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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 1959

Vol. 176 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Bankers' Books Evidence (Amendment) Bill, 1959—Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The object of this Bill is to remedy defects in the Bankers' Books Evidence Act, 1879, to which attention has been drawn by the Irish Banks Standing Committee and in the report of the Committee on Company Law Reform. To come within the provisions of the Act of 1879, a bank must either comply with the definition of "bank" and "banker" in Section 9 of that Act or comply with the provisions of Section 11 of the Revenue Friendly Societies and National Debt Act, 1882.

To fulfil these requirements a bank must either have duly made a return to the Revenue Commissioners pursuant to the provisions of Section 22 of the Bankers (Ireland) Act, 1845, or else have duly furnished to the Registrar of Joint Stock Companies a list and summary as required by the second part of the Companies Act, 1862, with the addition of a statement showing the places where it carries on business. The list referred to is that required by Section 26 of the Companies Act, 1862, which has been repealed and re-enacted by Section 26 of the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, and is a list of members with a summary of the share capital and balance sheet.

Section 22 of the Bankers (Ireland) Act, 1845, expressly absolved the Bank of Ireland from the obligation of making a return thereunder and, since it is not a Joint Stock Company, it has always been excluded from the privileges of the Bankers' Books Evidence Act. This was never intended and is due to the fact that the special position of the Bank of Ireland was overlooked when the provisions of Section 9 of the Act of 1879 were being framed. The other banks, that is to say, those which were in existence in 1882 and are still in business were, to begin with, all entitled to the benefits of the Act of 1879 as they were in a position to fulfil one or other of the requirements of the statutory definition.

However, on the establishment of the State, doubts arose as to whether the provisions of the Banker's Books Evidence Act continued to apply to banks registered in England and Northern Ireland. These banks no longer furnish the requisite list and summary under the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, which has been repealed in England and Northern Ireland, and have been relieved by Subsection 6 of Section 42 of the Currency Act, 1927 from making the return required by Section 22 of the Bankers (Ireland) Act, 1845.

The advice I have got is that the Act does not now apply to such banks, including such well-known banks as the National Bank, the Northern Bank, the Provincial Bank of Ireland and the Ulster Bank. Thus, under the law as it stands, no fewer than five of the principal banks carrying on business here, including the Bank of Ireland, are outside the scope of the Bankers' Books Evidence Act.

It is primarily to remedy this defect that the present Bill has been introduced but advantage is being taken of the opportunity to simplify proofs by specifying by name the eight banks mentioned in the Third Schedule of the Central Bank Act, 1942, the Post Office Savings-Bank and the Trustee Savings-Banks. A new interpretation is being given to the expression "bankers' books" which takes account of modern methods of record keeping and of the fact that the old-fashioned books and ledgers have been largely dispensed with in the banking business and replaced by loose-leaf filing systems and cards. The statutory enactments which it is proposed to repeal will be rendered obsolete by the enactment of the Bill.

The Bankers' Books Evidence Act, 1879, was designed to relieve bankers from the great inconvenience of having to attend Court and bring with them the books in daily use in their business. To this extent, it is an Act for the relief of bankers. It is also an Act for the benefit of suitors since it enables copies of entries in a banker's book to be given in evidence and facilitates the procuring of such evidence by allowing any party to a legal proceeding to apply to the Court for permission to inspect and to take copies of such entries for the purpose of such proceeding. The object of the Bill is to make the Act work in the way it was intended to work and I commend it to the consideration of the House.

The Minister started off by saying that the purpose of the Bill was to remedy a defect in the 1879 Act. I do not think that is exactly true. The 1879 Act was entirely satisfactory, in itself. The object of the Bill is to make the 1879 Act work in our modern conditions, if one may use the term "modern" to apply not merely to 1959 but to the period since 1922. Of course, there is no objection from this side of the House to such a suggestion.

I am a little intrigued in relation to certain aspects of the drafting of the Bill, but they are purely matters of detail. The banks which are named in the Bill are, of course, the principal banks carrying on business here. They are some of the banks, I understand, which hold licences under the Central Bank Act, quite apart from being named in that Bill. I was, therefore, rather at a loss to understand why the Schedule has been drafted to name the banks which are named in sub-clause (a), and then sub-clause (b) refers to "any other person who is the holder of a licence issued under Section 47 of the Central Bank Act." It would appear to me that one clause would cover it and that it would apply to all those people who were licensed under the 1942 Act. Maybe the purpose, as these are the main banks, is to avoid the main banks having to produce the certificate which is covered by sub-clause (3). I do not know whether it is to ease proofs in evidence in that respect. If so, it is understandable.

It is, of course, right and proper also that advantage should be taken of the opportunity to take official statutory cognisance of the modern method of keeping books, with loose-leaf ledgers, micro-filming in certain circumstances, and so forth. I am frankly at a loss to know what is the meaning, in clause (b) of sub-clause (2), of the new Section 9, of "cover documents in manuscript." That is a new phrase to me and if the Minister can tell me what "cover documents in manuscript" means, I shall be grateful for his assistance.

The whole purpose of sub-clause (3) is to provide the modern Irish equivalent of the proof of what is a bank in substitution for the somewhat cumbersome provision in the original Act of 1879. In any event, it has no application here since the Central Bank Act was passed in 1942 and indeed, possibly, earlier, for all I know. I wonder can the Minister tell me why, in addition to the reference to the savings banks in the four big cities of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford, there is also reference to a savings bank in Monaghan. Perhaps Deputy Dillon could enlighten us in that respect.

Is there not a savings bank in Cork?

Yes, but Cork is a city and Monaghan is not. It is a town. What is the significance of that, that Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford are mentioned and then we go into the country district of Monaghan? Is there any particular significance? Is it that the people in that part of the country are hardheaded? Or is it a survival of a wider savings bank movement that once had its roots in the Six Counties? It does seem somewhat peculiar that we should have Monaghan alone of all the country areas, outside the big cities. I presume there must have been some reason for bringing Monaghan in but I am afraid my history is not sufficiently strong to be able to give the explanation. Perhaps the Minister is more steeped in the history of savings banks than I am.

I should like the Minister to make it quite clear that a document produced by any photographic or photostatic process does include a microfilm. I presume it does. I am not, however, an expert on photographic work and I do not know whether or not that is so. It would seem to me clearly desirable that it should be covered.

Deputy Sweetman has practically explained the situation as far as the Bill is concerned. We are naming these banks for the specific purpose of avoiding proof of the issue of a licence. I understand that suitors will be facilitated by this. We are bringing in other banks so that they will get the benefit of the Act. The Act does not apply to them at the moment. We are naming the trustee savings banks for the same reason.

I cannot say very much about the history of the banks to which the Deputy referred other than to say that we are trying to cover all these banks. Some of them are of a very minor type, but it is our endeavour now to cover the whole lot of them.

The Deputy referred to paragraph (b) of subsection (2) and to the use of the word "cover".

What is a cover document?

I think it simply means "to extend" to these documents.

I understand. It is a verb. I thought it had some reference to the cover of a book, and I thought it was a special document.

It could give that impression.

I misread it.

There are quite a number of concerns that are not banks in the ordinary sense but which carry licences. We hope to bring in all of these. In future, instead of some bankers having to bring in ledgers and other weighty documents, it will be possible for the suitor to go in and examine the books in the bank. It will also be possible for the court to accept the evidence produced as being prima facie evidence of the fact that the copies produced are part of the accounts of the bank concerned. The same law will apply to all banks.

I do not think there is anything further I need add or anything that necessitates further explanation. The Deputy seems to be entirely conversant with the matter.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill considered in Committee.
Sections 1 and 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

I checked up the Revenue Friendly Societies and National Debt Act of 1882 but I forgot to check Section 6 of the Savings Bank Act of 1893. Could Section 6 of that Act give cover to any savings bank other than the savings banks mentioned in paragraph (c) and paragraph (d)? Perhaps the Minister has that section?

Section 6 of the particular Act states that the fact that a bank is a post office savings bank for the purpose of the Bankers' Books Evidence Act of 1879 may be proved by a certificate purporting to be under the hand of the controller or assistant controller of the Post Office Savings Bank.

Is there any other savings bank, so far as the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is aware, other than the post office savings banks in Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Monaghan and Waterford, because, if there was one, then that section would apply to it.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 4 agreed to.
SCHEDULE.
Question proposed "That the Schedule be the Schedule to the Bill."

Has the Minister got a list of the persons who are holders of licences at the moment?

They are as follows: Holders of licences under Section 47 of the Central Bank Act, 1942— Bank of Ireland; Hibernian Bank, Ltd.; Munster and Leinster Bank, Ltd.; National Bank, Ltd; Northern Bank, Ltd.; Provincial Bank of Ireland, Ltd.; Royal Bank of Ireland, Ltd.; Ulster Bank, Ltd. There are then other commercial banks: Ansbacher and Co., Ltd.; Guinness and Mahon; Lombard Banking, Ltd.; National City Bank, Ltd.

There is another category—hire purchase finance companies: Bowmaker (Ireland), Ltd.; Irish Industrial Bank, Ltd.; Lombank, Ltd.; United Dominions Trust (Commercial), Ltd.; United Dominions Trust, Ltd.; Irish Buyway, Ltd. There are also the American Express Co., Inc.; Commercial Banking Co., Ltd.; Thos. Cook & Son, Ltd.; Thrift Co., Ltd.; and the Waterford Working Men's Penny Bank, Ltd. That is a list of 23 institutions.

This section, in fact, now covers not merely banking as the ordinary man in the street understands it but also hire purchase transactions as well?

Question put and agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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