When the debate was adjourned last week, I had just commenced to deal with a few matters relating to prisons. The amount of useful and valuable work performed by the prison staffs is something which I feel should be given a little more State recognition. The staffs of the various prisons have an extremely difficult job. Their job would be impossible if they had not the co-operation of the prisoners. Generally speaking, the prison staffs are made up of men of very great ability, with a very high standard of education, who realise they have a very great national duty to perform.
I wonder has the attention of the Minister been directed to the duties performed by the prison officers day after day, enclosed as they are in the prisons practically to the same extent as prisoners? In addition to the services they have to render to their superior officers, they must endeavour by their example, by their words and their methods of teaching, to put the prisoners back on right and proper lines in life.
A good deal could be done, and it would be unreasonable and unfair on my part if I did not admit that a lot has been done in recent years, in endeavouring to avoid embittering the prisoner against life and in the endeavours to give him some hope so that when his sentence has expired, he will go out of the prison a better man than when he went in.
I hope it is in order to refer to a gentleman who is now in retirement— the Governor of Portlaoise Prison, Major Barrows. It was interesting to see the volume of correspondence which he received from time to time from ex-prisoners, expressing their gratitude and their thanks, and letting him know how they were getting on in the outside world. Men who spend anything from three to ten years in prison cannot be compared with those imprisoned in Mountjoy for a period of a fortnight to six months. Even in short-term prisons such as Mountjoy, an effort should be made by example and method, if possible, to change the mind and the outlook of the prisoner. That is not an easy job; it is indeed a rather difficult job. It is one that is comparatively easy in a prison where long sentences are being served. I am glad to say, it is realised by the majority of those engaged in the work that their efforts should be aimed towards directing the prisoner, so that when he leaves, he will not feel an outcast in the world. While he is behind the grey walls of the prison, he should be equipped with a trade, with a better understanding of good citizenship, and with a better education, if possible. His detention in prison should not be for the purpose of punishment, but should be a term in which he will be given the necessary facilities to look into and examine his life and to examine his attitude towards his fellow men.
In prisons where long-term sentences are served, efforts should be made to introduce reforms to rehabilitate the prisoner so that when his sentence has expired, he will be a better citizen. There should be evening classes in drama and first-aid because it is very important that advantage should be taken of the opportunity to improve the character of a person in prison for a long number of years. Apart from drama classes and the exercise available to the prisoner in very limited prison space, he should get a thorough instruction in first-aid. In addition to that, all kinds of literature, on whatever subjects the prisoner may choose, should be made available and he should be given whatever time he may desire for the study of those subjects.
Sufficient stationery should always be available for him if he desires to undertake a course in mathematics, or if he wishes to refresh his mind on arithmetic, or whatever line of study or thought he may desire to follow up. Much good could be done, if a large measure of cooperation existed between the trade unions and the Department of Justice in that regard. There are competent tradesmen in the prison service and if a certain amount of cooperation with the trade unions existed, a young prisoner who has unfortunately to serve a long sentence, should be given an opportunity of being apprenticed to the prison tradesmen, whether carpenters, bricklayers, electricians or plumbers. I hope in saying that, I am not treading unduly on the toes of the trade unions.
When a man enters prison, he should not be looked upon as a complete outcast. As St. Thomas Aquinas said when an unfortunate sinner was being carried through the streets: "There, but for the grace of God, go I." Credit is due to Deputy Everett and Deputy MacEoin as former Ministers for Justice, and to the present Minister, in that in the past 15 or 20 years, conditions have improved immensely in an attempt to make the prisoner a better man. That is a line of action which should not be changed.
In his contribution to the debate, Deputy Dillon dealt with juvenile crime. It is most unfortunate that young children should find themselves in the grip of the law so early in their lives. That is probably due to lack of control on the part of parents, or to bad company, or perhaps to a little wildness or some wild strain there may be in a child who is not properly controlled. In my opinion, before those children are sentenced they should be medically examined, and whatever treatment is prescribed as a result of such examination, should be carried out. The Department of Justice should be slow to put the stigma of imprisonment on the character of such children who may only be wild. We know they do strange and wild things, but which one of us did not do something extraordinary or wild when we were young? We were fortunate in that we escaped falling foul of the law.
When children are committed to an institution the officers responsible for them are endeavouring not to punish them but to educate and sympathise with them. If a man gets a term of imprisonment or if a child is sent to an industrial school it is sympathy and attention he requires and I am glad to say that the outlook in the prisons and in these industrial schools has changed for the better in this respect. I hope that will be encouraged by the Minister and that the officers in charge will be given proper pay in recognition of their services.
The prison officers have a thankless job. It is a great calling for the man who likes his job and takes an interest in the prisoners, but these officers are underpaid. I would ask the Minister to examine this question during the coming financial year and to arrive at a new scale whereby there will be substantial increases in pay for prison officers. I am not making that plea because of the large number of prison officers who reside in my constituency but in respect of all the prison officers throughout the country. They have a very difficult job and it is not every man who is fitted to spend his life in the prison service. I hope that grievance, which has been outlined by the Prison Officers' Association and referred to at a recent annual conference, will be remedied by the Minister.
An effort should also be made to provide houses for prison officers. A number of houses are already provided for them in Portlaoise but all of them ought to be provided with a residence. I do not know how many prison residences were erected under native Government. I presume all the prison houses erected in Portlaoise and at Mountjoy were erected when the British were in control in this country. Married prison attendants, especially the younger men who came into the service in recent years, ought not to be put in the embarrassing position of having to seek houses from the local authority. The provision of houses for all prison officers would mean that the houses they already occupy would be available for persons who fall within the category normally housed by the local authorities.
There is also a need to provide houses for the Garda. The numbers of the Garda have been cut down very much in the past few years. Whether it was the policy of the last Government or is the policy of this Government, it is unwise. However, I shall deal with that later. The question of housing for the Garda has been brought up in this House on more than one occasion. A number of Garda barracks have been erected throughout the country but these barracks have living accommodation only for the sergeant and his family. It is humiliating that a Garda should have to go from street to street looking for a vacant flat or room. Where you have five or six members of the force attached to a station, a site should be acquired by the Office of Public Works, and the Minister for Justice ought to make the necessary provision for the building of these houses on the one site. If separate sites were to be made available there would be legal costs involved in connection with the transfer of the sites, the title, and so on. Therefore, an effort should be made to acquire a site to build a number of houses according to the Garda strength in the district.
A substantial sum of money is already paid out in rent allowances to the Garda but it would be wiser to put that money towards building decent houses for them. It would not be a great strain on the Exchequer. A Garda, as an officer of the law, is to be respected as such. He must maintain a certain amount of independence and dignity which he cannot maintain if he is living in the corner of some other person's room, if he has to seek permission to have his pram carried up the stairs or to have the back door of the flat opened to gain exit or entry. We are too long tinkering with this problem. No section of the taxpayers would grudge proper housing accommodation to the men who safeguard our lives and property, protection which is more than ever necessary at the present time.
The programme in respect of new Garda barracks has progressed very much but it is far from being complete. Throughout the country there are a number of disgraceful old shacks unworthy to be called Garda barracks. Many of them are unsafe and unfit for habitation and the Department of Justice, in consultation with the Office of Public Works, should present the Minister with proposals for an entirely new scheme of Garda barracks where required. I referred in the last day's debate to the remote country districts and I do not desire to repeat my remarks. However, I wish to refer to rural districts where Garda stations have closed and where Gardaí have had to leave because of the lack of accommodation. New Garda stations ought to be erected.
The present Minister, or some Minister for Justice in the future, will have to meet the Minister for Finance when the right time comes to deal with all these problems. Matters are so complicated and so knotted with red tape that it is not possible to do all one would like to see done in a short space of time. Nevertheless, a start must be made and I know the Minister for Justice is one who would like to see all these things accomplished. The question arises as to the money with which to do this work and there is little use in tinkering with this Estimate. We want to do the job right, provide the money, get the money and spend the money and give at least a measure of comfort to people we expect a return from, to people in that line.
I do not agree with the policy of closing Garda stations. That policy is asking for trouble and inviting crime. To close down Garda stations in wild remote areas is wrong. It might not be too difficult to close down Garda stations where you think you have law and order established—but how was it established? Was it not established because the Gardaí were there and were available and were conscientious men who did their duty without fear or favour?
It is only when the Gardaí are gone —it is like mice playing when the cat is away—that you will see an inclination to crime. It will be in a small and petty way at first but it will lead to bigger things. The new policy places too much confidence and reliance on a public spirit that is not there to the great extent we may think it is. One or two disturbers can be responsible for the loss of the good name of a community. This is bad policy. It is unsound and unwise and in the long run, it will tell a sad tale.
Some time ago, I put down a Parliamentary Question to the Minister for Justice in relation to the pay of members of the Garda. It seems strange and extraordinary that there are so many inspectors, superintendents and chief superintendents. If there is to be a pruning or cutting-down, why cut down on the men? There is the same number of superintendents and chief superintendents now as when the force was 1,500 strong.
A superintendent is in charge of so many stations. Right over him again is a chief superintendent and there are a number of chief superintendents in every area, whether they are grouped counties or otherwise. Is there anything the chief superintendent does that the superintendent cannot do? I have not been told whether or not there is, but, to the ordinary man in the street, it seems extraordinary that there are so many chief superintendents and superintendents. Has a chief superintendent any additional duties to do which the superintendent cannot carry out? It seems that the higher up you are in the Garda, the less you have to do. Everybody is looking at the ordinary Garda and inspecting him. People expect to see him on duty. His crime and evidence book must be written up; his patrol book must be written up; his duty book must be written up. He has the sergeant and the inspector and the superintendent and the chief superintendent keeping an eye on him.
What are the duties of a Garda particularly in relation to the extraordinary salary he is getting? I am not casting a reflection on any chief superintendent; I am referring to the amount of work the men do and the sergeants do—I do not know exactly where the inspectors come in—and I should be interested to have a clear picture of the Garda. It falls to my lot to attend the district court and the circuit court. I am not in any way connected with the legal profession. I have escaped that catastrophe. However, I often have to attend court in another capacity. Some months the superintendent is there, while other months the inspector is there. What is the difference between the inspector and the superintendent?
For the purpose of the records and information, I should like to know how many inspectors there are in the Garda and also how many superintendens and how many chief superintendents. I think we have 26 chief superintendents. I do not know in what way the Dublin Metropolitan District is divided but in the country it seems ridiculous. We should leave the existing chief superintendents as they are. They all did their job. Most of them came from the bottom of the ladder.
I love to meet and talk with the old member of the Garda who joined in 1923 and 1924. He can tell the stories and he knows the job. He is the old-timer who came up the hard way and built up the police force we have to-day. When he retired, he was not fully rewarded either in pension or gratuity. These old-timers in the Garda were great men and are great men even to this day. I hope the younger members of the force will take a leaf out of the old-timers' book. I should like to know from the Minister why arrangements have not been made with regard to the old-timers— the first men. There are not very many of them left in the force because the past three or four years have weeded out a number of them. They have a good record of proud work behind them and I hope the younger men in the force will follow in their footsteps.
The 1923 and 1924 men who joined the Garda and who had the difficult job of establishing law and order should be given some special recognition, as the first members of the force, now that they are ending their days in retirement, some of them beyond the sea, as many of them sought work when they retired from the force because their pensions were not sufficient. Many of them had their family difficulties and family responsibilities and it was not easy for them to get along when they retired. In view of the very limited number of such men, I think we ought to do something about it.
When the existing chief superintendents retire or die, I suggest there ought be no further appointments; that is an expression of opinion. Unless the Minister for Justice has some extraordinary reason for continuing the grade of chief superintendent, the taxpayer and the ordinary Garda do not see the necessity for the grade of superintendent and chief superintendent at the same time.
The Department would be well advised not to cut down on the number of Gardaí and not to close Garda stations. If there is to be a reduction in the numbers in the force, I suggest the Department should begin at the top. When the present chief superintendents retire, pay them well, give them proper recognition, give them a pension which will enable them to complete their days in contentment and happiness but do not make any appointments in their place. If we want to economise, let us save where saving will have the least possible adverse effect on the community. One way in which we can save is to cut down unnecessary appointments—and we have quite a number of them in the Garda and the Garda services.
I shall not refer to the plain clothes force, beyond saying that their job is even more difficult still. It takes a different type of man—a man of a certain standard of education with a liking for the police force and police work— to undertake the plain clothes side of the business. I do not think they, either, are sufficiently paid.
I do not feel obliged on this occasion to refer in detail to the transport section of the Garda but I do want to say that the officers of that section are as fine a type of men as are to be found in any part of this country and are not paid in relation to the amount of work they have to do in driving patrol cars or being in charge of State cars. No man ought to know better than the present Minister for Justice the valuable contribution made by the members of the transport section to this State down through the years. These men are prepared to stay out all night, to sit long hours and even days waiting. They have to care for the cars and know the mechanics and movements of the cars. They have to live up to a standard even higher than that which the ordinary Guard has to observe. For those reasons I would ask that special attention and consideration be given to these men.
I would be the least worthy person to comment in any way on the courts and I shall not comment on them in any way. It is nearly time a change was made with regard to the titles of justices and judges. We have reached the stage when we all have respect for the law and for the men administering the law and this business of addressing "My Lord" and saying "If it please your Lordship", "If it please your Worship", and so on, should be eliminated. This form of address, "Your Lordship", and appealing to "His Honour" and asking "His Lordship" to consider this, that and the other, came to us from the British and even though we are now trying to adopt the British system of election, a matter which does not come within the scope of this Estimate, we might be well advised to drop the British system of titles for judges and justices. We can have honourable judges, we can have plain, understanding judges and we can have the judge who is steeped in snobbery. It is rather degrading for any Irish professional man or citizen to have to bend his head or his knee in court and address his fellow citizen as "Your Worship,""Your Lordship", "Your Honour" and ask if it pleases him to consider this, that or the other.
We know that there must be some distinction drawn between the courthouse caretaker and the judge but the use of these forms of address is carried too far. It is high time that there was an investigation into the manner of addressing High Court judges, Circuit Court judges and other judges, particularly the snobbish type who love to hear themselves so addressed.