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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 1959

Vol. 176 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1959—Committee Stage.

Question proposed: That Section 1 stand part of the Bill.

There are just two points that I should like to raise on Section 1. The first point arises out of the reduction of the standard rate of income tax from 7/6 to 7/- and 6/- to 5/6, and so on. I think one of the effects of that reduction has been quite unintentional. I refer to the position arising in regard to marginal relief in respect of the relief granted to old people. As the House knows, there is a provision whereby persons over 65 years of age who have an income which consists, in the main, of unearned income are granted a relief which is equivalent to earned income relief on the income and it seems to me that, with the reduction in the standard rate, persons who previously qualified for this relief will be unfairly treated. If the income of such persons is £600 or less than £600, the position is all right, but if it goes over £600, their position under the marginal relief provisions is adversely affected, as I see it.

Take the case of a single person with £800 a year unearned income. Prior to the Budget, in 1958/59, the age relief available to that person was £31 5s. Subsequent to the Budget, when these provisions are effectual, the age relief available will be only £22 10s. As I said, that arises directly from the reduction in the standard rate and I imagine that it is quite unintentional that it should be so. For instance, to give a concrete case, a single person with unearned income of £800 a year, in 1958/59, without age relief, paid £213 15s. tax and, with age relief, paid £182 10s. tax—in other words, a reduction of £31 5s. as between a person getting age relief and a person not getting it, in 1958/59. In 1959/60, if nothing were done, the same person, without age relief, would pay £198 15s. and, with age relief, would pay £176 5s., so that the reduction in 1959/60 will not be as great as it was in 1958/59. That applies to all the range of income over £600 a year for this type of person.

In addition, the marginal relief in 1958/59 expired, for a single person, at £1,050 and now at £950; for married persons, at £1,040 and now at £1,020. Therefore, I should be grateful if the Minister would indicate if anything can be done about that.

This question of marginal relief has been under consideration. The Deputy, of course, has a better grip of it than I have. I think he is right in saying that up to about £600 the position is fairly all right. There does appear to be some doubt about the position above that but it is being examined. All I can promise the Deputy is that we shall examine it further and see if there is any hardship inflicted on these people and, if there is, we can make it right at another time.

I am grateful to the Minister for that assurance. There is just one further point on Section 1 that I should like to raise. The income which a child may have in respect of qualifying for the child allowance is still restricted to £60. I think that is too low. I should like the Minister favourably to consider increasing that income limit. It has been pointed out to me that the following situation arises: In the case of a number of employers in the city and the country generally who have pension schemes, where the person employed dies, the company will, as a rule, make a pension available to the widow and fairly often will make a sum available to the child. The £60 income limit is just too low and in many of these pension schemes the fact that the limit is £60 takes the child out of the child allowance category. The pension schemes, as a general rule, will pay to the child anything from £60 to £100. Certainly, it is in very rare cases that the payment to the child from the pensions fund would be less than £60. Therefore, the income tax code at present works very unfairly in those cases. There are other cases also in which the same thing applies. I think the Minister might favourably consider increasing that income limit from £60 to £100—in other words, to the same level as the child allowance.

I do not think we have got any complaint—at least no complaint has reached me—on this issue. I should not imagine that there would be many pension schemes where a child would get more than £60 a year. It is a matter, of course, that we can look into.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

I cannot understand why, as a matter of drafting, there is the entire repetition in subsection (1) of Section 2 of all the rates already included in subsection (3) of Section 1. Surely that is adding to the verbosity of the Bill in an entirely unnecessary way? If it is necessary to have the main part of subsection (3) of Section 1 and the main part of subsection (1) of Section 2 as separate main parts, would it not be better that the rates would be put down in the one schedule, rather than twice? It will mean that people will have to do what I had to do, namely, to check each rate so as to make quite sure it is the same in both places.

Section 1 applies to income tax and surtax arising in the year 1959-60. However, the surtax arising out of the year 1958-59 is payable during this year. Section 2 specifically deals with that year—to give the relief for that year. In other words, what is payable in respect of the year 1958-59 would be payable in 1959-60.

But the whole of subsection (3) of Section 1, except the first four lines, is the same as subsection (1) of Section 2, except the first 10 lines. It is an exact copy.

Perhaps it is the drafting.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

This introduces the principle of the allowance that had been granted against surtax. Section 18 of the Finance Act of 1920 deals with the personal allowance as it was fixed in 1920. Section 19 deals with relatives who take charge of a widow with children. Section 20 deals with the dependent relative allowance for the widowed mother. Section 21 is in respect of the allowance for children, and Section 22 is in respect of the allowance for other children. I have not got handy the exact reference to subsection (2) of Section 2 of the Finance Act of 1954.

It deals with widows.

Is it quite clear, in the way it is drafted, that it is the provisions of the 1920 Act, as amended, that are allowed and not the original provisions of the 1920 Act? I know that that is intended but is it clear that that is what is drafted and, if so, where? Have I made myself clear to the Minister?

I think so. I want to refer to amendment No. 15. I think it covers the point the Deputy has just mentioned—whether we are dealing with the 1920 Act as amended or not.

Yes, you are doing it in a general way there. I follow. I must confess that I read this Bill before the Minister circulated his amendments and I was away since then.

I should like some information in relation to subsection (3) of this Section 3. The last paragraph reads:—

"but so that, if the amount by which the income of either falls to be reduced under subparagraphs (i) and (ii) of this paragraph exceeds the amount of that income, the income of the other shall be treated as reduced by the amount of the excess.”

No doubt that is very clear.

It could mean one of two things:

To me, at any rate. Possibly it may mean other things to other people. It says "if the amount by which the income of either falls to be reduced...." Does that mean that if the income of either the husband or the wife is below £2,000 the balance would be available for the husband or the wife, as the case might be, or does it mean that only if the allowance brought the income down to nil the balance would be available to the husband or the wife? I think it is important.

I do not know exactly what the Deputy is asking.

This is a case of separate assessments for surtax purposes. I have in mind a case where the personal allowance is divided between them. This provides that if the allowance when made available to one of the parties reduces the income to a certain level the balance shall be available to the other party. For instance, the wife could have £2,200. Her share of the allowance is £300. That would reduce her income to £1,900 and therefore she would not be liable for surtax. In that case would the £100—in other words, the amount under £2,000—be available to the husband or is it only if the allowances bring the wife's income to nil that the balance would be available to the husband?

This part of the Bill deals with the case where the husband and wife want separate assessment. If there is a child to be maintained, then whoever maintains the child gets credit for that. The section goes on to say that, apart from that, the total must be brought in and that by whatever amount the income of one is reduced the other goes up, and vice versa.

That still does not deal with my difficulty. The last paragraph deals with a case where the share of the allowance either of the husband or the wife is not fully used up. Does it refer to that share not being fully used up in reducing the income to £2,000 or in reducing the income to nil?

Allowances?

As far as allowances go, if one person is not able to absorb the allowance then it is passed on to the other person.

Is it the income or the income over £2,000?

The total income.

If that is the interpretation, I think it is unfair because it means an allowance will be lost. Take the case of a husband and wife where the total personal allowance divisible between them comes to £600. According to subsection (3), paragraph (ii), which provides:—

subject to the foregoing subparagraph, the deduction shall be treated as reducing their respective incomes rateably,

I take it that their divisible rate would be divided equally between them. If the total allowance is £600 it means that the wife's share is £300. If she has an income of £2,200 the entire £300 would be allocated to her income and would reduce it to £1,900. Therefore, £100 of that £300 would not be necessary because when she goes down to £2,000 she is not liable to surtax. Therefore, you are wasting some of the personal allowance.

Surely the situation is, where they have separate assessments, that you take the total of both their incomes in deciding whether they are liable to sur-tax and on to what sur-tax rate they go. If you have, as Deputy Haughey says, a husband and wife entitled to £600 allowances and the husband has £2,200 and the wife has £2,200 income, and they decide they want separate assessments, they each get £300 allowance because their incomes are even. It brings each of them down to £1,900 but it does not make each of them exempt from sur-tax. They are still assessable to sur-tax on the basis that their income is £3,800, and that £3,800 is divided between them.

On the other hand suppose you have a case where the husband had £4,400 and the wife had £2,600 and again £600 in allowances. They are assessable on an income, for sur-tax purposes, of £6,600 less £600 which is £6,000 and that is divisible between them in the ratio of £4,400 less £400 for the husband, which is £4,000, and for the wife £2,200 less a third of the allowances because she has a third of the joint income. I do not think you can possibly lose allowances nor do I think you can go below sur-tax assessment level because you are asking for a separate assessment. It seems to me to be a question of calculating the proportions.

As long as I have an assurance that none of the personal allowances will be wasted, that is all I am interested in.

They will not be wasted. They will be allowed fully.

I think my understanding is correct.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Does Section 4 apply to an adopted child ?

It does.

What happens if a person is apprenticed as a solicitor when he is, say, 17? His apprenticeship would not be up until he was 22 and he would not be earning until then. In the last year when he is 21 is he still a child, or is he an adult apprentice, and does he get the benefit in that year as an apprentice over 21 and not earning?

As the Deputy is aware, while he is at the university he will still be a child as far as that is concerned.

Until he is 23?

Until he finishes his education. He could be 33.

What about the adopted child?

The adopted child is included.

I did think it would be advisable to tie in Section 4 in some way with the forthcoming Apprenticeship Bill. I see quite a lot of difficulty arising over the interpretation of the phrase: "in such circumstances that the child is required to devote the whole of his time to the training for a period of not less than two years." Admittedly there would be some difficulty in tying it in with a measure that has not been passed but when the Apprenticeship Bill is passed I would recommend to the Minister that he might consider revising the Section because that measure will give him a readymade means of deciding who is an apprentice and who is not.

If the child is earning he cannot benefit by this Section and I imagine that would settle the question.

Earning more than £60?

Up to the limit of £60.

Is the £60 a net earning figure or a gross one? If, for example, the apprentice is being paid £50 plus travelling expenses to enable him to go around the country as an apprenticed accountant, is that taken into account?

I do not think travelling expenses are taken into account.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That Section 5 stand part of the Bill".

What are the natural sciences ?

Anything except the humanities, as far as I know. That was put in to include mathematics.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That Section 6 stand part of the Bill".

Can the Minister tell me whether in relation to subsection (2) (b), page 8, there is any appeal from the decision of the Special Commissioners? Clause (b) reads:—

"that time exceeded one month and it is shown to the satisfaction of the Special Commissioners that the purchase and sale were each effected at the current market price, and that the sale was not effected in pursuance of an agreement..."

Is there any appeal in the ordinary way to the circuit court judge on that? As I understand this subsection, it is the one that covers the exemption of purchases and sales where the security is held between a month and six months and it is necessary to show that the transaction is bona fide at arm's length. There is no appeal as far as I can see in this Section. Does the appeal come under the general Tax Acts?

There is no appeal beyond the Special Commissioners, except on a point of law.

Is that not undesirable? Surely there should be an appeal to the circuit court judge? I would agree at once with the Minister that there should not be an appeal beyond the circuit court except on a point of law but on a point of fact there should, on general principles, always be an appeal to the circuit court in these cases.

I could consider that. It is a question of simple fact and I am afraid there is really nothing on which to appeal in the circuit court.

If the Minister would travel to the Explanatory Memorandum—and incidentally one might say this memorandum is extremely helpful in relation to this Bill—he will see the explanation at the top of page 2 says:—

"...apply to securities purchased after the 22nd April, 1959 (the date of the Financial Resolution relating to bond washing)"

That is perfectly proper; there is no element of retrospection in that because the Financial Resolution was announced on that day and passed on that day.

"if the period between purchase and sale does not exceed a month "

—that is fixed and there is no question arising on that—

" or if, though it exceeds one month, it does not exceed six months "

Again there is no possible difficulty there and the transactions are not bona fide arm's length transactions. I can see cases in which there would be some considerable argument on that. I do not think that is the simple fact that should be determined by the Special Commissioners without appeal.

I am quite prepared to consider that on Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That Section 7 stand part of the Bill."

With regard to subsection (2 of Section 7, is it visualised there that the Revenue Commissioners shall give a certificate to certain people that they regard as carrying on the business of discount houses, or is it that they will look into each individual transaction of a discount house, or is that meant to be a general certificate certifying that X or Y is carrying on business?

It is a general certificate. We must recognise that the ordinary stockbroker buys his shares one day and sells them another. The same applies to discount houses.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part of the Bill."

I understand that the effect of Section 8 is that where a person has an ordinary trading loss, he cannot bring in his trading loss in respect of the purchase and sale of securities. Surely if a person has a trading loss in one business, he is entitled to offset that against any profits he makes in the other?

The object is not to regard this as a legitimate profit for income tax purposes.

No, no. I am not putting it the other way round. I must not have made myself clear. This section is to capture any profit made in these transactions.

A repayment.

It is a repayment that would arise because a profit is made.

I agree. The Deputy is right. It is a loss made in respect of which there is a liability to tax. Surely if there is a loss in the person's other business, he is entitled to set off that loss? I must confess candidly that I am influenced by the second paragraph on page 2 of the Minister's White Paper. We do not want anybody who is engaged in bond washing operations to get any benefit, but if he has purchased securities and sold them, he is, therefore, properly assessable in respect of that transaction. If he has a loss in some other business, I think that should follow the ordinary income tax law, unless the two people concerned are not the same.

This section has nothing to do with loss.

It is very complicated. Would the Minister mind looking at the last three lines of the second paragraph on page 2 of his White Paper: "nor will concerns entitled to claim repayment in respect of an ordinary trading loss be allowed to have such a loss allowed against dividends received through bond washing transactions." As I understand it, the ordinary trading loss has nothing to do with bond washing.

The Deputy is referring to Section 9 there.

Oh, yes; I have jumped it again.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."

I am still in trouble about understanding the matter under Section 9. If a man has a trading loss outside of bond washing, he should be entitled to set off that trading loss wherever it applies.

We are dealing with ordinary traders in Section 9.

I agree that he is an ordinary trader who buys and sells securities. Either you treat that buying and selling as a capital transaction or you treat it as a transaction assessable to income tax. This section makes it assessable to income tax. If it is a transaction which is assessable to income tax, why cannot he set off against it his ordinary trading loss?

Section 9 deals with preventing the ordinary trading loss being set off against the dividends received in the bond washing transaction.

Against the assessable amount.

The dividend receiveable in the bond washing transaction is paid less tax.

Yes, but it is a gross assessment all the same.

What we are really trying to do is to make it impossible for a person to engage in this bond washing business of buying a security cum dividend and selling it afterwards ex dividend and then saying: "I have suffered a loss and I want to recover income tax."

That cannot be allowed.

I agree, but this is not a loss in that transaction. It is a loss in respect of his other trade.

We do not want him to claim income tax from that source for that.

I do not understand enough about the intricacies of bond washing, perhaps.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 10.
Question proposed: "That Section 10 stand part of the Bill."

This deals with the double income tax agreement.

The double agreement deals with stripping only. Is that not so?

Yes, that is right.

There is no other double agreement coming in?

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed : "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I should just like to say that I wish to raise a matter on Report Stage but I would prefer to mention it to the Minister before doing so. It might not be desirable to raise it in public first.

Very good.

Can the Minister give us some information in respect of general taxation on tobacco? On the Second Stage, I mentioned that it was a highly unhealthy situation that roughly 25 per cent. of our total budgetary income comes out of tobacco alone. What has been the trend in relation to tobacco consumption in the past three years? I am not talking of the trend of the tax collected from that, because the tax has varied, nor am I talking of the straight consumption figure because that would not take into account some drop that might be due to an increase in taxes.

Does the Minister anticipate that in the current financial year, shall we say, the tobacco consumption in respect of which he will retain revenue will be up or down or static compared with last year? The difference there could be in respect of tobacco consumption could mean agonising nights for anybody in the position of Minister for Finance. His colleague, the Minister for Health, recently circulated some information which leads one to believe that tobacco consumption may reduce in the future. Certainly it is my experience that if one is in company at present and takes out a packet of cigarettes and offers them around, one finds far more people saying they do not smoke than was the case four or five years ago.

I do not know whether that is just my experience or whether that experience is general, but if that is to be a general experience, and if the experience is to be that according as the existing habitual tobacco smokers die off, there will not be the same number of new people coming in for this habit, to use one word for it, then I think anybody who is Minister for Finance will find himself in queer street. Between £25,000,000 and £26,000,000 approximately is the amount we get in an ordinary year from tobacco at present rates of tax, excluding any question of tax on stocks. Last year, because of the increase in duty, there was a tax on stocks then held.

That is a pretty unpleasant vista in front of the Minister for Finance and I should like to know what is the situation as the Minister visualises it at the moment. I should like also to know what is the amount of tax payable in respect of the packet of 20 cigarettes of the popular brands, Afton, Players, Gold Flake and the rest of them, the ones which are not filter tipped. What is the tax proportion of the amount that is payable in respect of a 20 packet? If the Minister has the information, I should also like to know the tax proportion of the 2/7d. paid in respect of the ordinary filter tipped brands?

I quite agree with the Deputy that tobacco is a very important item, so far as the Exchequer is concerned. We estimated the consumption, if the Deputy looks it up, at practically the same as last year and I am told that for the first three months the estimate was correct. The element of duty on the ordinary 20 Sweet Afton packet, and the other popular brands, is 2/1d. They are retailed at 3/1d. and the duty is 2/1d.

And can the Minister tell me what is the element of duty on the filter tipped, similar brands sold for 2/7d.? I suppose the difference is 6d. Of course there would be some retail margin.

It is proportionately less.

I suppose it works out at the same proportions. When the Minister says he estimated the same as last year, does that mean approximately the same, excluding the amount he got from tax on stocks last year, or including it?

I think the consumption is supposed to be the same.

Is it quite clear that under this Section the Minister is going to get the whole 12 months' tax on tobacco in the current financial year and that there will not be, as a result of this arrangement, a tendency to hold back withdrawals from bond in March of any financial year?

I do not see how they can. What happened before this arrangement was made was that they paid duty when taking the tobacco out of bond.

That is right.

That did not apply to other dutiable articles, at least some of the bigger ones. It was a sort of monthly account. They wanted the same facilities and the only objection I could make was that the Exchequer would be out of its money until they did make that good to us. This twopence halfpenny per lb. is calculated to bring in sufficient to finance something like an average of £2,000,000 the whole year, through the Exchequer standing out of that money. It will finance that to about 4½ per cent.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 12.

I move amendment No. 1:—

Before section 12 to insert the following new section:

"Section 12 of the Finance Act, 1932, is hereby amended by the deletion of ‘and are not obtainable or likely to be obtainable in Saorstát Éireann' and by the insertion of ‘and the said Minister for Finance, after such consultation as aforesaid, so thinks proper,' before ‘the Revenue Commissioners may'."

The description of goods being imported, where a duty free licence can be given, caused some difficulty. The words used, where a duty free licence can be given, are that: "the Minister for Finance, after consultation with the Minister for Industry and Commerce, is satisfied that any articles... are essential to the process of any manufacture ... are not obtainable" in the State, and so on. To give a strict interpretation to the words not a kind obtainable in the State would make it very difficult indeed. For instance, there might be some raw materials being manufactured in this State which were not really sufficient or perhaps not even of the proper quality and therefore this amendment is necessary.

There is also another difficulty. A person could practically demand the raw materials free of duty if they were not available in this country. For example, a tobacco manufacturer, under a strict interpretation of the Act, could demand all the tobacco he needs, free of duty, for the purpose of his manufacture. The amendment is brought in to get over these difficulties and to make for more smooth working in future.

If that demand is correct as an interpretation, surely the amendment does not cover a demand that is made before the passing of the Act?

It is now worded more at the discretion of the Minister concerned than it was. I think that covers the point.

But it does not cover anything between this date and the passing of the Act. The Minister has now given away his view of the law and anybody who wants to slap in a demand can slap it in to-morrow. I shall be most amused if manufacturers do that.

I should like to say that I welcome this improvement in the section because I think it will undoubtedly make for the smoother working of these arrangements. I should also like to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the persons who work this section, both in the Department of Industry and Commerce and in the Revenue Commissioners. I know from practical experience that this is one of the most important provisions in the whole customs code and, were it not there, and were it not for the efficient way it is worked, there would be endless bottlenecks in manufacturing industry and commerce generally. I also know that the operation of the section calls for quick decisions and expert judgment, practically every day of every week, and the officials responsible have always shown that they are prepared to take a sensible view of things and they try to assist and facilitate business people where they can, while at the same time complying, of course, with the overall requirements of the customs code.

I think it is desirable that we should avail of this opportunity to pay a particular tribute to these men who operate this section in very difficult circumstances. In so far as this amendment of the section will make their work easier, or give them greater facilities for helping the commercial community, it is particularly welcome.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2:—

2. To delete subsection (2) and substitute the following subsections:

"(2) On and after the 16th day of April, 1959, entertainments duty shall not be charged or levied on payments for admission to any entertainment which consists solely of one or more greyhound races.

(3) During the period beginning on the 16th day of April, 1959, and ending on the 31st day of July, 1959, entertainments duty shall not be charged or levied on payments for admission to any entertainment which consists solely of an exhibition of the sport of boxing.

(4) On and after the 1st day of August, 1959, entertainments duty shall not be charged or levied on payments for admission to any entertainment which consists solely of an exhibition of any game or sport which is played or contested by two or more persons or by two or more groups of persons."

Amendments No. 14 and 16 are consequential. If the House is agreeable, amendments Nos. 2, 14 and 16 could be debated together.

Yes, Amendment No. 16 comes within this. The effect of this amendment is to exempt all sport. I think that it was back in 1916 that sports were first brought under the law of duty or tax, but gradually, through the years, they have been taken off the list. Under Section 20 of the Finance Act, 1934, all outdoor sports were exempted and most of the indoor sports were exempted from time to time. As that long list in the Schedule under Amendment No. 16 will show they have been taken away piecemeal and very few now remain. All indoor amateur sports are now exempt. With boxing coming out, there are only a few of the professional sports left that would be liable to duty if they should ever be promoted here, and I thought it well to bring in this amendment to remove all sports, both indoor and outdoor, from entertainments duty.

I must say that I welcome the decision to exclude all sports but are we excluding all sports? The amendment refers to games or sports played or contested by two or more persons, but I could think of cases of one man exhibitions such as hammer throwing.

Javelin throwing.

I am glad Deputy Haughey speaks of hammer throwing. No doubt the hammer will go on the head of the Minister for Finance.

It intrigued me to know why two or more persons should be stipulated. What is the significance of the dates? Why go to 31st July for all sports except boxing?

The Financial Resolution was brought in as dating from 16th day of April. It is expected that this Bill will be enacted by 31st July, so it is to cover that interval in the case of boxing and, in the case of greyhound racing, it is gone for all time. On the others, it will be from 31st day of July.

Why is the Minister not exempting all sports when he is at it?

Will the Minister tell me is coursing already exempted?

Yes. This is just the definition of sport that is given—a contest between two persons. The Deputy, perhaps, is not satisfied with that definition of a sport.

I could imagine an athletic club having an exhibition in which two persons would not necessarily be involved. For instance, a crack golfer could give an exhibition.

There would not be any charge, any attendance tax.

If there was an exhibition and a charge was made, it would not be exempt.

Is it not regular enough to have diving exhibitions?

There would be more than one diver.

But they are not contesting.

What objection does the Minister see to deleting the words "which is played or contested by two or more persons or by two or more groups of persons" at the end of subsection 4 of the amendment?

I could not answer the Deputy at the moment. I imagine that when the Revenue Commissioners and the draftsman were trying to get some sort of formula of what is a sport, they put down this definition of sport. We can reconsider this. I think it would be very unlikely that a person would be exhibiting on his own, throwing a hammer or playing a golf ball.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on extending that exemption to all sports. I think it is well worth while, and the concession is long overdue.

Amateur boxers do not agree with Deputy Russell in congratulating the Minister.

That was already exempted.

They do not agree with this exemption. They are quite vociferous about it.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

This section, as amended, now extends the exemption from entertainments tax to professional boxing.

Professional sports.

I do not know if it is an eccentric attitude to take but I should like to distinguish between amateur boxing and professional boxing. I think amateur boxing under suitable control and direction can be a very desirable thing, and if proper precautions are taken—as I believe they can in the sphere of amateur boxing— to see that no injury is done to either party and that no brutality is engaged in, it can be a salutary thing for young persons to learn to defend themselves in that way under a code of rules which imposes self-restraint and control. Like any other game it is a useful voluntary discipline which helps people to meet the trials of life with dignity and Christian fortitude. But I do not think that these encomia can be extended to professional boxing.

Am I eccentric if I say I have not the slightest desire to see professional boxing included in the benefit of tax remission? Do we in this House want to have re-enacted in Dublin the scenes perennially enacted in Madison Square Garden, New York? I have not the slightest desire to extend any inducement to professional boxing. My only contact with professional boxing filled me with nausea and disgust. I remember once going to Madison Square Garden——

As a contender?

No. I must add the declaration that my visit was when Mr. Carnera was champion of the world and I had the distressing experience of meeting Mr. Carnera and, of all people, Jack Johnson. I saw the proceedings there in Madison Square Garden and the annexes thereto, all the goings-on which constitute the background of professional boxing. I want to say with great deliberation that I pity the participants and I detest the promoters, or at least I detest their activities. It seemed to me that they were a crowd of money-grubbing persons who were prepared to purchase into virtual servitude a number of individuals of pretty low mentality who were thrust into the ring, almost always in circumstances reeking of dishonesty and fraud, to undergo appalling punishment very frequently with ultimate disaster for themselves, and that the earnings of these unfortunate men very largely found their way into the pockets of the promoters responsible.

I could not see then, and I cannot see now, any desirable result from the promotion of professional boxing. I believe it is done for an unworthy purpose. I believe its consequences are frequently disastrous to the participants and I believe the only people who derive any benefit from it are those who have a pecuniary interest in promoting the competitions. I am credibly informed that the whole business of professional boxing reeks of corruption and dishonesty and that the atmosphere surrounding it is one very largely—not exclusively but very largely—of revolting sadism. I believe if people take an interest in boxing as a sport they will ordinarily confine themselves to the promotion of, and attendance at, amateur displays where a decent standard of conduct is rigidly enforced and adequate provision is made to ensure that the participants will not suffer irremediable injury.

I think it is commonly stated that to be a successful professional boxer there must be promoted within a man the killer instinct and unless a human being can be sufficiently degraded to be sent into the ring with no other purpose in his mind than to inflict the maximum injury possible on the other man his prospects of becoming a successful professional boxer are remote. Does Deputy Russell seriously desire to see professional boxing promoted in this country?

I do; I like professional boxing.

I would be interested to hear from him what he sees in professional boxing that commends it to him to the point of desiring to exempt it from tax. Does he see in the proceedings such as were witnessed when Mr. London went out to America to serve as a chopping block for another boxer whose name I cannot recall——

Big Ben Bolt.

They brought out one poor individual, Brian London, in order to promote the prospects of another boxer who has since been massacared by a man from Sweden. London was battered into unconsciousness in New York. I think everybody knew the whole proceedings were of very doubtful validity from the point of view of equal contestants competing for the prize. Does Deputy Russell like that or approve of it? Can he believe that the surroundings of professional boxing are above-board, straightforward and honest?

I think that criticism might be levelled at all forms of professional sport. I would not agree with it.

Deputy Russell would say that boxing promoters are upright, pure-souled men?

I would not be in a position to say.

Well, I would. I think most of them are money-grubbing frauds and I believe they are primarily concerned in the promotion of contests of this kind to line their own pockets with as much as they can gain in the shortest possible time and are utterly indifferent to the welfare of those they undertake to promote.

I thought the Deputy was talking about the boxers.

I am, but I am saying that professional boxing is run for the benefit of the promoters. That is my thesis. If Deputy Russell knows better I am prepared to learn from him.

The promoter gets the benefit under this provision.

Deputy Dillon asked me did I like professional boxing and I said I do like it, amateur or professional.

In the case of amateur boxing I am with the Deputy. Amateur boxing, properly controlled, I agree with, but I am dealing with professional boxing.

I have seen very good professional boxing.

My indictment of this is that professional boxing is promoted primarily for the advantage of the promoter, that the professional boxers are in fact exploited and that it is not a desirable business to promote in this country.

I want to make the case that the strongest possible evidence has been adduced, in professional papers of the highest standing in Gt. Britain, that extensive permanent injury is habitually done to the participants in professional boxing and that a very considerable number of those who continue in the business of professional boxing suffer irreparable brain injury. I think those who make that case will be prepared to concede that, under proper control and direction, these consequences do not flow from amateur boxing, where a different kind of glove is used, where more elaborate precautions are taken to protect the contestants and to discourage an attitude of mind which induces one of the contestants to seek to inflict on the other injuries, if that be the only way to secure a victory in the contest in which he is engaged.

Would the Deputy not agree that these matters would be for another Board to decide, rather than for this House?

For whom?

The question of injuries.

Not at all. This is exempting from taxation professional boxing and I want to make the case to the House that we should not exempt it. Is that not the idea? I think we might as well exempt bull-baiting. If I brought in a proposal here that we should insert cock fighting, Deputies would get up, raise their hands in holy horror and say that I was a savage. I would be obliged to reply: "Well, the cocks like fighting." But I have no reason whatever to believe that professional boxers like it. The poor cocks get nothing out of it but the animal satisfaction of fighting, though they do get that. The professional boxer does not. He goes into the ring to suffer these injuries in the hope of getting money, of getting security, of getting ultimately a sufficiency to enable him to establish himself in modest security. I am much more solicitous for men than I am for cocks.

There is a certain kind of mentality in this country which is much more concerned to protect animals from cruelty than to protect human beings. I am concerned to protect human beings much more than I am to protect animals; yet I recoil with loathing from the sport of cock fighting and I would oppose its promotion in any way I could. For much graver reasons, I want to put it to the House at this stage that we go no further than withhold from professional boxing tax exemption.

I think a very strong case could be made for prohibiting professional boxing in this society. In fact, I would be prepared to promote a Bill to prohibit professional boxing. I think it is a barbarous, detestable, indefensible and, I might almost say, unchristian occupation, pace Mr. Tunney, who is a most pious and Christian man. I think I would be prepared to argue with him that, on reflection, battering other men into a state of unconsciousness for money and public entertainment is a shocking thing.

I should like to hear somebody else argue the other side of the case. I should like to hear Deputy Russell on it—and I am not trying to put Deputy Russell out on a limb. I should like to hear some rational Deputy make the case for professional boxing, distinguished from bull-baiting or cock fighting.

Or badger baiting.

Suppose I suggested here that we should promote, by the exemption from taxation, a sport consisting of putting two evenly matched bulldogs into a ring, with the intention of keeping them there until one destroyed the other or rendered it immobile, I think everyone in the House would rise up and denounce it. Is that not so? But we are prepared to seek to exempt from tax what is euphemistically described as sport which consists in putting two human beings into a ring on the injunction to stay there until one smashes the other.

No, no. I do not want to make a speech, but——

I said I do not. The referee can stop the fight, as he did last week.

Yes, he stopped the fight, after one man had been knocked down seven times inside one minute but the cheering spectators had to be satisfied that the human victim had been pole-axed seven times in as many minutes. The criterion by which the referee was actuated to stay the proceedings was that if he did not stop the fight the man would be killed.

Carried out.

He would probably be killed. Surely if you are knocked unconscious seven times inside two minutes—

He was not knocked unconscious seven times.

I shall not quarrel with the Deputy over the fine distinction he makes. He lost his capacity for maintaining a perpendicular attitude seven times. How far that differs from unconsciousness is something I am not prepared to pass upon. I assume that the natural desire of a biped is to be perpendicular rather than horizontal and I think I am entitled to assume that if seven times he assumes a horizontal position it is due to some defective consciousness which divorces him from his natural instinct to remain upright. In any case, that divorce was effected seven times by violence within two minutes—because they were three-minute rounds and the round was not allowed to finish. I would say quite honestly that I think that is a barbarous, beastly, detestable occupation for civilised people to engage in and I recoil from the proposal to exempt it from entertainment tax.

I am not asking the Minister to go the length to-day of prohibiting it at this stage, though I shall reserve my right to supply the defect hereafter. I do ask the Minister to pause and consider, has he weighed up fully the implications of appearing to give his approbation to professional boxing by this specific tax exemption. I think Dáil Éireann ought to pause before it does that. I am prepared to argue that we should not approve of it, that we should condemn it; and recoil from the suggestion that it is entitled to tax exemption.

Is there any Deputy in Dáil Éireann who agrees with me? I look hopefully at two lady Deputies up there, trusting that their kind hearts may be actuated to say a word on behalf of the suffering of those who take part in this racket. They are about to be regarded as supporting the proposition that this occupation is one which they desire to support by tax exemption. I do not believe either of them do. I look to other Deputies in the Fianna Fáil benches who, I believe, share my point of view.

I do not think the Minister can take offence if some of us say to him that in listening to the representations that have been made to him, he has, perhaps, erred on the side of indulgence. I have no reason to believe that the Minister for Finance shares Deputy Russell's approbation of this occupation. I think very probably his attitude is one of indifference to it and lack of interest. But I want to suggest to him that his proposal does not present to the public a clear indication of that complete impartiality on this subject because he does appear to be going to the point of helping to promote such contests in this country.

I do not want to do that. If any of the well-known international promoters had in contemplation the promotion of an international professional boxing contest for the city of Dublin or anywhere else, my reaction would be to say: "We do not want you. It is a free country, but if you come here you will pay the full income tax habitually levied on lawful exhibitions of this kind. The Government offer you no encouragement whatever and would be just as happy if you stayed away."

We are not prepared to go to the extent of taking the step of prohibiting professional boxing, although I think we would be justified in going that extra step and in saying: " Amateur boxing, yes; professional boxing, no," because, if we will not allow a dog to bait a bull, if we will not allow cocks to fight cocks, if we will not allow dogs to fight dogs, then surely we should not promote in this country the practice of inducing with fantastic financial rewards men to fight men for the amusement of all sorts of people, and I use that phrase in deference to Deputy Russell because, but for his declaration of interest in this matter, I would have been inclined to employ a pejorative description for those who attend professional boxing matches.

I feel the point of view I hold may be simply summarised by saying that professional boxing does not seem to me to be a sport in the full sense of the word at all. I agree with Deputy Dillon that when it becomes a very big financial racket, as it is apt to be, it ceases to be a sport at all. As I understand it, the concessions are primarily to encourage people not only to look at exhibitions of sporting activities but also subsequently to learn from them and to take part in them themselves. I feel that as far as professional boxing is concerned, it is apt to become a rather horrible spectacle and I agree with much, if not all, of what Deputy Dillon said. By reason of the fact that it is not basically a sport, we should not be persuaded to accept this suggestion which, I gather, is to a certain extent influenced by consideration of tourist attractions, that some people feel we would bring a great number of tourists here if we had big world contests of this sort. We are trying to boost our tourist traffic to the very maximum, but I agree with Deputy Dillon that we should be able to produce better spectacles for the attraction of tourists than some—I would not say all—of the professional boxing matches which are taking place. This matter is one which deserves further consideration and I do not imagine that there would be any great objection from any quarter in this country if the word "amateur" were inserted before "boxing."

I personally do not see any objection to the encouragement of professional boxing in this or any other country. In spite of Deputy Dillon's long and somewhat highly coloured description of professional boxing, I have seen some very fine professional fights and some very gory amateur fights. I must say I enjoyed the professional fights in this case and certainly did not enjoy the amateur efforts.

There is substance in what Deputy Dillon said about the promoters or, shall we say, those associated in some instances with this sport of professional boxing. But if our criticism of a sport was based on the fact of not liking or suspecting those associated with it, we might also bring in horse racing or similar types of entertainment. I do not think that anybody would suggest for one moment that because certain individuals associated with horse racing are suspected of being crooked or dishonest, we should ban horse racing here. Whether we like to admit it or not, professional boxing is an accepted form of sport— perhaps "entertainment", as Deputy Booth says, might be a better word— in almost every country in the world.

It is quite wrong to compare professional boxing with cock fighting or bull fighting where the unfortunate animal has no choice but to do as it is trained or forced to do. Surely a human being—a man trained perhaps as an amateur and who has specially excelled himself in amateur ranks—has a perfect right to step into the professional ring and earn his living there, if he so desires, doing so of his own volition and knowing that it is, as Deputy Dillon described, a dangerous occupation. That is happening every day of the year.

If you do not give some encouragement in this country to professional boxing, that will not stop Irish lads from going across the channel, as they do, and engaging in professional boxing in England, the United States or elsewhere. Of course, let me be quite frank. In every form of sport, I would prefer the amateur code, but the fact that one prefers the amateur code should not prevent any young man, whether a professional jockey, a Rugby League professional or a professional boxer, from earning his living through his own prowess at some form of professional sport and I think he should be encouraged to do so.

The days are gone when sport was the occupation of gentlemen and the entertainment of gentlemen in this country. I take the view that in the case of any lad competent to earn his living in any form of professional sport, nothing should prohibit him from doing so if he is prepared to take the risk and all the other objections that go with it.

Is that not what professional boxing is: entertainment for gentlemen?

The first question Deputy Dillon asked me was: did I like professional boxing. Certainly I do like it, if it is a good boxing match. I like a good amateur fight, too. I do not see any reason why we should seek to stop the encouragement of professional boxing in Ireland. I do not see any objection to it, in spite of what Deputy Dillon said.

Let us be clear on this. What this amendment as such suggests is that apart from the Bill itself—Section 12 of the Bill originally covered boxing—so-called sports other than boxing should be included. What about all-in wrestling? Is that a sport? I have never seen or heard of any all-in wrestling that could be described as a sport by any reasonable person. It is certainly considerably nearer to crude brutality than professional boxing and yet under subsection 4 we are deliberately encouraging all - in wrestling. It does not seem to me that there is a case for a prohibition—I do not go quite so far as Deputy Dillon in that respect—but there is a great difference between prohibiting something and giving it express statutory encouragement and that is what the remission of taxation in this way is doing.

I have no very strong views on professional boxing or wrestling or any of those things, but as Deputy Sweetman has just pointed out, in the original section as it stands—not in the amendment—the question of boxing was dealt with. I was asked by, I think, the Dublin Tostal Council if we could exempt professional boxing because they might organise a contest during the Tostal season. I do not know whether they did or did not. The way I looked at it was that we were getting no revenue from it. We got no revenue whatever.

What is the actual taxation?

I am not sure. We never got any revenue from it and, as I say, it is a revenue tax.

Surely the Minister must be wrong. There has been professional boxing in Ireland. Entertainments duty has been charged in respect of it and, therefore, there must have been some revenue.

Not for many years. I think there was only one contest. Anyway, as I said——

Was that when Jem Roche was knocked out?

That was not entertainment.

Not for a Wexford man anyway.

As I say, it is a revenue tax and we got no revenue whatever from it, so I thought we should not keep it but that we should get rid of taxation on those sports, including wrestling which Deputy Sweetman mentioned. If Deputy Dillon or anyone else has strong views on this matter they should bring in a Bill to deal with it. This is not the way to do it. Let it be dealt with on its merits whether promoted or not but to deal with it by prohibitive taxes is not the right way to do it.

I should like to deal with just one matter which was mentioned by Deputy Dillon. As I said, I have no strong views one way or the other, but I should just like to say that I read what Deputy Dillon referred to as the opinions of very reputable professional men on the evils and the injuries that resulted from professional boxing. A few weeks afterwards, I saw a reply from equally reputable men who said there was nothing in that, so there you have a difference of opinion. Those men signed a second statement saying that, in their experience, professional boxing, when properly promoted, held no danger and they actually gave the statistics of the deaths and injuries, which appeared to be very low.

They were all attached to the Boxing Board of Control.

That may be the case——

They were medical gentlemen, nonetheless.

They gave the figures of those who had been killed or injured, and certainly the figures were very low, and there was no great case made about it. My point is that it is a revenue tax which is of no use and, as a request was made to me, I agreed to remit it as it was no use as a means of revenue. If Deputy Dillon wants to deal with it, he should bring in a special Bill.

I want to make the case that what we are doing now in exempting professional boxing at the request of the Tostal Council is a disaster. The implication is that we want to glorify the promotion of such contests in Dublin as a Tostal attraction. I do not; I am opposed to it. The Minister for Finance is being less than frank with us when he says that he saw the expression of opinion to which I referred and subsequently saw an equally authoritative expression of opinion from an equally representative group of medical persons. The first group of medical persons were persons who could at least profess to be independent observers, whereas the second group avowed themselves to be attached to the Boxing Board of Control, charged with the responsibility of making a case for professional boxing. Interestingly enough, the Minister agrees with me that in making their statement on behalf of professional boxing, they went into the statistics of deaths and permanent injuries. Well, you know, that is not a very convincing case. They at least admit that deaths and permanent injuries arise from what is described as a sport.

I agree with the view expressed by Deputy Russell that a fellow will know what he is going into, and does so at his own peril, in distinction from the animals, but there is this fundamental difference: these are poor men in the vast majority lured by fantastic monetary reward. Why does Deputy Russell shake his head?

Because the monetary reward at the outset is very small.

Yes, but the ultimate objective of these unfortunate youths is to attain to a day when they will arrive at the greater rewards of the profession. That is why they become professional boxers. Deputy Russell says he does not see anything wrong in that and I am saying that I do not think Dáil Eireann ought to put its seal of approval on promotions of that character. I see everything wrong with it.

I sympathise with Deputy Sweetman's distinction between boxing and all-in wrestling which he says is an even more revolting occupation. He may be right and I may be wrong, but I have gone into the matter with some care and I believe that a more benevolent body of citizens than all-in wrestlers it would be hard to find. They jump on one another and hurl one another about the ring and gouge, bite and trample on one another, and never a hair is disturbed or a bruise left. It is like ballet dancing. They clap their hands loudly together when a mighty blow is struck, not a rib of hair is disturbed, but the whole audience is thrown into a state of sympathetic excitement. They lift each other up and hurl each other about the ring and like acrobats, they fall and make a loud noise without taking the slightest hurt. They go from town to town en pair and grow long whiskers. They shake their gory locks at each other and hurl each other around without taking the slightest hurt, and if inadvertently one hurts the other, it causes serious concern to both parties.

I am told that all-in wrestling has, in fact, becoming a completely farcical fraud partaking more of ballet than of wrestling. There are some people who enjoy it, however. It disgusts me, but, from the point of view of the welfare of the participants in it, I am informed that, ridiculous and grotesque as the whole procedure is, there is really no need for solicitude in regard to it. It has become notoriously a simulacrum of real wrestling and is now no more than a display in which neither party suffers any serious inconvenience in its prosecution.

That is not the case in professional boxing. In professional boxing we are dealing with an entirely different thing. In professional boxing the main objective is that the maximum injury should be inflicted by one man upon another, and that for money. The whole prospect which induces young persons to enter into the business of professional boxing is the hope of ultimate monetary reward on the grand scale. I detest that. I believe it is all wrong.

I want to re-emphasise that, although I say all that about professional boxing, I am prepared at the same time emphatically to defend and to approve of amateur boxing under proper control and to advocate it for my own child and for the children of prudent parents. I think that a perfectly valid distinction can, and should be, made and not to make the distinction is to allow one's heart rather than one's head to guide one. It is a silly thing to send boys out into the world wrapped in cotton wool. It is a good thing to train boys to meet adversity with fortitude, dignity and self-control. Not all parents may feel that amateur boxing is the best medium through which to teach them that lesson, but I am prepared to say that it is one of the best.

I distinguish most emphatically and in the strongest possible degree between amateur boxing and the degradation of that laudable sport in professional boxing, which I regard as nothing more than the sale of man's bodily prowess for money, the bulk of which finds its way into the pockets of those who make little or no contribution to the sum of human suffering and injury which is the inevitable residue of professional boxing as a whole.

I am against this remission. I wish more Deputies who agree with me would express that view. I sympathise with those who say that, while they would not remit the tax, they would be reluctant to prohibit the occupation. I would go so far as to say that, far from subscribing to the desire of the Tostal Council to induce international promoters to stage their contests here, we should, if necessary, go to the extreme of fixing them with notice that they would not be tolerated.

Question put and agreed to, Deputy Dillon recorded as dissenting.
Section 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.
Question proposed: " That Section 14 stand part of the Bill."

Could the Minister give us the changes? A different scale from the old scale is provided in Section 14. What are the differences?

There is complete exemption up to 2/6. The old scale was 1½d. on 6d., 2d. on 9d., 3d. on 1/-, 4d. on 1/6d., 4d. on 2/- and 6d. on 2/6d. All those are gone now. On a 3/- admission now, it will be 3d.; it was 9d. On 3/6d., it will be 6d.; it was 9d. On 3/9d., it will be 7d.; it was 9d. On 4/6d., it will be 10d.; it was 1/-. On 5/6d., it will now be 10d.; it was 1/-. The Schedule gives the admission charge without duty.

If you have a dance in which you have to pay 5/- going in —leaving out supper and anything else —the tax is now 5d.; in other words, it is 4/7d. plus 5d. duty. What was that before?

Take 4/6d.—that is the full charge including duty. The duty was 1/-. It will now be 10d.

What was it in the case of the 5/- admission charge?

It used to be 1/-. It will now be 10d. also. What is shown here in the Table is admission less duty. Is the Deputy looking at No. 1 or No. 2?

No. 1, paragraph (a). That is the medium-sized town, so to speak; (b) is the full town.

That is so. (a) applies to a population under 2,000.

Now it will be 5d. whereas it was 6d. and in the second case it will be 10d. whereas it was 1/-.

Exactly.

Did the Minister give any consideration to taxing the hall on its capacity? That suggestion was made last year by me and some other Deputies. The Minister promised to look into it. Did he find it impracticable?

I gave it very full consideration indeed. Various alternatives were suggested. It was suggested halls should be taxed on valuation. It was suggested they should be taxed on capacity. A third suggestion was putting a specific tax on every dance, like a licence fee for every dance. None of these seemed as equitable as this arrangement. One could have dances where the profit might be £100 and the same tax would be paid in that case as would be paid in the case of a dance where a loss might actually be sustained because of low attendance. This appears to be the most equitable method of meeting the situation, namely, taxing on attendances and on prices.

The Minister gave the figure in the Budget—what is the average income from the dance tax?

It was £150,000 to £160,000 and we calculated that this concession that we are giving here will cost £25,000 this year.

I would not throw away that money at all.

The Minister, I am sure, in his consideration of this question of fixing a flat rate, as Deputy Russell suggested, came across the earlier papers in respect of it. I must confess that I was very attracted by the proposal to fix a flat rate and it was the procedure in Donegal at that time which made it appear impossible to me. In most parts of the country, where a dance hall proprietor is making an application to the court to get his licences for the year, he specifies a maximum number for which he wants a licence. If that were a universal practice throughout the country, it would be simple enough to fix a flat tax on that permissive number granted by the court. The promoter owning the dance hall would know that if he exceeded that number he would be guilty of an offence and, therefore, he would try to pitch his number as high as he reasonably could, bearing the tax in mind.

While that is the practice in Leinster and I think, also, in Munster, it certainly is not the practice in Donegal. In Donegal, there is no question of any fixed number being inserted in the licence. If the Minister could get a universal practice adopted by his colleague, the Minister for Justice, in relation to the licensing of all dance halls, he would have a very simple flat method of taxation available to him, which would save a great deal of trouble and would be even fairer than this method, but he cannot have that until that is done.

I missed this point on Section 13 but it rises under Section 14 also— what is the difference between a ball and a dance?

I do not know. A ball used to be a grander word than a dance, in my time.

Why is the definition included in Section 13, "which is a ball or dance" and why is it in Section 14 only "a dance"?

Ministers may attend a ball but would not attend a dance.

It depends on whether it is for a political Party or not.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

Section 15 is the patent theatre live show provision, is it not?

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 16
Question proposed: "That Section 16 stand part of the Bill."

Does the Minister think that the effect of this section will be sufficient to save the cinematograph industry, if we may call it that, in this country? I think it is doubtful. I do not know whether or not the Minister has available for the House a statement as to the number of people who are employed directly in that industry in establishments, quite apart from the desirability of there being built up here a film industry. It is clear that there cannot be a film industry built up in Ireland unless there is a prospering cinematograph-showing industry. The competition of television and of sport, such as professional boxing; which has been relieved from duty, and all the other competition that there is with the cinemas from a variety of modern amusements that have arisen since the cinematograph attendances were at their peak, make it rather doubtful to me that the reductions that have been granted here will be sufficient to ensure that the trade remains.

The Minister is in the difficult situation in respect of this type of entertainments duty that he wants revenue, naturally enough, but, if he does not give concessions in respect of cinema revenue, he will not have any revenue at all very shortly because the attendances are so much on the wane. The best way of improving the size of his golden egg might well be to give further concessions. I should like to hear from him what consideration he gave to that aspect of the problem.

I agree with Deputy Sweetman in that matter. There is no doubt that the cinema industry is in a parlous state these days. Anybody who has any experience of provincial cinemas knows that they have been suffering for some years past from falling attendances. That is causing considerable worry as to the future of the industry to proprietors of cinemas and to their employees.

I appreciate that, as Deputy Sweetman says, the Minister must cut his coat according to his financial measure but, as far as I can see, in this case it is a question of choosing between revenue and the complete decline of an industry. I think I am correct in saying that, even after these concessions, the position in this country, vis-á-vis the position in Great Britain, appears to be very unfavourable. I have not the figures at my disposal but I think I am correct in saying that up to 1/6d. there is no tax in Great Britain. I would impress on the Minister the necessity of reviewing this entertainment duty because, otherwise, I am afraid cinema attendances will decline very rapidly.

It is quite true, as Deputy Russell said, that the scale of taxes in this country is higher than in Great Britain. I am afraid we could not afford to bring our taxes down to the low level of the British taxes. It would be a very big loss to the revenue. What we have done this year will be of considerable help. The position is that we collected almost the same duty in the financial year 1958/59 as in 1957/58. Therefore, it may be taken that attendances at cinemas were practically the same for those two years. The point made, of course, was that cinema proprietors were not able to meet their expenses, in other words, that they were going over the line, as it were, from the green into the red, and were not able to make repairs or do any sort of decoration on their cinemas, and so on, and that some of them had reached the point where they felt they would have to close down. Deputies can take it that we are contributing, if you like, by this reduction in taxation about £150,000 between them this year and that will be a considerable sum when divided amongst the various cinema proprietors. I think it will be a great help and we shall wait to see how it will work. We shall know from the revenue we collect what the attendances are like and if, taking this reduction into account, the revenue will show that the attendances are being well maintained, then, I suppose, we need not have any great worry; we can come to the conclusion that cinema owners are doing all right. I think we can deal with this and see how it goes.

Has the Minister available the total cinema seating capacity in the country?

No, I am afraid I have not. However, I know from the collection of tax that the attendance was as good in the 1958/59 financial year as it was in 1957/58.

Has the Minister any information as to whether the attendance is keeping at the same level this year? Particularly as regards the urban cinemas, it appears to be generally accepted that there has been a very substantial falling-off in attendances to such an extent that there has been quite a serious danger of a number of them actually closing down. I think that the reliefs given have not enabled the proprietors to pass on any benefit to those attending the cinemas. Consequently, while the reliefs may be of value so far as the proprietors' problem is concerned, from the point of view of their essential expenditure, they have been of no help whatever from the point of view of keeping up attendances. Surely this is the aspect of the matter which will affect this industry, particularly in the urban areas?

I think it is almost common knowledge that, generally speaking, except for one or two days in the week, the cinemas have half or three-quarter empty houses, with the exception of one or two. I think it would not be incorrect to say that the standard of films generally has fallen—possibly because the cinema proprietors are not able to supply the higher standard through economic causes. However, it appears generally to be the position— in the city, anyway—that the attendances are falling. I do not know whether the Minister has any up-to-date information on this matter and whether he would consider it from the point of view of assisting this industry to help its own development or its own existence by being able to offer to the patrons some attraction by way of reduced prices.

I have not any information about the attendances since last March. I could not give the Deputy any information on that. I am afraid it would cost a very big amount to enable the cinema proprietors to reduce the price of seats. So far as I know, there is no hope of that at all. When I was speaking to them, it seemed that their only hope was to leave the seating prices as they were and to pay less in tax. Some proprietors told me that there was a tendency for people to go to a higher-priced seat than was their habit heretofore. Whether or not that is because they are better off now than formerly, I cannot say. I think they took that as an indication that they would not necessarily have to reduce the price of the seats.

I may treat that with some reserve, I presume?

That did not come from all of them—only from some of them.

What percentage?

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 17.
Question proposed: "That Section 17 stand part of the Bill."

According to the White Paper this section increases from two to four years the waiting period before increases in census population figures affect liability to duty of entertainments in rural areas. Is that based on the new methods which the Central Statistics Office is now operating in respect of towns?

That is right. It has caused some trouble, too.

Should there not be some off-setting figure in regard to the size of population now? I do not know what the old definition was. Say it was 500, 600 or 800 for a town or village. Should that not be increased now to correspond with the increased size of these towns and villages, having regard to the wider area now being taken in? In some cases, the diameter is now three miles and they call it a village.

It may even extend as far as three miles. That has created a good deal of trouble here. I see some towns marked here that were very small. Now they are towns because these areas are added on. I thought the simplest way to deal with this at the moment was to give another two years so as to give us time to consider what to do about it.

I do not know what the present definition of a town is, whether it is a thousand or not. Is it not fair that a definition of a town should be increased, say, to 1,500 in such circumstances?

According to the census of population, it is between 1,000 and 2,000. They pay half-tax but if it is over 1,000 they pay full tax. I am referring now to cinemas.

This new method of the Central Statistics Office now brings into the category of town what were not formerly towns and is making them liable to tax.

Quite a big number will now become towns under the definition of the census.

They believe that the purpose was to bring them into the category.

Can the Minister give the number of towns that would be involved? I think he mentioned 12 in his Budget speech but they were those that had previously been exempt and the two years were up. How many towns came in, in the past couple of years?

Twenty-one will come into the lower category and four, which were removed from the lower category, will come into the higher category.

When is the next census?

There was a publication of the census two years ago. I suppose it will be eight years before there is another one.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 18
Question proposed: "That Section 18 stand part of the Bill."

I should like some information in relation to this section. It is for the purpose of providing ease of administration both by the oil refinery and by the Revenue Commissioners in relation to it. I am not clear in the beginning why there is, in subsection (5), the exception of lubricating oil.

"other than lubricating oil".

Yes. I am not clear as to why it is "other than lubricating oil". I do not quite understand why that is involved. I thought lubricating oil was inevitably one of the derivatives of crude that come in. I cannot see why the provisions are excepted there.

I do not quite understand why there should be any repayment provision, as set out in subsection (3). I thought the effect of this section was that oil could be moved under certain conditions in such a way that it would not be necessary to pay the duty and therefore there would be no repayment. It is possible that this is intended only to be an interim——

Subsection (3) applies to agricultural purposes.

I thought this referred to the refinery rather than to the use, by distribution and retail, afterwards because the Minister's White Paper suggests that these provisions are designed to enable crude oils to be delivered free of customs duty to the refinery and to remedy certain omissions and defects in the excise laws relating to oils.

That would be subsection 1.

Perhaps we could clear the situation more easily if the Minister could tell us on the one hand, which of these provisions enables crude oils to be delivered free of customs duty to the refinery and, on the other hand, which of the provisions remedies certain omissions and defects in the excise laws relating to oils and what are they. I am sure both of them must be in his brief.

Yes. Subsection I deals with having oil duty free consigned to the refinery. The customs duty will not be levied. No. 2, if the refinery goes into the export business, there will be no excise on that part of the oil produced. No. 3 deals with where there is remission of duty such as on petrol for agricultural purposes.

Surely that power was already there.

There was a remission of customs duty not excise. No. 4 deals with paints and oils, and No. 5 provides for where the products are used in goods for export. In that case, it is laid down in the clause that where petrol is used for combustion in working the factory, it is not exempt. The same would apply to lubricating oil. It is only where they are used in the process of preparing goods for export. No. 6 is similar to No. 5 except that it refers to ingredients for manufacturing purposes.

If lubricating oil is used as an article for export, should it not be exempt in the same way as petrol? I am not talking of user for combustion.

If used in lubricating machines, it would not be exempt.

No, that would be the same as combustion, but the lubricating oil that is sent out with machines has the same right to be free of duty as petrol sent out in a tank.

Petrol is not exempt either.

I thought hydrocarbon oil covered heavy and light hydrocarbon oil.

Diesel and paraffin are referred to principally.

Does hydrocarbon oil not cover petrol also?

Not in this section.

Not in this section or in this definition?

Petrol is mineral hydrocarbon oil.

In regard to the authority which the oil refinery people have under the section, will there be sufficient power to the Revenue Commissioners to enable them to administer this properly?

They will agree to all this.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 19.
Question proposed: "That Section 19 stand part of the Bill".

As I said on the Second Stage, the Minister in his Budget speech got away with murder in this connection. He succeeded in giving the impression to everybody who read the Budget speech the next day and all who heard it then that he was making some very striking remissions in relation to import levies. In fact, he did nothing of the sort and by and large what has been done in relation to the levies since Deputy Dr. Ryan became Minister for Finance has been divisible in three ways. A small amount has been remitted altogether; a large amount has been converted from temporary taxation into permanent impositions; and a further amount is now continued as levies here. I want to get some clarification in relation to some of these levies that are now imposed by the Order. I have the various notices that have been issued by the Revenue Commissioners and while I am sure there was every anxiety when these notices were being prepared to make them as clear as possible, they may be understandable to some people, but to my limited intelligence they appear to have passed beyond the language of ordinary everyday trade and commerce.

I am not too clear, for example, what is the position in relation to imported newspapers. I shall spare the Minister the castigation he deserves in regard to the levy on newsprint. I say "the castigation he deserves in respect of the levy on newsprint" because I remember what he said about it in 1956 and in 1957 when he was in Opposition. I want to be quite clear what is the position in respect of the competition by imported newspapers with the home, nationally-produced article. First of all, let me come to Statutory Instrument No. 63 of 1959 which is the one we are here confirming and Section 11 of that Article together with the interpretation that is set out on page 3 of the neostyled notice that was issued by the Revenue Commissioners originally.

It seems to me that an Irish newspaper has to pay the 5 per cent. newsprint duty regardless of the size of the circulation. On the other hand, a newspaper or a priodical—as far as I can understand the situation, it applies to periodicals just the same as newspapers —that is produced outside the State, if its circulation in the State does not exceed 6,000 copies, does not have to pay it on them. It seems to me that there is a preference in favour of that imported newspaper or periodical. It is entirely illogical that that should be the case. The position would arise particularly also in respect of weekly newspapers which are printed just the other side of the Border in the Six Counties. Some of those are ones with which I have little in common. Some of them are good newspapers but whether they are ones of which I approve or of which the Minister approves, or whether they are ones of which the Minister or I disapprove, it is entirely wrong that they should be enabled to compete on terms that are unfavourable to, say, Donegal weekly newspapers. I should like to hear from the Minister what will be the future policy in that respect. The time has certainly come to remedy that anachronism.

There is also a position, I believe, in respect of which an Irish newspaper produced in the State pays its newsprint duty on returns. It has, in fact, paid newsprint duty before the paper was printed. A foreign newspaper, if I may use that phrase for the purpose of describing something that is not produced here, brings in its paper. If it does not sell it here, I understand that it can export the returns and obtain a drawback of the levy previously paid. If that is the position, and it is only in comparatively recent times that I have been informed it is—I certainly did not know it was the position in 1956 or in 1957—that should be changed. There should be the same provision relating to returns of each paper so as to provide, for example, if there was a difference in the levy between the one and the other, that the amount of the drawback would be limited to such a sum as exceeded what would be the 5 per cent. tax on that newsprint, as if it were for the newsprint duty instead of for the individual duty.

I should like also, apart from that, to have some indication from the Minister as to what some of these references mean in this because I found it very difficult, indeed, to understand them. Do I understand that the provision in the Order which makes golf caddie-cars and component parts liable to duty similarly exempts wheelbarrows and handcarts? I cannot see what the analogy is between the two.

It is also desirable that the Minister should make clear for the benefit of the House what is the ordinary licensing provision and the special manufacturing licensing provision. Those, I think, were two different types of licensing provisions that were introduced for the first time last year.

Can the Minister give us a list of the items, subject to levy, that are not produced in this country or, if it is easier for him to do it the other way round, the list of the articles that are produced in this country which are also subject to levy? It seems to me that the pattern there was in relation to special import levies has become entirely distorted now and that the special import levies are being utilised not merely by budgetary calculations for the purpose of providing revenue to balance the Budget but also that the articles upon which the levy is being imposed are being considered now from the revenue point of view rather than from the deterrent point of view.

When these levies were first imposed for the purpose of remedying the deficit in our balance of payments, they had a twofold effect. There was, first of all, the deterrent effect because it meant that the price of the article that was going to be consumed—I am using the word "consumption" in the technical sense—would be higher. Naturally, when the price of the article, as a result of the levy, was higher, less was going to be consumed.

There was also a second effect. The levies were designed to have and did have this effect. The transfer of the amount raised from levy to capital account was going to prevent any inflation that might arise because of the amount of the capital expenditure by the State. The Minister has changed from that, has abandoned the second completely and the anti-inflationary effect that was there has gone altogether. To that extent, therefore, in so far as the levies are retained under the name of levy or duty, I think they would be about £3,000,000. I think that £3,000,000 advantage in fighting against the balance of payments deficit has been thrown away completely. I think I am right in saying that the amount involved now is a little over £3,000,000. The amount that is left in relation to levy as such is nothing like so great but the Minister has transferred the many levies into the permanent customs duty code and in considering the advantages from a balance of payments point of view it is proper that those should be included.

I do not know why the Minister has terminated certain levies and transferred them to permanent customs duties. I am inclined to the view that a great deal of that determination is a breach of faith with the arrangements made at the time the levies were imposed. The Minister is aware, of course, that the levies were imposed because we were able to take advantage of the escape clause in our trading agreement. So long as we were imposing levies for balance of payment purposes—nobody can deny they were so imposed in 1956—we were enabled under our trading agreements to do that. Once we no longer deal with them on a balance of payments basis, once we are imposing levies purely for the purpose of obtaining revenue, once we have abandoned the second part of the reason for those levies to finance pro tanto the capital programme, then I think we are laying ourselves open to a charge of a breach of faith. That is not a thing that should be done. It is one that may militate considerably against us in relation to future discussions for a future trading agreement or in relation to future action it may be necessary to take, if and when another balance of payments difficulty should arise.

I do not propose to discuss under this section the general balance of payments situation. All I am going to say to that is that the Minister himself acknowledged in his Budget speech of May, 1957, that when he took over office, we were in balance on our external account but we are certainly not in balance now. We are certainly in the red. The extent to which we are in the red for abnormal causes is a matter upon which the Minister and I might disagree, but the Minister cannot disagree with me when I say he took over an external account on balance, because he admitted it himself in May, 1957, and that he has now got an external account that is out of balance.

That is a sad commentary on a period of little over two years during which the terms of trade have been moving in Ireland's favour. During the whole of the period, since February 1957, import prices have been gradually dropping and export prices gradually rising. It is in those circumstances, in which everything was in our favour, that we now have a trade deficit for the first five months of this year of some £11,000,000 more than last year. Even allowing for the fact that some of that deficit may be accounted for by abnormal imports it is one which is substantial and which shows a drift in the wrong direction. We can only hope that for the sake of the country the drift is not one that will continue.

First of all, I just want to say a word about the newspapers. Some time ago some of the proprietors of the newspapers published on the Six County side of the Border, which have a circulation on this side of the Border, made representations that they were suffering a great disadvantage because of the tariff charged on these papers. After consideration I thought we should allow them continue to circulate without getting any advantage over the papers produced on this side of the Border. As a result they were permitted to send their papers across subject to a tariff of one halfpenny a dozen. I believe that is slightly more than the papers on this side have to pay as duty on newsprint. It is negligible but still it is a bit more. With relation to the British newspapers——

It is intended to be a rough approximation, is it?

That is right. With regard to the British newspapers, the British dailies pay two-thirds of a penny duty plus five-sixths of a penny import levy, which is a penny halfpenny. The Sunday papers pay three-farthings. There is no ordinary duty, I think, only an import levy. On the sale or return of these papers they get a refund: it has been about 7½ per cent. over the last year or so. It is far and away a much higher levy than the Irish newspapers have to pay. It has been calculated at some 20 times more than the Irish newspapers have to pay.

I do not agree with Deputy Sweetman in regard to converting the levies into ordinary duties. In most cases they are protective duties and, in the case of protective duties, I do not think that it could be regarded as a breach of faith because our policy is to build up our industries and when it comes to the time when we can produce an article for ourselves we bring in some measure of protection. That is what happened in the great majority of these cases. We were approaching a point where we could produce these articles here and we converted the levy, as it were, into a permanent protective duty. I do not think it could be regarded as a breach of faith because we would have done it in any case, even if the levies had never been there.

The Deputy referred to two matters of licensing. This may be the answer. There is the ordinary licensing provision which also holds for articles to be imported free of duty. I think we discussed this matter already on this Bill. Usually the licence is given by the Minister for Finance on the recommendation of the Minister for Industry and Commerce and usually the reason given is that the articles are being used in some manufacturing process. Under the import levies there is a different type of licence. There is the special licensing provision but it can only be exercised where the articles are used for manufacturing. There is no discretion whatever outside that. There is a different form of licence used in the two and I think these are the two referred to by the Deputy.

Future shadows casting their effects.

The Deputy must excuse me for that. The Deputy gave the impression that we had not done very much in this clause in freeing articles from the import levy. Well, the list of articles is quite impressive. I think I gave an estimate at the time that we would lose, by way of revenue, about £200,000 this year as a result of freeing these articles. The amount collected is comparatively small because the list of articles is small. The list is available in the library for any Deputy who wishes to see it. The Deputy asked me for the list which is still remaining. I have not got it with me but I shall send it to him. It is comparatively small and consists only of about 20 remaining articles which are subject to the import levy. Some of these are articles which yield a substantial return and I shall let the Deputy have the list.

It is about 10 per cent.—£200,000 out of £2,700,000, if the Minister looks at the Schedule to the Order. I do not quite understand this licensing situation still. If the Minister looks at the Schedule he will see under the first item—"Non-alcoholic beverages": "The ordinary licensing provision applies to the duty mentioned at this reference number." That I can understand is the ordinary licensing provision. If one goes to item 3 (a) it begins by saying that "The ordinary licensing provision applies to the duty mentioned at this reference number". Then it goes on immediately—I am reading from the neostyle, I do not know whether or not the Minister has the same one as myself—: "The special manufacturing licensing provision applies to the duty mentioned at this reference number in so far as it is chargeable on articles other than those mentioned in the foregoing provision."

I cannot understand which articles have the ordinary licensing provision or which have the special licensing provision. I am speaking about item 3 (a) at the bottom of page 8 and the top of page 9 of the neostyle that was circulated at the time of the Budget. I do not know if a printed copy has become available since or not, but certainly I have not seen one. These were ones that were made available by the Minister at Budget time.

I do not understand the difference in having the special manufacturing licensing provision and the ordinary licensing provision both applicable in respect of the same class of articles, that is to say, those in Reference 3 (a), which appears to me to be the situation there. The same situation, as far as I could see, does not apply in respect of any of the other references to the heads of duty. In relation to the others, we appear to have either the ordinary licensing provision and in respect of No. 4, the special manufacture licensing provision. Similarly in No. 5 it is the ordinary one—No. 6 the special, No. 7 the special, No. 8 the ordinary and No. 9 the ordinary. I should like to ask the Minister to make it clear to me why, of all the classifications, only No. 3 appears to have both licensing provisions and not any of the others. I do not quite understand.

The Minister referred to a long list of articles. There were some articles in respect of which levy was terminated and duty was not imposed again—walking sticks, rods, pickles. The poor unfortunate taxpayer may now bring in rods and pickles but, seriously, the list of things excluded from levy is long in number but trifling in importance and the levy, as now existent, appears to be collectable to the extent of about 9/10ths of the amount collected last year.

I should also like to ask the Minister on this section—it is as good a section as any other on which I can make the request—what is the explanation of the customs figure that has appeared in recent weeks in Iris Oifigiúil? I understood, as the result of the freeing of certain articles from levy, and as the effect of transferring the liability from levy to one of duty, that it was likely that the customs duty this year would be running at a higher rate than last year, but customs duty as well as levy are running at a substantially lower rate. The answer may well be that it is the effect of the tobacco provision that we discussed already.

But if there is any other explanation, other than the tobacco section we discussed already, I should be glad if the Minister would tell me.

It is entirely due to the tobacco. I am afraid we have not been able to find this reference the Deputy quoted.

It may be that the Minister's neostyle copy and my neostyle copy are different. Perhaps I can send it across to him. The copy I have is the one that was circulated at Budget time. I have not got one since.

I am sure we can clear this up by to-morrow.

Is there any other section upon which we can clear it up later? It is on the bottom of page 8 and the top of page 9 on the neostyle copy I have. The bottom of page 8 provides the ordinary licensing provision; the top of page 9 provides the special manufacture licensing provision and it is the only reference number that has both. I should like to know why? Is there any other section on which I can raise this?

There is a section on customs. The Deputy could raise it on that.

I can raise it where, Sir?

On the Third Schedule.

I think it will be out of order, but if everybody will let me be out of order, perhaps I shall be only too willing to be out of order.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 20.

I move amendment No. 3:

Before section 20, but in Part III, to insert a new section as follows:

Subsection (1) (c) of section 35 of the Finance Act, 1941 (No. 14 of 1941) is hereby amended by the substitution of "£5,000" for "£2,500" wherever the latter figure occurs.

The purpose of this amendment is to increase or raise the exemption limit for corporation profits tax from the present figure of £2,500 to £5,000. I had a similar amendment down 12 months ago and on that occasion the Minister, while sympathetic, regretted that he could not afford to give the concession. I should like to reiterate the arguments I put forward on that occasion.

First of all, this amendment is intended to assist the small and middlesized business, particularly the family business. Having regard to the fact that the exemption limit of £2,500 has been in vogue since 1941, that is, 18 years, it is high time the figure was revised upwards to at least the figure I have suggested, £5,000. The Minister for Industry and Commerce and other Ministers have pointed out the necessity for creating dynamic progress, particularly in the private sector of the economy, and I suggest that this comparatively small amendment would be something towards that end.

As the Minister is aware, if a firm make a loss in one particular year and the following year make a profit, they cannot carry forward the loss for the purpose of corporation profits tax and that is another valid reason why the exemption limit should be raised, if not done away with altogether. During the past 12 months, corporation profits tax has been completely done away with in England and that makes our position here more invidious than it was up to 12 months ago. Again, I should like to point out to the Minister the desirability of revising this figure substantially upwards and I would suggest that the limit of £5,000 is a reasonable one.

I do not think that the companies could complain. During the past two years, we have given them a number of reliefs which now amount to £1,000,000 in the present year. These reliefs have been built up, as I say, over the past two or three years and this year, for instance, the reduction of 6d. in the ordinary rate of income tax will benefit a company with £5,000 profits—which Deputy Russell proposes to relieve to the extent of another £162 —to the amount of £119. We have done something for small companies. We have almost done as much as the Deputy suggested last year. I do not think I could agree with the Deputy that Britain has done away with this tax. This is a profits tax.

It is a corporation tax they did away with in Britain, not a corporation profits tax.

I am sorry.

It is rather involved. Where the profits come in between £2,000 and £12,000, there is a sort of formula for reducing the amount. Take the two countries in comparison. A firm with £2,500 profits here would pay £875 and a firm with the same amount in England would pay £1,028. On £4,000 in England, a firm would pay £1,790 and here £1,497, so that actually they pay a little more on profits in England than they do here.

Is that income tax?

They have income tax which is higher than we have.

But is it income tax to which the Minister is referring?

They have the income tax of course and I should make this distinction also—if you pay corporation profits tax here it is allowed from income tax; it is not allowed in England. In every way we are better than England as regards this.

We might not agree on this but I am withdrawing the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
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