Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 10 Jun 1959

Vol. 175 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 48—Roinn na Gaeltachta.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Micheál Ó Móráin)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeonfar suim nach mó ná £291,700 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1960, le haghaidh Tuarastal agus Costas Roinn na Gaeltachta, maille le Deontais le haghaidh Tithe agus Ildeontais-i-gCabhair.

Taispeánann an Meastachán don bhliain seo laghdú de £60,800 glan ar an soláthar a rinneadh don bhliain seo caite. Is é an mínú atá air sin ná go bhfuil laghdú de £110,000 sa Deontas-i-gCabhair a soláthraítear do Ghaeltarra Éireann agus i gcoinne na laghduithe sin, méadú de £45,000 sa soláthar do Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin sa Ghaeltacht. Tá laghduithe freisin sa soláthar do Thuarastail agus Costas na nOifigeach agus d'obair a bhaineann leis na Torthaí Mara ach, ina gcoinne siúd, tá laghduithe dá réir sna suimeanna a bheas le haisghnóthú ó Ghaeltarra Éireann i leith tuarastal agus costas na nOifigeach agus sa mhéid a bheas le fáil de bharr na Torthaí Mara a dhíol.

I dtaobh Fo-mhírchinn A, B agus C, tá ísliú mór sa riachtanas do Thuarastail agus Costais na nOifigeach mar le linn na bliana seo caite do haistríodh go Ranna eile iomlán de thriocha Stát-Sheirbhsigh a bhí ar fhoireann Sheirbhísí na Gaeltachta sarar aistríodh na Tionscail Tuaithe go dtí an Bord neamh-spleách a bunaíodh faoin Acth um Thionscail na Gaeltachta, 1957. Tugadh an fhoireann uilig, idir chléirigh agus teicneoirí, a bhí ag riaradh na dTionscal Tuaithe ar iasacht don Bhord agus do réir mar a bhí a bhfoireann chléireachais féin dá fostú ag an mBord rinneadh an fhoireann chléireachais a bhí ar iasacht ag an mBord d'athdháiliú go Ranna eile nó chun folúntais i mo Roinn féin a líonadh. Maidir leis an bhfoireann teicniúil, tá socruithe idir láimh faoi láthair chun Scéim Aoisliúntais a cheapadh agus a chur i bhfeidhm agus go dtí go ndéanfar é sin beidh tuarastail na dTeicneoirí sin ina muirear ar an Vóta seo i dtreo is nach mbeidh aon bhriseadh i leanúnachas a seirbhísi faoin Stát go dtí go nglacfar isteach mar sheirbhísígh den Bhord iad. Chuige sin tá soláthar faoi Fho-mhírcheann A—sé sin £15,000 den £16,000 atá curtha isteach i leith "Foireann Eile"—chun tuarastail na nOifigeach Teicuiúla d'íoc ar feadh ráithe amháin den bhliain seo agus táthar ag súil leis go mbeifear in ann an t-aistriú go dtí an Bord a chur i gcrích taobh istigh den am sin. Tá soláthar faoi Fho-mhírcheann R.5 chun an £15,000 seo d'aisghnóthu ón mBord.

Tá soláthar faoi Fho-mhírcheann D chun £110,000 a sholáthar mar Dheontas-i-gCabhair do Ghaeltarra Éireann chun riachtanais reatha na dTionscal Tuaithe i mbliana a shlánú. Rinneadh soláthar de £220,000 chuige seo anuraidh ach bí sin an shéad bhliain don Bhord bheith ag riaradh na hoibre sin agus bhí neamh-chinnteacht i dtaobh na riachtanas sa chéad bhliain. Fé mar a tharla, ní raibh ach iomlán de £120,285 ag teastáil ón mBord mar Dheontas-i-gCabhair anuraidh agus táthar sásta de nach mbeidh níos mó ná an £110,000 ag teastáil i mbliana. Ní miste a rá go bhfuil soláthar déanta do réir forálacha an Achta um Thionscail na Gaeltachta chun riachtanais caipitil na dTionscal Tuaithe a chothu tré airleacáin inaisíoctha d'eisiúint ón bPríomh-Chiste—sé sin, taobh amuigh ar fad den Vóta seo.

Leagfar ar Bhord na Dála ar ball Cuntais Ghaeltarra Éireann don bhliain dar chríoch an 31ú de Mhárta seo caite.

Déantar soláthar faoi Fho-Mhírcheann P chun Cúnamh Teicniúil a chur ar fáil do na Tionscail Tuaithe atá á riaradh ag Gaeltarra Éireann. Tá dhá chuspóir ar leith i gceist anseo. Sé an chéad chuspóir acu ná Comhairleoirí Bainistíoctha d'fhostú chun iniúchadh iomlán a dhéanamh ar eagraíocht na dTionscal Tuaithe agus scéim uileghabháloch atheagraíochta a cheapadh chun riaradh na dtionscal a chur ar chomhchéim le cleachtas nuaaoiseach bainistíochta. Chuige sin tá Comhairleoirí Bainistíochta fostaithe cheana féin ag Gaeltarra Éireann agus tá an atheagraíocht á cur i bhfeidhm do réir a chéile le roinnt míosa i leith.

Sé an dara cuspóir ná cúrsaí tréineála, sa bhaile agus thar lear, a chur ar fáil do theicneoirí agus do thosaitheoirí atá á bhfostú sna Tionscail Tuaithe. Beidh san áireamh sna cúrsaí tréineála sin oiliúint i gceardaíocht a bhaineann le tionscal na holla, mar atá cardáil, sníomhú, fisiú, críochnú bréidín, dearthóireacht agus táirgeacht cniotála.

Bhí an cúnamh teicniúil seo do na Tionscail Tuaithe san áireamh i gComhaontú Idirnáisiúnta a rinneadh ar an 14ú de Mheitheamh, 1957, idir Rialtas na hÉireann agus Rialtas Stát Aontaithe Mheiriceá a bhain leis an airgead a bhí i gCuntas Speisialta Contrapháirteach an Deontais Mheiriceánaigh alos Cúnaimh Theicniúil d'úsáid agus chífear go bhfuil soláthar faoi Fho-mhírcheann R.6 den Vóta seo chun an méid a caithfear faoi Fho-mhírcheann P d'aisghnóthú ón gCuntas Speisialta sin.

Maidir leis na Tionscail Torthaí Mara déantar soláthar faoi Fhó-Mhírcheann E chun feamainn agus carraigín a cheannach don ghnólacht Arramara Teoranta. Suas go dtí an bhliain seo ba ghnáth soláthar a dhéanamh chun na habhair seo a cheannach, a láimhseáil agus a sheacadadh ag monarchain an ghnólachta ach tabharfar faoi deara nach bhfuil aon tsoláthar á dhéanamh feasta do na chostaisí láimhseála agus do na chostaisí seachadaidh toisc go mbeidh a gcuid socruithe féin á ndéanamh ag an ngnólacht ina leith sin amach anseo. Ní miste dhom a rá go bhfuil cúrsaí an tionscail ar fad faoi aithbhreithniú agam le tamall anuas agus go gceapaim gur maith an rud é go bhfuil an gnólacht ag tabhairt faoina gcuid socruithe féin ann, agus tá súil agam go leanfar den iarracht sin go dtí go mbeidh an obair ar fad á reachtáil acu, idir ceannach is eile.

Taobh amuigh de chúrsaí láimhseála agus seachadaidh, tá laghdú le feiscint sa mhéad atá á thaispeáint i leith Feamoinn agus an Carraigín a cheannach. Ní hionann sin is a rá, ámh, go bhfuil aon laghdú ag teacht ar an tionscal, ach go bhfuil iarracht á dhéanamh i mbliana chun an meastachán a dhéanamh níos cruinne ná mar a bhí le roinnt bhlian anuas. Le fírinne tá glaoch níos fearr anois ar na Slata Mara ná mar a bhí riamh agus dá mhéad díobh a bailítear isea is fear é. Tá ardaithe ar an bpraghas dóibh agus bheadh áthas orm dá mbeadh a dhá oiread nó a thrí oiread díobh ar fáil. Ag an am céanna ní haon chabhair dúinn níos mó airgid a sholáthar ná a ceaptar a bheas ag teastáil agus is é sin an fáth go bhfuil laghdú déanta mar atá mínithe agam.

Faoi Fho-Mhírcheann F, déantar soláthar le haghaidh deontas faoi Achtanna na dTithe (Gaeltacht). Tháinig méadú sa bhliain airgeadais 1958/59 ar an obair a rinneadh faoi na hAchtanna. Críochnaíodh ós cionn dhá chéad dteach nua, feabhsaíodh beagnach trí chéad eile, cuireadh saoráidí sláintíochta ar fáil i gcéad teach agus cuireadh leathnúcháin speisialta le ocht gcinn déag de thithe. Tháinig méadú, dá réir sin, ar an gcaiteachas faoi na hAchtanna—ó £70,000 go £78,000 tuairim. Meastar go dtiocfaidh méadú eile fós ar an obair sa bhliain airgeadais seo agus gur gá £90,000 a sholáthar chuige arís i mbliana. Mar is eol do na Teachtaí, tá Bille nua tithe ar siúl againn faoi láthair agus measaim, mar sin, nach gá tuilleadh a rá faoi chúrsaí tithíochta sa ráiteas seo.

Fé mar is eol don Dáil, is faoi Fho-mhírcheann G a cuirtear airgead ar fáil chun Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin na Roinne a chur i gcrích. Tá na húdaráis áitiúla agus muintir na Gaeltachta ag dul i dtaithí na Scéimeanna go maith agus tá an t-éileamh orthu ag dul i méid dá réir. Ag an am céanna, ní féidir i gcónaí dul ar aghaidh chomh tapaidh agus ba mhaith linn leis an obair ar chuid de na scéimeanna. Sa bhliain airgeadais seo caite, mar shompla, níor éirigh linn an t-airgead go léir a chaitheamh a bhí curtha i leataoibh againn le haghaidh Scéim Leathnuithe na dTithe Gloine agus na Scéimeanna Uisce-Sholáthair. Mar gheall air sin, fágadh tuairim £30,000 gan caitheamh as an £125,000 a cuireadh ar fáil le haghaidh na Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin. Ach, cé nár caitheadh an t-airgead sa bhliain seo caite, tá na scéimeanna sin ag dul ar aghaidh agus meastar go mbeidh méadú mór ar an gcaiteachas ina leith sa bhliain airgeadais reatha. Dá chomhartha sin, táimid tar éis an soláthar le haghaidh na Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin d'ardú ó £125,000 anuraidh go dtí £170,000 i mbliana.

Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh a fhios ag an Dáil cad tá ar siúl againn leis na Scéimeanna Feabhsúcháin agus, dá réir sin, déanfaidh mé trácht beag ar gach ceann ar leith díobh. Seacht gcinn acu atá ann, mar leanas:—

1. Scéim na mBóthar: Tugadh dhá chineál deontais amach anuraidh faoin scéim seo, deontas 100 fán gcéad den chostas do na Comhairlí Contae i leith bóithre contae agus deontas 100 fán gcéad den chostas, a cuireadh ar fáil trí Oifig na Scéimeanna Fostaíochta Speisialta, do bhóithre áise, is é sin, do na bóithre nach bhfuil freagracht reachtúil ar na húdaráis áitiúla ná ar éinne eile ina leith. De dhroim na taithí a fuarthas ar riaradh na ndeontaisí sin le cúpla bliain anuas táthar ar an tuairim anois gur mó an gá atá le cabhair airgid ón Roinn i gcás na mbóthar áise ná i gcás na mbóthar contae. Tá gléas ann cheana féin, is é sin an Ród-Chiste, chun airgead a chur ar fáil le haghaidh na mbóthar contae agus is féidir an t-airgead sin a sholáthar le dea-thoil na gComhairlí Contae lena mbaineann an scéal. Taobh amuigh d'Oifig na Scéimeanna Fostaíochta Speisialta a chaitheann suimeanna éigin airgid ar choinníollacha áirithe i ndáil le hoibreacha bóthair, ní raibh gléas ar bith ann go dtí seo chun airgead a chur ar fáil do na bóithre áise. Ar an ábhar sin agus ó tharla gur léir don Roinn anois go bhfuil an-éileamh ar chabhair i leith na mbóthar áise, tá socair furmhór Chise na mBothar sa bhFo-mhírcheann seo a chaitheamh, faid a bheas gá leis sin, ar na bóithre áise.

2. Scéimeanna Uisce-Sholáthair: Tá dhá chineál deontais á dtabhairt ag an Roinn do na húdaráis áitiúla i leith scéimeanna uisce-sholáthair— deontas 50 fán gcéad—60 fán gcéad i gcás caidéal agus mionscéimeanna píopaithe agus cumhachta, agus deontas 25 fán gcéad i gcás scéimeanna réigiúnacha. Tá réamhobair fhairsing a ghabhas le scéimeanna den tsórt sin, agus sin é an fáth nach raibh mórán á íoc ina leith ag an Roinn i dtosach báire. Le bliain anuas, ámh, táthar tar éis cuid mhaith scéimeanna a thosnú agus is cosúil, anois, go mbeidh méadú mór ar an gcaiteachas faoi na scéimeanna seo, go háirithe na scéimeanna réigiúnacha, sa bhliain airgeadais reatha. Tríd is tríd mar sin táthar sásta leis an scéim deontaisí seo sa mhéid go bhfuil ag éirí leis cuspóir na Roinne a bhaint amach agus go bhfuil borradh ag teacht faoi chúrsaí uisce-sholáthair sa Ghaeltacht agus go bhfuil scéimeanna á gcur i gcrích cheana féin gur chosúil nach dtosnófaí go ceann i bhfad orthu mura mbeadh gur cuireadh deontas ar fáil dóibh ón Roinn.

3. Mion-Oibreacha Mara: Scéim trína gcuirtear ar chumas na Roinne deontaisí 100 fán gcéad den chostas a chur ar fáil i leith muir-oibreacha áirithe sa Ghaeltacht ar choinníoll go mbeidh na húdaráis áitiúla iomchuí sásta cothabháil na n-oibreacha sin a ghlacadh mar chúram orthu féin tar éis a ndéanta. Fágtar faoi Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí, de ghnáth, tograí den tsórt sin a chur i gcrích, agus sa bhliain seo caite d'éirigh leo oibreacha áirithe a chur i gcrích ar chostas os cionn £3,000. Tá clár oibre i bhfad níos leithne leagtha amach don bhlian seo agus má éiríonn le hOifig na nOibreacha Poiblí an clár sin a chomhlíonadh meastar go mbeidh caiteachas £14,000 ann ar oibreacha éagsúla.

4. Scéim Saoráidí Ilghnéitheacha: Tá scéim ag an Roinn trína dtugtar deontaisí suas go dtí 80 fán gcéad den chostas measta i ndáil le saoráidí éagsúla, cuir i gcás pinniúirí liathróid láimhe, faichí imeartha, linnte snámha, etc. Tá roinnt éigin deontaisí ceadaithe cheana féin faoin scéim agus tá eadarbheartaíocht ar siúl ag an Roinn le Coistí Áitiúla i dtaobh timpeall dosaen cás den tsórt sin i láthair na huaire. Is ábhar iontais é, ámh, a laghad tairbhe is a baineadh as na deontaisí seo ó tugadh isteach iad.

Maidir leis na scéimeanna trialacha maoth-thorthaí ar cuireadh tús leo i gContae Chiarraighe anuraidh, is féidir a rá go bhfuil forás ag teach fúthu do réir a chéile. Tá scéimeanna beaga den tsórt chéanna bunaithe anois i gContae Choraighe agus i gContae Phortláirge le comh-oibriú na gCoistí Talmhaíochta ansin.

5. Scéim na Muc: Bhíothas sásta go maith leis an gcuma inar éirigh leis an Scéim seo anuraidh. Tugadh 159 cránacha ar fad amach faoin scéim anuraidh agus tá socair timpeall 50 cráin eile a thabhairt amach i mbliana.

6. Scéim na dTrátaí: Tá socrú déanta chun go gcuirfear airgead ar fáil as fo-mhírcheann G i mbliana d'fhonn Scéim na dTrátaí a leathnú sa Ghaeltacht. Tá tosnaithe cheana féin ar ghléasanna téimh a chur isteach i naoi gcinn déag de na tithe gloine i gConamara. Tá gach ullmhúchán déanta freisin chun go bhféadfar timpeall fiche teach nua faoi theas a thógáil i gceantar Chonamara agus b'fhéidir 20 teach eile faoi theas a chur ar fáil i gceantar Thuar Mhic Éadaigh i gContae Mhuigheo. Táthar ag súil leis go bhféadfar an obair sin uile a chur i gcrích in am do shéasúr na bliana 1960/61.

7. An Scéim chun Cabhrú le Meánscolaíocht sa Ghaeltacht: Tá ag éirí go maith leis an scéim seo. I rith na bliana seo caite ceadaíodh deontais i dtrí cásanna. I gcás amháin tá an obair ar fad críochnaithe agus tá an mheánscoil ag obair faoi lán-tseol cheana féin. Tá an dá chás eile ag dul ar aghaidh go sásúil. Diúltaíodh aon iarratas amháin i rith na bliana agus tá dhá iarratas eile faoi bhreithniú go fóill ag an Roinn.

Faoi Fho-Mhírcheann H den Mheastachán, tá míle punt á sholáthar arís i mbliana chun deontais bheaga a thabhairt le haghaidh imeachtaí cultúrtha agus sóisialacha sa Ghaeltacht. I rith na bliana seo caite do híocadh roinnt deontaisí i leith Féilí Drámaíochta sa Ghaeltacht agus ina theannta san tugadh cúnamh airgid chun taifeadáin reatha agus óirnéisí ceoil a chur ar fáil do Choistí Áitiúla sa Ghaeltacht ar mhaithe le cúrsaí ceoil agus cúrsaí caidrimh.

Déantar soláthar faoi Fho-Mhírcheann L le haghaidh an Deontais £5 a tugtar, faoi scéim a bunaíodh i 1934, do thuismitheoirí nó caomhnóirí, sa Ghaeltacht nó sa Bhreac-Ghaeltacht, i leith páistí scoile leo idir 6—16 bliana d'aois arb í an Ghaeilge teanga a dteaghlaigh agus a labhrann í go líofa nádúrtha. Scéim an-tábhachtach í seo arb é a cuspóir an Ghaeilge a chothú agus a choinneáil mar theanga teaghlaigh sa Ghaeltacht. Gheibheann tuairim 4,600 teaghlach deontas faoin scéim i leith tuairim 10,000 páiste ar fad.

Faoi Fho-mhírcheann N den Mheastachán (Taispeántais Drámaíochta Gaeilge), tá méadú ó £2,000 go dtí £2,500 déanta i mbliana sa tsoláthar don Deontas a íoctar le Taibhdhearc na Gaillimhe chun feabhsuithe áirithe atá ar intinn ag na Stiúrthóirí a chur i gcrích. Ina theannta sin, tá £700 á sholáthar chun deontaisí a chur ar fáil do na Chumainn bheaga drámaíochta sa Ghaeltacht. Íocfar na deontaisí tar éis moladh a fháil ó Choiste Comhairlitheach i ngach ceann de na ceantair Ghaeltachta.

Faoi Fho-mhírcheann O den Mheastachán tugtar cúnamh airgid do choistí áitiúla, faoi scéim a bunaíodh i 1936, chun scoláireachtaí saoire sa Ghaeltacht a thabhairt do pháistí ó áiteanna lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Sa bhliain 1958 bhí méadú mór ar líon na bpáistí a bhí páirteach sa scéim i gcomparáid leis an mbliain roimhe sin agus tá súil agam go mbeidh méadú níos mó fós ann i mbliana. Tá coinníollacha na scéime athraithe anois chun go mbeidh ar chumas daltaí sna Meán-scoileanna páirt a ghlacadh ann agus chuige sin tá an uasteorainn aoise ardaithe go 17 bliana. Tá méadu cuí déanta san Mheastachán ó £1,600 anuraidh go £3,750 i mbliana agus tá súil agam go mbainfidh an oiread daltaí agus is féidir tairbhe as an scéim.

Maidir le Scéim na mBád Iascaigh, faoi mar a chuireas in iúl don Dáil anuraidh tá cúig báid mhóra, ar chostas tuairim £12,000 an ceann, curtha ar fáil cheana féin agus tá ceithre báid bheaga, ar chostas tuairim £800 an ceann, tugtha amach le déanaí. Beidh tuilleadh de na báid bheaga seo á n-eisiúint i rith na bliana seo.

Níl ach cúpla bliain caite ó cuireadh Roinn na Gaeltachta ar bun agus tuigeann an Dáil go maith an méid oibre atá le déanamh chun cuspóirí na Roinne a bhaint amach. Ní bheidh éinne ag súil go bhféadfaí é go léir a dhéanamh in éineacht. I ndiaidh a chéile a tógtar na caisleáin, agus tá dóchas agam go n-éireoidh leis an Roinn do réir a chéile saol agus cor maireachtála mhuintir na Gaeltachta a fheabhsú agus a chur chun cinn. Is maith liom é bheith le rá agam go bhfuil comhoibriú agus comhairle le fáil go fial ó údaráis agus comhaltaí agus daoine a bhfuil spéis acu sa Ghaeltacht. Bíonn lucht gearáin ann freisin ar ndóigh ach ní hiontas go mbeadh mí-fhoighid ar dhaoine faoin slí ina bhfuil cúrsaí saoil sa Ghaeltacht agus faoin staid ina bhfuil an teanga féin i ndiaidh na mblianta d'obair na hathbheochana. Tá an Roinn ag iarraidh leas na Gaeltachta agus leas na Gaeilge a chur chun cinn le chéile agus déanaimíd iarracht, i scéimeanna uile na Roinne, tús a thabhairt do na ceantracha Fíor-Ghaeltachta agus do na daoine a labhrann an Ghaeilge de ghnáth agus a choinníonn beo bríomhar í ina dtithe muintire féin. Is deimhin liom go n-aontóidh an Dáil liom go bhfuil an ceart againn sa méid sin.

Pádraig Mac Loingsigh

Ní mian liom aon rud a rá ar an Meastacháin seo. Ní raibh cúis an oráid a thug an tAire ach gaisgaíocht an luch ar meisce.

Micheál Ó Móráin

An é sin an méid atá rá ag an dTeachta?

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Is ait agus is íontach nach bhfuil tada le rá ag aon duine den Fhreasúra ar an Meastachán—nach bhfuil moladh nó locht le fáil uathu ar an ráiteas a thug an tAire uaidh. Dá bhfaigheadh siad locht air le go bhfeabhasófaí é, níor bhfhéidir a rá ansin go rabhadar ag déanamh neamhshuime den Ghaeltacht. Ní bhainim-se meabhar ar bith as a dtost ach gur beag í a spéis i nGaeilge nó sa nGaeltacht.

Is ar mhaithe leis an teanga atá an Roinn seo ann agus na habhair chaiteachais atá luaite ag an Aire. Tá maitheas dá dhéanamh dá mbarr; ach is fánach a bheith ag súil go sabhálfar an teanga mar bheo-theanga gan í a scaipeadh ar fud na tíre. Is ionann sabháil na Gaeilge agus a h-aithbheochaint go coitian. Ba sórt críochdheighilt eile é da mbeadh cuid den tír taobh le teanga amháin agus teanga eile ag an gcuid eile den phobal— muintir na Gaeltachta, gan buachtáil Béarla acu, agus lucht an Bhéarla agus gan acu ach beagán eolais ar an teanga, agus a mhalairt de scéal sa chuid eile den tír. I gcás mar sin tuigeann gach duine a bhfuil intleacht dá laghad aige go bhfuil géar-ghá le scaipeadh na teanga.

Mar sin is ionann sábháil na Gaeltachta, sábháil na Gaeilge agus scaipeadh na Gaeilge. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir an teanga a shábháil mura bhfuil fonn láidir ar mhuintir na tíre an teanga a thabhairt ar ais arís mar bhun-teanga na tíre. Is duine den tuairim sin mise a chreideas gur féidir an dá theanga a bheith go maith ag muintir na hÉireann.

Tá sé cruthaithe cheana ag muintir na Gaeltachta go bhfuil siad indon máistireacht an Bhéarla a bhaint amach freisin. Ba mhaith liomsa a thuigsint go ndéanfaidh an chuid eile den tír an rud chéana a dhéanamh i dtaobh na Gaeilge. Mar sin is soléir dom gur obair sár-mhaith atá faoi lámha ag na Gaeilgeoirí anseo i mBaile Atha Cliath agus caithfidh mé Baile Cliath a mholadh freisin as ucht a bhful déanta ag lucht na teangan chun fáilte agus cúram a thabhairt do na daoine a thagann don chathair seo ón nGaeltacht. Cuidíonn siad leo agus taispeánann siad dóibh go bhfuil meas acu ortha. Láimh leis sin déanann siad tréan-iarracht an teanga a mhúineadh agus a scaipeadh i measc a gclainne féin.

Tá freisin anseo i mBaile Atha Cliath gluaiseacht mór i dtaobh scríobh na Gaeilge agus is iontach go bhfuil dhá pháipear in Gaeilge le fáil ann, cheann amháin acu gach uile mí agus an ceann eile gach uile sheachtain.

Tá sárobair á dhéanamh ag Club na Leabhar agus ina dtaobh sin freisin tá fhios againn nach bhfuil aon tagairt déanta dó faoin Meastachán seo.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sin mo thuairimse leis.

Gearóid Mac Pharthaláin

Ach tá dlúth-bhaint idir an obair atá déanta ag an Aire agus an cuspóir atá taobhthiar den obair sin, eadhon, scaipeadh na Gaeilge ar fud na tíre.

Is cuma cad a deireann lucht cáinte agus na daoine a bhíos ag fáil locht toisc natch bhfuil na Gaeltachta níos fairsinge. Deireann daoine eile go bhfuil siad ag cumhaingiú ach tá na Gaeltachta láidir de bharr a bhfuil déanta ag an Aire dóibh. I dtaobh na Gaeltachta a bhfuil sár-eolas agam féin uirthi is é mo thuairim go bhfuil teorainn na Gaeltachta sin sna háiteacha a raibh siad dhá scór bliain ó shoin.

Tá fhios agam go bhfuil eolas níos fearr ar an mBéarla ins na Gaeltachta ná mar a bhí an t-am sin ach má tá, sin í polasaí díreach an Rialtais agus na Roinne Oideachais agus cuidíonn sé sin le muintir na Gaeltachta féin. Tá an Béarla acu comh mhaith leis an nGaeilge.

Ní mar sin a bhí an scéal i gcónaí Roimhe sin, san tsean-am níor múineadh Gaeilge sna scolanna agus ba bheag an chuid Béarla a múineadh iontu freisin. Ó thosaigh muid ar Rialtas na tíre tá eolas ag gach duine óg ar an dá theanga, Béarla is Gaeilge a scríobh agus a lán rudaí nach raibh ann fadó.

Is é mo thuairim gur cheart an Ghaeilge a spreagadh ar fud na tíre agus i nDáil Éireann freisin. Is féidir le gnáth-mhuintir na hÉireann cuidiú leis seo.

Ar an gcaoi sin, chomh maith is atá na scéimeanna atá luaite ag an Aire —agus tásiad le moladh—ní eireoidh linn an Ghaeilge a shábháil dá mbarr sin amháin ach tá na scéimeanna sin ag tabhairt compóird agus árdú caighdeáin maireachtála do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus fiú dá bharr sin féin tá an obair atá ar siúl ag an Aire le moladh. Tá muintir na Gaeltachta buíoch de as a n-ucht agus cé go gcloisinn sé—agus tá fhios agam go gcluineann sé go minic—lyucht cáinte ag caitheadh anuas air féin agus ar an Roinn, tógfaidh sé uaimse go bhfuil formhór mhuintir na Gaeltachta buíoch de as ucht a bhfuil sé ag iarraidh a dhéanamh ar a son.

Ní dóigh liom gur gá cuidiú leis an óráid atá déanta ag an Aire. Tá cuid mhaith luaite aige féin. Tuigim-se b'fhéidir níos fearr ná an chuid is mó de na Comhaltaí chomh maith is atá sé ag leagadh anuas ó ceapadh mar Aire na Gaeltachta é. Mar dúirt mé nuair thosaigh mé, tá an-díombáidh orm tar éis bheith ag éisteacht leis an gcaint ón taobh eile den Tigh. Murach é, tá seans, b'fhéidir, nach bhfanfainn féin ar mo dhá chois chomh fada is d'fhan mé.

Molaim an t-Aire agus guím rath Dé ar an obair atá idir lámha aige.

Mr. Blowick

I have been a member of this House since 1943 and a more pitiful or pathetic document I never saw presented by a Minister to cover a Department than the one the Minister has given the House.

Mr. Davern

Shame.

Mr. Blowick

Somebody says, "Shame." I am glad the Deputy realises it because I think it is a shame. I shall not deal with the Estimate beyond asking the Minister is this the Fianna Fáil effort for the Gaeltacht from Donegal to Kerry?

Mr. Moloney

Tell us what you did.

Mr. Blowick

I did plenty and if you get your Minister for the Gaeltacht and Minister for Lands to do as much for the Gaeltacht as the inter-Party Government did, you will be doing very well.

Mr. Cunningham

And Industry and Commerce, too?

Mr. Blowick

And Industry and Commerce, too.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should deal with the Estimate.

Mr. Blowick

This is really an insult to the people of the Gaeltacht. It is a piece of deliberate humbug, trying to convince the people of the Gaeltacht that something has been done, whereas absolutely nothing is being done. I make a suggestion to the Minister. I do not know whether it will have any effect or not. Would it not be much better to abolish his Department altogether and give the money provided for it to the Minister for Lands to give permanent employment in forestry and other works, instead of this humbug?

An Ceann Comhairle

That would require legislation—the abolition of Roinn na Gaeltachta.

Mr. Blowick

I am sorry to say that even legislation is not drastic enough to deal with what I describe as this piece of blackguardism on the Gaeltacht. Fianna Fáil talk from one year to the other about preserving the languyage, about what great people the people of the Gaeltacht are, and all the rest. The Minister has relegated them by this document to the category of outcasts who are not worthy of anything. I would make one suggestion to the Minister: He ought to resign decently if his Government will not give him more money to do something for the Gaeltacht besides this. He should, for once in his life, act the gentleman and resign.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Is aisteach an óráid atá an Teachta Ó Bláthmhaic tar éis a dhéanamh mar tuigeann sé go rí-mhaith go bhfuil a lán déanta ag Rialtas Fianna Fáil le blianta anuas ar son na Gaeltachta agus muintir na Gaeltachta agus nach bhfuil anseo ach gné amháin den obair a rinneadh agus den obair atá ar siúl ag an Rialtas ar son na háite sin.

Níl an Roinn seo curtha ar bun ach le cúpla blian anuas agus is inmholta an iarracht atá á dhéanamh. Mar dúirt an tAire, bíonn daoine ann a deir nach bhfuil go leor á dhéanamh. Is fíor é sin. Tá na daoine sin ann. Is ait an óráid a chualamar annseo anocht ó iar-Aire den Fhreasabhra, a bhí ar na binsí seo agus a chuidigh leis an Roinn a chur ar bun. 'Sé an Fhreasabhra a thug isteach an Bille a chuir an Roinn seo ar bun agus bhí an Teachta Ó Bláthmhaic ina Bhall den Rialtas sin mar Aire. Chuir sé os cóir na Dála anocht an cheist gur cheart an Roinn seo do chur ar ceal— cad na thaobh, níor dhúirt sé. B'fhéidir gur dhúirt sé sin nuair bhí ó shoin i bhfeidhm. Níl fhios agam.

Sílim féin go bhfuil dhá chuspóir ag an Roinn nó go mba cheart go mbeadh dhá chuspóir aici, is é sin, cabhrú leis an teanga a chur chun cinn sa Ghaeltacht agus cabhrú leis na daoine ansin slí mhaireachtála fháil. Tá an dá chuspóir sin fite fuaite le chéile.

Taobh amuigh de Roinn na Gaeltachta féin, tá sé d'oibliogáid ar an Rialtas cabhrú le daoine atá i na gcónaí i gceanntracha bochta mar atá sa Ghealtacht. Dá mba é an Béarla a bhí ar siúl mar theanga nádúrdha na ndaione, bhéadh sé d'oibliogáid ar an Rialtas carbhrú leo. Tarlaíonn sé gurab í an Ghaeltacht tobair fíoruisce na Gaeilge agus, dá bharr sin, tá sé mar oibliogáid níos mó ar an Rialtas agus, go speisialta ar Roinn na Gaeltachta, an dá chuspóir a luaigh mé a chur chun cinn.

Tá daoine ann a deir go bhfuil limistéir na Gaeltachta ag dul i laghad, go bhfuil úsáid na teangan sa Ghaeltacht ag fáil bháis. Ní chreidim é sin ar chor ar bith. Chomh fada agus a thuigim, i nGealtacht Thírchonaill, tá leathnú ag teacht ar an uimhir a bhfuil an Ghaeilge go h-an-mhaith acu.

Tá sé fíor go bhfuil níos mó daoine sa Ghaeltacht inniu atá ábalta Gaeilge agus Béarla a labhairt chomh maith le chéile ná bhí blianta ó shoin.

Sílim nach bhfuil aon ní mí-cheart é bheith mar sin. Taobh amuigh de dhream an-bheag sa tír seo ar fad, aontaíonn gach aon duine gurb é an aidhm atá againn an Ghaeilge a chur dá labhairt chomh maith le Béarla sa dóigh go mbeidh an tír dá-theangach.

Ní féidir linn ár siúl a roinnt agus a rá gcaithfimíd an tír a dhéanamh Gaelach agus gan ach teanga amháin agus sin an Ghaeilge.

Níl ach fíor-bheagán ar an intinn sin anois. Táimid go léir aontaithe gur ceart an dá theanga a reachtáil taobh le taobh agus gurb é an té is fearr nó an té gur féidir leis Gaeilge mhaith a labhairt agus Béarla maith freisin. Tá curtha ar ár súile dúinn ag an Aire go bhfuil seacht nó ocht de ghnéithe éagsúla cabhrach tugtha don Ghaeltacht le dhá bhliain anuas. Luaigh sé seacht gcinn de rudaí atá usáideach agus a bhfuil buntáiste le fáil ag muintir na Gaeltachta astu. Sílim fhéin gur gá cabhair a thabhairt d'fheabhsú tithe cónaithe sa Ghaeltacht, d'fheabhsú na mbóithre ansin, gur rudaí an-mhaithe iad.

Taobh amuigh de sin tá deontaisí dá dtabhairt chun obair a dhéanamh i Ranna eile den Stát agus is mór an trua nár luaigh an tAire na rudaí sin chun a thaiseáint do dhaoine mar an Teachta Ó Bláthmhaic nach éseo an t-aon rud amáin atá ar siúl. Creidim go mbíonn comhrá agus cainteanna idir an Aire agus Airí eile. Cuir i gcás tá sé intuigthe go mbeadh comhoibriú idir Aire na Gaeltachta agus an Aire Tailte, an tAire atá i bhfeighil cur chun chinn iascaireachta agus foraoiseachta sa Ghaeltacht. Le bliain anuas taobh amuigh den chaiteachas atá luaite anseo, caitheach mórán ar fhorbairt na hiascaireachta agus caitheadh suim níos mó i mbliana ná riamh ar fhoraoiseacht; agus den mhéid sin chuaigh cuid mhaith go dtí ceantracha na Gaeltachta.

Mar an gcéanna leis an Roinn Tionscail agus Tráchtála, ba cheart go mbeadh, agus tá mé ag súil go raibh cainteanna ag an Aire agus comhoibirú ag an Aire leis an Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála. Tá Bille os comhair an Tí fé láthair, an Bille Min-fhéir, rud a cuireadh ar siúl sa Ghaeltacht nuair a bhí muintir Fianna Fáil ina Rialtas ó 1951 go 1953 nó 1954, ach rud a chur an Rialtas idir-Pháirteach ar ceal. Ní hé an t-aon rud amháin gur cuireadar ar ceal é sa Ghaeltacht ach chuireadar rudaí ar ceal sa chuid eile den tír chomh maith.

Pádraig Ó Domhnaill

Ní raibh an áit sa Ghaeltacht ar chor ar bith.

Liam Mac Cuinneagáin

Fé láthair tá scéimeanna nua ar siúil, suir i gcás scéimeanna atá leagtha faoi Act na dTithe. Sílim féin gur cabhair maith do mhuintir na Gaeltachta an deontas a thabharfar do na "chalets" ansin ach tá mé féin den bharúil gur ceart leathnú ar an scéim sin sa dóigh go mbeidh daoine taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht i ndon tithe a thógáil in san Ghaeltacht. Má chuirtear teach ar siúl sa Ghaeltacht beidh an teach annsin agus is dóigh go mbeidh an t-airgead le tógáil an tí sa Ghaeltacht freisin. Má théann an plean annsin, má tá glacadh leis ansin agus má théann an teaghlach ar saoire, caithfidh siad airgead feasta ansin. Má chuireann siad an teach ar cíos nuair a bheas a gclann féin críochnaithe leis, pé duine a thagann sa teach annsin caithfidh siad airgead chomh maith. Molfainn go ndéanfaí sin agus ba chabhair é don Gaeltacht.

Fé láthair tá Gaeltarra Éireann, ina Bhórd neamhspleách don Rialtas. Bhí gearán agam le daoine ar an slí a cuireadh éadach bréidín ar fáil ar fud na tíre ar luach timpeall 5/6d. agus 6/- an tslat. Sin ceann de na céad rudaí a rinne an Bórd nua. Rinne siad sin ag am go raibh caochló beag tagartha ar déantúis an bhréidín. Rinne siad sin ag am go raibh gach aon duine a bhí in san tionscal sin á fháil deacair an bréidín a dhíol taobh amuigh den tír. B'éigin dóibh é a dhíol ar luach saor go leor ar fud na tíre seo. Ach ansin tháining an Bórd agus pé éadach ar bith a bhí ar na seilpeanna le blianta anuas, "flagáil" siad é ar fuid na tíre go léir, sa treo go ndearna siad an scéal i bhfad níos measa. Níl fhios agam gur ceart go ndéanfaidh aon Roinn Stáit rud mar sin. Bhí orthu an t-éadach a dhíol uair éigin ach do bhféidir leo fanúint go dtí go mbeadh an díolíocht ar luachanna ísle thart. Sílim go bhfuil rud eile ansin freisin. Sílim go mbeadh ar Bhord na Gaeltachta an t-airgead d'aisioc leis an Aire Airgeadais. Má leanann siad ag déanamh rudaí cosúil le díol an bhréidín mar a rinne siad agus má dhéanann siad an rud céanna onsna tionscail eile atá acu ní bheidh ag a gcumas an t-airgead a ba chóir doibh a aisíoc, a aisíoc leis an Aire.

Níl aon chúis éadóchais ann i dtaobh dul siar nó dul ar gcúl labhairt na Gaeilge. Is maith a chloisint fiú amháin i mBaile Átha Cliath—an Gaeilge á labhairt sna stráideanna, ins na busanna, agus mar sin. Do bhí an Ghaeltacht dílis don Gaeilge. Do thug muinntir na Gaeltachta caoi do dhaoine an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim leis na blianta anuas agus go háirithe do tugadh caoi do oidi scoile dul go dtí an Ghaeltacht chun an teanga líofa d'fáil ann. Inniu, tá gach duine sa tír fé, abair, tríocha bliain d'aois, indon an Ghaeilge a thuigsint agus tá an chuid is mó acu indon í a scriobh agus a léamh. Sílim féin nach bhfuil aon chontúirt ann go bhfaigh an teanga bás.

Fé láthair, ar fud na tíre, tá gá ann le spiorad chun daoine do mhuscailt chun an teanga do labhairt i bhfad nios mó. Tá roinnt daoine ann agus tá eagla orthu an Ghaeilge do labhairt toisc go gceapann siad nach bhfuil sí go maith acu. Nuair a cloistear iad a caint is léir go bhfuil togha na Gaeilge acu agus nach bhfuil de dhith orthu ach taithí. Do bhí cruinniú de Theachtaí le déanaí agus do chuadar tríd an obair ar fad trí Ghaeilge. Is mór an trua nach labhrann nios mó Teachtaí trí Ghaeilge anseo. Tá a bheag nó mhór de Ghaeilge ag an gcuid is mo de na Teachtaí anseo agus, biodh sé beag nó mór, ba chór doibh í a labhairt.

Is é an rud is mó atá de dhíth orainn anois ná sampla. Is gá sampla do na Teachtai, do na Stáitseirbhisigh agus do na daoine a mhúnlaíonn "popular opinion." Is mór an chabhair é sampla chun an Ghaeilge do chur ar aghaidh. Ní cóir go ndéanfaí buntáiste politicíuil as an nGaeilge. Sílim nach ndéantar é sin ag gach aon dream. Tá an Rialtas ar an dtaobh seo agus gach dream ar an dtaobh eile den Tigh ar aon aigne faoi cheist na Gaeilge. Biodh is go bhfuil an scéal mar sin, pé rud a thárlaíonn ar na Meastacháin eile nó pé rud a tharlaíonn ar pé Bille a beadh ós comhair an Tí, ní ceart go dtarlódh sé go mbeadh sé ar aon dream amháin anseo an Gaeilge a labhairt ar an Meastachán seo. Fiú amháin an méid beag daoine atá sa ngaleri fé láthair, deárfaidh siad go bhfuil sampla an-olc á thabhairt as ucht an líon beag Teachtaí atá anseo fé láthair agus, fosta, gur deallrach go raibh an oiread sin beagáin spéis ag na Teachtaí sna Pairtithe eile sa Meastachán seo ná labhródh siad in nGaeilge.

Mr. Coogan

I think this Department has failed to justify its existence. As far as I can see, it has got a crumb off the table of every Department to justify its existence, and nothing more. It is a waste of good officers in the Department. I shall pay them that tribute. These men were specially selected for that Department but there is no imangination at the head. I suggest the Minister should hand over the whole Department to Gael-Linn. They have imagination and approach to things. They have done things that our Department had no idea of doing.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would probably require legislation and it is not in order to advocate legislation on the Estimate.

Mr. Coogan

I maintain their activities have not stopped one emigrant and that that is why this Department was set up, to deal with areas that are being bled white by emigration. They want imagination. They want a better policy than one of merely growing a few onions in Aran, and so on. As I am on the question of Aran I would like the Department to safeguard a little industry there. The Aran crios and the Aran sweater are now being made in the backrooms of this city. They are being cashed in on by the smart boys of this town and I hope the Department will do something to stop that.

On the question of the grant in respect of school children in the Gaeltacht, it is a very mean thing for some of these officers to go around and give the impression they are tourists. They walk into a house and if the people in the house think they are tourists, naturally they will address them in the language the tourists know, the English language. The report then goes back that Irish is not the spoken language of that home and these people are deprived of what they are entitled to. If you want to save the Irish language you must save the Irish speakers from emigrating.

Seán Mac Eochagáin

Ba mhaith liom an tAire a mholadh ar son an Mheastacháin seo. Taispeánann sé don Teach agus don tír go bhfuil suim aige sa teanga agus sa nGaeltacht agus is mór an náire don Teachta Ó Cuagain labhairt i mBéarla ar an Meastacháin seo.

Fionntan Ó Cuagain

B'fhéidir go bhfuil níos mó Gaeilge agam ná mar tá ag an Teachta, ach fágtar an scéal mar atá sé.

Seán Mac Eochagáin

Táim cinnte go mbreathnóaidh an tAire agus an Roinn isteach i gcúpla poinnte atá agam le cur féna mbráid. Tá go léor daoine i mo cheantar go mbíonn an íocaíocht dheire den deontas tithe ag dul dóibh agus cuirtear cigire thart chun an scéal a scrúdú. Ní féidir le aon cigire amháin gach cás a scrúdú i nDún na nGall, Muigheo, Gaillimh agus an Clár. Dá bhrí sin tá daoine ag fanacht leis an deontas le trí mhí anuas agus níl sé acu fós. Ba cheart cigire sa bhreis a chur ar fáil ionus gur féidir le cigire amháin taisteal a dhéanamh i nDún na nGall agus i Muigheo agus an cigire eile sa nGaillimh agus sa Chlár.

Tá gearán eile ann i dtaobh na dtithe nua atá ann. Tháinig an cigire amach le sé mhí anuas agus d'iarr ar na daoine a bhí ag cur suas na dtithe úlaireachta do shaghas áirithe adhmaid in ionad na sean chinn do chur isteach. Ní dóigh liom gur cheart cur isteach ar na daoine mar sin, mar níl aon locht ar na úrlaireacha a bhí ann cheana féin.

Deir cuid de na Teachtaí go bhfuil an teanga ag dul i laige sa Ghaeltacht. Ní aontaím leis sin. Tá labhairt na teanga ag dul i bfeabhas agus, le cúnamh Dé, tiocfaidh feabhas níos fearr air do réir a chéile.

Tá ceist eile agam i dtaobh deontas na bpáistí scoile. Cuir i gcás go bfágann fear óg an tír seo chun dul go hAlbain nó go Sasana. B'fhéidir go bpósann sé cailín taobh amuigh den Gaeltacht. Tagann sé abhaile agus socraíonn sé síos sa Ghaeltacht. B'fhéidir go mbeidh clann aca agus nuair a bhíonn siad ag dul ar scoil agus nuair a thagann siad go dtí am an deontais, ocht bliana d'aois, tagann an cigire thart agus deireann sé nach í an Ghaeilge teanga an tí. Ní hé sin locht na mná mar nach raibh an teanga aici ó dhúchais. Ba cheart don Aire bhreathnú isteach sa scéal seo ionus go mbronnfar an deontas ar dhaoine mar seo chomh fada agus atá an teanga foghluimthe aca. Ma tá an teanga ar fheabhas aca is ceart an deontas a thabhairt.

Mar adúras, molaim an tAire as son an Meastacháin seo, ar son na hoibre atá sé ag déanamh ar son mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus ar son na teanga.

Mr. Moloney

Unfortunately my speaking knowledge of Irish is not sufficiently good to enable me to address the House in the native language. As a Deputy coming from a constituency part of which is in the Gaeltacht, I am pleased with the progress made in the Department of the Gaeltacht in the past year.

Mr. Coogan

Tell us what it was.

Mr. Moloney

At the same time, in the Gaeltacht I represent it should have been possible to introduce further activities during the year under review. However, every beginning is weak and one finds some evidence of progress no matter how small, and we have to be grateful for it.

Shortly after the Minister took over the Department of the Gaeltacht, he announced the introduction of regional water schemes for the Gaeltacht under a special grant. I am glad to say that quite a number of acute problems were taken care of in the North Kerry Gaeltacht under those schemes. The local authority had this proposal on their books for many years but due to a shortage of local finance were unable to undertake the necessary work. During the past 12 months the Kerry County Council, with the aid of grants from the Minister's Department, have provided for and almost completed 15 or 16 rural water supply schemes. The schemes, as I have said already, are in many instances complete and are in service. I am very happy to be able to tell the Minister this evening that the local people who have so far benefited from those schemes are entirely grateful to his Department for the initiative and assistance which they have given in this matter.

Furthermore, I am glad to be able to record that the tourist potential of the particular districts so serviced has increased considerably due to the fact that the householders in these particular villages and areas are in a position to tell the visitors who are anxious to come to the Gaeltacht that they have running water in their homesteads. That development in itself over a period of 12 months completely justifice the establishment of a separate department for the Gaeltacht. All we have to do is to compare the Breac-Ghaeltacht and the Gaeltacht in other parts of County Kerry in the matter of these amenities to which I have referred and we find a vast difference between the respective areas.

I do not want to suggest at this stage that the schemes which have been provided over the past 12 months have covered the entire requirements of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht in North Kerry. Indeed, very far from it. I rather feel that the Minister might now push the local authority a little bit in this matter. Evidently, the schemes which have been executed came about as a result of a list of proposals which the local authority passed some years ago and had on their books as I have already said. For some reason which I find it very hard to explain the local authority has not proceeded to envestigate the requirements of other villages and districts in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht in question. I do not know whether it is possible or not or whether the Minister has power to do it but I would suggest that he might at least indicate to the local authority that they should prepare a further list of proposals and send it forward for approval here.

It is, of course, to be expected that the villages and districts which have not been supplied have become a bit impatient. They are inclined to feel at times that the grants which had been in operation through the Minister's Department may not continue and that they might find themselves eventually without the amenities which have been provided for their neighbours.

The Minister also introduced in Kerry—I am glad he referred to it in his report—the experimental scheme in connection with soft fruits. I can say that so far as the Department is concerned they got complete co-operation on the introduction of this scheme from the local County Committee of Agriculture. That particular body readily made available the services of a horticultural instructor to organise the soft fruit scheme for North Kerry Gaeltacht. This man is a very young man and very energetic and a man who had a very strong interest in pushing the scheme all over the Gaeltacht. He did not, however, influence a sufficiently large number of people to embark upon this scheme. I do not know why the local people should be so conservative in this matter. A very liberal grant and technical assistance were available for the implementation of the scheme. As far as I can understand, a market was available for the many fruits that might successfully be grown in the district. In fact, I think that the price which could reasonably be expected for such goods was also reasonably satisfactory.

I feel that the Minister could add some weight to the scheme in question if it was possible for him to provide the local area directly with the services of a horticultural instructor who could work entirely through the Department. I want at the same time to reiterate what I have said about the work carried out by the local instructor. I do not want it to be in the least inferred that I am trying in any way to reflect on this man. He is doing very good work. Other responsibilities are pushed on to him and it is possible that he may not be able to give sufficient time to pushing the soft fruit scheme in the Kerry Gaeltacht.

I should like to tell the Minister that the people of the area are somewhat disappointed that, so far, the Department has not introduced the tomato-house scheme to the Kerry Gaeltacht. From the Minister's report and from other sources which come to our knowledge from time to time we know that in the Connemara Gaeltacht that scheme is being carried on in a rather extensive way. So far as I can understand, it has not been introduced in the Gaeltacht south of the Shannon. In the matter of growing tomatoes I think it would be possible to get a more satisfactory response than there is in the case of soft fruit. I understand that the people in the Gaeltacht feel that the growing of tomatoes in that particular area seems to be more suitable to the type of soil available than the growing of soft fruits. Apart from that, now that the Minister's Department is very well organised and running smoothly and efficiently, the Minister could be expected to introduce this scheme to the Kerry Gaeltacht. I appeal to him to try to do so at the earliest possible moment. I think I am correct in saying that the local co-operation which will be forthcoming for such a scheme will be quite satisfactory.

The Minister referred this evening in his report, when introducing the Estimate, to the Scéim na Muc. I can tell the Minister also that the applicants who succeeded in being allocated sows under that scheme are quite satisfied that it is a useful and remunerative source of revenue to supplement the other sources that these small holders had to eke out a living. I think, however, that the scheme, as it stands at the moment, is a bit conservative. As far as I know, it provides only for the allocation of sows to the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and does not enable an applicant in the Breac-Ghaeltacht to obtain the necessary facilities in this connection. If that is so, I would suggest to the Minister that he might widen the scheme.

There is a big potential in this line of activity. It is a type of work that seems to appeal to rural farmers and particularly to smallholders because they find it a very valuable source of income, as I have said already, to supplement their general means of livelihood. It is money very well spent. In addition to that, it provides the successful applicants with work to produce the crops, the cereals and all the rest necessary to feed the sows which they get under the scheme.

There is reference in the Minister's report to special miscellaneous amenities which are provided under the Vote for the Department. They are schemes whereby grants may be provided for handball alleys, playing pitches and swimming pools. In the matter of playing pitches the Minister is rendering a very signal service to the Gaeltacht if he can assist, without too much formality, in bringing to fruition any proposals which may come to him for providing them. The deficiencies in amenities in every Gaeltacht can be pin-pointed. One is swimming pools and the other is playing pitches for various kinds of games, particularly for children. I am glad that the Minister has taken the provision of swimming pools into the scope of the scheme because in the Kerry Gaeltacht there is a complete absence of any facilities for swimming. The western seaboard is rather dangerous, particularly for people who are not accomplished swimmers. For them bathing is especially dangerous and generally is not undertaken at all. Swimming pools that could be constructed at very moderate cost would provide a much-needed amenity, and would also increase tourist income in such an area.

The general scope of activities in the Munster Gaeltacht is something that I think could be extended considerably. We always felt, prior to the setting up of Roinn na Gaeltachta, that its predecessor, the Gaeltacht Services, seemed completely to forget that there was any Gaeltacht south of the Shannon. That statement might appear to be a little exaggerated, but the powers who have been charged with the responsibility of administering schemes in the Gaeltacht must admit that there were no small industries set up in the Kerry Gaeltacht under the auspices of the Gaeltacht Services, or even by Roinn na Gaeltachta since its establishment. The small industries I refer to are toy making, weaving and sea-weed industries, industries such as those that have been developed in Mayo and the Donegal Gaeltachts. I understand some of them have actually been developed by outside bodies such as Gael Linn who have gone into this line of business.

There is a complete absence of that type of home industry, if I may call it so, in our Gaeltacht, and we hope that the Minister will set about doing something in that connection during the coming year. We have the necessary personnel to operate any local schemes of that kind. I want to tell the Minister, though I am sure he knows it from his travels through our area, that we have one local industry that could be termed an industry. It is a knitwear industry near Dingle which is operated by a religious community. It provides good employment for a limited number of girls who are working in it under the management of the Sisters. Beyond that we have not one single other industry in the Kerry Gaeltacht, and I think we are entitled to our due proportion of whatever industries might be established under the auspices of Gaeltarra Éireann, or directly under the Departments.

There are various types of industries that I think would present themselves for consideration by whatever Department will eventually undertake that work. As far as I can see in connection with the expenditure of money under certain headings, according to the Minister's statement, during the past twelve months there was a carry-over in a number of cases, and there was a carry-over under this heading also. Like all other Gaeltachta there is considerable emigration from the Kerry Gaeltacht and, if any industries of the type I have suggested were established there, they would help to stem the tide of emigration and would give some optimistic prospect to the people who were born in that area, a prospect that would enable them to settle down permanently there and retain their native tongue, which we all so dearly love.

I find it hard to accept that the Munster Gaeltacht is not suitable for industries and, for that reason, I would like to know if the Minister has any explanation to give as to why industries of the type I suggest have not been initiated there in the past. At the same time I sincerely hope that the Minister, when concluding, will find it possible to give me some assurance that this very important matter will be examined. The people of the Kerry Gaeltacht are anxiously awaiting some proposals from the Department or Gaeltarra Eireann, as the case may be, in connection with the matters I have now raised, and I sincerely hope it will be possible for some progress to be reported on this particular matter during the coming twelve months.

Padraig Ó Dómhnall

Tá brón orm nach raibh mé i láthair nuair a bhí an tAire ag rá an méid a bhí le rá aige. Ó shoin léigh mé an óráid sin agus ar leathanach a 10 deireann sé:

Níl ach cúpla bliain caite ó cuireadh Roinn na Gaeltachta ar bun agus tuigeann an Dáil go maith an méid oibre atá le déanamh chun cuspóirí na Roinne a bhaint amach.

For the benefit of Deputy Moloney——

Mr. T. Lynch

And me.

Mr. O'Donnell

And Deputy Lynch, I shall explain that. The Minister says on page 10—and we are very greateful for his supplied statement— that it is only a few years since the Department of the Gaeltacht was established, and Deputies in the Dáil will understand the amount of work that has to be done. It is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 26 years since Fianna Fáil have got into power, and when that barnacled old warrior over there, the Parliamentary Secretary, had charge of this partilar Department.

Mr. Bartley

Look here, let the Deputy make his speech without my help. Why does he want to make a remark like that?

Mr. O'Donnell

I never thought of the Parliamentary Secretary to help.

Mr. Bartley

A speech like that is beginning to become personal. Cut out the personal reference.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not mean it personally.

Mr. Bartley

Let the Deputy choose his adjectives more carefully.

Mr. O'Donnell

I do not mean to make them personal.

Mr. Bartley

But the Deputy did. Let him choose his adjectives more carefully.

Mr. O'Donnell

I crossed with the Parliamentary Secretary a number of times on Fisheries and he applied certain adjectives to me.

Mr. Bartley

Do not ask for my help.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Parliamentary Secretary can rest assured that if I want assistance it is not to him I would look for it.

Mr. Bartley

Why then did he look for it?

Mr. O'Donnell

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will understand I do not mean it personally.

Mr. Bartley

Well, let the Deputy go ahead then.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am referring to him in the capacity of Parliamentary Secretary and I have no intention of being personal. I think he knows we have crossed swords on Fisheries and that if we do say things in this House we do not mean them personally.

Mr. Bartley

I did not say them.

Mr. O'Donnell

I beg your pardon. We will say no more than this. I shall not quote because we are speaking on a different Estimate. However, one would imagine that for the first time in the past 29 years we are now about to salvage the Gaeltacht from the position into which it has fallen. The Parliamentary Secretary had charge of this Department for a good while. Fianna Fáil have had charge of it since 1932 with the exception of a few years when we had Deputy Lindsay and Deputy Mulcahy endeavouring to do some of the things that we thought were necessary to bring it out of the mire into which it had fallen but, when here we find a Minister introducing an Estimate telling us today that after all those years of Fianna Fáil Government there is so much to be done for the Gaeltacht that one could not expect very much in a year or so, we can only wonder.

Deputy Moloney is a gentleman for whom I have nothing but respect. I know the constituency he represents. I see the Ballyferriter Gaeltacht dwindling away as I see the Donegal Gaeltacht that Deputy Breslin and I represent dwindling away.

Mr. Geoghegan

Tell us more.

Mr. O'Donnell

I also see my friend, the Deputy from Galway here, and I see his Gaeltacht dwindling away, day after day, but I am very glad to see he has signified to me, not by word of mouth but by a shaking of the hand, that his is a prosperous Gaeltacht. I sincerely hope it will be put on record that we have the Deputy from the Connemara Gaeltacht telling us things were never more prosperous there than they are today. Am I right in interpreting that? I notice he does not give me that assent he gave me a few moments ago.

I had the unfortunate privilege the other morning of seeing five busloads of migrants leaving the Rosses—the Rosses and Gweedore region—the largest Gaeltacht in this country. We see them slip out day by day after approximately twenty years of Fianna Fáil, twenty years of endeavouring to push Irish down the throats of the Irish people, instead of encouraging those Irish speakers in the Irish Gaeltacht areas to remain in the country.

Sometimes it is amusing to me to hear Ministers get up in this House— I am not referring to the present Government alone; I am referring to the Government of which I had the honour of being a member—saying we are progressing, that the Irish language is going on fine. Yet when I find young Ministers in the present Government, Ministers who were taught through the medium of Irish in National Schools and Secondary Schools, and it is as much as they could do through that language as to pass the usual salutary blessing of "Dia dhuit," I must ask is the Irish language progressing?

A serious attempt was made to set up industries in the Gaeltacht. I do not wish to comment very much on that at this stage. Possibly later on I may but, if one considers that exodus out of our Irish speaking districts, one realises the futility of the efforts made by Fianna Fáil down through the years. I thought that at one stage they were doing something good by transplanting Irish families from the Galway Gaeltacht, the Kerry Gaeltacht, and the Donegal Gaeltacht into Meath, and I thought we were getting enthusiasts down in those localities to remain with those people, to encourage and foster the speaking of the Irish language. However, some prominent officials of Fianna Fáil who were teachers in those localities saw the futility of the efforts made and now we find them principal teachers, not in the Gaeltachta of Donegal, Galway, Mayo or Gibbstown, but somewhere in the neighbourhood of the City of Dublin.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would seem to be a matter for the Minister for Education rather than for the Minister for the Gaeltacht.

Mr. O'Donnell

I quite agree, but through the medium of the Minister for the Gaeltacht we dispense a certain amount of moneys through the deóntas to the children who speak Irish in various localities. Gibbstown was one of the places into which we poured a lot of money in those days, and I am referring to Gibbstown, that locality where we thought we would foster a second Gaeltacht.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely the Deputy is aware that scheme was administered by the Department of Lands?

Mr. O'Donnell

With great respect, all I can say is that there is such a thing as passing the buck, and when you find a decent family who are Irish speakers and cannot get the £5 deóntas to which they are entitled from the Department of Education, ultimately they are referred to the Department of the Gaeltacht, and they in turn pass the buck on. That is what has left the Gaeltacht as it is today.

There is one other matter to which I want to refer and that is what the Minister has done through the Gaeltacht Housing Inspectors. Their duty is to go around, first of all, and find out if Irish is the spoken language of the applicant for a reconstruction grant or a building grant. Deputy Geoghegan from Galway is fortunate. From Donegal we sent down an Inspector for whom we had nothing but the greatest respect.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy is not going to refer to officials individually.

Mr. O'Donnell

Far be it from me, Sir. The Minister appreciates the slip of my tongue I am sure.

Mr. Moran

Indeed I do, it happens myself many a time.

Mr. O'Donnell

Be it far from me. I am referring to an individual merely for the purpose of holding him up as an example. That man remained with us for a good many years.

Mr. Geoghegan

He is still with you, I understand.

Mr. O'Donnell

Unfortunately, we sent him down to a lesser Gaeltacht.

Mr. Geoghegan

I beg to differ with the Deputy.

Mr. O'Donnell

While he was with us he understood the family life of every household in the parish, town-land or locality. I am not going to pass any unfavourable comments on his successor. It would be very unfair but I do say that his successor came to us at a very wrong time. I am certain he is a very excellent official. I do not want to pass any comments on that, but he came to us a very short time before the Donegal County Council decided to suspend the County Council supplementary grants. When he went to visit applicants, possibly on account of lack of knowledge of the northern dialect and his lack of knowledge of family life in Donegal, he did a thing which I can never understand. He postponed his decisions on their applications for a period of six months. He said "I will come back at the end of six months and see if your Irish has improved."

No Deputy, barnacled old warriors like you and me, will learn Irish in six months. I am sorry the Parliamentary Secretary is not here to know that I do not mean that in any personal way. We have either got Irish where Irish is spoken in our households, but we do not pick it up in six months. He postponed his decisions on these cases for six months. I do not mind that so much, but what has happened is that they have now lost their supplementary grants because the Donegal County Council closed down on them on 31st March and supplementary grants are no longer available. That is a serious matter for these unfortunate people living in the Gaeltacht. That minor official was merely covering his Minister by back-pedalling——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister is responsible for the Department, and the officials may not be discussed.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am putting the blame on top of the Minister. I am accusing the Minister, through that minor official, of back-pedalling and leaving these unfortunate applicants for Gaeltacht housing grants or Gaeltacht housing repair grants in this way. Deputy Geoghegan knows it as well as I do.

Mr. Geoghegan

I can assure the Deputy that that has been the case in my own constituency for quite a number of years, where applicants have been put back for 12 months.

Mr. O'Donnell

Is it not time we established a Ministry for the Gaeltacht? After 22 years of Fianna Fáil, to think that we postpone the application of some poor unfortunate applicant for a Gaeltacht grant to see if he will acquire sufficient knowledge of Irish in six months.

My interpretation of the Act is this, that Irish must be the spoken language of the family. Irish will not become the spoken language of the household in six months. If it did, we would all be doing very well and we would have an Irish-speaking State in a very short time. I complain to the Minister that, through some of his officials—I know he takes the responsibility for it and I do not want to blame them personally for it—they have done more damage to unfortunate applicants for Gaeltacht housing grants in Donegal than one could imagine. When an applicant is refused the Gaeltacht housing grant, he may then apply for a Local Government grant, but unfortunately at that stage the Donegal County Council—and I am speaking for the greatest Gaeltacht in this country——

Mr. Coogan

Barring Galway.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am giving you the facts now. The Minister will agree with me——

Mr. Geoghegan

You will agree that Galway is the biggest Gaeltacht.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Galway Deputies allow Deputy O'Donnell to speak?

Mr. O'Donnell

Is it not near time, A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that Donegal got some say in this?

Mr. Lindsay

I am sure the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will not disagree with that.

Mr. O'Donnell

He will not, because Deputy Breslin and I represent the largest Gaeltacht in the country, and that includes Mayo.

Mr. Geoghegan

The second largest.

Mr. O'Donnell

The position is that we represent—in case someone disputes it—one of the largest Gaeltachta. We find this poor unfortunate applicant who applies for a Gaeltacht housing grant having to go back and apply for a local government grant but owing to the lateness of his application, being excluded from the supplementary housing grant. Everyone knows that the £300, or whatever the maximum grant is, is supplemented by an equal amount from the local authority and it makes a very serious and large contribution towards the building of the house. When they lose that local authority supplementary housing grant, it is very serious for them and I do not know any way whatever at the moment of assisting them. I would like the Minister to look into it now and request the local authorities to review these cases. I do not think it would be fair for me, because I have great respect for the Civil Service, to say they are inefficient, or that this occurred through the inefficiency of a civil servant, but it occurred through the inexperience, if I may use that expression, of a civil servant, a new official, turning them down. Those particular cases should be reviewed and I would like to see them reviewed. They are on record and he knows them.

There is only one other complaint I have to make against the Minister on his Estimate. The Minister is a gentleman we like very much, but unfortunately we do not see him often enough in Donegal. I do not know whether it is that he fights shy of our dialect or that he does not like our county. We would like to see him more often. I can assure him that when he does come there will be no person who will give him a more hearty welcome than myself.

Mr. Geoghegan

The Deputy is in Dublin when he is in Donegal.

Mr. O'Donnell

I am afraid I am ag éirigh bodhair. Níor chuala mé an Teachta. There is no one we would like more to see coming and inquiring about the people in the Gaeltacht, coming around and meeting them and asking them what might be done. The módh-díreach is the best method in this country, be it for teaching Irish or for inquiring into the requirements of the Gaeltacht. I understand the Minister recently visited one of the most northerly outposts in our county, namely, Tory Island. There are equally important Gaeltachts in our area, possibly not from the political point of view but from the Irish-speaking point of view. We would welcome the Minister in Rannafast or even in Gweedore, Gortahork or any of those other places. It is only by coming up there and short-circuiting the usual Civil Service methods that he will find out what our needs are.

If I might say so, he might consult both Gael Linn and Comhaltas Uladh, who are doing so much for the spoken Irish language. I do not mean to say anything against the present Minister in that respect. I am referring to his predecessors and the predecessors of his Ministry. Those two bodies are doing much more work for the spoken language than all the moneys voted by this House since 1922. In 1927, I think a Commission was set up to inquire into the Gaeltacht. We had then a very large Gaeltacht. It is dwindling fast. It could be saved. We can only rock the cradle of the Irish language in one place, we can rock it in the Gaeltacht and the sooner the Minister and his officials and this House realise that that is the place it can be rocked, the better. If we do not, we will have Irish as we know it as well known in Ireland as Latin is today. That is not what we want. We want Irish the spoken language. We do not want it the written or the reading language of our unfortunates who have to leave the country.

Incidentally, may I tell the House a very interesting story. I know a family where the head of the family was a school teacher in the heart of the Cloughaneely Gaeltacht. In his household nothing has been spoken to his children but Irish. They have been taught through the medium of Irish. Unfortunately, three of them are compelled now to emigrate. One of them is in employment in London and the other is in Birmingham. I asked this gentleman quite recently whether they wrote often and he said they did, that they wrote every week. I was very glad to hear that. I said: "Have they ever spoken a word of English in your household?" and he said: "No." I said: "Do they write to you in Irish?" He said: "No, they write in English all the time." Does that not give us food for thought? Does that not suggest that our method of trying to revive the Irish language is completely wrong?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid that matter is one for the Minister for Education and not for this Minister.

Mr. O'Donnell

I quite agree and certainly would not dispute what you say in that regard. There is one primary consideration, and let us not allow technicalities or trivialities to enter into it. The Minister is concerned with the revival of the spoken language, and, if we say something here in discussing that particular matter and if we encroach on some other Department, then I know that the House will forgive us in our desire to revive that ancient, traditional language of our own.

Mr. T. Lynch

I will not delay the House very long. I notice that my colleague, Deputy O'Donnell, can say that he loves the language and that he can speak the language, and other Deputies speak of "the language that we all love"—but just like himself they do not speak the language. If they loved it as much as they protest they do, they would be speaking it.

That is what I think is the matter. Deputy O'Donnell kept using the phrase "the unfortunate people living in the Gaeltacht." After looking through the Minister's statement I think it is the people living outside the Gaeltacht who are the unfortunate people.

Mr. Geoghegan

I thought the Deputy said he did not know Irish.

Mr. T. Lynch

There is the copy of the Minister's speech in English. I daresay I could make a fair crack at picking up this Irish copy and reading it. Maybe a lot of people would think I have good Irish and know it fluently. We are voting £291,700 for salaries and expenses in connection with Roinn na Gaeltachta, including housing grants and sundry grants-in-aid. In order to preserve the Gaeltacht areas, we are subsidising industries there. We are to give swimming pools, playing fields——

Mr. Coogan

It is an election promise.

Mr. T. Lynch

They usually get them in the long run. We are to give them sows, water supply schemes, tomato houses, schemes to assist secondary education in Gaeltacht areas, and so on. I notice also that any speaker who mentioned Gaeltacht areas spoke about the Kerry, Galway and Donegal Gaeltachts and Gaeltachts everywhere else but nobody mentioned the Gaeltachts in my constituency. I think that that has got itself down even into the Department of the Gaeltacht because at all times, whether it was the giving out of boats or the giving out of grants, we were forgotten.

Mr. Cunningham

You did not keep shouting.

Mr. T. Lynch

When I first came into this House I kept shouting that 80 boats were given out and that we got one boat, the Ardmore. I think we should frame her. This has been going on for a good length of time.

I want to put this question to the Minister. Is any Gaeltacht area expanding—the area itself or the population of Irish-speaking people? I heard Deputy Lindsay say last week, on the subject of chalets for Gaeltacht areas, that Achill was a Gaeltacht areas. I understand that in 1925, 85 to 90 per cent. of the people of Achill were Irish speakers but that today they are practically wiped out.

We must ask ourselves if, by providing these moneys, giving these grants and doing all these things for the people in the Gaeltacht, we are helping to keep the Gaeltacht going. It looks as if everybody in the Gaeltacht should be supplicants to the Dáil or to a Department or to its inspectors to give handouts to them. They are just told: "If you speak Irish you qualify for all these things but if you do not speak it you will not qualify. If we consider that you are not speaking it we will go away and will come back in six or 12 months' time." They do not say it but the inference is that they will go away in order to give the person a chance of studying the language. As Deputy O'Donnell said, either they have the language or they have not.

We should ask ourselves if the Irish people as a whole or even the people in the Gaeltacht want to preserve the Irish language.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not see how that matter can be discussed on this Estimate.

Mr. T. Lynch

That is what we are providing £291,700 for.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of the language per se does not arise on the Estimate. It could be discussed more relevantly on the Vote for the Department of Education.

Mr. T. Lynch

A Gaeltacht area is an area in which the Irish language is spoken. If the people there speak the language they qualify for a cut out of this £291,700. By providing this money and these handouts, are we helping the language? Do the people want us to help the language? Do the people care? If the people cared for and loved the language, they would not need anything like that.

A great deal of these areas which we call Gaeltacht areas now were isolated up to about 25 or 30 years ago. They were more isolated than any other areas in the country. Since then transport has improved. It is easier to get jobs in England. A lot of young people there who grew up speaking Irish and who would have remained there speaking Irish saw that those who migrated from the Gaeltacht obtained a higher standard of living. They saw that the people who remained in the Gaeltacht had to live at a much lower standard of living than those who left it. That is one of the Minister's difficulties. I cannot see that the provision of these moneys, sows, greenhouses, and so on, will keep the people in those areas.

During the year, I intend to ask the Minister a Parliamentary Question as to how much money was spent on the Gaeltacht area of Ring in my constituency. I shall ask how much the people there got by way of grants for reconstruction or for boats or for anything else mentioned in the Minister's statement.

With regard to boats, the Dáil was informed last year that five large boats costing approximately £12,000 each were provided and that recently four smaller boats costing approximately £800 each had been given out and that further issues of the smaller boats will be made this year. Did any of these boats come to the constituency of Waterford?

Mr. Moran

One large one did.

Mr. T. Lynch

What was her name?

Mr. Moran

The Ardmore.

Mr. T. Lynch

I had something to say about the Ardmore. I made representations to Deputy Dillon. The Ardmore was going somewhere else. This is a matter of record. Two men were sent from Helvic to Galway and succeeded in convincing the Department that they would be able to navigate such a boat. The Ardmore was sent to Helvic. That was before this year or last year. The Ardmore is a museum piece down there because she is the only one they ever saw. Are we likely to get any more of these boats? I knew about that one and had something to do with it. I do not say I got the boat but only I kept protesting here the boat would not have gone and I think the Minister's predecessors and his officers in the Department will bear me out in that.

If some of the £291,700 which is provided for all these plans were diverted into the funds of Gael Linn and other such organisations, they would do more to make Irish a living language. It is not right either for my colleagues or for people on the other side to be talking about the people of the Gaeltacht as if they were poor unfortunate applicants and supplicants for these handouts. The people outside the Gaeltacht, who speak the language of the foreigner, as it is called, who earn the £1 of the foreigner have to carry on to the best of their ability rearing their children without any of the help or handouts that are given to the people who are lucky enough to be born in areas where the Irish language is spoken.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Mícheál Ó Móráin)

Cheap mé ar dtúis nach mbeadh suim ag éinne sa Mheastachán seo ach tháinig athrú ar an scéal le tamall beag. Deallraíonn sé go raibh an Teachta Ó Bláthmhaic in a choladh ar feadh cúpla bliain anuas. Ní raibh aon eolas aige ar na scéimeanna nua a tháinig isteach chun socair mhuintir na Gaeltachta ón am a d'fhág seisean an sean-Rialtas. Níor chuala sé riamh fé scéim na dtrátaí scéarchais, an gháis, scéim na saoráidí séarchais, scéim na bleibíní, scéim na muc agus na scéimeanna éagsúla eile a bunaíodh le cúple bliain ó tháinig athrú ar Roinna na Gaeltachta. Deallraíonn sé freisin nár chuala sé trácht ar na tógraí atá ar siúl againn fé thithe, fé scéim cuartaíochta atá á gcur ar siúl sa Ghaeltacht.

Bhí gearán ag an dTeachta Mac Cuinneagáin fé dhíol bréidín a bhí ar siúl ag an Bhord nua Ghaeltarra Éireann. Níl mise freagarach as polasaí an Bhoird sin ach tá fhios agam go raibh ualach mór den tseanbhréidín ansin nuair tháinig an Bord nua isteach, go raibh an bréidín as dáta agus go raibh orthu rud éigint a dhéanamh leis an stuif sin chun na stóranna a ghlanadh.

Tá suim ag an Teachta Ó Maoldhomhnaigh ó Chiarraighe i nGaeltacht Chiarraí agus ní nach íonadh. Is dócha go bhfuil suim ag gach Teachta ina cheanntair féin. Go nuige seo, bunaíodh cúpla scéim nua i nGaeltacht Chiarraí agus fuaireadar cabhair mhór ón Roinn, fé scéimeanna uisce a chur ar fáil; agus sé mo thuairim go raibh scéim tithe agus scéim reigiúnach ar siúl acu freisin sa Gaeltacht sin. Rinneadar go han-mhaith fé Chomhairle chontae Chiarraí leis na scéimeanna seo. Caithfimid bheith ag braith ar chomh-oibriú ón gcomhairle chontae agus caithfidh na tógraí teacht ón gcomhairle choníae. Ní féidir leis an Roinn obair mar sin a dhéanamh. Níl na teicneoirí againn agus táimid ag braith ar tógraí ón gcomhairle chontae. Nuair a bheidh na tógraí sin againn beimid sásta an chabhair is féidir linn a thabhairt maidir le deontas chun an cuspóir atá ag an Roinn a chur chun chinn.

Tá suim fé leith na cómhairlí éagsúla i láthair na huaire ins na scéimeanna nua seo, go mór mhór ins na scéimeanna uisce reigiúnacha, scéimeanna le haghaidh saoráidí séarachais a bunaíodh; agus tá súil agam go mbeidh na scéimeanna sin ag dul ar aghaidh go láidir as seo amach, toisc go bhfuil eolas acu ar na deontaisí atá le fáil ón Roinn.

Deputy O'Donnell had a complaint about some official of my Department who he suggests, through inexperience or for some other reason, was too particular with the applicants in the area with which he is familiar. The gravamen of his complaint was that this inspector postponed his decision in some cases because he was not satisfied with the knowledge of Irish possessed by the applicant concerned. I am advised that this very same practice has been the rule, not alone in this Department but in the section covering the Gaeltacht areas that went before it, since 1934, that this practice has always been there and, indeed, from my own experience I can say I have seen files since I came into Roinn na Gaeltachta from which it appears that this practice is followed in every Gaeltacht.

I feel that the inspectors concerned would be most anxious to give the grants forthwith if they were satisfied that the applicant was entitled to get the grants. Indeed, the inspector who refuses an applicant because of his knowledge of Irish and puts him back six months to see if he will improve his knowledge is putting much more trouble on himself from his own personal point of view. I cannot understand the suggestion made by Deputy O'Donnell that this was some innovation that was introduced by me. In fact, it would appear that this has been the practice since 1934 and the practice that has been enforced both by this Department and that section of the Department of Lands which dealt with the Gaeltacht before Roinn na Gaeltachta was established.

I think it is correct to say that the House in general—and the last Deputy who spoke—would not be satisfied to vote money for the people in the Gaeltacht unless for the particular purpose of preserving the Gaeltacht as a living Gaeltacht. There would be no point at all if the Department were to dish out grants indiscriminately within Limistéirí na Gaeltachta to people who not alone did not have the language but were not sufficiently interested in it although their neighbours use Irish as their everyday speech. There is largely no justification for giving special treatment to the Gaeltacht unless it is carefully provided that the officials of the Department will only give these benefits to people who are prepared to speak the language and promote the language in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht. I cannot visualise any quicker way of destroying the Fíor-Ghaeltacht that are left than to give the benefit of these schemes to people who are not sufficiently interested in the language and in speaking it to qualify for them.

As far as the housing grants are concerned, I assume that in the Gaeltacht areas they qualify for supplementary grants under the different county councils. I regret to hear from Deputy O'Donnell that Donegal county council evidently have decided to discontinue these supplementary grants. At all events, the people who may have been recently concerned will be entitled to get the benefit of the much-increased grants under the new housing proposals which have just passed through this House and the provisions of that Act go back to the time when the new Local Government Housing Act was passed. If Donegal county council have decided in their wisdom or otherwise to cut out supplementary grants that is, of course, a matter entirely for themselves. I assume their decision will affect not alone people in the Donegal Gaeltacht but the people as a whole in that county.

With regard to the administration of Scéim na gCúig bPúnt, it would appear that Deputy O'Donnell is also dissatisfied with the way in which it is administered and, I assume, with the cases that have been turned down by the Department on the grounds that Irish was not the spoken language of the home. That is the law as it stands and until Dáil Éireann decides in its wisdom or otherwise to change that law that is the way Scéim na gCúig bPúnt must be administered.

Again, I am satisfied from my experience of the scheme that it was made clear to the parents of a household that unless the children have that líofacht and unless Irish was the language in the home they would not qualify for Scéim na gCúig bPúnt. I think that this scheme more than any other scheme, possibly, has, as far as the language is concerned, succeeded in keeping the language alive in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and kept it the spoken language in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht.

Mr. Coogan

Does the Minister agree that there should be deprivation where the children, through shyness or fear of an inspector, were unable to speak?

Mr. Moran

As Deputy O'Donnell pointed out, the examination of the children is conducted by the inspectors under the Department of Education, but I have heard the allegation made by the Deputy voiced before. In some cases reputable people alleged to me that this was the reason why children did not appear to be as competent as they were, that in fact it was due to shyness with the inspector. But in the few cases that came before me—I am speaking from memory; I think there were only four or five of them in the whole country—I permitted separate examinations to be carried out by different inspectors. I asked that that should be done. I discovered that, with one sole exception, the different inspectors came to the same conclusion. The children concerned did not have the same líofacht that would qualify them for Scéim na gCúig bPúnt. Considering that there is a very considerable number of children involved—I think something about 10,000 in the whole country—I think that due to the very few complaints that come before me in regard to allegations of this kind there is not very much to it. I think that in general this scheme is working very well. It is only in a very odd case that parents claim for one reason or another that they were wrongfully refused the grant. In every such case, since I came into Roinn na Gaeltachta, where there is such a complaint I have made myself personally satisfied about it.

Mr. Coogan

Is the Minister satisfied that the inspector does not speak English when going to the home to try and catch them out? Has that happened?

Mr. Moran

Not to my knowledge.

Mr. Coogan

Will the Minister issue instructions to see that it will not happen?

Mr. Moran

Again, might I point out to the Deputy that I am not responsible for the inspectors who actually do these inspections? They are inspectors under the Department of Education. My Department gets a Report from them and when we are satisfied from the report we pay the grants.

Mr. Coogan

Does the Minister say he is satisfied that the inspector should not address them in English?

Mr. Moran

I find it difficult to accept that that, in fact, has happened. It is the first time that I heard that allegation made as regards the administration of Scéim na gCúig bPúnt. The duty of the inspector is to see that Irish is the spoken language of the home and of the children and see if the children have that natural knowledge of Irish which they would have if Irish was the spoken language in the home. I am quite sure that they conscientiously carry out that to the best of their ability.

Mr. Coogan

Does the fact that so many tourists visit the area affect the issue?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a second speech.

Mr. Coogan

Could the Minister clarify the position?

Mr. T. Lynch

The position is clear enough. The children will speak Irish to any stranger they see lest he might be an inspector.

Mr. Moran

It is not a question of children speaking Irish or English to tourists. It is a question of what the children speak when they are examined by an inspector for the purposes of Scéim na gCúig bPúnt. I do not see what the tourists say to children or what the children say to tourists has got to do with the scheme at all.

Mr. Coogan

I think the Minister misunderstands me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not continue this series of interruptions. The Deputy contributed to the debate and should have made these points.

Mr. Coogan

I did but the Minister is not clear on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

To interrupt the Minister is not a way to make him clear on anything.

Mr. Moran

I do not know if there were any matters raised in connection with the administration of the Department over the past year other than those I have dealt with.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would the Minister, at a future date, let me know what was spent in my constituency?

Mr. Moran

I can assure the Deputy that his constituency got very substantial grants in respect of some of the schemes under my Department since I became Minister. One that comes to mind is a very substantial grant for a very large regional water supply in the Ring Gaeltacht.

Mr. T. Lynch

That is old stuff.

Mr. Moran

That is only one of the matters under which the Deputy's constituency has benefited.

Mr. T. Lynch

With all due respect to the Minister, I was there three years ago and that scheme was afoot. I was in the famous Coady's public-house and the proprietress would not have the water in.

Mr. Moran

Whether the proprietress had the water in or not, the fact remains that the scheme would never have gone ahead but for the help it got by way of a very substantial grant under my Department. Indeed, some further extensions were made to it in the Ring Gaeltacht as a result of the examination of the position there by my officials.

Mr. T. Lynch

About how much would the figure be, please? What would the substantial grant be, roughly?

Mr. Moran

Again, the Deputy can put down a question. My recollection is that it was something around £5,000 or more. I cannot recollect all the grants that have been given but I know it was quite a substantial grant for a regional water supply in that area.

Mr. T. Lynch

£75,000?

Mr. Moran

I do not know how far the Deputy's county council has availed of the other schemes. As I have already pointed out, my Department have to depend on the county councils as far as either small water schemes or regional schemes are concerned. I have pointed out to the House the new road schemes that were made available under my Department to deal with accommodation roads and, in so far as the Office of Public Works is able to carry out these jobs for us, good progress is being made with them in the various areas. With all schemes of that kind we have to operate through the Office of Public Works of the county council or, in the case of other schemes that have been introduced, through the County Committees of Agriculture. I want to say generally, and to put it on the records of the House, that the County Committees of Agriculture have been tremendously helpful to my Department in going ahead with any schemes that we have suggested to them and that the county councils have given us very good help also.

In the case of county councils, I should like to see them making more progress, in the areas of the Gaeltacht particularly, with water and sewerage schemes that will fit in with the main provisions for tourism that we are now introducing for the benefit of the Gaeltacht areas.

I do not know that it is necessary for me to deal with any of the other matters that were raised. On the suggestion of Deputy Lynch, that we should pity the people outside the Gaeltacht areas and not those inside it, I would emphasise, and not for the first time, that the Gaeltacht areas comprise the poorest and the most backward portions of the country and the people in these areas, where they have rock, bog and water, instead of the very good land that some of their more fortunate neighbours have, outside the Gaeltacht, need the special provisions that are being made for them under Roinn na Gaeltachta. They were provided for very poorly by nature there. Some of the Gaeltacht areas comprise the greatest land slums in the country.

Apart from the fact that the Gaeltacht areas are the last parts of the country in which the Irish language survives as a living, spoken language, the everyday language of the people, it is true to say that they could not, in these days at all events, survive on the small holdings that generally are there and the poor land that generally is there unless they got special help in one form or another from the rest of the community. I think some of the provisions that are now being made will have a very healthy effect on their economy and I am glad to say that there is at least one Gaeltacht, and a very large Gaeltacht, that is as strong as, in my view, it ever was. From the figures I can see there is barely a difference in population of 5 per cent. between the people who are there now and the number that were there in 1911. I refer to the Connemara Gaeltacht.

So, to those people who say that everybody is gone from the Gaeltacht, I want to point out one area of which that is not true. There has been, undoubtedly, the movement of people from the Gaeltacht, just as there has been from every other part of rural Ireland but, on the face of the situation, it would appear that, due to the extraordinary poverty of the land and the extraordinary handicaps under which these people worked, most of them would have gone long ago. That, I am glad to say, is not true and, certainly, as far as that Gaeltacht is concerned, it is as strong and as healthy in every way as it has been for many years. I hope the same picture will ultimately appear in all the Gaeltacht areas that are under Limistéirí na Gaeltachta.

Mr. T. Lynch

Surely not from the point of view of population.

Vote put and agreed to.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.