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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Apr 1959

Vol. 174 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 9—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

Prior to the adjournment last week I referred to the Minister's remarks in relation to the cost of government. In his Budget statement he referred to the magnitude of that cost and he made some very pertinent remarks. I think it was about two years ago, in 1957, that the Minister undertook to do all he could to effect a degree of economy in the various State Departments under his control. Whether his efforts since have met with any great success I doubt very much, but I agree that there are many difficulties in the way of bringing about these much needed economies. They are difficulties which cannot be overcome very easily or very quickly and one of the most important of those difficulties is concerned with the human element.

In his Budget statement the Minister referred to consultations which were going on between himself and the respective bodies which cater for the various officers and servants in the many Departments. He said that he was awaiting their remarks and he hoped that he would receive co-operation and understanding from them. I sincerely hope that some good will come from his efforts. Ministers before him have done what they could to economise in this direction, and, as I said, it is a long term plan which must be adopted and which cannot be implemented overnight. It is very strange that in this small country of ours, in which there are less than 3,000,000 people, and in which the population seems to be declining, we must have such an army, if I may call it such, of personnel to administer the various services.

One would imagine that if the population is declining the numbers required to administer the various services would proportionately, to some degree at least, also decline. But the total outlay required at present to pay salaries, wages, etc., is in the region of £34,000,000. That is a staggering figure and I hope the Minister will succeed in his efforts to redress that situation in some way. One possible method which he could adopt would be to hesitate to fill vacancies as they arise. I am convinced that we could do with a much smaller number of officers and servants in the various Departments; I would go so far as to say that if vacancies were not filled down the years it would not impose any extra burden on those carrying on the services. The attitude, of course, adopted by the generality of the people is that the moneys required to pay this huge salary bill is coming off a broad back, just because it is the Government that provides the money. The Government, of course, means the people and that is everybody who buys anything, who pays taxes in any shape or form, or who pays rates. That brings us to old age pensioners. They are being asked to pay their share of the expenditure of the Government whether that expenditure is desirable or not. As I say, I hope the Minister will meet with success in this matter and will continue his efforts to bring much needed economy into the running of the various Departments.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

There are certain reliefs in this Budget and it is very significant that, small as they are, they have been spread over a comparatively wide area. I would say that that was obviously to impress the majority of the population in the hope that the effect will last until the Presidential Election and the Referendum have been held. They are reliefs to a certain degree and as such they are good.

With regard to the import levies, the reduction of some and the abolition of others is a very timely step to take. As we know, these levies were introduced to redress, to some extent, our adverse balance of trade some years ago. Now with the Free Trade Area on the horizon—it will come eventually, I suppose—it is only right that we should begin to acclimatise ourselves to open competition, as it were, and not to resort too hurriedly to the protective measures which we introduce from time to time, in the form of custom duties and import levies. If the Free Trade Area does materialise, even though we are classed as a comparatively underdeveloped country, we will still have to face a certain amount of competition, even in the initial stages and, if only for that reason, I think it is good that the import levies should be reduced.

In that regard, Deputy Sweetman was the person who imposed those levies in 1956, in a courageous effort to solve the financial problem at that time. One of their main purposes was that the money accruing from those levies should be used for capital purposes alone. Now we find, not this year only but also last year, the Minister using the money from those levies for current purposes. When the present Government was elected in 1957, I am sure they rubbed their hands with glee when they thought of the little nest egg which lay in the money accruing from the levies, when they thought how they could use that money to balance their Budgets in a fictitious way.

Relief has been given to the tune of 2/6 to old age pensioners, widows and blind pensioners and also to those in receipt of unemployment assistance. When the Minister was referring to that item of his Budget, he said it would be given to those drawing the maximum rate, in other words, the pension would be increased next August to 27/6 as against 25/- at present. Can the Minister say whether it is his intention to go down the line in porportion and give proportionate increases to those who are in receipt of smaller amounts of pension? Whether he intends to do that or not I do not know, but I do not think he made any reference to those who were in receipt of less than the maximum pension.

These increases have been advocated by many people throughout the country and they are overdue, especially when we recall the burden which many old people have to carry in relation to the high price of the necessities of life, ordinary food, bread and butter, on which they rely so much. If this increase in pension helps in some way to mitigate that burden, it is to be welcomed.

The Minister referred to State pensioners, on page 16 of his Budget speech, and said:——

"All would agree that pensioners who gave long and loyal service to the State in their different spheres deserve special consideration."

I do not think that special consideration should be given to these pensioners because of the long and loyal service which they may have given. Everyone, we can presume, gives the best service he can. This increase in pension is given, I imagine, to help in some way to offset the present cost of living and not so much in recognition for their long and loyal years of service, as the Minister puts it. It is given primarily to offset the burden of the cost of living.

En passant, I should like to ask the Minister to do what he can to help other sections of our people and put them in a position to say that, when they retire from their various employments, they likewise will be able to fall back on pensions. If contributory schemes were introduced in many of our industries, it would help in some way to satisfy many of our workers and would ease the tension which undoubtedly exists between employer and employee.

With regard to reliefs given to greyhound racing, the Minister pointed out that one of his reasons for abolishing the tax on greyhound racing was that there was no such tax on coursing or on horse racing and, to put the three sports on a level, he thought it proper to abolish the greyhound tax. He also referred to the possibilities which exist in a flourishing greyhound industry. In that regard, he remarked that Bord na gCon had recommended that this tax should be abolished, so that the greyhound tracks could flourish and the greyhound industry likewise flourish. Many people down the country will question the wisdom of that move. I personally agree that the greyhound industry gives a certain amount of employment and that its industrial potentialities are very great; but we cannot get away from the fact that greyhound racing is gambling, no matter what we think of it.

I imagine that it would have been more fitting and more proper if the Minister had applied these reliefs to other more necessitous objects. After all, we have only to take up our newspapers to read of the very large numbers who frequent these race meetings of all types. That suggests to me that they are in a position to carry a small tax. I do not agree that the tax should have been removed from greyhound racing.

With regard to other entertainments, the greater duty on admission to dances is likewise being reduced. Dancing, of course, is a luxury and whilst I agree that there are some worthwhile organisations which run dances for the purpose of augmenting their funds, I do not agree that the tax on dancing either, should have been reduced. If the Minister wanted to help these philanthropic and charitable organisations, he could have done so by some sort of weeding out, separating the wheat from the chaff, and deciding that dances run by such and such an organisation would merit exemption while others would not. However, that may be very difficult and cumbersome and may not justify the expense or the time involved in operating it.

I notice that the effective date for relief in relation to greyhound racing is the present time—from last Monday, I think—but the old age pension will not be increased until August next. When the increase comes in August, I wonder will it be retrospective to the date of the Budget? That point has been put to me by some pensioners since the Budget was introduced. They hope it will be retrospective, but whether their hopes will be justified or not remains to be seen. At any rate, they are anxious that this halfcrown increase will be made retrospective to the date of its announcement.

Income tax and surtax were mentioned by the Minister and it is good to see that there is a reduction, even though it is a small one. At least, the Minister is travelling in the right direction. I recall that some time ago, during the debate on the Vote on Account, Deputy J.A. Costello and Deputy Dillon were very vociferous, sincere, and genuine in urging that a direct reduction be made in taxation as against the granting of moneys in the form of grants. They said that would do far more than anything else to ease the present burden on industry, and, now, the reduction in income tax, and the raising of the level to £2,000 in relation to surtax, is some relief. Their effects on industry and employment should be good and I hope that they will lead to an expansion of industry in general.

I envisage many difficulties with regard to the proposed introduction of the P.A.Y.E. system which, as a matter of fact, is already operated by many firms in this country. Possibly this debate is not the proper occasion on which to go into detail, but I do not intend to do that. I just want to impress upon the Minister that there are two sides to the problem. There is the interest of the employee and there is also the interest of the employer, and it is an undoubted fact that the introduction of this system will impose extra work and extra expense on many firms. I suppose that it will be one or two years before it is introduced, and I hope it will be a system which will meet with the approval of both sides, employers and employees.

When the Minister referred to reliefs in relation to buildings and other industrial reliefs, he said that all the recommendations of the Industrial Taxation Committee had now been implemented, except two. These two are, of course, the granting of a two per cent. annual wear and tear allowance for capital expenditure on industrial buildings, and the granting of an obsolescence allowance where plant or machinery is not replaced. He said that it was his intention to provide in the Finance Bill for the implementation of both these recommendations with effect from 6th April, 1960. I was interested to read that harbours will be brought within the scope of these relieving provisions and I welcome that step very much. He said that capital expenditure incurred on dredging and other site preparation works will be eligible for initial and annual allowances.

With the introduction and the operation of the oil refinery at Whitegate, it is to be hoped that the provincial harbours will be developed to a great extent, in order to be better able to take the supplies of oil when they are carried around our coasts. If only for that reason, these allowances in relation to harbours should be welcomed and provincial ports should be encouraged in their efforts to develop because, as I say, they will be required to be in a position to take these imports of oil from the Whitegate refinery.

The Minister made a reference also to the present duty on tobacco and said that the imposition of an excise duty of 2½d. per lb. on the leaf was decided on with the consent of the manufacturers. When we consider that we collect about £25,000,000 in revenue from tobacco duty, we must admit that that is a very important source of revenue to the Government, but I am glad to see that this arrangement is optional. Even though the manufacturers have agreed to an increase of 2½d. per lb., they may opt out of this arrangement if they wish and they may continue, as they have been doing for the past number of years, to pay according as they draw from their warehouses. The Minister said that brewers could take advantage of a four weeks' time lag in order to pay duty and it was in the interests of the tobacco manufacturers to do likewise.

There is one facet of this matter to which I should like to refer, that is, in relation to the tourist industry and the consumption of tobacco in this country. I think that the possibility of increasing still further the numbers of tourists who come here lies in not increasing the price of cigarettes any further. By that, I mean not falling into the temptation to increase the tax on cigarettes. Thousands of people who come to this country find they can get cigarettes—which are a very important item in our daily lives—cheaper than they can get them at home, and, if cigarette prices do not go up, tourists, especially English people, will be encouraged to come here in greater numbers. In that regard, I would urge the Minister to allow those visitors to take out of the country as many cigarettes as they want when they are returning home. Sometimes we read of cigarette seizures being made from tourists and I think that is wrong. It is not encouraging the tourist industry; it is not encouraging our native tobacco industry; and if some steps were taken to remove that anomaly, it would improve the position.

There are one or two omissions from this Budget which I should like to mention. The first relates to death duties. The Minister made no reference to the heavy burden which many people have to bear when they find they have to pay death duties on estates. The effect of this burden on industry, on the farming community and on people affected in general, is very great and I hope the Minister will do something to lessen that effect sometime in the near future. That subject was included in the submissions made to the Minister by the Association of Chambers of Commerce. They thought it so important that they included it in the memorandum which they sent to the Minister prior to the introduction of the Budget.

Another omission which I observe is that the duty on newsprint remains. We can recall the reason why the special import levy was imposed on newsprint back in 1956. I know the Minister is aware that the printing industry gives great employment here. It is one of our most important industries. When we remember that newsprint is not produced at home— we are not competing against any native project in that regard—the Minister should consider giving some relief to this industry. But there does not appear to be any hope that this duty will be reduced.

I would urge the Minister in his efforts to promote the general economy of the country to see to it that greater and easier credit will be available. It is the absence of credit at a reasonable interest that is retarding our economy at present. It is good to observe that the banks and other lending organisations in recent months are more inclined to give money on loan. But the rate of interest is still very high, and that is one of the chief deterring factors for people who otherwise would seek credit and use it in the interest of the country.

The Minister rightly referred to the human factor which should transcend everything else. No matter what any Government does in its efforts to advance the economy, its efforts will be brought to nought if the people themselves do not cooperate and work as hard as possible. I would ask the Minister to concentrate on tourism, forestry, the eradication of bovine T.B. and on education. The emphasis should be placed on the latter subject. Only when education is improved will we have laid the solid foundation for tackling the other projects.

This Budget has been referred to as an election Budget. That is quite possible, human nature being what it is; but in my opinion it could not have been otherwise, because reliefs had to come; the people were crying out for them. The reliefs given to old-age pensioners and others, to income-tax payers and those liable for sur-tax were bound to come eventually. The situation was becoming too serious and the burden that industry in general was carrying was well high intolerable. While this year the budget was comparatively good, it will be very interesting to see what kind of Budget we shall have next year and whether the Budget will contain any good things. I hope it will but time alone will tell. I could describe this Budget as one of presumption, because the Minister is presuming he will not require £2,500,000; before the year is out, I think he will have to come to the House and ask for that £2,500,000, or portion of it, in the form of Supplementary Estimates.

Like very many others who are members of the general public, I welcome this Budget as a very proper one and, at the same time, quite a courageous one. I was glad to hear the last Deputy refer to the fact that the reliefs were necessary. I am glad to agree with him that it is not simply a question of an election Budget. Most members of the Opposition do agree that a Budget such as this was essential in the national interest. Whether there is a referendum, a general election, a Presidential election or anything in the offing, this is the sort of Budget which the economic situation of the country demanded.

There are many factors which give rise to feelings of optimism. One, referred to by the Minister in his Budget speech, was the increase in employment in manufacturing industries. Comment was made by some members of the Opposition on the fact that total employment had not increased and some feeling was expressed that the Minister had in some way juggled with the figures in order to produce an imaginary increase in certain quarters. I have not got any particular insight into the Minister's mind but it certainly appears to me that it was reasonable to refer specifically to the increase in employment in manufacturing industries by reason of the fact that it is in that sphere that there is the greatest possibility of an increase in employment and that it is through expansion of manufacturing industries we can hope for some impact on the problem of unemployment.

Unemployment, of course, does indeed remain a very serious problem, as the Minister stressed, too. But we have got to remember that modern developments have made employment, as such, more difficult. The rising standard of living generally, the rise in wages has made it much more economic——

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was commenting on the difficulty of providing employment under present circumstances when, through the rising standard of living and the rising cost of wages, it has become much more economic than hitherto to use mechanical equipment and to dispense with manual labour. This has been particularly obvious in the road development schemes where modern machinery is capable of laying roads much more economically and, in fact, very much better than if manual labour solely were employed. This applies to all branches of industry where the use of mechanical equipment is increasing very rapidly and where industrial expansion can be very considerable without—unfortunately, in many ways—affecting the total employment position. I refer to that simply to stress the fact that it is not easy to make a significant improvement in the unemployment position without a very large increase, indeed, in both industrial and agricultural output.

What about the 100,000 jobs the Minister for Industry and Commerce talked about?

I think that question might more properly be raised at another time and directed to someone other than myself. I do not, therefore, propose to pay any attention to it. The unemployment position is still very much in the mind of the Government. That is clearly shown by the Minister when, in the opening part of his speech, he referred to the total unemployment figure being still much too high. It is, of course, obvious that there has been a significant fall in emigration. It is no harm to emphasise that some effort has been made, and some success achieved, not only to stop the rot but also to put the country on the road to complete recovery. The Minister was very realistic in his approach. He could quite easily have glossed over certain disturbing features, but he did not attempt to do so. He even referred to the fact that there has been some disimprovement in our trading position in recent months; in January, imports were exceptionally high and exports were below average. There was no effort made by the Minister to disguise the continued weakness of our position in certain sectors of our economy. The Minister looked the facts squarely in the face when framing his Budget.

He referred later in his Budget statement to the fact that the economy has gained ground generally. That is certainly no exaggeration. In Table V of the Economic Statistics, there is reference to the general monetary situation. The net external assets of the commercial banks for the years 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957 and 1958 are set out. For 1954, the net external assets were £121,000,000; for 1955, when the rot and the panic had set in, net external assets dropped from £121,000,000 to £85,000,000; there was a slight recovery in 1956 when they increased to £88.4 million; at the end of 1957, there was again a slight recovery to £90.5 million; and at the end of 1958, they had gone up to £104.9 million—practically £105,000,000. That shows the growing strength of the economy. It shows a very healthy sign generally and is something for which the Government very rightly take their share of the credit.

In view of that improvement, it was only right that the Minister should see his way to run what he described as a "limited temporary risk". This type of risk is well known to anyone engaged in business, whether large or small. There are times when one must take a limited risk in order to achieve a certain long-term aim. That is precisely what the Minister is doing. At the same time, he issued a warning that we must not overspend for current purposes. Our spending must be productive. There is no sign there of lack of realism or lack of foresight. I was glad the Minister mentioned the human factor. Very often, in high finance, the individual is forgotten. There is such a mass of statistics to be analysed that the human element is overlooked. The Minister has avoided that pitfall exceedingly well.

I was disappointed in a way that the Minister did not go a little further in respect of one matter to which he referred. He stated it was the object of both Government and Opposition that taxation should fall more heavily on expenditure rather than on income. I believe our entire taxation system in relation to income is fundamentally unsound. Taxation on expenditure provides an incentive for saving and investment; taxation on income does not. I believe taxation on expenditure should be increased and taxation on income progressively repealed. It is only in that way that we shall foster a proper spirit of providence; it is only in that way that saving and investment will be encouraged.

When one knows that the more one earns, the more one pays by way of taxation, one is tempted to take the view that one will get the best value one can for one's money, as quickly as one can, before the Revenue get it. Taxation on expenditure, on the other hand, inculcates a habit of saving, and the more savings there are the stronger will be our economy as a whole. I hope the Minister will keep that aspect of taxation before him and I hope that, before he relinquishes office, he will have made an even more courageous move to rectify the position and give a further tonic to our economy generally.

Pension increases have been well received, but on the whole people tend to say that the increase is too small. Unfortunately, that cannot be denied. Few people, however, appreciate the cost of even a small increase. The general public should be made to realise that it is not niggardliness on the part of the Government which prevents them raising certain pensions by 5/- or 7/6. The increase of 2/6 in the old age and widows' pensions and unemployment assistance will cost £883,000. The operative date is next August. The cost, therefore, for a full year will be much greater. Perhaps when that is realised, people will be a bit more understanding of the reluctance on the part of the Government to go further than they have gone in the present instance. The Government are not unmindful of the needs of the less fortunate members of our community. To do more than they have done would call for the provision of an enormous sum of money. That money can be raised only by additional taxation and such an increase would not be appreciated by the public generally.

Referring again to the importance of the human factor, I was glad that the Minister referred to the fact that heavy taxation can be a serious disincentive to individual effort and can, and does, militate against managerial, executive, and professional abilities being fully applied to the raising of the level of production and employment. We are only now beginning to realise the tremendous need for really well-qualified managers and executives in industry. Training in management is absolutely essential and the Irish Management Institute is doing a tremendous job in raising the standard of management and putting before industry generally the absolute necessity for proper cost accounting in industries of all sorts.

Good managers and good cost accountants are highly qualified men who could and would command very high salaries in Britain, where the need for them is more fully realised, and if we lose such men, we shall be losing men who are absolutely vital to our own expansion. For that reason, I was delighted that some concession was made in the income tax levels, but I am still very doubtful on the question of the P.A.Y.E. system. I know it is possible in businesses of a moderate size and it is, of course, comparatively easy in a very large business where a very large accounts staff is constantly employed; but in small businesses, or on a farm, I foresee the most terrible difficulties in making the P.A.Y.E. system work at all.

I hope it will be introduced only with extreme caution and it certainly is not the complete answer to the problem of the revision of our income tax code. It could help considerably in certain cases, but I think that is as far as I would go. I am absolutely convinced it will raise a tremendous number of almost insuperable difficulties for employers of small staffs who will not be able to deal with the complicated issues involved.

I am afraid I was disappointed also by the Minister's omission to refer to death duties. I am sure he gave the matter consideration but I feel this is becoming a matter of increasing importance as time goes on. In the grey book, Economic Development, the yield from various sources of taxation is set out and it is interesting to see that the yield from tobacco is £8.98 million, whereas the yield from death duties is £.23 million, £230,000. That is the gross yield from death duties. It has to be remembered that the current Estimate provides for salaries in the Estate Duty Office of practically £46,000. Other expenditure in connection with the assessment and collection of estate duty such as is incurred in the Accountant General's Office, the Stamping Branch, the typing pool and so forth, easily accounts for £5,000. The upkeep of premises— light, heat, stationery, office equipment and so on—easily accounts for another £5,000 per annum. This makes a total expenditure of £56,000 at the very least—it might be considerably more— leaving a net receipt for death duties of £174,000 at the very most. I estimate it would be considerably less than that. For the purpose of collecting £174,000 worth of death duties, we run the risk of very substantial disemployment because a family business may be put in extreme financial difficulty through having to raise the necessary funds to discharge death duties.

Those who are clever enough can make suitable provision to avoid payment of death duties to any great extent, but there are far too many cases where an old-established business has had to be wound up, the staff dismissed and the premises disposed of because a comparatively small amount of death duty had to be raised at once. I cannot feel this is in the national interest at all and I would ask the Minister to give further consideration to the suggestion that death duties should be abolished. I feel that that would be a tremendous incentive to investment in this country, especially if death duties were not leviable on Irish assets but were still leviable on assets overseas. It would mean that a man retiring to this country and wishing to avail of that facility would be almost compelled to realise his assets in the other country and to invest in Irish industry or Irish property in order to avoid payment of death duties.

To my mind, this could make an enormous difference to our whole economy by creating an influx of capital which could well be used for industrial development. At the moment, it is very difficult to float a private issue for a private company. It is very difficult to turn a private company into a public company because the necessary amount of investment capital is not available. For that reason, the Industrial Credit Company has to step into the breach. I believe it would be an additional benefit to the State if extra capital were attracted to the country and I would ask the Minister to look into this very carefully.

I was glad the Minister was prepared to regard repair of foreign ships in Irish dockyards as a qualification for the granting of tax relief and I hope this concession will also apply to those who repair foreign ships actually on the high seas. Based on Dún Laoghaire, in my own constituency, there is one salvage ship to which I have referred already in correspondence with the Minister. That ship goes out and repairs ships which are experiencing mechanical trouble while still at sea. All the earnings of that ship so far have been in foreign currency and even though the ships are repaired at sea and not in Irish dockyards, as mentioned in the Minister's speech, Irish labour is employed and foreign currency is brought into the country. I hope, therefore, that the Minister will bear that matter in mind and that salvage ships based on Irish ports will qualify for the granting of tax reliefs, the same as any other export industry.

The Minister referred to the question of possible economies, or a possible reorganisation, in the Civil Service structure. I am afraid I must confess to a little disappointment that further progress has not been made in that connection. I do not want to appear prejudiced against the civil servants as such, but at the same time, there is foundation for the belief that there is far too much overlapping in many Government Departments, and far too much reluctance to allow junior civil servants to take decisions. I have a horror of this business of one person referring a file to somebody else, who refers it again to a higher person; then it goes a little further and up further again and back, and up and down, with the result that a tremendous number of civil servants are very actively engaged, but no decision is being reached.

I am sure the Minister has read that magnificent book Parkinson's Law. It is indeed a very amusing book but it is also a damning indictment of Civil Service procedure in all countries. Let us be quite clear that, though it was written about Britain, it also concerns us, and I gather that it applies equally to Europe and America. It is a chronic weakness in the Civil Service structure. In view of that, the time has come to be rather more ruthless, and possibly the Minister ought not to be so much the gentleman he undoubtedly is being in that connection.

The Minister has referred to the fact that the views of heads of Departments have been sought, and that efforts were made to reconcile differing views by discussions, and that proposals were then forwarded to the staffs. I think that is an impossible thing to do, to refer, to a staff concerned, measures for a reduction in their numbers which would undoubtedly affect the seniority of some of them. The decision must be taken at the top and a decision will have to be taken that the total number employed in the Civil Service must be reduced by a certain percentage, by a certain date. That decision should then be referred to the heads of Departments and they should be told: "Your Department must continue to run efficiently with a reduction of five per cent. in your staff during the current year."

No one would suggest that civil servants should be dismissed, but I am convinced that by the ruthless stopping of recruitment, a very substantial reduction in the total man-power could be achieved fairly rapidly. That is a job which needs courageous handling, but I believe the Minister has the courage to do it, and I hope he will do it. If he does it, it will undoubtedly be received with great relief by those who are at present the employers of that vast body of civil servants and who sometimes feel they are not getting their full money's worth. I know that sounds unfriendly and unappreciative. I do not want it to appear that way because my experience, especially with senior civil servants, has been very friendly—and I may say I was greatly impressed by their standard of ability and enthusiasm—but below them, there are so many others that it almost appears that they are falling over one another and getting in one another's way rather than helping their seniors to reach decisions or to get the facts of a case clearly before them.

In general, I feel that while I have criticised a few points, both of omission and commission, the Minister is to be congratulated on a courageous Budget. The accusation was bound to be levelled against him that it was purely an election Budget, but I am glad the Opposition generally appear to realise that the economy of the country needed the shot in the arm which it undoubtedly is getting. If this shot in the arm produces as good results as we all hope it will, and as I certainly believe it will, there is no doubt that next year's Budget will be a satisfactory one also. This is a time when we should proceed with courage and realism and the Minister has done both. I should like to congratulate him on what he has done so far, and to ask him again to give consideration to the other points I have raised, in which I feel I am supported by a number of others, both inside and outside the House.

Last Sunday, I was interested to read an article in the Sunday Press under the heading: “Upward Swing in Economy is now Certain—say Industrialists.” The article reads:—

"The view of industrialists is that the Budget is bound to lead to a tremendous upward swing in our economy. The Federation of Irish Industries and other organisations are to meet shortly to consider in detail the incentives to industry which have been provided."

That is printed in heavy type at the top of the article. It goes on to give the views of the President of the Federation of Irish Industries, the past President of the Federation of Irish Industries, and then the views of prominent industrial leaders such as Sir Basil Goulding, Mr. Colm Barnes, Glen Abbey Textiles, Dr. Louis Smith, Economic Adviser to N.F.A., Mr. David Frame and Mr. J.K. Clear of the National Fishermen's Association.

I am quite sure it will be noted that only one of these groups can lay any claim to being an organisation catering for, and made up of, the ordinary working people of this country. I was amazed to find that in that article not a single view of organised labour as represented by the Congress of Irish Unions or, indeed, by any leader of any organised group of workers in this country was published. It may well be that the newspaper endeavoured to get their views for inclusion in the article, but the fact is that the article, as published, gives not a single view of the Budget and its effect on our economy as seen through the eyes of those who represent organised labour. While it is true that the paper may not be at fault perhaps because of not receiving replies to queries, but it must be noted that the Congress of Irish Unions published a statement last Friday giving their comments on the Minister's Budget statement, and it is amazing that this article could not include even a synopsis of their statement.

The Sunday Press is practically a Government controlled affair and it may well be that it was thought undesirable to have any discordant note in the hymn of praise being sung in connection with the Budget. It might have been embarrassing if questions were asked of trade union leaders as to how the 70,000 unemployed and their dependants were to fare during the coming year and what prospects or hope the Budget gave them. Again it could be embarrassing and take away from the strength of the article and the optimism expressed in it, if a question were asked as to where the real figures were which gave the Taoiseach the authority to claim that emigration was now on the decline.

Many of us keenly interested in employment and emigration fail to find the same comfort from the figures available either from the Central Statistics Office or from our own personal knowledge. An eminent churchman in the South of Ireland, Bishop Lucey, has claimed that emigration is now as bad as ever it was since the days of the Famine. In last Sunday's article in the Sunday Press the reason for such an optimistic outlook and the facts on which it was based should have been brought to the notice of readers from one side as well as the other. I regret it was not thought fit —I realise the Minister has no personal responsibility for it but I wish to comment on it—at least to publish the views of organised labour because they are an important factor and they are the factor that will have to be considered if our economy is to make the progress that is foretold.

It would be difficult to examine this Budget from the point of view of the ordinary working man without casting our minds back to the Budget of 1957. Any reliefs or concessions given in this Budget can be viewed only against the background that in that year the £9 million subsidies for essential foodstuffs, bread, butter and flour, formerly subsidised by the State, were removed and that on to the shoulders of the ordinary working people was placed that added sum in providing these essentials for themselves and their families. That was done notwithstanding the fact that the Tánaiste in his speech in Waterford, and I believe elsewhere, gave a definite assurance that if his Government were returned to power, there was no intention of removing them.

It is true that the Minister gave some compensatory increases in that year to certain social welfare groups but the net result was that every year since 1957 a sum of over £5 million is being saved by the Exchequer that formerly went towards subsidising these essential foodstuffs. It is against that background only that the present increases granted to old age pensioners, blind pensioners and those others of the social welfare assistance group that have been included, can be examined.

We can be forgiven if we are not enthusiastic about or loud in our praise of this belated and inadequate increase. It certainly loses much of its flavour when we realise that in 1909 under an alien Government the sum of 5/- then granted to the old aged had the same purchasing power as the present 25/- a week of the old aged pensioners. It is a poor tribute to our native Government that the standard of living of our aged poor has so little increased as to be measured by the pittance which will only now be above the 5/- level of 1909.

I would appeal to the Minister, although it is not his responsibility to make representations to the local authorities, to ensure that this increase of 2/6, small and badly needed as it is, will not be taken into consideration by the home assistance authorities in reckoning the allowances payable to some of the old people. It would be deplorable if the generosity of the Minister in granting this increase, because of the urgent need that he and the whole community see for it, were to be vitiated by the action of the local authorities who may seek justification for withholding it on the grounds that rates are already too high.

Believing, as I do, in the justice of the increase given to the home assistance group, I do not quarrel with the Minister's method of finding that money. However, it must be clear to everybody that the Budget was strained and a particular adjustment was made to permit this money to be paid. I wonder, were it not for the coming referendum and the Presidential election, if such a manipulation of the figures would have been resorted to. The conservative attitude of the Minister in other years would give good grounds for such thoughts as those. I think it was Deputy Brennan of Donegal who, on Thursday last, accused members of the Opposition of blowing hot and cold, some saying it was an election Budget, others that there was nothing in the Budget at all. I do not want to be accused of that line of thought. My own personal view is that were the Minister not faced with certain problems, some arising from the British Budget and others arising from the fact that the referendum and the Presidential election are about to take place, we might well have had a different statement last Wednesday.

Tax reliefs costing £1,600,000 have been given in this Budget and they cover a wide variety of groups embracing practically the whole community. I cannot help thinking that, even if part of that sum were retained, all the social welfare groups, some of whom are omitted now, such as orphans or single people on unemployment assistance, who have to struggle on on a pittance, very often on the verge of starvation, might well have been included.

Included in that sum of £1,600,000 is £600,000 for forms of entertainment which cover cinemas, dancing, track-racing and boxing. Practically all of the concession will find its way back into the pockets of promoters of these entertainments. The Minister indicated that the public were not to expect other than that. Whatever case might be made for the cinemas and the danger of loss in employment unless a tax concession is given to them, I feel that very little can be said on the other scores. Even in relation to the cinema, I feel the question of tax is not the important thing. Emigration and the evergrowing popularity of television in this country will, as in other countries, reduce attendance at cinemas and consequently reduce the employment content there.

As has been found here and elsewhere, if employment in a business dwindles due to the creation of a counter-attraction, those who lose their employment in one way are made up for by those employed or re-employed in the new venture. I feel sure that the tax concession can but stave off the day when a change will take place and resort to further measures of a much different kind will have to take place. I suggest that if some of the concessions could be passed on to the cinema patrons the same objects could be achieved.

Some forms of entertainment have not a large employment content. The Minister said, in relation to dancing, that the funds raised were generally for charity or philanthropic work. Those who live in the country, in particular, know that there is a good deal of fund-raising for various types of organisations through the holding of dances but it is mainly to the professional dance-hall owner that the benefit of this concession will go. Perhaps we should not be too surprised at that. I remember another Budget when the very same concession was made to the same gentlemen— and at a time when taxes were being imposed on the working people. There would be some reason or excuse—if you like that word better—if the remission were given to some form of entertainment that could claim to be at least of some cultural value. An examination of the people who will benefit under this concession will reveal that they cannot make any serious claim to importance either in the educational or cultural fields.

I was surprised that the Minister indicated, and later confirmed by a White Paper, a remission of special import levies in respect of which a sum of £200,000 has been allocated. When the inter-Party Government found that imports were exceeding exports by a very high figure they were driven to imposing these levies. How effective they were was proved within six or eight months. This Government saw fit to change that; it is their right. I was amazed at the proposal practically to wipe out the special import levies in toto. It is true that the present Government have a different view on the matter from that of the inter-Party Government. The mere fact that the money has been changed to the current account rather than to the capital account, as the inter-Party Government proposed to do, is indicative of that.

Last week, just after the Budget, the daily papers published a statement from the Central Statistics Office pointing out that for the three months ending March last the balance of trade showed that imports exceeded exports by £6,000,000 more than for the same three months of the previous year. That increase of £6,000,000 on the corresponding three months of the previous year would seem to show that this is not the time to reduce taxation on importable articles mainly of the type the inter-Party Government considered we could manage without at least for a time.

With regard to the reduction in income tax, I suppose the country in general will welcome the reduction in direct taxation. The Minister pointed out that the human element, that is, the working person, in our industrial economy must be considered and encouraged. That is quite true. I would point out that the vast number of ordinary working people—those in factories, shops, farms and on the roads—all belong to the lower-scale group of income tax payers. It could be said that were it not for the overtime or bonus earned for increased output most of them would not be liable to tax at all. If encouragement is needed one would expect an upward increase in the allowances, to bring them outside the scope of income tax, which would be more appropriate than the reduction of threepence for the lower-scale group. In contrast, the higher-scale group—mostly white-collar workers—with salaries ranging from £1,000 upwards, get a 50 per cent. better allocation and surtax to the tune of £160,000 is being handed back.

Just as it is recognised that an increase in the ceiling of insurable employment from £600 to £800 is necessary because the value of money has decreased, I feel it would be more equitable that the earned income allowance for ordinary workers should be increased and that those least well able to pay, and who do most of the donkey work of production, should get the benefit of whatever concessions are possible. It is the same pattern right through. We find the conservative approach of depending on progress by encouraging those who are the producers and who invest money in business rather than those who put into business all that God has given them, namely their health, strength and goodwill to produce.

I was interested to hear the last speaker suggest that the Minister should be careful in connection with the introduction of the P.A.Y.E. system. The trade unions generally have welcomed the proposal to introduce that system. The Minister must know the difficulty confronting workers when called upon to pay income tax in the year following that in which the money was earned. We know what workers do with their wages, the very small wages, having regard to the cost of living, available for the working man in this country. Every penny the worker earns is spent week by week and if, in the January following the year in which he worked, he receives a demand for £10 or £15 income tax, it is practically impossible for him to pay it. The final result is that the Revenue Commissioners notify the employer to deduct the entire sum in one week or a percentage for a number of weeks. It frequently happens that the wife and family of that working man have to go short while that payment is being made.

The P.A.Y.E. system will help not only the worker but will help the State, inasmuch as money which is now lost to the revenue by workers emigrating when faced with these demands, will be secured each week and any readjustments necessary can be made at the end of the year. If workers should have the misfortune to be unemployed for a period, there is a possibility that, as is the case in Great Britain, during the period of unemployment, they will be recouped the amount of excess income tax paid. Employers are overstating the difficulties involved in this system. Whatever the difficulties may be, the responsibility of operating the P.A.Y.E. system or a system of weekly deductions from employees' pay packets is a burden that should be placed on industry. That should be done as quickly as possible.

Encouragement is being given to the Minister to reduce the Civil Service. It is ridiculous that a sensible Deputy should state in this House that the Minister should fix arbitrarily on five per cent. of the Civil Service and direct heads of Departments to do without that percentage and to run the service as efficiently as formerly. If it were as easy as that, employers who engage time and motion experts and such people to indicate how staffs can be reduced without interfering with output, are very foolish indeed. Again, of course, there are the organisations to which civil servants belong. They will have a say. The Minister would be very well advised not to take such an arbitrary decision as he is being pressed to do in the House to-day. It is quite a good line to hear the proposals of his advisers, to discuss with the various organisations representing civil servants and to get their views and, if possible, to get some measure of conformity and agreement with any proposal. The mere fact that one prefaces his remarks by saying that one does not want any civil servants dismissed does not get away from the fact that it is a proposal to reduce the employment content of the Service, to make existing workers in that Service work harder, which is equivalent to saying that they should get less pay. That type of proposal is not in the interests of the country.

The Civil Service is much maligned but in my experience as a Deputy I have found a good deal of wisdom, a good deal of sagacity and intelligence in every letter, every proposal, every recommendation made by the various officials with whom I have come in contact. Civil servants are paid only what is right for giving us a very efficient and a very courteous service.

I shall sum up the effects of the Budget as I see it as a whole. The social welfare increases are inadequate and not sufficiently embracing. In Great Britain and Northern Ireland old people are paid far in excess of what we are paying here. While it is not possible for us to reach the level reached in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, much greater effort must be made if we are ever to attract our people, our colleagues, our fellow-countrymen in the North to view favourably a proposal to merge into the Republic. The concessions to entertainment do not appear to be justified at this particular moment. It is a strange thing that a sum of £200,000 should be handed back to those who provide amusement while a single person in receipt of unemployment assistance receives as little as 19/- a week. Such a person is expected to survive on that meagre allowance while £200,000, that could quite easily be collected, is handed out for amusement. The removal of the special import levies appears to be inopportune. The income tax concessions, although welcomed by the country, could have been given in a better way. It is quite true that the Minister was under certain compulsion. Due to the reduction of income tax in Britain, he was compelled, in order to maintain at the same level the differential between Great Britain and this country, to employ the method described in his Budget.

It will be interesting to see how the Government's prophecies are fulfilled in that connection, namely, that there will be an upward swing in employment. Those of us who are concerned from the labour point of view will measure the progress, not from the point of view of the balance of payments or balance of trade, but from the point of view of the increase in employment and the reduction in emigration that may follow.

The figures published in the booklet Economic Statistics issued prior to the Budget make depressing reading and give a rather depressing picture of the state of the national economy. In Table VIII, it shows that the gross national product at constant market prices in 1958 was £526,000,000 compared with £538,000,000 in 1957 and £528.6 million in 1956. These figures, taken in conjunction with other figures which I shall read later, indicate that all is not well with the state of our economy and that it will require the concerted efforts of all sections to effect an improvement.

It seems to me that there is too much destructive criticism from many different quarters concerning the state of the country. It is easy to see what is wrong and what should be changed; what is not so easy is to provide a remedy, or remedies, for these economic problems. Listening to this discussion, and having examined as carefully as one can the figures presented in the very informative Economic Statistics, it appears that we should concentrate on the area of agreement existing between Parties and seek to widen the area rather than the reverse, and that too much time is spent making debating points by showing where differences exist, or by enlarging points of disagreement.

While this may be good for Parties at a particular time, it seems that it is not good for the country. Undoubtedly, the lack of progress has been due to a very considerable extent to politics and personalities. If impending changes on the political scene will mean an end to these disastrous activities, then the sooner these changes occur the better. In recent months, very full proposals have been published of aims of economic policy, or desiderata which should be achieved. To a great extent, these proposals have been sponsored not only by the present Government but by the previous Government and they have secured general acceptance from interested outside bodies.

In considering these, however, insufficient attention is being paid to a number of the conclusions which have been drawn in these reports and the indices contained in some of the figures quoted in them. These reports laid down certain aims for agriculture, for an expansionist policy and dealt with certain aspects of agricultural policy. In that connection, I should like to ask what steps have been taken to implement the recommendations concerning marketing and the linking of the marketing arrangements and the price structure between this country and Britain? On page 212 of Economic Development, a suggestion is made that a bi-lateral beef policy would be of mutual benefit and would accord with modern internationalism in economic affairs. Having previously referred to the importance of the British market to Irish producers and the importance of the Irish supply to Britain, it suggests that it argues a joint approach.

The last agreement concerning trade which was made between the two countries was made over ten years ago. Many changes have since occurred and while, in the main, the 1948 agreement has worked well, very few modifications have been made in it. For that reason, it seems that in the light of the careful analysis which was made by the various Departments and which is contained in the report I have referred to, now is the time for a fresh look at that agreement with a view to effecting either a new agreement, if such is necessary, or whatever changes are deemed desirable in the light of changed circumstances.

A somewhat later agreement in respect of pigs, coupled with the guaranteed price which was effected by means of the maintenance of, in certain cases, an Exchequer subsidy, did for a while work satisfactorily. All the indications are that the pig industry is an industry which depends probably more than others on stable price conditions and the drop for the first three months of this year of 70,000 pigs delivered to the bacon factories indicated the serious effects which a change in price can have. In view of the substantial rise in recent years in the value of bacon exports, it is important to maintain that position. In 1956, the export of bacon and hams amounted to £2,000,000. It increased to £4.3 million in 1957 and last year it went up to £8.1 million. That is a valuable trade and it is important that careful attention should be paid to maintaining price stability so that there will be no deleterious effect on the numbers of pigs reared and sent for curing.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

In order that progress should be continuous, stable conditions are essential and, while it is difficult, if not impossible, to secure those conditions, so far as external prices are concerned, certainly where the prices fixed are within the control of the Government here, it is important to maintain stability and to avoid fluctuations.

The figures given in Table V of Economic Statistics indicate that 1958 was a year of decline in agricultural output and while that may be due to a considerable extent to abnormal weather conditions, undoubtedly prices had a part to play. The very exceptional prices which obtained for cattle in 1957 were slightly reduced last year and also the reduction in the prices paid for wheat and milk delivered to creameries, as well as the weather, probably influenced production to an extent.

For that reason, I believe the Government should consider this whole question of a new, or certainly a revised, trade agreement with Britain. We have a number of other trade agreements with Continental countries and, while in many respects these agreements have been satisfactory and have afforded an outlet for a variety of commodities, in the main, trade with Continental countries is unsatisfactory, in that we import substantially more from these countries than we export to them. Most trade agreements with these countries were made many years ago. Some of them were revised on a yearly basis, or every few years. In a few cases, new agreements were negotiated. The time has arrived, particularly in view of the heavy adverse balance which characterises our trading with almost all Continental countries, when steps should be taken to see that these agreements are implemented in practice by the other countries and that no measures are taken which will prevent the full exploitation of the advantages of the agreements from our point of view.

If we are to recover the ground which was lost last year, more strenuous efforts will be needed, both on the agricultural and industrial fronts. The drop of £9,000,000 last year in agricultural income undoubtedly had a depressing effect, more especially when prices and costs continued to increase and inevitably meant that people continued and are continuing to leave employment on the land.

Reference has been made to the fact —without quoting any firm figures which would indicate what the position is—that emigration appears to have dropped. If the numbers in employment given in Table XII of Economic Statistics are taken in conjunction with a reply which was given last year in the British House of Commons, the position does not appear to be so satisfactory. Last year the total at work in the country was 1,131,000 compared with 1,163,000 in 1956 which would indicate that there was a drop of 32,000 persons. If the figure is taken of those not presently at work for any reason, either unemployable or in hospital, the figure shows a drop of 25,000.

Last year, for the first ten months, according to a figure given in reply to the question I have mentioned, 48,000 new applicants from Ireland got employment permits in Britain between 1st of January and 31st October, so that in round figures about 50,000 employment permits were issued in Britain last year to persons from this country. While it is true there is some drop in the numbers unemployed, when account is taken off the large number of new applicants for employment cards in Britain and the fact that the total at work is down in two years by 32,000, the picture is anything but satisfactory. This persistent problem of a high level of emigration has continued, as the Economic Survey indicates, under all Governments and in peace and war. For that reason, it is vital that we should endeavour to take whatever steps are possible to improve the economy by reducing taxation. The present administrative structure is too large and expensive for the country. The reference made by the Minister in the course of the Budget statement showed that the total cost of the Civil Service, Defence Forces, Garda and teachers, amounts to over £34 million, almost half the figure being made up by the cost of the Civil Service.

This is a matter which has been the subject of consideration by Governments over a number of years, and it is easy to say that an overhaul of the Civil Service is necessary. The general standard of the Civil Service —of all civil servants—is high, but the system is in many respects outmoded and requires to be modernised with a view to efficiency. Delay in dealing with this matter means a continuation of an excessively costly administrative machine. The matter has been the subject of Departmental examination for a number of years and it ought to be possible, in conjunction with the Civil Service staff associations and in the light of the experience gained by the examination that has been conducted, to devise a system in accordance with the needs of the country.

That does not mean dismissing and dispensing with the services of redundant civil servants. The new system to be put into operation should not affect existing serving civil servants who should be allowed to work out their time, but should mean that in the future—in the very near future—a new Civil Service system, in accordance with the needs of the country, would be put into operation. This procedure will not yield spectacular economies immediately but will provide an efficient and an economical administrative machine without causing hardship to those employed in the Civil Service. It is obvious that so far as possible State Departments should be run on the lines of an efficient business concern and, when criticism is made of the way the machine works, a great deal of unintentional and unnecessary criticism is expressed against officials where what is really at fault is the outdated system that has been allowed to continue in operation in entirely different circumstances. While demands for new and different services have grown, no worthwhile effort has been made to provide an administrative structure that would provide a machine suited to our requirements, and in keeping with the population of this country.

The whole fabric of the State structure, almost in every section from the top down, is top heavy for the size of the country. Sometimes views are expressed that we have to maintain certain standards for prestige purposes but prestige spending, in the main, gives a bad return and is responsible for a make-believe attitude in place of the realism which is needed in the competitive conditions existing at the present time. That lack of realism gives rise to a cynical reaction on the part of many who have to face the realities of a lack of employment and opportunity, and yet see a great deal of unnecessary expenditure in an effort to maintain a structure that is artificial and unsuited to the needs and capacity of this country.

The Economic Survey reveals some very important facts. Repeated efforts have been made by different Governments to start new industries and to provide employment. Whenever a new industry is successfully launched, bouquets are handed out all around, but if we look at some of the industries already established, we see they have declined. Attention is drawn to that in the Economic Survey on page 167 where reference is rightly made to the importance of industries based on agricultural products. It says there, in Chapter 17, paragraph 1:—

In 1929 exports of biscuits exceeded £500,000 and imports were only £11,000. Exports had declined by 1940 to £298,000 while imports increased to £19,000. In 1957, exports were valued at only £86,000 (of which £84,000 went to the Six Counties) while imports were valued at £120,000.

It goes on to say:

The substitution of an import trade for a once flourishing export trade is most regrettable. The development of an export business would be most helpful from the employment and balance of payments aspects.

It continues:

If capital should prove to be a limiting factor, the Industrial Credit Company should be able to provide the necessary facilities....

I believe that the factors contributing to that decline should be the subject of a most exhaustive examination, by the Department of Industry and Commerce and Department of Finance, to see what steps are possible to regain the valuable trade which once existed.

It is true that in connection with another industry which I propose to mention, taxation has a direct impact on its development. In paragraph 10 of the same chapter, reference is made to the distilling industry. It gives the average export figures for three pre-war years, 1937, 1938 and 1939, which amounted to approximately 230,000 gallons a year with a financial value of £179,000. In the post-war period, exports of whiskey grew steadily from 1948 to 1951, reaching a peak in the later year of 438,000 gallons valued at £558,000. They decreased steeply in the next three years but have since begun to recover. Undoubtedly in this connection taxation has a direct effect. In 1952, the effect of the tax on spirits had a serious reaction and exports in 1954 were down to a total of 127,000 gallons, valued at £224,000. They recovered, in 1957, to 194,000 gallons, worth £333,000. As paragraph 11 says:

"While total exports of whiskey are now above the pre-war level in value, because of higher prices, they are still below that level in volume and they are 50 per cent. less in volume than in 1950-51."

As I said, very often a great deal of attention and effort—governmental, ministerial, departmental and, in some cases, local—is put into the establishment of a new industry; but these two valuable industries, using homegrown raw materials, providing substantial employment, producing a commodity equal to the best produced anywhere and providing in many cases male employment, have been seriously affected, in the one case, by taxation and, in the other, by causes of which I believe a careful examination should be conducted.

That leads me to the other matter I wish to refer to. When the levies were imposed in 1956 in order to correct the adverse trade balance, one of the commodities on which a levy was placed was newsprint, in order to restrict at that time the importation of newsprint. During the course of the past year, the Minister, in reply to questions, said he would consider it in conjunction with this year's Budget. Although the Budget has been introduced, the duty on newsprint is still maintained. One firm alone, Independent Newspapers, Ltd., employs, directly or indirectly, a thousand persons. Taking the other daily papers and the weekly and provincial papers, the total number employed, both directly and indirectly, in the newspaper industry is very considerable. For that reason, the amount of money involved, while falling heavily enough on the industry concerned, is, from the Exchequer point of view, not very considerable, and certainly in the manner in which the balance was made up this year, not a frightening figure.

It is therefore clear that in the case of this existing established industry— an industry which exists without State protection, without State assistance of any sort, which provides well paid employment, which is decentralised in the sense that a great many of these newspapers are located in small towns or comparatively small towns throughout the country, as well as providing employment in Dublin—the continuation of the tax is unwarranted, more especially at a time when attractive inducements are being offered to foreign participants in industry here. This is another case of losing sight of existing valuable employment. The other two cases I mentioned—the biscuit industry and the distilling industry—both indicate and show what serious effects—certainly in the case of distilling; the biscuit industry is somewhat different—taxation can have on employment, exports and on trade generally. It is for that reason I hope the examples which they show and the effects which taxation had on the distilling industry will serve as a reminder that a similar reaction might occur in respect of those affected by the tax on newsprint. I believe the Minister should seriously consider the remission of that tax.

During the course of discussions which have taken place, and particularly during the last general election, there was a good deal of talk on marketing and the need for improved marketing conditions. In 1957, a sum of £500,000 was provided for the establishment of a marketing committee. It is true that the establishment of the committee was delayed somewhat. Now that it has been established, I understand two interim reports have been presented. Rumour has it that one of these deals with bacon. If this committee is to have any value, surely the reports should be made available to the public, more especially when the number of pigs sent to the factories for the first quarter of this year shows a drop of 70,000.

It is strange that in those circumstances these reports have not been published, because Government spokesmen during the last election spoke a great deal about improved marketing conditions. I understand the sum provided was not spent, or very little of it used, in the first 12 months. Now that the committee has furnished two reports, it ought to be possible for the public to see them and for those interested to get the benefit of the examination which that committee has conducted into marketing problems. The figures for the current quarter indicate that the import excess is growing again this year. These tendencies will require to be kept under review if some of the problems which existed previously do not recur again.

During the past two years, there has been a spectacular and continuous rise in the cost of living. Table 10 of Economic Statistics shows that the consumer price index increased from 107.7 in February, 1957 to 117.7 in February of this year. While that occurred, import prices dropped from 117.2 in February, 1957 to 107.3 in November, 1958. So that, while consumers here had to pay more for essentials, the goods that individuals imported here dropped in price substantially. What is even more significant is the fact that the price of bread, flour and butter increased substantially, while, at the same time, less was paid to our farmers for wheat and for milk supplied to the creameries. It is obvious that there is something wrong with an economic policy when, while import prices are declining continuously and while we pay less to our own producers for wheat and for milk supplied to the creameries, we charge our own consumers 3½d. more for a 2 lb. loaf, flour having increased by 70 per cent. and butter by 7d. per lb.

These facts undoubtedly compelled the Government to introduce the increase of 2/6 in old age, widows' and blind pensions. Evidently the Minister and his colleagues in Government consider that the increase in the cost of living justifies this increase in pensions. The Minister for Social Welfare must have approved of it. I suggest to the Minister that he should advise the Minister for Social Welfare to instruct the officials of his Department not to take the incidence of this increase into consideration in connection with the granting of home assistance. When a Minister has approved an increase, his officials should not try to whittle down the benefit of that increase by reducing home assistance. The fear that that may happen now is disturbing a number of possible recipients. There can be, in my opinion, no justification for such reduction.

The Minister in his Budget Statement referred to the fact that there is agreement on both sides of the House that taxation should be levied on expenditure rather than on income. Very often there is a slender balance between the level at which revenue can be maintained, or increased, and the rate at which it will depress production. Any easement, therefore, in the burden of taxation must undoubtedly stimulate production and, at the same time, act as an incentive. The heavy rate of taxation here has been a deterrent to further expansion. Many foreigners who come in here with the object of establishing industries are deterred from doing so because of the high rate of taxation. It is important, then, that taxation should be maintained at a stable level over as many commodities as possible at the same time and for as long as possible.

The very sharp drop to which I referred earlier in the case of distilling is an indication that, once penal taxes are imposed, the effect is very far-reaching. Improvement is slow, and very often long delayed. It is desirable from every point of view that taxation should be maintained at a stable level because nothing is more conducive to economic expansion than stable marketing conditions and stable taxation. Violent fluctuations act as a deterrent and cause not merely dislocation in industry generally but also frighten off those who might otherwise be induced to come in here to establish new industries.

I welcome this Budget. In my experience it has been received with approbation throughout my constituency. In two years the Minister has succeeded in restoring stability, confidence and prosperity to the country. Compare March and April of 1957 with March and April of this year. We, in Fianna Fáil, have a good deal of which to be proud. We have taken the country out of the economic mess in which we found it two years ago. Credit is available for those who wish to establish industries. Credit is also available for farmers. Considerable sums have been put at the disposal of the Industrial Credit Company and the Agricultural Credit Corporation respectively. Credit for housing is also available as compared with two years ago when our building trade had collapsed.

The reliefs given in the Budget are very welcome. Pensions have been increased. Certain relief has been given to the greyhound industry. Certain relief has also been given to the cinemas. All these prove that prosperity is abroad today. I hope that trend will continue. The Minister deserves to be warmly congratulated on doing a very good job of work for the nation. I fear however that some of the industrialists whom we have helped and protected over the years are not playing their part.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

This is the third time——

Is this a point of order?

It is. This is the third time the bells had to be rung this afternoon for a quorum.

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of order.

I understand now that it is the fourth or fifth time. It is a disgrace for the Government Party. Surely the Minister for Finance could arrange with the Party Whip to provide a quorum?

How can the Government Party be expected to do so, when there is no one here from Fine Gael or Labour? Are we to debate the Budget among ourselves? Have the other Parties no interest in it at all?

Of course we have. Are we not here to speak on it? Is that not why we are here?

I am sorry the Opposition are taking this Budget so badly.

They cannot take it.

I was dealing with the economic side of our economy. Fianna Fáil has succeeded in giving 100 per cent. protection to all our industries and has helped them in every possible way. We have done everything possible as a Party to give employment within the nation. We succeeded in reviving old industries and starting new industries. We did everything possible and our general policy was not to import one pound's worth of goods that we could produce here. Now we have reached saturation point with certain products and, from the national economic point of view, unless we can get into the export market to a greater extent we cannot succeed in giving more employment to our people. I do not see that any good will come from short term policies for unproductive schemes which would not keep our people in constant employment. Schemes of that character would perhaps provide employment for them only for one week and let them go the next.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Finance and the Government as a whole have tried to encourage industrialists to avail of the export market. They have given tax reliefs and special insurance schemes. They have instructed our diplomatic and trade representatives abroad to assist them in every way possible. Any industrialist going into the export market has received special encouragement by loans at reasonable rates.

A previous speaker spoke of the by-products of agriculture. We are all anxious to see that agriculture and its by-products get priority and they have got priority down through the years. However, we must be deeply concerned when we compare certain by-products of agriculture with the by-products in a small country across the water, that is, Scotland. I am dealing with a very hackneyed subject on which I have spoken on many occasions, the export of whiskey.

I wish to make an appeal here to those engaged in the whiskey trade. They have a golden opportunity to come together. Governments cannot do everything; the Minister for Finance or the Minister for Industry and Commerce cannot do everything. In a democratic State, all they can do is give advice and encouragement. If schemes are put up to help a company or a group of companies, we can be assured that every assistance will be given, as far as the resources of the State allow it. However, I am totally dissatisfied with the fact that our whiskey distillers have not succeeded in selling more whiskey.

That would be a matter for the Estimate.

I am dealing with this solely as a by-product of agriculture. I am disappointed that those producing it are not making a better job of it, bearing in mind the way the Scottish whiskey distillers have achieved success in their endeavours. However, I have dealt with that matter often before. I merely point out now that we are a very long way behind. As regards our main exportable goods, agricultural by-products or industrial products, any help for the export trade, from whatever section that help comes, will be welcomed by everybody in the country and by posterity also.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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