidance for producers. It is important that the reports should be published quickly, and it would be quite wrong to create the same lack of confidence in this Marketing Committee as the Government were responsible for creating in respect of the Milk Costings Commission. I hope that these reports and this committee will not suffer the same fate as the Milk Costings Commission.

Undoubtedly, there is no confidence in the Government. The people have no belief in their capacity to deal with, and solve, the problems which confront the country, and one of the reasons for the lack of confidence is that, in the past, we had too much politics and too little statesmanship, plenty of impressive talk, and little action to remedy the economic problems. If recent events indicate anything, they indicate that political considerations are still dominant and that, instead of concerted Government policy being implemented by people capable of understanding requirements, capable of implementing a policy they believe in, this Government, as an excuse for their own failure have merely set out the various schemes that were initiated by the previous Government and hope, because that policy found general satisfaction throughout the country, it will solve the difficulties.

It may be, if that policy is implemented energetically, if it is implemented in the spirit in which it was initially undertaken, that all sections of the community and all sections in this House combining can secure the desired results from its being carried out in a constructive fashion, and consistently applied over a period of years. One of the deterrents to improved economic conditions is the sharp fluctuation, whether in economic conditions, in terms of trade, supply, or in market conditions. This programme recognises that the policy which was being operated was a realistic one, that it was based on the knowledge that improved trade could come only from increased production, that, in modern conditions, we had to produce and sell abroad, and all the nonsense talked in the past about economic self-sufficiency has been proved, by both events and time, to be clearly an illusion and that, in fact, the only policy is one that will develop bilateral and multilateral trading on an increased scale.

Finally, I want to mention the matter referred to yesterday in a parliamentary question—the fact that the Government have decided not to acquire an atomic reactor. I believe it is a mistake in present circumstances, when we have rapid developments taking place in scientific matters, when so many of our trained personnel, scientists, engineers and others, are looking for employment both here and abroad, that they should not have adequate opportunities of studying and working in the sphere of atomic energy. It is undoubtedly true that very substantial changes and developments are taking place in that regard, but the fact that these changes are taking place is no reason why we should isolate ourselves from the opportunities presented by the offer of this reactor.

These changes will continue to take place and the fact that they will take place is all the more reason why we should afford our engineers and scientists an opportunity of gaining the experience, knowledge and technical know-how which is essential in modern conditions for progress. For that reason, I hope the Government will reconsider that decision, and, while cost may be an influence operating as a deterrent, its acquisition at the present time, as compared with expenditure in other directions, could be a worthwhile investment.

Listening to the debate, since the Minister introduced the Vote on Account yesterday, I must say I have been depressed by the number of speakers on the opposite side who still seem to believe that the return to power of Fianna Fáil in 1957 was due to promises made in the election of that year.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present.

As I was saying, I was amazed at the number of people on the opposite side who contributed to this debate as if they still believed that the principal reason for the return of Fianna Fáil to power as a Government, in 1957, was promises made by members of the Fianna Fáil Party during the general election in that year. If they would take my view, junior as I am in this House, they would realise that that argument is completely played out. I think that neither side of the House can make a point as regards the breaking of promises, whether well-meaning or ill-meaning. I remember, during a previous election in my constituency, the people were asked to vote Fine Gael for better times, and I think that slogan boomeranged on them during the next few years.

I do not say that many promises have been made by Fianna Fáil speakers which, in the course of time, were not possible of fulfilment, but I think we should at least make it clear to the intelligence of the people of the country—and they realise this— that they were not completely swayed by promises from any platform or any Party, and that is not the fundamental reason why changes of Government took place at one time or another. If you are seeking a reason why people voted Fianna Fáil in 1957, you must look for something besides promises. I think there is little doubt that the reason was that they had completely lost whatever confidence they had in the inter-Party Government.

Deputy Murphy said earlier this afternoon that it was a pity the inter-Party policy and programme were interrupted in 1957. It is a fair question to ask: "Who interrupted it?" It was the Taoiseach of the time who went to the people and it was the people who decided they had enough of that form of Government. The charge should not be laid at the door of Fianna Fáil, that it was they and they only who changed the policy of the inter-Party Government at that time. It was the people who changed it.

I remember also that in the winter of 1956, in my own constituency, there was a spirit of despondency and despair which I do not think was ever there before that time. That despondency was general throughout the country and, as a Corkman, I think it must have been general when it came as far as Cork, because it is not in the nature of our people there to be despondent before others. I remember people selling houses, whole families going away together, as if there were no future in this country for them. I also know that there is a complete change of tune there now. Everyone in the House knows the reason for that. I do not claim that the Fianna Fáil Party or this Government are responsible for everything, but there is an air of confidence abroad amongst the business community which was not there two years ago.

I did not think that the condition of affairs when Fianna Fáil came into office could be changed in two years. When they came in, the cupboard was bare; there is no doubt about that. Whatever Deputies opposite may say about millions having been left to Fianna Fáil, that was not the case at all. The cupboard was bare, and very bare. Two years is a short period in which to rectify everything, but I say there has been a change of mentality, a change for the better, in those two years. The biggest problems we have to face, those of emigration and unemployment, are peculiar to no Government and they have been there, whatever Government came into office.

I should like to take this opportunity of saying that we should, all of us, recast our whole viewpoint on the problem of emigration. It always seems strange to me, as a city man, that a farm labourer in an agricultural country should be expected to work for a mere pittance. His hours are much longer than those of his colleague in the city, his knowledge of his work has to be at least as detailed and he is a most important unit in the economy of the country. He has to be a good farmer and a good "vet"; he has to get up in the middle of the night, if a cow is calving. He is called out at all times, with few holidays, if any—and with all that he gets a miserable pittance as remuneration. What would happen if that man were fortunate enough to be able to send his daughter to a city to get a business education? After two or three years, she could get into an insurance office, and earn five or six times, certainly three or four times, as much as her father earned. In an agricultural country, that is an extraordinary phenomenon—that a girl in an insurance office could earn three times as much as a man engaged in our primary industry.

That position has been rectified to some extent and the scales are more evenly weighted now, but until such time as the farm labourer is as well off, or thinks he is, as his colleague in the city, there will be people fleeing from West Cork and the western seaboard, to wherever they think life will be easier. If one wants to know the reason for that, one will find that one of the reasons is education. When a man is uneducated and unfitted for anything else, he will stay where he is; but if he is given facilities to educate himself and his children, he will not be satisfied to live in conditions which he would not have to suffer anywhere else in the country, or for that matter anywhere else in the world. We have to face the fact that we are no longer an isolated island on the coast of Europe, cut off, so to speak. When I was a small boy, it took a worker as long to go down to Haulbowline to work for the British in the naval dockyard there as it takes now for a worker to go to Dagenham or places of that sort. The immediate attraction is the high wages.

I am sorry to say that I do not think the time will ever come when we will be able to contain all our population. That is a viewpoint I am sorry I have to express, as naturally no one likes to see any people going away just because they cannot get decent living conditions at home. However, I think there is a section of our young people who will always go, not because of necessity, but because they feel they can better themselves, materially and otherwise, away from this country. Therefore, if we want to address ourselves to that problem of keeping people at home, those in responsible positions should put before the people, at every possible opportunity, the advantages of working here at home. The manifold advantages may not be obvious materially, nevertheless, the advantages of living here are that we have a very decent standard of living and there is a future, if we can get the people to realise how they can work for a decent economic future.

Therefore, instead of standing up, for one reason or another, and decrying everything every Party and every Government do, it behoves us to speak with words of encouragement to the people and to assure them that, while they might be lured away by the bright lights of other countries and might be a little better off, it is nothing but tinsel in the end compared with the fundamental values they have at home. In that way, we would do something to keep our people at home.

Finally, the Government came in under difficult conditions. They have been two years in office. I can speak for my own constituency and say that, in that time, a completely different outlook has been created from that which was there. Any businessman could regard the stock market of any country as a barometer of a kind for certain sections. That barometer has risen many points in the past two years. That is an indication of confidence. The White Paper has been received by employers' associations, commercial associations and workers' associations and it has been welcomed. I think there is a future for the country. If the people at the other side ever expect to become a Government, they will have to realise that it is the policy that matters. The people will never be satisfied just by an attack on Fianna Fáil; and those opposite should not consider that as sufficient to return them to this side of the House. They will have to do something more constructive. They will have to put before the people a policy which is in some way better than the policy Fianna Fáil have put before them.

If all the speeches from the other side of the House were as reasonable, generally speaking, as the speech we have just heard from Deputy Healy, I think Deputy Healy would achieve the goal he would like to see achieved here. In other words, there would be a reasonable appraisal of the problems which arise out of the document we are discussing here to-day, Deputies would come in to discuss the problems objectively, to give honour where honour is due and credit where credit is due. Deputy Healy made an effort to do that— perhaps half-heartedly; nevertheless it was a good sign when he said that the conditions at the moment operating in his constituency—which is my constituency also—are not due entirely to the action of one Government or the other.

That is quite true. Some of the prosperity which is in Cork at the moment is due to certain happenings during the time of the inter-Party Government. My attitude is largely the same as Deputy Healy's. It would be an excellent thing if we found that the majority of Deputies, on both sides of the House, were ready to look upon things in the way in which the Minister for Education did, in a reasonably objective speech, in which he referred to the Report of O.E.E.C. on Ireland for 1958. There was reference in it to positive advances made here during 1958. If we were to look on things like that as part of a pattern which started back in 1922, when we won our freedom, if we were to look on 1958 simply as the culmination of the united efforts of all Parties and successive Governments, I think we would get much further in sending the message to which Deputy Healy referred, a message of confidence to the country. We would not be perennially depressing and inflating the people of the country, depending on which side of the House we sit, by having inevitable references to emigration and unemployment and all the distressing aspects which are inseparable from the life of every nation.

For that reason, I was horrified at the manner in which this debate was initiated by the Minister for Health. He set a standard which was as low as it could be and it has been continued persistently throughout this debate by members of the Government Party. I deplore it and I am sorry it should be so. Any weakness in human nature is appealed to by that sort of thing and possibly it begets speeches of a similar type from other parts of the House. It is wrong—and it certainly does not encourage the spirit of confidence which the country badly needs—for a Minister to indicate that, since 1957, everything has gone right and that it has gone right, not as part of a pattern, but simply and solely because the collection of Parties forming the previous Government was driven out of office and another Party came into office.

That is the spirit that nullifies any effort to make a constructive debate out of a discussion such as this. It would be an excellent thing if we could stand up here and reflect that we have more wealth at our disposal now, and that each year as the years go by we have more houses, better land, land in better heart, and more reclaimed land; that we have improved roads, more ships and more exploration of mineral resources; that we have an oil refinery and various things constituting an annual accretion of wealth here. People like the Minister for Health should refrain from making political capital of any little bit of prosperity that happens to visit this nation when his Party are in power. It would make for a higher standard of debate and a greater feeling of confidence among the people generally. We have been told that emigration has stopped or is showing signs of stopping since Fianna Fáil came into power. I am glad, as Deputies opposite are glad, that there has been some improvement in that respect and I trust it will continue. I should be glad if it continued and I would even be ready to listen to Deputies opposite claiming that it was because they were in power that emigration was stopping. But I should like Ministers to make up their minds as to whether emigration is stopping or decreasing or not. The Ministers show a deplorable lack of unanimity on this point. I heard Ministers say to-day and yesterday that emigration was decreasing, but— and Deputy Healy has seen this document also—I have a letter which was sent to Cork Corporation on 31st January, 1959, by the Minister for Local Government, rebuking the corporation for taking an optimistic outlook that emigration would decrease in the next five years.

In planning for their housing needs, Cork Corporation did take the view that there would be fewer vacancies in existing houses, due to emigration, but the Minister wrote down and said:—

"How dare you take that view; I do not take that view." I should like to quote a little bit of the letter in which he refers to that. It was a reply to a suggestion from the housing staff officer of Cork Corporation that we will want more houses because there will be fewer vacancies due to emigration. The Minister in his reply says:—

"With regard to the growth of families and other contingencies these may reasonably be expected to be compensated for in full by deaths, family dispersals, emigration from the city and rehousing by private enterprise".

He goes on to say:

"It will be noted in this context that the population of Cork City fell by approximately 3½ per cent. in the intra-censal period 1951-56 and no grounds are advanced by the staff officer in support of his statement that it is doubtful if these vacancies will occur at the same rate as in recent years due to emigration".

A simple paraphrase of that is that the Minister for Local Government is convinced that there will be no decrease in emigration. I think Ministers should resolve that among themselves before they come into the House and take up a certain attitude.

The Minister for Education dealt with tourism, as did other speakers. We are asked at the moment to give £200,000 on that Vote. Tourism is an excellent thing, and we should encourage it as much as possible, but I doubt if we are spending our money in the wisest way. Yesterday or to-day, I heard some speaker refer to the fact that somebody under the aegis of some tourist board spent the taxpayers' money last Autumn in feting Miss Maxwell, an American columnist, and that they got very bad value for it. There is a modern approach generally by tourist bodies to this problem of attracting tourists, but I think they are inclined to go a little too far. Another grouse I have is that no effort appears to be made to follow up the old maxim addressed to the people of this country: "See Ireland first." In any Irish Sunday newspaper you take up, you find Aer Línte or Aer Lingus doing their best to entice every citizen to go outside the country for holidays and spend money abroad. At least a similar effort should be made to get people to spend holidays at home at the various beautiful resorts we have. It is understandable that people like to leave the country now and again during their lifetime, but they should first be encouraged to see their own country.

The Minister for Education also told us about money made available to Cork Harbour Commissioners by the Government. This also underlines what I spoke about already, that matters like the welfare of Cork harbour are not isolated instances, stemming from the fact that this or that Government are in power. The Minister said this Government had made available to Cork harbour certain financial facilities which will assist the harbour commissioners in the future. I want to mention—not in any competitive spirit but rather to underline the gradual process by which Cork harbour and the country generally can achieve prosperity—that at the time of the inter-Party Government, a large sum was made available for Cork harbour. As a result, amenities there have been improved. It is good to see that the inter-Party Government at one stage made money available and that the Fianna Fáil Government are now doing so, but I should hate to feel that anybody would get up on the other side of the House and try to claim that any increased prosperity in Cork harbour, as a result of increased amenities, stems only from the Vote which has been made in respect of Cork harbour on this occasion.

It is good that we are asked for some increases in regard to education. The present Minister, like his predecessor, seems to have taken an active approach to many of the problems. I invariably approach the Vote for the Department of Education with some misgivings. Undoubtedly successive Ministers and their advisers, sincerely enthusiastic in their policy, have spent too much on the Irish language. I do not suggest for one moment that money expended——

I suggest that the details in relation to Education might be left over for the discussion on the main Estimate.

I do not intend to deal with details; I simply want to mention the matter on a broad basis. Having said what I did say, I should like to be allowed to qualify it. My belief is that had the money spent in the past been spent more wisely, we would not to-day be in the position in which the average young Irish man and woman has merely learned the language for a specific purpose; not only would they have learned it but they would love it. It is only natural that Irishmen and women should be attracted to their own language. The money spent on trying to popularise Irish is largely wasted because the element of compulsion in examinations like the Intermediate and Leaving Certificates nullifies any good that is done. Before a student will get a certificate, he or she must pass in Irish. That has caused a reaction against the language.

The Vote on Account does not lend itself to a discussion on the Irish language.

I am not particularising; I have no intention of particularising.

Does compulsion react against mathematics?

I do not mind if Irish people do not love mathematics, but I begin to worry when they do not love Irish. I begin to wonder why. The Minister's intervention shows the fallacy behind the argument.

It shows the fallacy in the Deputy's argument. He picks Irish out for special mention.

I picked Irish out because I am more interested in it than I am in mathematics. The Minister's allegation is, of course, typical. If anyone says anything about Irish, the worst motives are straightaway ascribed to him. I speak as I do simply because I am interested in Irish and I want to prevent the continuation of the damage that is being done to it daily by people like the Minister with his trite remarks.

I feel the matter should be reserved for the debate on the main Estimate.

I am simply answering the Minister.

The question of the Irish language is not relevant to the Vote on Account.

The average young Irishman and woman learn enough Irish to pass Intermediate and Leaving Certificate, leave school, and promptly forget all about it. The reason for that is that they spend most of their school lives in fear of failing the examination because of failure in Irish. The test of the position is that, if one goes into a shop——

I again point out to the Deputy that this is out of order.

I wish the speeches from the other side of the House were all as reasonable as that of the Minister for Education this morning. That would have called forth a spirit here which would have had important repercussions on the country as a whole. Naturally, the country will be unhappy, knowing the Minister is imposing this large levy this year. It must not be forgotten that, in addition to this levy, there is all the other taxation passed on by the Minister to local bodies in connection with Health Acts and so forth. Not alone will the taxpayers have to pay more, but the ratepayers will have to pay more also. That does not make for the confidence about which the Minister spoke.

After this placid passage between Corkmen, one must be careful, in view of the perhaps belated encouragement from both sides of the House, to be constructive rather than destructive. Destructive criticism, destruction of any kind, has never been the particular prerogative of my Party. One cannot help observing that when members of the Fianna Fáil Party are in Government, they clamour for constructive criticism; they clamour for a reasoned approach; they clamour for recasting of views on unemployment and emigration. But, when they are in opposition on this side of the House, the ills of emigration, the ills of unemployment and whatever other national ills appear to be existent, are all solemnly attributed to the ineptitude of the Government they oppose.

Now, they cannot have it both ways. There must be some degree of consistency. If people look for reasonableness when they are on one side of the House, it must then be regarded as reasonable to look for the same attitude when they are in opposition. With regard to constructive criticism, Deputy Sherwin put his finger on the matter last night when he said: "I may know what to do in a given set of circumstances, but you are being paid to do what you said you would do and what you said you knew how to do. Accordingly, why should I have to give you a blueprint for something in which you have failed and in respect of which you solemnly promised results."

One cannot help approaching this Vote on Account year after year with a certain feeling of futility and dismay. It seems to be part and parcel of the preparation of this Vote on Account that it must show an increase year by year. I do not object to increases qua increases, if those increases will confer benefits upon the community as a whole and if they will result in national advancement or a resurgence in the economic well-being of the people. I do not believe for one moment that there is anything new in this Vote on Account—I stress “new”—which will have any of these effects.

One welcomes the continuation and intensification of the bovine T.B. eradication scheme. I believe that is the most important national work at the moment and the more intensively it is pursued, the better it will be for us in the shortest possible time. Live stock, and live-stock products, have always been the mainstay of this country. Curiously enough, in spite of efforts to destroy it, the live-stock industry has survived to become the subject of praise on the part of its erstwhile oppressors. In 1931, there was a report issued by the League of Nations; it was a review of the world situation following the depression of 1929—a depression that was described in an Encyclical at the time as one of the worst disasters that had hit the world since the Flood, and it described the survival of Europe generally and, in particular, of Denmark and Ireland in relation to the depression. It attributed that survival to the fact that live stock and live-stock products were the mainstay of the economy of each country.

Year after year, pictures of progress are painted. When we come to look at progress, as we know it, and adverting particularly to what is our mainstay, live stock and live stock produce, and their export, we must have regard to the very compelling figures and the equally compelling arguments we have for the figures and the deductions to be drawn from them.

By 1931 and, mind you, that was the year in which this report to which I have referred was written about Ireland, we had survived ten very difficult years, years of formation, years of building, years of sacrifice, years of compromise in the interests of peace. In that year, our exports totalled £36.3 million. Of course, dealing with figures and particularly figures of money, one must relate them to their value at the particular time. The Government Party came into power in 1932 and it is sufficient to say that I think—it must be certain—that they persuaded the people at that time that theirs was the policy, theirs was the plan, from which prosperity would come, and it would come only from that source.

We come now to 1947. Admittedly, in the intervening years, we had the war which possibly interfered with our economic programme, but nevertheless, as the war developed, one would have expected—if our machinery of Government were directed towards agricultural products and agriculture generally, and if it were properly geared to the benefits to be derived from war-time prices which prevailed not only during the war but after the war—a huge increase in 1947 over the figure of £36.3 million at which it stood in 1931.

What is the fact? The fact is that, in 1947, the value of our exports stood at £39.5 million, a mere increase of £3,000,000. If we wanted to boast and claim credit—I do not believe it is anything to boast about or that any substantial credit is to be claimed for it—the much derided Coalition Government or inter-Party Government then—it depends on your point of view which you call it—came into power. It has been adequately described in the course of speeches not alone on this Vote but over the past few years. The advantages of that Government and, of course, equally the disadvantages, have been adequately described, but, nevertheless, all the policies that are in operation at the moment were initiated by that Government. The inter-Party Government did not come together for the purpose of getting power or for the allocation of offices in Government. They did not come into power as a result of a single promise made in 1947 or during the course of the election in 1948. I should describe that Government as a body of men who, at that time, had regard to the general economic circumstances prevailing, and who had regard to the very serious likelihood that no improvement could be expected from the Government then in power. Fianna Fáil were stagnant, they were bereft of ideas and they had no real initiative to proceed with the job in hand.

The inter-Party group came together, pooled their common resources, abandoned their differences of detail and set to work on a plan for the nation's betterment. That plan has been in operation for 10 years in spite of two very serious interruptions and, in 1957, the year in which the second Coalition lead by Deputy Costello went out of office, the value of our exports stood at £131,000,000. That is a fact which cannot be denied and I have no hesitation in attributing it to the bold plan and policy of the inter-Party Government directed towards the working of the land and the produce of the land.

The Fianna Fáil Government were in office in 1952 and they sought, by deliberate act, to withdraw portion of the food subsidies. They increased the cost of living by their deliberate act. It is true, as was suggested here, that they won two out of three by-elections shortly after that Budget, and one can, of course, except that because the impact of something is never really felt for some little time, and it was not felt at that time because there was a very rapid administrative effort to offset whatever impact there might have been. I remember well taking part as a candidate in one of the by-elections in my present constituency, and I could not help being suitably impressed by the rapidity with which the Department of Social Welfare issued the new pension books, the new children's allowances book, and the other vouchers covering the little benefits that were given to offset the impact, as it were, of the Budget of 1957, so that they had reached the hands of the recipients long before they voted in that election. I suppose it is well to admit that would appear to be the political game.

Now we move along to when that Government were put out of power in 1954. The story started to go against them before that and it was because the impact of the rise in the cost of living, as a result of the deliberate action of that Government, was making itself felt more and more strongly, as time went on, that it went against them.

It is all very well to say that the condition that arose in 1956, during the last administration of Deputy J.A. Costello, was brought about by ineptitude, by lack of planning on the part of his colleagues at that time. Anybody who says that is either suppressing vital facts or telling falsehoods, which might be described as white, seeing they are political, but I do not think that a man of the experience and political maturity which one would expect to reside in the person of the Minister for Health should come into the House, as he did yesterday evening, and deliver an all-time low. I think that kind of thing is bad. That kind of thing in itself is something that destroys public confidence in public men and public institutions, but then, I think, one might dismiss the Minister for Health with the words of Lord Macauley, applied to a well-known Anglo-Irish poet, that strict veracity was never one of his virtues.

In speaking on this Vote on Account, I am not interested in millions of pounds as such. I am interested in the simple arithmetic of pounds, shillings and pence, as if affects the homes of the people in the constituency which I represent. We have no rich people there. We are more or less all in the same situation. There may be some percentage much better off than others, but, by and large, we are a constituency of small farmers, whose incomes are supplemented by migratory labour in England and remittances from America, or by finding some local, seasonal work, provided by the Special Employment Schemes Office, or by the local authority. That is the kind of pattern there and it is not a pattern which is in any way new to many members here. It is the pattern of rural Ireland particularly in the maritime constituencies, and what I am concerned about is that this Vote on Account does not appear to me, at any rate, to have either in its implied policy, or its stated application, any relief for those people.

It is true we have increased the salaries and the wages of other sections of the community. We have given certain benefit to old age pensioners—a shilling a week to offset this increase, which, by the way, is an increase that cannot be regarded in the ordinary country household as unsubstantial and insignificant, and one not likely to make a severe impact upon the family economy. From 1948 to 1951, the price of bread was 6½d. for a 2 lb. loaf. In 1954, as a result of the 1952 Budget, the price went up to 9d. and, as a result of the complete withdrawal of food subsidies in 1957, it now stands at 1/1½d. Flour, which was 2/8 a stone from 1948 to 1951 went up to 4/5 in 1952 as a result of the Budget of that year, and now stands at 7/8 a stone. As a result of the withdrawal of the subsidies in the 1957 Budget, sugar has gone up from 4d. to 7½d. a lb., and butter has gone up from 2/10 to 4/4 a lb. That is the kind of thing that means something to me and means something to the people I represent.

I want to know what is being given through this Vote on Account expressly and/or impliedly to the people who have to sustain themselves on small uneconomic holdings and supplement their incomes in the ways I have mentioned. In connection with those supplementary earnings, I want to say this—and I think it is the experience of anybody who knows anything about migration—that the good earnings in England are not as good as they were and, in fact, jobs there are not as easy to get as they were. It is all very well to talk about emigration, but I share the view of Deputy Dillon. I regard emigration, up to a point, as a good thing, as a safety valve up to a point, but, when it becomes something which is almost a stampede, and over which you appear to have no control, as a result of despondency and despair generally, that is a serious matter. If all these migrants have to come back here, what are we to do? What can we do for them?

Arguments have been put forward about how bouyant our economy is and that there is a spirit of optimism abroad. All these quotations come from The Statist and editorials in various financial journals, from reports of O.E.E.C., but go to the North Wall, go to Dún Laoghaire, go to any of the railway stations in the West or South of Ireland, go into any business house in any Irish country town to-day and ask what they think of the buoyancy and this spirit of optimism that O.E.E.C., and some economic charters of freedom, purport to represent us as enjoying at present. Those are the people to ask.

Lord Rank made a most significant observation at a recent meeting in Limerick. In addition to having bevies of beauties, he also makes flour, and he says that the abolition of the food subsidies here is reflected in this way, that for every ten sacks of flour sold before the abolition of the food subsidies, only seven sacks are sold now. This is the man who makes the flour, this is the man who sells the flour; this is the man who would be expected to know something about it. From that follow two certain deductions: either there are fewer people in the country eating flour, or the people in it are eating less flour. I am sure that will be perfectly intelligible to Deputy Kitt.

They probably eat more of something else—maybe potatoes.

If that is what Fianna Fáil wants the people to do—eat potatoes—fair enough.

They are eating something of food value. Whether it is bread or potatoes does not matter.

Order. Deputy Lindsay.

There have been speeches about reductions in emigration, but the Taoiseach, in a reply yesterday, said there were no figures on which one can rely. Yet the Minister for Finance said recently that emigration had been cut by half. Where did he get the figures on which he based that 50 per cent. cut? With regard to unemployment, there is one real figure in existence, that is, that there are 37,000 people fewer in insurable employment than there were when Deputy Costello's Government left office, and that is the test.

It has been denied that any promises were made about food subsidies or the cost of living. I do not have to accept that—I heard them being made. I do not have to assert again that they were false, but I do think it is high time we fulfilled the ambition, the urge and the zeal that brought every one of us here, namely, to make contributions by advice, argument, and counsel, and thereby discharge what must be regarded as our common duty to our fellow men.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 10th March, 1959.
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