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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 1959

Vol. 176 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Sea Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1959—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

This Bill proposes to amend the Sea Fisheries Acts, 1952 to 1956, a group of Acts not included in the Fisheries (Consolidation) Act which recently became law. The Act of 1952 is that which, among other things, established An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. The main provision of the Bill is to be found in Section 2 which authorises the making of advances from the Central Fund to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara up to a limit of £3,000,000. The present limit of £1,000,000 will soon be reached: a balance of only £14,867 remains and, when that amount is drawn, the Board would be unable to carry on their normal activities without additional funds.

These advances are repayable by the Board with interest and are used in the main to finance the purchase of boats and gear. They are also applied to meet part of the cost of fish processing stations, ice making plants and other premises and equipment. The additional £2,000,000 now being authorised will meet the Board's requirements for some years to come.

The Board consists of six members and their period of office is two years —a rather short time in which to become familiar with the complex business involved. Section 3 of the Bill extends the normal term of office to three years and introduces a system under which two of the six members will complete their term each year. The two members retiring by rotation would, of course, be eligible for reappointment. I think this provision will help to secure stability and continuity in the Board's policy—which is an important factor in the development of the sea-fishing industry.

Sections 4 and 5 of the Bill and the new sub-section which I propose to move on Committee Stage are not of immediate practical significance: they amend provisions which, although on the statute book, are not actually in operation. The provisions in question are in Section 9 of the Sea Fisheries Act, 1952, and relate to the licensing of vessels for sea-fishing. If those provisions were in operation, no vessel exceeding thirty-five feet over all in length could be used for sea-fishing except under and in accordance with a licence under the section.

To qualify for a licence, a vessel would have to be owned by an Irish citizen or a company the whole of the share capital of which is held by Irish citizens. This reference to share capital could prove unduly restrictive in present circumstances. A few years after the 1952 Act became law, another Act—the Mercantile Marine Act, 1955—was passed declaring that a body corporate established under and subject to the law of the State and having its principal place of business in the State is qualified to own a ship registered here. It will be noted that there is no reference to share capital in the later legislation.

A case could arise in which an Irish vessel—owned by an Irish body corporate, duly registered here and legally entitled to fish within our exclusive fishery limits—would not be eligible for a licence under Section 9 of the 1952 Act as it stands. That position could be quite untenable—particularly if the body corporate in question had been encouraged to engage in the canning or processing of fish or the production of fish meal and had found it necessary to acquire the vessel to provide raw material for its factory owing to lack of supplies from other sources. Section 4 of the Bill avoids this possibility by deleting the reference to a company and its share capital and substituting an Irish body corporate as defined in the Mercantile Marine Act, 1955.

Another restriction in Section 9 of the 1952 Act relates to a vessel operated by a person directly engaged in either the wholesale or retail sale of fresh fish. If the section were in operation, the catches of such a vessel would have to be delivered for sale to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara or disposed of according to the directions of the Board. I consider that this may be a deterrent to private interests who could appropriately be expected to invest in fishing vessels and that such a deterrent is out of place in present circumstances: there is urgent need for expansion of the fishing fleet to provide supplies for processing stations etc. and it is desired to attract private capital for that purpose. The restriction is therefore being repealed by Section 5 of the Bill.

For the convenience of Deputies perhaps I might here refer to the new subsection which I propose to move on the Committee Stage. I am advised that, if it were decided to introduce the licensing of fishing vessels under the 1952 Act as it stands, the provisions would have to be applied to every vessel exceeding 35 feet over all in length. In practice it might be quite unnecessary at the outset to go to the trouble and expense of licensing boats up to say 50 or 60 feet. In other words, the vessels desired to be brought under control might be those exceeding say 60 or 70 feet. The object of the new subsection is to enable the licensing provisions to be applied to vessels exceeding whatever length would be considered appropriate in the prevailing circumstances. Boats between 35 feet and the prescribed length would then be exempt from licensing requirements and vessels above that length would have to be licensed. This flexibility is desirable for the convenience of the general body of fishermen.

I hope I have adequately explained Sections 2 to 5 and the new sub-section: Sections 1 and 6 are usual provisions for definitions and citation and do not call for comment. If Deputies desire further information on any other point arising from this measure I shall endeavour to help them.

I should now like to refer briefly to the general question of fish supplies in view of the protests recently made against landings by certain vessels. I think these protests are based on the mistaken belief that the market cannot satisfactorily absorb all the fish at present being landed. The evidence before me, however, points to the conclusion that the market is not sufficiently supplied to meet the demand for fish.

Comparing the first five months of the present year with the corresponding period last year, I find that landings of demersal fish increased by 10% while the total prices received by fishermen increased by 19%, landings of pelagic fish increased by 14% and the prices by 50% and the value of all varieties—demersal, pelagic and shell-fish—increased by 33%. Not only are these figures an indication of a buoyant market but I am also assured by wholesalers and retailers that they could readily find outlets for more fish if regular supplies were available. This buoyancy is well illustrated by the price received by the fishermen for whiting which is the most plentiful variety in their catch of demersal fish. In the last quarter of 1958 landings of whiting rose by some 78% over those for the same quarter in the previous year and, despite the increased quantity, the average price realised was about 9% higher. In the first five months of 1959 landings of whiting were over 25% higher than in the corresponding period last year and the average price rose by almost 16%.

In addition to the existing and the untapped market for fresh fish, very substantial quantities are needed for quick-freezing, canning, curing and fish meal production. There are quick-freeze plants and a fish meal factory which have never received more than a fraction of the supplies they can cope with; canneries are being erected. They are all confronted with a shortage of raw material. They would provide considerable employment and increase our exports if only they could procure supplies of fish.

Against this background, it seems to me to be quite unrealistic to speak of surplus landings at the present time. Scarce supplies and exorbitant prices would be a most short-sighted objective: they would lead to declining demand and be detrimental to the fishermen's interests in the long run. The industry can only be developed on the basis of increased landings and reasonable prices.

It is only natural that proprietors of factories of any type, faced with a chronic shortage of raw material, should seek the means of providing supplies: it would be deplorable to see valuable premises and plant lying idle. Accordingly, it should not be regarded as abnormal when a fish meal factory or a cannery with a very large capacity for fish acquires a limited number of fishing vessels to help in supplying its requirements. That there is scope for many more Irish vessels on the fishing grounds off our coast— including grounds outside our exclusive fishery limits—is clear when we realise that huge quantities of fish are taken from those waters by the fleets of other countries: according to international statistics our share of the total catch is scarcely 10%. There is, however, no question of an influx of large vessels to this country dissociated from factories and processing plants.

In referring to foreign capital invested in the fishing industry it should be borne in mind that foreign connections are most important in establishing export markets. I need hardly add that the investment of foreign capital in an Irish company does not preclude the company from owning an Irish registered vessel. All such vessels are, however, expected to employ Irish crews as soon as suitably trained personnel become available. I hope that increasing numbers of our fishermen will avail themselves of the training facilities provided for them.

Some growing pains may be unavoidable in the early stages of development of the fishing industry. The welfare of our fishermen will, however, be carefully safeguarded and their legitimate interests will be respected. As evidence of good faith I need scarcely remind the fishermen of the various schemes introduced for their benefit in the past twelve months —arrangements to train fishermen as skippers and boys as fishermen, grants and reduced interest for boats, cheaper ice at various ports, exploratory fishing vessel on the stocks, plans for harbour development, and so on.

The fears which some of the fishermen have recently been expressing are unfounded. Should the need arise, however, I shall not hesitate to exercise the powers at my disposal to regulate the landings of larger vessels.

If at any time it becomes necessary to introduce the licensing of vessels for sea-fishing, section 9 of the 1952 Act, when amended by sections 4 and 5 of the Bill and the new subsection to be inserted, should be quite effective for that purpose. In particular I would refer to the powers contained in sub-section (5) which is not affected by the amendments and reads as follows:—

A licence may be granted subject to such conditions as the Minister thinks fit, including restrictions on sea-fishing either generally or in regard to methods of sea-fishing in particular places and as to disposal of the catches and the Minister may from time to time vary any condition or impose new conditions.

In commending the Bill to the House I might repeat that the authorisation of further advances for An Bord Iascaigh Mhara is its main object. The opportunity is also taken to make more satisfactory arrangements for membership of the Board and to amend a section—which is not in operation—by removing some restrictions relating to licensing and catches of certain fishing vessels.

It is extremely hard to be patient—to use restrained language —when the Minister for Lands says that the main provision of this Bill is to increase the authorised capital from £1,000,000 to £3,000,000. That is just pure and undiluted eye-wash put in to fool the House. I was Minister for Fisheries for six years and I was never short of money. Any money I ever wanted to provide boats for the fishermen was forthcoming. There was never any question about it. I solemnly certify to Dáil Eireann that I was never 24 hours short of any money I asked of either Minister for Finance with whom I was concerned, Deputy McGilligan or Deputy Sweetman, and to say that this section raising the availability of money from £1,000,000 to £3,000,000 is the principal section of the Bill is cod and fraud and is designed to cover up the main intention of this Bill.

This is a fishmongers' Bill; it was brought in at the request of fishmongers and it is being passed on to this House—I am obliged to use this word—deliberately and fraudulently and the attempt being made by the Minister today is, in my opinion, an attempt to mislead the House. Section 2 has come as a shock. When I was Minister for Fisheries, there was no limit set to the finance available to me and I believe that was so when Deputy Tom Walsh was Minister for Fisheries during the Fianna Fáil administration and again, when I was Minister for Agriculture with Deputy Oliver Flanagan as Parliamentary Secretary in charge of Fisheries from 1954 to 1957. So far as I know, since the State was founded, there was never any difficulty about getting any money we wanted.

I remember giving a direction to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara to set every boatyard in Ireland at work and to search the boatyards in Scotland to see if additional boats could be found there in order to meet the demand for boats by the Irish fishermen. That is the measure of the financial stringency which the Department of Fisheries has ever experienced in the provision of money for the financing of boats or gear for fishermen who want to acquire boats of their own. This Bill has been brought in for the fishmongers. They have been at this for the past 15 years. They have been trying from as far back as when An Bord Iascaigh Mhara was established, to get it down and smash it, and incidentally, smash the boat-owning fishermen of our north-west, west, south-west and eastern shores and now they are going to succeed. To me, it is a perfect horror because I was reared among these people all my life to see their trust in an Irish administration being so shamelessly betrayed.

Last week, we were debating here a Bill designed in effect to wipe out the Undeveloped Areas Act which set a premium on establishing industries in the undeveloped areas. This is a Bill to wipe out the boat-owning fishermen of the west, south-west and north-west coasts of this country. Sometimes I feel that my capacity for saeva indignatio is waning, but thank God, this revives it. The people I am thinking of are the salt of the earth; they are not angels. The salt of the earth never are angels but they are an independent, self-supporting, energetic group of families living in a part of the country where there is no conceivable possibility of providing them with employment. These are people who catch fish, who build boats and who live in the heart of the Gaeltacht and if this means of livelihood is taken from them, a large proportion of the families at present self-supporting in the Gaeltacht will be rendered destitute and will simply clear out.

Now I must undertake the wearisome task of trying to remind the House of the background to this situation. When I think that only four short years ago we inaugurated the Gaeltacht boat scheme in order to persuade these Irish-speaking families of the west, the south-west and the north-west coasts to buy boats and persuaded them to sit down and learn how to acquire a master mariner's certificate and when I find now that the whole scheme is to be blown sky-high for the benefit of the fishmongers in Dublin and Cork, it makes me almost savage with indignation. The maddening thing is that this kind of thing can be done and the people can be fooled and it is not by any means easy to clarify the position for them, because it is so difficult to explain the whole background of the situation. What shocks me is that I know there are Deputies sitting opposite to me at this moment in the Fianna Fáil benches who know these facts as well as I do but I bet they will not say a word. They will sit there like dummies and stand over this, but if they do, they will be betraying their own people in a most shameless way.

What is the history of this? The price structure for demersal fish has been created for the purpose of preserving between 1,000 and 2,000 families who live in the Gaeltacht and indeed in Howth and Arklow and Dunmore and who get their living by taking boats to sea, catching fish and disposing of it on the domestic markets in Ireland. Let us go back to the very beginning. There are two categories of fish, pelagic fish, that is, fish which shoal and demersal fish, the fish which live on the bottom. Demersal fish are sole, turbot, haddock, plaice, whiting and fish of that kind. I often wonder why whiting is not put with the pelagic fish because it appears to shoal periodically. It is not; it is put with the demersal fish. That is what is known ordinarily as prime fish, wet fish or flat fish. Pelagic fish is herring, broadly speaking, and mackerel.

In this country, consumers of fish are paying approximately 30 per cent more for fish than people pay in England. There are two reasons to justify that. One is that all the demersal fish consumed in England is from three to six weeks old before it is put upon the fishmonger's slab, because demersal fish is brought into England by trawlers which go long distances out to the Greenland banks. They fish on the way out and put the fish into the holds in ice; they fish on the banks and they put their catch into the holds in ice and they fish on the way back. The greater part of their entire catch, by the time it reaches the fishmonger's slab in London or Birmingham or Manchester or Liverpool or wherever it is sold, is anything from three to six weeks old.

In Ireland, 90 per cent. of the fish consumed is consumed within 48 to 72 hours of its being caught, because our fishermen do not go out those great distances. What they catch today they sell to-morrow and it is delivered into Dublin the following day and eaten or consumed then or within 24 hours. Therefore, there is that consideration, that all the demersal fish consumed in this country is far fresher—but that in itself is, of course, a minor consideration.

The major consideration is that there is only one form of employment for those families, in the Gaeltacht primarily—but also in certain centres on our eastern coastline. It is important to bear in mind that the preservation of the fish market for these people results in their being given a reasonably high standard of living in that remote part of the country and in their being enabled to provide for the boat building community in Baltimore, in Galway, in Fanny's Bay and Killybegs, a most lucrative and highly skilled occupation, in the manufacture of those 50ft. to 60ft. boats with which we are at present equipping our owner-fishermen fleet.

Now, the fishmongers have always longed for the chance of starting a racket. It is in many ways like the wheat business. The wheat price structure was originally designed to enable small farmers in this country to grow wheat at a profit. We ended up with no small farmer growing wheat and wheat being grown by men growing anything from 100 to 1,000 acres of wheat, within the price structure designed for the 40 acre farm. What the fishmongers have always wanted was the authority and right to bring in with trawlers into the port of Dublin demersal fish and have the right to sell it under a price structure designed for people who were bringing it in in their own boats to the west coast of Ireland. More than that, what the fishmongers wanted was a licence to import fish from Grimsby and sell it here at prices related to a price structure designed to provide a living for a peculiarly vulnerable section of our community, whose special difficulties induced one Government after another in this country openly and frankly to ask the fish-consuming public here to help out in the solution of their social problem by paying 20 to 30 per cent. more for demersal fish caught by these fishermen than they would have to pay if they were given free access to Grimsby and the big fishing ports of Great Britain. This Bill is designed to permit the fishmongers to do that very thing.

I want to warn this House—and let there be no illusion about it—that if you establish a trade in trawlers here bringing in demersal fish, you cannot operate deep sea trawlers in this country fishing for demersal fish, without their bringing into the port of Dublin or the port of Cork quantities far in excess of the capacity of our domestic market to consume. The moment that happens, every ounce of fish captured by the boat-owning fishermen of the Gaeltacht and elsewhere will become unsaleable. It is all pure eyewash and fraud for the Minister to say that his heart is wrung by the fact that the domestic demand for fish is in excess of the existing capacity of the fishermen to supply. What if it is? Can we not go on doing what we have been doing for the past ten years—let An Bord Iascaigh Mhara bring in any fish that is wanted? One would really think that this was some revelation. That is what upsets me with the Minister for Lands. If he plants a tree, one would think he was the first man since Adam was a boy who ever did so. If he suddenly discovers that occasionally fish have to be brought in, primarily because of rough weather, over a week or ten days, it is a revelation comparable with the words of fire that appeared upon the rock when Moses was abroad.

Do we not all know that when we have stormy weather around this country and calm weather in Newfoundland, temporarily there is no fishing here and elsewhere there is plenty; and similarly when there is calm weather around Ireland and wild weather in Newfoundland, there is a famine in fish in Grimsby and abundant fish here. However, we have had no difficulties in dealing with that. If there was any shortage of fish, An Bord Iascaigh Mhara brought in the fish and we supplied any gap that weather conditions, or circumstances of that character which affected our relatively small boats, might create. As soon as the weather settled, the normal intake of fish continued and imports of fish stopped. Ad interim, imports of fish were distributed by public auction to whoever was short of fish; and any profit that accrued was held by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara and, I believe, put into a fund to promote the consumption of fish on the domestic market. That was a scheme worked out in order to avoid the appearance of allowing the profits of these temporary imports to react peculiarly in favour of any interest in the fishing industry and the idea of expanding domestic consumption of fish was that it conferred a favour on the fishmongers and fishermen and everyone else interested in the fish trade.

That was a rational approach. Surely it is manifest that you cannot ask the domestic consumer in this country to continue paying a price for fish, designed to create an equitable price structure for boat-owning fishermen in the Gaeltacht, if every wealthy fishmonger in Dublin and Cork, every fish retailer and wholesaler, can be allowed to import fish freely? Is it conceivably possible that Dáil Éireann is going to wipe out the property-owning fishermen of this country? I find that hard to believe; but I do assure you that, if this Bill passes in its present form, you are following the principle of the Undeveloped Areas legislation, and you are abandoning as hopeless the fishermen of the West of Ireland, the fishermen of Kerry, Galway, Mayo, Donegal and indeed of North County Dublin, Wexford and Waterford.

As property-owning fishermen, they will disappear. They may become the servants of trawler-owning companies and be offered wages for going to sea as trawlermen. God deliver them from such a fate as that. I would not want to see my worst enemy employed as a deckhand in an ocean-going trawler. It is about the most degraded form of human occupation that it is conceivable for any man to imagine. I would much sooner see my neighbour go and do penal servitude than go as a deckhand in a deep sea trawler. Any Deputy who has any familiarity with that kind of trade will agree with me. "I am informed," says the Minister "by the wholesalers and retailers that they could sell more fish." Is it not a very significant thing that when the Minister gives us that certificate, he does not go on to say:—"and it is confirmed by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara"?

Have they not written to the Press congratulating him?

What did the Deputy say?

Is it not a very strange thing that when the Minister gives us that certificate, he is indebted to the wholesale and retail fishmongers for his information about the state of the domestic fish market——

Everybody says we can sell more.

——and that he does not add: "That view is confirmed by An Bord Iascaigh Mhara"?

It is confirmed.

Does the Board recommend to the Minister that every fishmonger and so forth should be entitled to put a trawler to sea?

The Deputy is exaggerating the position so wildly that he had better wait for my reply.

Is every fishmonger to have a trawler at sea?

The Deputy did not listen to my speech.

I listened very carefully indeed. I remember, when I was Minister, that one warrior had three trawlers at sea. I told him he would have to "park" the trawlers.

The Deputy is disregarding the most important part of my Second Reading statement.

Look at the facts.

He is dismissing completely the licensing powers I possess to prevent any of these disasters.

Hell is paved with good intentions. If the fishmongers could push the Minister into introducing this Bill, once they have got his foot on the slippery slope, they will push him further. They were trying to push me for six years.

It was not the fishmongers; it was the industrialists.

It was the fishmongers. They staged a considerable campaign against me, ably supported, as usual, by Deputy P.J. Burke and Deputy Childers, as he then was. The Deputies wept oceans of crocodile tears for the poor fishmongers who were so badly treated. Now the fishmongers have them by the hasp; they have them on the run. I want to ask the members of the Fianna Fáil Party: do they want the property-owning fishermen of this country to continue enjoying a monopoly of the Irish fish market or not? That is a simple question. I do. This Party does. We justify the present price structure on the ground that it is designed for a monopoly of the domestic fish market by the boat-owning fishing community of the Gaeltacht, Waterford and North Dublin.

Do we want to put an end to that? I say this Bill is the first step to putting an end to that. I am certain it is wrong, but the greatest evil of it is that, if this is once done, no subsequent Minister can put it right. It was extremely difficult to rebuild the fishing fleets of our west coast. Immense sums of money were spent reequipping our fishermen and putting them to sea with tackle and boats suited to modern conditions. If that work is put in jeopardy now, no subsequent exertions by any Minister can repair the damage that will have been done. It is a source of amazement that any Minister for Fisheries could come here with these proposals.

Do Deputies know what the Minister said in his opening statement? "Some growing pains may be unavoidable." That is the modern version of the aphorism that you cannot have omelettes without breaking eggs. Is that a fair description? That is a lovely doctrine as long as you are not the egg. But I warn the House that all the eggs that will be broken for this omelette will be broken along the sea shores of this country, and once broken, they will never come together again. The tragedy is that only those Deputies who come from these areas realise the magnitude of the catastrophe this will be, if it is allowed to go through. A whole way of life will be wiped out. I believe it will be wiped out in the sacred cause of efficiency.

Let us have no ambiguity about this. You can get a much higher degree of automation and efficiency in the fish trade here by implementing this Bill. Let there be no doubt about it. I have told this House before, and I want to do so again, that I was approached from a variety of sources when I was Minister for Fisheries to authorise the establishment here of trawler companies who were prepared to set up large industrial concerns to operate trawlers from our territory. I turned them down with the full approval of the Irish Government, on the ground that it was our policy to preserve the domestic fish market for our own fishermen. I am a convinced free trader all my life, but I never looked on this as an economic problem. I looked upon it almost entirely as a social problem, in which we find ourselves in the dilemma that if you apply the full rule of economics to this, you wipe out a whole way of life in the certain knowledge that you have no conceivable substitute to offer to the families whose way of life is gone, except emigration. You wipe out the whole industry of boat building. I wish to God the Taoiseach had been here sooner, because this is something so horrifying that even his automated mind would blanch at the prospect of what his passion for industrial efficiency can do.

Not only will you wipe out the fishermen, but you will wipe out the boat building industry. Not only does this industry provide remunerative employment for the fellows working in it but it provides them with an industrial training which enables those of them desiring it to go abroad into very highly paid work in the ship-yards of Great Britain and America. It is astonishing the number of young fellows who got their training in Fanny's Bay—a small, little boatyard with a capacity of two boats in a remote part of north-west Donegal— and who walked into highly paid work in Devonport and Portsmounth when the notion took them to go abroad. To wipe all that out, without the slightest possibility of having any alternative employment for these people, is to me reckless and iniquitous folly.

I do not like to charge any man with bad faith but I think the Minister is being disingenuous to the point of deceiving the House when he refers to the question of the herring shoals. Most of the Deputies know nothing about the pelagic fish question, but the few of us who are interested in this and turn our minds to it know perfectly well that at the moment the whole world is agog by the fact that the pelagic fish seem to have disappeared from the North Sea and contemporaneously they have appeared off certain points of our coast where they have not been seen for generations. Even the least informed Deputy here is aware that the pelagic fish have arrived off the Wexford coast but the fact is that they have also arrived off the Donegal coast. It is something for which we have every reason to be grateful. I set up a fishmeal factory at Killybegs to deal with the surplus landings of herrings. When I started to build that factory, the problem was that we were throwing the herrings back into the sea because we could not sell them.

Debate adjourned.
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