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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Apr 1959

Vol. 174 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 9—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

Before Questions, I was referring to column 610 of the Minister's Budget Statement of 23rd April last year. The Minister gave figures for 1957-58, 1956-57, 1955-56 and 1954-55—four years of figures of what he called net over-estimation. In the Minister's view, net over-estimation was the amount of general over-estimation he anticipated, less the general provision for Supplementary Estimates. For example, in the Budget of 1956, the amount taken for general over-estimation was £3,000,000 and the amount taken for Supplementary Estimates in global form was £750,000, thereby leaving the figure of £2¼ million the Minister clearly quoted last year. I might add that from the figures I have already given, it will be seen that the out-turn of over-estimation in that year was £2.48 million, as near as makes no difference to the gross figure of £3,000,000 to which I referred.

As I say, that was the practice that has always been taken every year in every Statement and was taken by the Minister last year in his Budget Statement. This year, however, as I was trying to explain to the Minister, when he came to circulate the Tables in connection with the Financial Statement of 1959, and in particular Table 1 thereof, he changed the basis in comparing the actuality with the estimate without telling this House or the country.

The figure of savings for net over-estimation of £1½ million was put in as being an estimate in the first column of that Table. Nothing was put in in the second column. But there is a note, note (b) which sets out that the Budget provides for a net adjustment of £1.5 million by way of deduction from expenditure to allow for errors of estimation. Then the out-turn goes on to show how that was arrived at. As I say, the Budget last year did not provide £1.5 million for a net adjustment for errors of estimation; it provided £1.5 million for over-estimation, and that is an entirely different thing.

When the Minister came to circulate the Tables this year, he compared, not over-estimation either gross or net, as was always done every year up to this, but over-estimation, less supplementaries plus revenue buoyancy. As far as I can find out, it is the first time there has been any effort to throw in the increase in revenue receipts of £1.667 million and to allege that that arose from over-estimation. It was only last night I suddenly saw why I was not getting the answers to some of the questions I asked in tabular form. It is because this might have emerged more clearly, when you saw the figures for each year under each other, instead of having to go through half a dozen books to take them out.

Last year, the actual over-estimation was £1.183 million gross. I do not know what sum the Minister allowed for general supplementaries, but it is quite clear that his anticipation of last year was not reached or anything like it. It was quite wrong of the Minister to try to slip across in Table 1 this year that the out-turn had been as he prophesied last year and that he was taking the same figure this year on the same basis as he had taken it last year, whereas it was on an entirely different basis. It now appears clear that the figure the Minister is taking of £2.5 million, if you adjust the figure for this year's account, is a figure, not merely for estimated excess of provision on the Supply Services, less Supplementary Estimates, but also takes into account a figure written in by the Minister for an increase in revenue receipts over the estimate.

We had many discussions here in the past in relation to the buoyancy of revenue. Buoyancy of revenue is shown, or should be shown, in the estimated receipts printed and published every year on the Saturday before Budget day. I shall not go into the processes—the Minister knows them quite well and I know them quite well —by which those revenue receipts are taken into account and by which they are arrived at. But the buoyancy is taken there and, to take it in addition to the £2,500,000 as the Minister has done as well, is not being fair on straight with the House or with the country.

If the Minister had come along to the House and frankly put all the facts before us and told us that in relation to last year's gross over-estimation— which he must, I think, have anticipated, as far as I can judge, at a figure of about £2,500,000 to £2,750,000 but which only reached £1,183,000— there were special circumstances last year why that was so, or, if he had come along to the House and put the facts clearly and fairly before the House and told us, regardless of how these figures had turned out in the past, in the circumstances of the country's economic position to-day it was desirable to give certain reliefs for the purpose of stimulating economic activity, apart altogether from Budgetary totting, I would have had no fault to find with him. But I am finding fault with him now.

I say quite deliberately that it has become quite fantastically childish in recent years for people to try to show that in one year a Budget balances and in another year it does not. It is entirely a matter of opinion whether one puts certain items to capital account and capital services or whether, when one is framing certain legislation, one puts the issues which are to go for that legislation into capital services or into below-the-line issues. What we should do at all times is take the general picture of our absolutely current expenditure and also the capital expenditure we want to generate, take our balance accordingly, and frame our plans according to the economic position in which we find ourselves at any particular time.

That might mean that in certain years we would have, and deliberately budget for, a surplus. In certain years we would deliberately budget for a deficit. In other years we would deliberately budget for a lineball. When I am speaking of budgeting now, I am speaking of budgeting in relation to what are called known capital services and, perhaps, on occasions certain below-the-line issues. We have taken far too rigid a line and tried to give ourselves pats on the back, or something else, and tried to denigrate our opponents because figures come out on a tot one way or the other.

All that matters of course—I agree entirely with Deputy Haughey in this —is the general economic position at the time and the manner in which it should be faced and dealt with. To say the least of it, it is regrettable that the Minister did not do things in that way and that he tried instead to put over a cheap change of phrasing, tried to pretend in Table 1 that he was comparing like with like, tried to suggest in his Budget Statement that he was making a figure for over-estimation on the same basis as he made it last year, and as his predecessors made it in the years before, when it would appear from the outturn for 1959 in relation to gross over-estimation that there could be no possible justification——

That is a childish point. It is like a child saying we cheated.

It is not a question of saying the Minister cheated. It is showing proof on the Minister's own Tables.

It is just like a child.

The Minister was very badly caught out. If he had had the sense to produce the figures in the beginning, instead of doing what he has done in the last two years in preventing confidence resurging, that would not have meant deflating it by means such as these.

The Deputy did his best when he was Minister.

I did my best to ensure that, when I was presenting the facts to the House, I was presenting the House with the truth, and the whole truth in the national interest. I am sorry the present Minister for Finance has not taken the same line. We had some discussion this morning on the part of the Minister for the Gaeltacht in relation to the economic trends. I have already complimented the Minister on the publication of Economic Statistics. I think it was a very good thing indeed that these statistics were issued particularly in our present circumstances.

The Minister for Finance was present yesterday when I asked the Taoiseach a question in relation to Table 1 of the Appendix relating to other capital transactions. The figure there shows a difference of £16.6 million this year; approximately £16,000,000 as compared with 1957 and, note particularly, a difference of £16,000,00 as compared with 1956. In 1956 the residual figure there under the heading of "Other capital transactions" was £1.5 million. This year it has jumped to £17.7 million.

I quite appreciate and accept at once, and did accept yesterday, that there are ingredients in that figure which relate to private and confidential business which could not and should not be exposed. It would destroy the efficacy of statistics of confidential figures were given out in public in a way in which they could be identified. What I want to know is quite simple. I want no confidence broken. I want to know how much of that £17.7 millions is known capital transactions and how much of it is the residual figure of unknown transactions which inevitably arise and which can be brought in to fill up the picture. It is quite clear that there must be some portion of it absolutely known with certainty.

In the current items we have, for example: "Other known current items"; then we have "Balance unaccounted for". Just as we have that in relation to our external balance of international payments in the current position so also we must have it in relation to the capital position. It would be quite beyond the powers of any Statistics Office, if it had three times the staff, to trace every minute detail of capital transaction but there must be some figures; when they have made all the possible examinations they can make, when they have taken all the confidential information into consideration, there must be some item that they make as a general estimate of what they think are capital transactions but that they cannot actually pinpoint. All I want to know is how much of the £17.7 millions is known capital transactions and how much of it is "Balance unaccounted for". It would have been comparatively simple for the Taoiseach to have given me that information yesterday. As he did not, perhaps I can hope that the Minister for Finance as the person who probably tabled this book, will give the information to me in his closing speech.

The picture of our economic position shown in Economic Statistics is a picture of an economy that, as I said last week, undoubtedly needs a shot in the arm. It is a picture of an economy that is not progressing as it ought to progress and has not progressed as it should have progressed in the past two years. If we were to believe the Minister for Finance and his colleagues and particularly the Tánaiste, they had a panacea for all our ills, a panacea which they advertised from every hoarding in Dublin and throughout the country during the last general election. It would seem as if the picture which one draws from these statistics is undoubtedly one which up to the end of 1958 certainly is satisfactory as regards our balance of international payments.

We were, in my time, in balance on our international payments on the Minister's own statement in the year ending 31st March, 1957. We had a surplus on our balance in 1957, and we were virtually in balance in 1958. Obviously, nobody minds about the £1,000,000 that was off balance in that year. In the first three months of this calendar year, our excess has gone up fairly steeply. It went up particularly steeply in January and I think it is quite fair for the Minister to say, from the January details which have been circulated, that part of the increased excess arises from the importation of wheat, following the bad harvest of last year. At the same time, I am a little disturbed by the suggestion in the estimates of revenue given to me in relation to the Minister's anticipation on our external account this year. The main buoyancy in revenue suggested on page 3 of the Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure, is in customs duties, that showing an increase of approximately £1¼ million. If one looks at the customs duties, the main item of revenue is, of course, tobacco which provides, I think, somewhere about £25,000,000.

According to the trend of revenue figures given to me in answer to a question this week, there does not appear to be much hope of a rise in tobacco receipts, unless, of course, there is some special circumstance known to the Minister confidentially that would not be known to us. To be quite fair to the Minister, if it was known to him, he could not disclose it, but it would not appear from the trend that there is great hope of much increase in tobacco revenue. In those circumstances, it seems that the buoyancy in customs revenue of £1¼ million to which I have referred—and indeed this is proven also by the answers I got to another question— and anticipated by the Minister, will arise in other imports where the value of the imports is practically equal to the duty content. The value of the tobacco we import is trivial, from the balance of payments point of view, compared with the revenue duty and it seems that, in taking the trend therefore, the Minister in that customs figure must be anticipating a rise in other importations and that, inevitably, will show on our import figures and will affect our balance of payments position unless there is a similar rise in exports.

For the first three months of this year, there has been a slight drop in exports, a drop which I do not think should seriously worry us because I believe the exports are still there and that really the situation is that they have not been sent out. I should like the Minister, when replying, to give us some more information on that customs figure, something more of an indication of his expectation of the balance on external account in the current financial year and to say whether he thinks it is possible to maintain the existing balance and if so, whether he thinks it will be maintained at a higher level than in 1958 or whether we must hope to maintain it on a lower import level or whether the position will come back more or less to where it was in the past year.

I presume that later on in the year, making full allowance for the fact that these figures were issued earlier than usual, we should get a more detailed break-down of the savings table on page 18. It is an unsatisfactory trend that we see there, that the total of personal savings, company savings and local authority savings—or otherwise, dissaving as it might more often be— is down in 1958 by no less than 25 per cent. on the previous year. A great deal of the basis upon which the grey book, Economic Development, is built—in fact, I might almost go so far as to say its whole basis—is the assumption that there would be an adequate volume of savings available and that Government policy would be able to ensure that that saving is there to sustain the programme.

On both sides of the House, we have been saying from time to time that the volume was too small. That has been common ground for both Governments but in relation to that, I want to refer the Minister to the top of page 37 of Economic Development, and paragraph 11 of that chapter. The whole basis of economic development as set out there and the whole basis of our being able to carry through the productive effort envisaged was stated as being dependent on a progressive rise in five years in monetary savings from £45,000,000 per annum to £55,000,000. The £45,000,000 mentioned there is, of course, purely fortuitously, the same figure as for 1958. It is taken as the average of the preceding five years up to 1957. The whole ratiocination of Economic Development, to be able to do the things it is suggested we should do to resolve our difficulties, is dependent upon savings rising progressively to a figure of £55,000,000. It is disappointing to see that in the first year after that survey has been completed, there has been a drop of 25 per cent. rather than an increase.

I might say, in passing, that for reasons of which some members are aware, I was not here for the Vote on Account. I was not therefore in a position to make any comments on the first occasion on which Economic Development came to be discussed. I should like now to take the opportunity of adding my voice to the commendatory remarks on the grey book made by Deputy Dillon on that occasion on behalf of Fine Gael, and particularly to his very apt reference to the swan. It is, however, disappointing to see the whole basis which was taken, if that trend were to continue on the productive effort side in the future, has failed. That was one of the reasons why I said to the Minister last Wednesday that the economy needed a shot in the arm now after two years of Government by Fianna Fáil. I do not suppose the Minister liked my saying that but I felt that was true because of his mishandling of the situation in the past two years.

We have already referred on other occasions, and I want to refer briefly again, to the fact that we have a great opportunity now, having regard to the way in which the terms of trade are moving with us. I referred the other day to the manner in which the index had risen from 83.7 in February, 1957, to 97.5, which was the last figure published for November, 1958. As far as one can see, that trend is continuing to improve, so far as our purchases and exports are concerned. It is undoubtedly a fact that they appear to have arrived at some stability in prices in Britain and that such stability, having regard to our import of manufactured goods—goods which we cannot produce here at home—must inure to our benefit. Similarly, export prices, particularly in regard to agricultural products, appear to be likely to hold and we have seen the benefit of that in the figures for the year which has just passed.

I do not know what hopes or prognostications the Minister, or his colleague, the Minister for Agriculture, are prepared to hold out in respect of our increasing agricultural exports. We have next door a market which consumes somewhere in the region of six million cwts. of butter every year. Our share of that, in 1957, was about five per cent. We have next door a market which consumes almost the same amount of bacon every year and our proportion of that was only somewhere around four per cent. Our proportion of the lamb and mutton market, of some £7 million, is somewhere about £70,000. It would seem, therefore, that there is under those three headings ample opportunity for us to get a more adequate share of that market, if we can so organise ourselves to get it.

I am somewhat inclined to think, if I may digress for a moment, that the grey book—and it is a natural finance outlook—is somewhat derogatory of our butter and bacon possibilities. I think they are possibilities which must be faced and which should be tackled. I am sorry that we have been allowed to hear nothing whatever from the Agricultural Marketing Committee that was set up. The report of that body was one of the things I should particularly have liked to have seen published before entering on this Budget debate because the marketing of our production is a matter absolutely vital to our future and we must ensure that Budgetary policy makes that marketing easier. If we are to sell successfully, we must have—and all those concerned in any industry must have— a thoroughly sound knowledge of the markets to be tackled. We must also have an assessment of the place in that market which the product to be sold will occupy and, in addition to that, we must have a competent marketing plan backed by an adequate selling effort and by effective promotional efforts.

I should have liked to have had the report of that Agricultural Marketing Committee available to this House so that we could have seen whether their investigations could give us any indication of any manner in which, by Budgetary policy, we could have assisted the capturing of, say for example, the three markets to which I have already referred.

I do not propose to weary the Minister any more with repetition of the fact, as it is a fact, that since he went over to that seat the cost of living has risen from an index figure of 107.7 to 116.9 for November and rose again in last February. It is difficult for any Government, for any person in private commerce, or for any farmer to be able adequately to plan greater production unless he can see reasonable stability in the cost of living. The index figure is not always the best evidence of that. It certainly is evidence of the trend and we know ourselves exactly in what respect the items have gone up.

I want to refer again to the manner in which the number of those who are employed has gone down. I want to suggest that the position is, perhaps, even worse as a trend than is suggested in Table XII. I always understood that one of the first indices one ever got of employment was that of the sales of insurance stamps, which is contained in Table 60 of Economic Series. I have here before me the last published number of Economic Series, dated 16th April, 1959. I find that there were fewer insurance stamps sold in the second quarter of 1958 than were sold in the second quarter of 1957, that there were fewer again sold in the third quarter of 1958 than there were in 1957.

The figures for the last quarter are not yet available to me, but it seems, from the fact that there is this trend —and it is a trend because the third quarter was worse than the second— that the trend is in the wrong direction, and that perhaps some of the average figures of the total of people at work as set out in Table XII may have been even lower at the end of the year because of being arrived at as an average, because the first quarter of 1958 was better but the last three quarters were worse. I do not know when we will get the fourth quarter figure for 1958. Even when we get the first quarter figure for 1959, I think I am right in saying that it will not be strictly comparable, because of the increase from £600 to £800 in the upper limit of those who have to be insured under the social welfare code. Certainly, when you take Table 60 in Economic Series and see the decline in the second and third quarters of 1958, and when you take Table XII in Economic Statistics and see the decline of 10,000 there from 1957 and of 32,000 from the year in which the people's wives were told to vote Fianna Fáil to get their husbands back to work, there is not very much in that which can be taken as very comparable with that advertisement.

The question of building construction has been referred to. I listened with amazement to the speech made here the other night by Deputy Briscoe. He spent a great part of his time, when we were over there and he was over here, here and in the Dublin Corporation agitating about the amount that was available to Dublin Corporation for capital works. He said here the other night that he has no difficulty in obtaining now all the money that was required by Dublin Corporation. In 1955-56, the amount which was made available by me and other sources with our consent to Dublin Corporation was £4,900,269. In the following year, it was £4,379,806. Fianna Fáil came in—the Party which Deputy Briscoe says has made it easier for him—and in their first year they gave Dublin Corporation only £2,635,865 and in their second year, the year just passed, £2,132,111. Then he has the brazen effrontery, having got last year less than half what was made available by us to Dublin Corporation, to come in here and say that with the present Government, he can get all the money he wants. The fact is that he was conducting a ramp for political purposes in the period of the previous inter-Party Government.

I might add, just to put the figures on record, that at that time in 1955-56 we made available to Cork Corporation £884,670 and in 1956-57, £866,021, while last year all that was made available to Cork Corporation was £569,036. For the record, might I say that the figures for 1955-56 and 1956-57 are taken from Volume 167, column 901; and that the figures for last year are taken from the reply to a Question asked by me on 21st instant. It is simple enough to judge the genuineness of the views expressed by the Deputy when one contrasts those two records.

Following this Budget, we shall have the Finance Bill. In the detailed consideration of that Bill, we may have another opportunity to consider exactly the impetus which will be given by the decrease in income tax. I do not know whether the schedules of figures which were made available in certain newspapers were issued with the Minister's approval. If the Minister tells me that the figures which were given in those papers are the correct figures, I shall not bother him with a question. I may say that I think he was perfectly right in issuing them, if he did so.

Does the Deputy mean the income tax figures here and in Britain?

No; I mean the schedules which were quoted at the bottom of page 1 of the Irish Press of Thursday, 16th April, 1959. I am not making any point that it was improper for the Minister to circulate schedules to the Press. I do not think it was. If he did, it would be quite right to do it.

I do not think I did. I am not sure.

Perhaps the Minister would tell us. If these are official figures, I shall not weary him with a question. If they are not official figures, then, perhaps it would be desirable to have the facts on record but, as I say, we will get the opportunity on the Finance Bill itself of considering the impetus effect, the shot in the arm effect, of the reduction in taxation.

Finally, to repeat exactly what I said when I was beginning after Questions, let me say that we have been, in our conception of considering budgetary policy, far too much attracted and torn by individual figures and have concentrated far too much on them. What we want to do to a much greater extent is to take the global picture, current expenditure, capital services, below the line expenditure, and ensure that our current expenditure is cut to a figure that was within a more reasonable proportion of our national income. If we are able to succeed in doing that, then the effect will be that we will have more moneys freed, whether through savings or otherwise, for the purpose of ensuring that we can carry through a proper programme of productive capital development.

Carrying through a programme of productive capital development is not something that was thought of or started only with the grey book or the publication of the Government's White Paper, to which I have referred earlier. But it is an undoubted fact that there was no proper thought or consideration given at all between the wars by the Fianna Fáil Government, from 1932 to 1938, to a programme of productive expenditure because, if there had been, we would not have been faced in the recent post-war years with many of the difficulties with which we have been faced.

We are sometimes appalled by the amount of capital that has to be invested for the purpose of ensuring that one man is employed in industry. The figures that have been given for the investment that is necessary show the magnitude of the task. It is a task that can be faced in a constructive way only by whoever is Minister for Finance frankly putting all the cards on the table and not trying to gloss over something that may not be so pleasant to explain.

I should like to make some observations arising out of this Budget which has been so fully discussed in the past few days. The principal aim of the Fianna Fáil Party since they resumed office was to restore the national confidence which had been at such a very low ebb. If anything can achieve that aim, it is the present Budget. Undoubtedly, the previous two Budgets introduced since Fianna Fáil took office were not as optimistic as one could expect. The present Budget is in very striking contrast to those Budgets inasmuch as it has been balanced and we are not presented with a deficit of approximately £6,000,000, as was the case in the last two Budgets.

Deputy Sweetman has gone to great pains to try to establish that something exceptional took place on this occasion in so far as the Minister took the rather unusual step of bringing in certain amounts to revenue and thus, as the Deputy alleges, created an artificial position. While I am satisfied that that is not the case, that question is not for me to explain. In any event, it is a question that should be left to the Minister and I have no doubt that the explanation will be forthcoming when he is concluding the debate.

As I have said, this Budget contrasts in a very significant way with the previous two Budgets introduced by the Government since they took office. From my point of view, the mere fact that the Budget gives a number of reliefs would not mean that it was a satisfactory Budget. There are many other features associated with the Budget which make it what I think the people have accepted it as—a satisfactory Budget.

The Minister quoted a number of instances which indicated that the general economic position of the country had improved. I submit that no amount of argument which the Opposition can put forward in regard to a number of those instances will succeed in getting the ordinary man in the street to accept their point of view as being correct. The average citizen, although he might not have the opportunity of studying the financial trends of a Budget of this kind, is a pretty good judge. What matters to the people as a whole is how trade and commerce are progressing, how employment is running and the availability of financial accommodation for agriculture and industry.

If there is anything that proves the case made by the Minister, it is the fact that financial assistance is available now for any project, whether agricultural or industrial, that is worthy of consideration. A very important step in that direction is that commercial banks have taken the unprecedented step of offering people in agriculture and industry any reasonable financial help required to stimulate production. A Deputy tried to make the case that the offer of the banks was not in practice what it appeared to be on paper. I deny obsolutely that such is the case. The change in the policy of the banks was long overdue. When the banks did decide to make credit available, they set about it in a very practical and definite manner.

Deputies who represent rural areas know that the farmers now have access to banking loans on a basis which is considerably easier than that which existed heretofore. The old arrangement was that banks might consider limited advances to farmers on being given possession of a very substantial form of security. Most people nowadays prefer to have recourse for loans to bank sources. They like to conduct that business in a confidential and private way. The new arrangement the banks have announced gives that facility. I am in a position to say that I have known at least a dozen farmers who, within the past two or three months, have had occasion to approach the banks for facilities in connection with the purchase of cattle, or the erection of farm buildings, under the new scheme. I found on all occasions that the local bank managers were quite sympathetic to the applications made, and in most instances, were able to grant the accommodation applied for.

The general policy of the banks is not such that they are inclined to throw money loosely about the country. A number of conservative-minded people were alarmed when they found the banks were advertising the credit facilities available, but I say that the general approach of the banks to that question is realistic and practicable, and one which will certainly help the agricultural industry to a very great extent. In the past year—and it is to be regretted— there was a fall in agricultural production. Opposition speakers have gone to great pains to indicate that it was because the general economic position of the country had worsened but the fact is that the Opposition selected a very bad year on which to base their case. We all know the harvest of 1958 was one of the worst in history. Deputies with common sense realise that a bad harvest affects the agricultural industry in this, and in every other country, more than it affects industry or other forms of activity.

That reduction and the general fall in agricultural output are certainly to be attributed to the harvest. To prove that we have only to wait and review the matter next year. I shall be very surprised, if normal weather conditions prevail during the current year, if our deficiency in agricultural production is not made good, and if our target of something around two per cent is not achieved. Improved weather conditions, and improved financial accommodation for the farmers and the people who engage in agriculture will certainly make for the achievement of that target which has been more or less set.

It is true that employment is falling in the agricultural industry, but we must be fair when considering that aspect of the matter. In recent years, the agricultural industry has been mechanised to a very great extent. With the aid of whatever credit facilities were then available through agricultural associations, and particularly through hire purchase companies, it has been possible for farmers to introduce mechanised methods into the agricultural industry much more easily than they could have in the ten or 15 years before. It is quite obvious that if agriculture is mechanised to an increasing extent, it will, in some way, affect the trend of employment in the end. At the same time, I think the agricultural industry, in view of the substantial State aid available to it, has not contributed as much as it might have to the employment requirements of the country. I should like to say that I am not prepared to suggest that that was the deliberate policy of those engaged in agriculture. It is due to a very great extent to the fact that the employment of labour in the land was, in past years, considered to be a burden which was beyond the capacity of the ordinary employer to shoulder.

There is a tendency, particularly among farmers, to feel that they can afford to engage labour only during their principal activities in the busy seasons, and that during the quieter period, during the winter months, it would not be an economic proposition for labour to be employed. That is a very false concept. Nowadays, with the assistance from Government sources which has been made available for quite a number of years by this and previous Governments, there are many agricultural activities which can be undertaken during the winter period, as, for instance, the reclamation of land.

It is unfortunate that those engaged in agriculture cannot be made to realise that full time employment on the land is necessary for the purpose of enticing workers who elect to engage in agriculture to remain on the land. They have to be given what I regard as an incentive in that direction. A good deal of controversy has taken place in the local councils and in the House with regard to the reluctance of the Government to amend the Agricultural Land (Relief) Act because reliefs are not allowed except where the employment is continuous the whole year round.

That is one of the many incentives which the Government have given and their reluctance to accede to representations made here to modify that Act is due, in no small measure, to their desire to ensure that employment in the agricultural industry should be as continuous, in the main, as it is in other industry. The labour pool available to agriculture in general is not as great as it was many years ago. For some reason which I find hard to explain, workers suitable for employment in agriculture seem to prefer to work in the industrial sphere.

That would be a matter for the Estimates rather than the Financial Resolution. Details of agricultural policy do not arise on the Financial Resolution.

I accept your ruling, Sir. I shall go back to my main subject. The loosening of credit in general for agricultural projects is one arrangement about which we can all feel very happy. It is only right that we should make it clear that with that improvement in the financial structure of the agricultural industry, it is reasonable to expect the improvement in output which is so necessary at present.

The fact that the general economic experience in the country has been satisfactory during the year was demonstrated in many ways. I have already referred to one aspect. Revenue during the year exceeded the anticipations that are usually set out when Budgets are being introduced. It is reasonable to assume that if there is buoyancy in revenue, it is an indication —and in my opinion, a very strong indication—that the position, generally speaking, is satisfactory. We have had that experience during the year and it was one of the most marked signs of the progress we had in our efforts to achieve the national economic advance to which I have referred. Another demonstration of economic recovery is the general public support for the financing of capital programmes. We have had the unfortunate experience of floating national loans over the past few years which have not been taken up. It is very satisfactory that since the Fianna Fáil Party took office national loans have been floated successfully. The improvement in small savings, particularly in the saving certificates and saving banks, standing at £5,000,000, exceeded expectations, and the net increase of £2½ million pounds in respect of Prize Bonds is something of which we can be proud. Of course, the Prize Bond scheme was initiated before this Government took office and I am prepared to give credit to the people now in opposition for their action in introducing that scheme. It has proved very successful in making funds available to the Government to finance projects of national importance.

In the course of his speech this evening, Deputy Sweetman dealt very fully with the financial accommodation available for the carrying out of works by local authorities during the period of office of the Coalition Government. I took a note of the figures the Deputy quoted, but, if the amounts which the Deputy mentions—and I take his word for it that the necessary sanction was given by his Department—were available, why were the local authorities unable to turn the accommodation into solid cash? Those of us who have been members of local authorities know that there was a period of financial stringency, particularly during 1956. The housing schemes of local authorities were held up at that time. It would take a period of several months to get a housing scheme sanctioned by the Department and when it came through, the local authorities were unable to carry it out owing to lack of finance.

It has been stated by a number of Deputies that guarantees issued to local authorities particularly during the year 1956, would not be implemented by the banks. I did not have any experience of that in my local authority, but I have been told by members of other local authorities that such was the case. It would be very interesting if some speaker from the Opposition Benches could enlighten us on whether that statement was true. I find it very hard to understand why an authority from a State Department in connection with a capital project could fall flat because the treasures of the local authority would not implement the authority issued.

The general position in relation to local authorities is satisfactory. The recent amending legislation passed by the Minister for Local Government in connection with the availability of the Local Loans Fund for purchases, particularly of houses which have been hitherto occupied, has been of great assistance and will be of considerable benefit to people seeking houses on the loan system in the country and urban areas.

Deputy Sweetman made light of the Minister's announcement that a number of these special levies were being removed and said that the general result from this move was not worth mentioning. Referring to the Ministers Budget Statement, I find that 35 items were removed from the list and I do not regard them as being of minor importance. They are useful items in the household and their purchase comes within the reach of the ordinary householder. The items still subject to import levy are, in the main, non-essentials. However, I feel that during the current year the financial position may improve to the extent that the Minister will find it possible at the time of the next Budget to review this list and reduce still further the number of items there and gradually eliminate it altogether.

The output in manufacturing industry should be satisfactory to everybody, being in direct contrast to that which obtains in the agricultural industry. The present policy of the Government in regard to helping industrial projects, particularly in the underdeveloped areas, is a very important factor in increasing industrial output in the future. The policy of the Government in sending accredited representatives abroad in an endeavour to get foreign capital for industry here is one that has the general approval of the House. The fact that the efforts made by these representatives has not shown fruit as readily as we would expect is to be understood. The most satisfactory outcome to be expected from any representations is that an industry will be established which will be permanent. Nowadays people investing money are conservative to the extent that they are not inclined to gamble as much as they were 15 or 20 years ago in putting up capital for industrial projects. The market in that connection is to some extent drying up. We cannot go on indefinitely having industries which may be inclined to be duplicated.

There are many fields of new activity in connection with the general industrial programme. I am quite impressed that our representatives abroad seem to be exploring those fields and endeavouring to the best of their ability to get any deficiencies in that sphere made up. The general improvement in the economic position here and the better standard of living the people have undoubtedly been enjoying in recent years have to some extent helped to stabilise general efforts for the acquisition of new industries.

In the course of debates here, particularly Budget debates, quite a lot of fuss was made on a number of previous occasions about the Government's policy of removing the food subsidies to the extent of £9,000,000. I do not know whether it is because the argument is getting worn out or is a bit hackneyed, but there has not been much reference to the matter on this occasion. I think it is true to say that the people of the country as a whole accepted and have now accepted from experience that the removal of the food subsidies— whilst it was a step which, I am sure, the Government sincerely regretted— was a decision in the right direction—

The Deputy did not say that when he was looking for votes in Listowel.

——and proved to be a very strong factor in the rehabilitation of our economy. Deputy T. F. O'Higgins says something about votes in Listowel. I have said in Listowel, publicly, what I have said here this afternoon.

"Vote for me and I will increase the price of bread."

I am not a financier. I know very little about the general impact of finance as it applies to Budgetary methods. While I was listening to speeches from Opposition Deputies, I was hoping some speaker would sooner or later make a simple statement as to the advantages, under normal circumstances, food subsidies were providing in this country.

At any rate, people were able to buy bread.

I have read a good deal on this subject and I have been able to get some information and statistics, so far as food subsidies apply in other countries. My information, for what it is worth, suggests that these subsidies were introduced, wherever they apply, during the war period. It is obvious that they were introduced generally to cushion the people through the erratic increases and shortages that applied at that time to essential commodities.

The food subsidies had to be found by taxation. The ordinary citizen had to contribute his due share to those subsidies. From the way Opposition speakers tried to describe the removal of the subsidies, one would imagine they were appropriated in order to give some direct payment to members of the Government. What would the position have been if we did not remove the food subsidies in the 1957 Budget? I have my own views but I hope some Opposition speaker will, before this debate concludes, try to explain the position coherently. I should like to have it explained from the Opposition point of view, provided the case is made simply and in language that can be understood by the ordinary man in the street.

I feel the step the Government had to take at that time was essential. I am sure, also, it would not have been taken had it not been absolutely essential in the opinion of the Government. From 1932, when Fianna Fáil took office, their general policy has always been directed towards helping the poorer sections of the community. If the food subsidies would in themselves give that measure of relief and improvement to the poorer sections of the community which Opposition Deputies allege would be the case, I am certain the Fianna Fáil Government would have found other ways and means of overcoming the difficult position they had to face on resuming office at that time.

I come now to private enterprise versus State or public enterprise as I call it. Deputy Dr. Browne dealt with that matter fully yesterday. Our State-sponsored companies have given a very good account of themselves. In all their spheres of activity, they achieved results which might not be possible for private concerns. We must accept that the field for State-sponsored companies is rather limited and that very few projects are now left undealt with by other sources in which State concerns could engage. I have been searching for industries that might possibly be established under State-sponsored companies or private enterprise and I feel that very little is left which could usefully be assigned to State bodies.

State bodies have the advantage that they have a virtual monopoly. It is quite easy for any interest, whether State-sponsored or private enterprise, to succeed if they enjoy a virtual monopoly which a number of private enterprises have not got. I feel that the policy of encouraging State activity could be overdone. The average man does not like to see it carried too far. It eliminates the possibility of competition because when the State is asked to undertake an important project, it generally gets the exclusive right to manufacture, distribute and sell the commodity. Undoubtedly, if there were still any industries that could usefully be taken up by State-sponsored companies, I should be inclined to favour them but to a limited extent. As I have already said, the projects available in that connection are very limited and are gradually getting fewer and fewer.

With regard to the reliefs given in the Budget, I am sure every Opposition Deputy in his heart agrees that the Government went to the greatest extent possible in giving them. We may differ as to the methods that should be employed or as to the extent to which certain reliefs were given but, by and large, I think there is general agreement in this House that the reliefs that have been given were ones that were badly needed, and in many cases were long overdue.

Hear, hear!

For my part, I have no hesitation in saying I have hope that, even in some of those categories to which I have referred, the Minister may find it possible next year to examine them with a view to supplementing reliefs to some extent. I was rather amazed to hear it said by members of the Labour Party that the increase given to old age pensioners would be nullified to a great extent because those in receipt of home assistance from local authorities would have their assistance reduced by that amount. I do not accept that point of view. I read the Minister's speech and he does not appear to have made any statement that would indicate that would happen. I have not the slightest doubt that if any local authority proposes to take that course representations will be made to the Minister and the position will be corrected. I do not believe that the Minister intended to give an increase of 2/6d. per week to old age pensioners and the recipients of home assistance, and felt that that particular increase might be deducted from those unfortunate people who have to supplement their incomes in the form of assistance from local authorities.

I do not think I need refer to the other reliefs given in entertainment taxation covering cinemas, dancing and greyhound racing. Those reliefs were sought by the various organisations who control these forms of entertainment and, whilst the Minister possibly did not give relief to the extent that these promoters required them, he met their case in a reasonable way. I am particularly impressed by the method with which the Minister dealt with the tax on dances. I feel that the cheap dances should be tax free, and I am glad that the Minister found it possible to remove taxation from the 2/6d. admission charge to dances. With regard to the higher admission charges to dances, I feel that a reduction in taxation would not benefit the public generally. The most popular form of dancing is the short dance, the admission charges to which are about 2/6d. Dancers are quite satisfied because they are now provided with a type of entertainment that has always been popular with them.

Income tax and sur-tax constitute a rather thorny problem and one which must be dealt with rather carefully, lest what I say should be misrepresented. However, at the risk of being misrepresented, I do say it was time concessions, even if they were slight, were made to income tax payers, and that the rate of taxation generally applicable to incomes and to wage earners was reduced. The value of money is diminishing and the average person in receipt of £5 or £6 a week if he was a single person— had to pay income tax. He found it difficult to pay the few pounds demanded of him and, even thought the concession in this case is rather slight, it is an indication that the Government are alive to this problem. It is a start in what I regard as the right direction.

So many Deputies have related this current Budget to the Budget of two years ago—and rightly so—that I find I have to take a similar step. Deputy Moloney has referred to the impact of the withdrawal of food subsidies at that time and more or less issued a challenge to somebody on the opposite side to take him up on the points he raised. I shall be glad to do it because my constituents are very similar to those of Deputy Moloney, as well as being neighbours. They live a similar type of life and they have been hit in similar ways in both areas. In the time available, however, I do not feel I could deal completely with those points and ignore the other facets of the budgetary provisions.

No doubt, Deputy Moloney thought in 1957, as so many other people did, that this item of £10,000,000 that had to be found in taxation to meet the subsidisation of food was an item that could be cut off our taxation structure, and that we could reduce taxation by that amount if we could dispense with the subsidisation of food. In 1952, there was a partial cutting away of food subsidies and the consequence at that time were an expenditure by the State and by the private sector of the community in excess of what was then supposed to be saved, in trying to compensate the organised sections of the community who were so seriously affected in their standard of living by the impact of the increased cost of the necessaries of life.

That was a lesson which appears not to have been learned and so, in 1957, we had the present Minister in the Budget of that year, as well as imposing certain other additional taxation, withdrawing the food subsidies completely. Let me ask Deputy Moloney, in retrospect, whether in the two year period that has elapsed since they were completely withdrawn, the efforts of the Government have been completely successful in cushioning the people against the impact on their incomes by the withdrawal of the food subsidies? Perhaps some of the speakers who follow Deputy Moloney could tell me what the small farmer in North Kerry and North Cork got to meet what he has to pay to-day for essential commodities. I am leaving out the luxuries and am not talking about tobacco or drink.

I am asking the Deputies whether they are satisfied the wage earner in their constituencies is now as well off as he was two years ago, whether every single one got increases in wages or salaries or pensions to meet the impact of the increased cost of living and, if he did, where he got it and who is paying it? If you put together all the increases in salaries voted by this House, all the increases voted by local authorities and which have to be met from rates, and add on again what the private sector has agreed to pay in increased wages—which they are passing on to the Irish consumer in the price of the goods they are manufacturing or retailing—how much is left of that £10,000,000 which was supposed to be cut off the expenditure side of our budgetary provisions? Why is it not reflected in a reduction in taxation?

There were people outside the Government Party who were concerned about that item of expenditure, people who thought that could be done and that a strong Government could do it where possibly a less strong Government could not do it. They supported the Fianna Fáil Party at the time because they thought there was a Government that could withstand any demand made by organised labour, a Government strong enough to withstand any demand from the Civil Service. There was a Government and a Party so strong that they could do this thing. They were certainly strong enough to have done it. But in the interests of equity and justice, they could not have done it. They found that out because, having said that we would be trotted into these Lobbies to prevent any increase in wages or salaries, as small a body as the Dublin dustmen brought the Government to their knees on the question of wages arising from the increase in the cost of living.

Since then, every time the people in rural parts of the country turn on Radio Éireann they hear of some organised section getting an increase. That is going on and on. The withdrawal of the food subsidies in 1957 sparked off that round after round of wage increases. We find in this Budget reverberations of that. As a result of the widespread demand that, even at this stage, the Government would do something to alleviate the conditions of the aged, the blind and the widows, we have this paltry penny per meal which will be payable to those who are still alive next August.

I regret that Deputy Haughey—who, I must say, made a very reasonable speech—said, perhaps he did not mean it, that there would be some jubilation on the Opposition benches if the Government had failed to do something for the old people. I certainly would not agree with that. I would take the Deputy back to the time when those same people were obliged to go to a relieving officer and prove that their means were so little that they could not exist on the 10/- they got from the State in order to get another half-crown. That was away back in 1947. The old age pension was as low as that at that time.

At that time, the Party on this side, again in Opposition, tabled a motion to grant a 5/- increase. It was outvoted by the over-all Fianna Fáil majority. On our accession to office a few months afterwards we stood by what we had demanded in opposition. The first action of the inter-Party Government in 1948—we put them first in the queue—was to give the old age pensioners an increase in their allowances, and that was at a time when the cost of living had not risen to the point it is at to-day. That was done within a matter of weeks. At a later date, when a similar increase was granted, it was found that, administratively, payments could be made within a fortnight of the Budget being announced. We had the post office staffs of the country changing the books to be in a position to pay the increased allowances within two weeks of the Budget statement being made. In this case we find that, for some mysterious reason, it is being held in suspense until August. We are entitled to ask why. The people who have waited for the last two years for some assistance to meet that impost on them should not be obliged to wait until next August to get the 2/6d.

As other Deputies have said, it was necessary to grant that increase. It was the very least the Government could have done; and they should have done more. These people live on bread, butter and tea. At a time when external causes brought about an increase in tea prices, we met them by a double payment at Christmas. This cushioned those people for the entire year against the impact of the increase in the pound of tea. For the last two years they have had this miserable shilling a week. It has been accepted by the Labour Court and by employers throughout the country that 7/6, 10/- and 12/6d. per week was a reasonable increase to grant their employees to meet the impact in the cost of living.

The Minister has also found it possible to give percentage increases to certain classes of pensioners and to I.R.A. pensioners. A percentage increase is not a just increase in this case. When there is an increase in the cost of living surely it costs the person with the lower award as much to make ends meet as it does the person with the higher award? In fact, it costs them more. We have granted in this House —and there was some justification for it—increases in salaries to people with £1,000 per year to meet the increased cost in living. They are people who have meat three times a day and who do not have to live on the commodities from which the food subsidies were withdrawn—bread, butter and tea— which constitute the basic diet of the unfortunate people in the lower income groups. Surely it would have been a better thing to have granted a flat rate increase to all recipients?

Deputy Sherwin pointed out that unless some action is taken by the Minister for Finance, many old age pension recipients in this city may have deducted from what they get from their local authority a sum equal to the increase the State may give them. That may be rectified; it should be. If the State feels it has to supplement their old age pensions, that should not be done at the expense of a reduction in what they get from the local authority.

Another inequity arising from this increase is that unless administrative action is taken in relation to the recipients of special allowances, their allowances may be affected. The old age pension of the recipient is not taken into account in the annual means test, but the pension of the spouse is taken into account. I know of an instance where an increase of 2/6d. was granted in the old age pension of the wife of the recipient of a special allowance. The special allowance was then decreased to a greater extent than the increase which the wife had received in the old age pension. If this is permitted, it will completely nullify the intention to improve the lot of such persons. Speaking generally, these are small things; but they are very important things when you come to consider the individual and the person it is intended to assist.

I should like to come now to the general principles of the Budget. In 1947, when the subsidies were withdrawn, Deputy Costello, the Leader of the Opposition, said it would appear that the Taoiseach had again resorted to his old source for inspiration. He had at one time advised a young politician coming into public life to study The Prince.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 28th April, 1959.
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