I think, as the Taoiseach has said, that a case can be made for the segregation of certain portions of the work of the Department of Industry and Commerce into divisions. The real issue is whether or not this is the appropriate time, and whether the manner in which the Taoiseach has decided to do it is the appropriate way of achieving his purpose.
Everyone will agree that the Department of Industry and Commerce is too big, but I do not know, when a change of this kind involving the creation of a new Ministry is taking place, whether it would not have been an appropriate time to have some sort of reorganisation of other Departments with a view to bringing into the new Ministry—if we decide to create it—some of the functions of other Departments analogous to it which would involve no increase in the existing number of Ministers.
I gathered from what the Taoiseach has said that the really important functions which will be entrusted to the new Minister concern transport, aviation and power. Other matters were referred to by him in his speech, such as marine services and harbours, but I think the amount of administrative work involved in those would certainly not justfy the creation of a Department so that matters concerning marine services, merchant shipping and harbours could really be dealt with by a small section of the Department of Industry and Commerce. Therefore, I think I am correct in saying that the really essential functions which will be the concern of the new Minister are civil aviation, power and transport.
I hope the Taoiseach will not think I am being unduly critical when I say that in reference to these three headings their functions are really carried out by public boards or bodies of one kind or another. In connection with civil aviation, we have Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta. I hold the view that the less interference there is with these bodies the better the affairs of these concerns are carried on.
Similarly, in connection with power, the real problems of power are dealt with by the Electricity Supply Board. I know that the Department of Industry and Commerce has functions in relation to matters dealing with gas, but those functions are comparatively small and are, therefore, from that point of view, of minor importance, and merit only minor consideration.
The real functions this new Ministry will have will be in dealing with electricity. I hold the view strongly that the original conception of the Electricity Supply Board should be as closely adhered to as possible. The framers of that body, away back in 1927 when the Board was first established, had in mind that the Board would be almost independent of Government. The object of the scheme was to enable the Board to act as a business concern; they were not to be hampered in the exercise of their functions by any of the controls or any of the vexatious interferences that invariably occur when a Government Department intervenes in the running of a business concern.
The Electricity Supply Board has been an outstanding success. The members of that Board have, to their credit, I think, carried on in the way that the original framers of the scheme intended that they should carry on. They have acted as a business concern would act. Because they had that measure of independence, they have never come to be regarded in the way that a socialistic body in charge of electricity would be regarded. They are a business concern. They take the proper risks that a business concern would take in the handling of their day-to-day affairs and in dealing with the problems that arise from time to time. I am convinced that Board would never have been the success it is had there been undue interference in their day-to-day activities by any Government Department. I hope that the establishment of this new Ministry does not indicate any intention further to grasp authority, or power, or direction over the conduct of the affairs of the Electricity Supply Board.
The same remark applies in regard to the operations of Aer Lingus. We are very proud of the record of achievement and the business capacity of Aer Lingus. They have done a very good job in a very businesslike way. The less they are interfered with by Government, or Government Departments, the better it will be for civil aviation and the better it will be for the country ultimately.
I cannot unfortunately say as much about Coras Iompair Eireann. Different policies have been operated in regard to Coras Iompair Eireann, in regard to railway transport and public lorry transport and the problem of private transport by private lorries. Various policies have been implemented. The problems that subsist in relation to Coras Iompair Eireann are difficult problems. Sometimes they have aroused acute controversy. Coras Iompair Eireann was set up by an Act of this House. It is unfortunate, perhaps, that they are dependent upon grants from public moneys to enable them to carry on. Even though all Parties would, I am sure, wish to see Coras Iompair Eireann independent of the taxpayers' money and a self-sufficient unit, that is more in the nature of a pious hope rather than an aspiration capable of achievement. Obviously the old axiom operates, as it operates so acutely in Government Departments themselves: the person who gives the money wants to control the expenditure of the money. There is, therefore, a closer connection with, and a more complete control of, Coras Iompair Eireann— more interference, if you like—than there is in relation to the Electricity Supply Board and Aer Lingus. The aim ought to be to let Coras Iompair Eireann act on its own as a business concern and do their work, if possible, in the way in which a business should be run, without interference from Government officials.
When we were in office, I got the impression that there were far too many files. One file inevitably leads to the generation of another file and that, in turn, gives birth to still more files, with a consequential waste of time and paper on the part of a firm which should be operating as a business concern.
If it is the intention that there will be little, or no, interference on the part of the Government or Government Departments with either Aer Lingus or the Electricity Supply Board, then the work of the new Ministry should be very light indeed. When dealing with transport, air, and power this might be the appropriate moment—possibly the Taoiseach has considered the matter—to consider other functions akin to these three, namely, the functions of the Post Office. Would it be possible to amalgamate in this new Ministry the functions of the Post Office and the functions of Industry and Commerce which are analogous to the new Ministry, and have only one Minister for the two?
That would leave the problem of Radio Éireann, and possibly television. I have always held the view—whether it is right or not, I do not know; it is a personal view—that Radio Éireann is in alien surroundings in the Post Office and that the Post Office is not really the proper venue for it at all. We hoped at one time to prise loose Radio Éireann from the control that exists in the Post Office and from the rather peculiar set-up that exists at the moment; you have, under statute, a body which was supposed to be set up to give advice in connection with Radio Éireann; that body is ignored and a new non-statutory body is set up which is supposed to be the inspiring genius of Radio Éireann. Radio Éireann should be prised loose and should be allowed to operate on its own. That may furnish a headline for television if it is set up here.
Every Government with which I have had anything to do since 1922, including my own, all laid down the principle that the Post Office should be run as a business and should pay its way. If that is so, surely having it under the control of a Minister is not the proper way to run it. Some arrangement should be made by which certain functions of the Post Office— telephones, telegrams and so forth— would be integrated under an independent body on the lines of the Electricity Supply Board with the same relationship between it and the Government as exists between the Electricity Supply Board and the Government.
When the Gaeltacht Ministry was established we were severely criticised by the Taoiseach and his friends in Opposition here. They took the view that anything our Government did was bound to be wrong. It is, of course, the duty of an Opposition to oppose and say all the nasty things they can. But the Gaeltacht Ministry was established and the only directions I gave in so far as I could give directions—I did not have long enough to see they were put into effect—was that there were to be no files in the Department of the Gaeltacht. I am sorry to say that that direction has not been carried out. It is impossible to have a Government Department without files and without a multitude of files. If the Gaeltacht Department was to do anything either for the language or for the economics of the Gaeltacht, with which I was primarily concerned in connection with that Ministry, the less writing you had about it the better, and the more files you had the greater evidence there was that the Department was not doing its job, which should be down in the Gaeltacht looking after the economic and cultural interests of the people in the Gaeltacht.
There is no doubt that it is impossible for any human person, be he Minister, Taoiseach or anybody else, to prevent the growth of files in a Government Department. I have come to that conclusion although I did what I could, while I was in a position of authority, in connection with the Gaeltacht Ministry, to see that there were no files. But, files there will be and work there will be created in a Government Department.
I am sure the Taoiseach has read the new economic theory of the application of Parkinson's Law to Government Departments. When I was speaking on the appointment of the new Government when he became Taoiseach, I referred to that law. When I was speaking, the actual name applied to it eluded me for the moment. I thought of it, too late, when I sat down. It is Parkinson's Law. That means that once you set up even one or two people they create, generate, regenerate and recreate officials and work for themselves to do.
The Taoiseach did say that there was no necessity for additional staffs. The Taoiseach has been a long time connected with the affairs of Government and Government Departments and I am sure that he will have had the same experience as we had that, no matter how you bent your energies or how sincere your desires and resolution to prevent staff from growing and to cut down the number of staff and to utilise staff that appeared to be supernumerary or surplus, you could not do it and, no matter what you do in connection with this new Department, I am afraid it will create work for itself in order to justify itself and that there will be very much more staff than the Taoiseach anticipates. I am sure he genuinely anticipates, and sincerely thinks, that there will be no additional staff. No matter what he does and no matter what any of us does, staff will grow and there will be additional expense.
The Taoiseach did say when he was introducing this measure that, on the whole, the Press comments were favourable but I think that explicit and, certainly, implicit in all those comments was the solemn warning: "There is to be no more expense in connection with this Department." I know perfectly well that the Taoiseach may try to have no more expense but we shall have to face it that, once you set up a new Department of this kind, it will cost money. I agree entirely with what the Taoiseach has said, that it is undesirable for one Minister to be in charge of two Departments. It would be better to amalgamate Departments and put under the charge of Departments analogous functions rather than to have one Minister in charge of two Departments. There will be less work, less impetus to create new work in order to justify existing officials in their jobs.
These are the only comments that I wish to offer on the proposal. I think that it might be, as I say, a desirable opportunity for the Taoiseach to consider some of the matters I have mentioned, to bring some other functions into this and, above all, to make it as a clear declaration of policy, for which he will get from this side of the House and, certainly from me, full support, that there should be no interference with boards of such a character as the Electricity Supply Board and Aer Lingus, who are doing a business job, doing it efficiently and doing it very well. The less writing there is between the Department of Industry and Commerce or the new Department and them, the better it is for both the Department of Industry and Commerce or the new Department and the boards in question and the more efficiently the work will be done and the better the nation will be served.
